Lindsay Clancy "Postpartum Psychosis" Defense, Perez Hilton Legal Questions, and NEW Nolan Wells Timeline, with MK True Crime Hosts | Ep. 1377

28:11I mean, that seems to be what they're arguing over inside this courtroom, Matt. Yep. No, and look, I think the prosecution should be leaning into the mental health problems. I think that they should be saying, yep, she's absolutely crazy. She's loony. She's not playing the full deck. All of that is true. But she still understood the nature and quality of her acts. And that's reflected in her journal. And the fact that, look, I think a huge fact that nobody's really talking about is the fact that he's talking to her for four minutes. she's conscious and she doesn't tell him that the kids have bands wrapped around their necks downstairs like that.

28:44You could almost from that as a good prosecutor would be leaning into that. I haven't seen them do that yet. And look, I don't want to be too harsh here. I don't want to I hate it being criticized, but I have not been over impressed with what I've seen from the prosecution on this. I'm I'm with Dave and Mark on on that. And look, it is. It's always bad to hide behind the lectern to like separate yourself from the jury, not expose yourself fully, your body, your body motions, like try to connect with them. Drives me nuts. And you're right about the accent. It drives me nuts. Those kinds of things can matter, you know, where they don't feel connected to you.

29:20Right. Let's go back to inside the courtroom and hear the husband describing the moment when he found the children sought for. And when you went left, what did you see? I saw Cora. And how did she look? She had a band around her neck. And was that an exercise band? Yeah. And do you recall whether she was, what position she was in, whether face up or face down? She's face down. And when you saw her in that condition, what did you do? I immediately ran over and tried to take the band off. What did you see or do next? I saw Callan. And where was he? He was next to her. And how did he appear? He had a band around his neck.

30:12Sorry? He had a band around his neck. And did you remove that as well? Yeah. And do you recall what position he was in? Same as Cora. After you removed the band from Callan's neck, what did you do next? I tried to find Dawson. I went to the other side of the basement, and he was in my office. and when you saw Dawson um what condition was he in um I knew he was gone and did he also have a band around his neck yeah okay I mean it's just very hard to hear and you know the jury's going to recoil at the facts of this case but the defense is chipping away at this woman was suffering and And they have, among other things, her journal.

31:02And here is a bit of the defense reading selective parts of that. I now have horrible insomnia and anxiety, which is causing depression. I have no appetite. I don't know what's wrong with me. I want help. I want to be well. Separate occasion. He's still a very happy baby despite his sleep training. Why I feel guilty is not really hitting his milestones, not rolling over, although he almost is, exclamation point. and he's babbling, which is a new milestone. She wrote, I have crazy brain fog. I feel like I can't make a plan. I can't carry it out. Like I just live moment to moment, waiting for the next nap time.

31:41I'm terrified of Cal getting overtired now because I feel I can't help him. She then wrote, I'm really worried about going back to work and not being able to function with the brain fog. I feel like I should start with a four-hour shift and see how I do. I can't tell if I am withdrawing from Ativan and Benadryl or is this my new baseline? I feel completely disconnected with my baby. I feel like I'm going through the motions every day. A big thing is I feel disconnected with myself, time, reality. Just going to show you one more and then go back to you, Garagos. This is Sot 11, where Kevin Reddington, the defense lawyer who you like, is cross-examining this very young Dr.

32:20Tufts. You understand that if, in fact, it's determined that you advertise as an expert in post-partum psychiatry and you had a month experience plus a residence, would you consider that to be negligent or misrepresentation? I do not believe that I have been negligent. Do you understand what misrepresentation means? Yes. With a month under your adult plus your residency, you really want to share that you believe that you were an expert. Can you advertise that? I don't think that's exactly the wording that I used. I said that it was an interest of mine. Did you give a what? The answer. Oh, good.

33:05It is good. I just think the wording was that it's an interest of mine. I don't believe I call myself an expert. Are you an expert in a post-Science? Maybe. I don't know. I think it depends on what you define an expert as. okay so mark what i see is a smart strategy of instead of serving them up lindsey clancy serving them up a negligent medical professional or two who actually did or should have had the expertise to diagnose this woman and and sound the alarm and fail to and to your point it doesn't hurt that this particular doctor looks about 12 years old. I mean, she looks like we could all be babysitting her.

33:54Not only does she look like she's 12 years old, you haven't played, at least so far, my favorite part of his cross-examination, which was her trying to get around the fact that there was an invisible N.O.T. on her notes. And he has so much fun with her on that. and you have hit on, as usual, the effective strategy here. And the strategy is when you have a prosecution, to Dave's point, that is so grossly over the top. And I know I don't want to insult Matt's good friend here. Friend of Matt's is a friend of mine. But the DA in this case, you know, I had a judge once ask a DA that I was trying to case against, did they put you on this case because they wanted to lose it.

34:41And I almost had this here. I think the D.A.

34:44Dave Aronberg:had signed. I think the D.A. put the woman on this case so they could lose it because he didn't want to he didn't want to just dismiss it. My dad, when he was a prosecutor, he used to say sometimes it's easier to just try and lose the case than to to plead it out. And I think that's what's going on here, because this is the most ridiculous prosecution of a woman. I look, I agree with you, Megan. And I was trying to say, if you were on this jury or in the panel, I would have said the defense thanks and excuses, Megan Kelly. What you have to understand, this case resonates. I'm surrounded by mothers everywhere.

35:20My daughter, in my office, anywhere I go, I've got nothing but mothers of two or three kids. They are obsessed with this case, as are non-mothers. And part of it is that they are torn by what the prosecution is doing here. When they when the prosecutor starts talking about five years ago, didn't you say I can't handle this or I could kill this kid or something like that? What mother hasn't at one time been at wit's end about their kids? I mean, or father, for that matter, but mothers especially. And now you're going to not like this retrospect. Well, I agree not like this, but this woman is mentally ill.

36:04This woman was in the throes of psychosis. There is no rational. The idea of characterizing this, to Matt's point, as rational or saying that it's rational is so absurd that you lose all credibility. Then you put on this so-called expert and you've got the greatest, circle back, the greatest theme as the defense. The mental health system failed her. You want to prosecute somebody, prosecute the mental health system, because it certainly did not. They had every opportunity in the world to save these babies, and they didn't. Can I tell you something? One time, Abby and I were on a plane, and we were heading out west together.

36:44It was one of those small little jets, and it was just she and I as the passengers. And it was a terrible landing. It was an aborted landing, and then they had to come around again. And we were already concerned because we had seen our pilot and she looked just like this doctor.

36:58Dave Aronberg:I mean, truly, she looked about like 17 years old and she had a ponytail on the very top of her head, which did not help. OK, I'm just going to say it did not help. And we had a terrible landing even when she did land the plane. And she's she's coming off the plane and she's not going to say anything to us about the fact that we clearly almost crashed. And I almost never directly confront a pilot. but I actually felt the need to say to her, do you think that was a good landing? And the woman said, well, we hit some sort of dust bunnies or something. We had to come around again. And I'm like, okay, but did you think that was good?

37:34Dave Aronberg:And she just kind of looked at me scared. And I said, how many hours do you have in the air? And she ran off the plane. She ran. She, she, she exited. Yeah, because she knew she was being questioned by you, by Megyn Kelly. That's why. Dave, don't you just hate it when the pilot of your private plane, your private jet looks too young? This is a problem that Mark and Megan have. I don't think you and I have ever experienced that before. I want to have that problem one day, Megan. I was not paying for it. Someone wanted me to give a speech, and they offered to get us transportation. And by the way, it happened to be this very hard-to-get-to location, which is why they got us this plane.

38:09Dave Aronberg:But then I found out after the fact they had done it on the cheap because Maddie, which is that – There's nothing wrong with her name Maddie, but I think when you get older, you graduate to Madeline. Maddie, with the ponytail on the top, should not have run. She ran. And this doctor on the stand is giving Maddie the pilot vibes where you're like, I don't think anybody's life should have been placed in this woman's hands. And that's an advantage for the defense. Now, I will say, just in getting ready for today, I read the TikTok. TikTok, you know, 817, 818 a.m., 4 p.m., 4.53. And what this TikTok shows, Dave, is she's she's acting kind of normally like you're not reading this like, oh, my God, this is a woman who's going to kill her children later today.

38:59And it does, I think, help more the prosecution because it's she's not frothing at the mouth. She's not like bumping into walls. She's not I'm hearing the voices. You know, to the contrary, she seems kind of normal.

39:15Dave Aronberg:She's sending him out to CVS to get the Miralax for the one child. Like, I think more than anything, what helps the prosecution is just how normal she seemed in every moment the day of the actual murders. Yeah, that's why it's important for the defense to show that when you have postpartum psychosis, you can mask your symptoms. I mentioned this earlier, but they can put on experts to show that people in deep psychiatric crises can perform everyday routines, things that look normal on the surface, engage in like autopilot behaviors. So that's what they're going to lean on. And one thing was mentioned earlier is that this is Massachusetts.

39:55So not only do you have home field advantage to the defense lawyer with this accent, but also you have a standard that doesn't exist in most other states. Normally, the standard is that you have to have an established medical condition and not know the difference between right and wrong. So if you jump out of a window afterwards, hey, why'd you do that? Because you knew what you did was wrong. But that's not the standard of Massachusetts. It's much easier to put forward an insanity offense there. And as was mentioned earlier, it's very convoluted. It says as a result of a mental defect that you lack substantial capacity to appreciate the criminality of your conduct.

40:29Like, and then the burden of proof shifts once you make a showing to the prosecution, not the defense. So it's very difficult, I think, to actually win this case for the prosecution side. And one last thing, Mark said that the DA is at fault here. That's my friend. Matt knows all the DAs except, but this is my buddy in Massachusetts, Tim Cruz. And I don't believe we would actually put someone up.

40:53Dave Aronberg:Friend of Dave, not friend of Matt. That's right. Get it straight. I don't think that he would put anyone up to fail because in the end, it's his name on the line. I don't know. Go ahead. I'll call him a friend of Dave Afad as opposed to a farm friend of Matt. But the this guy knows what he's doing. He wouldn't have put this woman in her giant bows or success. What should have happened, Garagos, in your opinion? How should this have been? Look, the one thing that and I think my two I'm in the middle of this prosecutorial sandwich here. But the baloney. Exactly. I like to think of smoked ham. But the one thing that prosecutors will tell you, if they've got an able defense lawyer, the defense lawyers understand the risk of going to trial.

41:48And if you've got a good prosecutor who's not trying to make a name for themselves or anything else, you're going to work out a resolution. I mean, that's always the case. One of the great things about being an accomplished trial lawyer like Kevin Reddington is, is nobody's going to try to make their bones against him. Maybe some would, but generally. And he would have, I'm sure, come up with a resolution that would have put her in a psychiatric hospital where she's going to be anyway. And it would have been a lockdown facility. And you wouldn't have had to put, mind you, putting that father through this, putting the families through this.

42:27Remember, she's got parents. They were the grandparents. Can you even imagine the repercussions amongst the family? I always say sometimes prosecutors get this, they become so entrenched in the prosecution that they forget about whose interests are they vindicating. The whole idea of a trial, of a criminal trial, is you're supposed to be vindicating somebody's interest and accountability. And I guarantee you there aren't any family members who are screaming, I need you to go prosecute this case. I haven't seen one who said this. This should have been resolved. It should have been resolved in a fashion that dealt with it psychiatrically.

43:11She's not getting out. I mean, that's what makes this almost kabuki theater-like. It's where are you going to house her? It reminds me of another case I've got where the guy, if he pleads guilty criminally, he's going to be on one side of the jail. If he gets acquitted, he's got a detainer, an immigration detainer hold, and they're going to move him to another wing of the jail and you can't get the prosecutor to figure out that it doesn't matter where we house them. So. But you can't you can get out of the mental health facility. We just did an interview, you know, two and a half months ago with John Hinckley, Jr., who is out and free and wrote a very interesting book.

43:48So, you know, it does matter. She could get out. Let's certainly hope if that's the way this goes. It's past childbearing age, you know, but she she could get out again. One final question on this case before we move on. How do you like the civil case that the husband has now brought or is bringing against Patrick Clancy versus Dr. Jennifer Tufts and the other psychiatrist who treated his now ex-wife too? Anyone like the chances to say they missed it? They missed it all. Maddie, it's not really her name, missed it all. You know, I often tell clients if the lawyer says I'll charge you by the hour means he doesn't think much of your case.

44:30The lawyer tells you I'll take it on contingency. He likes your case. This is a case I would take on contingency. I know. I agree. This is a tough one for these doctors because, of course, hindsight's 20-20, but not asking for the full medical records, Matt, that's bad. um she my information is she held herself out as a specialist in postpartum mental health so you know you can split hairs about expert specialist but you know this woman was right in front of her and was being treated by her and within days killed her three children and tried to kill herself so it's not a great record no i think that the look uh if dave Ehrenberg was prosecuting this case, this would be a conviction.

45:16Okay. And if Mark Garagosa was defending it against his prosecutor, she's going to a mental health facility. And I think this is one of those that really, a lot of this comes down to the lawyers that were involved and to the strategies that are employed. And this case, just the whole thing, just it breaks my heart, Megan. It just does. This is a tough one to watch as interesting as it is. But yeah, my prediction is this goes for the defense at the end. Right. I mean, there are some practical takeaways on it. You know, it's like, we shouldn't lose sight of those just because we're all lawyers. It's like, if your wife, or for that matter, husband, but this tends to be a postpartum thing, is saying anything about having thoughts of hurting herself with the children, as much as you love her and believe she loves the children and will eventually be sound and safe to be around them, you have to get those children away from her.

46:09Dave Aronberg:You have got to get her away from the children until you are absolutely certain the mental health crisis has passed. You have to. It's like walking around the house with a loaded gun, except you've placed the loaded gun in the hand of a two year old toddler who's running and has access to all the rest of the children. It's extremely dangerous. You've got to take this very, very seriously. If there's no other takeaway for families at home, we should have that one. Go ahead, Dave. Yeah. Now, if I was a prosecutor, I mean, maybe I can get a conviction on one of the lesser charges. But I don't think any prosecutor really could get a conviction on first degree murder here.

46:45That's such a hill to climb. Maybe I'll be wrong. We'll see what the jury says. One last thing. This civil litigation filed by the husband, that helps the defense. That is in line with the defense's theory here. So just another reason why this case is headed towards a not guilty verdict. if you want someone to blame blame those women in the white coats who had an obligation to help her and and to some extent to protect those children and failed that's that's going to be the argument okay let's keep going um nolan wells in that case in the news very much still and uh just for the listening audience this is um a young man who traveled out to horn island off the coast of mississippi with his buddies on july 4th he was black all of his friends were white this would become relevant to the Ben Crumps of the world, but not to the rest of us.

47:32They were lifelong friends. They took three boats out there in total. Nolan chose not to go back with the one boat that had transported him to the island when that boat went back around 3.30 in the afternoon because he was talking to a girl reportedly and wanted to stay talking to that girl known as Katie. um when that boat went back to port and the other two boats went back nolan wasn't on either one and it was chaotic and there were some 30 kids and it wasn't until later that they realized no one had nolan and then started calling around and ultimately called his mom and called authorities and returned his phone to nolan's mother who asked for it and they were happy to give it over However, she now reportedly still has the phone and is not giving it over to the police, which is weird.

48:21But it's all the speculation is zeroing in on his white friends as allegedly the last ones to be with him. But now there are two adults coming forward saying that they were there, that they were on this island and that they saw Nolan as late as 6 p.m. that day, which is after all of his friends had left. and certainly well after the boat in question that's gotten most of the accusations, the one that left around 330 because it was taking on water, the one that made a distress call that is recorded but very garbled

48:57Dave Aronberg:that this Internet sleuth tells us has a full confession to murdering Nolan on it. But now you've got at least two witnesses, reportedly speaking with authorities, adults, who will say, no, no, no, no, Nolan was on Horn Island. as late as 6 p.m. long after the boys left, which should be ballgame. But the question is, will it be ballgame in this wacky world in which we're Internet sleuthing and no explanation is a good one and real facts don't make any difference at all? Matt Murphy. No, it's not going to make any difference in in the real world. What they're going to do this, they're running this through a grand jury.

49:36So a lot of information we still don't have because it's a grand jury process and they're going to it's in it. It's my understanding it's an investigative role for the grand jury, which is one of the options. And they're going to find my prediction is they're going to find that this was a tragic accident at the end. And it'll never be enough for for some people, Megan. And that, for lack of a better term, it really sucks. I've watched the interviews with these kids. At least two of them have gone public. And if you I'd encourage people to watch that. One of them was with a guy named Officer Tatum, who is a police officer.

50:11Brandon Tatum. Yeah. And the guy's great. And he asks all the right questions. And just you watch this kid answering the questions. And it's just he comes off as a broken hearted guy who lost one of his best buddies. And I think that everybody should watch that because it doesn't fit the Ben Crump, Al Sharpton narrative, though. But wait, can I just ask you a question, Dave? As a former prosecutor, what do you mean they can't get the cell phone from the victim's mother, from the decedent's mother? Doesn't she have to turn it over if the cops say we want it or if a grand jury subpoena comes their way?

50:44Yes. That's why I'm surprised. These are reports, so we don't know for sure. I saw reports that they had given the information over, but they still have the phone. So I don't know. But yes, they need to give it over. It's really important, especially with all the misinformation out there. and this case is now starting to give me some of the Duke lacrosse vibes here where you have these kids who are being wrongfully accused in the court of public opinion at the beginning and and the evidence just keeps supporting them every bit that comes out it's so true and they've been open books about you know look at everything we you know they've been talking to the authorities from the beginning they've been totally cooperative every day brings a new accusation against a new kid who was there with their friend nolan or trying to help the guys who had water coming on their boats.

51:25It's really despicable.

51:26Dave Aronberg:Okay, that's it for this panel, you guys. Thank you. A pleasure as always. Up next, our second Kelly's Court panel, and I don't know if you could say better, but equally compelling set of cases for hour two. Don't go away. You don't wait until your house is on fire to install a smoke detector. You don't wait until the wind and rain hammer your windows and the power goes out to prepare for a hurricane. You don't reach for your seatbelt after you've had a crash because after the crash, the hurricane or the house fire, it's all too late. Similarly, you do not wait until the dollar goes to zero before you buy gold.

52:00Dave Aronberg:It's too late then too. So consider diversifying with precious metals right now because you never know what will threaten your savings next. Persistent inflation, we've all been feeling that, a weakening dollar, unexpected financial disruptions, you don't know what's coming, but you can take a preventative step right now. One option, requesting a free info kit on gold from Birch Gold Group. Just text my initials MK to the number 989898. There is no cost, there is no obligation, they're not about pressuring you. You will just get straightforward information on how you can diversify your savings, even an IRA or a 401k if you're interested, with gold.

52:40Dave Aronberg:Birch Gold is a great option to consider. Find out more by texting MK to the number 989898.

52:50While we're on the subject of legal matters, before we get to our next Kelly's Court Cases, I want to bring you a clip of our latest MK Confidential series, which debuted last night. I am so into this story. Through all my listening to Dateline and 48 Hours and all the true crime space, I had never heard of the story of John List. Our series this week is called The Annihilator. He is what is known as a family annihilator from a suburban town in New Jersey in the 1970s. All right, look at this.

53:25Dave Aronberg:Here's a clip. The manhunt for John List starts big and goes nowhere. The murder of an entire family in a New Jersey mansion is national news. And for a while, the whole nation does pay attention. His face goes out on FBI wanted posters into police stations and pharmacies across the country describing him, among other things, as reportedly a neat dresser. The Bureau takes the case because a killer who has crossed a state line is federal business. Detectives in Westfield build a theory around the kind of man they believe he is. someone so bound to his church and his routines that sooner or later he will have to surface at some Lutheran church in some quiet town.

54:10Dave Aronberg:They settle in to wait for it. Okay, so let me tell you something. Doug and I have been listening to this. Now, we are now at the point where it's like, we're like, hey, be quiet. We need to hear this. I've tracked the series. I've edited all the scripts. I have a great team actually doing the producing, but I am into this one. Uh, so check it out. Put me to the test. Okay. To see if you agree with me. Episode two hits tonight. Episode one's only at the, each one is a half an hour. We've been airing them in evenings at 9 PM. Uh, they get released as a podcast and on our YouTube feed as well. And, uh, so by the end of the week, you'll have, you know, what, I guess two and a half hours of content.

54:49Uh, but you'll hear episode two tonight. If you haven't reached episode one, you can just watch that instead and watch the series along with me.

54:57Dave Aronberg:It's right here on our Megan Kelly podcast feed and YouTube channel as well. I also wanted to tell you that we are waiting at this hour to hear the resolution to the story that we brought you last week about the surrogate McKenna West. Here's a clip of when she was on on Thursday. It was a reassuring conversation that really they wanted a baby. They weren't exactly sure what decision they would make if something came up, but they ultimately just wanted to be parents. And so I felt confident moving forward with them that termination would not be their first choice. Well, McKenna is almost due with this couple's baby.

55:39It's their biological child, but she's carrying it. And they objected. The parents objected to her seeing the pregnancy through to full term because they wanted her to have an abortion at around the 20-week mark. We don't know their names. They're just going under their initials in the lawsuit. But it's because the baby was diagnosed with congenital heart defects, which they view as catastrophic. But we have seen you can live through and actually go on to thrive despite having. And we profiled a story when we interviewed McKenna of a little boy who went through exactly this. He wasn't the only one.

56:21And I understand, look, it's their biological child, but they've involved a third party in the birth of that child, in the having of that child. Without McKenna, they couldn't have this baby. And she does not want to abort this child over birth defects that are survivable, say their medical experts and say the independent research that we've done. So she's now, she's from Alaska and they're in California and the law is much better for them in California. She's now in Texas, McKenna is, with this baby about to come. I mean, he's due in September. She's calling him Gabriel. And she has said to the parents, just let me take him.

57:01If you want to abort him, I'm not aborting him, but if you don't want this child, I'll take him. Her brother volunteered to adopt him. There are many, many families who would be happy to adopt him. Lila Rose of live action has been very instrumental in this whole case. Very, very, very pro-life in a wonderful way. And the parents are fighting because they want to have custody of their child, their biological child, as soon as he's born. And McKenna's worried that they want the custody so that they can give him only comfort care and allow him to die. Now, we don't know whether that's their plan.

57:35We haven't been able to speak with them. We don't know their identities. But that's her fear. And they are litigating. is she wants to be able to call the shots and make sure the child gets, he's gonna need an operation right away. And then two more over the course of his first two years. In any event, it's a very fraught, compelling, emotional, legal fight. And we've been told by the legal teams that we're dealing with over on McKenna's side that they expect a ruling out of a Texas court on what's gonna have to happen when this baby's born, possibly within the hour. So we are monitoring our contacts with them and we'll bring you an update just as soon as we have it.

58:11If not before the end of the show today, then if we have it, we'll bring it to you tomorrow. Praying for a good, I don't know, is that too bold? Result in this courtroom. I really, really hope and pray and I've been praying for these parents too. I really have. I realize in a very difficult situation, but if they don't want to raise a boy who has these problems or deal with these problems or has medical expenses, fear, you know. And I pray they come to the right decision on allowing somebody else to take it on. I'm sure it is too much for just for everybody, but there are willing, loving volunteers who will help.

58:52So hopefully they've received that message and will make a good choice. All right, moving on. This is a story out of Oklahoma that is making national headlines. It's kind of stunning. okay walk through this with me march of 2025 a then 17 year old young man named jesse butler is arrested after two not one but two ex-girlfriends accuse him of rape and of strangling them to the point of unconsciousness one after the other in it's about a six or seven month period claim this happened to them. Butler was at first charged as an adult with 10 felonies, including first degree rape and battery by strangulation.

59:39Very, very serious charges. Here is the body cam video of his arrest. Watch. So we're here. We're obviously going to place you under arrest. There's a warrant for your arrest. We're going to take you to the jail. I told your mom that she can contact a bondsman and you shouldn't be there very long but there just is a process for paperwork and stuff but right now you do have to come with us and I do have to put you in handcuffs so turn around for me.

1:00:24I'll get you out for me. All right. Stay silent. Rick knows about this. Candy's on this. Dad's on his way. We're coming to get you, okay? Stay strong, okay? Say your prayers. Nothing in your silence. What's this? What's this? Hmm. So this young man, Jesse Butler, was facing up to 78 years in prison. But that's before he got the plea deal of all plea deals, thanks to the Oklahoma Youthful Offenders Act, which was passed in 1994, which allows those under 18 who are charged with serious crimes, the only exception is first degree murder, to be prosecuted as juveniles. Now, according to multiple reports, Judge Susan Worthington granted Jesse Butler's request to be certified as a youthful offender.

1:01:15and according to the Payne County Clerk's Office, Judge Worthington then promptly retired. She's gone on to retire. Butler then switched his plea once he was afforded this juvenile

1:01:28Dave Aronberg:offender status from not guilty to no contest and was permitted to complete a rehabilitation plan at home along with 150 hours of community service. His case officially ended last Monday, August 3rd, after a different judge ruled that Butler had complied with the plan and that the court lost jurisdiction when he turned 19 on August 4th. Here is a report from KOCO-TV explaining what happened. This was the moment Jesse Butler walked out of the Payne County courthouse for the final time, closing the chapter on a high-profile sexual assault case that drew public outcry across Oklahoma and the nation.

1:02:07On Monday, a Payne County judge dismissed Butler's youthful offender case one day before his 19th birthday. Butler was granted youthful offender status after initially being charged as an adult, later entering no contest pleas in a case involving the sexual assault of two teenage girls. Monday's hearing was the final review of Butler's rehabilitation plan. The Office of Juvenile Affairs said he completed every requirement. The judge said that left the court with no choice. Under Oklahoma law, his supervision ends when he turns 19 and the court has no authority to extend it. Butler's attorney called it a big day for his client, encouraging him to not look back in a speech that left the victim and the victim's family in tears, prompting an impassioned response from the newly sworn in Payne County District Attorney, who called the attorney's speech a, quote, disingenuous sack of garbage.

1:03:01Oh, okay. We're going to get into the specifics of what's being alleged here and why the two alleged victims are so angry about what's just happened. Let's get into it. We've got Mark Iglars and Jonna Spilboer, hosts of Positively Legal, as well as Phil Holloway, co-host of the MK True Crime Show, along with Dave Ehrenberg, who you saw there, and Ashley Merchant. You can find both shows at MK True Crime. Just go to wherever you get your podcast, type in MK True crime and hit subscribe and on YouTube as well. Same thing. Um, all podcast platforms and on YouTube. All right, guys, great to see you all.

1:03:36So just for the listening audience. So this is what happened here. The two girls are remaining anonymous. They go by LS and KS. They said the abuse took place over several months in 2024. They reported it to a school resource officer in September of 2024, who alerted police according to an arrest warrant affidavit LS, who I think was, yeah, she was the first girl who he dated and allegedly assaulted. He dated her from January to March of 2024. And then it appears he picked up with KS in April or late March of 2024 to September of 2024. So all told, we're talking about from January 2024 to September, about a nine-month period.

1:04:21And the LS was first, then Kim KS is his girlfriend. Okay, here's what LS alleges. She told the detective that they dated, that he frequently, physically and sexually assaulted her. She said he attempted on February 2nd, again, they just started dating the month earlier, attempted to rape her in a vehicle, but was interrupted when a woman approached the car. LS said she believed the woman, quoting here from the affidavit, had heard her yelling, crying and saying no. Butler then allegedly drove to his home where Ellis' car was parked and attempted to rape her again before she managed to escape.

1:04:55Ellis said Butler warned her if she went to the cops, quote, they would both be in trouble. Okay, now it's, I've just got to say, it's February 2nd. I would certainly hope that, God forbid, this kind of thing ever happened to my daughter or any young girl, that there would not be another encounter after February 2nd if that happened. There would be no secondary attempt at anything because this person would be out of your life and under some sort of restraining order and possibly in handcuffs. But she alleges that 27 days after that first alleged assault on February 29th, after she refused to engage in sexual acts with him, that he strangled her to the point of unconsciousness and that when she woke up, he was laughing at her.

1:05:43just just before we get too down too far down the lane of well she must be full of shit because why would she go back to him and allow him this opportunity to potentially put hands on her um the new york post is reporting that this victim had to have surgery because of the strangulation so this is as serious as a heart attack apparently what happened to this girl an attorney for ls did not immediately respond to a request for comment um okay Okay, then chaos comes into Butler's life from March to September, according to the arrest affidavit. Chaos told detectives that in April, again, she started dating him the month before at a drive-in restaurant.

1:06:24Butler tried to touch her without consent. When she refused, he threw her to the ground, scratching her arm and laughed about it afterward. Chaos said she engaged in sexual activities with Butler throughout their relationship, quote, to prevent physical aggression from him. according to the affidavit uh telling the detective she had learned quote what to do and what not to do to keep from being hurt she also described two strangulation incidents she said took place in the summer in the first while she was house sitting for a friend butler strangled her she said until she lost consciousness leaving red marks on her neck days later she said he strangled her again this time again you're like could this possibly be true why would she have another encounter with him after an alleged strangulation?

1:07:05Well, stay tuned because she says days later, he strangled her again, this time filming it on his phone. Investigators later obtained the search warrant for Butler's phone and recovered a video dated August 1st, 2024, that appeared to show him strangling her, KS, until she passed out, according to court filings. In a separate incident described in the affidavit, Butler allegedly dragged KS by the neck and hair from her home to a vehicle in her driveway. So, Jonna, you tell me how any prosecutor with this level of evidence accepted this juvenile status thing and a no contest plea and a little home confinement with a few hours of community service as the punishment.

1:07:52I don't know what exactly we're missing, because certainly the prosecution had an opportunity to try this person as an adult, not just for the sexual assault, but if you have what what you just described, Megan, as an attempted murder, if you ask me on his cell phone, why they would then agree to prosecute him. I put that in air quotes under the youthful offender statue. I don't know if his family is well connected. I don't know if there is maybe behind the scenes. Is there some question about the balance of the evidence that has been put forth, whether they would not have been successful in adult court?

1:08:31These are all the things that the prosecution has to think about when they're making these kinds of charging decisions. But how do you get around? How do you get around a video? That's the part that that is mind boggling to me. And I would like to know from them why they decided to do what they did, despite that kind of evidence. Yes, because our understanding, Mark, is that this wasn't required to afford him the juvenile status. It had to be filed as a motion. And that what the victims are so angry about, among other things, is that the prosecutor's office, while it's now being run by a new DA who's outraged, at the time was with a different person, and that person had to agree.

1:09:12Dave Aronberg:So this was by agreement between the prosecutor and the defense attorney that he would be treated as a youthful offender. And the judge as well could have said, I'm not signing off on this, but did to both that status and then the subsequent legal slap on the wrist. Yeah, we're likely missing something. This guy is a dangerous predator. And I don't think picking up some trash on the side of the road, even for 150 hours, is going to rid him of his violent sexual deviant urges. So we're missing something because it doesn't add up. Generally, I find that prosecutors aren't soft on crime. Every time immediately people start pointing their finger and saying, oh, they're soft or whatever, that's usually not it.

1:09:57There's usually some type of proof issue. There's usually something going on with the case where they say, well, it's kind of weak. At least we'll get him to admit and we'll have him under our eye for a couple of years. The judge, all you had to do was say retirement and then everything made sense to me because no judge, especially one that has to run for reelection. would ever consider this type of deviation. I think it's a miscarriage of justice. Okay. And I just want to say, I'm not 100 % sure that the DA's office agreed to the youthful offender status. It's true that in May of 2025, Butler's attorney filed a motion seeking youthful offender certification and that that was granted.

1:10:39It was granted. That makes sense. And then the DA's office seems to have been telling the victims that he would be subjected to more severe punishment. This is what the allegations, Phil, are that the, hold on, I want to get it correctly, that the victims and their families were told by the DA's office that Jesse Butler would plead guilty and would serve time at a juvie facility in exchange for youthful offender status. However, just before an August 2025 hearing, the families learned that Butler would not agree to plead guilty and would not agree to incarceration at a juvenile facility at all.

1:11:27We don't know who the district attorney was, according to the filing, but we did find out after the fact that it was Laura Austin Thomas who also retired in April. So the DA who handled this, Laura Austin Thomas, has retired, and we believe the judge is retired. And when the victims found out that this was going to be no time served and not a pleading of guilty, but no contest and at-home confinement with a little community service, they both urged the court to reject the plea, saying this is an outrage, this cannot happen. and the newly elected district attorney says he's pissed too. He also objects.

1:12:10So I don't, you tell, you tell me what your take is on how this went down, how this could have possibly gone down. Well, at the risk of sounding too much like a parrot, I have to parrot what my colleagues have said. And there's, there's things that we don't know. Something's missing, or maybe several things are missing from what we know. Now, obviously the recitation of the alleged facts that you went through is horrifying. And if someone's guilty of that, you know, Mark is entirely correct. That's a person who probably should never breathe free air again. And this would be an extreme miscarriage of justice.

1:12:43But what we don't know is whether the prosecutors were asleep at the switch. We don't know if prosecutors were just lazy. We don't know if they were just soft on crime. Or we don't know if they are aware of problems with the strength of their case that we're unaware of. Sometimes evidence is not admissible.

1:13:04Dave Aronberg:You have a strangulation on video with one alleged victim and the other alleged victim needed a surgery to address the strangulation. You're in pretty good territory as a DA. Maybe not, because I've had cases involving rape fantasy sex where people were charged with crimes as it turns out to be not a crime. And our colleague Ashley Merchant and I recently finished a case where the factual allegations, not including the surgery for strangulation, but some of the rest of these facts, including the ages of the parties involved, are strikingly similar. And after a four-year ordeal, a prosecutor who finally took a critical look at the case said, you know what?

1:13:48These witnesses are not credible. We can't prove what we thought we could prove, and the entire thing was dismissed. So I'm not taking sides on this. I'm simply saying we don't know what the prosecutor did and did not know. It could be that they were just sloppy. It could be they were just disengaged and checked out, ready to retire. Or it could be that there was a problem with credibility of some of the witness statements. It could be a problem with maybe the way the police obtained evidence. Maybe some of it was subject to being suppressed. So the prosecutors had to get the best they could do.

1:14:23I'm saying that what we ought to do is try to get some of these people on this program and ask them why. Because I don't really like guessing about it, but I can tell you that there is definitely something missing from this calculation that none of us are aware of. I mean, John, if you're a DA, just to play devil's advocate here, and you're looking at a situation in which the victims, the alleged victims, repeatedly went back to the guy. You know, after they say he attempted to rape me and he attempted to strangle me.

1:14:54Dave Aronberg:and then there's another date and another date and another date and the relationship goes on for more months. It's not great. That is definitely a bad fact for team prosecution. And to Phil's point, unfortunately, this is a weird little like sex fetish trend. I'm not saying these girls agree to it, but it is a thing that we're hearing more and more about this strangulation thing that But unfortunately, guys who have watched too much pornography decide to try on their young girls, the girlfriends and these girlfriends too often. I'm not saying it was the case with these girls, but too often they feel like they have to go along with it because they're not sexy.

1:15:34Dave Aronberg:They're not fun. They're not cool if they're not willing to partake in the latest risky behavior. It's very sad, but it is something we're reading a lot about in the news these days. I mean, if we are playing devil's advocate, sure. At that age, let's assume that these kids, right, 17 years old, are exploring their sexuality. This is not a situation where you have somebody who's been married to someone for 10 years who has been repeatedly beaten, who can't leave because they don't have a job and three kids and that kind of battered woman syndrome. These are teenagers who come and I changed boyfriends like I changed my underwear when I was that age.

1:16:11Like you're not you're not stuck. So why they would have a second date or a third date or not. Could you imagine coming home and saying, oh, hey, mom, hey, dad. Yeah. My new boyfriend tried to choke me. That's what the marks are for. They'd be he'd be dead. He'd be dead. My father would be in jail. I have two points. Go ahead. First, I don't need the image of Jonna changing her underwear. And number two. Yeah, please. None of that. And number two, what bothers me again is it's like Kohlberger all over again, where the parents were saying, this is outrageous. Nobody sat us down and explained this to us.

1:16:50We're blindsided by the plea. That can't happen. Good point. That cannot happen. What do we need to body cam prosecutors going into a room saying, OK, let me explain everything to you here. This cannot happen. And victims are getting victimized all over again. It shouldn't be coming from the prosecutor. I tell you what a smart prosecutor. And we know it's true. Otherwise, you wouldn't have the current DA so pissed off. This is exactly what he said. His name is Jeremiah Gregory. And he said, I cannot undo what has already been done, but I can and will continue to stand as a strong voice for all victims of violent crime and is now saying he's going to refer this to federal prosecutors for review because he thinks there might still be federal charges available.

1:17:37Just as an FYI, some commentators have pointed out that Jesse Butler's family is prominent in the community. He was a popular baseball player at his high school. His father is the former director of operations for the Oklahoma State University football team. The special judge who granted Butler youthful offender status, Susan Worthington, who is now retired, has longstanding ties to OSU. She received two bachelor's degrees there. Again, we don't know whether any of that played any role whatsoever in this. But now that you have new blood on the case, Jeremiah Gregory, the newly elected DA, he sees it differently.

1:18:11I don't know whether he's going to be able to get the feds interested in a case that's all wrapped up in a bow already, Phil. Can I share with you what a smart prosecutor will do when they are looking to either agree to some type of a sweetheart plea deal on an otherwise very egregious set of facts or even a dismissal, like in the case that I was telling you about that Ashley Merchant and I just finished? A smart prosecutor is going to go on the record in open court, and there will be a court reporter taking all of this down, and he or she will say, Judge, these are the factual allegations. However, we've made the following decisions, and here's why.

1:18:47We talked to this victim, and this victim was not able to provide a consistent explanation for prior inconsistent statements. or we looked at this piece of evidence and we decided that it weighed against guilt. Judge, by the way, we've talked to the victims and their families who are opposed to this. However, we are obligated to follow the law and we are obligated to do justice. We're not obligated to do what families of victims want us to do. And here, Judge, is why we are unable to acquiesce to their wishes and put it all out on the record. And that way, shows like this don't really have much to talk about because we know the part that is missing, the thing that we identified at the beginning of the segment.

1:19:35There's something missing. And if the prosecutor were smart and had gone on the record and laid all of this out, then we wouldn't be even probably having this conversation. But that's how a smart prosecutor would handle it. That doesn't fix the problem, Phil. Number one, they'd be blindsided. Those conversations need to be had before they get to court and tell them what the problem is. They need to be having those conversations privately. And then the second thing is when I was a prosecutor, oftentimes you can't really lay out in detail things like I found the victim not to be credible. I found that, you know, you're now you're trashing.

1:20:09It's very dicey. like what you say is you say well judge we can't prove it beyond a reasonable there's code words

1:20:16Dave Aronberg:but it means the same thing we're going to talk about such a memo such a non-prosecution memo in our next case when we come back from break with this wrestler who alleges that she was sexually assaulted by a trans opponent who she says put his fingers in her coochie that's what she that was that's a quote that's her quote mark iaglars i don't know what that means stop it Help me, John. John, help me. What does Megan say? And there was a non-prosecution agreement, or not agreement, but finding there. However, their problems are not yet over, which is why it's on Kelly's court today. Okay, we're going to pause.

1:20:50We will get to that case and more right after this break. Don't go away.

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1:22:06Dave Aronberg:We are back now with Mark Eiglarsh and Jonna Spilbore of Positively Legal on the MK True Crime Network and Phil Holloway as well, who co-hosts the MK True Crime Show. same place. Okay, so here is what's happened. There's this case where a girl wrestler in Washington state claims that she was sexually assaulted by a trans wrestler, a boy posing as a girl in a wrestling match. I'm going to show the video. And while this may just look like a wrestling match to us, the girl who you can see has got the long hair in here is claiming that there was a sexual assault that happened. She's on the bottom here.

1:22:50Dave Aronberg:She is claiming that the boy posing as a girl shoved his fingers up her vagina in the midst of this. And she actually called out at the moment to her mother on the sidelines. He's got his fingers up my coochie. And she says she let him pin her to stop it. And her lawyers say what we're witnessing here is not a wrestling match, but a sexual assault. She was very distressed reportedly when this ended to the point that she went and complained, her mother did, to the school authorities saying, what in God's name? You didn't even tell her that she was wrestling a boy. She thought she was wrestling a girl.

1:23:29Dave Aronberg:There are so many issues with that, separate and apart from the alleged sexual assault. But I mean, in wrestling, obviously the size and natural testosterone of a boy would be something to contend with and put something potentially dangerous for a girl. So the parents are not happy. So what's happened now is because the principal and the athletic coordinator did not report it. They didn't report it. And they're mandatory reporters. If you have a minor who comes to you and says, I was sexually assaulted on school grounds. That's the boy who did it. It's all on tape. He put his fingers inside of me against my will.

1:24:05Dave Aronberg:This was not consented to. you have an obligation to report it. They didn't. And now Pierce County prosecutors out there in Washington have charged the principal and the athletic coordinator of Rogers High School in Puyallup, I don't know how to pronounce P-U-Y-A-L-L-U-P, my apologies to our listeners out there, Washington, with a gross misdemeanor for allegedly failing to notify authorities after Callie Keeler, she's the alleged victim, reported that she had been sexually assaulted by her trans opponent. The principal, this guy Smith, and the coordinator at Collins charged July 21st with failure to comply with the mandatory reporting law.

1:24:43They've both pleaded not guilty.

1:24:46Dave Aronberg:And the law at issue says when any professional school personnel has reasonable cause to believe a child has suffered abuse or neglect, he shall report an incident to the proper law enforcement agency. The report must be made at the first opportunity, but no case longer than 48 hours after there is reasonable cause to believe that the child has suffered abuse or neglect. They say that they waited 55 days before doing it after they'd been informed that Smith, hold on a second, let's see. Yeah, that's Smith. This is one of the defendants, the principal. Smith informed a school resource officer about the incident on January 30th, but was told on December 6th following Keillor filing a school incident report that day.

1:25:29Keillor filed a report two days after her mother asked the wrestling coach for an update on the investigation, and the coach responded that they've shut me out of the situation.

1:25:39Dave Aronberg:So are they doing the right thing in going after these administrators for ignoring this, even though the Pierce County prosecutors have declined to prosecute the transgender wrestler? Shana? Yeah. Do your job. You're a resource officer. You're a mandated reporter by statute. It is not your job to determine whether the facts are true or not. If you have reasonable cause, you must do it. What is reasonable cause? OK, female wrestler comes to you and says this happened. You can see for yourself. You can roll the videotape and see that this is likely to have occurred. Your job is to report it. That's the end of your job.

1:26:21That's the end of your responsibility. Do it. These people didn't. And it is a crime to not report when you are a mandated reporter. I support this prosecution. Frankly, it's not enough. I'm disappointed with the prosecutor that they're not going to prosecute this person. We Phil and I did have a conversation off air about the physics of this, which is interesting. But I believe this female wrestler when she says this happened. Yeah, here's here's what they say, Phil, in that. This is the non-prosecution memo by the DA, who writes a letter to Detective Thompson, who investigated it. Because they were evaluating two things.

1:27:05Dave Aronberg:Did they have a mandatory duty report, and can they be prosecuted for this misdemeanor offense and not reporting it, the administrators? And secondly, were they correct not to charge the transgender wrestler with assault or sexual assault? And this speaks to that second issue, I guess, well, just the second issue. The prosecution writes to the detective, thanks for thoroughly interviewing the many witnesses to the incident, particularly those involved in the sport itself. As that's the correct inquiry, as someone who has no history with wrestling, I was unaware that touching in the area of genitals and buttocks is somewhat common, including the sensation that an opponent may be penetrating genitals.

1:27:41Dave Aronberg:OK, I detect a woke ass Washington D.A. I'm just going to say it. The sensation that one is penetrating genitals. I'm sorry, but women know if their genitals are getting penetrated or not. What the fuck is this? Thank you. Going to keep going. Apparently, according to the athletic director for Rogers High School, Peter Collins, this is one of the guys charged this practice or sensation is common enough to have a nickname in the wrestling community, which she claims it or he claims. I don't know if this is a male or female. D.A. is oil checking in wrestling circles. The referee who presided over the match appears to have said that, well, nothing stood out to him during the match.

1:28:21Dave Aronberg:After watching the video of the match, he could not say that the suspect's hand placement was, quote, anything out of the ordinary, that it seemed as though the suspect was attempting to put the victim in a half Nelson and appeared to be attempting to lift the victim's leg to try to turn her to her back. And that sometimes in the course of a match, it just, you grab what you can grab. That's something that happens in almost every match. You get fingers up your vagina in almost every fucking bullshit. This is bullshit. I smell fucking woke administrators who are trying to cover for a trans athlete.

1:28:52Dave Aronberg:That's my own personal opinion, Phil Holloway. Well, look, I think that the school should have reported it. I think that the statute was triggered. There are some wiggle words in there like reasonable belief and all this. But if you look, if you listen to the female athlete, she makes the claim. She's very specific. She makes an outcry apparently in the moment to her mom and she surrenders the match. You can look at the video, and while you can't see specifically, thank God, what the fingers are doing, you can see that the fingers are in the area anatomically of where they would be to basically corroborate her claim.

1:29:33So I think they should have immediately made the report. And look, if you have that type of corroboration, the police had to do more than give this the old whitewash. It is true, and my son is a high school wrestler, and it is true that it can be a very intimate sport. There's a lot of grabbing. There's a lot of touching. And by definition, you know, there's lots of physical contact that if it had occurred out on the street somewhere, it would be a crime. But in the wrestling arena, it's not. But you don't consent to a sexual assault simply because you enter into the wrestling ring or you step on a basketball court or anything else.

1:30:13And so this deserved a proper investigation. It deserves prosecutors who are willing to look for a viable prosecution, not just say, look, this is why we can't prosecute. It's like they were going out of their way to justify why they just couldn't possibly prosecute this male for sexually assaulting this female. I think she deserved her day in court and she didn't get it.

1:30:41Dave Aronberg:But, I gosh, let me say, let me let me set it up for you like this. This non-prosecution memo that the D.A. wrote talks about how, well, there are other cases. There's another case in which they found that a basketball player consented to, you know, basically getting punched in the face by their opponent by playing basketball because it's very contact sport. You know, these things can happen. You can't really sue for assault after the fact or ask for a criminal prosecution. That is after the fact. Okay, so that's what she's kind of basing this off of. Again, I'm saying she, but I don't know if it's a woman.

1:31:14Dave Aronberg:However, it is a woman. Okay, this does not apply. This logic doesn't apply because there is another distinct possibility here. And I'm sorry to be the one to break it to this DA, but men posing as women, the vast majority of them are autogynophiles. Autogynophiles. And what that means is it's a sexual fetish. It's not actually a gender confusion issue. It's a sexual fetish. They get turned on by dressing as women and being around women and posing as women in front of women and making women watch and participate in their fantasy. And we should not confuse sexuality with gender. You can be an autogynophile male who likes doing this and perfectly hetero.

1:31:58Dave Aronberg:OK, it doesn't mean you're not necessarily gay. so you can get turned on by women and want to have sex with women and still want to dress like a woman and claim you're a woman, all right? So there is a very real possibility that this so-called trans wrestler is an autogynophile, was turned on by wearing the women's singlets, wrestling against a woman, pretending to be a woman, and that sticking his fingers up the coochie was actually very much part of his whole sexual fetish slash fantasy that this prosecutor made absolutely no allowance for because, of course, the knee jerk instinct would be trans people don't do anything wrong ever.

1:32:42Dave Aronberg:Only bitchy young women make shit up about their coochies. OK, so you put a lot out there, Megan, and I have some thoughts and some I'm going to take a lot of crap from you and Johnna from in just a moment. All right. So first, let's start off with, I don't agree with the statement that the prosecutors put out there, and I find it a little offensive. And their words were, any harmful and offensive touching slash penetration was a direct byproduct of the game. And this type of behavior is sufficiently common as to be foreseeable. Now, if they're lumping in sexual assaults where someone actually digitally penetrates someone, I find that to be offensive.

1:33:21And I think it's different than a foul at the rim in basketball. OK, so we start there. The second thing is I want to put my son in that wrestling onesie. And I don't know that much about wrestling, but let's say it's him wrestling someone else. And someone claims that he digitally penetrated them some way. Right. We start the analysis with there's a difference between believability and accuracy. You jumped on the a girl would know for sure. Megan, we don't know this particular girl. We don't know what actually happened. A girl knows. Hold on. Hold on. I don't disagree. A girl knows if someone's fingers are in her vagina.

1:34:04I got I don't disagree. What I'm saying is proving that to a jury under these circumstances, OK, is a very strong, strong challenge.

1:34:16Dave Aronberg:The no, it isn't administrator. One second. All right. My vagina had nothing in it. The next second there were fingers in there. Right. Case closed. That's all you need. Well, listen, it's possible that she either believes it or said it because she was losing the match and she wanted to save face and say this man. That is possible. This man. Thank you. I'm just looking at motives again. Pretend it's your own offspring. And all of a sudden you have a different thought process on it. OK. Yeah. No, I don't know this girl. I don't know whether she's 100 percent telling the truth or not. OK, there we go.

1:34:49So I do believe in the mandatory reporting. that it's not for them to evaluate who's telling the truth, who's not. Report it right away. They screwed up. And the good news is now there'll be a ripple effect and administrators won't be slow to do that. They know they can wind up a guest of the pokey. OK, but I'm not 100 percent sure that this is a case that could be proven beyond into the exclusion of every reasonable doubt under those circumstances. Against the trans player. Megan. Take out trans. You're so blinded by the whole trans thing, Megan. I just take. Let's say it's a female. Let's say it's a female.

1:35:25It's relevant. It's relevant. Female on female.

1:35:27Dave Aronberg:It's not a female. What are you saying? What? It's not a female. It's one female and one fake female. I'm saying whatever I'm saying here would apply to a female on a female and a male on a male. You still have to have beyond a reasonable doubt. You're adding this stuff about trans. It's relevant that it's a dude. It is relevant that it's a dude. And poor And this poor girl did not even know she was wrestling against a dude, which changes. I mean, imagine her confusion. This is kind of what the ADF has been suggesting. She thought another girl was sexually assaulting her, Phil. And only after the fact did she find out they subjected her to a male with all that implies without her consent.

1:36:05You know, to Mark's point, a jury can convict someone simply on the testimony of one witness, if that witness is believable, if they believe one witness. So you don't need mountains and mountains of evidence. What you need is you need a prosecutor who's willing to give her her day in court. You've got the statement on its face. It makes out a crime. It's corroborated by what you see in the video. true you can't see exactly where the fingers are but you can see that they are in generally the right place um to corroborate the the do a half nelson phil come on well and look you don't you don't consent to sexual assault well of course simply because you simply because you go into the wrestling ring phil i want to challenge you how does that video support the prosecution's theory any more than it supports the defense that they're in the middle of a match and the hands are going down there for a different model.

1:37:02It supports the girl's claim because it shows the other wrestler's hand in the crotch area, which is how you achieve the sexual assault that was being collected. Isn't it also how you do a half Nelson? Does anybody have a problem with the fact that they claim... That's what the defense can say at trial, but the jury can convict based on this. They coined a phrase, they called it checking the oil. That's a term of art in this fucking sport? Are you kidding me right now? Like, what would have happened if this female wrestler grabbed this boy's penis and bent it in half. What is that called? Breaking the penis?

1:37:35I mean, what is it called? Like, how do you have a term of art called checking the oil and then not believe this girl when she claims that there... I hope you're not asking me that question because I didn't come up with that term of art. I've never heard of such. I think it's a crime. Hey, John, would you invest your entire 401k, your entire retirement, that this actually was penetration versus the hand being there and him trying to achieve a wrestling move. And she believes, or made up, that the hand went into her versus was just there trying to achieve a wrestling move. I know the answer to that.

1:38:11None of you believe it. Well, nobody is going to bet their 401k on anybody else's. Oh, nice to talk on air, but not put your money away. Oh, stop it. Doesn't it prove anything she doesn't get better retirement? You too, Megan. You go, John. Put up your money. Come on.

1:38:25Dave Aronberg:This is you trying to climb out of the hole. There's no hole. Maybe she didn't know whether the fingers were in the coochie. Ladies who are out there, have you ever not known whether the fingers were in the coochie? I think we've all known. You have no right to opine on this, Eichlarsh. There's no coochie whatsoever in the Eichlarsh suit. You don't know. This may be the strangest four box I've ever found myself in on any program ever. Bending the dipstick. That's what I'm going to call it. Bending the dipstick. Bender, bender. Yes, bending the dipstick. Whatever. any one of those works. Well, I think we're in agreement that the DA is doing the right thing in going after these mandatory reporters who did not do the mandatory reporting.

1:39:08Dave Aronberg:And we are in disagreement on this ridiculous prosecution memo about why he didn't go forward. But I do agree with you, Iaclarsch, that having said all that, I don't know what the credibility of Callie is. That's that is something that needs to be evaluated. It is possible she was just losing the match and made something up. I don't mean to impugn her. I'm just saying I'm open-minded to that. I'd like to hear the actual substantive defense as opposed to, yeah, this happens all the time in wrestling. Oil change, oil change. No, I don't believe it. I don't believe it. Sounds like woke prosecutors to me.

1:39:43Dave Aronberg:All right. Now, Phil, I think has to go. If not, Phil, stick around, because I do want to get to Perez Hilton and one other case on the backside of this. So we're going to hold over into the next hour for just a bit. Phil, if you do have to go, thanks for being here. When it comes to supplements, there are two things that matter, that it works and that you can trust it. Rather than just tell you about Relief Factor, we often bring you what their real customers have to say. Like me, I have to say great things about Relief Factor because it's helped me repeatedly. One customer, Jim, said he ran out of Relief Factor twice and both times his aches, stiffness, and pain came back.

1:40:17Dave Aronberg:Once he restarted it, he says he felt better again. As Jim puts it, quote, you know something's working when you run out of it. They make it easy to find out if you will be the next person telling Relief Factor about how much it helps you tackle your daily aches and pain. Three weeks for just$17.76. Simply go to relieffactor.com or call 1-800-4-RELIEF. You will connect with their friendly local team and they will do everything they can to help you. And maybe you'll be sharing your story with them soon too. Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM.

1:40:55Dave Aronberg:It's called the Megan Kelly Channel and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered with no agenda and no apologies. Along with the Megan Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news only on the Megan Kelly Channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

1:41:22Dave Aronberg:We're back now with a host of Positively Legal, Mark Eiglarsch and Jonna Spillbore. You can find new episodes every Wednesday on the MK True Crime podcast feed and YouTube channel. You can see why I love them so much. Mark Eiglarsch always likes to mix it up and keeps things interesting. And Jonna takes no shit from anyone. I'm not here to kiss your ass. Come on, let's go. Mark, I was telling Steve Krakauer during the break on one of our early Kelly's courts back in the day, and there was some case involving someone having relieved himself in the most vile of ways publicly and we were going back and forth and your opponent said there was no duty to warn and you said oh there was a duty i i i would agree that it sounds like something i would say yeah still to this day nine out of nine out of ten ones we did were about strippers right who inadvertently something injured someone Money grabs.

1:42:19Dave Aronberg:Yeah. But now we're on to much more serious matters. Okay. And that brings me to Perez Hilton. I don't, this, the video was so disturbing. I don't know if you guys saw it. I wasn't on TikTok when I saw it. I was on X and it like clips of it were being recirculated. It was this time last week where Perez Hilton appears to have engaged in some sort of attempt at self-harm. Can't say it more definitively than that, because what I saw was somebody who appeared to be covered in blood. I didn't see actual cuts, but I'm sure, I mean, I believe that he had harmed himself in some way and he was looked bloody and was threatening suicide.

1:42:59Dave Aronberg:And then the professionals arrived. They said that they were not barging in because they didn't want to provoke him, but eventually like negotiated him to a place where they were able to take him to the hospital. And he's been in the hospital. His family came out with a statement saying he needs surgery, though they didn't say what that's for. And now we get word that his mother, he's a single dad. He had these three kids who are all very young via surrogate. There's no mother in the picture. He's a gay man. His mother now wants custody of the three kids. But the reason I'm bringing it to you guys is there is a real question now circulating in legal circles and by some online who witnessed the video about whether there might be a lawsuit against TikTok, because what happened was it's sort of bizarre.

1:43:49Dave Aronberg:They the TikTok automated system flagged Perez Hilton's stream within minutes and even removed subsequent streams, reports The Guardian. But then a TikTok spokesperson told Deadline that a, quote, moderator error caused a delay in shutting down the live stream. after the automated moderation systems flagged it for removal and therefore it was on the air live for some 15 minutes which is a long time i mean i i was watching just the clips over on x which had grabbed virtually all of it thinking how did this air like i like on youtube we can't air like a public shooting or you know violence without it getting stricken like immediately how how could it air on tiktok and this is apparently how some for some reason a human being seems to have overruled the moderated the automated moderation and that's how it went out so you know mark there's got to be some host of lawyers out there rubbing the hands together because tiktok is very very successful a lot a lot of money deep pockets saying you might be immunized against random things like if somebody says something on tiktok that's not true you can't get sued for defamation.

1:45:11Dave Aronberg:But you did something yourself here that could potentially make you my target. Yeah. The argument is you've got a defective product. Right. And first, it's amazing that this aired. People are so worried when they're speaking on these platforms to not even like say the S word. They say I'm alive himself. And at first I was like, why are they using that? Oh, I get it. So it's one thing to police content. You know, people do live streams all the time and it would be impossible to impose that burden on any of these companies to immediately stop what they're saying. but if they have a defective product that allows this not only to go out, but then to hit all these people whose algorithm attracts this type of stuff.

1:45:59But the problem is, even if for some reason you can successfully sue, what are the damages? The people who are attracting this type of stuff because of their algorithm, I'm getting fishing shows. I'm getting cute puppies, right? So I'm not getting this stuff. I'm getting hair tricks, all that. Yeah. Shoes and, and, and, and, right. And wine. So that's Jonna, right? People who are attracting this stuff. My guess is they've seen some things. Their skin's a little thicker. It's going to be tougher to prove damages.

1:46:33Dave Aronberg:I want to make one complaint. The hair videos that I am getting are so cute. And I, I've never tried a single one of them. I just look at other, they make the cutest ponytails look so easy, but I've actually never tried a single one of them if I'm honest, but I enjoy watching them and thinking someday, someday. So John, I guess the cause of action, you could potentially filed what like a class action for intentional infliction. I mean, if you want to do negligent infliction of emotional distress, typically courts require some bit of physical injury that goes with it. You can't just have pure emotional damages.

1:47:09Dave Aronberg:There's not going to be any physical injury. So you've got to go you've got to go intentional infliction. And if there was an actual human making an actual decision to override the automation, and that's a big if, you know, the Guardian's reporting possibly. Maybe you're getting there or you're at least getting to the point where a company like TikTok might settle. Yeah, I'm with Mark when I can't really figure out what the damages would be if there is a bridge to some sort of legal liability. But I do think this is something that perhaps there are going to be class action lawyers who want TikTok to be punished.

1:47:43And we've seen that before with social media companies where they have to pay millions and millions of dollars. We won't see it, but it's a way to make sure that they don't create the same situation in the future. And I got to say, I would be exploring if I were the government, whether that human error was, in fact, intentional because 15 minutes is a lifetime. time and how, you know, these algorithms and all the extra stuff they have going on behind the scenes, which is just so amazing. How did one human override that for such a long period of time if there wasn't some sort of disgusting, gross intent there?

1:48:19So there's there's some legal stuff that is going to fly. I just don't know if we're going to get the benefit of it. But something seriously went wrong. I'm not sure what Jonna just said. Is she alleging that someone from TikTok, because that's that's the only way you get a lawsuit here. Someone from TikTok had some nefarious objective and overrode their system to allow people to be exposed for. Yeah, I mean, if you can prove that, you're really in business. That's a little fantasy. I don't know. That's right. But that's fantasy. That's where I would be looking. Someone from TikTok, a representative of the company, which is what you'd need, I think, somehow said, this is going to be my prize to the public.

1:49:0015 minutes of his. I don't see.

1:49:03Dave Aronberg:I don't see that coming. And I don't see TikTok actually paying. Are you going to bet your 401k that that's not going to come? Why do you bring money into it, John? What's the matter with you? If not, there's no case. Yeah. OK, I want to keep going because the aspect of the mother and his sister, too, reportedly getting ready to seek custody of the children. And I will tell you up front, I've only seen this in InTouch magazine, which I've seen many, many things about myself that are untrue in that magazine. So just take it with a grain of salt. They're reporting that his mother and sister will seek custody of his three children amid his mental health crisis.

1:49:38Dave Aronberg:His kids are 13, 11, and eight. And I wonder whether you think this will be granted, whether this, if this is true, does this have any chance of getting granted? Because I'm going to show you the video of Perez. We've blurred it. But let's just put it on the board. Viewer warning, you will see what looks like a red man because he's covered in blood, but we've blurred it. And he's sort of making noises that are almost akin to like sexual pleasure, like groans, positive groans, as he appears to cut himself with a long blade. Yeah, it's dark. and the reports are that his children left the house shortly before this happened.

1:50:21Dave Aronberg:I don't know that he sent them away, that he told his mother to take them or what happened, but they weren't in the home. It would be much easier, I think, to get those kids if they were in the home. But obviously the guy's had serious depression for a long time. He's on record as saying that. And I just wonder what you think the chances are that a court, because of this, or he says on the tape that he's thinking about killing himself, would say you're not in any condition to raise these children and your kids are going into the custody of your mother and sister. Well, I think 100 percent. Right now, he shouldn't be near any children, especially his own.

1:51:00And I feel for him, he's clearly got mental illness. And I think it's in the best interest of the kids, which is the standard, to be with family members who love them and would look after them. And I think that his mother is probably the strongest choice.

1:51:15Dave Aronberg:Temporarily, though, right? Not permanently, Jonna? Temporarily, for sure, until he gets help, until he gets better, until he proves to a family court that he is no longer a threat to himself or others and that they can reunite the family. But that temporary order can be quite a long time in a case like this. It should be. It should be a long time. Yeah, because that's clearly not well. I saw something online last night, and I've said before, I said when this broke last week, that I have nothing but empathy for what Perez may be going through here with the mental health crisis. But I do think this is the natural culmination of a life on the internet in which your business is cruelty.

1:51:57Dave Aronberg:His business has been cruelty. I mean, he's just been slinging really serious barbs and arrows at celebrities from the beginning of his career. It's not, I don't think there's anything redeeming about what he does. I also think, you know, it's, you can do it. It's America. Like we do have shit stirrers who are out there and always have. But I do think there are real psychic prices to pay if that's how you spend your time. And it caught up with Perez Hilton. That's my own view. But I thought this was interesting. There's somebody who's in the business of photography who says he knew Perez or at least photographed him once and hung out with him another time.

1:52:34Dave Aronberg:He's a photographer named Scott Michael Nathan. and I'm going to show you a little bit of what he said and tell you about some more. Watch this. Perez Hilton. People have been asking me to weigh in on this guy and I was on the fence. I worked with the guy. I photographed Perez for the cover of a magazine. I think it was TV guy, but I'm not positive. And I can tell you from personal experience, he was a first class a-hole. He wasn't misunderstood. He was not edgy. He was not a brave independent journalist speaking truth to power. He was a nasty, fat, mean gay guy named Mario Lavendera. And I know exactly what his brand was because I watched it from the front row.

1:53:12His entire business model was built on other people's humiliations, celebrity addictions, their divorces, their breakdowns, their bad photographs, their relationships, their bodies, their mistakes, their worst effing moments. He drew dicks on the faces of minors. He turned other people's pain into content and content into millions of dollars. Wow. I don't want him eulogizing me.

1:53:41Dave Aronberg:Well, there's no eulogy necessary, but he posits that he's not even sure this is real, that there's a possibility, at least, that this is some sort of a stunt possibly to attract attention now the family's saying he needed surgery they're they're saying they're relieved he can speak somewhat so the family would have to be going along with the whole thing and i just don't think that that's what's happening i think it's real but i can't rule out given the way perez has spent the past 15 years that there might be some element of a stunt he's been in the business of pitching reality shows donna to you know network after network.

1:54:19Dave Aronberg:They haven't been getting picked up. Rob Shooter was reporting this that like he couldn't get anything, you know, in writing. He couldn't cut any deals with any of these reality TV show producers. You know, they kind of string them along and then let them down, whereas he has been on reality shows in the past. And it did occur to me that. If any of that is true, it could be a defense to him in a custody battle, right? Like if if this were a stunt, that would be a great defense to the custody battle. It would be a very embarrassing chapter for him publicly. And again, for the record, I don't think it was a stunt.

1:54:58Dave Aronberg:But what do you make of it? Could have been a stunt. But I also think we can't rely on what his parents are saying. And here's why his parents are only going to know what he provides. Why? Because HIPAA isn't going to let the parents have a straight line between what's going on with him medically, physically, and what's actually going on. So that could be part of the stunt. He's telling this stunt. He's telling the parents, oh, yeah, I've got to get surgery. I tried to cut my balls off or whatever the hell he did off camera that we couldn't see. But we don't know that that's true. And if it was a stunt, I can also see a family court judge saying that is such a messed up stunt that we still think you should be divested of your children for a period of time until we make sure that you are wrapped as tight as you need to be to be a good parent.

1:55:40I could see that. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

1:55:43Dave Aronberg:That's a good point. You agree, Mark? Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up. I was one of the things I was thinking, like, could this be a stump? But I wasn't going to articulate it, particularly because it would be extremely painful if this truly is what it looks like it is. But I'm glad you brought it up. I think it's based upon what he's done in the past, what he's about, what he wants for the future. I think it's relevant to throw it into the discussion. well i'm sure we're going to get more updates from this family um and i just like i don't i don't know can i would i state my retirement on the the it's definitely not being a stunt no i wouldn't i there's very few things in the news i would state my retirement on i really thought that james tallarico was going to go down in flames in that senate race down in texas and he still might but that thing's tighter than i ever predicted it would be and And by the way, he's pulling ahead of Ken Paxton.

1:56:38Dave Aronberg:I realize he's got his own problems. I'm just saying like, not all of my predictions come true, which is sad for me, but life in the fast lane. So it goes. Before I let you go, I want to ask you one question about Nolan Wells in that case. You guys have been covering this. Yes, on Positively Legal, you know, like the latest. And how the Ben Crumps and the Al Sharptons are really trying to tar these white kids who are friends with Nolan with murder based on nothing. Based on nothing. Well, now Brandon Tatum has interviewed a couple of adults, including this lawyer, Edward Paitsik, who says the following, because let's not forget the boat that they're really zeroing in on that the Internet sleuths say included a distress call saying Nolan was dead at 430 that afternoon.

1:57:25Dave Aronberg:So they say it there was a murder, allegedly, and it went down by 430. And you can hear the boys allegedly if you really garble the language or play the tape backward. You can hear the confession that by 430, Nolan's dead. And they're not really recognizing that the CTO company they're calling has already got them on tape. And you can hear their exclamations in the background. None of this is verified. I don't believe one word of it. But here is lawyer Edward Pacek to Officer Brandon Tatum changing the timeline considerably on when Nolan was last seen alive. Sot 16. Morgan, Warren and Jax left the island at about 430 p.m.

1:58:04That's it. They were gone. That is not open for debate. So that's a fact. They were gone. And at that time, Nolan Wells was still alive. Now, I'm not going to name them out of respect for their privacy, but just as one example, there are two very fine, upstanding members of the Ocean Springs community who saw Nolan Wells at about 10 minutes to 6 p.m. So about an hour and a half after these fine young men had left the island, they were gone, departed, Nolan Wells was alive. and these two witnesses, two very reliable, very credible, and very upstanding members of the community, they saw Nolan and they've known Nolan for years.

1:58:57There's no chance that they made a mistake. And by the way, this can be corroborated through other evidence, other eyewitness accounts. And that's the end of it right there.

1:59:10Dave Aronberg:And I reported the first hour I have reason to believe the same. I've come by similar information about two independent adult witnesses who knew Nolan who can place him on the island as late as 10 of 6 that night long after these boys had left the island and long after they're allegedly on tape confessing that he was dead which is just an internet bullshit interpretation of some tape that is garbled and indecipherable. where they called the CTO for a toe. Shanna, what do you make of it? Well, I mean, it adds to the intrigue of this case, along with some other things that I still can't wrap my mind around either, which is why we don't have Nolan's phone, because the mother apparently won't turn that over, which is, isn't that going to be a huge piece of evidence here?

2:00:00I mean, this is a mystery. This is truly a mystery. It's going to have to. They're going to get it one way or another, and then you have to make sure. I know that you can't fully destroy things. You know, they're stored in the cloud, thankfully. But what if your son is dead and you don't really know what happened? Wouldn't you want to hand over everything you possibly could to get to the bottom of it? Like there's so much mystery surrounding this and everybody's quick to point the fingers at the other two boys. But there are a lot of unanswered questions and they don't seem to be getting answered anytime soon.

2:00:31Dave Aronberg:It does concern me if she has that phone and is not releasing it. And that's what Sarah Fields is reporting. It's not confirmed by the family, as far as I know. Why wouldn't she want the authorities to have Nolan's phone so that a full forensic analysis of it and what has happened on it, both prior to Nolan's death and after, could be conducted? That's one question, Mark. And the other question is how critical these two witnesses who can place Nolan on the island at almost 6 p.m. will be to the investigators trying to figure out what happened. I shall start with question number one. I do believe that, well, first of all, I want to start with, you know, they said that he drowned after staying behind on the island with some girl that he found attractive.

2:01:21There was a strong current. I've yet to hear why that's not the case. I missed that whole thing. You know, did anybody, you, Megan, Jonna, hear of anything that says that it's inconsistent with that? Nothing stood up on my back of the neck when I heard that story. I'm like, OK, no, he wouldn't leave his friends behind. He wouldn't go. He's a teenager. There's a girl giving him some attention. He hangs with her. He jumps in the water, strong current. He dies. That absolutely could happen. I don't know how we make it about race. All right. Back to your questions. The first one was I think number two, I remember, was the time.

2:01:57Yeah, that's extraordinary. Stop blaming these damn kids. They weren't even there. They left them behind because the kid wanted to stay behind. And then that's it. And the first one was the phone. Right. Yeah. Look. Yeah. Let me say this. I understand either there's something that they don't want law enforcement to see as it relates to this or what's extremely likely is I wouldn't want anyone to have my kid's phone. There's stuff on there, even unrelated to this, that may make them look a little less angelic. And right now that kid to a certain, you know, group of people in this community, you know, is angelic.

2:02:33You don't want his his name to be sullied by text and things that might be unrelated like people have on their phone, you know, between friends. So as a former prosecutor,

2:02:43Dave Aronberg:I want it. You the prosecutions. But they're going to get it, aren't they? Like, how can the mother say I'm not giving like I want you to investigate this? I want you to tell me everything that happened to my son. But no, you can't have his phone. They're going to get a subpoena. There's going to be a grand jury proceeding happening very soon. We think they should. And they should. They're going to get a subpoena and they're going to get that phone. And check everything that allegedly was deleted because nothing's ever deleted. And see what what she didn't want you to see. And they might get other people.

2:03:09Dave Aronberg:And see whether she deleted anything after after he turned up dead. Go ahead, John. When they get his phone, that's probably going to lead them to get other people's phones. So when they figure out who he was last communicating with and what was being said. So, you know, it's going to come out. It's going to come out. And I would want to know if I were his parent, how my kid died. Why didn't he just drown? Why didn't he just drown? Somebody answer me, please. Why didn't he just drown? Maybe he did. That's probably what happened. That's probably what I think happened. Little teenage drinking. Maybe there was alcohol or some other substance that the toxicology will show us what was in a system.

2:03:44Dave Aronberg:Right. And even a strong swimmer, when there's a current, this place is known for having strong rips, especially if there's intoxication, can drown and it can happen quickly. Sadly, it can happen really quickly. But one of my frustrations is, God forbid somebody actually did do something to Nolan Wells. If somebody, and in my mind, and I have no idea whether this is right, it's not a nefarious thing if somebody else is involved. it's like an accidental thing you know like somebody was negligent and not seeing that he was going down or maybe somebody gave him the alcohol or the drugs and then didn't keep a good eye on him um again we don't have any confirmation that he was drunk or on drugs just to i mean this is speculation um if if that's what happened then we're focused on the wrong people because his friends were long gone you know that the obsessive need to tar these boys who loved nolan with his murder is really, I think, keeping us focused on the entirely wrong things and potentially entirely wrong people.

2:04:46Dave Aronberg:There is an investigation to be had here. It's just what we've learned so far is that it does not revolve around the boys who were his friends. It's fine to look into them, but now we have, and they have a very good, compelling, verifiable story, and the internet sleuth community should move forward and keep keep going if they must not you know if they insist on not leaving this in the hands of law enforcement you know you know i'd like to hear you know i'd like to hear and i don't think i'll ever get it is if crump and those with him investigate this and then they learn the following and they say the following if this is the truth you know what we thought it might have been a race issue it wasn't he really did drown Oh, I know.

2:05:30I know. But but that would give a little bit of credibility. You know, just I'll bet my 401k on that will never happen.

2:05:38Dave Aronberg:I say same, same, actually. Oh, all right, guys. Great to see you both. Martin and Jonna, you're wonderful. Everybody check them out on Positively Legal. If you just Google Positively Legal or MK True Crime in your podcast search bar, you will find it. YouTube, same. We are back tomorrow with Emily Jashinsky. Looking forward to that. See you then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.