Black Gloves Found Near Nancy Guthrie Home, and Mystery Man Seen with TWO Backpacks, with Phil Holloway and More | Ep. 1251

27:16And I'm not locking into two people for this part of it. But nonetheless, they have to identify this guy. And if he's doing nothing wrong except prowling around some neighborhoods when he shouldn't, the police would probably know of this guy, the sheriff's department. If he's just a random guy that does this every once in a while, maybe homeless, lives under a cactus somewhere off the grid, they're going to know about this guy and they're going to identify him. And they're going to have now facial recognition. This guy is going to be a lot better possibility because you have his whole face. He's got some facial growth on his face.

27:48They're going to do some work with that. And I'm assuming this guy will be identified. Let's hope he's tied in to solve this case. Let's hope he's tied in to the person at Nancy's house and we could really then start moving forward. When you say it, it sounds so exactly right. Think about it. I mean, Maureen, what are the odds that there were two men wearing very similar clothing with a backpack packed to the brink within five miles of Nancy Guthrie's house on the night she was abducted, both of whom appear to have been carrying and appear to have been right-handed? and this guy's, we think he's got the little facial hair.

28:32He's got the big round head. He also appears in one of the shots I looked to have stick out ears. His head is perfectly round. There's not a lot of hair. You know, we talked about that, how you could see in the abductor's video, his head looks perfectly round. So he either didn't have like a bunch of hair that was mussing it up or maybe was bald. Yeah, here you can kind of see it. You can kind of see that his ear was more prominent on the right side. So what are the odds of there being two of them on the night in question within five miles of each other and within hours of one another? Astronomical.

29:06And then you have to ask yourself, why five miles away? Is that where he lives? Is that where they're keeping Nancy? Because in that kidnapping case where I told you we recovered the child alive, he had been staying at a home several miles away from the location he was taken from and he was being cared for by a family that was being paid to care for him while all the negotiations were going on with the ransom. So it's possible. I mean, when you guys watch that video, do you have any idea what he's doing? Like that's one of my questions is what the hell is he doing with that backpack? He's very focused on the one backpack and like trying to shove it over this fence or put it some, I don't know what he's doing.

29:51You tell me what what you could glean from watching this yeah i've i've i've chased down burglars back in the day and bank burglars residential burglars others and you know some of them like like a good kidnapper like a good abductor they're going to have a protocol set up and an mo a modus operandi that gets them in the door and out the door they may have materials with them in the old days you find a guy carrying a bunch of you know several pillowcases with them well guess what he's not looking to buy a pillow and take a nap. He has that to put material inside there. They may get the pillowcase from the house, quite frankly, but they also could bring a trash bag or something.

30:29So yeah, both these guys seem to have, I kidded the other day on the air, almost like they're carrying parachutes. Of course, it's not that, but they're stuffed to the brim, some kind of canvas material, tarp, of course, tools we talked about the other day. It looks like this is their kit. Is it a burglar kit, abduction kit, rape, murder, kidnap? We don't know. But it's a kit for criminal activity against a human being. So what's in that kit is going to be very valuable, change of clothes, change of hoods that we don't see on this guy on this newer video. And it's his kit to get him successfully to commit that crime.

31:05And we get that kit and find out. And this last guy we're just seeing, he has two different bags, it seems. And the video from the offender at one point, and Megan, you pointed this out, there's no bag in one of the pictures. So are these things like interchangeable? They put them down. One has one purpose. One has another when they're first casing the place. You know, they don't have a bag at all to look suspicious in case someone sees them. That discussion that we had yesterday about this picture has been haunting me. So for the listening audience, we're showing the picture of the abductor right underneath the archway at Nancy's house where he's not wearing the backpack.

31:44We don't see the gun. And the whole face mask looks like he has it on backwards. You can't see eyes. You can't see a mouth. It could just be the camera, not able to focus on him quite yet because he's not close enough. But you can't see any of that. And all I've been thinking about over the past night is that, what if that was, and it seems like it would have to have been after the crime, because I feel like we see him arrive to commit the crime. When he steps onto her property, he's got his flashlight in, he steps up on that little step. He seems to know it's coming. He sees the Nest Cam. He's like, okay, I got to deal with that.

32:27He does the vegetation. If the shot of him without the backpack was recon, his recon wasn't very good. So this is where we're showing him now arriving with the head down and his little mouth flashlight going. But my thought was simply, if that's him post-crime, without the backpack and without the gun, and now we know Nancy's not in the house any longer, it's not good. I mean, he should still need his gun. He should still be afraid that Nancy's going to get out of that car and run, that he's got a live person in his car? Like there's no time? I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on whether that makes it more or less likely?

33:16Like, should I have the opposite analysis? No, that's got to be him scouting it out in advance because post-crime, we know this person, whoever it was, had Nancy. Well, he's going to need the flashlight when he goes into the house. The house is pitch dark. You're not going to turn the lights on within the house because anyone driving by, even though you can't see much, you would be able to see if the lights were on inside Nancy's house at two o 'clock in the morning, and that would be concerning, especially if you're a friend that knows that her bedroom is all the way in the back or wherever it is.

33:46So he's got to have the flashlight when he's trying to go in. He also has to have the flashlight when he's going up to try to check the doorknob, because you'll notice that that video stops right before he would try to gain entry there. I mean, what if this dude had a key and went in the front door? We don't know because the video was stopped then. Do we not have the video? That's probably the video that law enforcement is holding back from this point. They totally have it, Maureen, because we saw him deal with the camera. I feel like we know what he did with the camera. Here, he settled on, I'm going to cover it with flowers, right?

34:24He didn't appear to keep trying to get it off. It appears, I don't know what happened next, but I think you're right. I think law enforcement has probably got video of him either entering this front door or abandoning it and going out that path and then winding up around the back. Because the plan was to drag her out the front door. That was the plan. He couldn't get in the front door, or maybe he did with a key or something, but you're not going to get past that burglar door and that really thick, wooden, Spanish-style front door that they have. I can't even look at a door like that without my hips hurting to this day.

35:01And Fitz will tell you the same thing. But the one in the back would be easy to break in. It's a thinner door. It's got nine small square panes of glass. You can either punch a hole in which someone did not do that, or you just boot the door down or boot it in. And that's if I don't know why they're not answering the question. Was this forced entry or was it not forced entry? But if it was forced entry, It had to be from the back because that Ashley Banfield is reporting that it was that so far, all of what she reported in her big scoop on the Tuesday after Nancy went missing has proven out. She said they were nest cameras.

35:38Everybody else had just been assuming ring. Guess what? They turned out to be nest cameras. She said that there was a camera in the front and the back that we don't know for sure. But I felt like the sheriff said they he referred to plural. We don't have them. So that seems to suggest. he also hasn't denied most of her reporting. Like he hasn't said the forced entry. He said, I don't know where you got that from. We didn't say that. We didn't say that. That's not a denial. So there could have been a forced entry. Ashley did report it was a forced entry from the back door and that the back door was left open.

36:14And that's how the family found it when they showed up. So TMZ is also reporting now something interesting about that timeline. So it was 1.47 a.m. that the doorbell camera went offline, according to them. But it was 2.12 a.m. that either some remnant of a camera or some different camera reported an image of a person had appeared. And the cop was sure to say, the sheriff said, it could have been actually an image of an animal, but it detected something. It detected an image at 2.12. And we spent days confused about how was it detecting images of people or anything after it was already disabled or disconnected at 1 47 a.m.

36:51And they ultimately explained there was another camera. Now TMZ is reporting that it was at 2 12 a.m. that we are seeing the intruder video, that that video is from 2 12 a.m. Now we haven't independently confirmed that, but then I'm more confused than ever. Like, well, then what happened at 147. The doorbell camera went offline, and yet at 212, we see this. So was it the back doorbell camera that went offline at 147, and there he is at 212? Why wouldn't he just be in the back? None of it makes sense, and I guess it's not going to until law enforcement explains it to us. Co-conspirator driver, no, because he had the backpack on.

37:34The guy in the intruder video had the backpack on. But they could be using something like a Nextel, a walkie-talkie, that's the guy, the getaway driver and the kidnapper. Yeah, and I don't want to give these one or more people too much more credit than they deserve, but obviously the abduction part has been successful up to this point in time, although obviously some mistakes now and shortness and a lack of professionalism in terms of their overall activity. But Megan, yeah, this could be free offense. We see the person walking up doing a quick reconnoiter without all the equipment on except the mask, to be sure.

38:15And maybe even backwards, you could probably still see through it, depending on what kind of ambient light is there. I know there's not much. And they're just looking around real quick. Or also it could have been after Nancy is safely in the car. She's restrained well enough, perhaps being watched by someone else. and this person, I've seen burglars, I've interviewed burglars after the fact that they would come back to the scene if they've had even 10 minutes or 20 minutes in a residence or a business. And they'd look around one more time, left no tools, left no gloves. You know, this is even before DNA analysis when I was doing some of these, but they wanted to make sure they left nothing behind at the scene.

38:52So here he could be coming up one more time, backpacks in the car, gun, everything else, looks around. All right, it's good. Let's get out of here. That could explain, it really explains the beforehand, him walking up and afterwards without the backpack. Something else that happened is they found gloves. Okay, we talked about that with Phil Holloway before you guys got here. They found a pair of gloves and everybody says, okay, it's the desert, you're going to see gloves. But it is kind of interesting that it's in exactly the right place. It's not too far away from Nancy's house. And the gloves, they're not in the middle of like an area people prune from the look of it.

39:36It's like roadside. It almost has the feel of somebody driving away and chucking things out the window. And then sure enough, we know that the police went back. They found these yesterday evening in the daylight hours, clearly. The sun had not set. You can see that in the video because the New York Post happened to be traveling with them. And they go back at 2.15 in the morning, not to that exact spot, guys, but not too far from there. I'm just judging from the map my team made, maybe half a mile farther south to search in the darkness. So what's that about? I don't understand searching in the darkness, and I've done a million of these searches, but Fitz, go ahead.

40:17No, I always ought to say, and Maureen, you've been on these kind of task forces, at some point they start working around the clock and you have three different shifts, maybe two different shifts, 12 hours each. Some kind of a lead comes in at midnight. A couple agents look at each other. The boss says, yeah, sure, go out. And maybe just something as inconsequential as that. I don't mean the evidence is inconsequential or what they found, but it could be, hey, guys, we're just sitting here. The calls aren't coming in at whatever time it is. Let's go out with our flashlights, put up some floodlights maybe and search this particular area.

40:49And I'm not sure if that's exactly when they found these gloves or they were looking for something else at that point. But, and there's also a reflective bag, as we noticed, Megan and Maureen, and maybe just shining a flashlight across some of this wide, you know, depth and breadth alongside these roadways, you'd get a reflection that you wouldn't normally necessarily pick up in the daylight with a backpack that may blend in with the with the flora the vegetation etc so i don't want to put too much into the time of night that the agents were out there except hey nothing else is happening i've covered my leads let's go take a ride and look at some of these things and someone picks up what they're doing they also may want to avoid the media knowing what they're doing but of course someone saw them and there's no avoiding us yeah that's excellent point on the reflective material on that backpack fits because Because first of all, that backpack, if it's gray, you're not even going to see it when you're out there walking.

41:44It's going to be really hard. It's super bright sunlight. And everything is just those light camo colors. And that gray backpack would fall right into it. But with regard, if I could for a moment, on those gloves, I think the idea with the gloves is just, I'm just so excited about this piece of evidence for a number of reasons. Number one, it's going to have the guy's DNA on it. There's no way it's not going to. Secondly, if he put those gloves on while he was in his car before they got out to conduct this crime that they committed and they put their hand in the door handle to open it, they could almost superimpose fingerprints that were on that door handle onto the glove and then transfer them onto some surface within the property or on the doors or on that housing of the mess camera.

42:36Would that still be here all this time later, Maureen, 10, 11 days later? Yes, absolutely. Oh, wow. Really? You're confident? Yeah. Great. Not to mention touch DNA. Could he be that dumb to throw the things out the window? Well, my guess was when I first heard it, he stopped to go to the bathroom, and he took the gloves off and may have tried to put them in his pocket, and it was pitch black and he didn't realize it, and they just fell to the ground while he was urinating. And at this point, you're not foreseeing the entire country bearing down on your crime and the amount of searching and resources and 100 FBI agents or however many it is.

43:17You know, you're not thinking like, this is this is a dumb move to leave these gloves here. I'm off the crime scene, at least. And before big up, you always either before or after you want to go to the washroom, right? But especially as a guy. Yeah, that's absolutely true. or have the stuff in the bottle to clean your hands. But yeah, I mean, of course, maybe within a 20-foot radius of those gloves, pick up some of the soil and look for any DNA material in there. I mean, we can probably find animal DNA. But also, and I think your earlier guest before us, Megan suggested, besides his own DNA on it or fingerprints, we could also have the DNA of Nancy Guthrie.

43:59And that would certainly tie the gloves in directly to the crime. And what we have to hope here, too, is that perhaps this guy is in CODIS. That's the national DNA database that they can run. So if there is DNA found, they could possibly come up with a name, an address conceivably right away. But he has to be in there for some sort of prior crime that, in fact, the law permits his DNA to be put in there, his write-up, so to speak. So there's a lot that can come from those gloves. gloves it may come back to someone's dna in cotis who has nothing to do with the crime and we all have to be prepared for that but just like the guy the other guy double backpack guy we're calling them and these gloves they all have to be worked to their logical conclusion until investigators can absolutely rule them out that they have nothing to do with how long would it take to get the dna test back on those gloves which they found yesterday afternoon like around four or five in the evening?

44:55The turnaround can be as fast as 24, 48 hours, especially with access to the FBI lab. They've got a bunch of 10-pound brains there on scene, but they can also ship it right back, have two agents jump on a flight and bring it right back to the lab. So they're going to get it done very, very quickly. It would also be a little bit of a bonus if they could find some of that crushed foliage from the front porch with a little bit of blood from the guy's shoes right there next to those gloves. And keep in mind, you know, we've been discussing loosely in this past hour, like, did he have an accomplice driving the car, watching Nancy, helping him with the disposal of some of the materials?

45:36Don't forget, Kash Patel did say on Hannity two nights ago, persons of interest. We have persons, plural. He's not dumb. He understands to make it plural, means something than to just say we have a person, old Carlos. So, you know, query who else he's looking at there. By the way, on the Carlos thing, there was reporting that explained some of why they got to him. Nerdy Addict, Nerdy Addict, who was the one who posted that video of Pac-Man, he reported that Carlos was detained based on cell phone usage data and traffic analysis, which would make sense because Carlos said they didn't even interview me when they approached me.

46:20They put cuffs on me. I sat there for two hours. They searched my home. They took my phone. They took my mother-in-law's phone. They took my wife's phone. They took my kids' phones. And then they left. And they battered their way into my house and they caused some damage. My wrists hurt. But he said they didn't even interview him. And as you know, later, the FBI said his alibi checked out, reportedly said. So that would make some sense if they were going off of cell phone usage data and traffic analysis. We know he was a DoorDash delivery driver. Maybe they spotted him. Yeah, he was in the area.

46:54He's cruising around. He's going up and down that block. He may have parked in the area behind him for a few minutes. And they were, sorry about that. No, I can hear you. I got you. You know, his movements must have been suspicious. And then when they get their hands on his phone, they know easily within an hour where he was on the night in question during the hours in question. Right. That doesn't take the FBI long to run down. Not at all. And let me I'm sure there's a number of defense attorneys in the area reaching out to Carlos. We're going to sue the government for you. And Megan, as a lawyer, you know, this there's such a thing is known as exigent circumstances.

47:34And I've learned that in a few different law enforcement academies. I'm not a lawyer. But it's very, very rare that that can actually come into play here. And I think a kidnapped person who may be conceivably dying without medication or anything to do with her heart problem, those kind of factors can kick in where Miranda warnings can be put aside and emergency searches can be done like having been done here. They can still contest it in court later, even civilly with this guy. But just so people don't think there's all kinds of rights being violated here. Exigent circumstances is a legal term.

48:10And that kind of covers the agent's investigative actions at this part. He didn't always seem to be complaining. I think he said basically, besides his wrist being a little sore or something, the agents treated him OK. But they had to do that. They didn't rough him up. They just put his handcuffs on him. No, wait. I know Maureen's got to leave in a minute. but I want to ask a question first about that tent. So this morning for an hour, they put a tent out in front of Nancy's front door and did some sort of analysis in there and they brought in some sort of, I don't know what it was called, but it was obviously a video type of machine and let's see, I have it written down.

48:46Ultra Studio 4K mini kit, professional capture and playback device designed for high-end video workflows, connecting a computer like a laptop or a desktop to professional video equipment. You can do editing, color grading, live production, broadcast, and other things. They also had a large pelican-style box labeled Video Forensics. There's always a pelican-style box, Megan. Okay. And what they said, what Michael Ruiz also reported was that they left carrying a diagram with human heights. So, Maureen, you tell me what they were doing under that tent. That's exactly what I thought it was going to be one of two things.

49:21They were either mapping out the blood stain better, and the other option was they were going to determine exactly—oh, yeah, they're determining exactly how tall this person is. Oh, they can use—for the listening audience, they were showing an FBI agent, we think, carrying like a—it almost looks like the kind of thing that you'd have your child stand up against in the doctor's office to see how tall he is. So using that, they can figure out how tall the perp was? Yes, and they're going to look at the bricks on the wall. They're going to look at the tiles on the ground, those satio tiles, and they're going to check from the camera that the exact angle that the camera is at and with the way the guy was hunching his head.

50:04And I mean, they're going to be putting together a whole bunch of information and they're going to determine exactly how tall this person was. Well, here's what else is crazy. So the New York Post is right now reporting that the other thing they did under that tent was they took away the Nest camera bracket. you know, the cradle. Guys, isn't it nuts that that was still sitting there? I'm like, just look what my Jake Whitman did yesterday, you know, like mounting it and trying to get the thing off of it. And it's like, can we really have safely said there's nothing on that? We should leave that sitting there.

50:38I just feel like there's been a lot of questions about how this crime scene has been handled before the FBI got on scene. All I can say is it wouldn't have been that big of a deal if they didn't release the house back to the family. But they did release the house back to the family. Not that they went in there and removed the bracket for the camera, whatever. But still, they gave it back and now they're coming back. Again, crossing every T, dotting every I, even if it's almost two weeks later. Let's just say they're getting it done right, even if it's delayed. Yeah. Okay, last question, Maureen, before you run.

51:14The visit to Annie and Tomas' house the other day, we discussed it. Two agents or two, we think they were cops, went over. They emerged holding a Whole Foods paper bag, not like an evidence bag that was plastic and fancy. They had on blue latex gloves when they walked out of the house. They weren't in the house for too long. And then they went and they got the mail out of the mailbox with the latex gloves on. Could this have just been a lot of speculation about what they were doing again at Annie and Tomas'. But could this have just been the family's in a remote location and they're helping him out?

51:45Like she needed her sweater and she wanted her mail. Right. It could have been private security. And the reason he's wearing gloves is because if there's something in that mailbox that ends up being evidence, this guy doesn't want to have to cough up his DNA for exclusionary purposes. He's just said, hey, I just reached in, grabbed it, put it in a bag and handed it to them. So if there's anything on it, it's either the perpetrators or theirs or the mailman's. Okay. That makes sense. Because I watched those guys. They did look like possibly military, possibly law enforcement experience, but they could have also been private security, which is very common to hire after an incident like this when you need all kinds of things.

52:27Because they probably have security there wherever the hell they're staying. We know the family has hired security for both houses, I'm sure, because the media was just everywhere, but has denied hiring a private investigator. One guy who helped the feds out on the Brian Kohlberger case showed up at that tent today outside of Nancy's house. And there was some speculation earlier that this guy was a PI hired by the Guthries and they denied hiring a PI. And it later came out. This is some like stud who helped out in the Kohlberger investigation and now is helping out in this one. Maureen, I know you got to go.

52:59I won't take advantage of your very, very generous time with us. Thank you. And we'll talk to you soon. Thank you. So, Jim, we're going to pause here. I think we're going to pause and we're going to bring in our friends from yesterday, James and Will. But first, we're going to take a quick break. Lots more to go through. Stand by. We'll be right back. When you bring a child into the world, your perspective changes overnight. Suddenly, you're thinking years ahead about childcare, school, the future milestones. Part of loving your family also means thinking about their future, even in the uncomfortable ways like life insurance.

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57:06We're joined as we were yesterday by two others, James Hamilton, former FBI supervisory special agent and founder of the Hamilton Security Group, along with Will Geddes, elite bodyguard and security expert and founder of International Corporate Protection. Gentlemen, a pleasure. Thank you all so much for coming back. Okay, a couple of things that I want to get to, including the evidence analysis that's going on right now of the abductor's outfit. We've had so many smart armchair sleuths online on X doing their own searches for what is that backpack because it's pretty distinctive. What is that jacket he's wearing?

57:48Because that too is kind of distinctive with this horizontal stripe, thin stripe right across the middle, and it may be fleece. And it seems like people have figured out that that backpack may be an Ozark Trail hiker backpack. That it is apparently, and then by the way, the local reporter, KOLD's Mary Coleman, she's been reporting, and that's one of the organizations that received the alleged ransom note. She reported that indeed a law enforcement source close to the case says they are familiar with this brand of Ozark Trail Hiker, and they are looking into it. They're looking into other brands as well, but they've got their eyes on this one.

58:26And this was one that the online salutes came up with almost immediately. It's cheap. They sell it at Walmart, including the Walmart in Tucson, the Tucson Walmart Superstore, where you can get it right now for$10.88. So it's cheap. It's$11. And that dovetails pretty well with, I think, every one of your conclusion, which was this was not some super trained hitman, high budget operation. The$11 backpack thing probably jives for you. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'll start with you, James, on it. Thoughts? Great. It's, you know, technology is wonderful. I just feel for these agents, these officers who are getting, I read last count, like 4 ,000 leads in 24 hours because these, as you call them, sleuths are doing all this great work.

59:17And, you know, it's awesome. But it's also, you know, that stuff's got to be worked. And it takes a while. And there's not like an infinite stream of agents. So it's wonderful. And I think it's great. I agree with you. an$11 backpack from Walmart would be completely in line with the Uncle Mike's crap holster this person was wearing. So that all checks out. But again, these leads have to get run down. And Fitz was talking earlier about 24-7 shifts. Yeah, they're not sleeping. I remember working these very few kidnappings I worked, but you didn't go home. It was like all hands on deck until you found this victim.

59:53But how do you do it, James? Do you go into the Walmart and you say you carry these backpacks? Yeah, we do. Yeah, that's exactly what happens. You ask for purchases, you ask for purchase orders, you get a subpoena, you ask for how many of these backpacks were sold. They have all that? Like a place like Walmart would have that all of that recorded? Yes. And then you start looking, hopefully they, you know, as we're going down the road of him not being a pro would buy it in cash. A pro would buy it with cash. A pro would go to different stores, not buy all the material at the same store, but an amateur probably use a credit card.

1:00:33And that would be a huge break for us if we could get a credit card and then it's on. Okay. We did take a look just to see if at that same Tucson Walmart, they were selling face masks. And we determined that they are not available at that Tucson Walmart. You'd have to get that online. So for whatever it's worth, and I don't know whether that was still the case three months ago or whenever. But I mean, it would be, do you think it would be relatively recent, Will, that they'd be asking Walmart to search? Because like if this guy bought this stuff five years ago, Walmart's not going to have that.

1:01:07Yes, no, I mean, it really does depend on whether he'd had it already in his possession. It was something that he'd been using. But again, that's where it's going to be, you know, on a day-to-day basis. But that's where it's going to be kind of interesting, certainly when they start joining up CCTV from neighbourhoods, from various other areas, and to see some sort of lifespan of this individual. Now they've hopefully got some sort of clear identification, certainly on what he was wearing, that they can try and join all these pieces together. You know, as James was saying, it's a jigsaw puzzle.

1:01:38And I would concur that I think this is much more of a non-professional in terms of the individual that's behind it. um buying gray kit i buying sort of very low cost items is not unknown for professionals professionals will do that to try and evade detection or discovery however the one area which james rose which i think is really important was the uncle mike holster uh now if it was a professional i think uh they would find it incredibly difficult to go into an operation with a sort of nylon holster as basic as that. Why? Explain to those of us who don't know about the holsters why that's so basic and low-end.

1:02:21Well, firstly, it was the positioning of the weapon, Megan. You know, this weapon was overt. It was not concealed. And more often than not, anybody who's used to carrying a firearm will be used to concealed carry or certainly have sufficiently good quality holsters because you only have to use, anybody who uses a firearm will know if you have a cheap holster, that's going to wear out or it's going to let you down in some shape or form. So again, having that cheap holster indicates that this individual may not necessarily be well-practiced or well-versed and have had a lifespan of using firearms because more often than not, as much as you invest in the weapon, you're also investing in the ancillary and auxiliary equipment that you use with it.

1:03:02Okay. So pretty much everything about him looks cheap. I mean, we looked it up and it was like the Luigi backpack that he used when he killed, allegedly, the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, Brian Thompson. It was like$300. It was high end. He came from a rich family. And we're seeing so far what we believe is the opposite of that with clothing that didn't look expensive, a backpack that you can get for$11. The ski mask, for what it's worth, retails right now. If you order it today, you can get it between February 20th and February 27th for$3.12. So that's another, you know, low-end item that he appears to have used.

1:03:40And if this is the guy, I want to ask you guys for your thoughts on the new videotape that may or may not be related. But before you got here, we talked about how, like, even though there are some apparent differences between the alley guy who's got two backpacks, we've been calling him Pac-Man, and the actual abductor, like the actual abductor to us looks a little thicker than Pac-Man, a little like fatter or just stockier in the legs and in the rear end in particular. But who knows because abductor man could have had a few more layers on. We don't know. But we are told that this video of Pac-Man took place in the wee hours of the morning, we believe post the abduction of Nancy Guthrie, and that it happened five miles south of Nancy Guthrie's home.

1:04:28By the way, at least the guy who posted it on X, Nerdy Addict, described this as it was submitted to him as a tip. And the person did also submit it to the FBI. And this person is shown trying, this is the description that he got, to unlock a side gate, to unlock a side gate. I guess I shouldn't say that it happened after Nancy. They say it has no timestamp. We just know, quote, early morning hours of February 1st, which is when she was stolen. So your thoughts, you guys, on the odds of this being like another criminal potentially in the area with the backpacks in a similar outfit, and we thought we saw a possible weapon in his right-hand jacket, his zippered pocket.

1:05:15Maureen was suggesting she thought she saw that. Anyway, not confirmed, but a speculative possibility. I thought I saw a timestamp. Maybe you should play that video again, but I thought I saw a timestamp in the bottom right, and it was saying 1.53 a.m. on February the 1st. Okay, we'll have to go back and look at that. Well, if that's true, how can he possibly be in two places at one time? It's hard to do. Well, but it also assumes that the camera was set on the right time. Correct. And that's an excellent point. And, you know, I've seen so many not set on the exact right time zone. They didn't factor in leap year.

1:05:50It could have been off and that can easily explain it. It's quite that's a quite a good lead that someone needs to find out who that person is. And he's definitely worth a really strong investigative interview. um i i think fitz wanted to comment but i i was laughing when will was talking about the uncle mike thing i just want to go back to the the holster so we call it that because that's a very cheap holster that you would usually see like a hunter purchase for a big revolver and that what that uh that one right there yeah that's for a big revolver like a six inch eight inch barrel and And what's happened here is they've stuck a semi-auto smaller pistol into this thing.

1:06:31And it's so haphazard. It reminds me very much of where I live, where a lot of people carry what we call open carry. And it's like a cowboy. It's insane. And it looks like that. The pistol doesn't match the holster. It's like total amateur hour. And you just kind of, well, most of us, we just kind of laugh about it. And then I leave and get away from them because they're dangerous. But yeah, that's why I was laughing at that. Just FYI, James, my team is confirming, yes, it says 153 Mountain Standard Time on February 1st, 2026. That's the timestamp on there. And again, now I do not, I don't trust any of these times at this point, but the sheriff said at 147 a.m.

1:07:11the Nest cameras were disconnected at Nancy's, and at 212 a.m. they alerted, image detected. And he said, you know, could have been a man, could have been an animal, 212. Now, TMZ is reporting that it was 212 a.m. that the abductor tried to get in, as we saw, or tried to cover up the nest cam and did all the stuff, the guy with the face mask. That's 212 a.m. I haven't confirmed that independently, but that's what TMZ is reporting, that that was at 212. This is 153 Mountain Standard Time. So I don't know. Like, could you, if you take the 147 ring camera disconnected out of it, which I will say for the record, my team, some of whom have Nest cameras have told me, whatever rings or Nest, that sometimes they go offline and you get that.

1:08:00Sometimes the camera will say offline because whatever, you have an internet hit, et cetera. In any event, 153 to 212, what's that? 7, 12, 17 minutes. I don't want to do the math. It's seven plus 12, which is 19. Thank you. Megan, can I tell you, on the task force wall, there's a big whiteboard, probably digital, and they have the times exactly lined up what they are. And they've gone back to the ring company or Nest, whatever. They know. So we can speculate a lot. And this is healthy to do for us in trying to piece these items together. But I'm assuming that the investigators themselves know exactly what this is.

1:08:47And let me go back a couple of minutes here. In the Unabomb case, agents went out to every single junkyard in the country. Now, think about that. Trying to find the components of the devices, the IEDs, improvised explosive devices, the bombs, the Unabomber was sending through the mail. And some of these, certainly in rural areas, some guy just has his backyard and that's a junkyard. But agents wound up tracking down every single, a lot of people don't know that, but before he was called Unabomber or Unabomber, he was called the Junkyard Bomber because all the devices were handmade or picked up from loose structures.

1:09:26Then when the manifesto came in and the letters or the bombs were addressed to people, it took them not too long to figure out all that information is coming from the who's who book in libraries. This is free Internet. Remember, as a kid, the biggest book in the library was always who who who's who's. You couldn't check it out. Just a reference. FBI agents went to every single library in the country trying to get information. Hey, who's coming in? Who's looking at these? Who's paging through them? Looking, you know, here's the composites, look anything like this. And interesting, a lot of the university, university libraries would not help at first.

1:10:02But once a professor got bombed and seriously injured, Yale University and other universities, they said, oh, FBI, come on back. We think we can help you now. That's just a side story there. But it just shows you that that's pre-internet. And that just shows you they'll go in person and do this. And there are agents over the country now fanning out, looking at these different places where these are sold in an attempt to determine the providence of the mask, backpack, everything we're talking about. Right now, we get a report as we're talking, Fox News, FBI and the sheriff seeking to question man with backpack captured on video just miles from Nancy Guthrie's home on the night she vanished.

1:10:40They want to speak with the guy seen on the camera. That makes perfect sense. I think Maureen raised a good point too, that is there any possibility they haven't already gone to that location and searched for whatever was in that backpack, the actual backpack, whatever remnants were there? What if the guy who broke the story, nerdy addict, if he's correct, that the person is trying to unlock a side gate, that they've been through that side gate? I mean, how long does it take to get a warrant? I guess that's one of the relevant questions because, you know, getting the warrant is important. so that whatever evidence may or may not be there can be admitted later down the line.

1:11:19But does it take a long time to get a warrant and get over there and get that searched while you put out basically an APB for the man shown in the tape? Well, you wouldn't need one in this case. I mean, this is ostensibly a third-party residence that we don't have any information that this guy owns that house because he would have been able to just walk through that gate. So the people that own it, I mean, I'd run over there with Fitz and say, hey, you know, FBI, we need to talk to you about the Nancy Guthrie investigation, and we have reason to believe this guy tried to, you know, get over your fence.

1:11:52Do you mind if we look? And they're going to say nine times out of ten, absolutely you can look. And that's called a consent search, you know. Now, if they start to say, hell no, you can't, well, okay, we may have to use exigent circumstances, maybe stretch it or have to get a warrant. We can hold it. You know, we can secure that area and make sure nothing's tampered with until we go get a warrant. But my experience is, you know, because you're nice and they teach agents how to be nice and talk to people, you know, you can get consent from the homeowner. That's not that difficult. I will say just looking at it, even though this guy, Pac-Man, as we're calling him with a double backpack, looks skinnier to me than the abductor.

1:12:31One thing I will say is yesterday we talked about whether the abductor has some sort of a limp or something wrong with his leg because his gait is a little weird. It's a little stilted. The way he goes down off of that step, it's like he almost doesn't bend his leg the way a normal person would. Here it is, right there. That could just be because he's in the dark. He doesn't know where the step is. I don't want to attribute too much to it. But this guy seems to have also an odd gate. There's got to be somebody at the FBI who does gate analysis, right? We saw that with the pipe bombing. the pipe bomber where the blaze had a gate analysis that told them it was a woman who had a connection with the federal government.

1:13:20She then allegedly had an alibi showing that she was with her dogs, though, I don't know. I still have questions about the pipe bomber case, if I'm totally honest. In any event, they said that's not true and that the pipe bomber was this this, you know, this kid, this sort of autistic kid who lived in Maryland, but they have somebody to analyze gait. Do they not? Yeah, they do either in the FBI or they have experts on call to, to assist in that regard. That's kind of a newer, I don't think that would be testimonial or evidentiary, but certainly from an investigative perspective, that would be valuable to have certainly to compare one person's gait to another.

1:13:58And now there's a lot of that, not just in the J five bomber case, certainly in the last months or so before the arrest came. But certainly in the Brown University case, people are analyzing the gate on that person. And just to go back to the house where this double Pac-Man, one version we're calling him, we haven't heard anything about the people who live in that house. And is the address by chance - And if it's even a house, right? It looks like a back alley to like an apartment complex or some sort of - Whatever it is. And does the address, you know, somehow the numbers match up? you know, to look at him.

1:14:34It looks like he's in a parking garage there. Look, there's a there's two cars we can see in the foreground. There's cars in the background, multiple. It looks like some sort of a parking complex or or garage. So this. Yeah, I can't determine that people. I'm sure they know where it is right now. But obviously, talk to everybody who lives there. And what is this person doing in that particular environment? And that somehow the address or street even resemble a little bit, you know, Nancy Guthrie's. I know it's five or so miles away, but could this be a wrong idea? And let me tell you, I worked in 2001.

1:15:07The case of the Zantop professors from Dartmouth University murdered in their home, stabbed to death. Knife sheath, coincidentally, left behind in that case, too, which helped eventually arrest two teenagers from across the across the line in Vermont. But what they did, the two teenagers, a day or two before they knocked on different neighbors doors to get in. because they were pretending they were going to do some kind of a survey. They had a clipboard back in the day, whatever, and to make it look official. And they actually knocked on these doors. Luckily, those neighbors said, not interested, not interested.

1:15:41Byzantops being professors at Dartmouth, let them in. And next thing you know, they get stabbed to death, both of them. Different case. I realize that. And we may have a different guy here at this other location, but related to the guy at Guthrie House. So they could have practice runs. They could have a wrong address. They could be trying to get anywhere. Now we're going to a territory. Is this completely unrelated to anything we've been discussing here with Savannah, with stalkers, everything else? I have to say, the guy looks too skinny to me. The rarest of the rare. Let's look at the abductor video one more time, team.

1:16:18Let's put that back on the board, because the first thing I said about the actual abductor, not Pac-Man, abductor man, Look, look at his rear end and his legs. The guy on the right, to me, looks like he's got a good, I don't know, 25 pounds on Pac-Man. He's not skinny. That was actually one of the first things we agreed on about Abductor. But Pac-Man is kind of skinny. You see it because he's lifting up his arms, trying to shove that backpack over that gate. And his jacket lifts up. And you can see his entire backside and his legs. And he is a very skinny, not very skinny, but he's a skinny guy.

1:16:59This guy, would you describe this guy as very skinny, Abductor Man? No. No, I think Abductor Man is certainly a bit more chunky, a bit more heavier set. Pac-Man, I think where it's really particularly useful, having identified Pac-Man will be to inevitably look at any other neighbor's ring doorbells or CCTV to basically see what direction he came from and did he come from a vehicle before he went up to that sort of that that gate at the back to put his stuff over and and ultimately at the end of the day I think the key issue here is um joining those two together if they were working together then you're doubling up your potentials for discovery of one or the other which I mean I'm sure Fitz and James will be able to give you a great deal more detail on but ultimately the two quite often you may find, particularly in amateurs, that they will source their equipment from similar places unless they already have it within their wardrobe.

1:17:58Okay. So that's very interesting. Like, are they distinct men and are they working together? And do they just look similar because they're both low-end shoppers and this was not some high-end caper and they probably, you know, I mean, in the way I wear and look like a lot of the women I hang out with, so do they. Go ahead, James. I can see you want to get in. Well, I was just smiling because we don't like coincidences at all in our business. And this is a hell of a coincidence that you've got two males walking around within five miles of each other at 2 a.m. in the morning with backpacks and trying to enter or exit portals.

1:18:36That's a hell of a coincidence. So for me, it's a great lead. It's something that they have to run down. Maybe it's not involved. You know, it's possible. But my money right now is it's not that I wouldn't lean that way. I would lean toward where the hell were you? Do you know Nancy Guthrie? Like everything, everything we got is going to go to find who this person is and do a really strong interview and not create some story of, oh, yeah, it's just a coincidence that he just happens to also be out with a backpack. And by the way, that second backpack, the way that he's holding it over that fence is bizarre.

1:19:10It's very strange the way he uses his left hand to put it up over the fence as if there's something in it that he doesn't want to disrupt. You'll see him do it here. Why take the audience? It's on his left shoulder. Now he took it off. Now he's got it in his left hand. And it looks like he's trying to like shove it over to me. I thought he was trying to like push it over and couldn't do it. and he fails. It's almost like, it almost looks like there's some sort of an imaginary wall there that he didn't expect to be there. And he really wanted to shove that backpack over, but he can't. And he abandons it.

1:19:43So he doesn't even look like he's using force, but it doesn't happen. And he takes the backpack back and walks away with it. Keep going, James. Well, almost like he had some type of device in there that he thought would unlock it. It looks like he's trying to, you know, swipe it or, you know, have it over the other side. It's going to somehow do something. It's bizarre the way he does that. So, you know, again, I'd like to find out who this individual is. What are you doing? You know, and just run it to the ground and don't, this is a good lead. How long do you think it's going to take the FBI to figure out who this guy is?

1:20:16Because unlike Abductor Man, he's not wearing a mask. And we know this guy is in Tucson, or at least was. And he too wasn't expecting to find his picture all over the internet today. Well, I don't know if you and Fitz and Maureen talked about this earlier, but I'm shocked that we're only talking 50 ,000 bucks right now. I mean, that, that reward, that's a joke. Really amp it up. Hell yeah. $50 ,000. That's nothing. You know, what should it be? I'd put it up to half a million dollars. It's 11, 12 days. Now I want this woman back. What's 500 grand. We got that kind of money. You know, I, I just, for me, let's get some, let's get some strong, strong interest to identify these people.

1:20:58You're not worried that it's going to incentivize the crazies? You know, like I think incentivize already. We're dropping Bitcoin money and that's already happened. Those horses have left the barn, as we say, where I come from. That loser popped up again, too. I'll get to him in a second. I can see you want to get in fits. Go ahead. Yeah, I just there's been research done about rewards over the years. Unabomber was one million, the highest reward ever. Some of Bin Laden was 25 million. Sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't. I always prefer when people come to me wanting to reward money as opposed to some other issues that sometimes are just telling lies.

1:21:33But I think context is important about this double Pac-Man guy for what we're calling him. I would really like to interview all the sheriffs that work, deputy sheriffs that work in that area and see what kind of transient population. He looks he looks white. He looks Caucasian. This is like he's an immigrant across the border, 60 some miles away. So there may be guys that roam around at night. I used to, as a patrol officer, I'd shut my lights off, turn my engine off. You'd be surprised the stuff that just happens around you and the odd people that show up. And this is like in a suburb of Philadelphia, probably not that different from where this area is.

1:22:09So I'm not ruling this guy in or out. And I said earlier, it's a coincidence on steroids if, in fact, within the same hour timeframe, we have two different things happening with guys with backpacks about five miles apart. We know the guy is the adductor. He's guilty. He did his crime. I'll suspend all his rights to being innocent here because he did something there at that house. This guy, we don't know his involvement. And look at this. Can we zero in on Pac-Man? You really can see the facial hair more clearly in that shot that we're running right now. Maybe we can run again. Look at the beard.

1:22:47Yeah. I mean, you can see it very clearly. He's got like the devil beard, not the beard that's like all over your cheeks, but like just down at the chin. And you can't quite see what's happening above his lip or whether he's got the soul patch there, but it is a black beard. We'll count ourselves lucky that he chose not to wear a mask then or the mask or a mask, even a COVID-type mask to cover himself. So he's going to be identified. That was the first question you asked me. That's only a matter of hours. And if he doesn't come forward, because even if he's not part of this abduction, he certainly looks like he's up to no good at two in the morning with the backpacks and the alley.

1:23:29Like that does not whatever. I mean, we're just presuming. But so if the guy doesn't come forward, that's even more suspicious, right? Like the FBI, when the FBI tracks him down, they're going to be even more suspicious of him because he knows this guy knows by now that everybody's looking for him. And why wouldn't you come forward? If it's petty anti-crime and, you know, they're looking at you for like a possible murder, kidnapping. I don't know. What do you do? Yeah, the word is on the street. And again, with the deputy sheriff, we don't care if you're looking to urinate or defecate or or smoke a joint or, you know, even do a petty larceny, as you said.

1:24:04We want to know if you're involved in this thing. So the word is going to get out. If this is a local guy who roams the neighborhoods at night, I just don't know. Is there, again, a homeless encampment somewhere near there or a couple of guys that hang out in a park somewhere? We don't know that. Or is it somehow tied into this thing? I mean, probably every neighborhood in the country, probably around 2 a.m., something was happening that looks something like this. The problem is five miles away within an hour of a major of an abduction of anyone, not to mention Nancy Guthrie, that has to be taken to its logical conclusion.

1:24:38This is their priority. That's similar with the round head, with the beard. That's the right color and in the right place, like the facial hair. Yeah. I want to ask you guys about another development today. Hesitate to even raise it because it's just it seems such such obvious BS. But OK, let's talk about it. you remember yesterday we talked about the fact that TMZ had received a note, an email, from some third party saying, I'm not the kidnapper, but I know who it is. And I want somebody to give me one Bitcoin, which is worth about$65 ,000,$67 ,000, and I will tell you who the kidnapper is. So that didn't happen.

1:25:22Nobody gave him his Bitcoin. And then today, TMZ, this morning reported the following. They've received a new email from a person who claims to know the identity of Nancy Guthrie's kidnapper. They received the email just after 8 a.m. Pacific time Thursday, okay, so 11 o 'clock Eastern, and the person who sent the email claimed they are, quote, not being taken seriously, end quote, and they're not happy about that. They went on to say that, quote, he makes some ominous statements in the email. TMZ is cooperating with law enforcement by not disclosing specifics. One thing he makes clear, the situation has changed from Wednesday to Thursday.

1:26:00TMZ goes on to say, quote, as for why he wants a Bitcoin, he says he will need money to lay low after identifying the kidnapper for fear of retaliation. He also worries he might be incriminated, this is a quote, incriminated like that Carlos guy, meaning the delivery man who was detained and released the other day. The email reportedly ends with the sender saying this is their final attempt to, quote, help. By the way, they did also report that TMZ monitored the account that he had linked to. He did link to a Bitcoin account for his big deposit. And they said nothing was deposited. Nothing has been deposited thus far, at least as of the end of the day on Wednesday.

1:26:44So now he's mad. It didn't work. Is this an obvious joke or what does the FBI do with this? I just signed it to a new agent, but that's just me. The serious leads are going to be handled by the serious veteran agents and some new agents going to go. Oh, you mean like brand new to the FBI? Yeah, go over there to TMZ and shag this thing. I don't know. I'm saying that with a little bit of tongue in cheek, but come on. I mean, if the FBI ran out with everything they had, with everything like that, then they wouldn't be able to really find Pac-Man. which is a much more credible lead than this nonsense through TMZ for one Bitcoin.

1:27:26And I assure you there are psychics and mediums, et cetera, getting in touch with the family and even law enforcement. It's invariable when you work these kind of cases saying, you know, they'll do it. Well, they would like some money you could possibly help. They're also coming in free of charge. I'm sure that the body is within 50 miles of a body of water. Yeah. Or 25 miles of railroad tracks. and i'm just saying i'm not saying mrs guthrie is a body at this point but that's what kind of stuff they call in i've never had luck with a with a psychic in that regard so yeah this league you just have to say contact the fbi they'll give you at least fifty thousand dollars and they'll keep you anonymous this is a game being played locally somewhere in the u.s or somewhere overseas possibly even tied in to uh the other bitcoin people and their scam that they tried to run earlier.

1:28:15This is a federal offense. I mean, I think this is obstruction of justice, what they're doing here. They're distracting the FBI from solving an actual crime and purporting to have information that they, we believe, do not have. They're lying. And if they told that lie to the face of an FBI agent, it would be another crime. Go ahead, Will. I mean, I agree with the chaps. I mean, I've dealt with a number of ransom demands and coming through various different mediums. And there's always this kind of small amount that is requested. I know 65 ,000 doesn't sound like a small amount, but in relative terms, it's a very, very small amount.

1:28:48And if you have someone who is offering to basically say, well, I will give you all that critical information, I'll tell you where the hostage is, but is not able to provide any more substance or any more gravity to that claim. It is just white noise, it's just interference. And again, I agree with James entirely and fit that that's something which is batted off to one side. And there are many ways to trace it from an email account. There are lots of very surreptitious ways that I may have allegedly utilized in the past to try and identify the IP address and the actual user themselves. But again, there's a lot of information like what sort of email account?

1:29:25Is it a disposable one? Is it a secure one? You know, again, there's so much intelligence you can get just from those communications. Are you at all surprised, Will, that they haven't caught whoever's behind those other Bitcoin demands who is either pretending to be the kidnapper or possibly is the kidnapper? Are you surprised? Here we are 11 days in and they still haven't made an arrest there? Well, again, they may not have made an arrest. I mean, I certainly know that the authorities and most certainly the FBI will have the ability to reverse engineer blockchain. You know, blockchain used to be a very, very secure way of people being able to utilize, obviously, the exchange of bitcoins.

1:30:04And it was used very much by the dark web and it was used by various sort of illicit and criminal enterprises. But nowadays, you can actually reverse engineer and trace back who is the actual wallet owner. So there's a good chance. I mean, the chaps will probably be able to give you a better grasp on this. In my estimation, they probably may have arrested them or they're observing them to see whether they have any further intelligence value. Oh, well, that would be very good news. I will say this. My team is reminding me that TMZ has been getting all of these communications via an anonymous tip form.

1:30:38And that's what the other two news organizations, that's how I think why they were chosen, too, because, well, they're local. And they had anonymous tip lines, too. That's how this person has been going in. So like not through a traditional email exactly. I don't know. Maybe that makes it tougher. And if so, that person has some level of sophistication. You know, the Bitcoin person, the one who's asking for the money in USD. Yeah, maybe. I mean, I've not often, sorry, Jeff, so I'll just quickly in on this one. I know of enough organizations that have anonymous lines, whether it be for whistleblowing or otherwise, that aren't necessarily as anonymous as one might imagine.

1:31:19Not like when the feds are involved. OK, we'll do we'll do fits and then James. Go ahead. If I can add here sort of a public statement to everyone who's listening, if you have information about this case, we've said we've seen enough of abduction, man. You have nothing to worry about. I guarantee you're going to be safe. This is not some worldwide syndicate involved in this. This is not even organized crime. This is someone that if you have information, you know, call it, get away if you have to move out of a house for a few days. this will not come back to harm you. This guy is an opportunist, some pre-planning involved, perhaps, not a whole lot I think we're learning here, but this guy, besides what he did to Mrs.

1:32:01Guthrie, and hopefully she's still with us, I'm still keeping a positive outlook there, but this guy is probably more of a menace to himself than anything else, certainly any potential witnesses out there. So please contact the FBI. I put out some pointers yesterday with you, Megan, behavioral characteristics of what this guy's doing now. Please check those out. And that's what he's doing. That's what he's not doing. And this is going to be who he is. Go ahead, James. Oh, I just maybe shouldn't smile as much as I am, but it reminds me a lot of, you know, D.B. Cooper and Jimmy Hoffa. I mean, as an FBI agent, we probably didn't go a month without somebody coming forward and saying, I know who D.B.

1:32:41Cooper was. I know who he really was. Or I know exactly where Jimmy Hoffa's buried. And if you give me X, you know, I'll tell you, well, it never happened, you know, and just I'm just smiling about it because these cases bring out those types of people and those types of allegations, you know. I have to end it on this because there's a lot of speculation online and we've got a lot of emails about this, about the pacemaker. Because, you know, they keep going back to Annie and Tomas's house. And that could be because Annie and Tomas are suspects, or it could be because Nancy was there earlier the evening that she disappeared, and they think there's more clues somehow to glean.

1:33:22Many people have wondered, is it possible that they think she died there, that Nancy was killed earlier than we think, and that she died there? Now, I think that fell apart when we saw Abductor Man ringing the doorbell or messing with the doorbell. Like, the story that an abductor showed up is not fake. And I don't believe, I just don't believe there's any way she was killed earlier in the evening because, I mean, you guys tell me what you know. The pacemaker, the pacemaker would have shown an event. And a lot of people have been writing in saying the pacemaker doesn't stop just because the person's killed.

1:34:05Well, I know that. I know that, which is why there's some remote chance that if you took her phone and turned on the pacemaker app and started walking around Tucson, you might actually connect with the pacemaker, even if Nancy is no longer with us. I mean, the odds are slim. You have to be, I've heard, any place from 10 feet to 30 feet in order for them to sink. But I'm not saying that the pacemaker, it's not about whether the pacemaker goes dormant when the person has died. But I have yet to find a cardiologist or anesthesiologist to tell me anything other than if the heart has any sort of a major event, including that it stops beating, that it wouldn't communicate that to the phone.

1:34:51So obviously there'd be no communication after 228 on the night she went missing because they had stopped syncing. But prior to that point, we're told by law enforcement they were syncing. There was no problem with the pacemaker syncing with the phone. And so even with a delay in download information, you know, like if the last information went at 227, it might take an hour or two for it to actually download that onto the phone because I guess there's some sort of a lag in the delay. you would know if the heart had stopped beating, if this patient's heart completely stopped. I just can't get past that.

1:35:27And clearly law enforcement agrees with me or this whole thing is a wild goose chase. If that sheriff, and I'm sure he spoke to the pacemaker doctor, to the cardiologist, and knows exactly how it works in this case, there is no way the FBI would be putting us through all of this, if they really had reason to believe she died, that Nancy's no longer with us? Why would he be saying, I have to believe she's alive, that she's still out there, and talking with the family about doing the hostage videos and all that? You guys just tell me once and for all, do you have any reason to believe that law enforcement thinks she died prior to 2.28 a.m.?

1:36:12I see no indications of law enforcement believe that. I agree with Fitz. Yeah, likewise. I mean, so what that answers for me is, A, Nancy Guthrie had the scare of her life when that man showed up in her bedroom in the wee hours of that morning. and B, the reason they are going back to Annie's and Tommaso's house all the time, I think, is they're wondering if they had anything to do with it. I just don't like, I don't understand why you'd be interviewing the neighbors over and over and over. And Phil Holloway is out there for us. We didn't get to this in his hit, but he's been talking to the neighbors and the neighbors told him that they keep getting asked about Annie and Tommaso and what are they like?

1:37:00You know, this is what the FBI and the sheriff's deputies are asking the neighbors. And he also mentioned, for what it's worth, that they're very interested in, like, a phone. Have they seen evidence of any phone anywhere? You know, maybe they're looking for evidence of, you know, that the guy may have dropped, et cetera. Anyway, I don't mean to condemn them, but I just think, like, that's them doing their shoe leather FBI work. Is it not? Like, we've talked about family, friends, associates, neighbors, whatever. and there's no reason to be asking the neighbors what these two are like, going back there time and time again, if you're not potentially interested in them.

1:37:37Yeah. I mean, there's one question that's sort of been raised in the back of my mind, Megan, which, again, I'd be interested in the other chaps and what they have to say, is whether the network has been contacted, the cellular network, to actually do the mapping from the cell towers near to, obviously, Nancy's house, and also to the sister's house to determine obviously the IMEIs of whichever cell phones were in the area at that particular time. And I know certainly in terms of geolocation, you can get it down to 50 feet if obviously there are sufficient cell towers in the area. So we're not looking at enormous amounts of space, but you can isolate it.

1:38:16And the intelligence agencies over here in the UK, for example, have used that very efficiently to detect terrorists, for example, who have been using burner cells, but they've got their own cells with them when they've been detected, obviously, going off and making those calls rather than leaving their own cell phones behind. So I'd be interested to see what cell phone data has been gathered by, obviously, the Bureau and what information is isolating it. Maybe certain recognized cell phones have been identified, all the IMEIs. Go ahead, Fitz. Megan, if we've discussed this before, I forget. How many children does Annie and Tommaso have and how old are they?

1:38:58I don't remember. I don't know the answer to that. They would be a valuable source of information. And depending on their age, there are experts within the FBI, and they certainly contract with people that have expertise in interviewing children. Now, it would be very interesting if they would permit their children to be independently interviewed by professions. Yeah. And again, I'm not casting excursions here. I don't know. No. But just to get every single bit of this story lined up. What did you hear mommy say? Daddy say? Grandmom? How was it that night? So they would be we don't we haven't heard anything about that.

1:39:34At least I haven't. But I certainly want to know. I would certainly want to know if they've been interviewed. And I would they would be the investigators would have been a remiss if they haven't taken them apart. It was interesting in the Ramsey case, JonBenet Ramsey, they wouldn't let him be a Burke be interviewed for months and months at a time. Finally, they did, you know, a seed to it. So I'm assuming this will be different. But I would like to know what those kids have to say. And as I said earlier on, as a young police officer working homicide cases well before the Internet, you learn so much about people with extended family, friends, neighbors, workmates, schoolmates.

1:40:11There's just so much there. Doesn't mean anyone's guilty of a crime, but did someone have an affair and not admit to it? Do they have someone on the side, a boy or a girlfriend, and they lie about that at first? Well, why did you lie? Well, I don't want my wife finding out. I don't want my husband finding out. I'm not saying that's what happened here with Annie and Tommaso, but there's going to be some things uncomfortable for them to admit that they're going to have to. Agents have to look that down. It doesn't mean they were involved in the death of their mother or mother-in-law, but there's a lot that we're not hearing about this, and the kids may know something.

1:40:43Parade Magazine reports that they have one son together, but we don't know how old he is. I think they only got married 2006. I think they got married in 2006. So I suppose if you assume they didn't have children until they got married, he's no more than 20 years old. He could be younger than that. I don't know. There's been precious little information about who else is living in that house or even really about them. There's really not much information at all about them. She's a poet. He's a part-time middle school teacher and a band member. They don't have a lot of money. I mean, that's got to be clear.

1:41:22Everybody knows a poet and a part-time middle school teacher are not rich. They live in a nice house, but I think it could be one of those situations where it's just appreciated because it's worth in the mid$600 ,000 range. I don't know how they're supporting themselves. I mean, I think very few poets are, you know, Joseph Massey is the official poet of the Megyn Kelly show. He's constantly writing about how difficult it is to pay your bills as a poet. So I don't think it's a lucrative profession. I'm sure they're looking at their finances. And the dynamics of a sibling who's a multimillionaire, again, no one's accusing them of anything.

1:41:58And sometimes that cause problems in the family. it's possible. Well, you'd be talking about it. I mean, I guess that's really what we're getting to as you guys as agents, wouldn't that be a part of the discussion? You got the one sister who has no money and you got the other one who's got tens of millions of dollars. And the one sister's doing all the hard labor with the mom and the other sister's not. And maybe there's resentment there. You know, they don't, they're not telegraphing that they're telegraphing closeness. But I mean, And I've told you this before, I've told the audience before, everything you see telegraphed from the Today Show about how close everybody is, is a lie.

1:42:36It is a lie, trust me. They are about building images over there to sell ads. I mean, that's truly what it is. I was there, I was on the inside, I was asked to be part of this. So you can't go by what you see in like the family reels about how tight everybody is. That's bullshit TV, fake stuff. So we don't know what's what, But I can see that dynamic potentially causing some resentment. And I'm sure you tell me, James, you take it, like, would that be something the FBI is kicking around and then looking into? Yeah, I think, first of all, I will come back to Will's point in a second. But let's let's key in on where you were, Megan, talking about motive.

1:43:16You know, we always kind of start there. You know, who who has motive? Who would want this individual hurt? And invariably, you look at the family. Invariably, you look at, you know, who saw them last, in this case, the family. And then you just mentioned a lot of dynamics that add even more intrigue to the family. And so certainly that's a line. But just as you're saying that, I guess, the Today Show is not all as rosy as it appears, you know, that happens also in these big cases. OK, so they're going to go and have press conferences and they're going to use words like partners and the FBI and our partners.

1:43:51And that's all fine. But at the end of the day, someone is behind the scenes actually driving case strategy. And hopefully that is a symbiotic relationship right now and not dispersed where the sheriff's office is doing one thing. The FBI is doing one thing. Maybe the state police is doing one thing. That's a recipe for disaster. So you need to have some consistency with regards to the strategy. And certainly, you know, if I was running it, you'd have a group of investigators who are OK. you have the family, right? Then you have another group of investigators who are handling these crazy ass leads that are coming in about, you know, the TMZ, whatever, right?

1:44:29You got that. And then you got a bucket of investigators who are going out looking for a black glove on the side of the road, right? But somebody's got it behind all of them. Yeah. Somebody behind all that is driving case strategy, right? And so that what we're doing is we're not spending so much, and I've seen this happen, and Fisk might have seen this too, where the agents are really working on a certain credible lead, and then you find that the headshed, in our case, the SAC and the ASAC, are running their own part of the investigation and doing interviews you don't even know about. That happened to me on a big case we were working in.

1:45:02That's frustrating as hell. But yeah, certainly those things that you mentioned are being looked at with regards to families. That's just how it is. I mean, JonBenet Ramsey is a great example. And dovetailing that That's where Will is going. Yes, with the cell phones. And yes, the FBI has their own unit that just does those types of things. That's really all I'm going to really say about it. But I will say, knowing that technology, I am concerned that here we are 12 days later and we don't have her body. That makes me very nervous because I've been involved in cases where we never got her back.

1:45:35I can name one right now in South Carolina that we never got her back. And we think we know who did it. But that's what makes me nervous is I really would hope we'd have a break by now and something. Yeah, I think keeping on the I mean, Megan, another thing which was crossing my mind. And again, I'd be interested, obviously, in everybody's thoughts on this is that I certainly know of a number of people who have pacemakers and who are in a fairly volatile or certainly delicate disposition. And the sister being so close and certainly being involved in trying to assist, obviously, and provide support to Nancy, that maybe Nancy, did she have an emergency response tag, which she can press in the event that she may be having a heart attack or is in distress or falls over, like a lot of seniors will have, and whether they had that technology and whether that was utilized.

1:46:31That's a good question. I haven't heard anything about the emergency response necklace. and it's a good question though because that'd be your first move if somebody came into your bedroom in the middle of the night they haven't mentioned anything about it which suggests to me maybe not and they did say that while she was limited physically I mean she could move she was she had a cane she wasn't like wheelchair bound so it is I don't know it's possible she didn't opt for that it's one of those things the medic alert it's like one of those before and after moments when you know you know you're getting old my mom put it at when Mr.

1:47:03Rogers starts to look hot That's when she knew she'd crossed over to the dark side. Well, God bless her. God bless my mom. God bless Nancy. And the prayers continue as we await going into day 12 better news on this investigation. Guys, thank you all so much. You're so welcome. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Really grateful. Wow, what a panel. They're so great. We're so lucky. All right, we're going to leave it there for today, but we will be back tomorrow with any updates and relevant information. And if you have any thoughts you want to share with us, please send them to me. It's Megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at MeganKelley.com.

1:47:39We'll talk to you tomorrow.

1:47:43Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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