Every Key Moment From the Lindsay Clancy Trial, Blake Lively's Final Humiliation, and Brian Entin's Dispatch From Clancy Courtroom | Ep. 1386

28:59I will say that for Lindsay Clancy. And I think this is one of the reasons why so many people have such empathy for her. She wanted help and she was jumping up and down begging for it. She told the husband, she told her mom, she told her mother-in-law, she told these doctors who she was consulting with. She called a suicide hotline twice and spoke about wanting to hurt herself, but because she didn't, quote, have a plan, they said, we can't help you. That is so beyond effed up. There was testimony just yesterday with one of the prosecution's rebuttal witnesses where Kevin Reddington asked, what would that do to somebody who's suicidal to call the suicide hotline and be given the back of the hand, the stiff arm?

29:42No. Oh, you don't have a plan. OK, bye. I get it. He's making good points. That's insane. The suicide hotline needs to have a come to Jesus moment about helping the people who have gone to the trouble to tell you they want to kill themselves, but haven't yet come up with a plan. Were they called too soon? Like call me back when you've got the noose? What the f - That's crazy. So I think all of us have empathy for her because this isn't somebody who just started to go downhill and then kept it a secret and didn't tell anybody and denied that she was having thoughts of harming herself or the children only to then do it.

30:26And also with a boyfriend on the side who didn't like children, right? Like we've seen in some of these other infamous cases involving women who killed their children. This isn't that. She was begging for help and the medical system around her did a piss poor job of helping her. They did. So that's why a lot of people say, how can we blame her? These things came over her. She was dealing with depression, insomnia, and so on. She did the right thing. She went to doctors. She asked for help. They gave her, quote, help, air quotes. The medications made the problem worse or so it appeared. And there's always an adjustment period when you go on these SSRIs.

31:04You know, they got to figure out how to titrate it and how to ease you into it. And if it's not the right drug, reportedly they only help like 30 % of the people. Like if you get Zoloft, 70 % of the people are not going to be helped by it. And so it's like this trial and error period while the person's suffering. And if they just pull up stakes and they don't have one person running hurt on their care, things can go south, you know, because then they go find another doctor and start a new, and then that person doesn't, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand's doing and before you know it, you're really playing with fire.

31:38But the bottom line is, we don't in this society say, oh, I'm sad she was dealing with a lot. I guess she's not responsible for taking three lives. It's not a question of whether you can feel for her because she was troubled. She was troubled. She was troubled. it's a question about whether legally, when she committed this act, she could understand what she was doing was wrong. And she did understand that. She absolutely understood that. That's why I believe the jury has a very real chance of accepting the prosecution's argument that she sent her husband out of the home. She Googled the route to the restaurant.

32:29She sent him to pick up food at, which was not their normal place. And it was farther, farther away from their house than the normal places that they would go. And she had Googled the route earlier. So she knew it would take longer. That, that is planning. That looks like somebody who had murder on her mind and was planning how to get rid of the husband. Cause the husband had been working from home. The husband knew she was a powder keg, though he had said that this was her best day, one of her best days. So he didn't see a warning sign that day, but he did not leave Lindsay alone with the children for a ton of time, though he had.

33:07He had let her alone with them. The defense brought that out in testimony that there had been other times when she'd spent hours and hours alone with the children. But in any event, he was keeping a close eye from the sound of it. So she, I think, recognized she needed to send him out. She sent him to CVS for a children's stool softener and then to go pick up the food. And she knew the route because she had Googled it and chose a restaurant farther away. Then he left and he called her. He left right after five and he He called her at around 5.33. He was gone like from 5.09 to 6, just after 6. And it was in that hour she killed the children and tried to take her own life.

33:58And he called her up, and she missed the call, but within seconds, she returned the call. They spoke for 14 seconds. He said she sounded distracted, like she was busy, like he thought she was maybe giving the children a bath. And had a brief exchange about the medicine, hung up. And by the time he got home, his children were dead. So it appears by all intents and purposes that she was either in the midst of killing those children at 533 or had just killed the children. I mean, she understood to keep it a secret. She understood not to tell that he might get home to stop her. And she didn't want that.

34:43wasn't consistent with her plan of sending him out so she could get it done. And then she went upstairs and threw herself out the window. Now, frankly, I don't understand the people who say this is a fake suicide attempt because she dove out the second story window, like headfirst toward the ground, 20 feet below. Seems like a real suicide attempt to me. Some people are pointing to the superficial wounds. She tried to cut herself horizontally across the neck and horizontally across the wrists. And many people have said that's obviously a fake attempt because among other things she had Googled, how do you cut your own carotid?

35:24I don't know what one finds when one Googles that, but presumably somebody would have made clear to her, it's an artery that runs up and down on the sides of the neck, not in the center, where a man's Adam's apple would be. And some people are saying she's a nurse and she would have known that. I don't think nurses have quite the bio and the human biology exposure that a doctor gets with their own cadaver and all that. So it's possible she didn't know that or had forgotten or got the wrong information from Google. Who the hell knows? But the point is, if that's all she had done, okay, I could see it.

36:02This was a fake suicide attempt. She dove headfirst at the second story window. I accept she tried to kill herself. Not to mention the calls to the suicide hotlines and the multiple writings she had done. It emerged at this trial that she had Googled, sorry, she had written in her notes. I'm going to pull up my own notes on it, so I'm giving you the accurate quotes.

36:30Stand by. Sergeant Timothy Cipini testified on August 14th that they extracted highlights from her phone at the police department. And she had, she had Googled, where is the carotid artery? Can you turn off airbags on a Kia Sorento? How to slit throat and die? She searched. and she also searched, can you treat a sociopath? Now that's really interesting. Can you treat a sociopath? Someone who has no empathy for others, no empathy whatsoever, does not process human emotion the way the rest of us do. I mean, this is where her worst detractors go, that she was one. She was a sociopath and And that's why she killed the children, that it wasn't even altruistic filicide.

37:29She's a sociopath who was done being a mother. The kids were kind of difficult. Her life was tough. She wasn't getting enough sleep. She didn't want to be a mother anymore. So she got rid of them. I'm not quite that cynical, but that is what some people believe about her. So she clearly did want to die. I mean, I don't think you Google how to slit throat and die. Uh, can you turn off airbags of a Kia Sorento? Uh, and where's the carotid artery if you're not thinking about dying? I mean, I suppose you could make the argument she originally considered doing those things to kill her children. Uh, but there's plenty of evidence that she was calling suicide hotlines and telling providers that she was having thoughts of harming herself that I accept she wanted, she wanted to kill herself as it turns out she would live.

38:23She would become a paraplegic. Some people are suggesting she's a quadriplegic. She's not. She's moving her arms and her shoulders and her upper body. She's leaning over. She's a paraplegic. And she's in a wheelchair in court right now. And I think she very much intended not to wake up when she jumped out that window. I think she did want to die. But none of that changes whether she knew right from wrong. And the doctors have testified about the methodical crushing of, because she also took pills before she jumped out the window, the methodical crushing of the pills, the lining up of the drink, like that would have taken time.

39:03It would have taken planning and so on. And all of that is evidence that she was of sound mind. She was making logical decisions and she had ordered thinking. All right, I want to go back over a couple of these points with actual trial testimony. And I'm going to start with Patrick Clancy. All right, here he is. And he was helpful both to the prosecution and the defense. He was called by the prosecution, but he had a lot to say that was helpful to Lindsay's defense as well. And here he is describing a bit of the background to Kevin Reddington on Cross. This is via CBS Boston, Sot 3. What kind of a mother was she?

39:52She was very dedicated. She did everything. She started reading them books at three months.

40:03And she made up songs for them. I remember she used to make green eggs and ham for Cora because she liked that book. To your observation, did she love Dawson? She loved Dawson very much. Did she resent him? No. Okay, so she did not resent the children. Then he is asked by the prosecution, in the early months when she started having troubles and he was still going out and about, what did you see in your wife, Satforbi? During those months when you're going to the beach and out on the boat and visiting with friends, were there any signs of anxiety in the defendant during those months? I would say starting in September, yes, but in the previous months, not so much.

41:00When had she been scheduled to go back to work? I don't remember the exact date, but I think it was October. So again, it was that pattern of as it became closer in time to go back to work, she started to struggle? Yeah.

41:22During the times when she would get anxious, when it was time to go back to work and she would start being anxious, did you ever have any difficulty understanding her when she spoke? No. And did she ever exhibit any behavior that made you concerned enough to call a doctor or want to commit her? No. Here's the defense talking about that same time frame. SOT 5. What happened in September, October of 2022? Lindsay's mental health started to deteriorate. And when you say that, sir, what is it that you, as her husband, observed? Just increased stress and anxiety. Do you recall, whether or not, to your opinion, that she had any reactions to the Zoloft that she had been placed on by Dr.

42:19Tufts? Injection. I don't know any observations that were made. Right, so it's not guesswork, it's observations, anything you saw and observed. Yeah, it seemed to align with her insomnia symptoms. Now, the insomnia, inability to sleep, was that a significant problem from your observations with her? Yeah, it was a huge problem. And when you say huge problem, was there one point when she was on medication from Tufts that, in fact, she had gone 48 hours, I think, without sleep? Yeah. And that was disturbing to her? Yeah, and it was just hard to function. And how about you? Was it disturbing to you?

42:58I just wanted her to get sleep and feel better. um now here is her mother lindsey clancy's mother testifying about a text she got same time frame october 20th i remember some of the children had three months to live from lindsey listen here asat 19 mom will you please come up and stay with me for a bit I'm really sick. Something is wrong. I had horrible insomnia all night, and I just don't know how I'm going to get through the day. I started taking the medicine my doctor prescribed for anxiety, and I think it's made things worse. It's just really scary, and I don't want to be alone. So she's reaching out.

43:46She's reaching out for help. Come stay with me. I'm really sick. Something's wrong. I think the medication has made things worse. and it was making things worse for her. She was going downhill on these meds and she knew it. Back at home, by the time they got to January, she had already done a stint at the beginning of the month, at January, in McLean Hospital. So she was hospitalized for a very short period. I think it was three or four days at the beginning of January, but was released. Here is a question back to the husband on what she was thinking, what she was like when she went to the hospital at the beginning of the month, SOT9.

44:33Can you tell the jury what her state of mind was as she went to McLean Hospital with her husband on New Year's 23 at that point? She was scared. She didn't want to go. But I think it was the second time we went to the ER and I said, you have to go. Do you know whether or not she saw a doctor or psychiatrist ultimately from McLean Hospital? I was not aware of that. The only one I was aware of was the doctor on the second to last or final day. And was that Dr. Goodhart? Yeah. And did you speak to Dr. Goodhart? I ended up calling her. What's going on? I wanted to see what her evaluation was. and so I gave her a call and we spoke and she said, you know, she's clearly depressed.

45:30Sustained. There was an occasion where she told you in the presence of her mother that she was having horrible thoughts, right? Right. And you told us about that yesterday and it was quite an emotional thing for her to do that, right? Right. So he's testifying she was admitted into this McLean Hospital. This is post. She had been seeing Dr. Jennifer Tufts via Zoom only, the one who had just finished her medical residency, for those initial fall months in the September, October, November timeframe. By the time they get to New Year's Day, she needs to go in hospital. And that is where Dr. Aaliyah Goodhart took care of her.

46:13She took the stand in this case. and here's how that went. Prosecution and then a bit of defense, not 25 and 26. Major depressive disorder, severe without psychotic features. During this interaction with her on the January 3rd, did you observe any signs of psychosis? No. There's several things. She was future-oriented. She was Jilly invested in her children. She was a caring mother, just like a caring mother. She had her parents around to help her. She had family and supports. But in order for a person to receive intervention, they have to identify that they have an intent or a plan. Yes. And to your knowledge, based on your experience and your conversations with this particular patient, did she ever indicate that she ever said she had a plan?

47:12No. No. No plan. And these are apparently the magic words in psychiatry. So she was released, and within three weeks, she will have killed her children and tried to kill herself. Here's back to Patrick on first her suggesting he go to this 3V restaurant, which was farther away than the normal ones. It's not 11. I want to direct your attention to 4.53 p.m. that day. Did you receive a text from Lindsay about dinner? Yeah. And do you recall what it said? Something along the lines of, do you want to get takeout? I haven't planned anything. Do you recall it saying, any chance you want to do takeout from 3V?

48:01I didn't cook anything. It's been a long day. Yep. Had you been to 3V restaurant previously, alone or with the family? With the family. And approximately how many times had you been there to eat? Probably three times. And so you had all gotten in the car and driven from your home. Had you ever done takeout from there before? No. Where would you typically do takeout when you were going to do takeout at home? The Chestnut Grill. I think another one was West End Grill. Were those closer than 3V to your home? Yeah. So Lindsay suggested 3V and you agreed. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay. Did she send you another text at 4.56 p.m.

48:50asking you to take a look at the menu? Yeah. And did you send a text at 5.06 p.m. about Callum? Yeah, I asked if he had taken a nap. And did she respond? Yeah. It's chilling to just know what's leading up to, what all of this is leading up to. He went on. This is when he was leaving the house, Sot 13. Who called in the order to 3V? Lindsay. Once the order was placed, what did you do? I came upstairs. I took Callan for a minute, and then I rocked him by my knees, kissed Cora on the head, and I settled right back. Do you remember what the defendant's... Well, first of all, where was the defendant seated when you left the house, or was she seated?

49:49She's standing in the doorway. Where was she? in the doorway of the living room and um was that the doorway by the front door or the doorway by the basement door this doorway by the basement door okay and um did she have calendar or where was calen she had calen okay and what was her demeanor uh normal

50:15one more before we take a quick break stop 14 his call and did you receive a call back from her about a minute later at 5.34 p.m.? Yeah, that's correct. Okay. And can you describe that phone call for us? It was very brief. I just said, I think there was a generic brand and I said, is this one okay? And she said, yeah, that's fine. And what was her demeanor during the call?

50:42She's pretty quiet. It sounded like she was busy. I remember hanging up thinking she's probably in the middle of giving baths or something like that. So it sounded to you like she was in the middle of something? Yeah. Were you able to understand her when she spoke to you? Yeah. And did she seem to understand what you were saying? Yes. She stopped. She took a call. She was lucid. She did not sound out of her mind. They dealt with the business of the CVS. And then she went back to whatever it was she was doing in that particular moment, which was either killing the children or having killed them, about to go upstairs and throw herself out the window.

51:23That is tough, tough, tough to argue. That's a psychotic woman in that moment. We'll pick it up there when we come back with Brian Enten. Don't go away. Our sponsor, the Electronic Payments Coalition, says Washington politicians are always getting in your wallet and that now they're messing with your credit card. They say your credit card and the security it offers are under attack and that Senators Dick Durbin and Roger Marshall want to change the nation's payment system to benefit corporate megastores like Walmart and Target at the expense of everyday Americans. Credit cards can keep your payments secure and provide rewards that families use to help make everyday purchases more affordable.

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53:12When we left off, we had Patrick Clancy talking about his call with his wife when he was out running the errands she sent him on. And we know now that in the midst of that call somewhere around it, she was murdering their children. and he has testified about what he saw when he came home, which was his wife on the front lawn, injured but alive, saying she tried to kill herself. And it appears that at that point, it didn't dawn on him that his children might have been hurt. He asks where they are and she says in the basement. And it's not until EMS gets there to take care of Lindsay's injuries that he then goes to check on his children.

53:56and unfortunately finds them in the most gruesome state possible. She's strangled them, not with an exercise band, as people are loosely saying, but with a cord. You know, it looks like a bungee cord, a different color for each child. They played in court the 911 call that he made upon that discovery. they did not release it to the public because presumably it's just so difficult and gruesome and awful but at some point it will become part of the public record however um the daily mail had a reporter inside the courtroom who was there as it was played and she spoke with our next guest who i'll bring in after we play this brian enton he's with news nation and she described the call here's that it was one of the worst the worst thing i've ever heard it was the screams coming out of patrick were just unearthly and guttural and unlike anything i've ever heard really and you know it's i think it's important to note that you know the beginning as you say that he he went he found lindsey and he was panicked you could hear the panic in his voice but he was still very coherent and he was able to talk to the dispatcher about getting emergency responders there he was able to reassure Lindsay and then when emergency responders arrived he was heard saying I'm just going to go check on the kids you could hear him running down the stairs and then just these unearthly screams and yeah and then he was unable to speak he his words were indiscernible until he screamed out she killed the kids and i mean the whole courtroom was just torn apart by it you know it was jury jury members were crying lindsey's parents were crying members of the media the public lindsey herself hunched over the defense table quietly sobbing but then when the judge immediately called the recess the second that stopped playing he cleared the courtroom and she broke down in loud and controllable sobs.

56:12I mean, it was very distressing to everyone in that room. It's amazing to think of Lindsay Clancy sitting there, hearing that description, hearing her husband find the scene, and having an independent memory in her head of having done it, having caused it, having an independent memory in her head of strangling her three children who depended on her for everything. It's just unfathomable. Joining me now is Brian Enten. He's senior national correspondent for News Nation. He's been on the ground covering the Lindsey Clancy trial, and he's hosting a special on the CW next Wednesday, September 2nd, about the case.

56:53Brian, welcome back. That was Rachel Sharp of the Daily Mail recounting a very, probably the most difficult moment in court for all in attendance. You've been in there for the past few days watching. What are you seeing from this jury, which we know is 12 women, six men. That's 18, of course, but we just don't know which 12 will wind up becoming the actual 12. They keep the alternates watching the trial, though. Nobody knows who the final 12 will be. So in any event, what are you seeing from them? Yeah, well, first of all, I'm outside the courthouse now, and the bite you just played about the 911 call, it's interesting because the 911 call just came up again within the last couple of minutes, Dr.

57:37Sofoff is on the stand, who's a psychiatrist testifying for the prosecution. And he testified, as you said, that Patrick Clancy spoke about how he talked to Lindsay, and she talked about trying to commit suicide and sort of what happened, and said that the kids were in the basement. But Reddington, the defense attorney, was really pushing him on that, saying, but on the 911 call, all you can hear are moans and sort of screams from Lindsay Clancy, almost insinuating that Lindsay Clancy never said anything outside the house when she was on the ground. And it was just kind of an interesting back and forth.

58:11And I was trying to figure out what Reddington was trying to get out. Like, was he trying to point out that Patrick Clancy wasn't totally telling the truth? It was kind of hard to understand where he was going with it, but he was really pushing the psychiatrist on that. In terms of the jury, I've just been staring at them when I've been inside the courtroom trying to figure out what they're thinking. You know, it's mostly women, you mentioned it, the women are almost all over 40, over 45 years old, well-dressed. They seem very, very tuned in to everything. No one ever looks tired. You cover some trials and you can tell people are nodding off and they're exhausted by this point because it's been weeks.

58:46They don't seem like that at all. They're locked in all the time. Many of them are taking notes. And it's hard to say what they're thinking. Yesterday, they seemed a little frustrated towards the end of the day because they've just been going back and forth during this rebuttal. And two of the women kind of looked at each other and almost like rolled their eyes, like, here we go again, because they keep going over the same thing. So they seemed a little frustrated yesterday, but definitely paying close attention.

59:13Frustrated at how the witnesses were performing or just the line of questions? I think it was the line of questioning yesterday because with this rebuttal, again, they just go back and forth so many times and it gets kind of repetitive. And I think that they were just kind of like, let's get the show on the road kind of frustration. You know, I started the hour, the show today by talking about the difference between Jennifer Sprague, who's the assistant district attorney trying the case, and Kevin Reddington, and how much more likable he generally is in that courtroom and very effective too. Jennifer Sprague is getting a very different, you know, she's having very different feedback, Brian.

59:51People don't seem to much like her or the way she's performing in there. Are you seeing any of that? Describe the differences in counsel. Yeah. And they had a little bit of a spat maybe 20 minutes ago in there that was actually kind of funny. He kept calling her Sprague and she didn't like that. And she kind of butted in. She said attorney Sprague. And then he again purposely called her Jen Sprague and she just kind of rolled her eyes. But then he later called her attorney Sprague. So he's very, very confident. I mean, it almost feels like he is in full control of the courtroom, even in a way that the judge isn't in control.

1:00:24And you can tell that him and the judge go way back. He seems to know the courtroom staff. I mean, he's 75 years old. He still does 10 trials a year, he says. So he kind of knows everybody. And it's full confidence. And it's sort of just a different vibe with her. And she just kind of seems grumpy most of the time. And just that kind of personality hasn't really come through with her. And even after court every day, Reddington comes out and he talks to the media. and he doesn't, you know, when you cover some trials, you know, they'll like rush out or they'll run to their car. I mean, he stops, he talks every day, he answers everybody's questions, whereas she just kind of goes out a back door and you never really hear from her.

1:01:04Yeah, you never do with the prosecution. But what about, talk about Lindsey Clancy's presence inside that courtroom. You've been covering it, watching it through the screen, as we all have, and then you get out there last week and now you see, now you're in the courtroom that we've all been watching on screen. And you get to lay eyes on Lindsay Clancy sitting there in the wheelchair. Tell us what you saw and your reactions. Yeah, it's an interesting vibe in the courtroom, especially on Monday, because there were so many, I mean, you've got the media in the corner, but then the rest of the room is filled with 99 % women who are there to watch the trial.

1:01:40Some of them are in the pink shirts, supporting Lindsay Clancy. And then you've got the women in the white shirts who are, they say, supporting the kids and they want Lindsay Clancy to be found guilty. And they're all throughout the courtroom, So it's interesting that they're in there and they're in their different color shirts and she clearly sees them. During the testimony, she just kind of looks dead on without really kind of much emotion. While I know she had some emotional outbreaks early on, but since I've been here this week, I haven't seen much emotion. The most interesting moment for me was there was one day when court ended.

1:02:12They were going into a break and they kind of wheeled her away from the table. So she was almost facing the door. And I was as I was walking out, we kind of locked eyes for a second. And it was just strange looking at her knowing what what she did. I mean, she's admitted to doing it. And also, I mean, she's really put together. That was the other thing I kind of thought of. Like her hair is is done nicely. She's clearly like curled it every day. I mean, I don't know what women do, but it's like, you know, like a flat iron or whatever. And she's got like nice clothes. She's got like nice clothes on.

1:02:41You know, she doesn't look disheveled at all. She doesn't look like mentally ill. She looks like totally with it, but she's just there in the wheelchair. And I've actually heard from some from sources outside the courtroom connected to the case that her mental health right now, they say, is actually very good. That, you know, she she is fully with it now. And it feels like that in court. Do we have any idea on the medical cocktail what they did to get her to this point? Because one of the main points that the prosecution is making is, OK, she allegedly heard a male voice telling her to commit these murders.

1:03:13so convenient that she had never heard it before, never before. She said to the father and to her own mother, I'm having thoughts. I'm having thoughts, those are her words, of killing, not killing, but of hurting the children. Do you have a plan? No. And Patrick said, I felt comfortable leaving her with the children and had before with nothing happening, but never had mentioned voices, a male voice or someone instructing her in her mind on what to do until, this is what the prosecution's experts are saying, the 18 minutes in which the crime happened, which they found very suspicious. I think we have that.

1:03:53Hold on a second. Yeah, here it is. This is Dr. Kirk Halbern making this point, SOT 35. The way she described this as happening is that she heard a voice that she'd never heard before, experienced an hallucination. And she's never experienced it since, but she only experienced it for the 18 minutes or so that it took to kill the children. And to put it mildly, that would be a very, very unusual.

1:04:37Why is that, doctor? Why are you careful when someone tells you that they only experience this voice during a criminal offense? Well, because it provides a convenient way of lessening your own culpability. Okay, so that's him casting doubt on whether she really heard the voice. But we do know that if she did hear the voice, it was only that time. It was only the day the murders, no record of her hearing it before. And no record, it seems to be undisputed, she never heard it from the time she was found on the lawn thereafter. Her defenders will say that's because she's on a different set of meds now.

1:05:21She's been hospitalized. Do we know what happened on the medications before versus after? We don't exactly. It's been very confusing following the medications because they were changed so many times. And then there were times that she chose not to take the medicine. So it's been kind of unclear exactly what medicines she was on at what time, including when the murders happened. But again, today, the psychiatrist on the stand is saying something similar to what Dr. Halbern said, that he's not convinced that it was actually a voice. He thinks that it was more of a thought, that she was having these thoughts and that she's confusing it with hearing a voice just because this psychiatrist today, who, by the way, is like the top scientist for the FBI behavioral analysis unit, says that it would be unusual to just have, as you said, the voice in that one period.

1:06:12Granted, Kevin Reddington, the defense attorney, has been calling him out and calling the psychologist you played out from yesterday because they didn't really spend much time with Lindsay Clancy. I mean, today's psychiatrist literally did a one hour Zoom with her. And this was only a couple of months ago and has even admitted that examining someone years after something like this happened is not the best way to do it. So he's been trying to kind of poke holes and, well, do they really even know what she was experiencing? Here is that FBI doc that you referenced, Dr. Gregory Sadoff, talking about the same issue about if you're really psychotic, the voice doesn't come and go.

1:06:52Here is Sot 03. This is court on Tuesday. Doctor, based on your training and experience in dealing with diagnosing and treating people who have psychosis and what you've learned in all your training and schooling, is it typical for someone in psychosis to hear a voice only one time, never before, never after? No. And again, based on your training experience, is it typical for someone in psychosis to hear a voice that's constant rather than intermittent? No, that is not typical. And is it typical, based on your training experience, for someone to hear command hallucinations and for them to stop abruptly?

1:07:44No. No, committing the act is not curative of the voice. I've not ever seen that. And yet the defense put up experts of its own, Dr. Paul Zeisel and Philip Resnick, who did say that she had documented with them hearing the voice that this was psychosis and that she was being controlled, she thought, by an outside force. Here's just a bit of that, Brian. This is SOT30, Dr. Philip Resnick, who testified for the defense. He also testified at the Andrea Yates trial and has consulted on a lot of trials, including the Jeffrey Dahmer trial, which I opened the hour talking about, SOT30. And at the time of the crime itself, on January 24, 2023, his planancy was frankly psychotic.

1:08:41Those are dangerous command hallucinations. Now, in Ms. Clancy's case, she had not only a command hallucination on the day that she killed her children. She had what is known as a delusion of influence. That is, not only did she hear a command, but she felt that her body was taken over by an external force where she was in a dream state and did not have control of her own body. It was almost like she was a puppet and someone else was pulling the strings. Hmm. So this jury has had quite a few medical experts saying diametrically opposed things to them, Brian. And many people believe it's going to come down to just how sorry do they feel for Lindsay Clancy, if at all?

1:09:43Yeah. And I keep hearing this term like the battle of the experts. And it really is because there's been even since I've been here, so many experts who have all said like literally the opposite things. and even the prosecution doctors evaluated her together. They went into the hospital together and evaluated her at the same time and had different theories about what actually was going on in her brain. So you have to, it just makes you think about psychiatry. I never really thought about it this much until I was sitting in there like, just what a non-exact science it is that you've got all of these different doctors who can't even agree on exactly what happened here.

1:10:22And yeah, that's what it's gonna come down to. I mean, they're going to have to decide who they believe or, as you say, just whether they feel sorry for her. And just the fact that there really doesn't seem to be another motive here for why she would have done this. I mean, everyone, for the most part, has agreed that she was an amazing mom. They tried to talk a little bit about a financial motive today, but that doesn't really seem to add up. So there's not another motive secretly out there. They spoke again today. They went through all the cell phones. They went through all the emails. They went through all the journals.

1:10:54That's when you see all these like crazy theories on TikTok. It's like they would have found this stuff. The prosecution went through everything. But it doesn't seem like there was some other motive out there for her to do this. Well, there are some people out there suggesting that the father did it. And I saw you were in the scrum yesterday around Kevin Reddington as he left where he was asked. This is her defense lawyer. You know, did Patrick do it? Not that in those exact words, but, you know, asked about these theories. and he was like, oh, come on. You know, I got enough trouble trying to defend Lindsay.

1:11:26But he was rolling his eyes. Lindsay doesn't dispute that she killed the children. She doesn't dispute that. The whole thing comes down to whether she should go to a mental health facility or whether she should go to jail. I mean, that's really what we're arguing over. And the legal standard, Brian, is that the prosecution has to prove that either she didn't have a qualifying mental disease or defect, or that any such condition did not deprive her of the substantial capacity to either appreciate that her conduct was criminal or wrong, or conform her conduct to the requirements of the law. To me, this all comes down to the prosecution trying to argue that she did not lose her ability to appreciate that her conduct was wrong.

1:12:16She knew her conduct was wrong. That's why she sent the husband out to the farther restaurant and waited until he left and did all the things she did because she didn't want to witness. She didn't want to be stopped. And she wanted to make sure that those children were dead. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. When you talk to the lay people around the courthouse, because I know you're great about talking to everybody on scene like this, do you get any feel for how what the mood is yeah i mean look it's pretty divided it started out with mostly the pink ladies i'm sure you saw them all of the women um in pink who have been outside supporting lindsey clancy and there was that one day where they lined the street and actually cheered when her van arrived which i talked to the organizer of the pink ladies yesterday and she said that that was not the plan by the way she's like i told everybody to just be silent and hold their signs and they just crazy impromptu cheered and she was actually not happy about it She's like, this kind of like caused a controversy and we don't think of her as a hero.

1:13:13And it turned a lot of people off. There are even people I knew who were supporting her that that moment kind of like turned it for them. So you've got those ladies. And then in the beginning, the white shirt ladies were not there, but they've now also come on. They all kind of are in a field outside the courthouse and they are there to support Lindsay Clancy's children. They have usually T-shirts and signs with the pictures of the three kids. and they believe she is guilty. But what's interesting is I went around and talked to all of them the other day and all of them pretty much agree that she was mentally ill and don't think there was some other secret motive for the most part and think that she probably did have postpartum psychosis.

1:13:53But to them, it just doesn't excuse the fact that a mother murdered her children. I think they're right. I mean, honestly, I know you don't opine on these things and on the conclusion you report, but I will say, like, I agree with that. I agree that, I don't know about psychosis, but she definitely was severely depressed and having massive issues. I mean, generally taking Zoloft or Prozac does not cause psychosis and make you kill your children or those drugs wouldn't be the huge juggernauts that they are. So, and then there's been testimony that postpartum psychosis does not, if you get it, it does not go eight months post birth.

1:14:32And so that's being rejected. And it is important whether this was an internal thought. I want my children to die and I'm going to be the one to do it versus a voice that you're hearing, which would be more consistent with psychosis, with a true insane event taking over as opposed to you got really depressed, you had enough, you felt you had no other choice, you were going to kill yourself and you didn't think the children could or should live without you, which is really the prosecution's theory, which that doesn't make you insane. You're depressed and this is sad what happened to you, but we can't start giving mothers a pass just because they're super depressed when it comes to killing their kids.

1:15:14I mean, that's basically how this shakes out. Yeah. And I think it's interesting to point out too, that if she's not guilty by reason of insanity, she could get out. I mean, if what I'm hearing is true, I mean, she's overcome the postpartum psychosis. She's been in treatment and that she's doing relatively okay now. If she's not guilty, yes, she'll go to the institution immediately. But I believe that in a few years, she'll come back before the judge periodically. She very well may get out and walk free. Granted, what kind of life will she have? I mean, she's obviously miserable because she killed her kids and she's in the wheelchair and all the rest.

1:15:54But I don't think it's going to be like a Susan Smith where she stays, you know, in a lockdown facility for decades. I really don't. Yep. Well, that's, that's important to think about. I mean, because we've been thinking about it, that she'd be locked up, you know, perhaps even longer in a mental health facility than in a jail. But you're raising a good point. If she's already on the path back to wellness, how long would they keep her? If she gets to the mental facility, they let you go when they think you're not safe. Sorry, I didn't mean to say Susan Smith. No, I know. Yeah, yeah. There was a moment with this Gregory Sadoff, the FBI doc, yesterday where it was chilling, Brian.

1:16:35You must run in the court for this. They were talking about what the children must have gone through. Would they be like little puppets she could easily manipulate or would they have fought. It was just so dark, but it's relevant because this jury, they're humans like you and I, and they will absolutely have reactions to any time spent over that target of what the kids actually went through in the moment. Here is part of that in SOT 05. Doctor, is there any significance to the fact that this voice is telling her to kill the children, but not telling her how to kill the children? yes and what is that

1:17:24you know just like adults children have a will to survive strong strong will to survive I think it's just part of being human and so

1:17:40I know that Dr. Resnick described Ms. Clancy as acting as if she were a puppet, but the children are not puppets. hmm they the jury has seen the autopsy photos brian i mean the jury has gone through a lot in this trial and i'm sure they are at their emotional wit's end they've not been sequestered however right they've been going back home at night yeah they haven't been sequestered um and back to what he was saying there i mean we've heard that it you know may have taken three minutes for each child to die. And she had to go one by one. And remember, Cora is five years old. Yeah, and there's even been talk of the little boy found, you know, in the office, like may have tried to run away.

1:18:40So it's hard to look past that. And just for anybody, even me sitting in there, I mean, okay, psychosis or whatever this was, but like, that doesn't snap you out of it. I mean, after the first one, you don't. No. as a mother, you don't snap out of it. It is hard to wrap your brain around that. And back to your question about the sequestration, they're not going to be sequestered. And we actually asked Kevin Reddington when he came out of court yesterday, would you want the jury to be sequestered during just deliberations? And he kind of just like, like laughed and said, no, no, we don't do that here.

1:19:11He's, he's such an interesting guy. Like he's, he's obviously very skilled, but he's, he just kind of keeps things simple. I've noticed like to him, I think the idea of sequestration is just too much. And he also feels like the jury's been through so much. The best lawyers do the best, best lawyers. We had, I tried this case one time for a very large fortune 100 corporation in federal court in Iowa. And we were brought into the case. It was really two other parties that were suing each other. And the defendant brought us into the case saying, if I get on the hook for this, I want this client to, to also be on the hook.

1:19:46So the plaintiff's lawyer got up there and made this big, long opening, like this, this defendant did wrong and this is how much money I should get. The defense lawyer got up there and said, it's not true. We did nothing wrong. The plaintiff has it all incorrect. And our lead lawyer got up and said, this one's doing this one. This one's doing. We just want to go home. We just want to go home. And sure enough, the jury let us out of the case. Like sometimes just the simplest messaging of like, what am I doing here? It can resonate. And that's why it's like, to me, the experts probably do to cancel each other out.

1:20:23The women on the jury in particular, most of them will probably have had a baby or know somebody who had a baby, maybe have a daughter who had a baby, and will have their own strong thoughts about maternal instincts for good and for bad for this defendant. And I just think it's probably going to come down to what you said, Like, we're not letting this woman possibly go free. She killed her three kids. Or we're going to send a message to the medical establishment that women's postpartum depression matters. And we hold you responsible, not not Lindsay Clancy. I don't know which way they're going to go.

1:21:00Your thoughts. Yeah, I don't know either. I mean, it's it's it's like it feels like less of a crime story and in some ways like more of a moral dilemma. And I don't I think I think it's going to be a long deliberation. And just back to Kevin Reddington and you kind of saying how good lawyers keep it simple. Even yesterday, we also asked him when he came out, how long do you think closings will be? You think a couple hours? And he like laughed and said, no way. He's like, I'm just going to go 30 minutes. So he definitely has this attitude that he's going to keep it simple. And I think he's like respectful of what the jury has already been through the time that, you know, that they've already given.

1:21:36But yeah, we'll see. I mean, closings are going to be tomorrow. So they'll do jury instructions in the morning and then closings after that. And then we'll just have to see what happens. Maybe we'll get a verdict on Friday. Maybe it may take quite some time. Could be hung, potentially. I doubt it, but it could be since it's not guilt or innocence exactly. So I feel like they'll probably get to a verdict. But famous last words. Brian Anton, always a pleasure, my friend. Great to see you. Thanks for your great coverage. And we'll check out your special on the 2nd. Thanks, Megan. Appreciate you. Okay, we'll be right back.

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1:23:17Big news just hitting the wires. Another defeat for Blake Lively. The final defeat, I believe, in her ill-fated lawsuit against Justin Baldoni. She wanted him to pay as her final I am woman, hear me, roar a moment, $8 million in legal fees for that claim that she got dismissed of his defamation. He tried to counter sue against her for defaming him. It got thrown out under California law. She's entitled to fees as a result of that sequence of events. the judge has just ruled on what she will get. It's$400 ,000. She wanted$8 million so she could run around telling everyone, I got him in the end.

1:24:05He's so dumb. He agreed to my settlement. He was telling everybody he didn't have to pay, but I got him in the end for$8 million on my fee. No, not even half a million,$400 ,000. And you know, I'll tell you something. If she had gone to Justin Baldoni before this whole thing got started and said, you know, I had some problems with the way things went down on the set, didn't appreciate this, that and the other thing. If you pay me$400 ,000, I'll go away. You probably would have done it in a heartbeat. He and his production company just to avoid this whole nightmare. It would have been a great deal for Blake, who would have still had a career and people who liked her, unlike now, where she doesn't have either.

1:24:42The judge finding that the hourly rate charged by the attorneys for Lively and Baldoni, let's see, yeah, was not unreasonable as the case presented substantial financial and reputational risks to both sides. sides, but Judge Lyman also rejected her demand to be reimbursed for the cost to her PR team, saying media relations were not integral to defending the defamation claim brought against Blake Lively. He also ruled the clerk of court is respectfully directed to enter judgment for Lively in the amount of$363 ,000 in change in attorney's fees and$44 ,000 in change in costs. He said, while the attorney's fees, like the rate per hour was not unreasonable, the number of hours that Lively had billed for her lawyers was unreasonable.

1:25:38And he criticized the discrepancies in the expenses that she was trying to claim. So Brian Friedman's team came forward and said, there's some funny business afoot on this math judge. And he seemed to agree. This is great. I mean, because, you know, she was getting ready to do her little PR tour. We spoke with a woman who is behind the creation of that law that said if you're a sexual harassment or abuse victim and you file a lawsuit against your alleged harasser and he countersues you for defamation and then you manage to get the defamation claim thrown out, you can get your fees. She's behind that law.

1:26:14And she came on this program and made a lot of news saying we never had the likes of Blake Lively in mind when we passed this law. It was meant to start to stop a disempowered female with no clout, connections, financial resources or power from getting harassed by a much more powerful industry boss who could ruin her career. The roles were reversed. Blake Lively was the bully. She and her husband with her dragons, Taylor Swift and Ryan Reynolds, they had all the power. Justin Baldoni had none. Very few people even knew who he was prior to the commencement of this whole case. So everything. And so she wanted to then bring that law into existence in all 50 states.

1:26:56And she wanted to spearhead it. And this woman who actually did get it passed in California and a couple of other key states told us that she said to Blake's team, Please no, please have Blake Lively stay out of this. I don't want her help. And I don't think it will be helpful to have her pick this up. But she wanted her Khaleesi moment. She never got it. Guess what? She didn't get it today either. $400 ,000 will probably be handled by insurance. And he won't pay a penny. But even if he had to, that's something I believe he could handle. Unbelievable. What a great, great result for Justin Baldoni.

1:27:32Congratulations to him because he fought hard and he won. He won. Good for him. Thank God, frankly, because I think she made up the whole thing. She was absolutely beastly to him and should be held to account. She should not be cast. We should not be supporting her at the box office. She'll be fine. She's got Ryan Reynolds. He probably has a billion dollars in the bank, so they'll be fine. Okay. Melissa Gilbert, speaking of Hollywood actresses. I've had it with this gal. I mean, she was a good Laura Ingalls in Little House on the Prairie, and that is how I will try to remember Melissa Gilbert, not the outrageous adult she's turned into.

1:28:08Now, her husband, Timothy Busfield, is currently on trial for allegedly sexually abusing two young boys starting at the age of seven for those children while they are on his set of a television show that he used to executive produce and direct. We have talked about this case at length. I will be the first to tell you just as soon as it came out. We reported at that moment. The parents of the two boys are grifters, in my opinion. They are the dad has served time. The mother has passed bad checks. The crimes that they've been accused. He was disbarred. The dad was as well. The crimes and misdeeds they've been accused of go right to whether they are truthful people.

1:28:49And court after court has said they're not. Very relevant. I'm going to let this case play out in New Mexico and we'll report how it turns out when it's over. I don't want to disparage the young boys. Just because you're born to grifters doesn't mean you make up claims like this. We must keep that in mind, but it certainly requires a massive asterisk when reporting these allegations. Okay, but that's not what this is about. This is about the litany of young women who came forward against Timothy Busfield after this case was brought. But in the same way the Me Too movement created streams of women who would come forward saying Me Too, Me Too, Me Too, it did that in this case, too, even though the original complainants, victims alleged, are two little boys.

1:29:33Now they're older. And it was shocking, the things that were alleged against Timothy Busfield. And I'm going to go through it. But Melissa Gilbert has the nerve to come out in the wake of the death of Hayden Panettiere saying we, women of the industry, must bond together to stop the abuse of young child actors and women in our industry. and she talks about not just Hayden, but two other actresses who have died over the past year. Not, not like one from AIDS, one from something else, like not, not from substance abuse or what, like, I don't know exactly why she's lumping in these other two, but she's saying, you know, it's, it's high time for our industry to take care of women and prevent, prevent them from having to suffer being used, abused, and exploited.

1:30:35Okay, how is it that that's happened from the time she was on Little House on the Prairie to now? I've got a clue for you, Melissa. It appears to be thanks to people like your husband, who you are defending. She's defending, she's standing by him, even on the host of women who have come forward. She was asked by George Stephanopoulos in Good Morning America whether she was aware of the litany of women who have come forward against him. Okay, it's not just one or two. By my count, it is, let's see, one, two, three, four, five, six, at least seven who have come forward saying when they were young in some instances, 16, 17.

1:31:20he, her husband, who she's standing by, shoved his hands down their pants, physically or sexually assaulted them in his trailer, at his theater, on set someplace. I mean, this woman, the gall, like, however, do we get to this point where women are being serially abused? Why don't you ask Timothy, Melissa? He could really help us out. Oh, wait, you don't give a shit about anything involving him. it's just something that you don't have any connection to that you would like to condemn that's not how it works you're gonna have to sit this one out mel listen to what she told stephanopoulos after the litany of women came forward this was um i don't have the date in front of me let's say yeah i do april 6th watch the criminal complaint also includes references to two women who had accused him of sexual assault back in 1994 in 2012 he settled one of the cases Were you aware of these cases before the criminal complaint?

1:32:18I got this one. I need to make something really abundantly clear. These allegations have been out in the ether for a very long time. That means you knew about them. When Tim and I got together, the Internet existed. I didn't go into my relationship with him blind. I am neither naive nor am I complicit. I talked to him about it. I asked him questions about it. I heard his side of the story, which no one has ever heard, which is the truth. And when the time is right, and that is not now, Tim will tell the truth of all of these past allegations when he needs to. Okay, let's just go through them. All right, a little reminder on exactly what we're talking about.

1:32:55All right, 1991, then 26-year-old Claudia Christian, this is reported by The Mirror, who is now 60, but at the time was, I don't know, 1991. She was mid-20s, I think, claimed Busfield attacked her while they were rehearsing a scene in his trailer for the 1991 TV movie Strays. They found her police interview, the mirror did. She said Busfield seized her, tossed her against a wall, and began kissing her. Quote, he had an erection and he shoved his tongue in my mouth and I pushed him off and I ran out of the trailer. She told the U.S., she told the Mirror, they reached out to her, that she felt angry with herself when she heard news of Busfield's search warrant for not coming forward sooner.

1:33:41However, she came to the conclusion little would have been done if she had spoken up, probably because of people like Melissa Gilbert, who decide to effectively call you a liar and dismiss your account. There's no, the believe all women crowd is falling down on the job. That's one. Okay. She was 26, Claudia Christian, when it happened, allegedly. 1994, I should say up front. He denies all of these. 1994, an unnamed 17-year-old. This is a person who was an extra on the set of Little Big League in which he starred. She sued in Los Angeles Superior Court claiming Busfield had assaulted her, served her alcohol, groped her, attempted sex with her in his trailer.

1:34:20He denied it and then countersued for extortion. They settled the case privately. He then tried to bring a defamation bid against her lawyers. That got thrown out, leaving him to foot nearly$150 ,000 in costs. No charges were filed. Okay, so there we have, so far we have a 26-year-old who claims that he assaulted her and now a 17-year-old on the set of Little Big League who said he assaulted her. In 1994, Eliza Roberts, who is the sister-in-law to Julia Roberts, she's married to her brother, her brother, Eric Roberts. She claimed that Busfield allegedly sexually harassed and humiliated her. She said she submitted this this testimony in support of this of a 17 year old girl from Minnesota.

1:35:11This is the one I just reported on who accused him of sexually harassing her on the set of Little Big League. So she heard this and she said, I got to come forward and tell the truth about him because, yes, I, too, can attest that he's a sexual pervert. And I'm not going to let the 17 year old twist in the wind in her deposition obtained by the Daily Mail. Roberts testified that Busfield, 68, was a creep who, quote, compulsively chased after women. Again, she's the wife of Julia's brother, Eric, Julia Roberts. She offered her sworn statement along with five other unidentified women in support of the 17-year-old's lawsuit.

1:35:46So I don't even know whether those five overlap with the seven or so I've just listed or I told you I have in front of me. God only knows how many there are, but there were at least five who came forward when the 17-year-old sued to say, Me too, Timothy. And that case is settled out of court, as I told you. She claimed, Eliza did, Busfield tried to cajole her into having sex with him, pompously insisting that he would, quote, be so great in bed for her, while complaining that his then-wife, this is before Melissa, was a lousy fuck, excuse me. Three of the other women who submitted statements, also obtained by the mail, were involved in the production of Little Big League 2.

1:36:24Two of them testified that Busfield hit on them in bars in a persistent, unsettling, and aggressively sexual manner. So that is one, two, three, at least, on the set of Little Big League, who claimed he was harassing them, sexually harassing them, at least one of whom was a teenager. And then others coming forward to say Me Too, including Eliza Roberts. And that's to say nothing of the 26-year-old who kicked this whole thing off saying in his trailer on the TV movie Strays while they were rehearsing a scene. Which leads me to the next allegation from 1999. There was a 16-year-old. Court documents allege he sexually abused a 16-year-old girl while she was auditioning.

1:37:10here we go again on the sets of his movies, his TV movies, his big screen movies, in his trailer, in the midst of a different kind of movie, and now alleging here in his theater. It was called the B Street Theater while she was auditioning a 16-year-old. It was his theater. He was 43. She was 16. She reported he kissed her, put his hands down her pants, and touched her privates. The defendant begged the family, meaning Busfield, not to report it to law enforcement if he received therapy. The father was a therapist himself of the 16-year-old and thought, OK, that's a reasonable thing to do. I will.

1:37:52I'll have mercy on him. That father gave an interview, which we have here on camera in part. I think it's inside edition, Deb, right? Take a listen to the father. This is earlier this year. He's a serial pedophile predator. My daughter was accepted into the B Street Theater internship program, and that was a big deal in those days. You got to perform in front of, you know, an Emmy Award winning actor, Tim Busfield. He says about four months into her internship, Busfield asked his daughter to clean his office. She climbed a little ladder and Tim was below her looking up. She told me she was pulled down.

1:38:33He spun her around. It was reported that he kissed her. It wasn't a kiss. It was a violation. He says Busfield aggressively touched his daughter all over. The dad tells me that his daughter pushed Busfield away and screamed, and that Busfield told her to be quiet or people would hear her. When you confronted Timothy Busfield, what happened? Tim began to cry. He started talking to me about how he was remorseful. Tim begged me not to go to the police. He says Busfield promised to seek therapy. The dad, who's a therapist himself, says he agreed a decision he now regrets. You didn't go to the police.

1:39:14No, I did not. This is why I feel so guilty. This man needs to go down. He is a bad, a bad apple. Back to Melissa Gilbert. I don't know how abuse continues in Hollywood. How? How does this keep happening? Melissa, why don't you chat about it over dinner tonight? You don't have to get your union. She's like, let's get the union involved. Let's create a support group with all former child actors like Drew Barrymore and Sarah Jessica Parker. Just sit down at dinner. You can do it over cocktails tonight. Start at home. It's not going to be hard. Trust me. You can get a whole host of reasons why this keeps happening from the man across the plate from you.

1:39:54Let's keep going. An unnamed 28-year-old via police affidavit reported that he allegedly battered her in an L.A. movie theater, slipping his hands under her clothes, touching her genitals for four minutes. Prosecutors chose not to bring criminal charges in this case. He called a consensual. There was no arrest and no lawsuit, but she was upset enough she went to the cops. Date unknown via KOAT, the ABC local in Albuquerque. A woman said she encountered Busfield while getting books for her kids. She claimed he followed her to her car and began graphically talking to her. It was very bizarre. It was very disturbing.

1:40:32Extremely aggressive. Totally uninvited on my part. I didn't understand why he just suddenly went there. And I tried to say, okay, I'll talk to you later. I have to go. It was relentless. I rolled up my window. She claims Busfield then followed her to another business trying to finish the conversation. I've got one more, and I've got to talk about what Melissa Gilbert is saying about Hayden Penetier now. So I'm going to do what I can in the next minute, and then we'll steal a couple minutes of the next hour and continue this. 2017, his former assistant comes forward, 22 years old. Now he's in his 60s, and he's apparently allegedly still doing this.

1:41:10She said, or he was at least in his late 50s, he kind of touched me on my thigh in the car. I was 22. He was my boss. I felt very uncomfortable. The comments he made toward me were pretty uncomfortable. I remember feeling very early on. I didn't necessarily feel safe alone with him. He would push my shoulders, give me kind of unwanted touch. She said during a trip to Traverse City for a film festival, he hit on her. This is his assistant and wanted her to stay late and drink with him. She declined his advances. how however does this keep happening melissa how these poor aspiring and actual actresses in hollywood who get used and abused by the men in your industry and then disposed of as though they're nothing one final word on it when we come right back you might already own a firearm but what if you could start with less lethal methods to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of pulling the trigger.

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1:43:29simplisafe.com slash sxm outdoor deterrence requires a simply safe active guard outdoor protection plan starting at$49.99 a month visit simply safe.com slash licenses for alarm license information tennessee 2-0-1-2 hey i've got the campaign brief ready built from last quarter's data and the competitive landscape approved oh agents where would we be without you somewhere with a lot more tabs open create your first monday agent in minutes at monday.com Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM. It's called the Megan Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth, unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies.

1:44:08Along with the Megan Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news. Only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

1:44:29Okay, so enter Melissa Gilbert, which she shouldn't have entered at all. She should have just kept her mouth shut and stayed over there dealing with their considerable problems that they already have in his existing criminal case. But no, she's got to weigh in. She's got to offer her two cents because it's very important to Melissa Gilbert to be seen as a champion of women, even though she's not. Here's what she writes. I mean, she's not going to believe this on her sub stack. Enough is enough. How is it possible that no one in the mainstream media has picked up on this? Within one year, Michelle Trachtenberg, Dave Chase, and Hayden Panettiere have died.

1:45:08Three former female actors, female child actors of the same generation are gone, tragically, heartbreakingly, agonizingly too soon. Okay. She adds, I call them female actors because the term actress to me is as misogynistic as calling a female doctor a doctress.

1:45:30You're an idiot. They are gone. And the question I have been turning over and over in my head is, why? Why are these sweet, wildly talented, vibrant, vital young women gone? And why does this all feel so personal to me? Okay. Now, first of all, why are they gone? They're gone because Michelle Trachtenberg died at the age of 39 in February of 25 from complications from diabetes. That's why she's gone. Like, it's very sad, but I don't think there's anything Hollywood can do about it. Then there's DeVay Chase, who died on June 16th at the age of 36. She was, she voiced Lilo in Lilo and Stitch. She died of AIDS, which is awful and should be preventable, but I have no idea how we're pinning that on Hollywood either.

1:46:22There's nothing in her background about her being sexually abused in any way. So I'm, I'm again, I'm open-minded, but you're not getting me there. Hayden Penetier, yes, absolutely. Put into acting at too young an age by Hollywood moguls? No, her mother, by her mother, Melissa. Like, it's not great. Hollywood sucks. It's disgusting, toxic industry, much like news, but like it's her parents who put her into it. The reason I wasn't on Little House on the Prairie is because my mom loved me and kept me at home and sent me to school like a normal child. Like the reason Hayden wound up as she did is because her mother made a very different choice and they wound up loathing each other per Hayden's book.

1:47:08So here she goes on. Okay. Why, why, why are these, you know, sweet young women gone? And why does it all feel so personal to me? It feels personal because I was them. She writes, we are all members of the same tribe, female, former child performers. And when one of us dies, it runs through all of us like an electrical current. It ran through you like an electrical current when a former child actress died of diabetes? Like what? Did they serve her too many sugary drinks on the set? Where are you going with this? It's tragic that a young person, a woman in her 30s ever dies. That has nothing to do with Hollywood, lest you know something you're not revealing in your sub stack.

1:47:53And I'm open-minded to hearing that. Okay. Then this, here we go. She posits the reason. Okay, she says, listen to this. We all know the stories of how the entertainment industry uses, abuses, exploits, and then throws away its youngest. But for some reason, this trend is getting worse. Yes, whatever could the reason be? Could it be possibly like one of the things serial perverts in Hollywood who actually use and abuse them on the set in their trailer on the audition stage and then call them liars publicly when they actually in some of these cases, you know, have gone to the police, have eyewitnesses, have five other women who want to come forward to say the same thing happened to me?

1:48:38Could that be it? No. What does Melissa think? My thinking is that it's tied to the invention of mobile phones. it's the mobile phone that's to blame i don't i don't think that causes aids or diabetes i i you know i i'm not a techie i don't read wired i find them very woke and annoying but um maybe again maybe she's she knows something i don't know about the mo about the mobile phone causing the use of abuse and exploitation in Hollywood. She goes on about how we used to have privacy, but now we go to restaurants, clubs, and paparazzis everywhere. Everyone is a paparazzo. There's no privacy. The media uses it for clickbait and they profit.

1:49:26The voracious tabloid happy public eats it up with a spoon so they can feel better about their own lives. Now it's your fault. You're a greedy, needy public looking at pictures you shouldn't. You put down that National Enquirer, put down that Star magazine. Shame on you. You're to blame. That girl got diabetes and you you are the problem. I like it. This is crazy stuff. She's mad because her husband's on trial for being an alleged pedophile. That's what she's mad about. I get it. That's probably extremely upsetting. The problem is not the cell phones. It's not. They're not good. Hey, the cell phone's been a terrible influence on mental health for everyone.

1:50:04I concede that point, but when we're trying to get granular and diagnose what happened to the young Hollywood actresses, I'm going to guess that's about number 17 on the list, if it's there at all. She says, the real haunting question, the question haunting me is, how do we fix our end? How do we fix or end this before someone else dies? Then she asks, where is our union in all of this? What is the SAG union going to do about diabetes? And frankly, what could it have done about Hayden Pentier, whose problems were drug addiction, alcoholism, domestic violence, a mother who didn't love her. but you know other than a couple of incidents like offset that she alleged like that unknown d-list actress allegedly saying get into bed with that guy on some ship but that's not like we're not talking about the hollywood director and the casting couch and harvey here all of which is a huge problem i conceded i'm not i'm not trying to say otherwise but which like in the cases that she's raising that have really gotten her so outraged this stuff actually wasn't to blame So like I'm really not following her, except I am because I know this is all just to cover for her to try to look like she's an avenger of victims when in fact she's married to somebody who appears to be a serial victimizer.

1:51:28Again, he's denied the claims. Not talking about the trial right now, even that criminal trial. Again, talking about these women, the litany of women who she completely dismisses to George Stephanopoulos. Completely. Then she goes on to say the following. Oh, she wants to get everybody together. Drew Barrymore, Ellen Dakota Fanning, Jodie Foster, Brooke Shields, Sarah Jessica Parker, Reese Witherspoon. I don't know. A bunch of others I've never heard of. And she wants it. No one's going to do this for us. Maybe one solution is for us. And I love how she wants to include herself like in the company of Drew Barrymore, Sarah Jessica Parker, Jodie Foster.

1:52:02She can't lick their boots. Those other women have gone on to have thriving, great adult careers as well. You're not on that list, sweetheart. They're not going to take your call. I have news for you. Um, then she says, we should all get together and we should share ideas and ways we might be able to lobby to support these young women. Okay. I I'm going to help you if they actually do talk to you. I got a suggestion for the kickoff meeting. How about when they come forward and say that they have been physically abused on an audition in somebody's trailer or on a stage, we listen to them and at least engage in a good faith attempt to believe them.

1:52:44Okay. That's your, your side's rules. Believe all women. I don't say that. I say yes, good faith attempt to listen and probe. That's, that's what they're entitled to. And I would give, um, you you're saying none of them is true because my husband said they're not true. Um, okay. He lost his defamation case against the lawyers who brought that one girl's claim. He had to pay their attorney's fees because his claim was deemed so frivolous. Um, your own assistant who knows you too well alleges he's continuing the pattern up until recent years. This is like in Tim's late 50s. He was allegedly doing that to the assistant.

1:53:21And I'm thinking, like, I haven't seen Eliza Roberts, sister-in-law of Julia, running all over America just randomly accusing men. But she did seem pretty animated about your husband as she and five witnesses came forward to support the 17-year-old claiming she'd been abused on the set of Little Big League and multiple others did too. So I just, I'm thinking this would be square one for stopping the abuse and the patterns, Melissa, as you're going to share ideas and ways we might be able to support these young women. Maybe we sit down, she goes on, with the heads of the studios and the networks and have real conversations about mitigating exploitation.

1:54:01However, could we, Again, this is so. All right. So why do I even care about what Melissa Gilbert is saying? Because you have to see the glowing coverage that this generated for her. Like people, completely lazy ass reporters not doing their homework. USA Today. Melissa Gilbert calls for real change after Hayden Penetier death. People Magazine. Melissa Gilbert advocates for better protection of child stars in the wake of Hayden Penetier's death. Deadline. Melissa Gilbert calls on unions to protect child actors after Hayden Penentier's death. Something's got to be done. Hollywood Reporter, same.

1:54:37TMZ, they didn't even mention the allegations against Busfield. At least those other publications at least mentioned that he's on trial right now for alleged child molestation. TMZ didn't even mention that. It seems like you should mention. The only one who got it right, the only one, was the Daily Mail. This is their headline. Little House on the Prairie's Melissa Gilbert calls on Hollywood to protect child stars after Hayden Penetier's death while her own husband is accused of onset molestation. They put it right in the headline, and that is the correct thing to do. So I do think there's a massive problem in Hollywood with the exploitation of children, with the serial sexual abuse of young women and more mature women as well in many cases.

1:55:24I don't think Melissa Gilbert is the answer to that problem. I think her hands are too unclean. She's been too knee-jerk defensive of what I think is her pervert husband. And I think most of us just want to see Melissa Gilbert skulk away and stop pretending that she hasn't been hashtag part of the problem. Because she has. We saw it in that Stephanopoulos exchange. That will conclude my thoughts on half pint. That's how I'll remember her. I enjoyed those years. and we'll see you again tomorrow when we are joined by the one, the only Dr. Leonard Sachs. He's back on with his new book. Love this guy.

1:56:02This is the child expert and parenting expert. And every time we have him on, my email explodes with gratitude from moms and dads who just find his wisdom plentiful and spot on. Okay, look forward to that and I will see and talk to you all tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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