Latest Arrest Connected to Karmelo Anthony Case, Nowak Prosecutors Appeal Digwa’s Lenient Sentence, New Developments in Nancy Guthrie Case | Ep. 1348

32:40I mean, physically beaten, not beaten in the sports lingo, without calling the fouls because they can't stand her. Pretty much everyone hates Caitlin Clark in this league. She maybe have a couple of friends, but everyone hates her. and you know there are real questions about why is it just normal professional jealousy is it a race thing is it a sexuality thing because 74 percent of the league according to some reporters are um well first black and then some huge portion of them are also gay why does it why do they have to be gay why are there so many soccer players gay and why are so many basketball players gay with the women i'm saying like i don't i don't get it it's like whatever but in any event they hate her Now, Caitlin, back to this game in which she got the punch to the throat, she ultimately walked out of the game.

33:32Like before it was over, I think it was third quarter. And they said nothing, like the announcers weren't talking about it. It was like the biggest player in the league just walked off in the middle of the game. And then they kind of came back up and they were like, oh, it's a back injury. And Jason Whitlock says, if you believe that, you haven't been paying attention because there is a dynamic that caused Caitlin Clark to walk off of the court that day. And it had, in his opinion, nothing to do with her back. Okay, take it away, my friend. So let me, there's a bunch of things you said. Let's, the closeout play where the woman is contesting Caitlin's shot.

34:15There was a foul called on that and Caitlin went to the line and shot three free throws. What they didn't review is whether that was a reckless closeout, which would have required an additional free throws. But there is a foul. That's why Caitlin Clark went to the free throw line and shot three free throws. As it relates to the poster, you covered that pretty well in terms of potential licensing issue. But what is left out of that is like, hey, the WNBA is controlled by this Marxist mindset that, hey, everybody should get something. And, you know, we got to share things equitably, equally, blah, blah, blah.

35:02And so Diana Taurasi is widely considered the greatest WNBA player of all time. She's white. She's not on the poster either. and so caitlin clark not being on the poster and this is celebrating 30 years of the wnba and there's old players on there there's current players on there the whole nine years the greatest player arguably in wnba history also isn't on the poster and so there may have been a licensing issue with diana tarrasi or it may have just been this stupidity of hey you know let's leave Taurasi, let's leave Sue Bird's not on there, let's leave Caitlin off, and let's showcase these other people because that's what's equitable.

35:48And so that's the lunacy. Instead of doing what's best for business, hey, let's put Caitlin Clark on here. She's got the biggest fan base. They'll be more likely to buy the poster. So those are the first two things I just wanted to add a little clarity to as it relates to the foul on Caitlin Clark, the fist to the neck area. You put it down in slow motion. You put a still photo up and it looks like the worst thing in the world. When you watch it in real time, if you play Caitlin's reaction and how quickly she got up And when she goes back down court and you look at her and look at her facial expressions and body movement, this thing's being exaggerated.

36:37And I'll make a very provocative analogy. It's being exaggerated the same way Derek Chauvin on top of George Floyd, greatly exaggerated. Derek Chauvin weighed 150 pounds. It had nothing to do with George Floyd dying. now Alyssa Thomas the player that did do that she's a bona fide thug there's no there's all kinds of video throughout her career of her being ridiculously physical with her opponents whether black or white she's a rugby she does seem like a bona fide thug just my own research I know nothing about the WNBA but just my own research showed like three examples where team coaches were going jihad on her.

37:24Like, what the F with this player who's actively hurting multiple women in the WNBA? She's got a foul on Angel Reese that's much worse than the Kaitlin Clark foul, just for clarity. But she's a rugby player. She's unskilled. Her game is bullying and intimidating everybody, and that's how she gets buckets, and that's how she's an effective player. The Phoenix Mercury, because of Alyssa Thomas, whose wife is on the Phoenix Mercury as well, named Dawana Bonner. And Dawana Bonner played briefly last year for the Indiana Fever and left and quit and basically forced her way onto the Phoenix team so she could be with her wife, Alyssa Thomas.

38:13Well, they do have a problem with the Indiana Fever, and they do think that intimidating Kaitlyn Clark, trying to intimidate. There's a white girl on the team named Lexi Hole. They try to intimidate her and they play physical with her. All of this is par for the course for Alyssa Thomas and DeWanna Bonner and the type of thug ball that they play with everybody in the WNBA. So as it relates to, does Caitlin Clark get treated unfairly in the WNBA? Yes, she did. her first two years, her rookie year and last year, these players had a real problem with her and they were extra physical with her. And the league addressed it this offseason, implementing new rules about freedom of movement.

39:04And so the games are ref completely different and the players, for the most part, are completely different because they got a new collective bargaining agreement that is paying them six to ten times more than they were ever making in the WNBA. And so the animus around Kaitlyn Clark has dissipated this season. Other than the Phoenix. They finally realize she's getting them paid. Yes. And so other than the Phoenix Mercury, no one has really messed with Kaitlyn Clark that way. Players that I saw that used to be extra aggressive with her, They're now joking with her before the game, even during the game.

39:47It's all dissipated. But most people have the old narrative from 24 and 25, and they're applying it to what they just saw here. And they're also ignoring or they're unaware because most people are passive watchers of the WNBA. They see the highlights. They're just not informed. There's a dynamic between Caitlin Clark and her head coach, Stephanie White. They've been at each other's throats now for two years. They don't like each other. She's white too. Stephanie, just for the record, is a white woman. A white woman who, like Caitlin Clark, I'm from Indiana. Stephanie White's one of the greatest high school basketball players in the history of Indiana.

40:31like Caitlin Clark she went to a home state school Purdue and lifted Purdue up the way that Caitlin Clark lifted Iowa up Stephanie White led Purdue to a national championship then was a first round pick in the WNBA didn't have a great WNBA career but then became a coach in the WNBA and has had some success in the WNBA. She failed as a college coach at Vanderbilt. She's returned to the WNBA, had a little bit of success, and previously coached this Alyssa Thomas thug and, you know, co-signed that style of basketball. The other thing about Stephanie White, like Caitlin Clark, She came out of college with a longtime boyfriend who she married and transitioned while in the WNBA to the alternative lifestyle.

41:28And she is now married to Lisa Salters, the ESPN sideline reporter, black woman. And so she's married to a black woman, Lisa Salters. And there are people like me that are following this closely. It's like they want to convert and transition Caitlin Clark and Stephanie White may be a part of that. They have similar backgrounds. You know, they were because Stephanie White in her playing days and even now is a relatively attractive woman. And she was an attractive young athlete that had a boyfriend, got married, Same Caitlin Clark track, same deal as Caitlin Clark. And they are at odds over style of play.

42:15And if you really watch what happened Thursday, five minutes into the third quarter, Caitlin Clark had a bad play through the ball turnover. Didn't hustle back on defense and gave up an easy layup. Stephanie White hops out of her chair and angrily calls a timeout. the coaches go and huddle the players are sitting on the bench and there's fans have sent me videos of like I was in the arena here's what happened you can see it for yourself that Caitlin Clark is sitting on the bench with the other five players that are in the game and she's planning to go back into the game Stephanie White eventually comes into the huddle points at the backup point guard Raven Johnson and replaces Caitlin Clark five minutes into the third quarter.

43:10This is like, you don't do this to your best player. You don't do this to virtually any starter. We're only five minutes into the third. Why am I getting pulled out? And Caitlin Clark, you can see by her body language, there's no, uh, there's no her talking to a trainer about my back. There's no informing. She's not wincing. She's not holding back. She's not like bending over the way we all would. You know, everyone's had a little back pain here or there. There's Caitlin Clark in the home. She's standing there. And when she walks. She looks fine. Yes. And when she walks away, it looks like, it looks like, but it's not accurate.

43:46Two trainers are following her when she walks away. But if this is the right video, you'll see the trainers, like the woman with the ponytail. Yep. She circles and takes a seat behind the bench. She does not continue to follow Kaitlyn Clark. So Kaitlyn Clark, the best player in the league, the biggest draw in the league, allegedly has a back injury, but she's getting no attention from the trainers. She's just walking back into the arena. And then for the next 12 minutes of real time, not game time, but just real time, the broadcast crew never addresses, where is Kaitlyn Clark? she's not on the bench she's not on the court they're not and and Megan you and I know that 12 minutes of tv time might as well be 12 hours you don't leave some issue unaddressed for 12 minutes and why people they're playing the game you're giving the the audience no explanation the biggest star the reason why you're watching the game has disappeared and we're not telling you that she's disappeared we're not trying to even attempt to find out why she's disappeared someone had clearly told the broadcast team we don't know why caitlin clark has disappeared we don't want you to address it and so it wasn't really until the start of the fourth quarter that they came out with this weak explanation of caitlin clark won't return it's a back injury and then they show an edited video of caitlin leaving and and paint you can see her grimace You can't see her grimace.

45:24They're just lying. And so the story. Bottom line for us. Like what? So why? Like to me, you're telling me she had a hissy fit and took her ball and went home because she wasn't getting played. Like this is an example of Caitlin behaving like a spoiled brat. Yes, because she is. And most players with her talent are most players with her talent and success. and what she did in Iowa, and it has to be coached out of them. And that is where I'll defend Stephanie White to some degree. She's trying to coach the brattiness out of Kaitlin Clark. Kaitlin loves to cheerlead on the court. She loves to tell the crowd what to do, and she loves to tell the officials what to do.

46:13And this has been going on since high school and college. her dad would be at Iowa games and they show him on camera telling Caitlin hey shut up and you know mind her own this is just part of a personality quirk that Caitlin Clark has doesn't make her the worst person in the world it makes her a person that needs some correction and she's getting it from someone she doesn't respect Stephanie White they're at each other's throats and Caitlin Clark walked out she'd had enough walked off and you know bad explanation they eventually concoct after 12 minutes of trying to figure out what to say uh but no one wants to talk about that dynamic because they just want to talk about Alyssa Thomas and Caitlin you know stabbed her these or these hens like it's like okay a lot of drama with these ladies it's a little much for me but you convinced me because on one of your shows uh earlier in june you showed the moment it was after a june 10th game we pulled it from these are clips we got from you and your show um june 8th sorry there was a game and first i'm going to do what you did which is show caitlin clark's game winning shot um which was over the washington mystics thanks to the shot they won.

47:36Here, let's watch it. Here we go. She's running. There we go. She's got the ball. It's a three. It goes in. It's beautiful. They win. Okay. So this should be a huge moment. Doesn't look that huge. She's kind of walking around. All right. Doesn't exactly look like, you know, when the Knicks won. And then you found this video of her walking by her coach, Stephanie White, which you would expect them both to be jubilant. But here's what's happening. She walks by. It's a low it's a low high five. She barely she doesn't know. I look at her. No eye contact from either one. Yeah, that's that's pretty good evidence, I would say that that they don't they don't like each other.

48:21There's another incident you showed where then so that Caitlin got, they called a foul on Caitlin that you showed and you said it was a bullshit call. Caitlin actually didn't foul anybody. It was like, they shouldn't have called this. And then Stephanie White, the coach, got interviewed at halftime in the spot where we would have expected Caitlin Clark to be giving the interview, you pointed out on your show. So it's kind of odd that the coach took over the interview, but okay, so what does she do? Does she say that was a bullshit call? Caitlin did nothing wrong. These refs are out of control.

48:56No, this is what she says in SOT 19. Fouls are frustrating. What are you going to tell your group just to adjust to that this next half but not lose their physicality? We've got to be disciplined. We've got to be more disciplined. I mean, we're fouling when it's unnecessary because we're in poor position to start. So she basically threw her under the bus, Jason. So why doesn't she like Caitlin? Backing up. They are, look, I'm sorry for saying this, Megan. They're women. They don't support each other. And they compete with each other. They compete with each other. And so Stephanie White was Caitlin Clark 20 some odd years ago.

49:37And again, she was the hometown hero. And there's some jealousy. And look, there's a player that Stephanie White can't get to submit to her style of play. And that's where Caitlin Clark is right, that Stephanie White's style of play doesn't work for Caitlin Clark. It's not the right style. And Caitlin Clark won't buy in. And so they just dislike each other, and they're competing with each other. And Stephanie White thinks, look, you know, I could have been you or I was you. And I know what you should do. And Caitlin Clark's like, not with that stupid style of play you're talking about. And, you know, Lisa, I'm sure Caitlin thinks Lisa Bluter was a better coach than her.

50:27And they just the Indiana Fever have surrounded Caitlin Clark with the wrong people, including the head coach. They haven't managed a superstar. It's like there was a very, very beautiful, young, smart lady that was on this news station that she was a superstar. And they just didn't know how to manage her at Fox News. And she had to go independent to really, really succeed. Fox? And. Fox did okay. I'm not sure about the next place. Well, all right. NBC. They just didn't know how to manage her. And she had to go independent. I'm sure you can relate to that. You've heard that story before, haven't you?

51:12Yeah, I will say it's a lot easier to go independent as a news anchor than I think it is as a basketball player. But that's the business she's chosen. So good luck to them all. Honestly, these are some of the reasons why I don't watch the WNBA. I don't really watch any sports. But I do watch Jason Whitlock. And all of you should, too. Because honestly, your breakdowns of these games have been so entertaining. I'm here for it. Thank you, my friend. Great to see you. Thank you. All right. Up next, what CBS News is now reporting about who the first ransom note in the Nancy Guthrie case was addressed to.

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53:49We're going to get into the latest on the Nancy Guthrie investigation in just a moment, but we have got breaking news out of the UK and the Henry Novak case that we have got to show you. A jury last month found Vikram Digwa guilty of murdering 18-year-old Henry. He was sentenced to life in prison with a minimum of 21 years that must be served. Now, prosecutors are appealing that, saying the sentence is too lenient. I mean, it's very rare for prosecutors to have to appeal saying the sentence is too lenient, but they're doing that here because while a life sentence sounds real, the 21 year minimum is concerning.

54:28And they're apparently concerned that it actually will be all he serves, which would clearly not be enough for what this guy did. This is because Digwa clearly lied about Novak racially attacking him. He let him die and bleed out on the street, saying to police that Henry had attacked him based on his race, the fact that he's a Sikh, and Henry was bleeding out steps away. He let that happen. He tried to hide from authorities that he was the one who had stabbed Henry in their fatal encounter over and over and over again, as Henry had tried to run away from this maniac and was getting stabbed in the back of the legs.

55:14Now, we've detailed many of Digwa's lies about the case on the show previously. We've even showed you all the falsehoods that his brother made in his 999 call. That's the UK's version of 911. We have real questions about why the brother is not under arrest. Seriously. But now we have Digwa himself, the actual murderer on tape in police body cam footage that has just been obtained by the BBC and put out on their website. This is Vikram Digwa, the one who had repeatedly stabbed Henry. Well, as you watch this, you keep that in mind. He had just repeatedly stabbed him. Here he is directly telling the police that Henry Novak racially attacked him, which is a lie.

55:58Again, zero, zero proof of that. As Henry is steps away receiving CPR. Watch. When that's on the floor with my son. and I'm there like, look mate, don't record me. Don't want to grab my plate. He's like, push my turban off my head, started grabbing my ankle and hair, so I'm a seat, obviously, and he started grabbing on my hair, started dragging me around, and obviously from there, then obviously altercations happen. My brother's only seen it, stopped it, and that's when he then started stumbling around, started climbing around, all these sort of bits and bobs and stuff like that. So, literally, I saw him from there, from the get-go from there, I saw, look, mate, you clearly are, obviously, drunk.

56:35I said to him, carry on with your day. He said that, and then he started, I would just escalate in the situation, call me a and all this sort of stuff. And this isn't the first time we've had something like this happening. Again, we've lived here for since I've been four or five. OK, so that's him saying he grabbed me by the turban. I said, you're clearly drunk. By the way, Henry wasn't. And then he called me and they bleeped it out there. But it was it's the I guess I guess it's just as offensive in the UK as the N word is over here. P.A.K.I. and he said that's what he was called by Henry, a lie, lies, all lies.

57:12He didn't grab you by the turban. He wasn't drunk and he didn't call you that word. I said, like, these are all lies. In the next clip, Digwa finds time to complain about the police lights, which he finds slightly irritating to his eyes and declines to tell the authorities that Henry Novak is bleeding out at this very moment because the CPR is not going to save him. You see, he's bleeding to death internally because you stabbed him. Watch this. Especially in that moment.

57:44Should you turn the flashes off? Sorry. We can't remember the fright. Is there a way to move over here then? So there's not too much in my eyesight. So this is when he got me in the face of fair few good times as well. Where do you live, sir?

58:00Okay, so you've had an altercation with this guy? Yeah.

58:08This isn't the first time we've had altercations during, not even altercations, we've had people racially attack us during the morning. Okay. My hair started grabbing my hair or started punching me and all this sort of stuff. Okay. Do you know how he's got that wound then? How's he got that wound? Well, you said he's got blood on him. How's he? He must have been where he punched him, but he did fall over here. So he was climbing all over these bins and stuff like that. And then he's called fell over and then landed onto that car. Okay. So must've been when we punched him. That's why he's bleeding.

58:40He knows full. Well, he has stabbed him five times. He, he stabbed him. He's bleeding to death. The time codes would later show us that Henry had stopped breathing 13 minutes prior to that. He, he's dying he's possibly dead and here he's still misleading the police officer here we see the police officer telling digua he's going to be arrested oh and by the way before i move on in that clip also you heard digua going on about how he's been multiply he's been he's been attacked multiple times racial attacks multiple times um this is where he got me in the face several times playing the victim we've been we've had racial attacks before he goes on Sure.

59:24Sure you have. You've been perpetrating them. Because there's absolutely no reason to this moment to understand why you attacked and killed Henry Novak. Other than possibly his race and your own grievance. Again, all lies. But hook, line and sinker by the police as Henry lay dying. Here we're going to see the officer telling Digwa that he's going to be arrested on suspicion of attempted murder. But notice one thing. Digwa, not handcuffed. Watch. Okay mate, right, this is really important Okay The time now is 11.55 Okay, it's important mate At this time, I'm arresting you on suspicion of a tent murder Do you not have to say anything?

1:00:09May harm your defence, if you don't mention me in question Something you may like to rely on the court Anything you do, something you may be given evidence The necessities are for a prompt and effective investigation Okay, and for any further harm and injury You've got your side of the story, mate. We don't know what's going on here. Okay? So we need to find out. Okay?

1:00:34Starting short, what's going on here? I've gone nine for attempt murder with the gentleman that I've run through. Have we got a van at all that I can get him down to Central?

1:00:48yeah and indeed it would be actual murder not attempted because henry died and as the video ends digua again repeats the lie that novak racially attacked him watch okay and we'll get it all sorted all right i'm not saying you've done anything mate but we need to find out what's happened okay i've been i know i know okay i know we don't know what's going on He's the video captions read. He does not finish his sentence. The police officer, he's he's about to give an update on Henry. And based on the BBC's reporting, we we now know it took police eight minutes to find Henry stab wounds. Just one of them.

1:01:33The one into his lung took them eight minutes. they reportedly took off his clothing once they realized that there could be and obviously had been catastrophic injuries and were apparently shocked shocked to see him bleeding out um it's all because they believed this man and his brother and their false claims from the moment they arrived on scene and while they found and there was testimony that the police really couldn't have done anything to save Henry. He was too catastrophically injured. So even if they had noticed that he'd been bleeding out and that he'd been repeatedly stabbed from the second they got there, that they probably couldn't have saved his life.

1:02:18I guess we'll never know. Moreover, what happened in Henry's last moments was he was treated like a criminal. He was handcuffed. He was dismissed. His complaints that he'd been stabbed were ignored and argued with and overruled by that same police officer. We heard talking to Vikram Digwa, his murderer. So he was ignored. He wasn't believed. He was in clear distress. It was overlooked. And Vikram Digwa was believed hook, line and sinker. Everything he said was believed. It was accepted until Henry died. And then they started to reevaluate and ultimately had to arrest him without even putting cuffs on him because, you know, he was a racial minority.

1:03:04That's what it came down to. They in the UK have been operating under these principles for quite some time. For quite some time. We've covered the rapes of the young girls there, the white girls for the most part by Muslim immigrants. Didn't pay any attention to it. In fact, actively worked to cover it up for years because of skin color, because of racial sensitivities, possibly religious sensitivities. It's absurd. Crime is crime. It can be done by either race, any race against another. And these these cops in the UK walked right into this thing, primed to believe the Vikram Digwas of the world and to see the Henry Novaks as the bad guys.

1:03:50I don't even know what it's going to take to revisit this, to eliminate this. It's Henry's death and the embarrassment they faced, it's not enough. They're not going to change. This is a sick ideological perversion of the mind that we need a whole new generation to come into policing in the UK and replace these people. because this is just, it's too dangerous right now for young white men in particular. And that tape is embarrassing. It's yet another black eye for the police and the system that allowed this. And I agree with them, the prosecutors, they should pursue that 21 year minimum because it should be much, much higher.

1:04:36That guy and his brother and the mother, let's not forget she hid the murder knife and she was found guilty of doing that too. So, I mean, it's a criminal family. that's been getting away with their lies over and over again. Who knows how many other people they've hurt? I'd really, I'd love, somebody should be doing a deep dive on that in the UK press right now. What other cases have they been involved in? Have they brought any civil suits? What has their story been? I'd love to know because they seem to be pathological to me. Poor Henry and poor Henry's family. At last, the truth is known. The body cams show exactly how negligent the police were and how biased they were.

1:05:19And, you know, it's it's not unlike what we talked about with Jason Whitlock. Like it's some sort of a sickness. It's like a mind sickness around the issue of race and minority, you know. And my only question is, as, you know, whites head into the minority, because we will be in the UK and here in the next 15 years or so. Is it going to work the other way? Is there going to be a benefit of the doubt you get when the minority is white and you happen to be a white person? Somehow I doubt it. By the way, speaking of our talk with Jason, it just broke that Caitlin Clark is not going to play this Saturday, saying that her back injury is still preventing her from being out there.

1:06:04Is it her back injury or is it her quiet punishment from her coach for quitting the game, as Jason theorizes? No proof of that, just his opinion. But she didn't look like she was in a lot of pain in that one video. In any event, that's the update from the UK. We're going to take a quick break. We're going to come back and we're going to talk about the latest in the Nancy Guthrie case because we just found out that Harvey Levin just got another note from the man who claims he knows who the kidnapper is and has an update on how he can prove it. You might already own a firearm, but what if you could start with less lethal methods to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of pulling the trigger of a loaded gun?

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1:08:07There are several breaking updates in the search for Nancy Guthrie today. TMZ's Harvey Levin getting a new email from the person who claims he knows the identities of Nancy's abductors. OK, this is this person confusing, but just say with me. there were two so-called ransom notes by the person the FBI apparently reportedly claims was the real abductor that went first to Harvey Levin at well to TMZ and a bunch of local Tucson news stations. That was right after Nancy was taken the first week. The second week after Nancy was taken, Harvey Levin at TMZ started to receive other emails from some dude, which is called him the friend of the kidnapper.

1:08:55This is just made up. We have no idea whether he knows the actual kidnapper or not, or whether they're friends. It's just a good short form. The friend of the kidnapper saying, I know who has her, suggesting it was multiple, two people, suggesting, though not explicitly, that it may have been south of the border, that they had her, and suggesting he had seen her. Virtually everybody we've had on thinks that that guy is bullshit, and many, if not most, think that the first notes are bullshit too. But they appear, though it's not confirmed, this is also not unknown, that they appear to be different people writing the notes.

1:09:34The first two notes, 100 % are connected, you know, demanding ransom. And then we heard earlier this week, the second one was more like, she died, sorry. Those two definitely included the same identifying information and reportedly the same Bitcoin address account because the authorities were satisfied it was the same person. And this new guy, he keeps asking for Bitcoin to reveal his information too and continues to put the same Bitcoin account in all of his correspondence. Although Harvey says in this latest one, he changed the Bitcoin demand or the the account, but made a reference to the one he'd been using just to prove it was the same guy.

1:10:18Now, this guy, this time, the friend of the kidnapper, is claiming that he has footage of Nancy and the main kidnapper. Again, intimating that there's more than one. He's got actual video footage of Nancy. Okay. Plus CBS News, in a separate matter, is now also reporting that the first ransom note ever sent in this case was addressed directly to Savannah. Now that's the first we've heard that. Remember that came in again, as I said, to TMZ and also to local news stations and had demands. They haven't said a lot about that one specifically because that that's the mother load right there. That's the one.

1:10:58If this really is the real dude, this is the email that made them believe that it's the one that allegedly described what Nancy was wearing. described the location of her phone, sorry, her Apple watch. And also, what's the third thing? Described the floodlight on the outside, the broken floodlight on the outside of the home. And now this is the first we've heard that that note was sent directly. It was addressed directly to Savannah, CBS News reporting. Do we have that actually? Yeah, here it is. Here's CBS Evening News reporter Jonathan Vigliotti reporting this. Stop 51. The note was the second of two that investigators believe were sent by the same person in the days following Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, February 1st.

1:11:51Sources tell CBS News the first note was written directly to Savannah, reading in part, Hello, Savannah, we have your mother, Nancy. The message included a ransom demand and described the exact location of Nancy's Apple Watch inside her bedroom, a detail investigators never made public. Chilling. Joining me now, James Fitzgerald. He is a former supervisory special agent for the FBI. He's now the co-host of the Cold Red podcast. And for the first time on the show, John Kelly. John's a veteran criminal profiler and psychotherapist. His profiling expertise has been used in well-known cases, such as the Green River Killer.

1:12:29That case involved a serial killer who was convicted of murdering 48 women. He also helped contribute to the solving of the Golden State Killer in 2018, helping find a man who had committed 13 murders across the state of California. James, John, thank you both so much for being here with us today. And, John, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for having me, Megan. Thank you. Annie Kelly is a friend of mine. and you know what our cousin mr fitzgerald there he's all right that's right basically you're figuring out my whole method for how people get booked on this show maureen o 'connell i mean i've got my quiet litmus test um okay let's talk about this so james i haven't heard from you since um we learned the details of the second note okay we'll get to harvey in that news in a minute, but I want to prioritize the actual news about the possible real kidnapper.

1:13:26And I'm only saying that's not my judgment. That's just Savannah thinks those first two notes were real. And I know Savannah, she's very smart. She's a lawyer herself. And I'm telling you, there's no way Savannah thinks those two notes are real. If the FBI has told her, they don't think that they're real. Like they, they, I believe the FBI told her, we think they're probably authentic. And that's why she believes it, because I just don't think she would deviate from what the FBI is telling her. She would realize she didn't have the expertise. So and Harvey Levin is reporting that the FBI told him they believe those first two notes are real, meaning from the real abductor slash kidnapper.

1:14:04That doesn't mean they are. I'm just saying we're distinguishing between those two and all the rest. Well, what we learned earlier this week is what the second note from the so-called real abductor actually had in it. Howard Bloom had some exclusive reporting on it that set off a firestorm of reporters who had apparently known and been sitting on it to tell us what exactly was in there. The best summary I've heard is from Brianna Whitney. She now works as a crime reporter for Crime Junkie, which is a podcast. But at the time, like up until recently, she worked for the sister news outlet of KOLD, the one that received both notes.

1:14:49And she said in that capacity, she actually had eyes on both notes that she's read them both. And here is how she described the contents of the second note, which I'd love to get your thoughts on. Stop 52. I have spent months and months covering the Nancy Guthrie case, boots on the ground. and in my former role before I came to Crime Junkie, I was made aware of what these ransom notes said as I was reporting on the case. I've seen them with my own eyes so I wanna actually provide more context as to what that second note said. The way that this note was written, it's written as we, like we didn't know this as if it was some sort of team or whoever was involved in this.

1:15:28It said, we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical condition. It went on to say that they never intended to hurt her during all of this. They continued and said she perished shortly after she was taken. They believe that it was heart related. And then what the reports were confirming earlier today, that she was buried with nature. And maybe the most important part of the second ransom note, it said nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. We are truly sorry. Your thoughts, Fitz? um along with being uh first of all megan great to be back with you along with being a criminal profiler i'm also a forensic linguist and i cut my teeth on the unabomb case got my master's degree at georgetown after that so i've been dealing mostly with language uh in cases you know since the mid 90s and i've helped you know resolve a bunch of them to identify anonymous authors whatever uh and the first thing i always want to understand when looking at something like this we're using the word note you did and the reporter that you showed.

1:16:32I think what we're describing that was an email, correct? Well, all I know is that in the case of TMZ, they were uploading it on the tips website part of the team. You know, so like that was one of the ways that they were reportedly masking who they were is like you go on there and you upload it and it's unidentifiable. So I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I know the friend, the friend notes are being described by Harvey as as emails. As for the original one and two, those I don't know. All right. And the content is what we would be looking at here. But the question is, I would still want to know how they are being transmitted, how they are winding up.

1:17:17This would have been so, so easy for the kidnappers. And I use that word loosely here from day one, from night one to leave some kind of a note on the table. We have your mother. We want money. We'll call you or this Bitcoin account, whatever they would set up. You know, there are so few kidnappings for ransom in this country. I mean, legitimate kidnapping for ransom. We've been over this before, Megan. I know. But it's just so rare. Lindbergh, Frank Sinatra Jr., you know, Sidney Riso in the early 90s, Exxon executive. They are so rare. And then now we have these notes, which may be posts, which may be emails.

1:17:56And all we're getting is snippets. So it's hard for me as a forensic linguist. Back in the day when I was working cases in the Bureau, I would have the entire message, including with every case, Daniel Pearl, DC sniper. In fact, in DC sniper, I'll never forget there was a leak because some journalists had a source. And in the tarot card, they repeated the words, I am God, where I happened to see the tarot card, the actual one. It said, call me God. A big difference. It's a reference to a movie with a sniper who went by the nickname of God. power of life and death. So I want to be careful that we don't necessarily know the exact language in these notes, in these posts, in these emails, whatever they are.

1:18:38But having said all that, I am still highly skeptical of their provenance, of their validity, of their legitimacy. And I would say this, you know, the investigators would be remiss not to follow up on them, go through all the, you know, computer analysis they can do to find out where these are originating, whatever, look at language features. I hope there's a forensic linguist within the bureau or someone they've contracted to come in and look at the actual raw language contained therein. Maybe that could help male, female, native speaker of English or not. You know, does the dollar sign go before or after the number?

1:19:13All things that would be indication of a European possibly. So there's so much they may have there. But I see no reason at this point in time for new notes or whatever we're calling them to be coming in. And this person, I'll leave it at this for now. Now, this person is really taking a risk saying, I know who did it. I know their names, addresses and ages. And just send me this. I don't know if he still wants the one Bitcoin or not. I'm confused about that part. But he does, which I think is$61 ,000. I just looked it up USD, US currency and not a whole lot of money. It'd be a nice quick payday for him.

1:19:48The family wouldn't have to be putting, you know, all that much out. But this this doesn't hold water for me. again, investigators, I'm talking to you now, you have to follow through in this. I get it. But I don't put a whole lot of weight in this. What's the purpose at this point in time with something new? And to, of all places, TMZ, nothing against those guys there. Send it directly to the family, which allegedly the first note went to, or the FBI. But a cell phone hidden somewhere, it's almost like some kind of Dungeons and Dragons game being played at this point. And I think it's by an opportunist.

1:20:22What do you think? I'd love to get your thoughts overall, John. But can I just ask you specifically first about that news that that first alleged ransom note was directed to Savannah specifically? I have a really hard time with it. I mean, I can understand them using Savannah's name. But, you know, as soon as they make this privy to the press in the way they did, I mean, man, you've got everybody standing to attention, every law enforcement agent in the area and around the country. And I just don't really get with it. I understand. We know where the watch was. We've described where the watch was.

1:21:09We're talking about the light outside and it having a problem. We're describing her pajamas. But I really, really, or the clothes they said she left with. I mean, I really have a problem with the whole thing. It's either an extremely unsophisticated guy, an extremely stupid kind of guy. But as far as being a professional kidnapper or have done kidnappings in the past, I would certainly say no way. No, I mean, this guy's dripping of rookie, dripping of stupid rookie as far as I'm concerned. Why? Because of the tape on the porch? I'm sorry? right why what draws what leads you there well i mean there's just no sophistication here i mean why would you tell the world you know it's like jim was kind of talking about you know if you if you want to do a kidnapping or something you want to get the person there and they're really not a person to you they're an object they're an object for money you've objectified them so you're going to grab that person take that person as quick as you can you're not going to spend 40 some minutes of the house and you're going to take off with that person you're going to already have it set up how you're going to make contact you're going to try and make contact in the most private way you possibly can because you don't want other people involved and you're going to try and lower your risk if you're a professional and you have some sophistication that you've been around and i see none of this here i see like somebody on a billboard broadcasting all over the place hey hey, you know, I've got Nancy Guthrie over here, Savannah, and, you know, I want a bunch of money for her, and I want$4 million.

1:23:03You know, I'll give you a discount if you give me the money on Thursday, and if not, I, you know, I'll have to wait until Monday, but I want it Monday, and I want$6 million, you know? So I think that's very, very, this is all very interesting to me. You know, some of it looks pretty stupid. And I've got a question, and I don't want to interrupt you, Megan, but I've got a question for Jim. And, you know, he specializes in linguistics. Jim, you and I know the type of personality pretty much that grabs women like that. I mean, you're usually psychopathic kind of personalities, you know, that's going to, you know, show up at 2.30 in the morning, break in to this 84-year-old woman's house.

1:24:04You're going to have a mask on. You're going to have a gun hanging from your groin. You're going to go in and you're going to wake her up. You're going to startle the hell out of her. I don't know how the woman didn't die from shock or from a heart attack with seeing this, you know, and being woken up like this. So then you're going to spend 40 minutes in there doing whatever you're going to do. Then the next thing you know, this woman is being taken from her house. OK, now I'm not hearing or I have heard nothing was taken from her house. Right. The only thing they pretty much that I heard was stolen was her.

1:24:50OK, so now I've heard the same. So she's being taken from her house. Right. So now I'm not hearing about clothes missing that a kidnapper would need to keep her in. I'm not hearing about medication that a kidnapper would need to keep her alive. I'm not hearing about any kind of sanitary stuff that a woman that's going to be kept in captivity for a number of days before she's traded for money is missing. I don't I don't I don't hear about anything at all. I'm not, you know, hearing about shoes. I don't know if the lady left in shoes. OK, Savannah said no shoes. OK, no shoes. Right now, some kidnapper here.

1:25:36Right. So now this guy is hauling her a bloody mess. OK, this poor old woman who has been grabbed in such a cruel, horrific way from her bed and being hauled out of that house is a bloody mess. And probably right from where the blood drops, she probably was dumped into some kind of vehicle. My thinking only. OK. And some of the people in our group. Okay. So bottom line there, what kind of person are we dealing with? To me, this has psychopath written all over it in my mind. Okay. Now, all of a sudden, there's a second note. And you're a linguistics guy. Okay. And I'm a linguistics guy, too. All right.

1:26:25So now we're looking at this guy hauling her away. And the first note, he's talking all dollars and what he wants for it. And now. And it reportedly ended, John. The first note reportedly ended, according to TMZ, with the words or else. Like you will you will give us this money and said or else. That was number one. Keep going.

1:26:49So anyway, so now we got this cruel scumbag. I'm sorry. OK. And this lady is hauled away. And now we get a second note. Now, the first note, if you look at the words, they're what I would expect from a psychopath, you know, that an unfeelings kind of guy. I mean, you know, there's three different, you know, types of primary intake senses when it comes to linguistics that are more or less used consistently. You know, one is visual, one is auditory, and the other is feelings, kinesthetic. OK, I have not met a psychopath yet that has a kinesthetic primary intake sense. In fact, I have not found a psychopath yet that feels hardly anything.

1:27:39I and believe me, I know a couple of them and I'm up close and personal because I study them and they know it. They we have an agreement. Now, the reason for this is they really don't do guilt or remorse. I mean, they've told me right to my face, John, I can't feel guilt or remorse. It's just that simple. Now, how much is genetic? Yes, they were abused growing up, too. But I do believe there's that slight genetic piece. Now, going on, we have this guy now, this cruel man that did this. he's turning around and he's saying more or less kind of but he's not saying exactly sorry but it was not intentional okay she perished i have never heard one of these guys these are guys they use words like perished no one does she's dead weird word she's dead okay i mean And these guys, that's how they're coming across.

1:28:47All right. Yeah. And not just that, but like, you know, that nothing you could have done would have saved her trying to make the family feel better. Just like sort of soft softening it all. Hold on. I had it right in front of me. But yeah. Yeah. Here it is. We believe it was heart related. She's been buried with nature. We never intended to hurt her. She perished shortly after she was taken. nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her condition i take your point john which is what a difference in tonality in approach and you know what fits what o 'connell was saying yesterday and james was here too um was that's a fraudster that's how a fraudster does like they try the one tack like brass knuckles that didn't get a payment.

1:29:42So now they're all like, oh, we're like the sweet kidnappers who we just want to let you know something terrible happened. It was totally unforeseen. They didn't reiterate their demand reportedly for money in that second note, but that was their take. Like, no, it's the grifter back trying method number two to get cash. And who knows? Breaking into the house early in the morning sorry go ahead yeah who knows go ahead i'm sorry go ahead thank you go ahead uh and who knows from eastern europe from uh you know sub-saharan africa uh or it could be someone you know very much local uh these these particular communications that's what i'll call them instead of notes per se uh they are they are flowery all over the place and they really don't make any sense the problem is we don't have much of a baseline of actual kidnappings in this country, as I described earlier.

1:30:37Yeah, parental things and custody things we have, human trafficking, those things, but a for-profit sort of stranger kidnapping. They are so rare. They are so out of the ordinary that we really don't have that template in terms of what kind of notes are they going to have. The closest we've come to it was JonBenet Ramsey case in 96 in Boulder, Colorado. But of course, that was never an actually kidnapping. But someone took the time to write a three-page note. There was actually a practice note put in the trash. And then the other note came out with the kind of demands, how much money, you'll do this, you'll do that.

1:31:10There was really none of that here. And it was very piecemeal and almost nonsensical from the beginning. So I've always said, Megan, and on your show back in February, multiple days in a row, this was a successful abduction. But we can criticize all we want in and out 40 minutes, taking something, not taking something, but it was a failed kidnapping. And then I posited, you know, after a few weeks, it never was meant to be a kidnapping. This was done for some other reason, something personal. John mentions, you know, psychopathy. You got to be careful. John knows that you can't, of course, do a psychovalve without actually doing testing.

1:31:49But I'm not even ruling out erotomania that this guy was a stalker, perhaps, of Savannah, and he couldn't get to her. The building she lived in in Manhattan was too well protected. Kids, et cetera. What's the next best thing? Do something to the mom. And whether it went wrong, whether it went right, she died too soon. But this guy is so scared right now. He had his own reasons for doing this personal, you know, perceived relationship. He may have met Savannah in the past. He may have, you know, shared emails with her, you know, very perfunctory and very basic back and forth. And she had no idea that maybe she was pissing off some guy by not giving him, you know, the second eight by 10 glossy or actually doing a phone call with him, something like that.

1:32:32And and he goes and said, well, I'll show her. And he does this thing again. Successful abduction. I don't think it was ever meant to be a kidnapping. And these letters, while they still have to be investigated, notes, communications, I think they're going to basically lead down a, you know, a rabbit hole that basically takes the investigators nowhere. Let me let me follow up on the erotomania thing, because, you know, I've discussed it many times. And unfortunately, I've had it in my own life. Here is something very interesting on this front. I've told this story once before in the air, but I know somebody who was a psychiatrist at a prison hospital for years, very well respected psychiatrist.

1:33:16And he told me years ago that there was a, you know, it's not the only test it was, but one of the tools they would use in figuring out whether a patient who was coming in, a prisoner, was a sociopath, right? No empathy whatsoever, was the following riddle. They would offer this riddle to all the prisoners. And the ones who are not sociopaths would have one kind of answer. and the ones who were sociopaths would all have a different answer, but the sociopaths would answer it the same way. Okay. And the riddle is, um, Guy goes to the funeral of a woman while they're mourning the decedent. Guy makes eye contact with a, um, a woman who's there, who's also attending the funeral and thinks that they had like a moment.

1:34:13Like the two of them exchange a glance. It lingers for a couple of seconds, whatever. The funeral ends. Everybody goes their separate ways. Two weeks later, guy kills that woman's mother. Why? And the answer is anything, if you're normal. If you're a sociopath, you know it immediately and they all have it instantly. and it is because he wanted to see her again. That's the way a sociopath thinks. And so to your point on the erotomania theory, Jim, like if you can't have access to Savannah, but what you really want is contact of some sort with Savannah, why not this? This would be a great way of having Savannah think about you and being in Savannah's life and like possibly even coming together with her physically in the future, like at a trial or something in some way.

1:35:12You just like they don't think the way we do fits. Absolutely not. The brain, the synapses don't connect as they should, especially depending on the level of degree and, you know, how many other examples. This was probably, Savannah was probably not the first victim that this person obsessed over. And again, I worked in New York City in the 90s, and I was up at NBC about once a month. And the various mostly female employees there, you know, the on-air personnel, before you were in that area, Megan. But, you know, once a month I was dealing with the head of security. Hey, another letter. Mostly then, back then letters put a lead out to whatever city they came from.

1:35:53Hey, you sent this kind of strange letter to someone, you know, so-and-so at NBC. Did you really plan to hurt her or do anything? And as long as they got a confirmation, no. The guy had no prior record. He wasn't about to travel. They said, you know, all right, no problem. You're good. But so, yeah, and I'm hoping and again, I said this back in February, Megan. I'm hoping the investigators are searching every single email Savannah ever received. She's the outlier to this kidnapping. Obviously, she brings the financial element to it. She's the one that could pay the bigger bucks, you know, several million, 15, 20 million, whatever it is.

1:36:27And so that's a factor to consider. But she's also the on air personality. There are plenty of wealthy people. And now we find out letter number one was addressed to her, which I didn't I didn't know that back then either. So that is very interesting. And then they perhaps backed off. But again, this is never about getting money, never about any sort of financial benefit to this person. This was saying, I now have something of yours. And quite frankly, maybe the person did not plan for Nancy Guthrie to die. And it's very likely with her delicate condition, she did, you know, suffer an early death.

1:37:02death and an awful death because of this trauma. But nonetheless, he would have loved to sit around and talk to her for weeks at a time. What was Savannah like growing up? And, you know, can I, can you draw some pictures for me? Whatever the fantasy life of this person would be. But, but that didn't happen. And I think this person then got rid of Nancy, probably not too far as the crow flies from that house. And, and then went deep and dark and it just hasn't come up since. The other stuff, as I said, opportunists. And isn't writing these notes. No. Here's an argument in favor of it is the guy writing the notes.

1:37:36I don't mean John necessarily porch man. Maybe he was working with somebody. I don't know. But here's an argument that the perpetrator is the one writing the notes. CBS News, I played to you their revelation that the first ransom note was addressed to your Savannah. What they didn't report, weirdly, in their on-air piece, but did report at CBS dot com, their website, was that the note gave highly specific details about Guthrie's home, including that an Apple watch, which we knew that he said where it was placed, but they reveal that it was that the note revealed an Apple watch with a white band was on the floor of her bedroom.

1:38:19Now, I don't know whether they made a mistake there, but that is the first I've seen that reported anywhere. And of course, all the news organizations were asked to withhold some details because, you know, if they get the the guy, they want to be able to test him with information that the public could never have accessed. But there it is. I mean, how else like if you're a fraudster trying to take advantage of this poor suffering, suffering family to try to get them to send you four million bucks or six million if they wait till Monday, how would you know that there's an Apple watch with a white band that was on the floor of her bedroom.

1:38:54That's now we're getting really specific. And maybe that's exactly what investigators found. That's that's not even the kind of thing like a maid two weeks earlier could attest to, you know, like that's you were there. You saw something the night of the crime. Like I'm starting to glean why they may believe these notes. These first two were authentic, John. Well, that's very possible. But, you know, if you also go to theory that somebody is really obsessed with Savannah and they're following this case, you know, from head to tail and they're following the news all the time. Cause that's what they do.

1:39:32They obsess, they obsess with the news. They look for stories all over the place. As a matter of fact, the person that took Savannah or I'm sorry, that took Nancy, I'm sure we'll be looking at us today too. But anyway, I just want to get back to that. I mean, so he could have picked that up from the news. Now, you're the first person that's bringing that out to me. I have not heard that before. And I think that is just unbelievable. CBS just posted it. That is really unbelievable on how that information could have gotten out. Okay. Because I'm going to talk in linguistics now. And I want Jim's feedback on this.

1:40:14Jim we know These guys don't have feelings number one Lots of them These kidnappers They would know feeling if they fell over So now this guy's talking about Unintentional He's talking about perished with nature What did you ever hear of a hard guy Right A psychopath Oh she perished with nature Oh it was unintentional Have you ever heard that fish? They don't use a word like that no use verbatim she's she's laying so let him answer i'm sorry go ahead good yeah and by the way buried with nature that all of us will be buried with nature we could be chopped up shallow grave regular grave uh a pond a lake uh in the desert we're going to be buried with nature there's nothing uh to me unusual about that and look i also want to be something we should throw out here.

1:41:11I've had friends over the years, kind of for jokes, at least my friends, they'd go to see a psychic. And it's fun to talk to them. And maybe they get little tidbits. It's amazing what a well-trained, experienced psychic can come up with and tell you about yourself. They're very well skilled in that department. I'm not saying the person who did this was writing the notes is a psychic, but I'm saying I'd like to see the actual language. And it could be very much just generic and sort of suggestive of this. And maybe the investigators have blinders on it. So, oh, well, okay, the watch was kind of over there, but maybe they meant that it was here and they go in that regard.

1:41:49So we have to be careful. And we're also only getting sources. I'd love to see the notes, letters themselves. That could help us a lot. I know they won't release them. All right, actually, we're gonna hold you guys over. We're gonna go to break. We're gonna keep this rolling. But I have something to show you right after this break, a picture that may change the discussion entirely. Stand by. Don't go away. SiriusXMers, we will be right back. And by the way, it's Friday. Go to megankelly.com and sign up for our American News Minute. Comes out today. Strudwick update coming your way. Starting something new, especially a business, is so hard.

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1:44:59There's a note that our Brian Enten reported on that says that she's dead. She's with nature. Is there any hope that the FBI and investigators find her? I hope they find her. I mean, Savannah's gone through a rough. That family's gone through hell, but I hope they find her. President Trump weighing in on the case after having been asked about it and saying, I hope they find her. Unfortunately, he didn't sound as optimistic as he did the last time he was asked about this and weighed in. There he was outside under an umbrella on a rainy day. The first time was on Air Force One and said, you know, he felt optimistic.

1:45:32Remember that there was going to be breaking news. And we later found out what that was about. And it was those, it was the porch video of porch man. So he did have reason for optimism though that didn't wind up solving it at least not yet. Back with me now, James Fitzgerald. He's a former supervisory special agent for the FBI. Now the co-host of the cold red podcast and John Kelly's with us to a veteran criminal profiler and psychotherapist guys. Great to have you back again. Um, here's the picture I wanted to show you. So we discussed how the perpetrator might've been out there stalking, getting information about Savannah.

1:46:09Take a look at Nancy Guthrie in this picture. Notice anything? on her left arm yeah it's the fitbit or whatever apple watch yeah with a white band yeah apple watch with a white band not for nothing but you can see it nancy's skin this happens sometimes with the elderly with her skin looks almost purple from the mid forearm down down just underscoring that she was a fragile old lady this is 2023 so two you know three years before she would be abducted. You can see, I mean, look at that. It's like the picture of somebody who is frail. You can see her cane. You can see her old skin. I mean, aging.

1:46:53I don't mean old. I mean, aging skin. Obviously, a circulatory problem because you can see the blood is pooling down on her extremities. And you can see the watch. So it's telling from a number of perspectives. Now, the CBS.com report said that the perpetrator described Apple Watch with a white band on the floor of her bedroom. So, you know, if you're just somebody taking a shot, that's risky to say that's where it was when you don't know. So you could know about the Apple Watch with the white band. I don't know that you'd be able to say where it was the day she was taken. And the other piece of it is Howard Bloom reporting specifically.

1:47:34He's adding this, he says, the first note actually also correctly described what Guthrie had been wearing on the night she was abducted. Again, how accurate, how closely did they describe it? You know, you could I know what my mom sleeps in every night and you could if you if you hit the category, I'd probably believe you. but if this person actually said you know it was like leopard pajamas and that's what it was you'd believe him like the FBI knows how close this guy came to the mark and again Harvey who's been in constant contact with the FBI is reporting that the FBI believes the first two are authentic Savannah constant contact with the FBI believes the first two notes are authentic like belong from the kidnapper and my information was that the second note the ransom sorry the apology note whatever we're calling it, these she's now died note, that the reason they believed it was from the first guy was that it also had a reference to the same Bitcoin account as was in the first.

1:48:34But that is somewhat contradicted by reports out now that there wasn't a renewed demand for payment. So why would they, which I believe, like everybody's saying there was no new renewed demand for payment in the second note. So why would he have even made reference to the Bitcoin Maybe the first report was wrong, that there wasn't a second reference to the Bitcoin account, and it was simply the IP address, such as it was obviously masked and so on, was traced back to the same location, obviously masked or not, that it matched the first note to the second. Here's, okay, so that's all that. But here is what I want to ask you guys about.

1:49:17The Harvey friend contact. Friend of the kidnapper who keeps, you know, texting in to Harvey or emailing. He is emailing Fitz. My conclusion is, my amateur sleuthing, this person is definitely not the same person as the person who wrote the first two notes. Because now we figured out the timeline. The first two notes demanding payment for$4 or$6 million and then the, oh, I'm sorry, she died. Those happened the first week Nancy had disappeared. She was taken on a Saturday into a Sunday. The first note came, we believe, on Tuesday, basically, saying pay us by Monday or else. And the Thursday deadline for the$4 million passed.

1:50:02And then they received the second note saying she died. before it was time to pay number, you know, the$6 million. The whole point is the first week, they allegedly had Nancy taken. They received one note saying$4 million or$6 million. They received the second note saying, not nevermind, but she's died. Whoops, she's died. That's what led to Savannah and her siblings coming out and saying on video, we understand, we really want to celebrate with our mother. This is important to us. We will pay. And the belief now is that this is them not explicitly acknowledging she's dead, as they've been told, because they don't want all of us to go away and stop looking for Nancy because they don't know if this is real.

1:50:49Right. So like she might be dead. This might be the actual kidnapper. But if it's not or if she's not, they don't want all of us to take our foot off the pedal and go away and stop covering this. So the family wants to telegraph to the kidnapper if it's real. We'll give you money for her corpse. Please stay in touch with us. Tell us how to do that. And while keeping us all on the line. But the friend of Harvey doesn't appear until second week. Second week. And his first message says time is of the essence. I've seen them and suggested maybe in Mexico. Then a day or two later sends another note saying, time is no longer of the essence.

1:51:31Telegraphing like she's died now, like between his first note and his second note. But the other person a week earlier pulled the same routine. Give us the four to six million or else. And then a couple of days later, she died. So this is not the same person. I mean, maybe it's the same fraud being perpetrated from different angles, but that's what's happened. So initially I thought maybe friend of Harvey was dovetailing at the same time as the first two-letter guy. And initially they were like, right, you know, pay, pay, pay. Time is of the essence. They both were kind of saying that. And then they initially were both like, eh, never mind.

1:52:08But that's not true. It was a week later. And it's part of the reason why I think Friend of Harvey is completely bullshit. I have an open mind on the first guy. Friend of Harvey seems like a complete fraudster. And last but not least, let me play what Harvey Levin said just a couple of hours ago as he revealed friend of Harvey or friend of kidnapper has been in touch yet again. And this is what he said. Stop 49. Only two are directly involved. He says that he has video. He has video of Nancy Guthrie with the main kidnapper. He says, um, while it contains is my definition of delivering it on a silver platter, a short video of the main guy with Nancy the day that was probably her last.

1:53:04He also says that he has names, addresses, phone numbers of the kidnappers. Now, he says he has that video in a phone and the phone is turned off. It is in a secure, secret location, but a location easy to find if you know where to look. That's what he says. He doesn't say a safe deposit box, but he says easy to find if you know where to look. And he says that if he gets a Bitcoin, he will deliver, as he puts it on a silver platter, exactly how to get access to this phone, including the password. John Kelly, thoughts on that? This guy's looking for his 15 minutes of fame in a Bitcoin. That's about what this amounts to to me.

1:54:04I mean, this is just, you know, silliness. I mean, you don't believe that guy at all. I don't believe it. I don't believe it for one minute. He's getting off that it keeps getting reported and he's on TV and he's hearing about himself and he's getting off to that. And he's trying to get a Bitcoin in the meantime. This guy, you know, I look, I can be wrong. Right. There's no question about it. But I wouldn't give this guy 10 cents, let alone a Bitcoin. Yeah. Yeah. And you heard Harvey later come out, Fitz, and say, if you're real, go to wherever the phone is, get a screen grab of something proving you're not a liar.

1:54:47If you've got something, send it. You've been sending us more than a dozen emails. Send us something to show you're not a fraudster. That's not going to happen. And by the way, Fitz, do you remember when this guy sent his first or second note to Sheriff Harvey? He said, you won't be hearing from me again. OK, it's been like 10, 10 notes later. Harvey's begging him to send something proving he's not a fraudster. And I think we all know where that's going to lead. Yeah. Fake, phony and fraudster. The three F's there, literally speaking. Yeah. You know, we're going back and forth with this, Megan.

1:55:23I probably use the next three words I'm about to say, you know, a half dozen times with you in February. I'm going to modify it slightly. Back then, all they were asking for was proof of life. Three words. Now it's very likely Nancy is deceased. Now give us proof of death. Why all this game playing, this showmanship, these machinations going back and forth and people guessing and folks like us discussing this on the air, which is fine because we have limited information. And of course, I'm going to say again, the investigators would be remiss if they didn't follow through on this. But I hope they're telling Savannah to please, you know, don't get overly what's the right word but don't get overly confident that this is something that's going to come to pass because we wanted proof of life and we never really had that a bit I mean a Fitbit or the Apple watch whatever it was on the floor and describes it okay and Megan by the way that picture you showed of Savannah with her mother with the watch I assume that was public before the abduction correct we think so I actually asked my team where we got it and they said it's been circulating online, but by all people who are watching this case.

1:56:36So, but it would have to be, right? Because Nancy's been missing. And it's on the Today Show set. Whether it was public or not on Facebook or whatever is what I'm suggesting here. So if the person would know how to describe the watch, if this was a private collection, you know, that Savannah never put out there, all right, that tells us a little something more. If it's out there. And Megan, I was on with you, I think live one day and you found and your team found a walkthrough of Nancy's bedroom. And there was a video that, you know, years before, and probably the older woman hasn't changed her bedroom that much.

1:57:11It's the same house, same bedroom. And I think you even commented, you know, your mother, remember my mother, you know, you just don't change much when you get, you know, past 50 or 60 in your bedroom unless you actually move. So it wouldn't be hard to watch that somewhere and then, in fact, come up with this inside singular knowledge that only the real kidnapper knows. And again, I'm saying this was an abduction, not a kidnapping for whatever reason. But Jim, you don't find it persuasive? Like, if the cops got there and that Apple Watch was on the floor, that's good. That would convince me this was actually from the real kidnapper.

1:57:52I'd have to. Yeah. And I would agree with you, Megan, on that particular note. But it also doesn't mean these are the kidnappers. And I'm not sure the guy who abducted her would have put some letter out like this, making it look like a kidnapping as opposed to an abduction. And really quick, the other point I wanted to make here, there have been for-profit criminal kidnappings over the years. I hate to go back 94 years, Lindbergh. The baby died within 10 minutes of being brought down the ladder in Hopewell, New Jersey, and Hoffman buried the body there. But the kidnapping, I'm sorry, the ransom request went on for two years.

1:58:30Sidney Riso was shot in the arm in 1999. He's the Exxon executive in northern New Jersey, and he died a day or two later, but the husband and wife kidnapping team kept up all the negotiations for the next six to eight weeks or so. So why did the person, so if she did die, why did they give up on the kidnapping? There had to be a lot of planning with this, whether from overseas, you know, locally, whatever, whether the kidnap, you know, mastermind was somewhere else. And this was local talent that he hired to go in with the mask and the Doc Holliday holster in front of him and carry through there.

1:59:06But why just give up on the kidnapping? If you had that proof of life, send something. Send the pajamas or at least cut a piece off that the mother was allegedly wearing and say, we have her. Here's the pajamas she was wearing. She's OK. give us the money. They would have paid that money in a heartbeat, knowing that kind of proof. But everything is so nebulous, so amorphous that I don't blame them. I'm glad they didn't pay the big bucks to these people with such little information to provide. Again, successful abduction, you can criticize the interactions there on the porch, but a half-assed kidnapping, and I would just further surmise, it never was meant to be a for-profit kidnapping by legal definition.

1:59:48John, our pal Howard Bloom, who's reporting in airmail, restarted this case this week because he was the one who first revealed some of the contents of the second note. He is reporting that there's a case of regret happening right now amongst law enforcement because they are starting to think they should have just paid the four million and then followed the money. And that would have gotten them to somebody, which would have given them some answers. And again, the reporting is that the FBI thinks that$4 million demand came from the actual kidnapper. Here is Howard on, I don't know where he was this week, but he was on Inside Edition.

2:00:32And he was talking about this theory in terms that John Wayne fans may find familiar. SOT 56. The$4 million ransom was never paid. And investigative reporter and best-selling author Howard Bloom says detectives he spoke to are regretting that decision today. Not to have done that originally when the window of opportunity was there was perhaps a very big, even a fatal mistake. He says Tucson police considered using what they called the Big Jake Theory, a tactic inspired by the 1971 John Wayne Western Big Jake. Let me down! Come on! Let me down! In the movie, John Wayne's grandson is kidnapped and he chases the bad guys.

2:01:16He has a plan. He's going to pay the money, but also get the money back and his grandson back. And the cops refer to that because that's what they feel should have been done in this case. They should have paid the ransom, hoped to get Nancy back, and then worry about getting the money back. Bloom believes the kidnappers got the idea to kidnap Nancy after Savannah returned home to shoot a special for the Today Show last November. The best thing about Tucson is coming home and seeing you guys. I believe someone in Tucson saw this and they saw, look at these people. They have so much. Their life is so blessed.

2:01:51And in their greed, they came up with this scheme to take Savannah's mother. so what do you make of that john that thought they should have just paid the four mil yeah no if you listen to what he said there he said the tucson police he didn't say the fbi you follow me i would not if i would not if the fbi didn't go along with that wholeheartedly i would not go along with it i would pan the tucson police track that i don't know can i do Do I believe the FBI could track that Bitcoin transaction? Absolutely. You know, one other question, two questions I have that I think are important. The one question is her cane.

2:02:37Did anybody say that her cane was out of the house, that the cane was missing from the house? I have not heard that the cane was either left behind or taken. I don't know anything about it. OK, because that's that's important for some guy that's apologizing, right? Or seemingly putting together some kind of empathy for the woman. And then the other thing, again, I go back to what you brought up, Megan, about the news and the watch and everything being found on the floor on the news. I mean, these guys watch everything. I'm telling you, this guy who's out there watching this, and this brings me back to what Jim said early on in this interview, in this show.

2:03:25Okay, Jim, you talked about him being scared. Whoever this guy is, right now, he's scared. Talk about that. Well, especially Fitz, because did you hear what Maureen said on this show on Wednesday? I heard a few things. I know she put a 75 percentile mark out there. I'll play it just for the audience that didn't hear her. But we love Maureen and she's former FBI, too. And she said the following two days ago. The person we're talking to could say, wow, they're probably closer than we think they are. Could you just expand on why you think they're wrapping, like they're getting there, that they're close to making an arrest?

2:04:03I think they're getting close to the porch guy. And when they when they get the porch guy, the floodgates shall swing open. What's your level of confidence on that? Seventy five percent. That's big news. I know. She's not loosey goosey. Maureen's careful. She's considered she's bright and she's got connections. So that was very interesting. And it did make a lot of news. It went everywhere. So your thoughts. Yeah. And I trust Maureen implicitly. And if she has sources that I don't have right inside the investigation, good for her. And of course, if that person was identified, that would open the floodgates or whatever she said there.

2:04:47I agree 100 percent. So, I mean, he is the kidnapper, whether there was someone else or a doctor. Let me go back to that word. But and whether someone else helping in the car or whatever, we don't know that. But but there's going to be an alpha male who is in charge of this. If there's a second if there is a helper, a second person, it's going to be the alpha male. That's what my profile went out, you know, at the end of February, early March, when this thing just hadn't been solved. And he's the one that, of course, the investigators have to focus on. And I think everything else here jets them and floats them.

2:05:19And it doesn't have anything to do with the case itself. And again, you talk a little bit, Megan, early on about the regret the task force members may feel. And I've been on task force, Unabomb task force and the D.C. Sniper task force. And when the next victim occurred, when the next victim was killed, you felt like shit and you felt awful. What could we have done different? Why didn't we make the arrest beforehand? I remember before I even showed up at the Unabomber Task Force, they did an interview or something in Playboy magazine, I think, and a very legitimate interview. Playboy would have good journalism back then.

2:05:54And then there's two killings right afterwards, and they felt so bad, two bombing victims by the Unabomber. And they felt somehow their article, their interview, things they said about him could have contributed to him. But then we finally got in the cabin, got all his written communications. And these murders and these particular people were planned well before that came out. So as John said, this person has no remorse, no compassion for anyone. He's a narcissist to some degree. And this is all about him at this point. And if Maureen's right, we talked about pre-offense behavior and post-offense behavior.

2:06:28Whoever out there knows this guy, maybe he heard what Maureen said. You may see some changes in his behavior, putting the car in the garage, you know, driving Uber back and forth to work, growing a beard, you know, shaving it off, whatever it takes. If you see someone with behavior that's changed, certainly back in January, then again in February, you know, remember that. But certainly in the last week or so, if he thinks people are getting closer. The best thing, and I'll just say this one more time. The best thing happening for the actual abductor is these bizarre notes coming in. They're saying, thank goodness, defray the investigation.

2:07:07Let them focus on that and not worry so much about me because I never even thought of doing it for that reason. But hey, if they want to think that, good for them. This guy did it for a very personal reason. And as I put out there, I challenge this person, if he's listening to my podcast and certainly yours, he may just be a guy that likes to have sex with old ladies. I know it's graphic. I hate to say it. And there's a name for that, John. You know what that condition is. It's in the DSM. And if he wants to tell us otherwise, no, I'm not one of those perverts. Put something out there and tell us why you did this.

2:07:38And you don't have to give your name away, you don't have to give your address or your age, which apparently somebody has on their phone. But but just, you know, tell us why you did this. So you're not. That's why the Unabomber eventually started writing to The New York Times. He didn't want people to think he was some random nut job, you know, sending off bombs to random people. He had specific purposes in doing so. And I'm trying to encourage this guy. You know, if you don't want to be seen as some kind of pervert who likes old women, you may want to you may just just tell the public why you did this without even giving anything away.

2:08:11And at least your legacy will go down that you're not this creepy guy that many of us who know this stuff think you may just be. very women you know by the way it's megan at megankelly.com if you're trying to get in touch go ahead john yeah megan and jim there's two other women similar looks older women that are missing uh in in um arizona it's it's kind of creepy if you want to take a look at it and i don't think either one has been found um they lived alone very very emo very similar to Nancy as far as living conditions go. Okay? If you want to look at Carolyn Kosner, C-O-S-N-O-R-N Iona Dees, D-E-A-S.

2:09:06If you want to take a look or if you'd like me to send some pictures over to you, because the first thing, you know, we started looking at, you know, and And, you know, if somebody's missing and somebody's been grabbed and if it's not a kidnapping, if it's something else, if it is something sexual or whatever, do we have any other victims? Let's look around and see if we have anybody else. You are the serial killer catcher. Yeah. So if you check these two women out, if you want me to send their pictures over, Megan, I'll send them over to you. I think you'll find it very interesting. We would like to check that out.

2:09:42So my team is now alerting me that in that segment that NBC aired in November, this past November, November 5th, 2025, which would have been December, January, three months before the kidnapping. Nancy had the white watch or the Apple watch with the white strap on it on there, too. So there was that picture of Savannah and her back in 2023. And now here, this is just three months before she was taken. There it is. You can see it very clearly. Apple Watch, white band. But again, doesn't necessarily explain if they were able to say it was on the floor of her bedroom. But that watch was definitely out there for the for the viewing.

2:10:27The case remains a mystery. It remains unsolved, not for lack of trying by our part. On our part, I don't know. I'm sure that law enforcement still is working furiously, but Harvey's reporting no new leads. He's disputing that they're close to finding porch guy based on his sources. But he also says he hasn't spoken to the FBI in months. He says they won't call him back anymore. So I'm not sure how up to date his information is. I trust Maureen implicitly as you do, Jim. She hasn't steered us wrong yet. Guys, thank you both so much for being here and further updates to follow. You're welcome, Megan.

2:11:05Thank you so much, Megan. Have a wonderful weekend. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you. You too. All right. And thanks to all of you for tuning in. Go ahead. As I mentioned, today's Friday. So we post our American News Minute. If you go to MeganKelley.com, you can sign up for it. I'm sorry to tell you, but my Stradwick updates have been out of control lately. He's the sweetest boy. Honestly, I love this dog so much. He's just so sweet and so loving and lovable. But he's so naughty. And we've had trips to the vet. We've had very expensive bills. We've had a lot of stuff ruined, like recently. And he's five.

2:11:45Why? Why? We also do the news in the American News Minute. It's not just the Streadwick newsletter. Anyway, go and sign up if you need a laugh at my expense. And in the meantime, have a wonderful weekend. Lots of love to you. We're back on Monday with Stu Bergeer. See you then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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