Biden Cover-Up Continues, Gavin Newsom's Terrible Answer, and Trump's New Epstein Hoax Framing, with Rich Lowry | Ep. 1109

25:54He's still going to win. So you need to convince the average Democrat that this guy is going to make you lose your job. He's going to make your streets unsafe. and that he's unacceptable. And if you manage to do that, it's doable. I'm not sure it's likelier than not, but it's doable. Then one of them could surge, whether it's Cuomo or Adams, whoever's in second place, and the others fall away. So I think there's too much focus. One, Cuomo thinks he's going to make himself likable by just going out and glad-handing people in the streets. I don't think that's going to happen. And two, there has to be some sort of deal.

26:27Don't touch me. The focus has to be bringing Mamdani's ratings down, making him radioactive, and then maybe a Vista opens up where something's possible where New York City can dodge this bullet. But I wouldn't bet on it. I really think it's crazy not to be hitting Mamdani over the head every day with the law and order stuff. He 100 percent was for defund the police. When other Democrats said, when we say defund the police, we don't really mean defund the police. We mean transfer some money over to more social services type systems that could intervene in other matters. And he said, no, we mean defund the police.

27:07And then as we get to know him better, clips keep resurfacing because in addition to being a sex pest and a killer of elderly people, Andrew Cuomo has a very, very shitty oppo research team that didn't find any of this stuff when he was running against him in the primary. So here comes the following soundbite from 2020, where Mamdani seemed to be very, very anti-cop and very, very pro some other third force on domestic violence incidents. Take a listen here to Salt 9. Police do not create safety. For many, many people across this city and this state, police actually create and amplify violence.

27:46violence. And it is very important to speak about that reality that many people have, because it pushes up against the conventional understanding of police who are seen to be people who come to resolve violence. But I mean, you just look at the history of the NYPD, and you see that we have invested in a system that functions in many ways to punish poor black and brown people across this city and across the state, frankly, across this country. And there are so many responsibilities we have given to police that frankly, should have nothing to do with their departments. A homeless person is on a train, they do not need a stranger with a gun to come and resolve that situation.

28:29You know, if somebody is jaywalking, if somebody is surviving, you know, going through domestic violence, if there are so many different, different situations that would be far better handled by people trained to deal with those specific situations as opposed to an individual with a gun. So what Nicole Brown Simpson really needed, Rich, was for some social worker to step in and try to explain to OJ that it's not nice to nearly decapitate your ex-wife, or maybe somebody who would talk to him about centering his blackness. that could have really brought out, you know, some softer side of OJ and Mom Dami's world.

29:10That's what they do. This is absolutely absurd. So women who are getting the shit kicked out of them by their husbands now are going to have some sweet little social worker show up with her like knitted sweater to try to talk the husband down off the ledge in Mom Dami's New York. Yeah, totally preposterous. One, you're right about Cuomo's oppo research in the primary. There's a video like this literally every single day popping on X. Where were they during the primary campaign? And ordinary Democrats aren't anti-cop. The activists and the ideologues and the progressive element of the Democratic Party, like Mamdami, are anti-cop.

29:46But Eric Adams won the Democratic primary four years ago on a pro-police platform, a pro-law and order platform. And people in dangerous neighborhoods do not want the social worker showing up. They want the guy with a gun on his hip, and they want more of them, and they want he or she to get there faster than they do now. So this is absolutely – you're absolutely right. This is a huge opening, and Cuomo or Adams or whoever wants to have some chance of stopping this guy needs to just hammer it. Especially because it is the communities of color, especially those in the more working class and poor neighborhoods of New York, who need cops more than anyone.

30:27They need cops. And only people who come from a very privileged background, like Momdani, don't understand that. Yeah. Probably never needed a police officer to help resolve a situation that was dangerous or potentially dangerous in his life. And probably never will. Right. But that's not the lived experience of a lot of New Yorkers. And the crime that we read about in the New York Post and elsewhere that's so harrowing, it's generally quite limited in several very specific neighborhoods. So what you want to do is flood those places with cops and go specifically after the gang members and the people have records you know are dangerous, and you can make the city a lot safer.

31:10Rudy Giuliani proved this back in his day. And it was popular. No one wants to get shot. No one wants to be fearful of getting shot. No one wants to get harassed on the subways. And the beginning of the answer, at least in terms of public policy terms, are more cops and better cops. My brother, Paul, was a lifelong cop, made it to lieutenant in Albany, New York. He's retired now. And do you know how many domestic violence calls he had to go out on and actually saved women's lives? This is in inner city Albany. These women are terrified and grateful to see the police show up. This is from the Free Beacon on what's happening in New York City in particular.

31:50They write, NYPD recorded more than 110 ,000 domestic violence incidents in the city during just 2024. More than 110 ,000 were someone called the cops. The four worst precincts for domestic violence, with more than 3 ,000 recorded incidents each, were located in poor and heavily minority districts around East New York, Little Haiti, the North Bronx, the South Bronx. Listen to this. Former NYPD homicide detective Pete Panuccio, who spent four decades with the department and responded to hundreds of domestic violence incidents, called a lack of police involvement, quote, absolutely insane. Homicide rates will increase.

32:35Women, he writes, will be pulverized. Women will be pulverized and homicide rates will increase under Mom Donnie. That should be in ads that circulate nonstop in New York for these Upper West Side white liberal women in their Lululemons who want to feel good about themselves by electing a communist and will never have to worry about being one of the ones pulverized as a result of no cops. Yeah, absolutely. So we all fear random crime, but the greatest threat to a lot of people are people you know, especially to women, right? It's the abusive spouse. It's the abusive boyfriend. It's someone you split up from and is stalking you.

33:18And you need law and order and the authorities to protect you from that person. And Mom Domini just isn't into this as an ideological matter. He doesn't care about the evidence. The other thing that just occurred to me, sorry to interrupt you, is 99 % of the social workers are female. They're all female. They just are. Women have tons of empathy. Women are naturally attracted to that line of work. And a lot of them are middle-aged or older. And I wouldn't say in my experience, having met with a lot of them over the course of my career, that they tend to be like the super fit. So you're going to send these like middle-aged women into these dangerous neighborhoods where a man is beating the hell out of his wife and you're going to have her try to stop it.

34:06Take a guess what's going to happen. Okay. Because unlike mom, Donnie, I've actually interviewed countless numbers of domestic violence victims and it can happen across sociological spectrum. It can happen to rich women. It can happen to poor women, but in every case it's happening at the hands of a man who's extremely controlling and extremely dangerous and could not be talked off the ledge by the person he's supposed to love any more than anyone else in the world. And the notion that you could send some third party, likely female, into that situation to diffuse it is absolutely insane. The only person who can diffuse it is a guy with a gun and a badge who can put that guy behind bars.

34:48And even then, sometimes they don't stop. Yeah. And sometimes though, right, all you need is the big guy with the gun to show up and that diffuses the situation. But these wouldn't be situations if the party who is bigger and stronger is not in a rage, right? Perhaps a violent rage, perhaps even a homicidal rage. And that's just not, that's not the context for social work, right? If you need marriage counseling, you need advice on why your kid's fluent and doesn't like going to school, whatever, there is a reason to have social workers. I don't have anything against all social workers. My mom was in social work.

35:22There's obviously a place for it, but she wasn't showing up in violent households at the cusp of what might perhaps be a violent event. That's crazy. And by the way, you know, hello, P. Diddy's defense team, Zoran Mamdani. They're the ones who just made this argument that, like, domestic violence is different than criminality. Beating the daylights out of your wife is criminal. You do need a cop. Of course. It is not like jaywalking, you absolute fool. I can't believe good friends of mine are going to be living in this city. Thank God we got out and moved to Connecticut and in danger now at the hands of this lunatic.

36:03Forget the economics of his policies, which I do also want to hit on here. Before I move on to why our friend Andrew Schultz, comedian, just great guy, loves Mom Donnie, and I think it's more the economic policies. I think Andrew's more Democrat-leaning anyway, but meandered over to the Trump field in the last election like a lot of even lefties did. I do want to spend one more minute on sort of identity, the obsession with identity over on Team Blue, because there was an extraordinary moment on CNN with Anna Navarro, who's constantly making inappropriate race comments, like racist comments. And they're having a debate over Trump's immigration policies and the ice raids and how he's rounding up people.

36:44And now there's a federal district court judge who said you can't take into account whether a person speaking Spanish or or is at a day labor camp. You can't like you can't consider any of these things when you're trying to find people who are here illegally. Anyway, they're having a debate about this. And Brad Palumbo is on the set. He's the co-founder of something called Based Politics. He happens to be a white man. And the following extraordinary exchange took place. Take a listen. SOT 8. Millions of people out there protesting in small cities and big cities, from small protests and huge protests, defying the fear, defying the reign of terror and retribution that Donald Trump is trying to impose on America.

37:26I think you're definitely being hyperbolic. You talk about a reign of terror. When the doomsday alarm from Democrats or from media critics is always at a 10, it doesn't hit the same. I want to respond to you saying that I was hyperbolic when I talked about a reign of terror. That is hyperbolic. No, it might be hyperbolic for you as a white man. Oh, okay. It's certainly not hyperbolic for me as a Latino. No, I'm not. Being a white man as an insult? When you invoke it to dismiss my... Being a white man as an insult? When you invoke it... Are you? But I just want to make a point that, Brad, all she's saying is that her view of the situation is different from yours.

38:01I don't think that's an insult. She basically said, I'm wrong because I'm a white man. No, no, she just said, she said, I see it differently from you, which is not an insult. It's not, and it's also not a racial insult. It's also not an insult. Unbelievable. Unbelievable it was said. And then Abby Phillip allowed it and defended it. Incredible, Rich. What a dereliction of duty as the anchor, first of all. And he was 100 % right to call her out. I don't know if it matters, but Brad also happens to be gay. So he checks some minority boxes. Abby Phillip should be interested in defending him to the extent it was necessary, though he was raising exactly the right point.

38:34Now, how dare she allow that to happen on her set? And how dare they keep booking Anna Navarro, whose bread and butter is comments like this? Yeah, so where to start on this? There's so much to it. One, the idea of a reign of terror is obviously absurd, right? But anyone can have their opinion about immigration enforcement. Anyone with any color, any creed, any gender should be able to have an opinion about immigration enforcement. And he was challenging hers. And her argument basically was that this was her view, and she has unique insight into it as a brown person. She refers to the brown community.

39:07What is the brown community? What's that? There's no such thing as a brown community. There's no such thing as a white community. And they're so into this idea of communities that don't exist. There's no LGBTQ plus community. The harshest people, some of the harshest critiques I've heard of lesbians have been by gay men, you know, and a lot of gay and lesbian people don't like the whole trans thing. And even if they're all on board, you know, that part elements of that agenda, some of them are Republicans, some of them are Democrats, some of them are Catholics, some of them are, There's no community.

39:37They don't live all in one big neighborhood and get together for block parties. It's absurd. And if you just turn it around and would have and Brad had had rejoined her. Well, you just think that about the reign of terror because you're a Latina, right? He would have been escorted from the show, escorted out of the building and never heard from again on CNN. And by the way, not for nothing, but even if she wanted to make this argument about how most of the people who are getting rounded up happen to have brown skin. Most of them are also male. So how does his maleness disqualify him from not saying this is a reign of terror?

40:13That's their knee jerk. You lose your right to speak in the world of Ana Navarro if you are a white male, because you're a sin. Your existence is a sin. You were born with the sin. You can't recover from the sin. You shouldn't even be at the table commenting to her. And frankly, I think Abby Phillip shares that view. She's been, for the first couple of years she was on the air, she, she hid what's obviously her racism, but as she gets, you know, out there more and more and more, it's coming out more frequently. She's a problem for CNN. I, it's very clear. Okay. I find, I find a show unwashable, but, but everyone ends up talking about the clips.

40:51It's only usually because of Scott Jennings, because he's great. Um, and then occasionally just absolute lunacy, like we just saw there, but no one's watching it. Like, Hey, I'm really learning something. This is actually a really good program. Not at all. You know, it's like a hate watch and i like wtf um back on the subject of mom donnie i i want to show you this clip from uh andrew schultz because it hits on a couple of things that i want to talk to you about politically it's satan the only party right now that to me seems america first is the democrat socialist party yep bernie is america first mom donnie and all his ideas that he will not be able to execute, and I frankly think many of them are not good ideas.

41:35But he is no doubt New York first. The policies seem to want to help people here. That's what I care about. If MAGA wants to take this America first thing back, they got to start looking out for America, and it doesn't seem like they're doing it. Lying to Americans is not America first. There is one lie, which is Epstein did not have a blackmail ring on all these very influential people. And by saying that that didn't happen, you have to tell a lot of other little lies. Every one of them just pulls a little piece of thread away from the family. And we're starting to see right through right now.

42:05And it's just embarrassing.

42:09It's very interesting. So he's, that's a guy who I'm going to have interviewed him many times. I think he, I think he's an independent, but though he's been a registered Democrat for most of his life, he comes from a family of Democrats, though he was supportive of Trump and voted Trump this last election, who now you hear him, he's attracted by some of the things that Momdani is saying. And I've heard Andrew and others like him politically talk about that debate in New York City where the question by the moderator was, which country would you visit first as New York City mayor? And they all said Israel.

42:41And Momdani said, I'm not really interested in visiting any country. I'm going to stay in New York, which was a great answer. I have to say. That was the answer, yeah. But there is a belief in some circles that you're not electable Democrat or Republican unless you do a genuflection toward Israel and you send all the right signals on how you're going to be pro-Israel and Mamdani didn't do it. I mean, I think there are reasons for that. But separate and apart from those reasons, it was the right answer to say, I'm the mayor of New York. Why are you asking me about going to travel to foreign countries?

43:10So I think all that's playing in. I don't have a foreign policy. Yeah, so all that's playing in on his like, I'm looking at that guy. And then on top of it comes the Epstein scandal, whatever you want to call it, which is affecting Trump supporters both in that middle ground and on the diehard right too within the core MAGA movement. I would say like the more national review types of the Republican Party have not been big into the Epstein scandal. We haven't covered it that much here on the Megyn Kelly show over the past six years. We've been covering it more this past couple of, what, 10 days because it became a political scandal.

43:45But there is a very loud piece of MAGA right now that is really outraged over how this is being handled. And we'll get to what Trump said this morning after you react to those points. Yeah. So on the clip, one, when he talks about Bernie Sanders being America first, there was a time when Bernie was kind of an American first socialist. He had this famous exchange with Ezra Klein. I don't know, maybe it was 10 years ago now, the New York Times, where Klein's like, you like poor people, right? So yeah, I do. You want to help poor people, right? Yeah, I do. So then what we should do is let in all these poor people from other countries in the United States who are really poor, and then they'll be better off when they're here.

44:23But he's like, no, no, no, I don't favor that. That'd be crazy. That hurt America. I'm about helping American working people. And the reaction on the left was such that Bernie backed off. Now he's kind of a cosmopolitan socialist when he used to be kind of a nationalistic socialist. And on Momdomini, I will say this about him. The theme of affordability is not inherently a socialist theme and it was an excellent theme because New York City is insanely expensive and is getting more so all the time. I think rents on average went up like 16 % last year. That's crazy. The problem is his answers are wrong, right?

45:01And you have these problems in New York because it's already embraced socialistic policies and he's coming in saying, well, we got these problems because of socialism and what we need is more socialism, which doesn't make sense. It'll be a disaster. And I do think it's interesting how, you know, to pick up the Epstein thing, this is now being picked up, you know, not just by influencers, voices like that, but by the mainstream media and by Democrats. At the same time, it's not going away on the right, but you have, you know, Charlie Kirk saying, I'm just not going to talk about it anymore. So it wouldn't shock me if, you know, three weeks from now, it's kind of diminished more on the right and picked up more from those other sources.

45:43So Trump gets out there. I don't actually know what Trump is doing with his messaging because last night I watched the Bret Baier, the top of his show, and he ran a long report on Epstein and the scandal and the MAGA infighting. And he ran a soundbite of Trump last night, which we have, where he's saying we I think we have it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's in Sat One where he says he he's fine with having Pam Bondi release more materials that she deems releasable. Here it is. Sat One. Your daughter-in-law said that there should be transparency in the Epstein case. Do you agree with her, sir? The attorney general has handled that very well.

46:30She is she's really done a very good job. And I think that when you look at it, you'll understand that. I would like to see that also. But I think the attorney general, the credibility is very important. And you want credible evidence for something like that. And I think the attorney general has handled it very well. OK, that wasn't on there, but he does say the credible part. And here's that. This is later that day. So at six. Mr. President, I know you've urged people to move on, but I'm curious, why do you think your supporters in particular have been so interested in the Epstein story and so upset about how it's been handled?

47:08I don't understand why they would be so interested. He's dead for a long time. He was never a big factor in terms of life. I don't understand what the interest or what the fascination is. I really don't. And the credible information has been given. Don't forget, we went through years of the Mueller witch hunt and all of the different things, the Steele dossier, which was all fake. All that information was fake. But I don't understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody. It's pretty boring stuff. It's sorted, but it's boring. And I don't understand why it keeps going. I think really only pretty bad people, including fake news, want to keep something like that going.

47:55But credible information, let them give it. Anything that's credible, I would say let them have it. Okay. So last night, yesterday, that was late Tuesday. Let's let them have it. If there's more credible information, she can release it. Now, he was full of insults for the people who are still interested in Epstein. But then this morning, He sends out a truth social that was just a barn burner of a post that reads in part – okay, hold on. Let me get it here. It's long. I'm not going to read the whole thing. First, it starts off with how the radical left Democrats have hit pay dirt again, just like with the fake and fully discredited steel dossier, the lying 51 intelligence agents, the laptop from hell, blah, blah, blah.

48:40A totally fake and make up story used in order to hide crooked Hillary Clinton's big loss in the 2016 presidential election. These scams and hoaxes are all the Democrats are good at. It's all they have. Okay, and then they say, he says, their new scam is what we will forever call the Jeffrey Epstein hoax, the Democrats' new scam. I mean, this is more of a Republican issue. The Democrats are now piling on. But he says this is a Democrat news scam in what we will forever call the Jeffrey Epstein hoax. And my past, in all caps, supporters have bought into this bullshit, quoting here, hook, line, and sinker.

49:17They haven't learned their lesson and probably never will. even after being conned by the lunatic left for eight long years. I've had more success in six months than perhaps any president in our country's history. And all these people want to talk about with strong prodding by the fake news and the success-starved Dems is the Jeffrey Epstein hoax. Let these weaklings continue forward and do the Democrats' work. Don't even think about talking of our incredible and unprecedented success because I don't want their support anymore. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Make America great again.

49:49And so what we've seen in the past couple of days is Trump has managed to call large portions of the MAGA base that are still interested in Epstein and want answers, selfish, weaklings. He doesn't want their support and that they're believing in a Democrat-created hoax. Now, there's all sorts of substantive responses to that on the Epstein merits, but I'm not interested in that for now. I'm interested in the politics of it, Rich. Yeah. So he's in the phase he often is in when he's in the midst of these controversies. I think spaghetti against the wall phase and then he'll see what sticks and then go with that.

50:26But I don't think it's a great idea to make the connection to the Russia hoax, which was about him. So this kind of implies that this also is about him. I don't think it really is. is. And the idea that he doesn't know where this is coming from, and it was all created by Democrats, this has been more of a matter of interest for the right, including the highest officials in his Justice Department, right? Pam Bondi talked about it. Kash Patel talked about it. Bongino talked about it. Now, Patel and Bongino, yeah, I give them a little leeway because, you Bongino was a podcaster, and Patel was kind of a figure.

51:07They didn't talk about it the same way once they were in office. It's Pam Bondi, who is a sitting attorney general of the United States, handed out these ridiculous, bogus binders and a stupid act of pandering. These poor influencers have held them up like they finally had the holy tablets. Of course, when they look through it, they realize it's all old or redacted and completely worthless and then seem to suggest she's wiggled out, tries to wiggle out of it, but seem to suggest she had a client list on her desk, on her desk. And then she – everyone wants it to go away when she turns around a month or two later and says, oh, forget it.

51:46So I understand the questions about this. And as you put it, she either was lying then when she said that had the client list or is lying now when she says there's no client list. I take the first option. I think it was a stupid act of pandering, and she got wrapped around the axle on this thing. But she should – tomorrow, she should do a press conference, and it should be a till the last dog die kind of press conference. everyone can come in we're credentialing everyone i don't know i don't care who you are what outlet you you're from and i'll answer every single question about it and that this is why the conclusion that we've come to and if there are other things that can be released as you know and as i've discussed on the show you know the epstein files makes it sound as it's like a file cabinet in the corner of her office and she has one of those little file cabinet keys and she can open it and open it and take out the 10 manila folders with the the epstein files what is it's It's a vast investigative record.

52:47And surely more can be released than has been released. Surely there's some things, you know, grand jury secrecy and the rest that should stay, shouldn't be disclosed. But surely there's more to disclose. You know more about it than I do since I'm a National Review type. But we haven't seen the autopsy, right? Have we seen the actual report on why they've concluded it was a suicide? We've heard from the medical examiner for sure. I'm very well aware of what she found and why she found it. But I don't know that we have the actual paper. could be and I just haven't seen it. You know, why not? Here's the problem.

53:20Like it, it is, there's a middle ground here that I keep trying to remind people of, you know, I don't believe that there's a massive pedophile ring that's being covered up though. You know, stranger things have happened. Um, I don't believe Trump did anything terrible that's in there that he's trying to hide though. It is possible that somebody made some scurrilous allegations against him because that's happened on the record, you outside of the Epstein case. So would I be shocked if somebody did it? No, I wouldn't. I believe though that there might be some names in there who are politically connected to Team Blue and Team Red and neither side has a great interest in sort of hanging those people out to dry.

53:56And those people would be the kind of people making calls being like, would really appreciate it if you didn't do this. And maybe their donor, the donors are important enough that they're listening. That's a possibility. I'm just throwing that out there. But I think the way this needs to be handled like any scandal, any potential scandal is you get out early, you get out loudly, you open up all the coffers and say, come on in, take a look. This is everything we know. You know, this is everything we're going to give you because now we're in a situation where even if Pam Bondi had to be fair to the administration, even if she does come on, I've asked her for an interview to come on this show or gives a presser or cash and Dan join her.

54:36even if that happens, people who are really dug in on this are probably always at this point going to say, I don't believe it. You know, once you're dug in on something, it's almost unwinnable for Trump at this point. Yeah. Someone's reminded me of the old joke a little while ago. Guy dies, goes to heavens at the pearly gates. God said, you know, ask me any questions, you know, happy to answer, answer anything now. He's like, what happened with the Kennedy assassination? and God says, Lee Harvey Oswald did it. I didn't know it went this high up, the conspiracy is this far reaching. So there are some people that that's where they are on this and there's going to be no way to satisfy them.

55:16Plus, look, it's how did he get his money? I don't think we'll ever know, right? And we're denied the sense of closure by his death in jail. I think he committed suicide, but they should try to be as disclosive as they reasonably can without breaking any rules and disclosing things that our system says should be secret and upfront about it. And I think part of the problem here, frankly, is she is. But what happens now, Rich? Yeah, go ahead. Finish your point. I was going to say, I think Bondi is his weakest major cabinet pick. I understand why he wants her there. She's confirmed, right? It's hard to get someone confirmed.

55:57I'm sure he likes her, and he'll do whatever he wants basically. so you know so all good as far as he's concerned but i don't think this press conference hypothetical press conference i just meant i don't think she can do it i don't think she'd pull it off very well i think there'd be more questions um left on you know more questions afterwards than than than you were when you began she just she's handed this totally incompetently because i i'm not sure she's that competent so look i think they're going to release more i think they have to i think transparency is like the go-to for everyone here in this kind of situation mike johnson was saying release everything with Benny Johnson the other day.

56:31So I think they'll release more, but I don't think they're ever going to satisfy a lot of people. Because one, I don't think they can be satisfied, and I'm not sure how much of the total record can be released. Here is Speaker Johnson on Benny's show yesterday, SOT 7. It's a very delicate subject, but we should put everything out there and let the people decide it. I mean, the White House and the White House team are privy to facts that I don't know. I mean, this isn't my lane. I haven't been involved in that. But I agree with the sentiment that we need to put it out there. And, you know, Pam Bondi, I don't know when she originally made the statement.

57:10I think she was talking about documents. As I understood that they were on her desk. I don't know that she was specific about a list or whatever. But she needs to come forward and explain that to everybody. I like Pam. I mean, I think she's done a good job. We need the DOJ focusing on the major priorities. So let's get this thing resolved. Yeah, just put it in their rear view. I think that's what many and probably most Republicans would very much like, including yours truly. Just put it in their rear view. Just put it to bed. Who wants to spend the next three and a half years obsessing over Jeffrey Epstein?

57:40Not me. And so what they really need to do now is figure out how to put it to bed. I do think a Pam Bondy, maybe a Folden, Todd Blanche. He could probably do it. The two of them together. Maybe you bring over a Cash or a Dan. So it's like United Front and Cormaga has somebody there who they really do trust. I don't know. But what President Trump is doing is trying to – he understands strength and he understands how to completely overpower people. And he's using those powers to try to stop the conversation. But I think he's also risking some alienation of some key supporters. We kicked it off of that Andrew Schultz soundbite.

58:17But you can't – I don't think it's a good idea even for Trump to look at his supporters and say you're selfish and you're weakly. And I don't want your support if you're so interested in this. Overly dismissive, right? But this is his MO, right? It's a bulldozer all the time, and usually it's worked out for him. So you understand him going there and also understand the frustration. I mean this has been a historic month, a historic month in terms of his presidency, whatever – what he's been able to get done. And to have, after all this stuff has happened, to be talking about this has to be immensely.

58:53Who does he have to thank for that? Pam Bondi, who put out that stupid memo. Like, why didn't she? I'm with you. Why did it have to come out now? Why didn't she? Why? Like, what was the rush to get that out? Yeah. Like, this two Sundays ago. I don't get it. She did step on a lot of his big accomplishments. I just don't think Pam Bondi is going to recover from this very easily. She needs to save herself by some sort of a massive sit down or presser. Although Trump still is in her corner, that's very clear. Here he is moments ago in the Oval. Watch. I really think that she's done very good. She says, I gave you all the credible information.

59:29And if she finds any more credible information, she'll give that too. What more can she do than that? I mean, honestly, what more can she do? And we do have bigger problems. You know, we have problems with millions of illegal people that came in here and they're killers and murderers. We have 11 ,888 murderers that were allowed into our country by Biden. Sleepy Joe Biden. Stupid Joe Biden.

59:56OK, she's got the president in her corner, but I do think she's hurting him now. Now, like she's crossed over into political liability and that has to be rectified someplace. Put apart whether you're into Epstein or you're not. Put that to the side. We're just talking politics here. she's she's been dinged up severely and she's leading him to get you right he's got it he's got it which i don't think any of his supporters want to see right yeah yeah nobody wants to see but why doesn't he just let her twist in the wind and put her out there to press her and then he's kind of washed his hands of it yeah the problem is if i'm right the presser wouldn't go well and who knows, maybe I'm wrong and then very wrong before.

1:00:41There's just more fuel on the fire. So the problem is maybe that she messed it up and she herself might not be capable of fixing it. So she is just twisting out there in the wind. Well, they're banking on enough time passing that it'll go away. However, Laura Trump said two nights ago that they are going to release more. You heard Trump say Bondi will release more to the extent she can. It's not confidential. So right now they're both saying we'll release more and also fuck off. So that's where we are. We've been through this like a hundred times where there's some controversy, there's some fix that Trump is in.

1:01:21It's like impossible to see how he gets out of it or how it's going to end. And it seems like it's going to be a long lasting. Then it always ends and he always gets out of it. This is a little different, right? Because obviously it's a base pushing it rather than CBS News or whatever. but but there seems an expiration date on every trump controversy no matter what yeah i think that's right i just think like trump is doing too many great things for this to remain the dominant news headline and that's appropriate i mean there's always going to be curiosity with it it's now going to be like a jfk you know mystery that people always harken back to the only question is when does this acute chapter of pain close and end and everybody in the news at least moves on so that we can start talking about other things i think you know we're probably already getting there.

1:02:02But Trump could certainly hurry that along and stop the bleeding by by putting her out there or doing something to be a little bit more transparent, not notwithstanding the fact that you'll always have people who will say not enough. I still don't believe. But I think there's a huge faction that actually would accept that. We'll see. All right. I want to ask you about Ukraine and Trump, because it's pretty remarkable what what's going on right now. Trump, when he was running for office, said, I'll get that war settled in a day. He wasn't able to get that war settled in a day. He later said I was being facetious, obviously, but he genuinely wants it to stop.

1:02:33I mean, I truly think Trump loathes war in a uniquely special way. And now he's sort of reopened the spigot of arms to Ukraine via NATO by like providing them to NATO and then they'll provide them to Ukraine, which is a little less exposure for the United States and rather than as just being us versus another nuclear power. And I think, like I was giving this speech out here in Vail and a lot of Republicans there, and somebody was saying, has he betrayed us? Like, does he not understand that the base elected him to be, you know, to not keep funding Ukraine, to not keep funding our own forever wars or somebody else's, like, what's he doing?

1:03:18And my own thought on it, Rich, was, you know, Trump really gave Putin every benefit of the doubt. he tried his typical like say nice things about your enemies and mean things about your friends you know and it worked to a great extent on the tariffs and other ways but Putin just can't be charmed and slowly but surely Trump came to his own realization which is what needed to happen on Putin Trump no longer trusts him I don't think he likes him I think he feels like he Putin was trying to play him and Trump has now seen that for himself and so I do think we're at a new day now where he's got he's always had like one foot in the more isolationist jd vans tucker carlson camp and one foot in the more neo connie camp and i think maybe he's got like a couple toes from that first camp now also over it the balance is moving to yeah something that i think you know the more traditional wing of the party would like yeah i agree on all points it's very very important that person to ask you that question never said he was going to cut off Ukraine.

1:04:21He never did. A lot of people around him said it. A lot of people who wanted to cut off Ukraine ended up in high-level positions, but he never said it himself. And I was fairly, I'm a Ukraine hawk, but I was much more bullish on Trump's policy here than a lot of other hawks, because I thought there was a chance he could shake something loose and we'd get some sort of peace deal, as can be a good peace deal, or it might just be a ceasefire for a couple of years, whatever it is. But he just really draw a line where the control is now and say, is Russia, we regret it, but Russia is taking this territory.

1:04:51We're not going to get it back anytime soon. They keep it for now. And that Putin might go along with that because he'd be afraid of pissing off Trump. And he wasn't, at least not as afraid enough. And then I thought if Putin clearly is playing him along, Trump would turn on him eventually. And a lot of Ukraine hawks over the last six months are like, see, you're wrong. You're wrong about him. He just likes Putin. He's just with Putin. I'm not sure. Sure, it took a little longer than I would have liked, but he has made the turn because a lot of things about Trump, they're sort of gonzo and they're big truth social posts.

1:05:26But underneath it is kind of a conventional or commonsensical approach. Iran, you give them 50 days or 60 days or whatever, it's talk to them before Israel hits them. And if nothing comes to it, you hit them, right? That's a very conventional thing. Here, see if you can get a peace deal. Why not? If you can't, well, then you move to another policy. And I think the key thing is not the tariff threats. I don't think that moves Putin. But I do think, unfortunately, you just got to give Ukraine more weapons and say to Putin, this has already been a meat grinder for you. It's going to be more of a meat grinder for you, and you're not really going to gain any more territory.

1:06:01And maybe you're going to outlast us. You think you're going to outlast us. We're going to be highly painful for you. And maybe you'll think differently in a year, and we'll talk then. So I think that's the basic approach, and is the correct one. Exactly right. I think he said something interesting about Melania. Did you see this the other day? Yeah, I loved that. I'd hang up from a phone call with Putin and say, I had a really nice talk with Vladimir. And she'd say, oh, really? Because he just bombed another city. I'd get home. I'd say, First Lady, I had the most wonderful talk with Vladimir.

1:06:34I think we're finished. And then I'll turn on the television or she'll say to me one time, wow, that's strange because they just bombed a nursing home. I said, what? So. Now, I think that's so interesting because, of course, Melania Trump, of all people, would understand very well the instincts of a man like Vladimir Putin, given where she grew up in Eastern, you know, the Eastern Bloc, what used to be part of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, and probably has a very different idea of how he operates and whether her husband should trust him. Completely. And this is, you know, with the Epstein clips from Trump, you know, he throws a lot of chath and BS out there.

1:07:16But also, part of his power is a communicator. It's so real and hits home. Of course, this is the kind of thing that happens, right? You think you're doing something great. You go home, your spouse says, I don't think it's so great. You know, why is this happening? You know, it was funny. It was memorable and rings true. and and melania has been right about this and and the president finally realizes it i think it's great because she doesn't she doesn't try to you know she's not on camera or on the scene giving trump a lot of political advice right like she's very happy to my delight frankly to be behind the scenes a supporter of her husband and like not like a lady jill biden who's out there like a lady mcbeth you know she's yeah and she's been melania occasionally shows up with wearing a fancy hat, you know, and at events.

1:08:08Looking amazing. Yeah, she's not helping run cabinet meetings. But just a reminder that she obviously is very powerful. And if you talk to anybody in Trump land, anybody, they'll say the one person like he will listen to all the time and might even fear a little bit is Melania. You know, she's earned it by not being too vocal and too annoying on too many issues. And so it's pretty interesting that she's playing an important role behind the scenes here. We'll see. I mean, no one wants to see this war go on and on and on. It doesn't seem winnable by either side. I'd love for it just to come to some conclusion sometime soon so all the killing can stop.

1:08:45All right. Lastly, let's talk for a minute about illegal immigration, because the there was an ice raid in California on a marijuana farm the other day. And not only did they conduct an ice raid, but they wound up rescuing. this is on Thursday, at least 14 migrant children, including 10 who were unaccompanied minors. They've been now turned over to HHS. So you have illegals who are here who are minors with no parents. You have no idea who their parents are. Working at a pot farm in California, the ICE agents arrested at least 361 illegals. That's up from the original 319 that were reported. And among those who were arrested, we've got previously deported Mexican alien convicted of kidnapping, attempted rape and attempted child molestation.

1:09:38Mexican alien previously convicted of rape and DUI. Salvadoran alien previously convicted of DUI and hit and run. Mexican alien convicted three times for burglary and a DUI. These are dangerous people who Gavin Newsom was effectively allowing to work on this pot farm and who Trump and his ICE agents and Tom Homan went in there and got rescuing those children. This, as elsewhere, you get reports still out of California. This is actually via National Review, that you've got a professor at California State, Jonathan Anthony Caravello, who is being detained by federal agents after a riot at a different place, the Glasshouse Farms.

1:10:19I think that might be the same place, actually. Same place for throwing tear gas, a tear gas canister at the ICE agents. He ran toward the canister, picked it up, threw the canister over over hand back at the Border Patrol agents. It came within approximately several feet of the law enforcement's heads. So this is what the Trump team is up against. And the National Review team has a post up today talking about how this could all be solved by E-Verify. Like, why haven't we done that? So your thoughts on the E-Verify piece of it and just the news out of California. Yeah, well, tolerating illegal immigration creates this cesspool of illegality that leads to all sorts of hideous abuses.

1:11:10So it doesn't surprise me that you go to that farm that's employing so many illegal workers and you have additional illegality on top of it. So there's always going to be a place for ICE raids. But again, I think the main name of the game is cutting off the jobs magnet and making it much harder to employ illegal immigrants. And in these raids, they shouldn't just be targeting illegal workers. They should be frog marching the occasional HR person or the employer or the boss of the business that's been violating the laws. To make a point, don't do this because you might get caught by the law as well.

1:11:48But the easiest way to do it is to have a mandatory verify system where you have to verify that your employees are actually legal. There is no nod and wink arrangement. You can't claim, oh, I didn't really know. They gave me these fake documents. And then it becomes much harder to employ illegal immigrants without ICE having to go to the trouble of actually raiding places. and if legal immigrants get the message, it's not as easy to work here as I was led to believe, it wasn't as easy to work here as it was six months ago or a year ago, then you get the self-deportation, which if you're going to get, we've talked about this before, if you get the numbers way up, you need people to leave without having to expend federal resources, tracking them down, detaining them, and returning them on a government plane or whatever.

1:12:36You need them to go the same way they came, under their own power. So I think E-Verify is a key part of it. But again, Trump, because he's a little conflicted on this issue, he hates illegal immigration, but he also has a lot of sympathy for employers who need immigrant employees, hasn't been willing to really push for this system. And he has so much power in the party right now. If he just said he favors it, it'd become a kind of orthodoxy almost instantly. Immediately. Immediately. Yeah. And he's also worried about the economy. And I think he's been convinced that mass deportations of farm workers and hotel workers would hurt the economy.

1:13:12I mean, I think maybe short term that would be true, but then they'd have to offer higher wages to actual American citizens, which would boost quality of life and net net wind up boosting his approval ratings. That's my own back of the envelope. Would you like to see the professor, the Cal State professor who threw the canister at the cops? Maybe you didn't click on it on National Review, but there he is right on brand. I mean, it looks for the listening audience like a totally crazed, I don't know. He's got the same hair as Scott Pressler, who we love. But then he's got just like this crazed look on his face with a very 70s looking shirt and big glasses and some facial scruff and enjoy prison professor.

1:13:52He looks like Zoran Mondani's economics professor from college. Taught him everything he knows about the market. A little like Sonia Sotomayor, but that's too mean to Sonia Sotomayor. Here is some of the video that we have here. Look at this. Protesters throwing objects at agents in vans. This is in Los Angeles as they try to conduct their raids. One appears to fire a gun at federal agents as they're out there. I mean, these guys, the ICE agents are doing yeoman's work and they are just getting beaten up in city after city and then beaten up on the airwaves by losers like Anna Navarro, right, who are comparing them to the Gestapo with their commentary.

1:14:37And then Tom Homan, who's a hero, goes on with NBC's Dasha Burns. And look at this, what happens here at South 13. I think one of the things that's had a lot of folks up in arms is that ICE agents, unlike other law enforcement, have been masked to protect their identities. That's not something that we've really had on this scale in this country. Do you? Well, we never have a scale of attacks on ICE. We have now up 700 percent attacks on ICE. Doxing against ICE agents. Well, you've had increased attacks on police officers as well in the wake of the defund the police movement, too, but they haven't put masks on.

1:15:13you name name a police name a police agency has a 700 increase on assaults name one i haven't looked at that data yeah you won't find the same people are complaining about ice wearing masks have they ever said anything about blm protesters wearing masks i mean that that leads me to the question that like do you have concerns let me let me answer though let me answer yeah okay they ever say anything about the mass protesters that became criminals on college campuses that threatened jewish students and took over buildings destroyed property they were all wearing masks. Anybody pass legislation saying they can't wear a mask during a protest?

1:15:44No. Is it possible for a administration official to be your own personal heroine? Because Tom Holman is my own personal heroine. He's so good. When I was looking at that, yeah, I was looking at the clip. It reminds me a little bit of J.D. Vance during the campaign. J.D. would go on any program, always sure-footed, and occasionally corner the interviewers himself, which is exactly what Homan did there with Dasha Burns. And what's happening to ICE agents, this is what you'd want to happen in a healthy society if there really was a Gestapo stalking the streets, right? But this is not the Gestapo.

1:16:24They're federal law enforcement agents that are trying to enforce laws that are on the books. They say they're internment camps, alligator Alcatraz and all the rest of it. The federal law says illegal immigrants shall be detained, right? So it's the other side that's ignored the law and been literally lawless forever. And now the law is actually being enforced. And perversely, that's being made into the dark night of fascism descending. It's crazy. It's totally crazy. I should correct myself. I guess Dasha Burns left NBC in January of last year and now is with Politico. That's what we were watching there.

1:17:03Well, look, I think the ICE stuff is just getting better and better. They hit another record low on the illegal border crossings in June. I mean, it was a crazy number. It was so good. Everything's working there. Unfortunately, Rich, the latest poll I saw showed people are now veering more toward, well, we shouldn't deport them all. That's because of the southern border being secure. It's the same way how New York City residents voted for the awful Bill de Blasio and are apparently going to vote for this defund the police mom Donnie. They are forgetting what life was like pre-Giuliani. It only took six months of Trump in office for them to forget what life was like under Joe Biden and the masses who came in this country.

1:17:53Now they're like, oh, maybe it's not so bad. Now, it was one poll. It was Gallup. It was a pretty decent sample size, if memory holds. but it's just so funny how quickly people are like oh problem solved totally yeah totally that that was inevitable but i i think the administration is committed to kind of punching their way through it because i mean have we even put a dent really on the biden influx in terms of of numbers in terms of just getting getting that number of people out no so so there's so much work yet to be done so i don't think they're going to be deterred but it's kind of inevitable the polling would shift at least some because one, you know, you don't have the problem coming in from the border, as you're pointing out.

1:18:33Two, I mean, you are going to have to reach people who are just illegal immigrants who aren't criminals. You know, they have to go too. They don't belong here and they're more sympathetic than the MS-13 member or whatever. Yeah. Rich Lowry, you're such a stand-up guy for coming on and saving me this morning. You were You're supposed to come on later, but you readjusted the schedule to join me here in Vail, Colorado. If you can do the show from a random conference room at the airport, surely I could show up on my phone an hour or two early to accommodate you. Seriously, I wasn't expecting this.

1:19:07I was trying to get my makeup on in this room, and the nice lady is running in the soundbite list to me. Thank God. I greatly appreciate their help. They're wonderful places to go. Aspen and Vail are wonderful places to go, but you always run this risk. They're hard to get in and out of. Unfortunately. Eventually, I hope to make it home and I hope to be broadcasting tomorrow from the normal studio in New Jersey, at least during the summer. Rich, thank you. Awesome. Safe travels. All right. Thank you. And thanks to all of you for tuning in. We will be back, we hope, tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

1:19:46No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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