Bryan Kohberger's Explosive Sentencing: Roommates Speak Out, Families Give Victim Statements, with Howard Blum, Phil Holloway, and Matt Murphy | Ep. 1114

23:32The people I looked up to and adored more than anyone. He took away my ability to trust the world around me. What he did shattered me in places I didn't know could break. I was barely 19 when he did this. We had just celebrated my birthday at the end of September. I should have been figuring out who I was. I should have been having the college experience and starting to establish my future. Instead, I was forced to learn how to survive the unimaginable. I couldn't be alone.

24:14I had to sleep in my mom's bed because I was too terrified to close my eyes. terrified that if I blinked, someone might be there. I made escape plans everywhere I went. If something happens, how do I get out? What can I use to defend myself? Who can I help? Then there are the panic attacks. The kind that slam into me like a tsunami out of nowhere. I can't breathe. I can't think. I can't stop shaking.

24:53all I can do is scream because the emotional pain and the grief is too much to handle my chest feels like escaping in

25:05sometimes I drop to the floor with my heart racing convinced something is very wrong It's far beyond anxiety. It's my body reliving everything over and over again. My nervous system never got the message that it is over, and it won't let me forget what he did to them. People call me strong. They say I'm a survivor, but they don't see what my new reality looks like. They don't see the panic attacks, the hypervigilance, the exhaustion, the way I scan every room I enter, the way I flinch at sudden sounds. They don't know how heavy it is to carry so much pain and still be expected to keep going, and that's because of him.

25:55He still parts of me I may never get back. He took the version of me who didn't constantly ask, what if it happens again? What if next time I don't survive?

26:19he may have shattered parts me but I'm still putting myself back together piece by piece I'm learning how to live in this new version of life it is not easy it hurts but I'm still trying still trying and I'm not trying just for me I'm trying for them, my friends. About a year ago, I had a dream about them. I got to say goodbye. I told them I won't be able to see you again, so I need to tell you goodbye. They all kept asking why, and all I could say was, I can't tell you, but I have to. When I woke up, I felt shattered and heartbroken, but also strangely grateful, Like maybe in some way that dream gave us the goodbye we never got.

27:11Still no dream can replace them. And no goodbye will ever feel finished. He is a hollow vessel. Something less than human. A body without empathy. Without remorse. He chose destruction. He chose evil. He feels nothing. He tried to take everything from me. My friends, my safety, my identity, my future. He took their lives, but I will continue trying to be like them to make them proud. Living is how I honor them. Speaking today is to help me find some sort of justice for them. And I will never let him take that from me. He may have taken so much from me, but he will never get to take my voice. He will never take the memories I had with him.

28:11He will never erase the love we shared, the laughs we had, or the way they made me feel seen and whole. Those things are mine. They are sacred. And he will never touch them. I get to feel sadness. I get to feel rage. I get to feel joy even when it's hard. I get to feel love even when it hurts. I get to live. And while I will still live with this pain, at least I get to live my life. He will stay here, empty, forgotten, and powerless.

28:48Jill, thank you so much for your courage. I appreciate it.

29:04Next we have members from the Madison Mogan family. First would be Scott Laramie, Madison Mogan's stepfather.

29:26I'm standing by home as Karen Laramie, Joseph's mother. Thank you, Your Honor.

29:36My name is Scott Laramie. I'm Maddie Morgan's stepfather and the husband of Maddie's mother. Karen Laramie. I will read this victim impact statement on behalf of Karen and myself. Maddie was our gift of life, our purpose, and our hope. Maddie quickly became Karen's joy, identity, and purpose in life. My joy in Maddie's life when she was two and a half years old experience transformed me into a life of joy, love, and family.

30:15Maddie was bright, beautiful, kind, empathic. She listened carefully to others and was observant, seeing and caring about the hearts and the minds of all she encountered. She loved music and music festivals. She had a wonderful sense of humor. She excelled in school. She was an easy child to raise, almost never requiring discipline, and almost always giving us parental joy. One time Karen remembers disciplining Maddie as a little girl. Maddie responded, you broke my heart. which, of course, melted ours. She had a keen wit, even at that young age. As she transitioned into teenage years, she prioritized us and extended family over many of the distractions that capture teenagers.

31:27She showered us with her presence and love at family events, barbecues, picnics, birthdays. holidays and others. She spent countless hours with her papa, her uncle David, and Nadine, and her other close family and friends.

31:51This world was a better place with her in it. As she reached adulthood, Maddie applied her studies to be a marketing professional. entering into an internship at Payne West and started planning a professional future. As with all things, she involved Karen and myself in the joy of her journey. As she transitioned into womanhood, Karen and I continued to be astounded at this wonderful and accomplished person we had created. All parents dream of their children accomplishing more than them. we realized this dream all we had not become she was becoming karen and i are ordinary people but we lived extraordinary lives because we had maddie maddie was taken senselessly and brutally in a sudden act of evil she was taken along with the young, promising, and bright lives of Kaylee, Zanna, and Ethan.

33:06First we felt disbelief. Next we felt disorientation. Then we felt grief overcome us. our grief has compounded even more for the incaldas, cronodal, and chapin families. We speak of hope and healing, and we do have hope and some healing. But the vast emotional wound will never fully heal. Since Maddie's loss, there's emptiness in our hearts, home, and family, an endless void. after losing your mother in a car crash Karen took Karen took to grieve Karen took years to grieve and recover the feeling that her life with Maddie and they was perfect helped her to start to heal now this is no longer perfect after Maddie's loss Karen felt like she was spinning out emotionally collapsing into anxiety and depression.

34:22She sometimes asks, how am I supposed to go on when I've lost my favorite person in the world? I felt the same, and we continue to struggle.

34:37The loss of Maddie has impacted so many beyond our family. Her second family is her sorority sisters who grieve alongside us. She has so many close friends who suffer from her loss. We will continue to be...

35:02Her loss will continue to be felt by the Vandal community, including Vandal Solutions on campus where she volunteered. her time for others.

35:19It helps us to know that he is in heaven now, freed from the trials of this earth. We, however, continue to live on without the grace and support of her presence. We will grow old without our only child, our bright, beautiful friend and daughter. In the end, there are no words that can accurately capture the devastation of losing Maddie. We will endure and we will go on. For Maddie, we will not let our grief consume us. For Maddie, we will continue to love and care for our family and friends, including the families of Kaylee, Santa, and Ethan. We will remain united with them. We can only hope that others out there suffering similar losses can look to us and see that we can overcome hatred, darkness, and evil.

36:26We know the law allows us to comment on the defendant and the sentence. As for a sentence, we support the plea agreement. Society needs to be protected against this evil. As for the defendant, we will not waste words, nor will we fall into hatred and bitterness. Evil has many faces, and we now know this, but evil does not deserve our time and attention.

37:03We are done being victims. We are taking back our lives.

37:12We will turn our time, talents, and attention to hope, healing, and helping others and to the future. We invite all those who have suffered with us on this to join us in our journey. We can make this world a better place. We can move on from tragedy. adversity will visit us evil will visit us but we will overcome we can and will endure karen and i express our gratitude to your honor and to the prosecution team for allowing us the opportunity to make this statement thank you thank you so much for your courage and i am so sorry for your loss god bless your honor

38:24Your Honor, this is Leander James. He's the attorney for the Mogan family and victim advocate. He'll be reading a statement for Karen Laramie.

38:37May it please the court, counsel? My name is Leander James. I am the pro bono counsel for Karen and Scott Laramie. Karen has asked me to read this statement into the record.

38:52I thank my husband, Scott, for his statement, his courage, and his unending love and support during this dark time. While words are inadequate to capture the impact of this horrific crime on our family, he expressed it as best anyone could. For Maddie's sake, I will add my supplement statement that incorporates additional impact in the context of my extended family. I am grateful to Maddie's great uncle, Brian Caulfield, for assisting me with the difficult, difficult task of putting our pain into words. for me and my extended family maddie was our hope and our light her beauty both outside and in shone its light upon everyone with whom she came in contact her beauty both uh pardon me she carried that hope and light into the future for our entire family we have memories of our Maddie and grief and pain at her being taken from our presence.

39:58Any one of us would have given our own light to have been outshone by hers. We now look to our creator to know that her light continues where we look to see her in his presence. Those who commit evil for their own twisted gains and purposes truly defile the efforts and sacrifices of mothers, fathers, families, teachers, clergy, public servants, service members, and all those who commit themselves to the greater good, freedoms, and the future light of our nation. Condemnation falls heavily upon those who squandered the lives of our future hopes and dreams. Some may offer forgiveness for what the defendant has done.

40:51However, we cannot at this time, or perhaps ever, nor will we ask for mercy for what he has done. His acts are too heinous. The agony and grief he has caused too great. But we will waste no further words or thoughts on him. For Maddie's sake, we will move on. We will do our best to carry Maddie's light into this world and make it a better place. I thank the court and the prosecution for allowing me the opportunity to make my statement. And I thank all those who have and will support my family and the families of Kaylee, Zanna, and Ethan. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Slarman. Appreciate it.

41:55Next is Ben Mogan, the father of Maddie Mogan. Yes, of course. Actually, Your Honor, it'll be Kim Cheely, the grandmother of Maddie Mogan.

42:20My name is Kim Cheely. I was Maddie Mogan's paternal grandmother, as Ben Mogan, her father, is my son. I'm here today with my sister Lori Cheely, Maddie's great-aunt, and my son, Ben Mogan, and my daughter-in-law, Corey Hatrock. I'd like to begin by thanking a number of people involved in bringing this case to closure. In my daughter's words, the plea deal the prosecution team reached this month is one that punishes the perpetrator of this horrendous crime, protects the public from further harm, and allows all of us who knew and loved these kids the time to grieve without the anxiety of the long and gruesome trial, the years of appeals and potential for mistrials along the way.

43:14My family and I are so grateful to Bill Thompson and his prosecution team for their dedication and painstaking work that forced the perpetrator to admit his guilt. We want to thank the Idaho State Police, the Moscow Police Department, the FBI, Judge Hippler. We'd also like to thank the University of Idaho officials who have treated the families of the victims with such dignity and kindness and who have honored the four victims beautifully. Maddie was my first grandchild, so when she was born, all her grandparents had the distinct pleasure of deciding what we'd like to be called. I chose Nana, pretty original.

44:05But when Maddie was about a year and a half old, her papa, Ben's dad, and I were planning to visit the new little family in Oregon. Maddie didn't have an extensive vocabulary at the time, but for some unknown reason, she called bananas Ba-deedle-deedles. When Karen and Ben told her Nana was coming to visit, she figured, I say Deedle Deedle for that word. So I became Deedle Deedle, shortened to Deedle when she was about six or seven. And I was Deedle all her life. I don't think her stepdad, Scotty, ever knew my given name was Kim. um maddie's and my birthdays were one day apart and a couple years before she was killed she gave me this necklace with deedle and maddie engraved on it and i added an angel wing and it's one of my treasured possessions i also got an angel wing tattoo never thought i'd see the day, but along with many members of our family replicating the one that Maddie and her sorority sisters had.

45:21I wanted mine where I could see and touch it often. From preschool through grade school, I stopped teaching piano lessons early on Wednesdays and picked Maddie up for bubble baths, brownies, and books. It was our special time together, and she went home those nights in her jammies with a pan of warm brownies for her family. Although Karen and Scotty raised Maddie and did such a lovely job of parenting, we Mogens were lucky to have her for holidays and many other family gatherings. We'll always have our treasured memories of Maddie growing up in our big extended cooperative family. And I thank Karen and Scotty Laramie for being so generous and open and sharing Maddie with her Mogan side of the family.

46:19When the four kids were murdered, the foundation fell out of our world. Initially, the fear was truly debilitating. The first six weeks were excruciating, despite the vigils, memorials, candlelight gatherings of students, friends, family, community members. After the arrest in the past two and a half years, my family has lived with grief, with the effects of traumatic grief, of which I was blissfully unaware before all of this. I now have a stack of books on grief. I've attended grief classes at hospice. I've tried EMDR, a technique that helps replace disturbing visions with something more comforting.

47:14My son Ben, his two sisters, Maddie's aunts, and I have all experienced depression and anxiety and sleep disturbance, requiring medical intervention at times. We've all sought counseling off and on. The struggle with media attention was extremely difficult, especially for Ben. no one should live through the violent murder of one's child. Some days it's beyond me how the parents of these kids are still upright. I'm thankful for the strong families and communities that are supporting the survivors. At the time, I could think of only two blessings surrounding the horrific murders. One was that Ben was living with my partner Tom and me at the time, and that we could support each other emotionally through it all.

48:17Sadly, Tom died a year ago of a rare brain cancer, and he won't be here to see justice served. He was our family's rock, and we all miss him every day. A second blessing is that my mother died of COVID several months before the kids were killed, and she didn't have to live through the horror. It was difficult to identify blessings. So we've all lost our dear child and a future with her. I ache for the loss of the dreams that she and her true love, Jake, held. and my heart goes out to Karen and Scotty and your side of Maddie's family. You've had more than your share of loss.

49:09My heart aches for the kids' roommates and the families of the other victims and also the family of the perpetrator.

49:28going forward, we Mogans are choosing to put our energy and focus into honoring Maddie's too short life and sweet spirit by celebrating Maddie May Day, which my two daughters established. On May 25th each year, Maddie's birthday, we encourage folks to do random acts of kindness in Maddie's name. In my daughter Katie's words, may we all protect our peace in whatever way possible, unite in community, and focus on joy. Please do an act in kindness in Maddie's honor during this week so a glimmer of Maddie's light may live on. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate your courage and bless you and your family.

50:26Thank you.

50:32Now it's Ben Mogan, Maddie Mogan's father.

50:49And Benjamin Mogan and Maddie's dad.

51:04First, I just want to say thanks to all the people that helped bring this all to a close. I know it's not the resolution that everyone wanted, But I think that everyone worked so hard, and we really appreciate all their efforts. It was such a hard thing to go through for everybody.

51:39Maddie was my only child that I ever had. And she was the only great thing I ever really did and the only thing I was really ever proud of. And I thought we would have the rest of our lives together to be together and know each other. And I really took for granted the time she was in college. and I thought, oh, well, we'll have the rest of our lives to do all the stuff that we're supposed to do. And she was just about done. She actually earned all of her credits for her college degree. Karen and Scotty and I got to go and get her diploma that she actually earned. She served every bit of that. But I thought that that was going to be just the beginning of a long life together.

53:08And we never got that.

53:15Karen and Scotty did such a great job racing her after Karen. and I split up, and I'm so thankful for Scotty and the role that he played in her life when I wasn't able to. But we got to spend a lot of great times together, Maddie and I. She was my favorite person to go to a concert with, and we got to see some fun shows together. I told her, if there's ever a show that you want to go to, let me know, and I'll get you tickets for you and your friend. Or if we want to go together, we'll make it happen. And my favorite memory with her was when the Mac Miller show sold out here in Spokane. And everyone wanted tickets.

54:08No one could get them. And on the last day before the show, they did a radio thing. And I got four meet and greet tickets for Maddie and her friends. and me to go and see the show. And that was her favorite artist at the time was Mac Miller. And he's gone now too. And my little cousin, Zach, drove us all there that night. And he's gone too, tragically. And yeah.

54:40Anyway, the last thing that she ever wrote to me was this Father's Day card. and I'm so glad I still have it. I'm just going to read what she said. It says, Happy Father's Day. I hope you have the best day. I can't wait till we can hang out again soon. I'll be in Coeur d 'Alene 624 to 74. Hopefully we can find a time then. I love your birthday card that you sent me, by the way. Maybe we can see a concert sometime soon. I'd love to see the gorge when it's not so smoky out. I hope you're doing well. I'm proud of how far you've come. Thank you for always encouraging me to do my best. Love you lots and lots.

55:29Love, Maddie Mae. She did encourage me to not just to do my best, but to live on. And I went through a lot of issues with addiction and with substance abuse. And when I wasn't wanting to live anymore, she was what would keep me from just not caring anymore. and knowing that she was out there and that she was just such a beautiful person kept me alive a lot of rough moments. And I'm so glad that she was able to meet Jake. He was the only one that actually ever got to take her to the gorge. They went and saw Watershed together. Yeah, they had a heck of a time. I'm glad she got to. That's a really special place for me.

56:33And I always wanted, she always wanted to work out there with me in the summer sometime. And she never got to, but at least she got to see it once with Jake. He was such a great guy. He is such a great guy. And I really wanted to see what a future with them would have looked like.

57:03I'll never be able to replace her. I wrote a bunch of stuff. I just don't know what to say right now. I just miss her so much and I just love her so much more than anything.

57:27This shouldn't have happened.

57:32Death sentences is one thing. You know when it's going to happen and it's going to be all gentle and stuff. life without parole with a room building full of people that all just want you to not be around anymore, winking at every morning, not knowing if that's the day they're going to pull your card. I mean, that's not a very nice sentence either. So, you know, I don't, I don't know. I just love and Maddie, and I wish you were still here. Thank you so much.

58:19Your Honor, next would be members from the Kaylee Gonsalves family. First will be her father, Steve Gonsalves.

58:43Today, we are here to finish what you started.

58:50Today, you've lost control. Today, we are here to prove to the world that you picked the wrong families. the wrong state the wrong police officers the wrong community you tried to break our community apart you tried to plant fear you tried to divide us you failed instead your actions have united everyone in their disgust for you i just learned from these lead investigators to their shock They worked in an investigation and actually worked with Pennsylvania police officers and the federal FBI. You united everyone. Everyone was united after you. None of us are divided. We are united in our disgust and our love for these children.

59:56today you have no name because when this all started we all came together and we said let's stop even talking about his name just use initials so even the media just calls you bk that's all you are looking back when the police officers knocked on my door told me what happened to my child told me what happened to maddie may I don't think he was even out of the driveway before my kids turned around and looked at me and said, what do we do, Dad? I told him, you get to work. You get your ass to work. And we started calling. We started texting. We started emailing. And you know what? Within hours, within hours, we had your white car and camera.

1:00:48We knew. We knew from the very beginning we had you. Welcome, everyone. This is Megan Kelly. We are in live coverage here of the sentencing hearing for Brian Kohlberger, confessed killer of the Idaho Four. And Steve Gonsalves is speaking now. Father Kaylee. You're a joke. Complete joke.

1:01:13But we took this disaster and we did what we could We put everything online we took our kids we took our images we took everything that they did their videos their photos the girls pranks Ethan singing we put it out there. We shared it with the world and the world's united and And all they ended up, when they talked about this case, is they talked about Kaylee, Jade, Maddie Mae, Zanna, and Ethan.

1:01:48Everything what these people meant to us, a father, a mother, a brother, a sister, we shared that with our community. Then we shared it with our state, we shared it with the country, and eventually we shared it with the world. The world's watching because of the kids, not because of you. Nobody cares about you. You're not worth the time, the effort to be remembered. In time, you will be nothing but two initials forgotten to the wind. No visitors, nothing more than initials on an otherwise unmarked tombstone. From this moment, we've all started

1:02:37From this moment, we will forget you. We want to all leave in closing one last thing. You picked the wrong family, and we're laughing at you on your trip to the pen that will be today or tomorrow. I'll close with, God bless all the men and women that worked on this case and all the hard work that you guys did. You guys allowed us to grieve and allowed us to get through this. The amount of work that you guys put together and the way that you guys put it together was beautiful. There was hard times to be expected. But thank you all. God bless. Thank you.

1:03:27Your honor next is Steven Goncalves, Kaylee's brother.

1:03:36I'm Stephen's actually going to pass. I'm going to go. Olivia Gonzalez, Kaylee's sister.

1:03:46Hello. I'd like to start by thanking the court for allowing me the time and opportunity to speak today. My name is Olivia, and I'm the big sister of Kaylee Gonzalez, and I was blessed to love Madison Mogan as a sister, too. I'm not here today to speak in grief. I'm here to speak in truth. Because the truth is, my sister Kaylee and her best friend Maddie were not yours to take. They were not yours to study, to stalk, or to silence. They were two pieces of a whole, the perfect yin and yang. They are everything that you could never be. Loved, accepted, vibrant, accomplished, brave, and powerful. because the truth about Kaylee and Maddie is they would have been kind to you.

1:04:33If you had approached them in their everyday lives, they would have given you directions, thanked you for the compliment, or awkwardly giggled to make your own words less uncomfortable for you. In a world that rejected you, they would have shown mercy because the truth is I'm angry. Every day I'm angry. I'm left shouting at the inside of my own head everything I wish I could say to you. The truth about me is when I heard the news, I didn't cry. I listened for them. I promised them I would. That I would fight for them. That I would show up, no matter what it cost me. I swore I'd never let them feel alone.

1:05:24because, you see, I've always been their heavyweight. I've always been the one to fight the battles they didn't feel ready to fight themselves. All it ever took was a call, and they knew I would handle it for them, no matter the time, no matter the cost. They could wave their white flag because they knew I would never back down, not for them, and not even death could change that. Somewhere along the line, I started to think about what I would say to them if I was given just one last chance. If I could gather enough heartbreak or love or sacrifice or whatever it took to get just one message across.

1:06:05What would I say? Throughout this entire process, I've written my feelings down at every moment. My wishes, my love, my denial, my anger. And as one final act of love, I'd planned to read these thoughts, even jarring and discombobulating and not even making sense. Because for me, that was true love, as bare and as naked as it could be, not laced in pretty words or dressed for the occasion, but written through bleary eyes at 2 a.m. with clenched fists, angry at this reality. My true final act of love was to continue on without them, for them. That dream to read aloud my love to them, to bring meaning through pain, was the latest blow in realizing you don't deserve it.

1:07:04And Kaylee and Maddie don't need it. Kaylee and Maddie have always known my love, and they would never ask me to prove it by further victimizing myself to a defendant who has shown no guilt, no remorse, no apprehension. They would say to me, why would you give the satisfaction of showing vulnerability now? You promised you would never back down. And for that clarity, I'm thankful. I won't stand here and give you what you want. I won't offer you tears. I won't offer you trembling. Disappointments like you thrive on pain, on fear, and on the illusion of power. and I won't feed your beast. Instead, I will call you what you are, sociopath, psychopath, murderer.

1:07:58I will ask the questions that reverberate violently in my own head so loudly that I can't think straight most any day. Some of these might be familiar, so sit up straight when I talk to you. How was your life right before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were thinking and feeling at this time. Why did you choose my sisters? Before making your move, did you approach my sisters? Detail what you were thinking and feeling. Before leaving their home, is there anything else you did? How does it feel to know the only thing you failed more miserably at than being a murderer is trying to be a rapper?

1:08:52Did you recently start shaving or manually pulling out your eyebrows? Why November 13th? Did you truly think your Amazon purchase was untraceable because you used a gift card? How do you find it enjoyable to stargaze with such a severe case of visual snow? Where is the murder weapon? The clothes you wore that night? What did you bring into the house with you? What was the second weapon you used on Kaylee? What were Kaylee's last words? Please describe in detail the level of anxiety you must have felt when you heard the bear cat pull up to your family home on December 30, 2022. Which do you regret more?

1:09:47Returning to the crime scene five hours later? Or never, ever going back to Moscow? Not even once? After stalking them there for months? If you were really smart, do you think you'd be here right now? what's it like needing this much attention just to feel real you're terrified of being ordinary aren't you do you feel anything at all or are you exactly what you always feared nothing if you're so powerful then why are you still hiding defendant you see i'm here today as me but who are you? Let's try to take off your mask and see. You didn't create devastation. You revealed it in yourself and that darkness you carry, that emptiness, you'll sit with it long after this is over.

1:10:49That is your sentence and it was written on the wall long before you ever pled guilty.

1:10:58You didn't win. You just exposed yourself as the coward you are. You're a delusional, pathetic, hypochondriac loser who thought you were so much smarter than everybody else.

1:11:14Constantly scolding, turning your nose up to grammar mistakes, nitpicking, and criticizing others. You wanted so badly to be different, to be special, to be better, to be deep, to be mysterious. You found yourself thinking you were better than everyone else, and you thought you could figure out the human psyche and see through it, all while tweaked out on heroin. Lurking in the shadows made you feel powerful because no one ever paid you any attention in the light. You thought you were exceptional, all because of a grade on a paper. You thought you were elite because your online IQ test from 2010 told you so.

1:11:53All of that effort just to seem important. It's desperate. There is a name for your condition, though. Your inflated ego just didn't allow you to see it. Wannabe. You act like no one could ever understand your mind. But the truth is, you're basic. You're a textbook case of insecurity disguised as control. Your patterns are predictable. Your motives are shallow. You are not profound. You're pathetic. You aren't special or deep, not mysterious or exceptional. Don't ever get it twisted again. No one is scared of you today. No one is intimidated by you. No one is impressed by you. No one thinks that you are important.

1:12:41You orchestrated this like you thought you were God. Now look at you, begging a courtroom for scraps. You spent months preparing, and still all it took was my sister and a sheath. You worked so hard to seem dangerous, but real control doesn't have to prove itself. The truth is, the scariest part about you is how painfully average you turned out to be. The truth is, as dumb as they come, stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty. Let me be very clear. Don't ever try to convince yourself you mattered just because someone finally said your name out loud. I see through you. You want the truth? Here's the one you'll hate the most.

1:13:36If you hadn't attacked them in their sleep, in the middle of the night, like a pedophile, Kaylee would have kicked your fucking ass. Thank you. Thank you.

1:14:09Next is Christy Goncalves, Kaylee Goncalves' mother.

1:14:28Just relax. That did great.

1:14:41Thank you, Your Honor. I never imagined having to speak to someone so devoid of humanity. For a long time, I didn't think I'd find the words low enough to meet you where you are. But now I realize this isn't about you. It's about what you've done to me, and I need you to hear it. When you murdered my daughter, Kaylee Jade Gonzalez, you didn't just take her life. You shattered others. You attacked what you could never be. And in doing so, you left a trail of devastation far beyond that house. You stole my peace. You've altered my every waking moment, every sleepless night, the way I view the world, people, safety, trust.

1:15:34It's all been changed by your cruelty. I no longer recognize parts of myself. Joy is harder to find. Laughter feels foreign. The world moves forward, but I'm suspended in a place of sorrow and rage. You've taken from me something that can never be restored. The grief sits with me every day, some days quietly, and other days so loud it drowns out everything else. The emotional toll you've inflicted on me is immeasurable. I live with a constant ache with birthdays that are now memorials, with holidays that feel hollow, with empty chairs that scream louder than words ever could. I am forever changed.

1:16:18But for you, as a person working on a Ph.D. in criminal justice, you really didn't think this one through. You're not that good. In fact, you're not that good at anything. You couldn't secure a job. You couldn't get along with others. You couldn't even get a female to look in your direction. All because you are pathetic.

1:16:46Now you're a joke in this courtroom. I wish I could crown you with a jester hat to complete your orange jumpsuit clown look. A dead killer doesn't kill again. so while I'm disappointed the firing shot won't get to take their shots at you, I'm confident that the men in prison will have their way with you in more ways than one. You will finally get what you wanted, physical touch, just probably not how you were expecting it. See, you haven't beat the system. You've simply entered a new one where the rules are cruel and the consequences will never end.

1:17:30You are entering a place where no one will care who you are and no one will ever respect you. You will be forgotten, discarded, used, and erased. You will always be remembered as a loser, an absolute failure. And when those prison doors slam shut behind you, I hope that sound echoes in your heart for the rest of your meaningless days. I hope it reminds you of what we all already know. You're nothing. May you continue to live your life in misery. You are officially the property of the state of Idaho, where your fellow inmates are anxiously awaiting your arrival. But it's okay, because they're there to help you.

1:18:14Hell will be waiting. Quick message from our youngest daughter. Aubrey wanted to say, you may have received A's in high school and college, but you're going to be getting big D's in prison.

1:18:32Thank you.

1:18:45Do we have more from the Gonsalves family? Yes. Next would be Shannon Gray, the Gonsalves family attorney. He'll be reading statements from Kaylee Gonsalves' grandmothers.

1:19:00Good morning, Your Honor. Shannon Gray, the attorney for the Gonzalez family. I actually have three statements, one from her aunt and two from her grandparents.

1:19:12This is from her aunt, Tammy Butts. You and the cloak of darkness made a decision to turn our whole family's world upside down forever. You and the cloak of darkness took our Kaylee J. Gonzalez away from us all without hesitation. Never have you shown any remorse or regret. We just get creepy non-expressive stares as you have your team of women defend you. Kaylee was a strong, kind, fun-loving, caring person, and she will greatly be missed by all her family and friends for the rest of our lives she had goals in life that you took from her and us we lose on watching her enjoying her life working hard and building the future she wanted she was ready to start that after college life you and the cloak of darkness took it all the way you left us without her future wedding her future children that she would have added to our family no more talking to her on the phone going for a coffee celebrating holidays it's all gone You and the cloak of darkness gave each and every one of Kaylee's family members their own lifetime sentence.

1:20:35You and the cloak of darkness also took our Maddie Mae from all of us. She was so genuine, caring, polite. She was part of our family. You came in, harmed our children that were younger women than you in their own beds. You're nothing. You're a coward. It's not right that you have received life. I pray that you meet your end in the cloak of darkness, burn in hell. I have two other statements, Your Honor.

1:21:23This is Linda Lukens statement. This is Kaylee's grandmother.

1:21:29I really don't know how to address something so inhumane, but I will try. Nothing in the past two and a half years has made any sense. All I get is you cowardly went into a home at night, filled with what I'm sure you thought was all sleeping girls, and went on a vicious killing spree for no other reason but to appease your demonic urges. You took my granddaughter Kaylee from us, plus three other beautiful lives.

1:21:57You took my granddaughter Kaylee, beautiful, sweet-souled, doll-faced Kaylee, who was getting ready to start her amazing life, who had such a bright future, who was loved by so many, who you were so envious of, she had a life you could never have. You are so beyond human. You're definitely a demon from hell. I truly wish your punishment would be the same death you inflicted on our kids. But I think you will meet some new friends in prison who will be there just to help you. Thumbs up.

1:22:38And I have one last statement, Your Honor.

1:22:44this is from Cheryl Gonzávez Kaylee's other grandmother John 1 5 says light shines in the darkness and the darkness overcomes it not somewhere in your life something, some jealousy envy, ego, something went dark it pushed out all light until you became dark and evil and when you saw my granddaughter and her friends their light because they have such a light, you couldn't stand it. Because the darkness in you could not stand the light in them. And so you decided to destroy it. Cowardly, you walked into their rooms in the dark and took their lives, hoping to get rid of your darkness. But you didn't.

1:23:29You failed. Because you know what was once a light shown only to their friends, families, and loved ones is now all over the world. everyone sees it their smile their beauty their plans everything they were and had

1:23:52and you think you put a close to it even that but you didn't because they still exist they are still light they are still beautiful you can never take that away they will always be in the light of all eternity. And you will be in the darkness because you could not overcome it. You failed. I want you to be gone more than gone. I want you to be cast out. Cast out from my life, from my family, from this earth. I will not allow your hatred to penetrate into my own soul. You did not get that power. You are evil, and in the end, evil is eradicated. You didn't take Kaylee's light. you spread it into the world.

1:24:34Thank you, Your Honor. Thank you.

1:24:40All right. Are you moving to a different family now? Why don't we take a 10-minute recess, all right?

1:24:53Extraordinary, extraordinary, extraordinary. Good God, what just happened that we watched together, Kaylee Gonsalves' sister, Olivia, with the most powerful victim impact statement I've ever heard, completely flipping the whole narrative, refusing to talk about her pain or to read, as she described it from the journal she's been keeping, as she's gone through all of the emotions following her sister's murder, something she considered doing. And instead going on offense, diminishing him, mocking him, laughing at him. Literally there was a laugh at one point and she called him pathetic, a loser and said in that moment that we're, we're all still reeling from, um, hold on.

1:25:49I want to get it. Cause I wrote down exactly. if you hadn't attacked them in the middle of the night while they were asleep, like a pedophile, Kaylee would have kicked your fucking ass. That was the position she came from, Olivia Gonsalves, from a position of strength as the big sister who always protected her younger sisters, as she called both Kaylee and her best friend, Maddie Mogan. Wow. That was something to watch. Steve Gonsalves, who originally had said he wasn't going to speak at all at this thing, got up, turned the lectern to face Brian Kohlberger, to stare him down and to have his say in the same defiant tone, in the same, with the same righteous anger, he addressed him.

1:26:37Both of the Gonsalveses there and the mother too, refusing to sound like they'd been victimized, saying today you've lost control. You picked the wrong families, the wrong state, the wrong police. He said, your actions have united everyone in their disgust for you. None of us are divided. We're united in our disgust and in our love for our children. You have no name. We only call you BK. The media has been calling you that too. You're a joke, he said, Steve Gonsalves. He made the point that we've shared the videos of our four children with the world. That's what they know. They know their names.

1:27:16They know their joy. They know their love for one another. They know their zest for life. That's who they've been discussing. He said, the world is watching because of the kids, not because of you. No one cares about you. You'll be forgotten from, from this moment. We will forget you ending with you pick the wrong family. Again, we're laughing at you on your trip to the penitentiary. And then the, the big sister, Olivia making it even more clear. Is the panel with me, Steve? Yeah, they're with me. Okay, back with me now. Phil Holloway, Howard Bloom, and also Matt Murphy has joined us as well. Guys, that was extraordinary.

1:28:00Phil, I'll start with you. Yeah, you know, Megan, I posted in response to something you posted on X during that, That statement by the sister is just the most powerful thing that I have ever heard in terms of victim impact statements. And I hope that her words will echo in his despicable brain for the rest of his natural life. Because, look, he doesn't have to sit there in prison and worry about ever facing the firing squad in Idaho. But hopefully she has given him something to think about. And I hope that it haunts him for all of his days. All of these speakers did a very good job so far in expressing to the public what this kind of thing does to families.

1:28:46It shatters families. You bring step parents in and you bring extended family in. And it just, the reverberations of this type of cruel, evil attack just seem to be never ending. But these human beings have come into this courtroom and have expressed to the world now what the impact is of this type of a horrific crime. Even though it's not going to make one difference in the sentence, hopefully it gives this guy something to think about as he rots in prison. It's satisfying to watch whether it changes that sentence or not. There's something very satisfying about watching them say those things to him.

1:29:24Howard, the sisters, Olivia's remarks must have jumped out to you because of those questions she was asking him. Yes, it was very poignant. It was Old Testament fury. She was just unleashing all her rage. Though at one point she said, you're afraid to be ordinary. I think really when the people were discussing what they missed most, they miss the ordinary moments with their loved ones that they'll never have again. It was like a scene from the Thornton Wilder play where he comes back and he looks at his family having breakfast. He's in heaven and he can never have that experience again. And that's what they're missing.

1:30:07Kohlberger's fate was that he could never be part of that world. He could never be ordinary. It wasn't that he didn't want to be ordinary. He didn't know how to be ordinary. Right. And she went through Matt Murphy. It was fascinating that those recitations, the questions that she asked seemed to me to be pulled from Brian Kohlberger's questionnaire that he submitted as a Ph.D. student in criminology. It was either as a PhD student or as a master's student at DeSales. But he submitted that questionnaire for criminals asking questions like the ones she posited there, like, why did you choose? And then she said, my sister is referring to Maddie as her sister is to detail you what you were thinking and feeling.

1:30:50If memory serves, these are pulled in part directly from his survey. And then she inserted her own questions like, where's the second murder weapon you used on Kaylee, which was a brand new fact. none of us had ever heard.

1:31:07Well, she knows that with the prospect of a statement and allocution looming, he's going to have an opportunity perhaps to answer those questions. So she's calling him out ahead of time, which I think is very, very clever, because of course, he's not going to answer any of those questions. Another thing that I think was incredibly powerful about that, and we've talked about this before, Megan, is that when it comes to the personality of the psychopath. And that really is what I think Brian Koberger is. They don't really respond to things like a grandmother's tears or the emotional impact on a mother who's lost her child.

1:31:44They're almost immune from that sort of thing. But when it comes to the narcissism that is possessed by a lot of psychopaths, he cut deep. And using the language of people in their 20s, he heard all that. you're a loser and I had a you're basic you're not profound you're pathetic and you're exactly right and she obviously spent a lot of time going through his own writings and knew exactly where those exposed nerves were and I'll tell you what as I'm listening to that it was incredibly powerful I've sat through dozens and dozens and dozens of these things over the years and that one will stand out because if he listens to anybody if he's going to go into prison with anybody's words ringing in his head.

1:32:29It is that woman just laying it out. And that last thing that you already hit on, if you hadn't attacked them in their sleep, like a pedophile, and that's something he's got to be concerned about, especially if he ever sees or even sniffs general population, which I don't think he ever will. You know, she is, she is raising that the sexual component that we talked about before. And my sister would have kicked your fucking ass. That is, he will, he'll hear that. And he's going to remember those words, I think. It was extra powerful because obviously this guy has like some seriously deep misogynistic issues.

1:33:06And so for this young, beautiful woman who he knows would also never have him to stand up there and laugh at him and call him pathetic and a loser and tell him this other woman who he could only subdue because she was sleeping. would have kicked his fucking ass was so powerful. A moment that you, yes, you feel like, well, while he has no empathy whatsoever for victims, he does have feelings about himself and his own deep inadequacies. And yes, she knew exactly how to twist the knife, which is, I mean, a perfect for now ending to their relationship. Yep. Can I add another element to that as well?

1:33:52Again, there was a bit of minor rebellion in that, which I also kind of love. And Judge Hitler handled it perfectly. When somebody gives a victim impact statement, they're not supposed to address the defendant directly. They're supposed to address the court. So the fact that Mr. Gonsalves and her sister both faced him directly and spoke directly to him, it's kind of pushing the limits of the rules, but that was their opportunity to do it. And I really appreciate the fact that the court did not attempt to correct them on that. They had their moment. And I mean, look, in the victim, in the victim rights, the victim impact world, people that have suffered from violent crime.

1:34:31I mean, that woman, that woman spoke for a lot of people today. And that was very powerful. I thought we are right now awaiting the remainder of the Brian Kohlberger sentencing hearing. We've heard from the families of Maddie Mogan and Kaylee Gonsalves. We have not yet heard from Ethan Chapin's or Zana Kurnodal's families. We also heard, and I'll get to this in one second, but an extraordinary moment from the two surviving roommates, which was shocking. One had her statement read by a friend. One, the one we've been speculating about all along, Howard Bloom, Dylan Mortensen, took to the lectern.

1:35:08She sat. She wasn't able to stand. She was, I mean, a wreck. but she spoke about what happened that night. It was remarkable to hear her for the first time. You have to admire her courage. I mean, to be able to do that, to relive that moment publicly, you know, my heart goes out to her and yet I'm filled with respect for her at the same time. And I know Kohlberger, or I speculate Kohlberger must have been staring at her and wondering, you know, he saw her at that moment He let her live what was going on in his mind. He sat there and he looked, in my opinion, diminished today. We saw him earlier on the proceedings.

1:35:54He was wearing a suit and tie. His hair was gelled. He was trying to look like a swaggering figure. Now he looks like, as the sister said, the loser he's become. Yeah, he looks like a convicted felon sitting there in his orange jumpsuit. And Phil, he was almost expressionless for most of the testimonials, though at one point when they were talking about Maddie Mogan, her family went first. He had his hands on his swivel chair and he was swiveling a little like swiveling like a kid boarding class. And then he stopped and just stared everyone down. He was almost expressionless. When the sister said sit up, he didn't.

1:36:33He just he remained motionless. But your thoughts on the fact that back to my other point, the two surviving roommates took the stand. The first one, Bethany Funk, didn't. she had a friend who was featured in this documentary that I mentioned on Amazon Prime read her statement. This is a very dear friend of all four of the roommates. She got up and read Bethany's statement. And can I, I'm just going to play part of what she said, because this is the first time we've heard essentially from Bethany Funk, the roommate who was in the basement and didn't hear anything to whose room Dylan Mortensen ran eventually through at some point that night because she was terrified.

1:37:13Explain what her experience was in those hours and why she didn't immediately know something was wrong or call police. Here's her friend reading her statement. Listen. My name is Bethany Funk and I was roommates with Maddie, Kaylee, Zanna and Ethan. I not only lost some of my best friends, but I also lost a sister. never in a million years would I have would I have thought that something like this would have happened to my closest friends when I first woke up that morning I had no idea what happened I woke up around seven with a terrible toothache so I called my dad who was a dentist he told me to take Advil so I did and I went back to sleep I was still out of it and still didn't know what happened if I had known I of course would have called 911 right away.

1:38:04I still carry so much regret and guilt for not knowing what had happened and not calling right away, even though I understand it wouldn't have changed anything, not even if the paramedics had been right outside the door. Oh, Phil. Yeah, look, there's just no amount of counseling or therapy that can, I think, ever bring these survivors you know what they've lost I mean they they have to live the rest of their lives with this guilt I mean I don't personally feel that they have anything to be guilty of or to feel guilty about but we know they do actually feel that way and this is part of you know this is part of what this individual did he not only ceased the lives of four individuals he effectively destroyed the lives of these other two, because all of the things that they were working on, all the things that they were dreaming and hoping for for the future are now gone.

1:39:06And all they are left with is this survivor's grief. And so to see them have the courage to finally speak out after all this time, you know, hopefully that lets the world sort of understand better the impact of what happens to families and individuals when they're shattered by such violent crime. To your point a moment ago about the sister telling Koberger to sit up straight, Megan, I thought I saw a little bit of a smirk on his face. I'd have to go back and see it, but I think that she did get his attention. I don't know if it was a nervous smirk or if it was some kind of just evil smirk on his face, But I felt like when she told him to sit up straight, I felt like she did get his attention.

1:39:56He does sit there without emotion and without remorse, which goes to the point that I've been making for all this time is that the death penalty should still be on the table for him because there's no value to remaining in a world with him living in it. I think he should have to live in prison every day worrying about the firing squad in Idaho. Will the marksman hit their mark or is it going to hurt? And he needs to be thinking about those things. But instead, he gets to live the rest of his days, perhaps giving interviews and maybe even writing books. But to be able to sit there all day and just swivel in his chair and just wait for his trip to prison seems like a very anticlimactic end to all of this.

1:40:42Matt Murphy, it seemed to me that the Gonsalves family had made was making a concerted effort to set the table for this guy to be taken out in prison. I mean, if there was a theme from the Gonsalves is to me, that was it. Steve Gonsalves saying you pick the wrong families, you pick the wrong state, you pick the wrong group of people. He was basically because I've heard him on other interviews before saying this is someone. He's not one of ours. He's not from Idaho. He came from the East Coast and murdered four of ours. And I don't think the prisoners are going to take too kindly to that. The sister calling him a pedophile.

1:41:20Then the mother saying explicitly, I'm confident that the men in prison will have their way with you in more ways than one. And reading Kaylee Gonsalves' little sister's statement, you may have received A's in schools, but in prison, you'll be getting big D's, which everyone laughed at and clapped at. I mean, the Gonzalez family got a lot of applause in response to those statements. It seems clear what this family wants to have happen to Brian Kohlberger next. Well, he'll be in protective custody, no doubt, and they'll do their best to keep him safe. He won't be in general population. But look, 40 plus years is an awful long time.

1:42:02And there's he will. He's going to have a target on him and he's going to have to worry about that. And protective custody is it's not infallible. And on my Rodney Alcala case, he got beat up in the hallway one day when we're in the middle of trial. You know, they're just taking an inmate past him who had better than spit on him and went off on him. So it is, you know, he will have to look over his shoulder. And, you know, most families, they're back in session. So hold that thought and we'll get back to court and then back to the panel. The next family is the family of Xana Kernodal, and first would be Jasmine Kernodal, Xana's sister.

1:43:03I just want to say thank you to everyone who's been involved in this and just for all the hard work and dedication we had to put into this. I just want to thank everyone for the support and just my family and friends who've been around through this time. I went back and forth on whether to speak today because the truth is you don't deserve power over my feelings. my words or me. Thank you. In the end, I realized this moment isn't about you. It's about justice for Zanna, Ethan, Kaylee, and Maddie. It's about honoring the beautiful people they were and still are in God's eyes. On November 13, 2022, peace of my heart was ripped away.

1:43:59There's no way to ever fully describe the weight of losing my sister or my best friend. No sentence or punishment will ever come close to the justice Zanna, Ethan, Kaylee, and Maddie deserve. Zanna was everyone's best friend. She was kind. She was funny. She was a gift to each person she was able to make an impact on. Zanna was someone I turned to when I needed direction or advice. Although I am her older sister, I often found myself looking up to her. She had a radiant energy that everyone loved, and she always knew the right way to approach a problem. She knew how precious and special life was, and she truly did live every day to the fullest.

1:44:47Yet her story was cut short by an act of evil. I believe in a God whose justice is not bound by this courtroom. I find peace knowing that judgment ultimately belongs to him. For your sake, I hope one day you feel the full weight of what you did. I hope you take accountability. I hope you truly experience the guilt and you surrender yourself to Jesus Christ. because no punishment on this earth can ever compare to the isolation and pain of eternal separation from God. Zanna deserved more. They all did. But I come here to say this. I am strong. I am brave. I'm a fighter, just like Zanna. And you don't get to control how I move forward or what I believe.

1:45:43I walk with the comfort of knowing I will see my sister again. Zanna didn't get the future she deserved. She won't be the maid of honor at my wedding, the cool aunt to my future children. I'll never hear her laugh or see her light up a room ever again, but I will carry her with me for the rest of my life. I will live in her honor, fight to be the best kind of woman and someone she's proud of to make sure the world never forgets who she was. Zanna's story doesn't end with what was taken from her. It lives through the love she gave, the people she touched, and the legacy our family will protect.

1:46:27Her light still shines and her voice will echo louder than this pain. You didn't take that from us and you never will. Thank you.

1:46:50I just want to say before I start, I'm Zanna's dad, Jeff Kornodel.

1:46:57It's been a hard road down, you know, because she's gone.

1:47:05and I want to thank everybody under their families that's speaking so far, spoke about things. I agree with everything they have to say. It all comes back to a lot of the same things that I've had to deal with and we as a family have had to deal with. And that brings me, you know, the basis of what I'm talking about a little bit is on my way up here, flying up here on the plane and about halfway through the flight, this little girl was calling out for her dad. Dad, dad, dad. And then in my mind, I was kind of half asleep. It was dark on the plane. I heard Zanna calling out for me like she did, you know, back when she was little, five years old.

1:47:49And those times were hard. It was chaotic. But we always had something to work toward that was in a positive direction. compared to right now, which is necessarily not as positive as that for sure.

1:48:09I miss Zanna a lot. My life's been changed, and Zanna had a great impact on me, and the impact was when she was gone, I realized how important she was, and what she really did for me influenced me, was way beyond what I ever thought. She'd call me up on the weekends, check on me, see who's with me. She's like accountability to your youngest daughter. And that really made a big difference. It made me really think about things and what it's all about, you know. That's the things that I miss most is those calls on the weekends, the calls at 11 at night. What's going on? you want to meet my friend you know whoever she's with a couple of her friends i can meet them talk to them and um she always did that and uh it's pretty cool pretty cool i really miss that and um that's she made a big impact on me on on other people her family but the impact that she made is so extensive on what happened here.

1:49:26And it goes so far. People from everywhere in the world are following things. And Xana has made a difference in their lives. Countless people told me that. They might not even know her. They never knew anything about her. It's what they see. And they just love her and say how they wish she could have been their friend. you know could have been their friend could it could hung out and it's like this is this this is the blessing you know this is the whole kid was and um definitely was a big big blessing in my life and so so so's jasmine and um

1:50:14basically you know we worked hard to do the things we did is that you know through the times that were growing up and through those times I realized that I wanted both of them to graduate college and that'd be the ultimate thing for them to do to prepare for the world. Then it came back to me, Zanna didn't get to finish college. She had it all figured out. Quick break. We'll be right back with ongoing coverage of the sentencing hearing of Brian Kohlberger, confessed killer of the Idaho four. What does feeling safe at home really mean to you? Having good locks, maybe an alarm that would, you know, make a lot of noise if someone actually broke in.

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1:55:52It's the part that really counted Is those memories And those are what I have left The memories with her And the ones I can make with her And the life that I can go on with now Which is what she wants and I say that in present sense because that's what she wants because I've been told that, you know. I've had countless ways that she's out there and has a way to communicate, which I'm very grateful for.

1:56:28That goes to say that the impact of what happened to them, all the four kids, goes so much further than just not me, the parents, the families, the community. It goes so far because a lot of kids, you know, in the colleges, just for an example, they locked their doors now. The door wasn't locked in the back you know penn state or wherever it was all the colleges i know that i've heard they all locked their doors now so maybe the impact that it's going to make is going to help out and maybe protect some people having this outreach and having the influence of what these kids what happened these kids did you know um all i know is i was seven miles away when it happened and I had a, she wasn't feeling that good.

1:57:26It was 1130 and I almost went over to Susanna's to say, and I would have been sitting right there in that couch and you had to deal with me. So they would have had a chance and I regret that. I regret not going. But the reason why I didn't is because Susanna said, don't be drinking and driving. Got the rental car, don't be drinking and driving, you know, the week before that. so she would have been mad at me to do that but I really wish I would have drunk and drove because they would have had a chance, all four of them

1:58:04At this point, I just have to go on with everything and make things better in my life because that's what it's all about. I have closure in things and the part that we miss is Santa, her influence, her smile, the things that she did. and we have the memories left, the great memories, and she just wants us to make more memories. That's all I got. Thank you for your words and your courage and bless your family.

1:58:54Next, Kim Carnotel would like to address the court.

1:59:23Thank you, Your Honor. My name is Kim Kernodle. I am Zanna's aunt. I was very blessed to have her in my life and our family. And I thought I had everything in my head, what I wanted to say, but it kind of went out. And I'm always looking for the positive thing because evil, hate can destroy people. And that's what it started doing with our family. It created anger with our family members.

2:00:06and then I had to look because Santa was everything that the media, her friends said she was that fun, loving high spirited, beautiful person and I no longer get to get my nails done with her have lunch with her

2:00:34sorry but how I look at it now is this tragedy this horrible tragedy on all of our the four children has brought us closer you united us with your actions we're united now and we're stronger than ever. We have family and friends now that we never knew we had. And, you know, this is probably going to bother everybody, but Brian, I'm here today to tell you I have forgiven you because I no longer could live with that hate in my heart. And for me to become a better person, I have forgiven you and anytime you want to talk and tell me what happened get my number I'm here no judgment because I do have answers or questions that I want you to answer and I'm here I'll be that one that'll listen to you okay thank you your honor thank you very much My name is Stratton Knudel, and I'm Zanna's uncle, Jeff's brother.

2:01:49Sitting here today listening to all the stories and feelings and feeling the pain from everybody is a pretty powerful thing. Each time a statement was read, it sort of would tug into my center core as I felt everybody's anguish. And Dana meant a lot to us, and we loved her very much. But I started thinking about, instead of rehashing everything that everybody else has talked about, I wanted to direct it another direction toward Brian and what he's done to his family. His parents, his siblings, his friends, his universe. He has contaminated, tainted their family name, and pretty much made a horrible, miserable thing to be ever related to him.

2:03:02And I know that that's what he has to live with, and that has to be his pain. And that's all I have to say. Thank you.

2:03:17next runner i believe randy davis stepfather to zanna crinoda would like to address the court

2:03:33hi my name's randy stepdad of zanna i just feel the same way we all do we're all of us are united because of something that happened and i am grateful to know and have met some new family because of this awful event. But this is probably the last time we're all going to be in the same room together. Let's be real. So I can say I love you all, and I feel your pain, and just God bless us all, you know. Just get through it. I had stuff wrote up. It was probably best I didn't read it out. Probably get kicked out of here. So, you know, I'll share one thing to you guys, not to you, with Zanna. So I was working in North Dakota and came home, and Jazzy and Zanna had taken our son, Elijah, and put him in a dress, makeup.

2:04:45makeup and it was it was awful you know I was like I just I I don't know she was funny I told her she'd be uh in the movies and be somebody great one day like that and now she is just above us as an angel with all the other beautiful kids so let's hold that to our hearts because this evil thing is not going to take nothing from us. You, man, I don't know what my limits are here, but I'm really struggling, dude. I am struggling. Welcome back to the Megan Kelly show. We're listening here to Zana Kurnodal's stepdad, Randy. I love God. I wouldn't take your life. That's up to him, but I guarantee you, you are weak.

2:05:35God, I would just give a moment, man, five minutes out the woods. Oh man, you're going to go to hell. I know people believe in other stuff. You're, you're evil. There's no place for you in heaven. You took our children. you are gonna suffer man I'm shaking because I want to reach out to you but I just I hope you feel my energy okay go to hell applause applause applause applause

2:06:17next is Kara Northington Zanna's mother

2:06:43I'm Kara Northington. I am Xana Kernodle's mother.

2:06:50This letter is to you, really. But it is for my daughter, who was murdered by you. Today I stand before you, the man who was responsible for murdering my beautiful daughter, Santa Kernodal.

2:07:11My daughter was beautiful both inside and out. She possessed love for those around her and had a light so bright, it will live on forever in our hearts. She brought joy and laughter to her friends, her family, and anyone in her presence. Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, now has her in his loving arms in heaven where she can never be harmed ever again for eternity. Because of her, I came to know my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Because of her, many will come to Christ. It is Christ who lives in me that has given me the strength to forgive you. It was of no power of my own. In return, the Lord has filled me with joy, hope, and peace that surpasses all understanding.

2:08:13Jesus has allowed me to forgive you for murdering my daughter without you even being sorry or asking for this this is only possible because he who lives in me is greater than any evil in this world for God hath not given us the spirit of fear but of power and of love and of a sound mind I do not fear you or even let you rent space in my head anymore. This forgiveness has released me from any and all evil you have inflicted on me and my family. It has allowed me to let our Lord deal with you. You have accepted a deal that will prevent you from receiving the death penalty.

2:09:09nothing man can do to you can ever compare to the wrath of God

2:09:17inevitably you will stand before our Lord and we'll have to answer to him over the sins you have committed and murdering our children I pray you come to the end of yourself before that day whether you like it or not heaven is for real and so is hell the innocent life of Zanna that you stole from myself and my family and the destruction of this and the destruction it has caused

2:09:55I am washing my hands of you and turning you over to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, whom vengeance belongs to. In closing, I want to read a passage from the Bible, Ephesians 6, King James Version. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armor of God that ye may be able to withstand the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

2:10:33for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities against powers against the rulers of the darkness of this world against spiritual wickedness and high places wherefore take unto you the whole armor of god that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day that ye may be able to stand in the evil day

2:11:15I'm not going to share memories of Zanna or any more of the goodness of her with you because I do not want that to be in your head. I don't want it to be in your head. You don't deserve that. You don't deserve our good memories that we have. I do pray for you. I pray that you come to the end of yourself. I pray that before this life is over, that you ask our Lord and Savior in your heart to forgive you. I do pray for that. But after today, I wash my hands of you and you are no longer a thing.

2:11:51Thank you. Thank you.

2:12:05I don't believe the state has any other victim impact statement. Okay.

2:12:21Thank you. Right. Stay can argue.

2:12:34Thank you, Your Honor.

2:12:41Just as a housekeeping matter to start, there will be the issue of restitution. The documentation is being gathered, and we ask if the court would defer that for 30 days so we can present it in an orderly fashion and make sure it's comprehensive for everyone. Any objection to leaving restitution open in 60 days? All right. Thank you, Your Honor.

2:13:15I think it's necessary and appropriate to share for everyone here, including the court, the background that brings us in front of your honor today for these proceedings. As the record reflects, and as everybody in this courtroom knows, the defendant has pleaded guilty to all five counts charged in the indictment. Under oath before your honor he has admitted that the charges against him are true. He has reassured the court that he has not been coerced or threatened to make those admissions and your honor did an extraordinary job in taking the pleas back on July 2nd. We appreciate the court's discipline and insight.

2:14:09The defendant has also waived appeal on the multitude of rulings from this court and Your Honor's predecessor in Lataw County on dozens of literally dozens of motions seeking to dismiss the case, seeking to control or limit evidence, seeking to offer evidence that would not be appropriate. And we appreciate the court's consistent rulings based on the law, based on the facts.

2:14:45As your honor will recall, on June 18th, just really not that long ago, we appeared before this court for arguments on what became the defendant's final motions to this court. A motion where they wanted to offer evidence suggesting that other people were responsible for the defendant's actions. And the motion seeking essentially an indefinite continuance of the trial. It was readily apparent to all of us in the courtroom from Your Honor's comments that those motions were not going to be granted. So we returned to Moscow and continued with what we've been working on for months in preparation for trial.

2:15:33We have no qualms about going to trial if trial was what was necessary and appropriate. it. The following week after we were in court, we were approached by the defense with an inquiry about a possible plea. And I can tell the court this is the first suggestion ever that there was any consideration because indeed the defense had maintained from the beginning that Mr. Koberger, the defendant, was factually innocent.

2:16:10it's clear that the reality of the evidence and the case that had been investigated and prepared and that we were ready to present in court became a reality.

2:16:27Our reaction, among other things, was to reach out to all the families. And in fact, later that week on Thursday and Friday of that last week of June, we met with representatives by teams, virtual meetings with representatives of all the families. And we talked about the status of the case and the upcoming trial and things that related to the trial. And we also let them know that there had been an inquiry about whether there might be an offer for a plea. And we asked the family members for their thoughts and feelings. And they were candid. And they have been candid since, and we respect that. And we understand, recognize, and acknowledge that there was a difference of opinion among representatives of the different families.

2:17:25We understand that. One of the challenges of this case, one of the unique things about this case is we have multiple victims, each unique unto themselves, their families and friends unique unto themselves, and all of them entitled to their opinions, all of them entitled to their thoughts. Over the following weekend, our prosecution team, very skilled attorneys who were personally as well as professionally deeply invested in this case met. And we talked, and the decision was reached, to start with, were there to be any sort of plea offer or discussion, there's only one possibility. And that would be for the defendant to plead guilty straight up to all charges.

2:18:21There would be no bargaining about counts. There would be no bargaining about reduced sentences. And so we made the proposal to the defense that if the defendant was willing to plead guilty up front to all five counts as charged and waive appeal of the court's myriad decisions during the past two and a half plus years on all these motions that would have consumed years, if not decades, of time in the future.

2:19:00By the end of the weekend, we were notified the defendant was prepared to plead guilty as charged and factually acknowledge his responsibility in court for these horrible crimes.

2:19:18Obviously, those discussions and negotiations were confidential. And as your honor noted, I believe that was necessarily so, because if the defendant had decided not to plead guilty, it would have been devastating to our jury pool for there to be public information that there had been consideration by either party to a plea resolution. and protecting the prospective integrity of trial after so many years was paramount. So the end of the weekend came. We notified the victims' families of what had occurred. We recognize, I recognize and acknowledge personally, and I respect the fact that of these fine suffering people here, not everybody agreed with the decision we make.

2:20:17I accept that. It's my responsibility to the end. I recognize that that's the duty of the office that I hold.

2:20:31So now, it is time for the judicial system to impose final judgment and close the door on this chapter of these tragedies. As the court is aware, by the agreement of the parties, it is the state's prayer.

2:20:59Perhaps have the elbow please turn on.

2:21:09Thank you. That on count one, the felony burglary, the court sentenced the defendant to the maximum period of 10 years fixed in the custody of the Idaho Department of Correction. And on count two, that the court sentenced the defendant to fixed life for the murder, Maddie Mogan.

2:21:43On count three, that the court sentenced the defendant to fixed life for the murder of Kaylee Gonzalez.

2:22:01On count four, that the court sentenced the defendant to fixed life for the murder of Santa Kern Hotel.

2:22:20on count five that the court sentenced the defendant to fixed life for the murder of Ethan Chapin. And the state further prays that these sentences be ordered to run consecutively back to back, not at the same time. to recognize and respect the unique individuality of each of these beautiful young people whose lives were taken brutally and for no reason.

2:23:09And hopefully now, as we have heard earlier this morning, It is time to afford the families and the friends and the community and the state of Idaho and the nation and the world to move forward. We can't undo and we can never undo the horror of what occurred on the early morning hours of November 13, 2022 at 1122 King Street in Moscow, Idaho.

2:23:48For a long time, the presiding district judge in Latow County was John Stegner, who eventually became a member and justice of the Idaho Supreme Court. And Judge Justice Stegner often observed that even God cannot change the past. that everyone in this room has the ability to take themselves forward. And we want the judicial system to afford them the opportunity today to do that.

2:24:32from today forward our memories should be focused on these innocent victims whose lives were taken on their families on their friends on the community

2:24:48the court has heard discussion talk today reminisces today about a special family that our victims shared, not just their natural, legal, and biological families, not just their university family within their sororities, for example,

2:25:21but this family.

2:25:26This is the picture taken on November 12, 2022, of the special family of 1122 King Road. And you can see all six of these dynamic, vibrant, loving, special, innocent faces. taken together just across the street from their residence and barely 12 hours before four of them would be brutally murdered in their sleep.

2:26:11They've been described consistently as being bright, caring, vivacious, with futures we can only imagine now.

2:26:28But they were, and they remained, a special family that I think we should all recognize and appreciate. So it's time to move forward.

2:26:44There have been a number of statements directed specifically at the defendant today. I have one last thought. after your honor imposes judgment and sentences the defendant to spend the rest of his life in prison. In other words, sentence the defendant to die in prison. He's going to stand up in the belly chains and leg irons that he's wearing today. And he's going to be escorted into the custody of the Idaho Department of Correction. and the door will close behind him forever. That is the closure that we seek, that all of these people, these loving friends and family deserve, so we can move forward.

2:27:50Thank you, Your Honor. Thank you.

2:28:08All right, does the defense have evidence to present today? All right.

2:28:18Mr. Kohlberger,

2:28:28you have an opportunity to make a statement if you wish to. I take it you're declining. I respectfully decline.

2:28:45Howard. Please.

2:28:51All right, let me start this morning by acknowledging and thanking those that have come here today in support of their loved ones. And I appreciate your courage and your strength. and I hope that you are able to move on as best as possible. Thank counsel for the professionalism that they've exhibited throughout this case. It has been my great honor to preside in this case and to help bring to the extent possible some resolution and hopefully justice to this case.

2:29:44During the quiet morning hours of November 13, 2022, a faceless coward reached the tranquility of six beautiful young people and senselessly slaughtered them, four of them. Who committed this unspeakable evil was unknown for several weeks, but due to the killer's incompetence and outstanding police work by numerous local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. The person that slithered through that sliding glass door at 1122 King Road now stands before the world and this court unmasked. This unfathomable and senseless act of evil has caused immeasurable pain and loss.

2:30:41No parent should ever have to bury their child. This is the greatest tragedy that can be inflicted upon a person. Parents who took their children to college in a truck filled with moving boxes had to bring them home in hearses lined with coffins. the loss this killer inflicted was not just the death of these people's children siblings grandchildren as we've heard today it has ripped a hole in their soul destroying a special part of their very essence.

2:31:26Any person who is a parent defines themselves foremost as such.

2:31:37It is their existence and purpose of being, and it has been stolen from these parents.

2:31:52none of us have experienced the loss these victims have in the unspeakable way that they have and therefore none of us can nor should we question the way in which they have handled their loss whether that be in private mourning removed as far as possible from this media circus or in front of a camera demanding retribution with the loudest megaphone. I've listened intently to the stories and pain that have been shared today with great awe at the courage and resilience of the surviving family members of those wonderful children. I've listened also to the surviving roommates, both in person and through their friends.

2:32:37And I can't think of how, frankly, courageous they have been, despite the hell that they have faced by uncaring people who have come up with all kinds of crazy theories about two kids simply being kids.

2:32:59the parents siblings siblings and other family members who have spoken today are designated as victims in our legal system but going forward i hope that they can shed that label as it gives too much power to the evil that condemned them to that role they are and should be known as survivors fighters and foremost as witnesses to the tremendous lives of value and unbounded promise of these four young people. But those speaking today and those who did not speak but who carry the same burden, this same loss, now carry forward the memories of these now perpetually young people, these forever children.

2:33:44These survivors carry the responsibility of ensuring that the voices of these children, Maddie, Kaylee, Zanna, and Ethan, are never forgotten. And the positive impacts that they have had on so many lives are never minimized, and that the love they shared, the light that they shined onto others is forever celebrated. As we sit here today, this case is ending, and we are now certain who committed these unspeakable acts of evil, but we don't know, and what we may never know is why.

2:34:24I share the desire expressed by others to understand the why, but upon reflection, it seems to me, and this is just my own opinion, that by continuing to focus on why, we continue to give Mr. Kohlberger relevance. We give him agency, and we give him power. the need to know what is inherently not understandable makes us dependent upon the defendant to provide us with a reason and that gives him the spotlight the attention and the power he appears to crave yet even if i could force him to speak which legally i cannot how could anyone ever be assured that what he speaks is the truth do we really believe after all of this he's capable of speaking the truth or of giving up something of himself to help the very people whose lives he destroyed rather i suspect the so-called reason would be dished out in enticing self-serving and aggrandizing untruthful bits leaving leaving people wanting more information more insight and thus enhancing even further the power he seeks to hold.

2:35:35Even if we could get truthful insight into his why, I suspect it would not in any way quench one's thirst for actually understanding why in the first instance. Because there is no reason for these crimes that could approach anything resembling rationality. No conceivable reason could make any sense. and in the end the more we struggle to seek explanation for the unexplainable the more we try to extract a reason the more power and control we give to him in my view the time has now come to end mr kohlberger's 15 minutes of fame it's time that he'd be consigned to the ignominy and isolation of perpetual incarceration i know there has been concern about him collaborating on books or movies or other media projects, and I truly hope that someone does not stoop to affording him this spotlight that he desires in the name of cliques, royalties, or profits.

2:36:40While criminal behavioralists should study him away from the spotlight in an attempt to prevent other would-be killers from acting on their worst impulses, there should be no need for that to spill over into the public eye. The great Idaho jurist Edward Lodge was known for trying to find something positive about every person he ever sentenced. And with over a half a century as a trial judge, that was a lot of people. This was often challenging, and I recall in one case he said that the best he could come up with was the defendant had good penmanship. truth be told i'm unable to come up with anything redeeming about mr coberger because his grotesque acts of evil have buried and hidden anything that might have been good or intrinsically human about him his actions have made him the worst of the worst even in pleading guilty he's giving nothing hinting of remorse or redemption nothing suggesting even a recognition or understanding let alone regret for the pain that he has caused.

2:37:50And therefore, I will not attempt to speak about him further other than to simply sentence him so that he is forever removed from civilized society. And accordingly, based upon his conduct and based upon the record before this court, recognizing the standards that govern this court's sentencing decisions as set forth in State B. 2 Hill, I hereby sentence Mr. Kohlberger as follows. On count one, burglary, 10 years fixed, zero years indeterminate. I also impose a fine of$50 ,000. Count two, first-degree murder of Madison Mogan. I sentence the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of$50 ,000, and a civil penalty of$5 ,000 payable to the family of the victim.

2:38:44On count three, for first-degree murder of Kaley Gonsalves, I sentenced the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of$50 ,000, and a civil penalty of$5 ,000 payable to the victim of the family. Or to the family of the victim, pardon me. On count four, for the first-degree murder of Zanna Karnotl, I sentenced the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of$50 ,000, and a civil penalty of$5 ,000 payable to the family of the victim. On count five for the first-degree murder of Ethan Chapin, I sentenced the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of$50 ,000, and a civil penalty of$5 ,000 payable to the family of the victim.

2:39:36The sentences on counts one, two, three, four, and five shall run consecutively to one another. Restitution will be left open for 60 days. defendant will be required to submit a DNA sample and a right thumbprint impression to the Department of Corrections and comply with the DNA Database Act. I remand the defendant to the custody of the Idaho State Board of Corrections for to be imprisoned in an appropriate facility and execution of the sentence where he will remain until he dies. Though you've waived your right to appeal, you do have a right to file a notice of appeal and any such appeal must be filed within 42 days the date of the written judgment, which will be entered shortly hereafter.

2:40:25Though the appeal, you should be aware, may be deemed a violation of the plea agreement, and so I certainly suggest you discuss that with counsel if that is your desire. I ask the media and public present to allow the families to be escorted out first before they leave. Again, thank you to everyone for your stories today. I am strengthened by them, and I am encouraged by your humanity and strength. God bless you. We are adjourned.

2:41:06incredible day in court in Boise, Idaho, not far from where these crimes were committed. In Moscow, Idaho, were four college students with everything in front of them, happy lives, beautiful friendships, boyfriends, girlfriends, families who love them. Went to college one day. And for some reason, as the judge points out, that we'll never fully understand had their lives snuffed out at 412 in the morning by that thing sitting there. at counsel's table wearing orange, Brian Kohlberger. He didn't speak at all except for the one line when the court said, Mr. Kohlberger, do you wish to make a statement?

2:41:50And like the good little school boy, he said, I respectfully declined, still looking for some sort of pat on the top of the head, still acting like the PhD student who could get an A for his classroom behavior and trying to fool us into thinking he's respectful in any way. Here's, here's that moment. All right, Mr. Kohlberger, uh, you have an opportunity to make a statement if you wish to, I take it you are declining. I respectfully decline. What's that about? What does he think he's fooling? What a joke this man is. I use that term very loosely. The judge sentencing him as expected to the maximum on all counts, 10 years in prison on the burglary count, uh, life without, well, he didn't say without parole.

2:42:35Talk to Matt about that in a minute, but life for Maddie, life for Kaylee, life for Zanna, life for Ethan to run consecutively, meaning one after the other, along with $50 ,000 in fines for each victim and, and, uh, a$5 ,000 civil penalty to the family. this is the end technically guys my panel's back with me Phil Holloway Howard Bloom and Matt Murphy this is the end I don't know it's it feels I guess it feels unsatisfying Matt you've been through this so many times does it always feel unsatisfying

2:43:15well it's it's always a little anticlimactic when there's a plea Megan I think that if this was a sentencing after a jury trial, we might feel a little bit different because we would have really seen the exhaustion of all the evidence that was available. We would have seen and heard every detail of this investigation. And I just, again, I've said it before, but kudos to the police here. They really are the heroes on this from the local police department to the state troopers of Idaho, to the FBI. They really did an outstanding job. And I hope people remember that. The only reason why we had the sensing is because of the hard work of those men and women.

2:43:55And I was really grateful to see the family members acknowledge them in that. Even Mr. Gonsalves, as angry as he was, he gave a shout out to the police, which I thought was really dignified. But I'm just I'm struck by this judge. It's important for people to remember that all judges are not created equal. And this Judge Hitler did a fantastic job. I thought that his comments were exactly on point. And I think that he really spoke to all of us when he said, you know, the more we wonder why in something that he would never tell the truth on and is really unexplainable anyway, the more we continue to give him power.

2:44:33Now, everybody wants to know why, because we want to prevent it. We want to see it coming. We want to know what to look for to prevent the next Brian Koberger. But I thought that I thought that he was outstanding. And remember, he did not have to impose that. This was discretionary with the court. That was one of my criticisms of Thompson at the beginning. He surrendered that power to sentence to the they call it fixed life in Idaho, which is life without possibility of parole. The court imposed that upon its own discretion. So hats off to the court. I thought I thought that judge really did an outstanding job today and he did exactly the right thing.

2:45:11And I thought his comments are something that we should all think about. It was, it was a new perspective setter because we're also unsatisfied without, with him not having to explain why, but it was a good reminder of like, who cares? Who cares? Could it, what could he possibly say that would satisfy any of us? You know, this, this cretin, this, this human excrement sitting there. I don't know what happened to him, but he doesn't seem human to me. He seems other worldly. And I don't mean that in a complimentary way. He just seems like something frankly that needs to be snuffed out but the next best thing Howard is to have him rot in prison for the rest of his life and I'm picturing the door closing behind him as the judge said I'm from the set defines is deeply unsatisfying there are two diametrically opposed positions presented today one was by the Gonsalves family that raised questions specific questions they wanted answers.

2:46:09The judge, in effect, said, let's move on. He said that literally. Let's move on. We can forget about it. Well, I think it's too soon to forget about it. Yes, we'll never know a rational reason why he did it, but there still are other questions remaining. Where's the knife? How did he cover up his tracks? I would like more answers. I think the people of Idaho, the families and all of us, the public, should have been presented with more answers. You know, I did think it was a little odd, Phil, that the prosecutor, Bill Thompson, spent a good chunk of his closing remarks trying to talk about how he notified the families of the pending plea.

2:46:50It was like he was trying to rehabilitate himself in response to Steve Gonsalves' complaints about the way the plea was handled. I just thought that was totally inappropriate. It reminded me of the judge at when Kohlberger, you know, pleaded guilty, making it all about the phone calls he'd received from people who are out like, stop making it about yourself. This isn't about you rehabbing you. You know, I've been pretty critical about this prosecution team, not for the quality of the case they put together, because as others have correctly mentioned, they did a great job along with the law enforcement who investigated this case.

2:47:29But from a PR perspective, I think that they really dropped the ball. And to see an extension of that today, it was almost like you saw a little bit of grandstanding. There's no jury present. It's just a judge. This is a non-jury proceeding. So it was a bit over the top in terms of theatrics. And as you mentioned, it seemed to be aimed at rehabilitating their own image for those of us in the public who are being somewhat critical. They, in my view, should have had all of the families in agreement on this plea deal, or there would be no deal. That's just my opinion. That's how I would have played it if I had been the prosecutor, because that would have perhaps left us with perhaps some little bit more increased measure of satisfaction.

2:48:18We're all left unsatisfied right now. Think about how the families must feel as they're leaving the courthouse. But had there been a trial in a sentencing hearing with evidence and aggravation, we might have known a lot more, because as we go forward today, we're all left with these lingering questions of why. Why did this have to happen? Why did it happen? And because I think the decisions the prosecutor made, we're going to be left with these answers. And let me just point this one thing out. This court today rendered a judgment. There can be a judgment in any case. But when we speak of what justice is.

2:48:56Was justice delivered? You know, justice is one of those words that's incapable of being defined, and it's in the eye of the beholder. But I would submit that there is no amount of justice, whatever it may be, that can possibly apply to this case, because the magnitude of the destruction, not only of the individual's lives who were taken, but the destruction that is left in the wake of this evil, evil, evil act is not capable of receiving adequate justice, in my view. So there's, I think, always going to be some measure of dissatisfaction because justice just can't address this kind of evil. That's so well said.

2:49:41It's just, it captures what I'm feeling right now. When I listened to, for example, Kaylee's sister speak, I felt like, yes, this is what I want. You know, I want to hear him humiliated. I'm enjoying this, that piece, but everything else has just left me with this empty feeling of like, why not, not demanding an explanation, but just the, you know, the human evil, the evil that, that walks amongst us as human beings and the snuffing out of these four lives with nothing but promise in front of them. And Steve Gonsalves was right. They did a very good job of those families of getting out the videos of those four kids and helping us get to know them, Howard, and fall in love with the four of them and their huge thousand watt smiles and the joy they clearly felt on the Idaho campus and the football games they celebrated and the dance parties.

2:50:34The one sister mentioned, you know, like these, these were jubilant, really happy, lovely kids, just American kids trying to get an education and have a good time, then he resented it. Without him saying anything, we know you've written about it, he couldn't stand their happiness. I mean, Steve, to my mind, is a hero throughout this whole thing. He refused to just move on. Everyone else, to judge, the prosecutor, they kept on repeating that phrase, it's time to move on, it's time to move on. Well, the reality is none of these families are ever going to be able to move on. I don't think the town of Moscow will be able to move on.

2:51:14And I think we should have been given some answers. You know, the sister Olivia raised the questions. The questions were, as you pointed out, very similar to the questions Kohlberger included in his master's dissertation that he distributed prisons. He should be asked those questions. We should be get those answers. You know, that's the other thing. The judge is like, well, I really hope no journalist or, you know, publishing house gives him the opportunity to give an interview or write a book. First of all, he's not allowed to make money on a book. That's that's illegal. But that's not to say, I guess, one couldn't be published and where he wouldn't get paid.

2:51:51And he certainly is going to get the knock on the door from journalists up and down the spectrum. And Catherine Rumsfeld or Rumsfeld or whatever her last name or unless I'm forgetting her last name. Thank you, Ramsland. His former master's professor at DeSales University has said she'd like to study him. He'll love all of that. Look, that's just human nature. People want to study serial killers. It's a natural thing we want to understand. But I will say to this Judge Hitler, you know what would have made it slightly less likely is if your D.A. required him to really cop to the crime and explain himself at this sentencing hearing, Matt, you know, like him allowing this defendant to remain an enigma to not say anything is only going to make the press and everyone else more interested in him.

2:52:42Yeah. Can I I want to add on to that a little bit, Megan. And I want to be fair here because it's a tough job. You're the elected DA. You got a lot going on. You have the families. There are good reasons. Look, when it comes to appellate issues, things like that, all of that is real. And it gives some finality. I hate the word closure. He used it. I think that's a trope. These families, like Howard pointed out, there's no closure for them. But so that said, I want to be fair to the prosecutor. However, that little speech that he gave, that performative aspect of that, first of all, the seminal case in the United States.

2:53:18OK, things to be out of Idaho to Sonia Sotomayor, 2019 opinion from the United States Supreme Court called Garza versus Idaho. See, Thompson made this big point of saying he waived his appellate rights. The case in the United States is out of Idaho that says you can't actually ever waive your appellate rights. OK, so that's not real. And it is the law that he can still, as the court pointed out at the at the end, you got 42 days to file your notice of appeal. It might breach the plea because that essentially is a contract. But now it's post sentencing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see him file notice of appeal.

2:53:54And you can do that. And that's for direct appeal. We still have the entire habeas process, which is another way to challenge a conviction. And Thompson gave that up with this plea. He did. He did. He knows he did. And look, there's good reasons for good reasons against. I'm not Philip here. I wouldn't have given him this deal. You know, definitely cases are hard. That goes with the job dealing with family members who disagree. You know, also, that's a part of the job. But another thing that really does disturb me a little bit on this is there's a saying, Megan, so goes California, it goes the rest of the nation.

2:54:32We've all heard that before. There are huge movements and legislative pushes in the state of California to eliminate LWAP or Life Without Possibility Parole as a sentence. Forty years is a long time. And the last time we talked about this, I said, I think he's going to get a parole hearing one day. And under current Idaho law, he will not. The way the court did this, they call it fixed life. Almost every other state calls it life without possibility of parole. I think it's North Carolina calls it life without mercy. Every state has its own concept. I want to hear the end of this, but I'm about to hit a hard break on Sirius XM.

2:55:09We'll continue on pod and YouTube dot com slash Megan Kelly. Sirius XMers, thank you for tuning in and we'll see you over at YouTube and on pod.

2:55:21And we're back, Matt. Go ahead and finish your thought. The DA's sort of statement that he waived his appellate rights, it's just he did on paper, but it doesn't doesn't actually mean anything. He can still appeal. It may be a tougher appellate road. He can still do a direct appeal. He just has to accuse his defense lawyers of ineffective assistance counsel. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that. And then, of course, 40 years is an awful long time for them to get an opportunity. to switch the law. And look, the Menezes brothers got life without possibility of parole in California, and we know what just happened there.

2:55:56There have been significant legislative actions that allow people with life without possibility of parole sentences in other states to now get them. So that was, he stood up. He said that it sounded awful good. However, there's a lot more to it. And I hope it's the end. I hope him going away and the door closing and all that stuff is the end, but legally it's really not. Can I add – let me add something to that if I can. I'm glad that we're talking about ineffective assistance of counsel, this of course being a Sixth Amendment right that you have under the U.S. Constitution and each state has their own.

2:56:35And all he would really need to do is say, look, we had identified four other people and we were prepared to blame them at trial as being potential the other, the real killer. OK, but my lawyers talked me out of going forward with the trial, even though I wanted to say that other people committed this crime. And then you've got that could really happen. Just to interrupt you for one quick second, that really could happen. As Howard was reporting on this leading up to the trial that Ann Taylor was jumping up and down, seemingly wanting him to plead this out. And Kohlberger, there was talk about whether she'd have to try to get him declared incompetent or do something around his alleged autism to try to force this plea deal on him.

2:57:21Keep going, Phil. Yeah, so he can raise this issue on collateral attack on what we call a habeas kind of an appeal. and he's not essentially, I think, breaching the plea deal because he's not necessarily appealing any of the pretrial rulings made in the case. He's saying that my rights were violated today during this sentencing process because my lawyers didn't do their job. Now, that's not saying, I'm not saying that's the case necessarily, but that's the argument that could be made. So for the prosecutor to sit there and say for everybody's benefit, I guess, that there's just not going to be in the appeal was a little bit disingenuous, and it certainly doesn't reflect the law that exists in the United States, as was correctly pointed out.

2:58:07And it also, you know, just to wrap up this point, if you're going to file a motion saying to the judge, look, we want to blame three or four or five other people for this, and we've got some evidence of it, you better have really, really good evidence, because when that motion fails, and then you're on the eve of trial and your client figures out, okay, the limelight is over. It's time to put up or shut up. And we're at the foot of the cross. You look like a fool for bringing this motion saying we've got evidence that four or five other people may have been the guilty party here. And then you just kind of immediately switch gear to admit under oath that no, this individual client did in fact commit this crime exactly as alleged.

2:58:55So I'm like, Why do you even try to go down that road unless you've got really, really solid evidence of it? I think it's too kind to say you look like a fool. I mean, that's something pernicious and malicious. They put four names into that document. The document and the motion has been redacted. But someday this might very well come out. Those four people will be branded as life, as possible suspects, possible killers. and yet the judge said there's no evidence. That was a very pernicious act on the part of Ann Taylor. I think it's unforgivable. Well, let me add to that just one other point. You heard a lot of people reference it.

2:59:37The DA referenced it. The judge referenced it. Some of the family members mentioned the media attention. And in this very interesting Amazon Prime documentary on this case that just hit, forgive me, I can't remember the name of it. It's about the Idaho Four. but it's on Amazon prime right now. One night in Idaho. Thank you. My team. Um, they talk a lot about the online crime sleuth community and how rabid they've been. And frankly, irresponsible. Some have really been in reporting on this case and pointing the finger at anyone and everyone and sort of dragging innocent young men who are just standing there into this case as alleged suspects and terrorizing, you know, the other roommates and some of the friends.

3:00:23And, um, like the one guy who was just the sober driver at the local fraternity where Ethan Chapin's, uh, he was, I think he was a member there. His name was dragged through the mud and so on. So they, they did make a point about, you know, all those media people and how irresponsible they were. I mean, I think that's a legitimate point. I can't remember why I'm raising this, but, But, oh, that's why. That's why. Because now, Ann Taylor, you know, she puts in a document these four other names that eventually is going to go out there. And what do you think that online community, the ones who are irresponsible, they're not all, is going to do with those names?

3:01:04I literally am still getting texts from random people. Some I know, some I know, rejecting this, telling me he didn't he either didn't do it or he didn't do it alone. I mean, these are smart people who just aren't accepting this because of Ann Taylor. You're right, Howard. Those four people are about to get their names dragged through the mud even more because she irresponsibly threw them out there. Go ahead, Howard. And then I'll go to you, Matt. Well, I mean, as a journalist, you don't really move on. I mean, I listened to the proceedings today and I heard one thing, one thing that I never heard before, that there was a weapon used on Kelly.

3:01:38Now, two weapons. Well, the knife and then he had something else in his hand, I think the sister said. She said, what was the second weapon? We heard testimony about a vacuum cleaner. Dylan had said that a vacuum cleaner, she thought she saw a vacuum cleaner in his hand. Did he bring a vacuum cleaner in? Did he hit her with a vacuum cleaner, savagely beat her? The father said her cheekbones were broken. Is that how he's able to get out without leaving his trail? These are questions I, as a journalist, and I think the Gonzalez family, too, wanted answers. And I don't know if we should be moving on after three and a half years.

3:02:16Before I toss it to you, Matt, I do want to play a soundbite on that. Steve Gonzalez spoke to Ashley Banfield and did fill in some of the details around what he'd been told about Kaylee's murder. She was on the top floor with Maddie Mogan, believed to be the main target of the attack. Here it is, that one. People so angry at what was happening in that courtroom that they would literally pick up their phone and call us and say, this is what's on Brian's phone. This is what he was searching. This individual was sexually motivated. I don't care what Thompson said. Coming out of hearings, there would be people who would call you and say, I don't like what's happening in that courtroom.

3:02:55I know what's on his phone. I know. What did you learn from those phone calls without divulging who it was who called? Just weird, weird porn fetishes. But two of the fetishes were in that room. Drunk, passed out girls and gagging girls. And those are two things that were part of that crime scene for so far for Thompson to say that there was no sexual assault. Of course, there wasn't. He didn't have enough time. Somebody came up there. That was that was additional color. But he also did talk about how it was clear Kaylee had been beaten. I think that he said her nose had been broken. So clearly there had been some sort of a fight, some sort of an altercation.

3:03:34Go ahead, Matt. Well, I think that that hits on exactly what we were discussing last time, is the use of that word, that there's no sexual component. I think that that was really inappropriate by the DA because you can't get into Koperger's head. And we've heard those rumors consistently that Mr. Gonsalves was just talking about there, that there were porn searches that were found on the computers and phones. I can tell you, Maggie, four years in sexual assault and 17 in homicide, unless they get rid of the computers, there's always porn. There's always something on there, especially when you're dealing with people that are motivated by sexual predation.

3:04:12So I was I think that was a very poor choice of words by Thompson in the original plea. He didn't repeat that again today. But look, one of the things that he did say, you know, he talked about we didn't we didn't reduce we didn't reduce the sentences. What did he say? He said no bargaining about reduced sentences. It's like, dude, you gave him the biggest reduced sentence. You came off death. I mean, I don't I don't know what he was talking about there unless he's referring to this specific counts. And sorry, again, I don't want to be overly critical here, but that's called pleading to the sheet.

3:04:48That's something that happens in every courtroom every day by prosecutors. There's nothing heroic about that. It's like you want us to come up the biggest potential sentence in a state that might actually execute him? Of course he's going to plead to the sheet. So that I thought was really – that was designed – that language I think was designed for the general public because there's a lot of lawyers who practice criminal law. I guarantee across America that we're kind of rolling their eyes a little bit on that. And again, guys got a tough job. There are advantages certainly to taking a plea. My writing, I'll call a case like we talked about.

3:05:21I did the third version of that. It was reversed twice. He was convicted twice, sentenced to death twice. I did the third trial and it was brutal on the families. All of that stuff is real. But again, we talked about this. I don't know what changed behind the scenes other than just Kohlberger coming and want to make a deal. And it sounds like nothing. That's it. And Bill Thompson not wanted to try the case. I did find the comment that Steve Gonsalves made to People Magazine. Well, sorry, People Magazine wrote up an interview he gave to the Today Show where he said he and Christy Gonsalves said the coroner gave the parents a breakdown of the wounds 21-year-old Kaylee suffered.

3:06:02Quote, she had definitely been stabbed multiple times and they kind of described it as a drowning that can occur. But she did say gagging. Kohlberger struck her in the face. Christy Gonsalves added, Kaylee had a broken nose, septal hematomas, asphyxial injuries, and defense wounds on her arms. She was stabbed many, many times. How many? We don't know. And that's where you come in, Howard, where you're saying Steve Gonsalves asked you if you could find out that he's relying on you. They're still trying to find things out. And today they revealed for the first time, at least, that there was perhaps something else in the hands that they used to beat, Kaylee.

3:06:43I'd like to hear more about that, but instead we've been told it's time to move on. I think that's worthwhile thinking. Here's the sister Olivia in a series of questions she posed to Brian Kohlberger directly raising some of these points. Some of these might be familiar. So sit up straight when I talk to you. How was your life right before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were thinking and feeling at this time. Why did you choose my sisters? Before making your move, did you approach my sisters? Detail what you were thinking and feeling.

3:07:27Before leaving their home, is there anything else you did? Where is the murder weapon, the clothes you wore that night? What did you bring into the house with you? What was the second weapon you used on Kaylee? What were Kaylee's last words? If you were really smart, do you think you'd be here right now? What's it like needing this much attention just to feel real? Oh, I mean, as someone who's put these psychopaths in jail, Matt, how do you think that made him feel? Well, look, every family member, Megan, winds up landing. Anybody that goes through something like this, they initially land somewhere on a spectrum between just supreme grief and supreme anger.

3:08:17And a lot of them will sort of change on that scale over the course of proceedings and the course of time. And I actually really thought that was incredibly powerful for her to do that. And I think that's the purpose of a victim impact statement, because that young woman, Olivia, will be able to go through the rest of her life knowing that he had to sit there and listen. And again, when we're talking about the psychopath, they have no capacity for empathy, but their narcissism is off the charts. So to have, as you pointed out, Megan, a very attractive young woman, Olivia, speak to him like that in a setting where he had to sit and listen to him, that stung.

3:08:57Because that will impact his sense of grandiosity. And she really just laid him low. I mean, I was cheering for her as she was doing that, taking notes. That was awesome. And I think that if he if there's anything when he gets on that bus to go to whatever prison they send him to, that's going to be echoing around in his mind. It's going to be the words of Olivia Gonzalez. I have to say, I thought it was a courageous act, too, because he is a quadruple murderer. And I mean, I just can't continue to think back to his first question when he got arrested, which was, is anyone else in custody? And so, you know, there is at least a question mark lingering over the case about whether somebody helped him in some way.

3:09:43And I just thought that's very brave of her to be so provocative and antagonistic toward who we know is a man who's a quadruple murderer and has zero empathy. And she's a young woman. I mean, the piece of it, her testimonial is the one that everybody's going to remember. It was extraordinary. But it was important also to have the full panoply of emotion filled because we also saw what this thing did to, for example, Dylan Mortensen. I mean, Dylan's so interesting. She's one of the two surviving roommates. There was Bethany who was in the basement who didn't hear a thing. And then there was Dylan.

3:10:22And Dylan showed up and spoke her statement herself. And she's been at the center of the storm since these murders happened because she saw him. He got into that house, we believe, around 4, 12 a.m. He left within 12 to 18 minutes at most later. and he, upon leaving past Dylan Mortensen in the hallway, she didn't know what she was seeing. She's the one who described him as wearing some sort of like a balaclava or a mask with bushy eyebrows. Uh, Howard pointing out she later, um, Vicki Ward reported that she, she believed Dylan did. He was holding some sort of a vacuum cleaner upon exiting. We've never heard her.

3:11:02We've never, she hasn't given an interview. We haven't heard anything from her. She shows up today and that That woman's anguish was palpable. It was a reminder that he took four lives, but in some ways he ruined far more than four. I'm just going to play a soundbite from her and then you can take it, Phil. Here's part of the Dylan Mortensen impact statement montage. It's SOT 21. My nervous system never got the message that it is over and it won't let me forget what he did to them. He is a hollow vessel, something less than human, a body without empathy, without remorse. He chose destruction. He chose evil.

3:11:48He may have taken so much from me, but he will never get to take my voice. He will never take the memories I had with him. he will never erase the love we shared the laughs we had or the way they made me feel seen and whole those things are mine they are sacred and he will never touch them oh both both she and the other roommate felt testifying that for a year after this happened they had to sleep in the bed with their parents? You know, to take someone's life obviously is one of the worst things that you could ever do to someone. But I think you could make the argument that doing to her what Koberger did to her, it may be even worse because the people who have passed away, they're not hurting or suffering in the physical sense anymore, but she is.

3:12:45And she's got to carry that with her for the rest of her natural life. And those of us who are parents, like in my case of a soon-to-be college-age child, you know, this is the worst nightmare for any parent. You want what's best for your family. You want what's best for your kids. You want your kids to go out into the world and succeed and to be happy. And that's the most important thing. You want your kids to be happy, but there's no amount of counseling or no therapy that can ever help undo what Koberger did to her. and can make her happy. And so, you know, that's, this all goes back to part of the problem that I have with this plea deal in the first place.

3:13:26We're just left with so many questions that might help some of these people move forward in at least maybe a little bit more satisfactory fashion. The prosecutor had every reason, I think, to go forward with the trial. Not all the questions would have been answered, but a lot of them would. We would not be talking necessarily about how many stab wounds or was he carrying a vacuum cleaner? We would know the answers to a lot of this if there had been a trial. And maybe in the weeks and months and years to come, maybe the families will be provided with the evidence that they didn't see at the trial that didn't happen.

3:14:07And maybe they'll be able to provide it to the public. Maybe journalists will be able to get their hands on some of this stuff now that the gag order has been released. But remember, it's still all in the possession, custody, and control of the prosecution. And it's really going to be up to them how to get this information out into the public if they're willing to do it at all. And I think they probably have some things that they just, to protect themselves, they don't want the public to find out about. I think that there was some hesitancy about the prosecution. I'll just, that's the nicest word I can think of right now, some hesitancy to move forward with the trial.

3:14:48I don't know if it's they didn't feel they were capable or they were somehow scared of going to trial, but they certainly seemed to jump on Koberger's. Koberger's really the one that made the offer and say, look, I'll plead guilty if you take death off the table. And it's almost like Koberger's team is making the plea offer and the prosecutor accepting his terms. And so, yeah, they jumped at that pretty quickly. Yeah, they act like they're the ones that made some kind of plea deal. I see it the other way around. I see Koberger made the plea deal and the prosecutor accepted that. You're so right.

3:15:20Go ahead, Howard. That's exactly right. I mean, and then for the prosecution, for Bill Thompson to talk about, we will move on, the door is closed, the judge said that. Well, we all heard Dylan Morton's statements. No one is moving on. This is going to linger forever. And the only thing that's going to happen is the possibility of getting answers to specific questions. Well, that's going to be a lot harder now. I think the families and the citizens of Idaho and the public have been disserved by what was done in the courtroom today. Now was the time. You know, it's creepy in the movie that I keep referencing, One Night in Idaho.

3:16:05They have a very interesting segment with the women who ran one of these public chat groups about the murders. These two women run multiple true crime blogs, and they added this one after the murders. This was the forum into which Papa Roger appeared, posting his theories about the crime. It's clearly Brian Kohlberger. And they walk you through his posts, which really kind of gave up the game. First of all, the photo, like the sort of icon that's used to represent Papa Roger looks just like Brian Kohlberger. I mean, identical. And second of all, his posts know way more than any civilian who didn't commit this crime should have known long prior to the release of that police affidavit, which had the details of the crime.

3:16:46I mean, he was already speculating about, he knew it was a knife. He speculated that they found the knife sheath. He asked some of those same weird questions that he asked in that questionnaire. He wanted to know what do you think was in the mind of the killer when he walked into the room? They were like, it was more than I'd ever heard from the Papa Roger account as these two women who ran it went through his questioning. And then as soon as Brian Kohlberger was arrested, dried up. Papa Roger never posted again, which tells me he wants attention. He loves reveling in the crime, Matt. He seems to have been getting off on it because at that point he was getting away with the crime.

3:17:27So why would a killer like this would, as of then gotten away with it, be so provocative to be making these posts in a public online crime forum? Well, we've, that goes back to Jack the Ripper, right? Megan, it's like there was, he would, That person wrote to the police and they think that those letters came from the actual killer. We saw that in the Zodiac Killer, too. That's that speaks to the narcissism, the arrogance and the grandiosity of the great American psychopath or even, you know, outside of America. It's the it's the mindset of these guys. And it's like I'm thinking of the thumbs up photo after the murders, Matt.

3:18:08You know, as you say, the grandiosity, it's it's his selfie with the thumbs up. Like, yeah, he's celebrating himself. Keep going. Yeah, it looks like a vampire in that too. And look, Megan, that photo, there's a very common thing. And it comes from a good place, I think, with most people. But when they're considering death versus life in prison, one of the things you hear very commonly is people will go, well, the worst thing I can imagine is if I was in a cell and I had to think about what I did every single day. that's imposing humanity onto the mind of the psychopath they don't think that way it's a mistake it comes it it comes from it's almost like psychological projection we think about ourselves and we think about how we have the capacity for guilt they don't think that way and the arrogance of posting stuff to an online chat room i mean it's just it's a modern version of the same thing and they these guys um i i hate to say it but they don't they just don't experience remorse like other people.

3:19:08And that's why I loved, I really love the comments of Olivia today because that kind of stuff is biting that kind of stuff. Matt, that was the other thing she got to, she said, so Jack, the Ripper was never caught, but Brian Kohlberger was caught and she got on him. Like, how are you so stupid? Like mockingly, like, did you really think you're going to be able to cover up your Amazon purchase of the knife by using a gift card. It was so diminishing. Look, I love that. I love that. I loved her. You're basic. You're nothing. You're she went she read everything that she could get her hands on written by Brian Koberger.

3:19:49That is a very intelligent woman who wanted she wanted to sting them. And she did. I guarantee that stuff hurt today. Okay. Now, speaking of stinging, um, uh, there speaking, my friend, Ashley Banfield, she had on a guy, his name is Larry Levine and he's a former federal inmate and prison consultant. And he's literally written the book that people read when they get sentenced to prison on like how to deal with prison. So she had him on not long ago and asked him some questions about what what's going to happen now to Brian Kohlberger. This is after understanding he was pleading guilty. And listen here to SOT 16.

3:20:28Remember that these people in there, none of them, well, I shouldn't say none of them, a great deal of them are not mentally stable anyway. So that's highly possible. Maybe somebody will shove him or something. That is part of jailhouse justice. I've seen people get stuck before. I've been in three different prison riots. So I've seen all this shit. But I predict within a year or less that he's either going to be dead or he's going to be physically injured in some way. Then they'll transport him, take him to a real hospital, and they'll let him stay there and get well and all this bullshit. Finally, they'll move him back over to the prison, back to Boise, and he'll be in protective custody for the rest of his life because they won't be able to put him in general population.

3:21:18And Matt, you've been saying he's going to go to special custody right for right away. Do you do we know that? I guarantee they're going to they're going to put him in. It's called PC or they're going to make him a total separate total separation. That's guaranteed. He's he's been in that in that status almost certainly the entire time since his arrest because of the notoriety of the case. It'll only increase today. But, you know, what a sad statement of the American system of justice when we're all here and we are hoping that not not that we're hoping for it, but that people are calling for prisoners like we need dirtbag inmates to achieve justice in a case like this.

3:21:59It's just it speaks to that unsatisfied feeling you were talking about earlier. I think that a lot of people across America are cheering for dirtbag prisoners to carry out what the American justice system couldn't. And back to Philip's point, you know, the the idea that the DA kind of blanked on this, that he he accepted Koberger's terms. And I just don't see any other way of looking at it because it sounds like that is exactly what happened. go ahead let me just disagree a little bit i think the prison system has a responsibility to protect him i i think that that should be enforced and it would be it would be an american tragedy if you were killed in prison i think that's not the way america works howard no and i don't disagree it's my dear liberal friend i'm not i'm not calling for it well i certainly wouldn't be crying any tears i would not cry one tear to hear i actually would like to see him suffer for a little while before they take care of him.

3:22:55But I don't know. In this matter, I feel like those prisoners, those fellow prisoners to him are allies. I'm willing to look the other way. I just, he shouldn't continue breathing our air. I don't really care about the explanation at this point, Phil. I want him gone. I feel like the state fell down on the job. If prison justice has to do it. Nobody cried when, you know, Jeffrey Dahmer was killed in prison. I mean, you know, things like that. But the state does have a legal obligation to at least do their best to protect those in their custody, such as prisoners. They don't always do such a good job at it.

3:23:33And, you know, why are they letting men in women's prisons? Yeah, well, you never know what's going to happen. But the thing that about his being in custody for life is, look, over time, whether it's a year, two years, three years from now, over time, the guard will get let down. He's going to become more in the rearview mirror and not so much of, you know, today's prisoner celebrity kind of thing. And so over time, he's going to be exposed to many different opportunities for things to happen, either at the hands of other third parties or at the hands of himself. And you just never know. He's not going to be well-liked by other prisoners.

3:24:15He's going to be in that category of inmates that really do need to be looking over their shoulder for their own safety. And he better hope for his sake that he is in protective custody. And he better hope that it's sufficient protective custody and that there's no gaps in it because he's going to be universally hated by the rank and file inmate, people that are in there for, you know, let's maybe theft offenses, property crimes, not necessarily, you know, limited to just violent prisoners. He's going to be exposed potentially to all different manner of people that are just in there for short sentences and some of them are in there for life.

3:24:53And some people in prison have nothing to lose either. And so he's got a lot of things that he needs to be concerned about. it's a long way from that selfie that we saw where it's just disgusting to me because it's right after apparently the murders it looks like he's standing in front of a shower maybe he's just cleaned himself up and he's giving this thumbs up like hey i'm very proud of myself i'm proud of of that i just achieved my mission i think he was trying to duplicate um you know maybe a jeff ted bundy or uh some other serial killer and he's very proud of himself in that picture right there But he's got a different road in front of him moving forward, Megan.

3:25:36He's got a lot to be concerned about. Here's a little bit more from this Larry Levine, who's got some interesting takes on it. All right. Here is one, SOT19. I remember something you once told me that almost everybody cries. They do because the whole realization has hit them. People lay awake and they can't sleep and every little fucking noise and the pipes in the wall, everything freaks them out. And then, you know, this is an old prison in Idaho. Maybe there's rats in the walls. Maybe he'll get a little pet or something. Then he's going to hear the other inmates are going to be assholes banging on the wall.

3:26:22They will. They're going to bang on the wall. They're going to fuck with him and they're going to tell him they're going to kill him. It doesn't matter how tough you are. And he's got no hope. That's what a lot of people, they live to see their families. They know they're all getting out. So a person serving a life sentence their first night in there, it just completely fucks with their head. You know, maybe he'll try to kill himself. I'm starting to feel better I don't know Howard Wasn't he already asking when he got arrested For like vegan Vegan menu and like the proper Cooking utensils that hadn't touched meat It was kind of crazy when he first got arrested Yes and he was also asking if he could have A coffee date with the officer Who arrested him I mean he was sort of cut off from reality He thought this was all somehow going to work out Yeah Yeah.

3:27:16And he's about to learn the hard way. Will he be able to have people interview him in prison? We'll actually suppose Katherine Ramsey wanted to visit him. Would she be allowed? I'm not sure that's even allowed in maximum custody. Well, here's what Brian Enten of News Nation tweeted out. He posted, Kohlberger will likely have his own tablet in prison, like an iPad, with music, email, and movies in his prison cell. Also, he can buy his own TV to keep in his cell. This is why people favor the death penalty, because we don't want to see them, Phil, sitting there watching probably one night in Idaho, reliving it for good time's sake in his case, as opposed to standing in front of the firing squad.

3:28:05Yeah, he's going to be rewatching all his court appearances and reliving his glory days. But look, here's a question that I've got maybe for the rest of you, Megan and the rest of the panel. And for those watching, is there a possibility now that President Trump has weighed in on this case that maybe the federal government brings some charges? Because, you know, it's possible. There's concurrent jurisdiction. There's no such thing as double jeopardy vis-a-vis the federal and the state system. And if the Justice Department were to try to pick up this case, the federal death penalty could potentially be on the table, and he could have a whole new set of problems to be dealing with.

3:28:44So look, this today, this sentencing hearing is over, this Idaho case is over, but this saga is not over. And I just wonder if there's not going to be some, to say, thought given at the federal level to bring in some kind federal charges because in the federal system, the death penalty is real. It applies, and the Justice Department knows how to use it. Here was the president's tweet just, I think, two days ago. Brian Kohlberger, who was responsible in Idaho for the deaths of four wonderful young souls, has made a plea bargain deal in order to avoid the death penalty. These were vicious murders with so many questions left unanswered.

3:29:23While life imprisonment is tough, it's certainly better than receiving the death penalty. But before sentencing, I hope the judge makes Kohlberger at a minimum explain why he did these horrible murders. There are no explanations. There is no nothing. People were shocked that he was able to plea bargain, but the judge should make him explain what happened. Thank you for your attention to this matter. The judge pointing out today, he didn't have that ability, but Matt, you pointed out last time we were together, the DA did. I'll give you the floor in one second, I want to say this. My information is that thanks to Doge, the DOJ right now is severely undermanned.

3:30:00Doge is not like USAID where you cancel the grant and you cancel the person overseeing it and you're fine. When you fire something like 240 lawyers from DOJ, the cases they were on do not go away. They now get dumped on other lawyers who are at DOJ. So my info over there is that a lot of lawyers are really stretched thin. They need to hire good lawyers over there. Hello, my friends on screen left. You do, Phil. I know you're busy with the new MK media show, but you should do it. You too, Matt. You recently left the prosecutor's office anyway. I don't think they have the manpower to go after a case that's already wrapped up, but your thoughts on it, Matt.

3:30:40Well, they could. They certainly could. We're talking about the resource of the federal government. The problem is, would they? And then what effect would that ultimately have. And Philip's right. I don't know if it's called dual jurisdiction. I don't know if there necessarily is a federal way into this. It wasn't on a military base. I don't know if there would be any federal jurisdiction because there's a college campus. I don't know if they would necessarily have jurisdiction. But the problem there, Megan, is we just saw the midnight pardons and commutations by Joe Biden were, I think they commuted 37 of 42 federal death penalty cases, I think was the number.

3:31:21The vast majority on his way out the door of federal death penalty sentences were commuted to life in prison. So even if we did get one federally, you know, I mean, Megan, you cover this, you cover national politics, you know, that's 40 years is a long time for there to be a president, as we almost saw last time, that's hostile to the death penalty, hostile to lifestyle parole, who would likely commute that long before it was carried out. I'd like to correct your statement. The auto pen was hostile to the death penalty. Yeah, correct. The auto pen decided to get rid of it in many, many cases. Or whoever was turning it on.

3:31:58Right. I want to play the following because we did not— He went on Amazon. He went on Amazon to make purchases. And so I think there could be a federal hook here. And he left the state of Idaho in furtherance of his desires to cover up the ground. I think you're looking at it in a too legalistic way. I think if the president believes a great number of the American people still want answers, I think he will somehow move things so that things will move forward in the courts. I think - You know, Philip just hit the nail on the head. Sorry, I didn't mean to step on you, Howard. Philip's absolutely right.

3:32:35He crossed state lines. That's the hook. They could do it if they want. That does give the feds jurisdiction if they wanted to pursue death. I don't know how the families would feel about going through that entire process, but they would be walking with a backstop. It's a very interesting idea. Wow. OK, so that we possibly we've plowed new ground here. I wanted to play this just because we listened to this whole thing together and we heard from Maddie's family. We heard from Kaylee's family. We heard from Zanna's family. But we heard nothing from Ethan Chapin's family. And there was a reason for that.

3:33:07His parents did cooperate with the One Night in Idaho documentary. His mother, who I mentioned earlier, Stacy, an incredible woman. I mean, I've never met her, but boy, I was very impressed by her. And here's what she said in episode three of that four-episode series, Sot 11. Sitting in a courtroom. This doesn't feel right. Why would I go sit in a courtroom with that person? Have you attended any of the hearings? No, I will not. We won't. We won't attend any of the hearings. what's the purpose? Definitely not the trial. No, no, I don't have a need to go look them in the eyes or I don't, it is what it is.

3:33:49We cannot change the outcome on this thing. We cannot bring it back. She's, she's certainly right about that. She's got a very strong head on her shoulders. Maddie's mom, Karen is a, is a real tearjerker in this series because she looks, just like her daughter, first of all. And second of all, she, she talks about how she raised Maddie and how, you know, when, when Maddie cried in the crib, she went and got her. Like she, she was always like sort of the, and I mean this sweetly, like the sucker of a mom. Like I, I can't take it. I can't take her upset. You know, life's too short. I need to help her with her distress.

3:34:27And by all accounts, Maddie turned out amazingly and turned into just an absolutely wonderful young woman. And so you can see this mother's just acute pain talking about getting the news and dealing with the news. And here's just a bit of her talking about that yellow sweatshirt that's in that photo of the six of them, the very photo that the sentencing proceeding today ended on. And, and the photo we've come to know so well that really encapsulates their friendship and the love and the vibrance and here's maddie's mom karen talking about it it's not 12. we didn't honestly get a lot back just to be you didn't you didn't want it back or you just wasn't able to come back so the stuff that was able to come back i went through and like oh some of this is silly some of this is very sentimental like i still have the yellow sweater that she was wearing that day the sleeves are still rolled up

3:35:32so I found this sweatshirt when we went down it was the first family weekend and Maddie really wanted this sweatshirt and it wasn't her size we couldn't find it and I found it in like a total different place and when I found it I was like Scott look we found this sweater and then I'm on video with her and she's cutting it. I'm like, we were on FaceTime. I'm like, what are you doing? She's like, this is how everything is worn, mom. I'm like, okay, I got to get used to this. I got to let it be. But yes, super glad we got that back. Oh my God, you guys, you look at it. There's this sweatshirt with no girl in it and no girl will ever be in it named Kaylee Gonsalves because of what that monster did.

3:36:25Those moments really bring it back to what this case is all about. Those four wonderful lives lost for no reason. I don't know my own take away on this story. And this crime is, it's so basic, but it's hug your kids, hug your loved ones. Remember that no tomorrow's promised. Don't assume you have the time. You might not. You have to tell everybody you love that you love them. You have to tell the friends that you have, that you value them. You have to go outside and look at the sky or look at the ocean and think, I'm here on borrowed time. I'm a renter, not an owner. I have to treat the things around me and the people around me respectfully like a renter should and make sure that you're connected, that you're not spending too much time working and not enough time loving and having experiences with those who mean something to you.

3:37:18it's the only comfort we have when something horrific happens. And the only comfort those parents have who were close to their kids by all accounts, I mean, especially in the case of the Chapins and Maddie and Kaylee, I don't know the, I don't know Zanna's family as well, but my God, what a day you guys are. I value you truly and sincerely. All three of you have helped us get through this case. And, um, especially you, Howard, thank you for everything. And, um, we'll continue it on with many other cases to come. Thanks guys for being here today. Always a pleasure. All the best guys. Wow. And thanks to all of you for listening.

3:37:55This is a, this is an emotional one. I wonder how you're feeling. I'd love to know how you're feeling actually. Helps me sometimes to read the emails. I don't know. I'm kind of like emotional. It's, um, it's my son's 12th birthday, you know, and you just, they're growing up too fast and they're moving on, they're moving on, you know, to new stages of life where they're a little less dependent on you. And that's a beautiful thing. And it's a necessary thing, but man, you, there's such perspective setters. They're what matters. That is in the end, all that matters, you know, and I love my job. As you guys know, I love doing the news, but my God, you know, your family, that's everything.

3:38:35That's everything. So hug your loved ones, hug them dearly and tightly today. Happy birthday, Thatcher. And, um, And we'll all get together tomorrow on a less heavy news day, though things are really breaking today on the Tulsi Gabbard documents. We'll have that covered for you with the fellas from Ruthless. And we'll have some laughs. See you then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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