Dem Candidate's WILD Texts Exposed, Lesbian Bar Drama, and Kamala's New Accent, with Glenn Greenwald | Ep. 1405

23:59Glenn Greenwald:dollars. So every single thing that we buy is impacted by the price of fuel. So it is kind of hard to picture. All right, wait, let me get to the next thing about her. I've got to get your reaction to this. It's the best part of the piece. They point out during her house tenure, she had one of the highest staff turnover rates on Capitol Hill. What a shock. AIDS cite her volatility as a major factor. Staff were required to feed live crickets, Glenn, to her family's pet chameleon, Meatball, both at her apartment and then later at the congressional office. Meatball was hungry, Glenn. His preferred diet consisted of live crickets, according to three staff members.

24:47Glenn Greenwald:I love that the New York Times is calling multiple staff members like, can we can we talk about meatball? Confirm or deny the diet was live crickets. His preferred diet was live crickets, said three, including two who fed the chameleon. Peltola instructed AIDS to purchase the insects at a pet store and then feed them to meatball. Abigail, fine and see how lucky you are. How could you possibly leave me? She's going home to be with her new baby. Anywho, aides initially went to Ms. Peltola's apartment in Washington to feed Meatball, but the congresswoman later brought the reptile into her office on Capitol Hill.

25:24Glenn Greenwald:Probably because her staff were complaining they didn't want to go to her house. On at least one occasion, the crickets escaped Glenn in the office and had to be recaptured, according to two former aides who witnessed it, as well as a photo viewed by The Times that showed aides in the office trying to trap the crickets using manila folders and small paper cups. Okay, there's more, but that's really, these are the best highlights. Yeah, you know, it's funny. First of all, when I was watching that interview she did with Lawrence O'Donnell, I honestly was thinking you can earn not only my vote, I can't vote in Alaska, I guess, but you can earn my campaign contribution if you just do one thing, like let Lawrence O'Donnell ask you a question and look at him with disdain and be like, like, what are you, retarded?

26:12I would, like, max out to her campaign immediately. I was hoping that was going to happen in that clip. Then the other thing is, I'm so angry that the New York Times has a photo. I wish they had video, which I would also pay to see, but how do they not show us the photo of her aides being forced to, like, crawl around on the ground with manila folders and plastic cups trying to capture the live crickets that she made them buy to feed to her daughter's pet chameleon meatball? If they have that, That is something we have the right to see.

26:43Glenn Greenwald:I agree. It's a dereliction of journalistic duty. This is very, very wrong. How did they miss that opportunity? And I'm not sure about the manila folder to get the cricket paper cup. I can see. Yeah. And, you know, in their defense, it would be very annoying to have live crickets. Also, not everybody loves to, like, take live animals and just feed them into the mouth of some other animal. That's like a thing that I know a lot of people do, but not everybody's well equipped or wanting to do that. But it sounds like they were petrified of saying, look, I'd prefer not to do this because they would get pushed or provoke some kind of dangerous temper tantrum.

27:21Glenn Greenwald:Exactly. They could be the next one assaulted by Mary. Well, here's my question for you. Why is it? Why is The New York Times doing this story? Because Mary Peltola is doing well now. She was not always. Before she won the primary, which was just in August, she wasn't doing as well in a hypothetical matchup against Sullivan. It was back in June, according to the New York Times-Siena poll, Sullivan up by 47. She had 45, not a huge lead on his part, but it was up. He was up over her. Now, now she's leading him and the race has narrowed quite a bit since since she won the primary with her. I'm trying to find the exact percentage she's up, but it's not huge.

28:06Glenn Greenwald:Oh, yeah. Oh, call she, by the way, which is not a betting site or which is not a polling site, but a betting site. They currently give the Democrat 72 percent to 28 percent for the Republican chance to win. That's and by the way, back in December of 2024, it was exactly the opposite. He had 72 percent to win. So why would The New York Times be doing this to her? You know, I mean, first of all, everyone knows The New York Times institutionally is more aligned with the Democratic Party. They hate Trump. That's obvious. And everything they've done and said over the last decade. but at the same time like they you know you will get reporters in there who aren't so much motivated by ideology but by careerism and they want you know scoops they want stories they want to get invited on cable news and if they get handed to them which they probably did you know disgruntled a's probably came to the new york times reporters and started saying this stuff they smell a story that helps their career i think they're going to publish it especially if they know that if they don't political will or you know axios or the washington post or whatever so a lot of it is just more like careerism over, over ideology.

29:14But the other thing is like the New York times does have reporters who are decent reporters, even though the institution is so biased. I mean, I think it's important to remember that basically the entire Hunter Biden story of what he did in, in Ukraine with Burisma, all of the stuff in China that was done by principally by a New York times reporter, Ken Vogel, who, who is great, you know, so you kind of like get even in these institutions that are very politically biased and motivated, you do sometimes slip through good journalism, because whether it's because people have a conscience about their work, or because they just have a career interest in breaking stories, they don't care which, you know, will get through occasionally.

29:54It's not like it's absolute. So I think that's probably what happened here is once you get these kind of people spreading the story around, if the New York Times doesn't publish it, someone else is going to. Hmm.

30:05Glenn Greenwald:Well, good luck to her. I actually look forward to covering her if she winds up winning this Senate seat. She sounds like she's going to be a real laugh riot. She and Meatball may be ascending to higher office. Okay, let's keep going. A couple of other stories that have been in the news and we've been covering a lot here, like the holdout Clancy juror. The holdout Clancy juror is now fighting back because Kevin Reddington, the lawyer for Lindsay Clancy, has, as I've been saying on the show this week, tried to give this guy a legal colonoscopy. He wants the holdout juror's cell phone, the actual physical cell phone.

30:39Glenn Greenwald:He wants all of his cell phone records to see exactly who he was texting and when and calling and when in the course of deliberations, he wants surveillance tape from the courthouse hallways around the deliberation room so he can see whether this guy was on his phone, etc. And he's accusing him of lying under oath to the judge when he said that he could be fair and follow the law because he didn't vote not guilty by reason of mental insanity. I mean, this is like the craziest harassment of a juror I've ever seen. And now the attorney for the Clancy holdout juror, Michael, has come out and spoken to this.

31:22Glenn Greenwald:He spoke with our pal over at Fugitive TV, who came on this program to update us. He's been in touch with the holdout juror, Michael. So now this Michael's attorney goes on with Fugitive TV and says the following in Sot 12. Very disturbed by what I've seen from Kevin Reddington this week. Obviously, he filed a motion to investigate Michael. This is setting a horrible precedent. It's an attack on the Sixth Amendment. It's an attack on the right to trial by jury. And if we follow Kevin Reddington's proposal to its logical conclusion, pretty soon we're not going to have a justice system anymore. Because our right to trial by jury is the foundation of our criminal justice system.

32:10Glenn Greenwald:I mean, where is he wrong? That's attorney Andrew Paltzik. He's the attorney for Michael Desronville, the holdout juror, again, on Fugitive TV's podcast. Fugitive TV is hosted by Ray Marcel, who was on the program, this program, just a few days ago. So just one follow up for you, Glenn, because I'm sure you agree with what he's saying, just how dangerous this is. But now there is a new twist because Ray Marcel, Fugitive TV, who's again in touch with Michael, had a little update on what the other jurors were doing when he spoke with Brian Enten, SOT15. He thinks that it's in his favor because once again, Kevin is singling out Michael.

32:52As in his filing, he's only asking for Michael's cell phone records. But what about the other jury members? Right. I mean, do you think what do you think will end up happening? Do you think they'll end up asking for all of them or? Well, that's probably going to be the fight is either ask for all of them. If you want to ask for one, then ask for all of them, because my impression or what Michael told me is almost I think he said everybody had their phone on them. It wasn't like they took their phones away and locked them away. I mean, there were juror members, which I'm not going to say names that were posting on social media, allegedly, you know, wild deliberations going on.

33:27um so either take everybody's phone or no phones at all right on so where is this going i'm actually i'm actually shocked and horrified that this is being done i mean there is no requirement when you're a juror other than just to do what you think is the best there's no proving that somebody refused to follow the judge's instructions and like from the beginning of the republic the idea of a jury trial was we used to have jury nullification all the time and and it was considered to be a good thing but here it's just like oh yeah just two quick things i have a lot to say on this but just two quick things that are about what you just showed me one is like before the identity of this holdout juror was known i found it so interesting because they were interviewing mostly the women on the on the on the on the jury who who were demanding a an acquittal or not guilty by reason of insanity verdict.

34:23And I did notice that they were speaking about the holdout juror in a very peculiar way. Like they were describing him as like arrogant and aggressive and threatening, almost like uppity. And then suddenly like the identity of this holdout juror is known and he's this black man. And I, it was like so obvious in retrospect that the adjectives they were using and the way they were speaking about him. But then also, this is what I'm perplexed by. I'm a believer in the insanity defense. It's been foundational to Western justice and the Enlightenment and Anglo-Saxon law. So I understand. I really do believe in that.

35:02But what I don't get is that if there were one holdout juror who refused to find her guilty, I could understand the public hating this holdout juror. because the insanity defense is kind of counterintuitive. And if you see a crime as primarily horrific as suffocating three young children, most of society is going to be like, we demand the person's head on a pike. Here it's reversed. People were craving that she get acquitted or that she get found non-guilty. And somehow the villain is the one who wanted to hold responsible a woman who suffocated her kids. That's the thing that's most mystifying to me.

35:39Where did this inversion of value, Usually you have to fight against society saying, no, the insanity defense actually is it matters. Having a criminal intent is crucial. But here it's like you don't have to do that. People are angry that he he he wanted to convict a woman who strangled her three young children. How did that become aberrational or worthy of abuse, let alone investigation of a juror, which is something that is so taboo?

36:05Glenn Greenwald:It's so wrong. Exactly right. This is like deeply, deeply wrong what they're doing to this man. And it's very obvious. I mean, even Joy Reid and Sonny Hostin are defending this man. You can guess why. I don't think they would be if this were a white conservative woman. But whatever, they see it. They see what we see, which is this is abuse and harassment. Yes, of a of a man who happens to be black and was the holdout juror. And then there's the famous, infamous Gayle King, like, I've just got to sit with that. The holdout juror is a black man. I've got to sit with that. Here's what he said. Michael Desronville, the holdout juror, in a written statement.

36:49Glenn Greenwald:I didn't have any doubts. I didn't have any, he's saying. As I tried to explain different possible theories during deliberation, I kept getting cut off as if I had doubts based on the evidence present. Based on all the physical evidence, key witnesses and what the prosecution presents, I thought it was enough proof that she, Clancy, knew exactly what she was doing and planned. OK, that's his take. How we're both lawyers. How on earth does Kevin Reddington prove otherwise to a judge? And and then let's say he does somehow. You know, Michael takes the stand and says, Judge, I had no doubts. But other jurors say he had doubts.

37:34Glenn Greenwald:He said them. Here's what he said. Then the judge says he had doubts and somehow gets to the and didn't apply the reasonable doubt standard because you're allowed to have doubts. The question is, is it a reasonable doubt? You know, whatever. Whatever. So in this hypothetical, the judge says he had doubts. I disagree with what he's saying now. I disavow it. I don't I reject it. And also, I am finding that the doubts were great enough to rise to reasonable. And then I'm finding that he perjured himself to me under oath when I asked him if he could follow the law and be fair. And as a result. I'm finding her not guilty by reason.

38:12Glenn Greenwald:No, the jury never got there. There was never a verdict. They never actually voted, Glenn. And as you know, when a jury is still compiled, it's still deliberating. They're having troubles, but they have not yet been dismissed. If a juror gets bounced, the remedy is you get a new juror. One of the alternates gets called up, placed as the 12th man or woman, and they start all over again. So what is this even about? Yeah, honestly, I'm a little bit mystified. And because also, you know, you saw the public reaction was incredibly paralyzed, you know, polarized. I mean, there were huge sectors of society that were like, this is not even a question.

38:57She needs to be found guilty and go to jail for the rest of her life. If not executed, the crime she committed was the worst and most horrible thing you can do. And then you had a huge sector of society that was like, no, we need to understand that people have mental health problems and they lack requisite criminal guilt. So that is a debate that is like a real debate that has polarized people a long time. Why wouldn't you expect that same polarization and different way of looking at things to be present in a jury of 12 people reflective of the community? And yet they're treating him like he's some kind of criminal because he didn't see it the way the other 11 have seen it.

39:31This is not unusual in a in a justice system where you have one or two holdouts who see things differently from the majority but that's why you need unanimity in most jurisdictions to convict somebody of a very uh serious crime and yet this that's what i'm saying i could understand it if the holdout was the person who uh didn't want to convict and and a lot of people like you prevented this woman this murderer of her own babies from going to prison and there's anger toward him. He was the one who was saying, no, I think this person actually deserves to be in prison. I'm not buying the, the, the, the, the mental illness thing.

40:08This happens all the time. There's just a trial. This guy walked up to three, uh, young Palestinian students of Vermont and he shot all three of them, you know, 21, 21 year old kids who went to college. And one of them is paralyzed from the, the, the chest down. And he tried the, the, the, the incentive defense and the jury after two hours rejected it and said, we don't believe he's insane. We believe he acted with criminal intent. This happens all the time. It's not like what he did is so aberrational. There's something about her and the story that has resonated so deeply in almost a disturbing way with a large part of the population, like an identification with her, that anybody who questions her or interjects her defense is seen as like an evil villain.

40:49And I'm finding this extremely disturbing.

40:52Glenn Greenwald:Me too. Same. And it's going to go on and on. We're nowhere near done with this. Listen to this. So the women of The View took a shot at this case. And, you know, this guy, Patrick Clancy, who was married to Lindsay Clancy, who is her victim as well. I mean, he's the father of the three children who were murdered. And he goes on 60 Minutes with his new wife on Sunday. I found the whole thing bizarre. I mean, I've said to the audience, like, Like, I don't, Patrick Clancy didn't kill these children, but I just, I don't understand a father who is told by the spouse, I'm thinking about hurting our children, who then leaves that spouse alone with the children.

41:32Glenn Greenwald:I just, she was having a good day. Well, that's terrific, but that's not reason to risk your children's lives. It's a very strange decision, I think, on his part. Again, it's not his fault, but I also just, I'm kind of done hearing from him. I'm like, whatever. I don't want to be thinking about the Clancies much anymore. So that wasn't the take of Sarah Haynes. Again, this is supposed to be the resident conservative over there. Listen to what she had to say in response to the 60 interview. Saddle Lovin. What bothers me is he talks about forgiving her, which I love, but he focuses on that and never jumps to what so many people struggle with.

42:13Glenn Greenwald:How did the marital love end so quickly? When you admit openly your wife got sick, she got sick. Like, it doesn't mean you can be with them, and it doesn't mean it doesn't remind you of the worst day of your life. But I would hope, like, in sickness and in health, I would hope that my husband wouldn't sit there and just move right along. Oh, my God. After you murdered your three children, what kind of a person would stay with the spouse after that? I mean, there aren't many things that shocked me, but I actually saw that yesterday, I think. I I'm a big believer in like loyalty to your spouse to like marital vows you know to like death do us part in sickness and health but like you have to put that into a human context and if anybody including your spouse murders your three young children it was like eight months three years old and five years old imagine if he had stayed with her and been like yeah I forgive of her, I understand she was sick.

43:19I would think he would be looked at as some kind of like freak. He would be like vilified. Like who would stay with the woman who just murdered your three young children? And that's her take. Like he has a responsibility to stay with her. And she's disappointed because he like the love broke and probably the love didn't even break, you know, but like who could wake up every day and look at somebody who murdered your three children. That is monstrous to judge him that way. Even if you want to judge him in other ways, like where You said like, not that. What?

43:49Glenn Greenwald:Like, it's so weird. It's it's it's from the same field of thought is like, well, he's he's beating the shit out of me every night. But I said in sickness and in health and good times and in bad. So I've got to stay. This is not this is not the covenant at all. You are allowed to leave your spouse if your spouse murders anyone. Never mind your three children. This is an absurd. That seems fair. That seems fair. we we've been talking about this case of this woman in maine years ago back in the 1950s or 60s who she murdered her three killed her three kids she killed her three kids she drowned them she was sent away she was found not guilty by reason of mental defect and she went back to the same husband that husband did take her back they had another three children and she drowned them too.

44:40Glenn Greenwald:Like note to Sarah Haynes. That's why he has no desire to be with this woman again. He realizes she is a danger to yes, anybody around her and why. And he probably wants to have children. His new wife is pregnant and he certainly doesn't want to endanger his future children to this woman. Also, you know, I just have a strong objection to like judging people who you don't know who have gone through something you can't possibly understand. You know, like, again, we've all gone through things that are very difficult. We lose people. That's part of life. But something like this, where your own wife and the mother of your three young babies suffocates them.

45:25I don't think you can even remotely understand what that must be like to go through probably different people like the fact that he got away from her remarried wanted to start a new family like i don't judge begrudge him any of that you know like who would who would sit in judgment of him and how he moves on from this incomprehensibly horrific experience like where i make it where do you i don't even know where that comes from in a person's brain like he had the responsibility to forgive her and stay with her well what that's like that's that is i I don't I don't even I don't I can't begin to comprehend that.

46:02Glenn Greenwald:This is the wisdom that the viewers conservative wisdom on the view in the mornings. You go on the view and you're like IQ shrinks to like seven. I'm telling you, I have more in common with that. Fuck Planned Parenthood lady than I do with this so-called conservative sitting on the view, wondering why Patrick Clancy did not stay with Lindsay. OK, Elizabeth Holmes. I'm so into this. There's going to be this amazing documentary. It's coming out, I think, October 15th, only in theaters. Now they've released the, everybody's talking about this movie. And no one's seen it except for at its premiere at like whatever, some festival.

46:41Glenn Greenwald:Here's the full trailer. Watch. You really feel you did nothing wrong? I did not. So where did things get lost? Like, how are you where you are right now? I wish I knew. I don't know. I don't feel like I understand that.

47:05So I know you guys invited me to stay here. Does any part of you worry about me being here 24 seven? I don't think so. I fell in love in that first conversation. Before or after that she revealed she was the founder of Theranos? Probably before. I mean, weren't you worried she was sort of scamming you? 100%, but what did she have to gain from me? Well, isn't your family rich? Yeah, I think that there's like a lot of different levels of wealth. You've never been suspicious that she's ever lied to you. No, never. I still have this weird feeling that there's some things that I'm not seeing.

47:49Glenn Greenwald:Because I don't have anything to hide. Okay, it was not the full trailer. It was most of the full trailer. They have little captions on the screen like, if you think you know everything, think again. And quotes from people who have seen it like, my mind is blown. I've never seen anything like this. There's supposedly some massive twist that comes in the middle of this film involving some celebrity, some female celebrity, not named Elizabeth Holmes, and nobody has revealed the secret, which is good. It's hard to keep things a secret. I want it revealed to me in the course of watching the movie.

48:23Glenn Greenwald:But we get this news about, you know, her, some shocking documentary about her before she went to prison. Just as we get the news, she's being moved out of prison. She was sentenced to 11 years. Well before the 11 years are up, they're now moving her to a halfway house, which is, it's not really jail. It's like, I don't know, like a camp that you're not allowed to leave. and you know she's a non-violent offender Glenn but like that's a pretty sweet move for somebody who by my count is I think five years into her sentence if that yeah I mean it's non-violent but it's not victimless like you do a massive fraud like this and you prune people's lives you destroy their financial security for themselves and their family it's like not a joke to to perpetrate a fraud on on on this kind of a level um you know i do i do think but like in general i think our our system of justice doesn't treat what we call white collar crimes with the gravity that they deserve um for a lot of different reasons but you know i think elizabeth holmes is like an interesting person only because of what it reveals about the people who she actually deceived i mean she deceived not just like the market at large but like george schultz and like huge numbers of like very respected names opposed to like the wisest people henry kissinger yeah henry kissinger they were all on the board they were all big boosters of her and the whole thing was general matt mattis exactly former defense secretary under trump one right i think it it is interesting about how con men or con women, like what they tap into and what people respond to, how Silicon Valley, just like the things they think are interesting.

50:09But I do think, at least speaking for myself, and I think speaking for a lot of people, the reason there's so much interest in this film is because the director and the person who's in the film, Nathan Fielder, is an absolute, like, I don't use this word lightly, genius. Like the stuff he's done. Yeah, he seems it. I mean, the rehearsal, which is on HBO and HBO Max, is one of the most complex, averse of things I've ever seen, one of the most genius works of art. He did a thing with Emma Stone called The Curse, which like really viciously satirized, like woke kind of white, upper middle class suburban couples.

50:41So he, and he just like, he just mind ups you. And I think that's why this is not going to be just an ordinary documentary about somebody we already know a lot about. I'm sure it's going to be something that is genuinely mind blowing in a documentary on like what you've seen.

50:56Glenn Greenwald:I can't I really can't wait to see it. I should correct myself. She's been in prison for three years. She was sentenced to 11, not five. So after three, she's getting moved to the camp, the prison camp, the halfway house situation. No, he looks like a genius. And like it's I wait one word of negativity from people who have seen it. Everybody seems floored. So I'm dying to watch this because I did cover this case, you know, very carefully. I know a fair amount about Elizabeth Holmes. I've met Elizabeth Holmes. I actually really liked her and found her kind of charming. I guess I'm just like George Schultz.

51:32Glenn Greenwald:I didn't give her any money and I certainly didn't vouch for her with other people. But by the way, that guy who she married is worth hundreds of millions. So it wasn't a small amount. Okay. Well, there's much more to discuss. We'll do it on the back end of this break. Glenn Greenwald is my guest for the full program today. Don't go away. We'll be right back. You might already own a firearm, but what if you could start with less lethal methods or just have them as part of your arsenal to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of actually pulling the trigger of a gun? This is where Burna comes in.

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54:16Glenn Greenwald:Back with our pal, Glenn Greenwald. He is the host of System Update on Substack. We've been doing a lot of work during the break, Glenn. We have found out that it goes idiot, imbecile, moron. Moron's the worst thing you could be. But then, according to the New York Times, Was it the New York Times, Steve? A psychology website. According to a psychology website, eventually the psychiatric world exchanged all of those for the nicer term, retard. Like they decided retarded would include all those terms. But why is it absolutely fine to say he's an idiot? He's an imbecile. He's a moron. But she can't say the allegedly nicer retard.

55:05Glenn Greenwald:Then the New York Times in 2016 had a whole article on how the scale is idiot, imbecile, cretin, feeble-minded, moron, and I guess retard was at the top of that scale. The point is there's a double standard going on here. Yeah, I personally, in case anyone's listening and cares about my preferences, would prefer to be called retard than idiot, moron, or imbecile. I just think it's like a little less harsh. You know, by the way, we see this now. Slow. Yeah, it just means a little slow. Sometimes you wake up and you are a little slow. But actually, we're seeing this now with the word autism too.

55:43Very shortly, that word is going to be prohibited as being too derogatory somehow, even though it's always been very descriptive and objective and neutral, because now the leftists created this nicer term, neurodivergent. And then there's neuroconvergent. So it's supposed to be even more value neutral. Like, you just diverge a little bit from neuronormality.

56:09Glenn Greenwald:Of course, nothing works. Nothing is good as it is. Now, I also wanted to tell you that I've been texting with Abigail Finan. I'm very sad because my Abby, after 17 years, is leaving me. She's having a third baby, and somebody needs her more than I do, Glenn. So she's leaving me, and the baby's due pretty soon. so there's been a lot of tears around here i have the wonderful kayla who's going to be her replacement but there's no replacing abby kayla's wonderful she's gonna fill a whole new role but abby is like a little sister to me staplers at her head and calling her retard in private i hope that's not true though i don't even think she would flinch if i if i did i think so this is what i wanted to read to you i said um she's she's telling me an update on something she was getting for me.

56:57Glenn Greenwald:And then I said, great. I said, now go buy me a chameleon named Meatball and please feed it live crickets. And she writes back, the closest I've gotten is maybe my role as animal control when the studio was in the other house and we had a crow in the studio, still makes me LOL. Then she writes, I'm not even impressed by feeding crickets to a chameleon. That takes just two seconds. Just simply do it. That's why you can tell she's a valuable person to your team. So, yeah, I'm sorry that she's going. That's what you need. But it's under nice circumstances. Yeah, exactly. That's what you need. Yeah, I know.

57:30Glenn Greenwald:And she'll never be gone from my heart. Here is that moment, by the way. It was Halloween a couple years ago, and we were doing like a spooky show. And we were talking to a guy who, you know, calls up spirits in old haunted houses on TV and like sees if he can feel anything. So it was kind of eerie. And at that moment, something flew through the studio. and it was just the two of us in there, Abby and I, and we freaked out. Watch this. And we heard something and we're like, she's making the big eyes at me and I'm making the big eyes at her. And she went down to investigate and there's a bird. It's in this situation.

58:06Glenn Greenwald:A crow? I believe that's usually a crow. Well, that's... Holy... As long as it's not like a raven. I mean, bring her dad. Go get Doug. This is his job. But we've had situations like that. It's funny. Oh my God, Jason. and what should we do? Well, hopefully catch it. But I mean, we've had situations where owls have been in buildings with us. Bats landed on our hats. I mean, yeah. Right now, I just say duck. He's going, what do I do? What do I do? I don't know. Oh, God. No, you can't close the door. What? It's caught in what thing? Wait, wait, wait. Wait, let me take a picture of you. Hold on. I want the audience to be able to see.

58:43Glenn Greenwald:It's caught in what thing? It's like in that white panel thing. What panel thing the door? Oh my god

59:04Glenn Greenwald:I love how Jason kept trying to do the interview. We were like, wait a minute, no. And it was, it was an actual crow. It was a, right? Wasn't it a crow? It was a, it was a crow. It was a large, large bird. We did catch it and it lived. It was set free, but it was in the studio. Was that like a hamper cover that she had picked up? No, it was like one of those trays you put on a coffee table, you know, to like fold your box of tissues. But she was using it as like a shield just in case the crow attacked her. She had like a shield. I think it was her weapon. I don't know if it was a sword or a shield in her mind, but she got it done, Glenn, as she always does.

59:41Glenn Greenwald:That's the kind of gal she is. Okay, so anyway, back to the news. We've got to talk about the lesbian bar, do we not? I would be super angry if we left without that. Yeah, we got, I mean, there's left. I'm putting the actually hard news behind the lesbian bar. We actually do have some politics to get to, but it can wait. The lesbian bar is the best story of the week, bar none. It's very clear. And here's the story. So our friends over at the Blocked and Reported podcast are the ones who broke this story. Then the Boston Globe caught onto it and wrote it up. And everybody's giving the Boston Globe credit, but that's bullshit because they are not actually the ones who broke the story.

1:00:25Glenn Greenwald:It's Jesse Signal and Katie Herzog over at Blockton Reported who broke it. And here is the story. A small lesbian bar, this is from the Boston Globe I'm reading, a lesbian bar in Greenfield, Massachusetts called Last Ditch, sparked intense controversy within parts of the local queer community after announcing it would make Saturday nights mask optional. This is current. This is not from 2020. This is current, almost 2027 America. Last Ditch, which opened last year as a bar for, quote, dykes, transsexuals, gender freaks, workers, and their friends is, you'll be shocked to hear, struggling and was hoping a policy change might help revive foot traffic.

1:01:12Glenn Greenwald:The three housemates in their mid-20s opened it together, hoping to fill the void left by two similar bars that had shuttered. One of the founders, Asa Rosario, a drag performer who uses it, its pronouns, envisioned a venue where it and its friends could perform. No one would be turned away from the space for lack of funds, poor and unhoused people are welcome in the space. The police were not shocked this didn't do well. Our mission is to create systems of care and action and aid, says Jackie Mattelian, one of the founders. Last ditch, which had required well-fitted KN95 masks or better, I don't even know what that means, like a full hazmat suit, at all times announced the change to their mask policy on Instagram.

1:02:02Glenn Greenwald:It is with love that we inform our immunocompromised disabled divas that we will be opening Saturday nights as mask optional, wrote Last Ditch. The post was definitely not received with love, writes the Boston Globe. The post triggered hundreds of angry comments, accusing the bar of being ableist, eugenicist, and endangering immunocompromised people. Quote, just say you're being complicit in a mass disabling event and get it over with, wrote one. Quote, people like you kill disabled people in the name of your own leisure and convenience, posted another. Here was the third. I hope your venue gets firebombed for robbing my fellow immunocompromised people of their Saturday plans just to escape, just to scrape extra revenue from ableists.

1:02:53Glenn Greenwald:The thread grew to 442 comments, some supportive, but many furious. Then the comments were turned off. The people running the bar were accused of being ableist, as you heard, eugenicists, etc. Commenters consider, oh, in the face of what commentators consider an ongoing pandemic. Then came the apology. Posted by the bar on Instagram, it seemed to just add fuel to the fire. To no one's surprise, they write, accessibility update. We are sorry to disappoint valued community members with access changes by a casual announcement. Our diverse, disabled, immunocompromised team make decisions by multiple open community meetings, feedback, forum review, etc.

1:03:37Glenn Greenwald:Vast feedback over almost two years pushed for varied accessibility, not one size fits all. People consent to varying risks every day to be in community, though we generally try to follow universal design. All 99 % of us marginalized deserve to be welcome. Accessibility is a pillar of our mission. We prioritize solidarity amongst groups with different needs, connecting us all in this revolution with the rainbow behind it. I don't even know what that means. I don't know what any word of that means other than they're sorry, but it doesn't seem like anything is changing. We are passive, they write in an accompanying post.

1:04:09Glenn Greenwald:We are sorry for our passive and dismissive tone of our change to the norms and schedule impacting the most intersection of us. Keep an eye on this Instagram for an update. The apology set off a fresh round of accusations of ableism. This is not an accessible post, wrote one user. It indicates the lack of care or interest in disability intersectionality. That's a thing. In the same post, the bar announced a community feedback and volunteer meetup. That's not a good idea. By the time of last ditch monthly community meeting on September 11th of this month, only one of the original founders, Matillion is still involved.

1:04:47Glenn Greenwald:The two others stepped back from the daily operations months beforehand, one citing pressures and health issues. The other had enrolled in clown school. The meeting was something. It began with a calming breathing exercise before devolving into chaos. There are some 10 people seated in a circle on the dance floor all wearing masks. Another 10 to 15 people joined via Zoom. Matillion, a handful of volunteers, some bar regulars, and two designated mediators are there to facilitate conversations between parties who disagree. One of Last Ditch's most vocal critics, the head of another queer COVID-conscious collective in Western Mass, a performer and artist who goes by Zoe Noir, joins via Zoom.

1:05:28Glenn Greenwald:He and other critics begin to flood the Zoom chat with irate messages, which are dutifully read aloud to the group. When it is Matillion's turn, she says she had never envisioned running last-ditch alone. It was not my passion project, she says. Matillion tells the group her credit score is trashed. For six months, she lived in her truck because she was pouring money into the bar, which of course nobody wanted to go to for all the obvious reasons. She is working four different jobs. She is responsible for paying off the$50 ,000 loan the three took out to launch the business. The online critics are unmoved.

1:05:59Glenn Greenwald:You chose to use your time to spill tears and center your feelings, Noir posts in the chat. This is incredibly racist and deflecting behavior. Of course, we had to get to the racist accusation. After the meeting, Noir spends the hours posting furious Instagram stories about Mattelian and Last Ditch. According to Noir, Mattelian, who uses she, they pronouns, had been shedding white they, them tears. He writes, The bar was not a safe environment, nor interested in revolutionary praxis. P-R-A-X-S, X-I-S. When asked if he had any sympathy for the bar, given the financial strain, he said, I'm not going to give grace when someone is, quote, spreading rhetoric that can and will get people hurt in reference to the mask optional policy on Saturdays only.

1:06:52Glenn Greenwald:Noir went on, these ableist ideas that disabled people, immunocompromised people, should either risk their health or just be pushed out of spaces. The Globe recalls a comment on Last Ditch's original announcement after the pylon had begun. At Scream Guy was up, asked, I'm sorry, all 400 of these crazy people live in Greenfield, Massachusetts? I ask whether the people behind the angriest posts have genuine connections to the bar. Are they real customers? Volunteer Melody Young and owner Jackie Metallian say, yes, they know many of the detractors. Connecticut Representative Rosa DeLaro on X posted Wednesday, getting a group together to visit the weird lesbian bar in Western Mass.

1:07:34Glenn Greenwald:DM if interested, can't talk here. About three hours later, she followed up. Trip canceled. No one wanted to mask. That's even with a rainbow Democrat from Connecticut. So that's where things stand, Glenn. They are the most vicious against their own. The super woke, immunocompromised, intersectional, non-ableist, whatever. You one toe out of line and they will crucify you. Yeah, I mean, I have so many reactions to this. like of course it's super fun and easy to just mock this in the funniest way for all of eternity and i'm sure i'll do that at some point but honestly like my overriding reaction the more i listen of course i've read this before it's like kind of anger and sadness every it's funny every time i've ever talked about uh trans issues and like the whole trans movement and gotten in trouble for it it's almost always because of the uh corrupting influence of katie herzog who's you know a lesbian she's a friend of mine she's a little younger than me but she you know grew up in the the kind of generation where like lesbian culture was very important to her and she's written before about you know starting years ago and before she was had this podcast when she was just an independent left-wing newspaper in seattle called the stranger she was starting to write about how trans issues were starting to kind of change and even degrade like what had been gay lesbian culture and she got viciously ostracized i mean all over seattle you would see stickers saying katie herzog is a nazi she was physically threatened all the time this is like a very left-wing lesbian who became like this symbol of nazism and fascism because it was just the slightest like analytical curiosity about how these cultures were mixing and so the fact that she broke the story is no uh surprise because i'm probably going to get in trouble again for what i'm about to say, but like, like, first of all, it's what you said, like, just take out the lesbian part of it for a second.

1:09:37Everybody knows that the hardest thing that you can do in, in American economy, the American economy is be a small business owner. And being a bar owner is like even harder. The chances that you're going to succeed is quite small. It, you work day and night, you're constantly struggling over profit margins and how to keep the bar like open and running. Every bar owner you've ever known will tell you this. And here's a woman whose bar is failing who knows why i'm sure it does have to do with the fact that in 2026 you can't go in without a mask just like for that reason alone so they're like this woman is in debt she's in debt the other owners have left one decided you know what i think it's better to go to clown school and become a clown and continue with this like you know this effort she's she lived in her car for six months she can't pay her employees and so she just tried she's like i just need one night to try and get people who will only come if they don't have to wear a mask, which is like the vast majority of people in 2026.

1:10:32And that's what led to this vicious attempt to destroy her. And they, and these are supposed to be people on the left who like identify with working people who identify with people being crushed by capitalism. And they're like, we don't give the sight.

1:10:44Glenn Greenwald:Also, we, we believe in love and tolerance, right. That with the lawn sign. Yeah. And like, here's the thing, like when I went to college, actually when I went to law school. It was like the early nineties. I went to NYU and this was at a time when like that group act up, the activist group act up was, was really starting to become powerful. And these were like very serious activists, you know, like gay and lesbian activism was very serious. They weren't just screaming and yelling. They had like learned the science. A lot of the lesbians who led it were like nurses and scientists and they developed this expertise.

1:11:15And at the time the villain was Anthony Fauci. He was the head of infectious diseases and they felt like they weren't doing enough to push big pharma to get you know so i was so impressed with like gay and lesbian politics it was serious it was confronting power centers for like noble causes they played a big role in getting experimental this is like good politics like now like lgbt politics is about attacking like the most marginalized powerless people like impoverished bar owners over this and like calling them right genus and this i it relates to the story we're talking about with those democratic women who end up getting like you know attacked for using retard or faggot or whatever this bar you could tell like in fact the owner is like a day them that's why that guy was like she's crying white they them tears it's all like the other one's an it yeah exactly these are not like you know this is not like the wall street barons or like silicon valley oh like the tucker carlson saloon no exactly these are like as woke and left-wing as it gets which is why they had the mask mandate into 2026 why it's like genderqueer and all those other things that don't even make sense but eventually that's what i hate most about left-wing politics is they never direct themselves or really direct themselves to anything that actually matters to anything powerful they'll always pick the person right next to them and you i can list almost every left-wing organization that over the past 10 years has basically imploded starting from like me too and woke and george Floyd and Black Lives Matter and all the new jargon.

1:12:44They only just like wage war on themselves. It's the most miserable place to be. Even if you have like ideological alignment with them on certain issues, all you want to do is run in the opposite direction because they're the most miserable, sadistic people. Imagine saying, I don't have any concern. It's sick. It's like sadism is where they get the world from.

1:13:07Glenn Greenwald:You nailed it. This is reminding me of Noah Rothman's great book, New Puritans, which is so excellent. I urge everybody to read it. It's just he's very smart and he turned his powers on the woke, who he called New Puritans. And that's exactly the right term for them. Like the Puritans who were so scolding and unforgiving and hated joy of any kind or laughter or dancing or, God forbid, a drink. Everything was absolutely not. and one step out of line and you would be made an example of. And that's how the woke are. And his book had all these examples of left-on-left violence. You know, like the two ladies who tried to do like a taco truck to bring other cultures to a neighborhood so that they could experience something beyond meatloaf and were killed for it because they weren't actually Mexican and they were, you know, culturally appropriating and then ruined them.

1:14:05Glenn Greenwald:example after example of how the left ruined a fellow leftist for not being appropriately intersectional or self-flagellating over the fact that they were white, you name it, like there's a long list. There is, we have a little sound here, which we should play. Here is from Blockton reported, mediators attempting, attempting to end the meeting. And we get a look at this person, Noir, the one who is calling everybody racist now and who would not give forgiveness. Let's watch some of this. Top three. As a trans person, there's a lot of emotion. There's a lot of emotional and physical labor that goes into this.

1:14:49So for you as a white person that asked me to stay another meeting for free to to vomit the same harm that Jackie that Jackie has asked, everyone has access to see is incredibly disingenuous and racist. I'm not doing that.

1:15:06Glenn Greenwald:OK, so, yeah, he's got to play the the race card. I guess that's why he goes by Noir. I don't know what that's about. Here's thought for another another sneak peek via blocked and reported of what happened at the meeting. This is community talking to community. That's number one. It's going to be uncomfortable. That's number two. Nobody is owed comfort on land in which rape and pillage has happened. We all know what's happening on a societal level. We all have shit that is happening on a personal level. nobody is owed and prioritized you want prioritized comfort we walk that back it's people who are prioritized comfort but nobody is above discomfort okay so we're on indigenous land and therefore nobody has the right to object to anything there'll be no sympathy extended to any you can never be comfortable because right 400 years ago this land had rape and pillage so who are you to comply also don't they have very white group by the way which is just ironic because they found the way to squeeze in the racism thing and by the way the the racism claim was like you made me come to a meeting for free and now want me to come to another one i don't do unpaid labor and as a white person it's race okay but let me just say too can we just stop and pause for one second making please like having heard that unless remind ourselves that all of this happened because this bar in 2026 which has a mask requirement to enter said we're just going to have one night just to try and save ourselves economically we're just one night out of the seven we're going to let people in and it's mask optional you can still wear a mask you're totally free just it's one night when we don't have a mask to see if we can attract other people and save ourselves look at all that it led to like the grimness the dreariness the anger that like, and the other thing that I hate, and I'm sure Noah Rothman wrote about this in his book.

1:17:02I remember that book that the other big part of it that's so repellent is that there's no redemption possible. There's no like Christianity, all forms of Christianity, like Judaism, Islam, like repentance is critical. Like that's the human redemption possible. And without that, there's nothing to the human condition. You err once and you're forever destroyed. the bar owner went and profusely apologized for nothing and that just made them angrier because there is no such thing as apology once you've committed some kind of crime that you're done yeah yeah or especially if you're white right or if she were like only a lesbian but like latina she would still be lower on the oppression level than like the the trans people who were like white or whatever so she would just be like you're you're a lesbian you have lesbian privilege you don't know what it's like to be a non-binary trans like everything is just like a prussian ladder that determines everything i unfortunately know this world too well here's this noir

1:18:02Glenn Greenwald:who is coming after this jackie the owner the last woman standing um and listen to your point what noir is mad about in this particular exchange sought to via blocked and reported I do want to name that since we are now apparently only doing one round, that the one round that I do think it's interesting that now that there's only one round, I publicly asked Jackie to respond to what I said and the harm that they did. And they chose to use their time to not acknowledge what I said and instead go over time and cry for three minutes. Jackie went over Jackie's time and cried for three minutes. It's a no.

1:18:48Glenn Greenwald:I will be acknowledged or you're a racist, ableist whore. That's really where it ended. But it does remind me like just whenever anybody, whenever anybody attempts to give these people one inch, the flagellation like they smell blood in the water. It will only increase. It never decreases. They they you know, you show them your belly. They will cut it open and rip your intestines out and enjoy dancing on them publicly. Yeah. You know, I do blame these people more than anybody for the backlash and the backsliding on these issues that has happened. We were talking before about like people using the word faggot just because they can't because it's a taboo term.

1:19:33They use it for all kinds of things. They just use it to use it like not because they're told that you can't. This is very human. Like someone tells you to do, you can't do something. You're going to be like, I'm going to do it. And the, and what happened was these are the people who taught everybody that if you feel like, okay, you did something that you, even though you don't think it's wrong, you can understand how other people might've be offended. Just trying to be like, typically considerate to other people. It doesn't do you any good because if you ever apologize, if you ever like take one step back just out of like kind of deference to other people's sensibilities that's when they will destroy you even further because they take that not as an attempt to like diffuse the situation but as an attempt to basically as an admission of wrongdoing and then they'll condemn you even further and so they have trained people never back down never do anything out of consideration or out of thought for other people because it doesn't work with these people they get more vicious.

1:20:28And they've trained people almost to enjoy it. Yeah, they they're the ones who have like degraded and made much more crude our public discourse through this like constant attack and constant effort to shame and destroy people simply so that they can get some sort of like satisfaction in their miserable lives. That's really what it's about. It's just like they want power. And this is how they exert power. It makes me sick to my core.

1:20:51Glenn Greenwald:You could be on the floor writhing in pain and they would take off their fake stiletto and shove it into your eye. That's who we're dealing with here. Here is an example from Noah's book, New Puritans. It's about some restaurant called Fat Rice. The controversy happened in 2018 in Chicago. The chef and owner was Abe Kanyan. The restaurant had been a local favorite since it opened its doors in 2012. In the summer of 2020, which was a tumultuous time, the restaurant's proprietors sought to convey their support for the anti-police protests that had erupted across the country with some Instagram activism.

1:21:30Glenn Greenwald:What could possibly go wrong? The restaurant posted a few anodyne images of protests and a message, quote, we remain dedicated to our values. We oppose all forms of racism and we stand with those fighting for justice and equality in our communities in Chicago and across the world. Eh, eh, it's a no. A former employee savaged the restaurant for what he deemed its insufficient gesture of support for racial justice. You're not going to say hashtag Black Lives Matter, even though you take from black culture all the time, he wrote. With that, the dam burst. A handful of former restaurant employees took to social media to allege that Conlon was abusive and his business practice were racist.

1:22:15Glenn Greenwald:What did he do? quote, they don't give any cultural context to the origins of their ingredients, wrote the former employee. That's the level of absurdity. Like it's back to the war games. The only winning move is not to play. No, exactly. And that's the problem. It's like, you know, if you want to say, hey, like there are cultural origins to different foods and it's good to like, I don't know, for whatever reason like you can just acknowledge it to show like the diversity of food like your restaurant owner yeah that's kind of interesting maybe give more information okay so like that's a reasonable conversation but they don't do that they instantly turn it into like a moral crime if not even if you are asked to do it and don't but like if you've never done it before suddenly you're like the kkk lynching black people because you didn't point out like the specific region of mexico from which you're like sauce comes from and again this is the menu it's going to be 200 pages yeah but like think of how many things in the world there are to focus on and this is the thing that they think needs to be attacked this like popular lefty restaurant and that is what 2020 and like i said i think most people are decent people most people don't like to offend others they don't like to gratuitously anger others so it's like someone comes to you and says hey like this word this practice kind of offends me you're like open to like saying oh well i don't want to offend anybody i'm not here like make anybody angry but they have really people don't do that used to be they yeah no but i but that's what i'm saying they have taught people don't do that because there's no benefit these people don't deserve that kind of consideration because they're not actually trying to find common ground they're just trying to to prosecute you and condemn you and destroy you for their own cheap and trivial enjoyment and once you understand that why would you ever think twice about who how these people react who cares in fact you'd go out of your way to do the things they don't want you to do and i think that's what they've trained people to do that's the only proper response i mean it was like it reminds me of the time bernie goldberg was on my show at fox news and he he used the word midget and i said oh i don't think you're allowed to say that anymore it's now little people and he goes what i'm like you're not allowed to say midget anymore.

1:24:32Glenn Greenwald:And he goes, midget, midget, midget, midget. That's the only proper response. That's it. Like every time you tell me I can't, I'm going to double, triple, quadruple down on saying, and I'm going to make it my mission to say it as much as possible, just to send you a message that you don't control me or my speech. And I'm not playing your very twisted games. Maybe now they, them, and it, it's, which by the way, in, in the post I saw online, two of the original owners, the two who fled the coop, have facial hair now, have full male facial hair. They're women, I think, who now have full male facial.

1:25:10Glenn Greenwald:Okay, good luck with that in clown school. After that, maybe they'll learn. Maybe they will have. I think it's a benefit in clown school, isn't it? Like, don't you have to wear, I can take a red model McDonald beard or something. What do you mean? In clown school, you should be clean shaven so that you can put, you know, all the makeup on your face. That's true, yeah. That's weird to have a beard mustache. That's true. All right. We have other stories we're going to get to. First, we're going to take a break, and we will be back with the podfather of the MK Show, Glenn Greenwald, right after this.

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1:28:57Glenn Greenwald:Glenn, there's an update today in the death of Presley Gerber, which we've been covering. It's just so awful, 27 years old. And now the Daily Mail is reporting that in the weeks prior to his death, he was, quote, quote, slowly losing his grip as he fell further into a spiral these past three months, actually, before his sudden death on Sunday, the Daily Mail has learned. Said to be, quote, really thin, gaunt, did not even like the sound, did not even sound like his normal self, according to a source close to his mother, Cindy Crawford, who added that Presley sometimes failed to make complete sense.

1:29:35Glenn Greenwald:He was getting high before he went to rehab. That's why he went, because he could not kick the habit. He looked terrible before he checked in. He was really thin and really pale. His face was gaunt. He was depressed in the weeks before his death, also jittery and again, did not make sense. He looked, says the source, like he was on meth. He had that meth look. He was far from the cover boy he used to be. He had been in rehab many times. He did not like it. He said rehab does not work. Rehab had a 98 % fallout or failure rate, he said. So he was not a fan. Both Crawford and her husband, Randy Gerber, were desperate for their son to get help.

1:30:20Glenn Greenwald:They made him go to rehab because they knew he was using. They were not going to give up on him. They tried another rehab center. They had so much hope. But in the end, he was in and out of rehab all the time. They spent a fortune and it just didn't work. We've reported yesterday, citing sources, that there's not going to be an investigation into who is giving him ketamine because there's a report that he was taking ketamine regularly, allegedly prescribed by a doctor. And this was something that he was having an addiction problem with. So there will be questions. And we understand LA police are investigating it right now.

1:30:59Glenn Greenwald:Who gave it to him? and did that drug play any role in his premature death? But what do you make of this case and the awful death of Cindy Crawford Gerber's son? I think that it's so important to remember that nothing in this world is free. And so here you have somebody who's born into a situation that most people who aren't born into that situation would think is so perfect that nothing possibly could go wrong. You're born to parents who are extremely wealthy. I mean, Sidney Crawford obviously is, her husband even more so. Because of her fame, every door opens. You have access to everything from the time you're born.

1:31:45You have every privilege, every single conceivable thing that you want. It ends up opening the door for your own modeling career. You have a sister who's very successful in her own right doing modeling and acting. And yet, obviously, there's something extremely dark and sad and missing in his soul, like in his psyche, in his mental life that led him to need drugs as a substitute for whatever he was missing. And then that developed into an addiction. Who knows? Sometimes mental health precedes addiction. Sometimes addiction causes mental health. And not only that, he, of course, has access to every single conceivable treatment.

1:32:21And yet it's not enough to save him. And he dies at the age of 27. I know you've been covering a lot of similar cases of Hayden Penn here. I think there was another case very recently of suicide by somebody. These are people who had all kinds of wealth and fame basically from the beginning of their lives. And how many times have we seen that they end up on an extremely dark road? And I think it, obviously it's very sad, but I also think it's a kind of lesson to think about what actually matters in life and what makes you happy and what doesn't make you happy in life.

1:32:50Glenn Greenwald:Mm-hmm. It's, I was looking around online just for information about them, and there was Cindy Crawford sat down with Vogue, well, didn't sit down, but walked around her Malibu home with Vogue and answered their 73 questions where it's, I, it's so awkward. Do not say yes to this if they ever ask you. It's like very bad acting. They've clearly both rehearsed the question and the answer, but they try to make it look organic. it doesn't but here's a bit of that she featured both children and a lot of her malibu oceanfront home in the piece watch you want to see around let's do it now you're stuck on a deserted island and you only have one book what are you reading anything by jody picault you're trapped in a movie theater and can only see one movie for the rest of your life what are you watching anything with meryl streep this is a little self-portrait by kaya and this is presley's Surf photography, shaka.

1:33:44So, Cindy, do you have any nicknames for your kids? She calls me Kiki and my brother P. Do your kids have any nicknames for you? Not that we can say in front of her. What's your favorite thing about your kids?

1:33:56Glenn Greenwald:That we're amazing. Kay, whose interview is this anyway? Sorry. Ask her about her sense of humor. So, Cindy, what's up with your sense of humor? Well, I mean, everyone in my family, they think I have a very inappropriate sense of humor at times. What's your spirit animal? Oh, Mama Bear. You were valedictorian of your class. That wasn't a question either. I just think that's great. Oh, excuse me. Hi, Prez. Hey, Mom. I'm here for my cameo. Wait, what was I supposed to do again? Um, ask me a question, hon. Oh, right. What's your favorite part about being a mom? Oh, unconditional love. Well, I hope that was seamless and organic.

1:34:36I gotta run.

1:34:37Glenn Greenwald:Bye. You know, Glenn, I watched this and I can't help but think of her family, dear friend. He was said to be like an uncle to her children, George Clooney, who I really can't stand. He and I have attacked each other publicly many times. However, I do respect that he and his wife, Amal Clooney, have kept their children out of the public eye. They don't want people swarming them because they're Cloonies or because of who their parents are. And I do think these celebrities who continuously put their kids on camera, whether it's to model or to act or to sing or whatever, when they're, you know, because these kids have been on camera since they were little, are taking a very serious risk.

1:35:25Well, I mean, we all know the history of what happens to child actors who become very famous. I actually think like probably the most tragic is Michael Jackson, who, you know, despite his unparalleled success and talent, you know, ended up dead at 50 kind of predictably and had a lot of obvious like roadblocks along the way, despite, you know, or because of the fact that he missed his childhood and was exposed to the public, which is hard in every case, let alone when you're a child and you're defenseless. You know, just on those lines, like there was a lot of, I presume you covered it, like a lot of that, the controversy over that article by Nicole Hannah-Jones, the New York Times reporter, about her decision to send her kid to a public school as kind of a sociological experiment.

1:36:06And of course, there's a lot of things to say.

1:36:08Glenn Greenwald:The worst one possible. Yeah, yeah. Just to like prove her ideology and risk her own kid's future, which ended up being really bad for her child's surprise. But one of the things that really bothered me about it that didn't get a lot of attention was, okay, she wrote about this whole thing. Her kid is now 16, so maybe you can say she's kind of at the age where maybe she can participate in that decision. But 10 years earlier, when she first announced her noble decision, she did it as part of a cover story for the New York Times magazine and put her six-year-old daughter, a photograph of her, on the cover of the New York Times magazine and spilled in this 10 ,000-word article all of the internal deliberations about her family, about what this kid's future should be and what should guide it and what she's like.

1:36:49I mean, to me, that's almost like criminal, like exposing your kids to this kind of excruciating, intensive public spotlight and scrutiny before they're even old enough to know what it is, let alone to consent to it or not consent to it. And so I don't know this family, obviously, so I don't want to be too didactic, but there's enough of a pattern of seeing the very poor outcomes for kids who are subjected to two-month wealth and celebrity and fame and public exposure from the time they're basically young. It is not how kids are supposed to be raised. And as parents, you're supposed to want to protect your kids.

1:37:25I mean, I can just tell you, you know, in Brazil, because my husband was a member of Congress and I did a lot of like very polarizing reporting, you know, we had to really protect our kids all the time from any kind of public scrutiny because we wanted them to just be kids and have like a normal life and not be attacked or talked about or known for anything that we were doing. And I just that was such an easy decision for me. I don't like if you're Cindy Crawford, you already have an uphill battle in keeping your kids private. And she's just dragging them as teenagers onto a screen with with Vogue or whatever it is at that age.

1:37:55And of course, they ended up in Hollywood. They ended up with the same career she had. And it just obviously is not a healthy way to be raised as kids.

1:38:04Glenn Greenwald:Yeah, it's really not. And like this article I was reading from points out, oh, they were helicopter parents. They were very involved. I'm sure they were. I'm sure they loved their children. I just you have to question the decision to thrust a 14 year old, in his case, into the modeling world and repeatedly, even when he was much younger than that, put him on camera publicly, take him to the events, make sure he gets photographed on the red rope line. It's just, this is a very dangerous thing to do. You are playing with fire. This is not a harmless act. This, you know, maybe you have a kid who takes to it.

1:38:38Glenn Greenwald:From what I know, both kids wound up in therapy and in Presley's case, it didn't work. It was too late for him. So it's very sad. But OK, we've got to end on something not sad, which is Kamala Harris. She's back and she has tried out a new accent or it might be the revival of one of her old. It's kind of like a black scent. I mean, you tell me, but she is out there making the rounds and she has decided to drop the following little bit. Do we have it? Hold on. Yeah, I'll let you. Yeah, yeah. Let's listen to it. Shirley Chisholm talked about it. If you're not at the table, bring a folding chair.

1:39:19Glenn Greenwald:Otherwise, you might be on the menu. I'm conflating to people. I think she's drunk again.

1:39:28Glenn Greenwald:It's OK to not be in love with a candidate. It's OK to vote and ask everybody else to vote because this choice is better than that one. it's okay because this choice is better than that one it's okay okay like this is so fake and affected it's cringy glenn greenwald but she's the gift that keeps on giving unfortunately the latest news this week is that it looks like she might not be running at least if you believe the five out of eight campaign aides that i think it was politico tracked down and asked who don't believe she's getting ready to run. They don't see the outward signs of somebody building a campaign.

1:40:12Glenn Greenwald:I'm holding on hope. But what do you make of her new? It's OK. Accent. You know, what is amazing about Kamala Harris, given how far she rose, is she is probably the least politically talented person I've ever seen. In fact, she has like negative political talent. There's nothing that she does that doesn't you don't find repellent. It's like always just like nails on a chalkboard everything she tries everything she says everything she does and the amazing thing is she disappeared for 18 months so you know just like doing speeches or like real estate corporations in australia for cash so you would think when she comes back after that a lot people think okay we haven't seen her in a while i'm willing to give her another but for me at least it was like barely gone like i found her as repellent as as i ever have and you know this kind of like ability to use different forms of of speaking to different audiences she was speaking to the NAACP, she was obviously trying to be as black as possible with a black accent as possible.

1:41:09It's something that like some people can do, you know, like some Southern politicians can like speak in a more Southern accent when they're speaking to some audiences, modulate a little bit when they're speaking to, you know, like national media or people in the Northeast or whatever, the banking centers. And some like Obama was good at it. He could kind of put on a credible like, but it was very subtle, like his black accent versus like the Harvard East Coast accent that he also had.

1:41:30Glenn Greenwald:Subtlety is good. Yeah. Bill Clinton did it. Hillary, I don't know if you remember, but Hillary Clinton in like the 90s, the first time she did that 60 interview, 60 minutes interview about Paula Jones, she was like, I'm not just someone standing by my man. It's like, Hillary, you grew up in Illinois. You went to Yale Law School. What is this? But Kamala, it's so everything she does is so poorly executed that I, yes, when he said like, hey, let's start talking about something that's not sad. Kamala Harris, my first reaction was, what do you mean? She's that's a very sad topic. But you're right.

1:41:58It's actually funnier than anything else, because because of how talented she is, she's so unthreatening. So you can really just laugh at her.

1:42:05Glenn Greenwald:Yes. And this will end with this clip where she's next to El Saeed in Michigan, the Senate candidate. And he looks like he would rather be anywhere on Earth than next to her. Watch. Here's another fact. The attack on DEI is an attack on maternal care. An attack on DEI to recognize diversity, equity, and inclusion is an attack by definition on maternal care, including the need to protect black women in connection with their pregnancy, childbirth, and postpartum care. If he had an eject button, he would have pressed it. well it's so ironic because he's supposed to be the left-wing candidate but he's trying to like be a normie democrat and she's like the establishment democrat but she floats in sounding like she just got out of a black lives matter george floyd march from like 2020 she sounds like the people in that that lesbian bar and yeah always off the drift bar yeah like she's just always off note you know and you're right he's just like he's trying so hard to just be like you know he had her there because she supposedly is going to help him with black voters even though I don't know if you remember that CNN segment, they went into a black barbershop in Philadelphia.

1:43:21And they're like, do you think Kamala Harris is black? And all the black guys that were like, not really. And CNN was so embarrassed. She's a mess. She has no political value at all.

1:43:31Glenn Greenwald:I can't wait to find out what she actually decides to do. One way or the other, we're either getting Kamala or we're getting Gavin Newsom because he says he's not going to run if she runs. And so, well, I mean, either way, we're going to have a good time. Glenn, things are about to heat up in the political lane. Look forward to many episodes with you discussing it all. Great to see you, my friend. Always good to see you. Thanks, Megan. Ah, the one and only Glenn Greenwald. We will see you guys all tomorrow. It'll be Friday. Here's to that. See you then. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

1:44:01Glenn Greenwald:No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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