Genetic Genealogy and DNA Evidence - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates Nancy Guthrie's Disappearance | Ep. 1276

26:35But it's possible that they are cooperating. Yes. Yes. Short of, you know, knowing what I know about the Koberger case, I would say, oh, no, they're not going to do that because this is the DOJ's own interim policy on genetic genealogy. But they sure did it in that case. And listen, I get I see both sides of it. You know, I get it why you would want to do that, but I'm kind of a rule follower and there are policies and things in place because what can happen and I've seen this happen. It gets taken away for everyone. Right. So there used to be a YSTR database. Yes, right. So there used to be a YSTR database, this sort of a family tree, a surname search.

27:15It was publicly available. People could go online and search, put in their YSTR profile. Well, law enforcement found out about that and started searching. And then they found the wrong person in a pretty high profile crime. And then the company, which I think was related to Sorenson, it was in Utah, they just took the whole website down. So now nobody has access to it. So that scares me. DOJ is worried that if we start going into these private databases too much, they will never cooperate and no one will ever get their DNA over and they will be rendered maybe not useless, but they will sort of stop in 2016.

27:55March of 2016 or 2026 was the last time anybody willingly gave their DNA over because that's when it became so readily available to law enforcement. So I get it too. And I mean, I almost understand the Kohlberger thing. It's like four college students were murdered in the course of 12 minutes by some serial maniac. Like that one seems rather extreme. You might actually bend the policy. With respect to Nancy Guthrie, it's like, I don't know that this would rise to the same level of like, oh my God, you know, there's some massive serial killers on the loose. We'll see. Will, did you have any questions for Susanna or comments?

28:29I do. Megan, thank you again for the invite on the show. I think one of the things that we were discussing last week, the three of us, was about the control of the scene of crime, you know, and how they were taping off this area and how well protecting or preserving they were of the evidence. And that was one of our biggest concerns, particularly when they lifted, obviously, the tape around the property, literally, I think it was a day or two after the actual disappearance of Nancy. And then there was that incident of one of the neighbor's dogs having a pee on the front steps of the actual property itself.

29:06And so the question that I would have really for Susanna is, what question is there to the degradation of DNA integrity? Is there because one of the biggest concerns is if they were so haphazard potentially about controlling this scene of crime, what they were actually doing in terms of gathering that evidence, how well they gathered it, whether there could have been a huge amount of cross-contamination on that DNA, or is it precise enough that it will be preserved for a good period of time? And how long would it last, do you think? Right. So DNA that's outside the home, if there was anything outside, for example, you know, that welcome mat that I think is probably still sitting there.

29:49That was an item if they had collected right away, what if the perpetrator with that mouth flashlight, there was some saliva that came out of his mouth and landed on the mat? That would have been great. At this point, I think it's probably useless because it's been sitting outside, it's exposed to the elements. How many people have walked on that mat that have transferred or taken DNA, picked DNA up, put DNA down? So that's gonna be an issue for anything that's outside. I don't think we have to be concerned about degradation, especially the inside samples. So degradation refers to the breakdown of DNA where we're no longer able to get results because the DNA is sort of falling apart.

30:31I don't think that's as much of a concern as cross-contamination or contamination from people walking through the house, people touching things. Again, even if the investigators, the crime scene people have gloves on, there's something called investigator-mediated transfer. Anything they touch with a glove and then touch something else, they could have picked up DNA from that one object and placed it on another. So that is more of a concern to me. Now, the DNA can last a really long time. it can last days, weeks, months, even years, you know, depending on how well that area is cleaned. You know, I had a case once where there was a CODIS hit on this.

31:10It was a double homicide and there was DNA on the bathroom door where the murder had occurred. And it was a male profile. The same male profile was on the kitchen hand towel hit in CODIS. It couldn't have been him. He was in jail for the past year. So, I mean, DNA just can last a long time. Yes. Wow. Oh, I mean, that's very telling. I have a question for you about, I mentioned in the intro, the ability to create a picture of a suspected perp without knowing who the person is. So they test the DNA. Let's say they go into the Nancy's bedroom and on her headboard, they find unknown dna it there's no hit in codis they actually get the permission to run it through 23andmeandancestry no hits no idea who this is there is a company i think there's more than one but what the one we featured at nbc was parabon and andrea canning who i work with there by the way like her positive comment about NBC.

32:17She's sweet. They ran her DNA through Parabon, this company that does this, and they came up with like a profile of what she would look like, not based on what Andrea actually looks like, just based on the DNA. Parabon does this service where they say, this is what this person, they can tell like, oh, of Irish descent and possibly with like, you know, Spanish influence, whatever it is. And look at what they came up with. this is the actual Andrea on the right in the red, and this is the profile of her that they came up with on the left. It's amazing. They have the general facial structure. The nose is close.

32:57The mouth is pretty close. The eyes are pretty good. They've got the blonde hair. I think this is incredible, and that there was a lot they could tell about Andrea Canning without having anything other than an unmatched DNA sample to anyone. So can you talk about that, Susanna? Yeah. So interestingly, that was kind of the forebearer of genetic genealogy. So the same type of testing, it's the same data that they have for genealogy. That is what is also used to find out things like hair color, eye color, ethnicity. Do they have freckles or not? Because it's all in your DNA, right? So they're just looking at specific areas that they've already tested.

33:43So Parabon, that's what they initially, that's what they were known for, was doing these sort of genetic composites. Once GEDmatch, that private DNA database, hit about 1 million profiles, they knew at that point they had a good chance of actually identifying people. So they're the ones that started uploading these unknowns and getting matches once there were enough people in that database. And it was because they already had all of these police agencies who had already done the composite profiles. It's the same DNA. They didn't have to do any more testing, just were searching it. So do you think if they found DNA, let's say on Nancy's headboard and on the backdoor handle and on what's left of the Nest camera, like its cradle, which I think remains, you don't know who it is, but you know it's the same DNA.

34:37from the same man, let's say, that they could come up with a picture like that, that they could start determining ethnicity, hair color. The freckles thing is crazy. In my case, they'd be like, we can tell you for sure she cannot do directions in a car, and she's very bad at facial recognition. I'm convinced this is a genetic problem I have. But would they be able to do that? Assuming it was not a mixture or not too much of a mixture, yes, they could. Wow. Oh, that's so interesting. All right, Susanna, this is, you've been awesome. Final question for you. Do you think that DNA will solve this case?

35:16um yeah i i do think that there's a good chance of it um i feel like it's almost like a needle in a haystack at this point right i mean we have this i'm sure there have been so many samples collected and the lab is probably working on them or has already gotten results and there as you said before there can be a lot going on behind the scenes that we simply don't know about right so it's very possible that they already have a profile isolated and now they're doing that genealogy step. And that can be very time consuming. You know, if someone isn't in the database, their close relatives aren't in the database, the further out the relatives are, the longer it takes to be able to build that family tree.

35:59So that very well could be going on behind the scenes right now. I remember Cece Moore explaining that she would go, she would pull birth announcements, she would pull marriage announcements, death announcements, to try to, like, it's a painstaking process because they really do have to create the whole family tree around the person who they did get the hit on. Like this sixth cousin, you know, twice removed. You know that this person's in the database and is somehow related to your perp. But to find the perp, it's this huge spider web around this person. You've got to figure out their whole life.

36:31Who got married to whom? What are the other offspring? Who are this person's cousins? Where did they move? Like, it takes a long time. You're right. So this could be happening. We're praying that it's happening and that they have enough DNA in this house to go by. And sorry, I should have asked this, but you were saying before, even though this guy was covered head to toe, you think he left DNA? I do, especially given the amount of time they think that he was in the house. I just, knowing what I know about how easy it is to get DNA, you know, for example, in the laboratory, we're constantly wiping down surfaces with bleach.

37:05We're putting down fresh paper, changing our gloves. I'll go through a box of gloves on like one item of evidence because I don't want to transfer DNA. It's so sensitive. So if you have someone, and still, rarely of course, but it can happen even in the laboratory, right? So if you have these protective equipment and things that are going on in the lab, and you can still occasionally transfer DNA, think about how easy it's going to happen in real life. And the longer he spends there, anytime he's touching anything, even that mask that he has on, his DNA is going to be sort of sloughing off the skin cells on that mask.

37:46And DNA doesn't just stay on one, you know, it's not going to just stay on the inside of the mask. It's a tiny little cell. It's going to go through to the outside. And he could be picking up DNA from his mask, from his clothes, you know. So it's very easy to transfer DNA. And even though he was covered, I do think that there's a good possibility he left DNA behind. Gosh, you make a good point, though, about that welcome mat. It's too bad that was still sitting there, right? That was such a good observation. Jeez, what else was left behind that should be in an evidence bag? Susanna Ryan, thank you so much.

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41:51James and Will. How interesting was that? Right? That was good stuff. Yeah, totally. Fascinating. Fascinating. I learned a heck of a lot. I have to say from Susanna, she certainly has subject matter expert, that's for sure. Yeah. She testified in 140 cases, so she definitely knows what she's doing. And maybe this really will be the way. So I teed it up with her first because there's a place I'm going with this. And it has to do with your theory, James, about this being potentially a South American B &E crew breaking. See, I'm like in the biz now, a B &E breaking and entering crew. Because you've been saying on this program for a couple of weeks now that you'd seen video of these South American criminals who were breaking into homes.

42:40So we finally went and pulled what you were talking about. And this is my new number one theory. You've got me. Now that I see the video of these guys, I totally get it. Will, you've got to look at this. We pulled video of what James is talking about. We have a few different episodes. Here's one. This is in, hold on a second. This is video four, which is San Diego. Okay. For the listening audience, they look a lot like our perp. They have a hoodie sweatshirt on. They have black masks. They have gloves. They are pretty much covered head to toe. They're clearly not wanting to be recognized and potentially not wanting DNA.

43:19Now, here's another guy. He's got like a, it looks like a balaclava that you'd wear skiing over your head. You can only see the guy's eyes. Now, here's another group sneaking onto somebody's back porch. There's three or four of them in each of these videos, except, yeah, there's like, they're together. Now here, this guy, look, the backpack, the face covering, and there's another one we're going to show. But they, I'm going to start with you on it, Will, because it's not your theory. But look at this guy. This is in Tennessee. He's got the backpack. He's got the reflective thing on the front of the backpack or a light.

43:56I can't tell which. This almost looks like the actual guy who broke into Nancy's. So your thoughts on it, Will. okay so my initial thoughts and james and i have we've discussed this at some length and and i think we're going to continue to to argue the toss on this one uh my my gut feeling is it isn't a b and e the simple reason being is the value of the contents of the house and secondly the actual disappearance of nancy's body itself you know her person uh it's vanished and without wishing to sound flippant in terms of the the outfits that these individuals are wearing. It looks like a standard day in London, if I'm absolutely honest with you.

44:32We get a lot of people walking around dressed like this. So it's really about the fact that the disappearance of Nancy, which sort of conflicts me to fully buying into the B &E theory. You're on this. So you're on the FITS program of victimology is where you start. Like, look at the victim. What happened to her? Who would have the motive to hurt her? That's how you solve the crime as opposed to this. And why remove her? And why take her away from the property? Yeah. Go ahead, James. Well, I was going to ask Susanna, not having a DNA match so far, and they might have one. Again, they're keeping this very close to the vest, what they do have, what they don't have.

45:12But if you came in here on a tourist visa, you flew in from another country, and you came in through a port of entry, we're not going to have your DNA. If you haven't been arrested in the US, We're not going to have your fingerprints. So all this DNA, if they're coming up blank, again, to me, that might point toward this theory of, you know, it was a criminal, transnational criminal group. And that's why we're not getting any DNA hits. You know, as far as the body, I've, again, I'm with Will, I wrestle on that a lot, but I also know that, you know, these guys aren't stupid and it's very difficult for you as an American to understand, you know, how little human life can be valued.

45:50And if you're from another part of the world where, and I've been there and so has Will, human life doesn't mean as much. And, you know, take her, why? Because there's evidence on her, just as Susanna pointed out. There's trace DNA evidence all over her body. So they took her, you know, that could be a theory that would explain, you know, why they did take the body. But again, you know, it is a theory, but a lot of things seem to, you know, be adding up. Well, here's the other thing that's interesting about the theory. You know Jennifer Coffindaffer? She's former FBI, and she's a commentator, frequent on News Nation and on X.

46:28And she was pointing out—she's a retired FBI special agent—that an FBI spokesperson has said, they said last month, that they're posting billboards in cities throughout Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and California with pictures of Nancy. You know, call 1-800-CALL-FBI. Now, you could just say those are the states around Arizona, Arizona and their surrounding states, or you could draw conclusions from this. And here is what she asked. While law enforcement doesn't have the DNA from Nancy's house entirely sorted out, she writes, do they have a DNA contributor's origin figured out? Kind of like the paraben thing we were discussing.

47:13Is the person of Mexican descent? This is why I ask. Billboards in California, Arizona, and Texas, particularly Houston, these are all states, she writes, with large Mexican populations. Just because the DNA has not identified the exact person, has the sex and ethnicity of any of the profiles in the samples been determined? culturally many hispanic men groom their eyebrows like women that's just a fact she writes she continues i am hispanic so i'm very familiar with this i bet that dna has already provided some answers the fbi did not randomly choose where those billboards should go there was a reason what do you guys make of that i think there's every good chance that they may have some sort of profiling there in terms of ethnicity.

48:00I think that's altogether possible. My only concern is, and again, that's from principally working in the shadows, as opposed to, say, James and guys in the Bureau, is that when you have a cool 1-800-FBI, the likelihood of someone who may be connected to the individual or individual's responsible for Nancy's disappearance may feel a little suspicious about calling that line in the event that they could be captured or they could be identified through that process, even though there may be assurances that they wouldn't be. But we're trying to figure out whether there's something to glean from the chosen states, right?

48:39That Arizona, Texas, Houston, and New Mexico. Did I say California? Yeah, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and California, and in particular, a concentration around Houston could be interesting news. I don't know. And like the thing about the eyebrows, James, You know, we all talked about that. He does look like he has especially groomed eyebrows, Nancy's perp. Though, we've also been debating whether it just looks like that because the ski mask may be cutting off the top bushier half that most men would have. You know, most men don't have perfectly groomed eyebrows like this guy appears to, but it could just be they're kind of sliced off by the mask.

49:17Yeah, I remember when I was first with you, I thought it might be a woman just based on the eyebrows. But I think Jennifer is making a good point there. And, you know, the other thing I just wanted to comment on was that I've seen two stories now, the one you just showed about the billboards, which is called this 1-800, you know, general FBI number. And then there was an article in the New York Post this morning about FBI agents, you know, re-canvassing the neighborhood, asking about two particular days. And what I'm not seeing here is any mention of task force. I'm not seeing any mention of Pima County.

49:49So you would believe that the FBI alone is working this case, which we know is not the truth. So what is happening? Is the FBI getting information? Pima County is getting information. And then how are we getting this together as a symbiotic or, you know, a task force type of investigation? To me, it still seems bifurcated. It seems like the FBI is over here doing something and Pima County is over here doing something. And I don't like to see that at all. I would have loved to have seen that, hey, the task force was here, the Nancy Guthrie task force made up of Pima County, FBI, even Arizona State Police.

50:24But I'm not seeing any of that. So, you know, I think it's interesting. Well, what do you make of the fact that the sheriff was out there, Will, a couple days ago saying he thinks he knows the motive in the case and that he's had a strong suspicion about it from the beginning and there's absolutely nothing that's steered him off of that suspicion? What? What is it? Like, why wouldn't you be sharing that? To be honest, the sheriff is beyond comprehension in my book right now, Megan. I mean, anything that comes out of his mouth is drivel as far as I'm concerned, and there is no substance of credibility.

50:58So it's just white noise running in the background. But to go back to your original question, which was about these billboards being put into particular areas, having worked a lot in Latin America and certainly working on missing persons and kidnapping cases, The one thing I do know is in Latin communities, they can be a very close-knit community. Yes, they can be, for example, in Islamic communities in the Middle East. They can be very close-knit. They don't necessarily want to share information with the wider populace. They may know and they certainly tend to know a little bit about each other's business.

51:32So those locating of those billboards could be very relevant to specific ethnicities and specific communities. But again, there is a suspicion of law enforcement. There's a suspicion of federal agencies. There's a suspicion of the government, which may in itself be counterproductive, although it's a great gesture. Sometimes it can be better to try and disguise these things in a different way, make it slightly less confrontational to invite people to communicate. Okay. What do you make, Will, of the fact that there's no, sorry, quick point, that there's no picture of the perpetrator on the billboards?

52:08Like, there's a picture of Nancy. Like, okay, great. But, like, aren't we actually trying to find somebody who might recognize that guy? I realize it's not exactly like a high school graduation photo. But there is a decent image of him from the video released by the FBI. And it's not on the billboards. Absolutely. I mean, and again, who's serving the purpose here? It's a huge, huge sign. Why isn't there a full-length picture showing his physique, or as far as we can deduct his physique, from what he was wearing, the face, the eyes, even the weapon that he was wearing, and the holster that he had that weapon contained within?

52:45You know, there's a lot of information about the perpetrator. I mean, in the same way as people will issue, or law enforcement agencies will issue, photo fits, you know, and impressionist drawings of suspects. Again, anybody worth their soul, If they want to know what Nancy Guthrie looks like, then absolutely, yes, it could be useful to have that picture if she may have been seen with other parties. But why not have both? Yeah, because the odds of this perpetrator, if Nancy is still alive, parading her around in public are probably very slim. But this man is going to have to be out and about. And we presume is out and about right now, walking around living his life.

53:23And somebody knows him. Somebody knows him. But not everybody even knows that Nancy Guthrie was kidnapped. You know, Jennifer was pointing out, remember there was that pizza delivery guy who showed up to deliver a pizza to one of the independent journalists who was on site, courtesy of like, I think, a viewer, who seemed totally unaware. He was walking right into a crime scene. You know, he went up and was like ringing the bell on Nancy's property. He had no idea. You know, most people are not obsessed with the news. A lot of people don't ever watch the news. Those are the happy people in life.

53:53And it's very possible that they don't even know Nancy's missing. But if you put a picture, yes, okay, she could be on it. But if you put a picture of this perpetrator big on a billboard, it's tough to pull your eyes away from, even if you haven't heard about the case. James, your thoughts? Well, yeah, I think you're exactly right. And I think it's a misstep from the FBI perspective because, to me, missing person doesn't resonate as much as abducted. So if the words on the billboard were abducted and exclamation point, that would get a lot, you know, I mean, missing, right? Missing person means, okay, there's a lot of missing people, right?

54:26Well, let's say abducted. And then you're right. Let's have a picture. And you just said what all these other experts have been saying since this case started, which was what? Oh, someone knows this guy. And that's why they went up to a million dollars. Well, someone knows this guy. Well, guess what? It doesn't look like anybody knows this guy or they're not talking. And again, the reason you may not know this guy is he's not from here. He is not from this area. So that's the other thing I wanted to ask you about. I raised this in our special yesterday. Nancy Grace had on a tattoo expert, a guy who's been doing tattoos for three decades.

55:01And he said, because you can see a little bit of a tat on the perpetrator's wrist. And he took a close look at it, and there are shades of gray and black in there. And he said, in his experience, that could very well be a Mexican. It could be a Mexican gang member who, he said, they use this exact shading. Like the gray is an odd choice. And he said, I guarantee you that tattoo goes all the way up the arm. He said it actually could go all the way up the neck or possibly even to the face. And he said that is very common amongst Mexican gang members, that choice to shade and possibly even those who have been in prison.

55:42He had a lot of thoughts on it, actually. But that was the other thing that made me think of you, James, in your theory. Yeah. Again, it sounds right to me. And where's the body? Well, if they went 60 miles south, went across the border and put her somewhere, it's very, very, very difficult to find her. And that's why we don't have the body yet. How can you satisfy Will that these south of the border gang members would, why would they take her? I can buy into James's suggestion that it is a South of the Border team that have come in. Whether it was for breaking and entering, again, it depends on whether there are particular items, anything that was taken from the property in inclusion, obviously, to Nancy herself.

56:27So, but it could have been a team, and James knows this, sometimes you get professional organised crime groups, which will come across the border to conduct a snatch of an individual or to take someone for a kidnapping. My only big question here is what options have law enforcement taken to communicate with their counterparts across the border to see if there is any gang activity that they're aware of, any intelligence that they're aware of, of any particular group that might have been or could be deemed as a viable prospect to carry out an operation like this? I mean, Sheriff now says that he has good contacts down there, which I would imagine because he's, you know, Tucson's an hour from the border.

57:06But I mean, I get the skepticism because in those other cases we were showing, Patrick Mahomes was targeted by these gangs reportedly about a year ago, along with another football player, I think. Joe Burrow. Okay, there you go. But nobody ever got stolen, right? So it's like they're looking to steal your high-end goods, not you. Let me, if I could, Megan, just real quick go into that. And it is a very, very difficult thing for us to mentally try to understand the activity of these individuals. OK, you, me, Will, we would not break into someone's house at two in the morning. Right. Because we just aren't that way.

57:48But these folks do. And so when we start to take our rational brain and try to put it into what what are they thinking? It's a very difficult thing. I worked a case in Nebraska as an FBI agent where a guy from South America. He shot and killed seven people in a bank. He didn't take a penny. He didn't steal a dime. And when I asked him why, he said, because I could. Okay. Now, I can't even fathom shooting seven people for no reason, but he did. Right. And so it's very, very difficult for us to try to put our brain into their brain. Oh, why do you take the body? Well, it's hard for you to understand that because you've never been there.

58:26Right. They do things that will boggle the mind. Right. And it's very, very hard for us to mentally go there. That's just my experience. My mom, she spent her career helping veterans at the VA in behavioral health, mental health. She would always say, I cannot respond to irrational behavior rationally. That's exactly right. That's exactly what you're saying. We're kind of playing a fool's game here because, yeah, we would not be putting on the outfit and the backpack and breaking into somebody's house in the middle of the night, never mind kidnapping a woman. I want to play you guys a soundbite that Chad Ayers said, something he said on our show on episode two.

59:07He broke some news here about this case and that he'd heard from, I'm presuming, a law enforcement source that he said is very solid on the ground in Arizona. Listen here. As of about two hours ago, Megan, I can report from a very, very reliable source that is boots on the ground there that the FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Office have no leads, no solid suspects. What? And this is from someone boots on the ground that I trust. All right. They have no solid leads. I can also report that it has been confirmed this morning, and I'm sure we all assume this, that every family member passed polygraphs with flying colors.

59:56The FBI has no suspects. So he did want to clarify that it wasn't no leads. It was no suspects. no suspects, and that the family not only passed polygraphs, but with flying colors, which we released this clip early because we wanted to get the news out there. And many, many people chimed in saying that doesn't mean anything, right? Like you can't admit the polygraphs in a court of law. I'm kind of persuaded by it because just the thought, let's take the brother-in-law, for example, because there's been speculation about him. The thought that this guy in a band and a part-time middle school teacher was able to beat the polygraph seems ridiculous to me.

1:00:38So if he passed that thing with flying colors, I'm much more inclined to say, let's move on from the brother-in-law. But you tell me, James, because you've had a career in law enforcement and I haven't. Yeah, well, a couple things. Conclusive and inconclusive. Any polygrapher, an examiner is what they call them, a polygrapher, is going to tell you that you're conclusive or you're inconclusive. There is no such thing as, quote, pass with flying colors, end quote. That doesn't happen, okay? That means someone is conclusive, meaning they're telling, the machine is indicating that their answers are conclusive.

1:01:13Then there's inconclusive, meaning they're not sure. Okay, so that's that. And then the second thing is that maybe they don't have anything, but as close to the vest as Sheriff Nanos, we have a story, I think you reported it or I read it, that Sheriff Sheriff Nanos and two of his top deputies are the controlling people of this case, not the investigator. Well, if they're making all the calls, that would make sense to me while Chad is hearing from law enforcement sources down way down the totem pole that they have no leads because they don't know anything because they're being kept at an arm's length.

1:01:47That's, you know, that's my inference from from what he's saying. Either they don't really have anything or Sheriff Nanos and his two handpicked guys are not telling a soul. Mm-hmm. And if it is Sheriff Nano's controlling the information, then you have to at least put an asterisk after the polygraph information because he clearly, I mean, in my view, was leaned on by the Guthries to say the family's exonerated, they're not suspects. And then when everybody said, how can you say they're exonerated when you don't have anybody under arrest? He then took steps back from that and said, well, they're not active suspects at this time.

1:02:24It was like, all right, well, which is it, right? So I don't know. But what do you make of that bit of a scoop there? A scooplet, as we call it in the news. I mean, to me, it seems, I mean, I agree with James entirely on this, that there's a huge compartmentalization. We've seen this from the outset. And Sheriff Nanos giving everything to himself, wanting to use his own DNA testing labs. You know, all those, Susanna has obviously vouched for them and said they're very, very good and they can do the job. But it's point scoring that we're seeing by Sheriff Nanos right now. And I think this issue of substantive leads that he has right now, again, until such time as he breaks cover and actually tells us what those are, Megan, it means absolutely nothing.

1:03:10And the danger that we've seen historically, like you said, about the brother-in-law being released, that there's big question marks over the integrity of the information that Sheriff Nanos is sharing and the false hopes that he's potentially sharing in the same way as he says, we're gonna solve this case. He can't say that with any resolute conviction. So we still have no faith in the sheriff, but one of our guests was pointing out, you know, are we just being impatient, right? Because we're still, it's like, we're not even 50 days into the case. And a lot of these big murder cases take months and months and months and sometimes over a year to solve.

1:03:53Like Maureen really believes that he probably knows who he thinks it is, and she believes he's building a cage around this person, you know, bit by bit, like evidence and evidence, but it takes time. So how do you like that theory, or do you think, James, he's as clueless as he looks? No, I don't know him. And, you know, Maureen, if she believes that, that very well could be happening. And it's methodical. But again, that's a murder investigation. I thought we started out with an abduction, missing person, kidnapping, live body situation, which is, again, like I've talked about, there's there's a lot more speed.

1:04:34There's a lot more attention. There's a lot more sense of urgency. But if we're building a case on an individual and it's going to take a long time. Yeah, OK, that that is a theory. And I certainly hope that that works out. And I certainly hope we find the perpetrator. But I don't think we're being impatient. I think that the statistics on an 84 year old woman, my friend, you know, Jim Gagliano was talking about this the other day. I think it's less than one percent of the kidnappings in America are of that age group. And so it's extremely rare. And that's why we're all kind of looking like, where is she?

1:05:10Where is this person? This is not the norm. And I don't think we're being impatient at all. And last thing I would like to say is, and I know I probably shouldn't do this, but sometimes if you look at the comments of people who either watch your show or, you know, on some social media that I'm on, you know, they'll say things like, why do we care? This story is being dragged out. Well, we care because we all have mothers and we all have 84 year old. You know, a lot of us have mothers of that age group. But we don't want to live in a country where an 84 year old can just be taken and no body, no leads, no nothing.

1:05:47This is America. That's the story is like that could happen to my mother or your mother. And first of all, it's callous as hell to say that. The people will say, why do we care? Well, that's why we care. because I want to live in a country where an 84-year-old isn't taken from her bed at 2 in the morning and we can't find her body. Yes. Thank you for saying that. I feel the same. We've done a lot of work on the case of missing baby Lisa Irwin, who was taken from her crib at 10 months old out of Kansas City, Missouri. And it's just she vanished into thin air. She was never seen again. No leads.

1:06:21Didn't track anybody down. All this time later still missing. She could still be out there. There was never a body found. There was never a perp. Same thing, right, Will? It's like, no, we can't live in a society where an 84-year-old is stolen out of her bed, where a 10-month-old is stolen out of her bed. And the Lisa Irwin case, forgive me for putting it this way, but at least it made some sense. A baby is valuable in terms of commercial sales. I'm sad to say, but you could sell a baby on the black market. An 84-year-old, you cannot sell. So this one is even more mysterious. Yeah, absolutely.

1:06:55And I think also where your show is doing a huge service to this particular case is, and I'm sure James will agree with me and probably most of your other guests that you've had on, is the distinct difference between what one sees on TV, on Netflix, of crime thrillers and everything else which gets solved literally within one hour's episode, to the reality of what actually goes on, the complications, the complexities of these cases, the various different strands, tenuous or otherwise, of evidence that then have to be sifted through. This is, you're, I think, showing a perfect profile of how a case like this, which is most unusual and could potentially to happen to any one of us, would be potentially conducted.

1:07:40What are the considerations that are being made? So I think this sort of forensic analysis that you're doing, Megan, on this, I think people should actually pay attention to to actually see what the reality is really like. Well, we're lucky to have guys like you who actually know what they're talking about. One last thing I want to hit on, and that is tomorrow we're going to have on Ashley Banfield and talk about where her reporting is right now in all of this. But one of the things she's been focused on is Annie Guthrie's car. We first learned from Ashley the first week that Nancy was missing that the authorities had impounded, towed, whatever, Annie and Tommaso's car.

1:08:19This is Savannah's sister and brother-in-law. The car was just returned this past weekend. We're talking six weeks that they've had her car impounded. Other cars were taken and returned already from other people. So like well in advance of this. So what does it tell you, if anything? I think that makes sense that they would have it longer. They probably went much deeper with that with regards to any type of evidence collection with all kinds of different tools that, you know, not only Pima County, but the FBI might be recommending. And therefore, that equipment may be hard to find. and it takes a while to get it there.

1:08:57I'm not terribly surprised by the length that they held onto it. They want to make sure, and that makes sense to me. Why they gave up the other vehicles that quick, I'm with you. I don't know. I don't know why these people were let go or even taken in or detained. The sheriff would understand that. But I don't make a lot of it being a long period of time. I think it was just further testing, and that takes a while. And they wanted to make sure they got as much as they possibly could from the vehicle before they returned it. Okay, so that one doesn't jump out at you. To me, that seems like a long time, but I don't know what they do.

1:09:32And like you point out, it was the thing that Nancy was last seen in. Yeah. I mean, it's a bit like phone forensics, for example. It can be done actually relatively quickly. If it's done in the private sector, you could turn it around within one day, but it's not uncommon for law enforcement to hang on to people's devices to do the forensic imaging on them. And it could take weeks, sometimes months. Okay. Well, we don't know what direction they're going in. All we know is Sheriff Nanos is now saying he believes he has a motive and that whatever's happened since day one has confirmed his early suspicions about who likely did this.

1:10:11Whether he will share that with us remains to be seen. If you are looking to make smarter choices for your health this year, consider Riverbend Ranch. Their steaks are not only delicious, they also contain real, high-quality protein that helps fuel your body. Beef is a complete protein. It contains all nine essential amino acids your body needs to function. It also keeps you fuller for longer, reducing cravings and snacking. But here's the key. Not all beef is created equal. The quality of the beef depends entirely on how it's raised and where it comes from. And that's where Riverbend Ranch stands apart.

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1:11:19Great being with you. Thank you, Megan. Thanks. And thanks to all of you for listening. Tomorrow, as promised, in part four of our series, Ashley Banfield will be here. She's been all over the story from day one. Where does she think the investigation is going? She'll be here to tell us. You won't want to miss that. Thanks to all of you for being with us, too. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

1:11:48what's up sports fans i'm rachel demita here to tell you about my show courtside club if you love hoops and hot takes then you're in the right place want to hear about caitlin clark's unstoppable rise in the wnba how stars like wendy and luka donchich are dominating the nba or maybe you just want the tea on this week's most viral sports moments don't worry we'll keep We'll keep you updated on all of it. So grab your popcorn and come hang with us. Courtside. You can listen to Courtside Club wherever you get your podcasts. Ooh-wee-a-na. Your phone is your lifeline. Calling your kid to say goodnight, waiting on a job callback, or just sending a meme to your best friend when it's been that kind of day.

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