Fraud Crockett's Defeat, Michelle Obama's New Racial Complaints, and Trump's Iran "War" Question, with Glenn Greenwald | Ep. 1265

23:23I think we all do that, right? We speak differently with our childhood friends or our family and differently in a public context. That would be one thing. But what she's doing is almost like a minstrel show. That's not how she speaks. And as you said, when she ran for office, that wasn't how she spoke. She was she. Yes, she was a public defender, but she was also a corporate lawyer. This is what I'm saying. Like she is a very I think a lot of people look at black Democrats, especially like black women. And if they're particularly boisterous, even more so like a Maxine Waters or whatever. And they say, oh, they must be like super left wing.

23:55The reality is often they're not even mostly they're like funded by APAC. They're funded by Wall Street. Maxine Waters was the chair of the finance services, financial service committee for years. And all the bankers loved her. These are, you know, people who go and make themselves, as Marjorie Hill Green said about AOC, establishment tools. And that's what makes it extra offensive that Jasmine Crockett pretends to be this. Because if it'll like, you know, Jesse Jackson would speak like that. But Jesse Jackson grew up like that. That was his politics. That was authentic.

24:27Glenn Greenwald:Yeah, exactly. And no one ever commented on it when it was obviously authentic. It's only when it's an obvious affect that you make it a thing that it's fair game. Yeah, it becomes patronizing. You know, like, who is this for? I mean, it's probably mostly for white liberals, to be honest. I think that's really her big fan base. That's why Rachel's so enamored. By the way, Megan, just one thing. Like, I was amazed. Like, I'm always amazed by this. I don't know if you are. But, like, when you said, like, go listen to these MS Now liberals saying how great both Jackson Crockett and James Tallarico are.

24:58And the first voice is Nicole Wallace. I still like Nicole Wallace 20 years ago was George Bush and Dick Cheney's communications director defending the Iraq war, defending every one of those conservative policies. And she supposedly just got alienated from Republicans because she didn't like Trump. But she had a complete transformation and turned into an overnight liberal for her her career. Talking about frauds. But in any event. Yeah. I mean, the idea that like these two are the future of the Democratic Party. that and notice it's all surface stuff it's all surface it has nothing to do with the agenda

25:34Glenn Greenwald:let's check in on another james tallarico sot to see if um he's the future of the democrat party and is going to fly as a statewide choice in texas here he is in november 2022 at his home church before we go further i want to acknowledge that our trans community needs abortion care too Defending trans Texans is something we have to do every day at the state capitol. And you better believe I'll be giving sermons on that too. So when I use the word woman, it should not be understood as an exhaustive term, but rather as a lens through which to understand, examine, and interrogate patriarchy. Similar to how we specify anti-black racism when talking about police violence, Sometimes it's helpful to locate a particular moment within a particular movement.

26:23OK, those clips are going to be on loop until we get to the general election, whether it's

26:29Glenn Greenwald:Tallarico versus Paxton or Tallarico versus Cornyn. And frankly, I think it's going to be Paxton. I just I feel like Texans have had enough of the neocon Cornyn, like they're ready for something new. Paxton's got his own baggage, but he seems pretty beloved and he's Trumpian, which is, you know, all the rage, very in for obvious reasons. So we'll see. But can you imagine this guy versus Ken Paxton in a race? He's going to get eaten alive. You know, well, just for all, like it is interesting because Christianity can have kind of a left-wing tinge, like in Latin America, for example, it's very associated with that.

27:05But not by calling God non-binary and saying the Bible says that trans people needs abortions. It's usually like a left-wing populist economic populism like you know jesus taught us or immigration or immigration exactly you can make exactly church absolutely absolutely and yeah i mean the the pope has you know against the death penalty um you know always against wars condemning aggression so you can make a you can definitely construct a very christian like genuinely christian argument for like left-wing or liberal economic populism and foreign policy non-interventionism for sure. But that stuff, I don't know, maybe it was 2021.

27:46I don't know if he's from an extremely liberal district. It was like right in the wake of the Black Lives Matter and all the like obligatory speech where they all started talking that way. It just aged so poorly. And I don't think that, by the way, that most voters vote on trans stuff. But if there's a perception that somebody so far afield, like sounding is like, he's not just saying like, hey, let's be kind and, you know, decent and tolerant to our trans neighbors. He's saying the Bible teaches that trans people have to get abortions too. Like it just, that stuff sounds so extremist that even though that isn't their main issue or close to it, it just, it makes them seem again, like very distant from their everyday lives and what they think about and how they speak.

28:28Glenn Greenwald:Yes. Especially when he's saying God is non-binary, like all of it is going to make wonderful campaign ads. I know the Democrats today, some of them are heaving a sigh of relief that he prevailed over Crockett, who many did not believe had a chance at statewide office in Texas. And they think this guy is sort of the kinder, gentler, more sellable candidate. Maybe he is versus Crockett. But I'm not entirely sure of that, to be honest, because he's pretty radical in his policies as we've been playing in the first 26 minutes here. And it's just going to gets shoved down his throat, no matter who the Republican candidate is.

29:07Glenn Greenwald:It's just another example, as far as I'm concerned, of Democrats not understanding the constituency. Before we leave Jasmine Crockett, because we may be leaving her forever, depending on, you know, what happens with her. Unless we cover, let's do a podcast together about Bravo shows, in which case we might have the opportunity to cover her. Well, whenever you're on, we do that toward the end. And today we do have more Michelle Obama for you, Glenn Greenwald. But let's not leave before Jasmine before showing Benny's comparison of Jasmine Crockett's district in South Dallas with her hometown. Here's what your average street looks like in South Dallas, where Jasmine Crockett represents.

29:45Best part about Jasmine Crockett's district is free public bathrooms. And here's what your average street looks like in St. Louis, in the suburbs where Jasmine Crockett's from. Here's an elementary school in the heart of Jasmine Crockett's district. Let's go ahead and check on the environment in which these kids are learning. You have burned down buildings in every direction. Nothing's open. FDJT has been tagged on this building. Here's the walkway to school in Crockett's district. This is what the children have to walk through every single day. I don't know how many booze bottles there are, how many beer cans, and how much junk.

30:26And here's what a school looks like in St. Louis. And here's what stores and shopping centers look like in South Dallas.

30:39And here's what stores and shopping centers look like in St. Louis. Get the point?

30:44Glenn Greenwald:Yeah, he did such a great job with that whole thing that she parachuted in. She said, oh, I'm one of you. She got elected. She started talking street like she was from the Bronx or whatever the equivalent is in Texas. this. And it was all lies. I think even though you're right, she attracts attention for doing some of this stuff. There's a shelf life for people like this, you know, because to your point as well, it's one thing if it's authentic and you're Trump and you have the Brooklyn accent because it's, you know, you came by, honestly, you were born in Queens, the Queens accent, I guess there is a slight difference.

31:19Glenn Greenwald:My dad's from Brooklyn, her was. In any event, it's one thing if it's authentic and it's another if it's an affectation and it really doesn't take much to see the difference. Yeah. I mean, I think basically the two things that most that are most destructive for a political candidate are number one feeling seeming like they're tied to the establishment. I do think that was Kamala Harris's biggest problem. I think I've said before on your show, my impression of her is always that she had just walked out of like a board of directors meeting of Aetna where they were doing like actuary tables and she was like the general counsel.

31:50I love it every time. Yeah. I mean, that is what she just gives me so much. And I think that's what people got from her just and she tried a little bit of that, like code switching in the way she spoke to. And it was even less convincing. Oh, yeah. But any kind of a reeking of establishment. Exactly. Exactly. And she used to have an Indian accent when she first ran in California as well. That completely disappeared. But yeah. So that's one thing. And that's what Pete that's Buttigieg's problem. You know, he can wear as many like camouflage hats as he wants. He's never going to escape what he really is.

32:20And as you said at the beginning, it's very a feat. It's not because he's gay or anything else. He's just like very – he wanted to go and just like work with numbers in an office and just like be a very kind of rule-abiding, conformant. This is a very weak behavior. And then the other problem is when people think that you're fake, when people think that you are inauthentic, when you're trying to con them or snow them. And good politicians can con people. Like Bill Clinton was very good at that. Obama was good at that. Trump has that too. But at the core, you need to be authentic because, as I said before, especially more so now where there's so much exposure there, you know, they don't just go on like Sunday shows or a presidential debate twice a year.

32:58There's constant exposure. If you're fake, people are going to sniff it out.

33:03Glenn Greenwald:Well, it's funny how all these Democrats are trying to figure out how to make themselves have mass appeal are growing facial hair from Ezra Klein to Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut to now Pete Buttigieg. Like, I'm going to start looking like Paul Bunyan, and that will make me sellable to the larger electorate. So the Atlantic bought it hook, line and sinker and sitting with Buttigieg. And they write that the title of the piece, as I mentioned, is Pete Buttigieg in the wilderness. I quoted the line. He has a beard, a splitting mall and a house in Michigan. Is that enough to convince America that he's a man of the people?

33:39Glenn Greenwald:This is the big setup piece for his presidential campaign. This is like, this is how he's kicking it off. Make no mistake about it. 2028 is right around the corner. We're already at 26. It's on. And this is Pete Buttigieg getting it off with the Atlantic, getting it off to a start. Lead line of the article in May 2001 at Harvard's Institute of Politics. A 19-year-old freshman named Peter Buttigieg asked David Gergen, a Harvard professor and horse whisperer to five presidents, a question that he might have reserved for himself a couple of decades later. Peter, who had not yet transformed into Pete, let alone Mayor Pete, said he loved the West Wing, but could feel the idealism reflected in the show slipping away from politics in real life.

34:23Glenn Greenwald:Quote, the presidency has now devolved into what's called the MBA White House or the corporate model, he said, with the plaintive tone of a child asking about the spirit of Christmas. Quote, is that magic really gone forever? Worse than being underused, they go on to talk about him, is being used in a campaign destined for failure. And they talk about Kamala Harris and how she considered Pete Buttigieg, but then overruled him and talked about how he felt about this. They say, okay, we were already asking a lot of America she wrote in her memoir and a lack of grace. Buttigieg says never thanked her for that slight being passed over has left him the most prominent Biden stalwart to remain viable as a candidate for the Democratic nomination in 2028.

35:15Glenn Greenwald:Okay, so they're setting it all up like he see how she left him the most prominent Biden stalwart. So he's still got the establishment Dems. He's viable as a candidate for the Democratic nomination. And here he was wistfully talking about the West Wing. Oh, and he went to Harvard. Did we mention he was at Harvard's Institute of politics and idealistic. And he has a beard and a splitting wall. So you see it all. It's not even subtle, Glenn. No, this is exactly what I mean, Megan. So I don't know what you were like at 19. I think I have some ideas. I know what I was like at 19. I was very, very bad, blonde, bleached hair.

35:49Glenn Greenwald:Speaking of bleached blonde hair out of a box because I was poor and that's how you had to do it. Right. And like, I don't know. I just I wasn't at Harvard, like tugging on the coattails of David Gergen, like trying to form some men. I don't know for people who don't know, David Gergen is like the ultimate Washington insider was like the, the whisper to multiple presidents and both parties, like the Supreme Washington establishment centrist or moderate or whatever. And then he went, we was on CNN, like one of the wise men of Washington. And that is who people who judge is. It was who he was since he was very young.

36:22Like this is the, this is the, the core of somebody that cannot change. You can change how they dress. You can change whether they have facial hair. You can change what kind of hat they wear. But like who you are is who you are. And you can evolve and grow and all that. But you cannot escape that core personality that is clearly still Pete Buttigieg. And that is who he is. Harvard and David Gergen and McKinsey. And also like this electoral success, you know, you know how many votes he got when he won to be mayor of South Bend? The maximum like in both times is like 8 ,000 people, 8 ,000 votes.

36:56Oh, wow. And he, the whole thing is like built on a fake artifice, like a total house of cards.

37:04Glenn Greenwald:Well, here's, so the Atlantic loves it. I mean, like I said, hook, line and sinker. He sounds like the younger member of the old democratic party, the one that flourished before Trump, brainy, credentialed and elite, liberal, but not progressive and personable, but this might be key, frightfully boring. Buttigieg's technocracy made flesh. Who could be safer than a politician who has had his card punched at all the great meritocratic institutions and who has followed the modern cursus honorum, some sort of Latin honorum, from local office to national? And who could be less Trumpian? He's unashamed of technical competence, even when it makes him sound dweebish.

37:50Glenn Greenwald:Without embarrassment, he bragged to me during his days as a management consultant. He had worked with data sets, quote, too big for Excel to handle. Ha ha ha. And then they go on to say the following. Hold on, buckle up. Buttigieg's critics seem to fault him for the vaguest reasons, many of which come down to, he's too perfect, Glenn, I'm quoting for the piece. He's too perfect. That's the problem with Pete Buttigieg. Now he gets to it. He's not authentic. He's not a man of the people. It's an odd line of attack. Is it possible to be too perfect? Is perfection a flaw? This is unbelievable. I'm sure J.D.

38:31Glenn Greenwald:Vance is getting exactly this treatment in The Atlantic. Social psychology has documented something known is the pretfall effect, the distrust of people deemed too perfect. It turns out that people like smart charismatic types, but they really like smart charismatic types who screw up now and then and do not just ace every test and land every joke. It's the interview question. What are some of your flaws? I work too hard. I'm a perfectionist. And this writer, hook, line, and sinker, As I said, Graham Wood, who teaches at Yale and is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, was like, I'm in love.

39:16No, but you know what's so funny, Megan, is when I was just describing why Pete Buttigieg is such a pathetically weak candidate, why he'll never have this compelling appeal, I actually sounded almost identical to the Atlantic article, at least until I got to the part about how he's too perfect. Like that he is like from a different political era, like from the Obama era where people wanted technocrats and like very kind of cold, you know, step people who came out of establishment institutions. The authority and credibility of all those institutions are in collapse. And the more you have to do with them, the more you smell like them, the more you seem like you're a byproduct of them, the weaker you are.

39:54So, yeah, maybe he would have been a good like candidate in like the Democratic Party of Barack Obama in 2012 or 2008. Trump destroyed all of that, that that political era, that whole political appeal. And you see like smarter politicians like Gavin Newsom who realize that and are also trying to show that they're just kind of like regular guys who speak in regular speak. Pete Buttigieg doesn't have it in him. And that the Atlantic is like ground zero for political establishment. And so, of course, they still think those are appealing traits when in reality, they're fatal.

40:30Glenn Greenwald:Yes. So, and by the way, Newsom is another person lying about his origin story. And one other excerpt from this piece, he never spoke more slowly or sounded more rehearsed than when I asked him about the issue he will be most harshly critiqued on if he runs. his silence during Biden's cognitive decline. Quote, we all saw what we saw, that he was old, he said. I never saw a decision that was different or worse because he was old. End quote. And as long as the decision making was sound, Buttigieg had no duty to pull a senility alarm. Well, this will be a problem for Pete Buttigieg among other Democrats running.

41:13Glenn Greenwald:Why didn't they say anything about Biden's cognitive decline. He was part of the administration, said nothing. Gavin Newsom wasn't part of the administration, but he's also going to get questioned about it because he was such a huge Gavin Newsom. Sorry. Well, yeah, Gavin Newsom backer, but Joe Biden backer. The Emerson poll that was most recent on Democratic presidential possibilities hit February 26th, says the following. Newsom leads the pack at 20%. Buttigieg is second at 16. Harris is third at 13. AOC is fourth at nine. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro has 7%. Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear at 5%.

41:54Glenn Greenwald:24 % are undecided. So right now, if you were to go by today, it's Newsom versus Buttigieg for this contest. And they are very different. I mean, I'm not going to lie. Every woman I talk to when you sit, you know, I'm constantly like Gavin Newsom and every woman, even the Republican ones are like, he is hot. It doesn't hurt in politics to be very good looking. Pete Buttigieg is not. You don't look at him and think hot, but he's trying to get like cooler with the beard and the plaid, right? The equivalent of the camo hat. We'll see whether that works on anybody. I mean, no woman is fantasizing, look at Pete Buttigieg, because we know he's gay.

42:41Glenn Greenwald:So like, I guess you can't really compete in that lane exactly. That's not the only reason. Even if he were totally straight, you still wouldn't be. No, my God, who would want that on top of them? I mean, gay or straight or whatever, male or female, it's a no. Okay. Okay. But speaking of Gavin Newsom, he sat down with Mark Halperin and, you know, he is now in that famous clip where he's talking to the mixed audience, but a lot of black people in it saying, I'm like you, I can't read. I got a 960 on the SAT. I mean, just absolutely devastating. But he's saying is I'm like you, dumb. That's how I relate to you black people.

43:17Glenn Greenwald:I too am dumb. Can't read. Ridiculous, but okay. So he sat down with Mark Halpern who asked him, are you actually dyslexic? Can you read? And here's how that went, SOT 12. Can you read? Can you read a book? I can read. I just have to underline it. I can't read spatially. That's why I can't read a speech, Mark, because spatially I'll lose the line. So I'll literally, and I mean, I wish I had a book here. If you ever lend me a book, that's why I don't go to the library because I can never return the book. I have to underline. And then what I'll do is I'll take what's underlined and then I'll put it out.

43:51And this is literally an actual example. I'll just put in pieces of paper, everything underlined. And then I'll do that for hours and hours and hours. And then eventually I'll put it on a little yellow card, which will have just quick notes. And then it's in my head. But that's the process. That's why everything online I have to print out. So I take what's online, print out your blog or something, and then underline it and then put it in here. So it's a process. So you can't read on a phone or an iPad? I can. I just get, I start daydreaming. I start drifting off. And so pen is the key.

44:27Glenn Greenwald:I might also be dyslexic. Look at me. I have to underline all my things too. I don't know. I actually don't doubt him that he's got some sort of a learning disability because Yashar Ali, who worked in his office, has said online this has long been known about him. It's fine, okay? But what you actually said to the audience was, I'm like you. I can't read. I got a 960 on the SAT. So this dyslexic or not, he's not saved by this. This is all a crutch to get out of what was an offensive comment in the way it was delivered to this particular audience, in my view. Your thoughts? Well, also, he's been in public life for 20 years.

45:08and why now? Why was this suddenly thrust forward as something we have to hear about Gavin Newsom from Gavin Newsom? It just seems very exploitative. And then when you listen to him describe what the issue is to Mark Halperin, I kind of believe it too, mostly because who cares? Like, yeah, I'm sure it's not, it's just something, I don't know, like his attention wanders. Does your attention wander sometimes if you're reading a book? Mine does. Yeah, right, right, right. You know, I think it's very much like, oh, you know what? You know what will make me seem relatable is if I have, if I talk about my disability.

45:48And, you know, he's posted.

45:50Glenn Greenwald:No, and he's digging himself out of the hole that he created. Right, but why did he create that hole? In front of that largely black audience. Right, but why did he create that hole? Because he was trying to be relatable. Like, yes, I know I, when I was, you know, 18 or 20, I was best friends with this billionaire family that financed my businesses and financed my political career. but don't worry i'm like you because i can't read and got poor scores on my sat i mean the way it was said was very offensive but also the impulse was and again it's like it's like monkey behavior they think they're imitating trump although trump would never talk about his disabilities but it's like a way of trying to be open and vulnerable kind of like i don't know the oprah era or something it just seems very off to me you know like he's been in public life for more than two decades and And now suddenly we have to hear about his dyslexia.

46:39And like, who cares? I know.

46:41Glenn Greenwald:And it's part of the same thing that you're right. That has them out there. Like, I, you know, single mom, mac and cheese. Meanwhile, his dad was a judge and he was getting boatloads of dough from the Getty family. It was featured in a magazine article with the Getty kids. Gavin front and center with the caption, children of the rich. Like, okay. Again, back to the Benny Johnson thing. Did you get featured in a magazine, Glenn, growing up as a child of the rich? Me neither. Megan, did you have best friends who were billionaires, the Gettys? Were you like best friends with like the Morgans and the Forbes?

47:20We didn't even know any doctors or lawyers.

47:22Glenn Greenwald:Yeah, I know. Never mind a judge. Like that was a huge thing like to find that out. I mean, when I went to law school at Albany Law School, a fine pedestrian law school. It's great if you want to go to practice law in New York. But beyond that, it's not well known. I thought I had finally made it, Glenn. I was like, now people are going to have to take me seriously because I'm going to be a lawyer. I was so impressed with like the possibility of getting a law degree. We didn't know anybody who had an advanced degree like that. Like, do I run around reminding my audience of my humble beginnings every day?

48:00Glenn Greenwald:No, I don't. this is like a uniquely weird politician thing. He'd be better off just pulling a Trump. Like, yeah, I was so lucky. The Gettys took such good care of me, you know, like, and I was born to like a really smart dad who was a judge and a mom who was loving and worked hard. Just fucking own your actual history. That's what authentic looks and sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when they would bring up Trump's bankruptcies and he'd be like, yeah, bankruptcy is a great tool in the law. Maybe it shouldn't be there. Maybe it should be. But it is there. And I I'm a businessman. I'm going to use all the tools.

48:34And exactly, you know, when he was when he was asked about things like his father's wealth and the opportunities, you know, he didn't say, no, I grew up very, you know, exactly what you said. Like, and it does give the impression that Trump always is willing to tell the truth. Like, he doesn't have this shield. Now, Trump lies a lot, like every president and every political leader. I don't mean that. I mean that when he talks about himself and just kind of like being conversant, he like almost lacks that filter that politicians have where you calculate what you're going to say to like calibrate it for the best effect on the audience.

49:09Many, many times that Trump speaks, he just simply lacks it. or he doesn't care enough. And that is a political strain.

49:15Glenn Greenwald:It was the moment with Hillary Clinton, right? At the one debate, like you didn't pay your taxes. You paid zero taxes. And he was like, that makes me smart. Exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly. He was like, yeah. Here's another fact for you. Pete Buttigieg lives in Traverse City, which has become the Hamptons of Michigan. I mean, like it is a joke that he lives in the wilderness of Michigan, according to our Michigan sources. So that too is not true. And as for Gavin Newsom, Gordon and Ann Getty paid about$233 ,000 toward his first wedding reception. His 30th birthday party given by the Gettys was Great Gatsby themed down to the Flappers and Charlestons.

50:00Glenn Greenwald:And per the San Francisco Chronicle in 2003, in 10 of Gavin Newsom's first 11 businesses, the primary money came from, you guessed it, the Getty family. Once again, Glenn, did you have some billionaire family like the Astors or the Rockefellers or the Vanderbilts or the Geddes paying for anything in your life? No, no one did other than this guy who's trying to convince us he's a man of the people. You know, when you when you that is amazing. Like he was basically like an honorary Geddes. getty i don't like they really took a gigantic interest in like every aspect of his funding his wedding and throwing birthday parties for him and investing in 10 of his i mean that connection he didn't just know the gettys it was an extremely deep and intricate relationship who knows why maybe they saw that he was a striver who takes 233 000 from someone who's not their family for their wedding 30 years ago so that was like you know seven or almost a million dollars now or a hundred thousand or whatever.

51:02Glenn Greenwald:That's exactly right. And that was to our pal, Kimberly Gifoil. All right, quick break. We're right back with Glenn. Don't go away. Feeling sluggish, bloated, not quite like yourself, life constantly bombards us with silent threats, processed foods, artificial light, nonstop stress, all of which can disrupt gut health, drain energy and weaken immune health. When that happens, it's not that your body is broken. It's that it might be missing the right inputs. That's why I want to tell you about Armra Cholestrum. It's packed with more than 400 bioactive nutrients that they say can work at a foundational level to fortify gut health, support immune health, fuel recovery, and promote whole body vitality.

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52:56Glenn Greenwald:Welcome back to the Megyn Kelly show. Glenn Greenwald is back with me. He is back on Substack as well. Go to greenwald.substack.com to find all of his work. You will be smarter for having done it. All right, before we move on to Iran, and there's plenty to discuss, there was a presser out of the Pentagon this morning. I have got to run this Michelle Obama soundbite by you, Glenn. It's Michelle Obama day for you. She sat down with Conan O 'Brien, And you're going to be shocked, shocked to learn she feels that there's a double standard when it comes to first families, depending on skin color. Watch.

53:34I could tell when you and I took a trip once to visit a big, giant military base in the Middle East, you and your team were being so careful that everything is done by the book. You know, there's no perks. There's no. I was really impressed with that. And it occurred to me then, oh, I see. Everyone feels we need to be so, so, so far beyond.

54:02Glenn Greenwald:It wasn't even a feeling. It was the truth. It's the truth. You know, I mean, there's absolutely no way that the behavior in this current administration would have been accepted by the first black family in the White House. You don't get here without being damn near perfect. Yeah. We don't get to fail two, three, five, seven times. We don't get to file bankruptcy over and over again and still be considered a successful business person. We don't get to not be at the top of the class. Every I has to be dotted. Every T has to be crossed. Okay. Okay, so she behaved on her best at a military base because she's black and she couldn't fall below the standard.

54:50Glenn Greenwald:That's why she had to behave so well while visiting troops serving in the military on their territory. It's because she's black. That's why she had to act so well, Glenn. I mean, that was a hard clip to get through, Megan. So you know anything for you, I will do it. But that was not easy because it wasn't just her. Like the whole thing was set up by Conan being the good white progressive ally. Basically saying he was, it was his thesis. He was like, so first of all, it was very funny. Cause he was basically saying what the Atlantic said about Pete Buttigieg. Like you were, you were like perfect to a fault.

55:25You know, everything about it is so perfect. And he's like, and then I realized like, that's because you're black. And she's like, absolutely. And this, you know, this grievance is from her is, I don't understand why. Is there nobody near her who says, you know, Michelle, you're one of the richest and most famous women in the world. You spend your time traveling around the world on like Richard Branson's yacht and, you know, with Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos in the most luxurious places. You have a gigantic estate in Martha's Vineyard in a bigger mansion or a big, huge mansion, multimillion dollar mansion in Washington.

56:00You were the first lady. Your husband was the president of the United States. Every door is open for you. Maybe like just tune down a little bit on the constant grievance because you're not really like a major figure of sympathy. But she can't. She can't. Americans twice voted for them. They were in the White House for eight years. Before that, he was elected senator out of nowhere by the state of Illinois. And you would think that, you know, she spent the first half of her life like under Jim Crow or in chains or something. Yes. The way she speaks. And it's really resentment producing.

56:37Glenn Greenwald:She's like, oh, you know, we have to get perfect grades in order to be acceptable. It's the truth is exactly the opposite. And we all know that affirmative action is there to help black Americans like Michelle Obama, who didn't get perfect grades wind up at Princeton. That's what happened in her case, and she knows it. She did not have to get perfect grades. In fact, this system bent over backward to help her get into our most elite institutions, despite the fact that she failed to do that. Trump and his bankruptcies happened because he spent his life for decades as a businessman, taking massive risks in real estate, one of the most volatile industries we have.

57:23Glenn Greenwald:And he played the system just like all people in that business do. Something she would know nothing about because she'd done nothing prior to becoming first lady. She spent a few years at a white shoe law firm in Chicago. Okay, look, I've done that. I've done that literally the exact same thing. It's fine. It's a respectable way to spend your living, your life. But you you're not a woman of the world coming out of that. You haven't taken big risks like President Trump did when he was a private citizen. So she would know nothing about filing for bankruptcy as a corporate tool to take care of debt and so on.

57:58Glenn Greenwald:She has no idea what she's talking about. Everything for her reduces to a racial grievance. Yeah, I mean, it's just it's so tiresome. And, you know, I heard Obama himself talking the other day about his library. and he was talking about how there's going to be a whole wing of the library for what people really want to see, which were Michelle's dresses. She spent, you know, eight years. It wasn't like she innovated the position of first lady and took on, you know, she did some stuff on like children eating well, which is fine. It's a good cause, like not to be obese and to exercise, but it wasn't like she was some driving force or intellectual pioneer in that position.

58:31She really was most known for her, her love of fashion, you know, and her relationship with the world of fashion. That's really what she most became known for. And also, the Obama presidency was far, far, far from perfect. They bailed out the banks. They let huge millions and millions of people go underwater, get expelled from their home because of their inability to pay mortgage. They had a gigantic fund. All those drone attacks and wars overseas, they destroyed Libya and he got reelected. So where is this framework that if you're black, you have to be perfect in order to succeed when her own husband is a living, breathing testament of the falsity of that?

59:10Glenn Greenwald:The other piece of it is, Glenn, like you would think as first lady all these years later, if somebody says to you, you know, I remember I was at a military base with you. And so both of these two, what Conan O 'Brien, I was waiting for him to say was maybe you were so great with the troops, the way you guys interacted. It seems so authentic to me, like how much you loved them. Or could you believe how badass those guys were? You know, they were huge and they were badass MFers. Or for her, even not having it teed up that way, to go there. Like that's the normal instinct by most patriots, to make it about the guys and the gals who you saw at the military base.

59:47Glenn Greenwald:But both of them were determined to make it about her and not just her, but about racial grievance again with some slips and some digs at Trump. It's just she's so small minded. This is the only lens through which she sees her experience as first lady. There's no gratitude, not even for the troops, not a word about how tough they were or amazing they were or how selfless they were in their sacrifice. just her sacrifice in having to be first lady for eight years and deal with the abject racism of the country. I I've had it with this bitch. I'm sorry, but like, I am done listening to her fucking line with the help of, as you point out, little white liberals who are begging for her to pat them on the head.

1:00:33It's an, I don't know about you, Megan, but I kind of do actually. And I can say for myself, like whatever I have in this world, I'm constantly grateful for it. Like I'm aware of how blessed I am. Like I know that I have things that other people don't. And the idea that I would go around like not just complaining to myself or in my private realm, but like demanding that the public listen to me as I complain about the unfairness of my life. You know, it's like, if you're poor, if you are downtrodden, you've had a lot of tragedy in your life. I get it. Like, I understand why people like that are angry.

1:01:10You can't have a more blessed life than the one that she's had. And yet she, as you say, she's, she's, there's no gratitude. There's no humility yet. She can't even pretend to like, remember that visit to the base being about her being impressed with overseas troops and the sacrifices they make and the courage to make was like politics one-on-one. No, it's about how unfair it was that she had to be so regimented because she was black. That is, I mean, malignant narcissism doesn't even capture that at all. It's something way beyond. Truly, truly.

1:01:39Glenn Greenwald:I like, I visited military bases. You go, you do walk away thinking, OMG, I don't know how they do it. I mean, that's been my number one impression. Oh my God, they're so strong. They're so dedicated. The stories they tell you, if you're inquisitive, Michelle, if you actually bother to speak with the troops about their experiences, you might learn about what they've had to deal with about like, just, I remember one guy talking to me about the pterodactyl style size mosquitoes that they had to deal with. when they were out on their morning 5K in some of the deployments. Like just things you wouldn't think of.

1:02:13Glenn Greenwald:You know, you think of the enemy, you think of gunfire, you don't think of things like that, like pterodactyl-sized mosquitoes. In any event, she's always about herself. She reduces everything to race. I'm sick of her shtick. That was her podcast today. I mean, this is like, to this day, it's 2026, and she's still bitching about her time as first lady. Get over it, for the love of God. OK, let's keep going. You mentioned Barack Obama droning people. And that brings us to warfare and Iran. We had a briefing from Pentagon Chief Pete Hegseth, Secretary of War, along with the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Dan Raisin, came this morning.

1:02:55Glenn Greenwald:And here was a bit of how that sounded. 13. Thus far, Operation Epic Fury has delivered twice the air power of shock and awe of Iraq in 2003, minus Paul Bremer and the nation building. We are just getting started. We are accelerating, not decelerating. The Iranian Air Force is no more, built for 1996, destroyed in 2026. The Iranian Navy rests at the bottom of the Persian Gulf. Combat ineffective, decimated, destroyed. The combination of U.S. and Israeli intelligence and combat power will control Iran. We've taken control of Iran's airspace and waterways without boots on the ground. We control their fate.

1:03:46Glenn Greenwald:Though the president says we are likely to be there for another four to five weeks. And this is what B.B. Netanyahu said on Hannity the other night, Sat 26. I said it could be quick and decisive. It may take some time, but it's not going to take years. It's not an endless war. In fact, it's an effort right now to achieve the peace that we all yearn and pray for. It may take some time as far as he went, the president saying four to five weeks. We really don't know. It's not going to be quick. And it doesn't seem like they're leaning toward taking the out that a lot of MAGA has been begging them to take, Glenn, which is just say it's a success right now.

1:04:28Glenn Greenwald:You took out the Ayatollah. You took out 39 or 40 other top members of the regime. You've put the Navy at the bottom of the ocean. You've gotten control of the airspace. You've done a lot of damage to their top missile sites and so on. Can we just declare it a win right now and leave and do the thing that should have been done in Iraq after the shock and awe? He made a reference to the shock and awe. Just do that. Just say it's a win right now and leave, but we're not prepared to do that. It's going to get worse, and we're still told that the full unleashing is yet to come. So your thoughts on where we are now on day five.

1:05:03Five. Yeah. Okay. First of all, this is exactly what we heard, not just before the Iraq war, but into the Iraq war. It's only a matter of weeks, maybe a couple months at the most. This is not going to be a prolonged war. We have total dominance over the Iraqi military. They're dispersed. They're destroyed. Their military is destroyed. As you know, of course, President Bush made that, George W. Bush made that notorious trip with the gigantic mission accomplished banner behind him, which I mean, I understand from the military perspective, they did what they were at first told to do. But as we know, that accomplished nothing.

1:05:34We did end up being sucked in to Iraq. On top of that, even Tony Blair, one of the primary decision makers that led to the Iraq war, that advocated it, admits in retrospect that the power vacuum that we created is what gave rise to ISIS, that extremism and all kinds of terrorism can emerge when you take out a government and crush the civil society. So that's one thing. We heard this whole thing before. Yes, they can just say, OK, we're done. But then the question is, what did that accomplish? Remember, the whole thing was justified at first on the grounds that the Iranian government is, you know, slaughtering all of its citizens, killed however many protesters.

1:06:10The number constantly changes, but they killed a lot. And we were so concerned about that. We wanted to change the government, liberate the Iranian people. If we're going to do that, it's obviously going to take months and years of nation building, which is what Pete Hex says is scorning. But if we don't do that, what what if we achieve? We're going to smash this country, leave it in a kind of Syria or Libya like state where we bombed all their police stations. There's no more police. There's going to be anarchy. There's going to be balkanization. There's going to be a power vacuum. Who knows who will fill it for what for?

1:06:42How does that make the United States safer? It doesn't just like the Iraq war didn't.

1:06:48Glenn Greenwald:President Trump doesn't seem to have a clear plan in mind when it comes to the Ayatollah succession plan, like who's likely to be elevated. He said to the media the other day, you know, we had a couple of people in mind, but now they're all dead. It looks like they may have elected Khomeini's son to be the next supreme leader. Not totally clear to me whether that's a done deal or whether it's just heading in that direction right now. but by some accounts he's even more hard line than the old man was and there's a question now about are we already headed to a place where we the the new boss is worse than the old boss and was this thought through i did first of all this does seem very similar in a way and i think a lot of people on maga are hoping it ends up similar to what happened in venezuela which is where we heard for weeks and months about maduro and all the evils of the maduro government it was a communist regime that destroyed liberty and destroyed the country.

1:07:44And that was the original impetus for the war in a lot of people's minds. And then Trump goes in, takes out Maduro, doesn't do much else, blew up some boats, and left the entire rest of the government in place, which I'm glad about. I'm glad we didn't destroy the Venezuelan government and the nation-building Venezuela. But the question then is, like, what did that achieve? We were able to run Venezuela, which we're basically doing. So what is it in Iran? Are we going to just go in and say, okay, we killed the Ayatollah, We killed some senior leadership. And now the country, we're just going to leave it as is, govern the way it was before.

1:08:16He was asked specifically about the Shah of Iran, which is what all these Iranian exiles want, is the Shah of Iran son to go be reinstalled. And when they asked Trump about it, he sounded exactly like when he sounded when they asked if Maria Machado was going to go and rule Venezuela. He was like, yeah, he's a nice guy, but I prefer somebody who's actually in the country, who's popular in the country. I don't think Trump wants a radical change in the governance. The problem, Megan, is that once you start a war like this, you can't control what the other side does. If they do things that require escalation, require retaliation, other countries get involved.

1:08:48That's a very volatile region. And that's what scares me the most is not that Trump wants endless war. He doesn't want to be there for years. But sometimes when you start a war like this, you have no choice. Bush didn't intend to be in Iraq for years either or in Afghanistan for 20 years, and yet we were. The reporting today is from Reuters.

1:09:09Glenn Greenwald:that, because there's a report that we're running low on our interceptors for these missiles at our outposts and domestically. We've given so many to Ukraine. We've already given a bunch to Israel in the wars that they've been involved in. And we've been using them in our combat with the Houthis. We use them when we bomb Nigeria over Christmas. So like, there's a question about whether we have enough interceptors, which are very, very expensive. We're told reportedly 12 million. I've heard as low as 4 million, But I mean, the official said 12 million and you can be using them to take out a thirty thousand dollar drone.

1:09:43So it's like it's a very the the ratio is not great for us because they've got a lot of drones.

1:09:50Glenn Greenwald:The Iranians do and they have missiles and we need these interceptors for both. So now there's a report today from Reuters. per five people familiar with the plan that the Trump administration plans to meet with executives from the biggest U.S. defense contractors at the White House on Friday to discuss accelerating weapons production as the Pentagon works to replenish supplies. We've got Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, all the usual suspects to talk about things like Tomahawk missiles that Raytheon makes and a new agreement with the Pentagon. At the same time that Reuters again reports the White House meeting is coming as Deputy Defense Secretary Steven Feinberg has been leading Pentagon work in recent days on a supplemental budget request of around$50 billion that could be released as soon as Friday.

1:10:34Glenn Greenwald:The new money would pay for replacing the weapons used in recent conflicts, including those in the Middle East. $50 billion is a huge, huge number, Glenn. It's especially huge in advance of midterms when people are having difficulty paying their rent and their mortgage, and their number one complaint, according to the polls, is the economy. I mean, this is everything Trump ran on, not doing. I mean, that is the reality. You can say he changed his mind. You can say whatever conditions change. This is exactly what Trump told people he would not do, was pursue foreign wars that didn't have a direct threat to the United States and use our resources for Raytheon and Boeing and General Dynamics instead of renewing their communities with infrastructure and with healthcare and with the kinds of things that Americans should have just to live a decent middle-class life.

1:11:19It's a total violation of what he told Americans. I'm so glad you brought up, if I can, just quickly about this issue about depleting our stockpiles, especially our anti-missile defenses, which are crucial to how we've been defending Israel. Dan Caldwell is, I think, one of the smartest people on this question. I interviewed him a lot. I've talked to him a lot. He used to be a very high-ranking official. Yeah, he's fantastic. In the Pentagon, got booted out in sort of a power play. But he knows as much about, if not more, about this than anything. And he talks about how during the 12-day war, the U.S.

1:11:47and Israel had to end that war because, as Trump said, Israel was getting pummeled hard by ballistic missiles and they were running out. What Iran has done in this instance is they're not just sending them to Israel. They're sending them to all of the Persian Gulf states on which the United States relies, Saudi Arabia, but especially the Emirates and Bahrain and Saudi Jordan. All these states are getting hit, and they don't have very many anti-missile defenses at all. And this idea that we're going to just ramp up production, these are extremely complex systems. They track missiles. They take missiles out of the sky.

1:12:21There's no such thing as ramping up production in a way that's going to be ready in a few weeks or even a couple months. These are years-long processes to produce them. That's why we ran out last year. We were using them in Yemen. We gave them to Israel. We gave them to Ukraine. We used it to defend Israel. And we still don't have very many because of how long it takes and how intricate the process is to rebuild and replenish the stock cloud. That is a major, major issue.

1:12:44Glenn Greenwald:Yeah, and reportedly it's one of the reasons why we waited to even launch this thing because we were considering doing it a few weeks ago when all those protesters were on the streets of Iran. But we didn't because we realized we needed to reposition our military assets and we needed to shore up some of these interceptors for the expected missile attacks, both at the U.S. bases and with our friends. And now it sounds like we're spread thin, although the good news, if you, you know, if you're looking for good news here, appears to be that, at least for now, the number of missiles being launched out of Iran has gone down.

1:13:19Glenn Greenwald:Here's General Jack Keene on Fox News yesterday. Yeah, Tuesday, SOT 31. Where we are, it exceeds a lot of expectations here. Yesterday, after two days, we have reduced attacks by 50 percent. Today, after three days, we've reduced the attacks by 75 percent. Not only that, this is from ballistic missiles now, and not only that, but the Iranians had, through their own intelligence and communication with each other, and obviously we have a capability to understand what they're communicating, what they're putting, what orders they're putting out their their own expectation was salvos, Martha, 25 to 50 salvos.

1:14:04And the reason for that is if you shoot all those missiles at the same time, you're going to overwhelm the Israeli defense systems and overwhelm the U.S. defense systems on our bases. Well, they haven't been able to do that.

1:14:18Glenn Greenwald:So what do you make of it? Well, I'm not privy to the intelligence I would need to be to say for certain if that's true or not. I would put the very strong note of caution that the government and the military in every war, not just our own, but every country's lie to the population, always tell them that we're winning, whether we are or not. This is a very common thing. But let's just assume that that's true, because there is this theory that they've been using their primitive missiles on purpose. They're primitive just to exhaust the anti-missile capabilities, and that they're really hypersonic and more advanced ones are ones that they're once those defenses are eroded.

1:14:52But let's assume they're running out of missiles or bombing their missile facilities. Megan, the whole point of what happened in the Iraq war between Ukraine and, sorry, the Ukraine war between Ukraine and Russia is that this has been a war that wasn't determined by these big, gigantic, technologically sophisticated missile systems, but by very cheap drones. That's what's doing all of the damage on the battlefield. And a lot of this supply that Russia has been using has been coming from Iran. That's the thing is, you don't need ballistic missiles to do huge damage As you were just describing, you need like$20 ,000,$30 ,000 drones that you can shoot huge amounts of, even if you don't have a lot of ballistic missiles left and do a ton of damage, especially if you're eroding the anti-missile capability, not just of the U.S.

1:15:33and Israel, but again, the Persian Gulf countries that are going to start demanding that the U.S. stop because their populations are being exposed to attack. and i think there's a lot of complications here that aren't being you know it's day five the other thing i'll quickly add is you know pete hexa said we totally dominate them we have control of their air their navy the waters the navy we determine their fate if we can totally dominate iran in five days after five days of war how is it possible at the same time to say that this was some grave power that was threatening the united states when apparently according to pete hexa it just all completely crumpled.

1:16:09They have like 30-year-old systems, he said. And it's hard to reconcile those claims with the claim that Iran is some sophisticated, great power that can do great damage to Americans at home.

1:16:21Glenn Greenwald:Well, the president was out there yesterday trying to do some cleanup in aisle seven after Marco Rubio appears to have told the truth to the gang of eight and then was kind of forced to say it to reporters because he'd already said it to the gang of eight, which is the reason why we launched this attack when we did. That's the most charitable interpretation that the statement was just about timing. But Marco Rubio very clearly told reporters that we did it because we knew that there was going to be Israeli action and that there would be a retaliatory strike by Iran against us. And we preferred to hit them first, but that BB was in there saying, we're doing it, Israel, and that we made a calculation, we better join with them because we're going to take incoming from Iran in response to that.

1:17:03Glenn Greenwald:And we don't want to be hit after, like we don't want to be hit before we've hit. Here was that comment from Rubio on Monday, Sat 16. It was abundantly clear that if Iran came under attack by anyone, the United States or Israel or anyone, they were going to respond and respond against the United States. We knew that there was going to be an Israeli action. We knew that that would precipitate an attack against American forces. And we knew that if we didn't preemptively go after them before they launched those attacks, we would suffer higher casualties. There absolutely was an imminent threat. And the imminent threat was that we knew that if Iran was attacked, and we believe they would be attacked, that they would immediately come after us.

1:17:41Glenn Greenwald:Okay, then there was a follow up by a reporter on site saying, basically, wait, did you just say that we did this because of Israel? Watch this. No,

1:17:53first of all, let me two things I would say. Number one is, no matter what, ultimately, this operation needed to happen. That's the question of why now. But this operation needed to happen because Iran in about a year or a year and a half would cross the line of immunity, meaning they would have so many short range missiles, so many drones that no one could do anything about it. Obviously, we were aware of Israeli intentions and understood what that would mean for us. And we had to be prepared to act as a result of it. But this had to happen no matter what. Okay.

1:18:18Glenn Greenwald:So that's him saying, ultimately, at some point, we were going to have to hit them. But we had to do it now because of Israel, which is like sort of his it's the same same thing as what he said in the first soundbite, which is we had to do this because of Israel. And the reporter basically said, did you say we had to do because of Israel? And he said, no, eventually it was going to have to happen, but we did it because of Israel. And then yesterday, Rubio went out and spoke to reporters and took umbrage at the fact that they were saying, hey, you said yesterday we had to do it now because of Israel.

1:18:46Glenn Greenwald:And he said, oh, no, I didn't go back and look. Well, we did. We went back. I looked at the entire transcript and I love Rubio. I'd vote for him in a heartbeat for president. But he was not taken out of context. He did say that. He said it over and over and over. If you watch the whole presser, you read the whole transcript. He said it repeatedly, the thing about Israel. And you tell me what's really going on here, Glenn, because for me, I got to be honest, I'm confused because the obvious response, if Israel was in there, Bibi saying, we're going to go now, the Ayatollah is having a meeting. We got to take them out.

1:19:16Glenn Greenwald:We're doing it with or without you. If we did not want that would have been to say, no, we're the senior partner. Everybody knows that Trump could have stopped Bibi if we were worried about retaliatory strikes and we're not ready yet. And we didn't do that. We clearly wanted to do that. So is this Israeli inspired? Is it for Israel or isn't it? Well, one thing that I know for sure, and Netanyahu has said it many times in the past several weeks, is that this has been his number one wish for 40 years is to lure the United States into a regime change war or a very serious war with Israel's main adversary in the Middle East, which is Iran.

1:19:48You can literally go back 40 years to Netanyahu advocating this. And now he says, this has long been my number one wish list. This has been the wish list of Israel loyalists and neocons in the United States. They planned to do it after Iraq, but got tied down in Iraq. You can go find 2004 articles where they're like, now we're on to Tehran. But the problem that Rubio has, and by the way, other people said exactly what Rubio said, including Tom Cotton and others, because if you think about it - And Speaker Johnson. And Mike Johnson, exactly. So the problem is -

1:20:16Glenn Greenwald:And members of the gang of eight have come out and said that's what they were told, but when they got briefed over the weekend as well. I mean, in every comment, they said, we had to because Israel was going to do this and we had no choice but to go along. Exactly. And the reason for it is because the reason why, you know, Mark Rube is a very competent speaker, very quick on his feet. But the reason it was so difficult is because you have to say that this was a preventative war. Otherwise, the war has no basis. Like, why did you just go and attack Iran if they weren't going to attack us? So they have to say, oh, no, they were going to attack us and we wanted to attack first.

1:20:46Nobody believes that Iran was just going to, out of the blue, attack the United States and provoke a war that they obviously have been working very hard to prevent. Nobody was going to believe that. So then the question is, why would they attack us? And the only cogent, sensible answer that Marco Rubio could have given was, oh, they were going to attack us because Israel was going to attack them, meaning we were forced into this war by what Israel was going to do. Go look at how Donald Trump talks to Europe and the leverage he knows he has by virtue of the fact that we spend so much on their defense and he's constantly badgering them and telling them what they can and can't do.

1:21:17Israel is a thousand times more dependent on the United States, on our finances. We finance that country. We arm them. We go to war for them. We diplomatically protect them. Trump could have, in theory, just told Netanyahu, we're not ready for a war with Iran. We don't want a war with Iran. So no, you cannot attack them because that will put our troops in harm's way, which is exactly what happened. Six of them died in the first 24 hours. So the question is, why didn't Trump do that? And there's a lot of theories about it. But clearly, he is somebody who is beholden to Netanyahu and Miriam Adelson and this whole crew that has become dominant.

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1:25:09Glenn Greenwald:News only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

1:25:18The last thing I just want to quickly add, Megyn, is Mark Rubio saying this was something we had to do. We had to eventually go to war with Iran. If that were true, why didn't Donald Trump throughout 2024 when he was running for president let the American people know, hey, by the way, we're going to have to go to war with Iran at some point. He said the opposite. He did say we can't allow them to have a nuclear weapon. But a major war like this, sinking their navy, shattering their city, if that were if everybody knew Trump had to do that, why was that hidden from the American people when he was running for president?

1:25:47That should have been something that should have been part of the plank of the Republican Party.

1:25:52Glenn Greenwald:The IAEA, which does the inspections of the Iranian nuclear program, the Defense Intelligence Agency here in America, reportedly both had been saying Iran is not anywhere near getting a nuclear weapon or is not shorter than 10 years away from getting a ballistic missile that could hit the United States. So they were telling the intelligence that President Trump was getting was saying there is not an imminent attack. There is not a rebuilding of the nuclear program. There is only an ambition. There's a desire by the Iranians to do it. That's I don't I don't know when we've ever launched a war based on desire, like an unfulfilled, esoteric desire.

1:26:33Glenn Greenwald:This is why it's also extraordinary. and yet it seems to me that they saw an opportunity to take out the Ayatollah, who was a bad guy and Israel hated. And Bibi Netanyahu made note very clear for those 40 years and during his seven visits to the White House, this is undisputed, that he wanted to launch a war against Iran and that he was pressuring President Trump to help. He wanted the United States to help and he knew he couldn't do it without our blessing and we decided to go along with it pretty late in the game, according to all the reports. So to me, that's why all of it makes very clear this was a Netanyahu-inspired action.

1:27:05Glenn Greenwald:He wanted it. And he talked our president into it because, let's face it, Iran's not been warm and fuzzy towards the United States. And they've committed multiple sins against us and our troops in Iraq and elsewhere. And we're kind of pissed. We don't fucking like Iran. And the Ayatollah's killed a lot of Americans. So it's like there's been simmering, building resentment for years. That's not normally why you launch a hot war out of the blue when you run a not launching wars. That's how I see it. two months before the last attack on iran by the united states and israel last year in june of 2025 two months before that tulsi gabbard the director of national intelligence the person whose job it is to understand and coordinate and and and summarize the intelligence for president trump went before the senate and testified under oath that the consensus of the intelligence agencies is that the iranian government had not made any decision to cry and acquire a nuclear weapon that's the first thing that was the intelligence.

1:27:59And then when they asked Trump about it, he was like, I don't care what she says. Very similar to how Dick Cheney was told by the CIA that Iraq, that Saddam Hussein doesn't have WMD. And he just said, I don't care what you say and created his own kind of alternative world that justified the war. And then the second thing is, you know, why would Iran want a nuclear weapon? The reason, Megan, is, is like, look at the countries we attack and look at the countries we don't attack. We've been told forever that North Korea is run by crazy, insane, fanatical people. We don't go and attack them. Why not?

1:28:26Because they have nuclear weapons. Countries with nuclear weapons don't get messed with. We've created a world where people understand if you don't have nuclear weapons, you're liable at any moment to get attacked by the United States or Israel. If you have nuclear weapons, you're all safe and secure. We've created a world where every rational country is incentivized to get them. And that is a dangerous signal to send to the world.

1:28:47Glenn Greenwald:Well, just yesterday, we saw an announcement from Poland that they are now going to be pursuing a nuclear weapon. And so, you know, it is kind of scary to think we're allies with Poland, obviously, and their NATO. But the question is, how many more are now going to say, I'm getting one. I don't care what you think. Mark Levin, very, very happy, almost as happy as Lindsey Graham over this whole thing. And taking issue with the remarks I made them, many other people made them, that were angry about those six dead American service men and women. We're angry. And we don't feel that they needed to die and that they died in a war that was for Israel, not not for us.

1:29:25Glenn Greenwald:This is a war that was for Israel. It was at Israel's behest and which was unnecessary. This was not a defensive action. Iran was not attacking us. You know, it was not like when we went after the Taliban after 9-11 and Al Qaeda. I mean, we had been attacked. It was a massive provocation and no one would reasonably dispute that we had the right to defend ourselves, which is why so many countries came to fight with us. That plus the NATO obligation. Anyway, here's Mark Levin yesterday. But the battle against the Iranian regime, the purpose is to protect the American people, protect our armed forces, protect the homeland, help our allies, protect tens of thousands of people from being slaughtered who've been slaughtered.

1:30:14And yes, retribution to make it clear that you don't get to do this to us for half a century without any effective response. So, of course, if we lose heroes and we lost three, and there may be more, the president says likely so because it's a massive military operation. It's a terrible thing. They gave their lives, they gave their lives for a great cause.

1:30:42Glenn Greenwald:A great cause. Frank Gaffney was on with Steve Bannon two days ago saying, it's basically cost free. He's like, I know some service personnel died, but this is basically cost-free to us. So great cause, cost-free. Your thoughts? You know, for a long time, it was taboo to talk about the fact that U.S. foreign policy is driven by Israel and people who in the United States view Israel as their most sacred cause, even though presidents in private have long said that. I mean, there's tapes of Richard Nixon going back and Barry Goldwater said it, and you go on and on. But in public, nobody was allowed to say it.

1:31:15And so the problem was is that we created this climate where a major fact about our foreign policy and about the wars we fight was banned, basically, because you would stand accused of bigotry and racism and anti-Semitism if you said that. Thankfully, that taboo is now broken, though they're desperately trying to maintain it. And I think the main reason is— Of course they are. They're desperate. But it's done. I mean, they don't—there's too much because of independent media, too many sources of information. And, you know, it's like the left found out. If you overuse the racism accusation or misogyny or homophobia, you drive it into the point of meaninglessness and nobody cares anymore.

1:31:50And that's the same as they found with anti-Semitism. If everybody is anti-Semite, it basically now means nothing. They've trivialized the term. The reality is that Israel pours huge amounts of money into our political system. Right now, they're spending, you know, tens of millions of dollars from Miriam Adelson on down to remove Thomas Massey from the Congress in a one single Kentucky district, congressional district, because of his opposition to to the U.S. financing and arming Israel. They've succeeded in doing that to many other people. People are petrified of the Israel lobby. And that has been a major reason why we've been so willing to send our troops into the Middle East to die for Israel.

1:32:29In fact, you know, Megan, during the bombardment of Gaza and then some exchange of missiles, we deployed our own troops to go defend Israel. And there were people on military bases who died, American soldiers during that time. They definitely died for Israel. And we were supposed to get out of the Middle East for so long. The U.S. security state was saying we need to pivot to Asia. We no longer have vital interests in the Middle East. What are our vital interests in the Middle East? Oil? We have so much oil. Those countries will happily provide us oil. We control Venezuelan's oil. Oil is not a vital interest.

1:32:59We've long been told China's our main adversary, pivot to Asia, and yet we can't extricate ourselves from the Middle East. And the reason is for Israel. And as we're spending billions and billions and billions on these wars, look what China is doing. They don't fight wars. They haven't fought a war since 1979 because they know how self-destructive they are.

1:33:17Glenn Greenwald:Yeah, but I'm sure they're building up their interceptors and their military assets quietly, steadily throwing money at that problem. while we're over here expending all of ours for a war that benefits a foreign country, a country of 9 million people, not the country of 350 million people. I mean, that's why the Daily Mail has a poll out today talking about where the president's numbers are right now in the wake of this, and it's not good. And this is just months before we have the midterms where you've got, it shows President Trump down four points just since Friday. They say that he's at 44 % down four points since Friday, marking the lowest rating recorded in Daily Mail tracking to date.

1:33:58Glenn Greenwald:Only 24 % of voters believe killing Iran's supreme leader will make Americans safer. 55 % claim the risk of terror attacks on U.S. soil has gone up because of these strikes. 40 % of voters say their view of Trump has become more negative in the last week. Compared to 26%, their opinion of him has improved. And obviously, when asked what the main reason was, their view had worsened. 59 % cited the war with Iran. Prices are too high. And now he started a war, said one respondent. So, I mean, that's the real thing. Like to me, I just, it's amazing to me. I've gone through this whole crazy thing in the past, you know, I don't know, since last July.

1:34:37Glenn Greenwald:Since last July, when I made one comment about whether Epstein might've been an asset for the Mossad and people started calling me an anti-Semite after being ardently pro-Israel and very, very defensive as I remain of American Jews. And I was like, what's happened here? What, why, whoa, like they know I'm not an anti-Semitism. They know that I'm not for sure. They know that. So why are they unleashing that term against me? And then Charlie was murdered. And the discussion came up about what his feelings were on Israel. And you weren't allowed to even raise that. And I had had a conversation with Charlie in August, the month before he was killed.

1:35:14Glenn Greenwald:I hope people go watch that. People should go watch that if you haven't seen it. It was an incredible 30 minute exchange we had. that wasn't even on the agenda. You know, when you're coming on the show, we'll give you a couple of like a little outline. Like we'll probably hit these five topics if you want to bone up. And we had done that for Charlie too. And we had not given Charlie anything about Israel. It just, it was still resonating with me. We were both still reeling because we were both called anti-Semites. And he was so pro-Israel too. And we were both pissed. It was like, what the fuck?

1:35:44Glenn Greenwald:This is bullshit. And we had a long talk about it. And then from that point forward, it's just been nonstop with like, you're an anti-Semite. You have to defriend Tucker. You have to speak out about this person or that person and their commentary. And I've been saying all along, I'm responsible for my own commentary. I don't, I have no obligation to defriend anyone. And by the way, I don't believe Tucker's an anti-Semite. And I'm responsible for the words that come out of my mouth. And that's it, period. period, it's been nonstop. And now, honestly, Glenn, I can barely go on X because I get trolled so heavily by the pro-Israel crowd and the Israel first crowd, and then the bots.

1:36:26Glenn Greenwald:There are many, many bots on X that are part of an operation. And then there are many, many live humans on X who actually get$7 ,000 a tweet. People have come out and admitted it from the Israelis to troll anybody who deviates from the party line. And so like, I want the audience to understand that this is happening and it's an effort by a foreign country to silence the views of American about American foreign policy. That is fucked up. That's not okay. It's one thing to have regular Americans say, I disagree with you on this. That's fine. We should all be doing that. It's quite another to have a foreign country actively interfering online to silence American voices about its interference in our affairs and the lives of our American service personnel.

1:37:17You know, Megan, I grew up in, like, an overwhelmingly Jewish, like, subculture. Every one of my family is Jewish, you know, friends, et cetera. I went to Jewish camp every year for the summer. There is anti-Semitism in the world. Like, there's racism. Like, there is everything else. and it has manifested in dangerous ways, but you can smell it. You can sense it. I know Tucker extremely well, hours and hours and hours in front of the camera, out of the camera talking to him. I know you very well. And when you see people who you know aren't even, I mean, Megan, you and I have fought on this very show where you were defending Israel or more so like the expulsion of anti-Israel protesters on the grounds of anti-Semitism.

1:38:00And this is like you for forever, you know, have been a stalwart defender of Israel and simply and so was Charlie. But simply because you both started asking questions about, wait a minute, is this war really in our interest? Is this really Israel exerting undue influence? They don't tolerate that debate and they start shutting it down by calling you a bigot and a racist. And when you have the self-possession to know you're not that, you will not be, you know, bullied by it. You will not be told that you can't speak about your own country and our government's policies. And by doing that, they really have trivialized anti-Semitism, which has long been one of the big dangers because it's supposed to pack a punch.

1:38:37Like you're supposed to not want to be called an anti-Semite publicly, but they've so cynically exploited it into a weapon to force you to pledge loyalty to Israel, just like the left did with the racism accusation, as I said, that it's completely drained it of all its meaning. And they've done more than anybody else now, not just to open up what has long been necessary, which is this very serious debate about how much we do for Israel and why. But also they've opened up this this world where, you know, people don't care anymore about standing accused of that accusation because people see how cynically it's wielded against people who so blatantly are far, far from anything that is recognizable as anti-Semitism.

1:39:16You know, I'm so relieved to see you and Tucker Charlie before he was murdered and a lot of other people on the right. Thomas Massey, Charlie Green. This is a you're right. Benjamin Netanyahu says controlling the message on social media, combating anti-Israel sentiment on social media is one of the most important battles that the Israelis have in their war. And they've done a lot to regain control of social media, including taking TikTok away and giving it to the Ellison family. But and doing a lot on X as well. But it's so much as somebody who's been criticizing Israel and arguing about this for a long time.

1:39:49It's so much better now than it ever has been that finally we get to have this debate out in the open to the point where there's a New York Times article this morning saying that Trump battles the perception of his own base that this war was for Israel. That was unthinkable even five years ago.

1:40:05Glenn Greenwald:I will say this in real life, which is not X. I have so many people stop me. Jewish Americans saying this is such bullshit. We know you're not an anti-Semite. Please don't listen to these rabid folks online. They don't speak for us. And I know that. But it is amazing to me just to watch the bullying happen, you know, where like they all pile on. And I've even noticed that if I put out a tweet that's critical of Israel or even mildly, you know, or like whatever, Lindsey Graham, I'll get completely trolled on my tweet. But if somebody who's not considered an Israeli ally, you know, who's been more open in their criticisms of Israel.

1:40:42Glenn Greenwald:If they retweet the tweet, it's a very different response. Like they're not, they're not, I don't know if you are or not, but like a lot of the people who would retweet something, I would tweet along these lines. They're not actively getting trolled anymore, or maybe they never were. Maybe they're people like me who they considered a strong ally, who they think might be waffling. They, they reserve a particular ire for people like that in the same way that like, if you were a Democrat and you turn on the Democrats, They really pile on you. You know what I mean? Like you've betrayed them. You're supposed to be on their team and you didn't.

1:41:13Glenn Greenwald:You aren't any longer. And I'll tell you what, it's like, I'm allowed to have questions about Israel. I haven't been ardently defensive of Israel, you know, for my career, but in general, as you and I have talked about before, I'm not like huge on foreign policy. Right, right. And, you know, I'm mildly supportive of Israel in general. And certainly after 10-7, very defensive of Israel's right to defend itself fully and really just didn't pay that much attention to the day-to-day conduct of the war, although I saw the terrible headlines. My biggest struggle over the past couple of years has been who do I trust on information, on the death toll, on who's getting, you know what I mean?

1:41:46Glenn Greenwald:It was like, Hamas is a propaganda artist. And now what I see is so is Israel. So is Israel. Like they are absolutely working and paying to manipulate public opinion in the United States as we speak. And so I no longer trust them when it comes to messaging either. And I will not be silenced by bullies of any kind, whether it's BLM bullies, whether it's leftist bullies whether it's you know the the people who tried to cancel me after trump and i had that debate bullies whether it's vladimir putin i will not be silenced by these bullies i don't care you warned them you warned them ahead of time you said if you think this is going to silence me it's going to have the opposite effect charlie said the same thing yeah i didn't mean to suggest you were some like hardcore israel crusader just that you know on foreign policy you worked at fox i think you were generally supportive of the war on terror mindset with some questions You were never somebody, I guess I just mean that you were never somebody who was like an Israel critic.

1:42:38And even after October 7th, as you just recounted, and I know for this personally, you were somebody who was mostly sympathizing with Israel. They had been attacked, was your view, and these protests were anti-Semitic. And to watch them basically pick you up and Charlie up and Tucker as well, and basically turn you into anti-Semites just simply for expressing some questions or doubts, which you have every, not just the right, but the obligation to do. as American journalists, as American citizens. It's disgusting. It's as despicable to me as what the left did when they accused people of being racist or otherwise bigoted without any basis whatsoever.

1:43:14And it's creating the same backlash. It's exactly the same mentality. It's exactly the same tactic.

1:43:19Glenn Greenwald:Thankfully, I have experience there too. And I was swept up in that as well. Like I've been called all the things. So I'm used to being called the things. It's not pleasant, but you can't let it silence you. I worry more about like regular citizens who are having the same doubts I am and experiences kind of blowback in their own personal lives and don't maybe have a platform and don't have like a daily reassurance in terms of whatever, there's their ability to go out there and keep doing their job that they're secure. And so this, like it has to stop and we have to speak out about it. I still support President Trump fully.

1:43:51Glenn Greenwald:I am completely rooting for our success in what is clearly a war. I am 100 % rooting for our troops, but I'd like it to end. I'd like it to end ASAP. so we can minimize the loss of human life and go back to worrying about our own citizens. Glenn Greenwald, thank you. Thank you for always being a true teller. Always great to see you, Megan. Love having you on. We're back tomorrow with the pastor who was interrupted by Don Lemon. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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