Luigi Mangione's Suppressed Evidence, Mackenzie Shirilla’s "Crash" Doc - "Positively Legal" with Mark Eiglarsh and Jonna Spilbor

26:46Welcome back to Positively Legal. and we are so privileged right now to have joining us Jenny Burton. She's a systems change agent. She's host of the Modern America channel. She's also the author of the book, The Gabriel Plan. Jenny, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. We are extremely grateful for your time. Thank you. Yeah, thank you guys so much for having me. All right. So we got to start at the beginning. And I'm going to go on record and say you never had a chance, girl. I feel so sorry for what you went through, although I know that that's what made you the person you are today.

27:29But let's start as a child. What the heck happened? Yeah, arguably, it's exactly what was supposed to happen. So I was born and forged for such a time as this. And I was born to drug addict parents, I mean, in the long and short of it. And though I compared my life to TV shows, God had a different plan for me. and so how bad was it i mean they were obviously not doing what they were supposed to do but what were you witnessing in the household what were you um you know subjecting yourself to uh unwillingly because that wasn't your choice no definitely wasn't my choice um my my house was raided when i was four years old my dad was taken to prison uh shortly after that my mom um her life sort of cascaded into despair and destruction.

28:26I think it felt good to her in the beginning because, you know, we're all building the plane as we fly it. And so suggesting that my parents should have done something differently would suggest that they had a different skill set than what they had. So I think that they were functioning from the foundation that they were skilled in. And And fortunately, when you put drugs, chaos, love and children in the same space, you get exactly what that kind of mixture would suggest. And, you know, what I got was a crash course in strength, really, and a real, real college education in the, I think, the real existence of humanity without, you know, the luxuries that we have been conditioned to participate in here in the United States.

29:18And so for a long time, I thought my life was happening to me and I didn't realize that it was happening for me. And today I just have a very different experience. And, you know, I'm so grateful for the entire thing. My mom and my dad both died in the same way in which they lived, which was in, you know, the outcomes of long term drug and alcohol abuse. And, you know, there are a plethora of things that go along with that. And like I said, I'm just grateful for it. Weren't they the ones who got you involved in drug use? Not just because of their behavior, but they actively got you involved. Tell us about that.

30:00Yeah, my mom did. She introduced drugs to me. I was seven years old. I think it made it easier for her to participate in some of the things that she was. And in order for her kids not to say anything, she introduced them to us. And, you know, though I did not like the way that they felt, what I realized was that they provided an escape from the chaos that was very frightening. And, you know, eventually, just like any other condition that we struggle with as human beings, they became patterns of behavior that provided me opportunity to, you know, move around in the environment that I was in. And they served me until they didn't.

30:39Were there any good childhood memories? Oh, I mean, yeah. And let me just say, I think it's really important to note that because outsiders tend to perceive addiction as just a place of desperation and suffering, arguably, people wouldn't stay in those conditions if they didn't provide some sort of escape. So, you know, it wasn't like just this terrible experience the entire time. There were definitely things that were hard and very frightening. But, you know, yes, I mean, I had six brothers and sisters. We got the opportunity to explore and be free. I mean, I grew up in the 80s. There was definitely violence and fear that came along with all of the life experiences.

31:22But, you know, I have a lot of fond memories that I can reflect on, even with my mom, who was my first abuser, et cetera, et cetera. you know, we grew up together. And just the way that I see it now is just very different than the way that I saw it when I was in the midst of it. I had an expectation for a long time for my mom to do something that she didn't have the skill set to do. And, you know, and again, I just want to talk about gratitude. I'm really grateful for it today because what I get the opportunity to do today is teach people how to live differently than their patterns of behavior, if that makes sense.

31:58Yeah. I got to ask you. Sorry, Mark. I got to ask you something because your story is is remarkable and so much different than people who suffer very similar to you. Right. Not not everybody breaks free from addiction and turns out to to change themselves and change the world for the better. But you did. So despite being addicted, perhaps at a young age and growing up in that kind of chaos, There had to come a moment or maybe it was a series of moments that truly changed the way you operated as a person. And is there and I know it's not a secret sauce, but can you describe for our listeners in case somebody is going through the same thing?

32:40What is it that inspired you to change and come out of that chaos in such an inspiring way? so I've answered this question so many times and the way that you set it up just caused me to sort of have a different experience with how I'm going to answer so first of all I was tired uh you know every single person I think in the world um has behaviors that they don't like the outcomes of but they don't know how to change them I I was just really tired and uh And, you know, I, the moment that I was arrested last time, I just knew that something needed to change. And I realized, I realized something really simple, which was, I just have to do the opposite of what I've been doing.

33:33And because I realized that I was the author of my story, that the change was going to have to come for me. For a really long time, I had an expectation for systems and governments and providers to have the answer for me. But how could they have the answer when they had never been there? How old were you when you finally made the shift? Yeah, 40. I just want to say that I think it's really important to say this. Law enforcement was a blessing that intervened to help propel that shift. So, but I was 40 years old. Okay. And you had been arrested how many times? And I say this with love, it's just part of your story, you know?

34:20Yeah. Just so you know, my life is an open book. So I, for a long time, I've walked around essentially naked on the stage of the world. Everybody knows my story. So there's no area you cannot go into. I just want to say that right now. But yeah, I don't know. I've been arrested a lot of times. I served three different prison sentences. I've done a number of different jail stays, juvenile justice stays. For a long time, though, I expected other people to, you know, give me what I needed to be able to exist differently. But when I got arrested at 40, I was just, I was sick of it. I was sick of myself.

34:56And I knew that something needed to change. So, yeah. Had you gone to rehab any of the times as part of any previous sentences? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I did. And I just want to say... And what's the most amount of time? I'm just curious, what's the most amount of time that you're able to get under your belt? Because maybe that helped when you finally made your decision at 40. A hundred percent. Now, let me just say, I've been to treatment a couple of times. I've been to prison three times prior to this experience. And each of those times, I gathered more information, right? So what these industries do is they provide a one dimension of what is necessary, which is separation from the destructive path.

35:41So in saying that, it gives a person in the past, not today, it's a very different system today. It gave or gives a person the opportunity to be removed long enough to get clarity. And every single person that I've ever interacted with in any of these spaces, whether it's me residing inside of these spaces or me serving inside of these spaces, they start to develop a plan for how they want their life to be different. Now, I just want to say this. If a person is not practicing new behaviors, the likelihood of those behaviors changing when they exit out of the other end of those institutions, whether it's treatment, whether it's mental health, whether it's shelter, whether it's prison or jail, if they haven't been practicing those behaviors, the likelihood of those behaviors changing is very slim.

36:31We as a species gravitate toward familiarity. We gravitate toward familiarity. So when things get harder and comfortable and you have absolutely no idea how to navigate or access things that you want to do to change, you're probably not going to do that. And those are some of the things that I realized at 40. Mind you, I was searching for death. I was sick of it. I thought I was a failure in all areas of my life. But there was a different thing that happened for me when I was arrested and And I became clear. And, you know, and that's like there's this whole spiritual component to, you know, everything that's happened.

37:06But, you know, I woke up and that's what happens pretty consistently with most people that end up in these environments when they're not put on drugs. And I'm going to tell you that today when a person is separated, they're immediately put on drugs, whether it's through detox, whether it's a treatment program, whether it's prison, they are immediately put on drugs. And when you cannot access the deepest recesses of yourself because you are continued to participate in, you know, chemical escape, what happens is people don't ever find that place of clarity. So you don't believe in Suboxone to wean people off of, no, go cold turkey and then, yeah.

37:52I'm not zero tolerance, but I can tell you that I am abstinence based. so when we have blamed the pharmaceutical companies for the problem of opiate addiction are we all really so dim that we think that the pharmaceutical companies are actually the answer to the very problem we're suggesting that they created isn't their business model exactly the same how does any drug dealer make money just like any business return customers right they don't profit. Even some of the rehab, I'm a fan of rehab. A lot of clients have gone through some of them successfully, some of them not. They tend to make more money if they have more clients and they have more clients if people remain addicted.

38:37And can you talk to this part of it? And that is you just said you were sick and tired of feeling the way you were feeling, right? The pain of doing what you were doing and living the way you were living was just far greater than the pain of change. I get that. But how can a person, you, somebody else, any professional, get inside another person's head to make that switch, to flip that switch? Because I find when I have clients who are not successful in rehab, it's because they are going through the motions. They're saying what the counselors want them to say. They're just doing it. They're sneaking around behind their backs.

39:13They haven't been motivated. They're not sick and tired of feeling that way. And if we can bottle whatever it takes to change that in a person's brain, I think we have a lot more successful people who are rehabilitated. But how do you get there? Well, you said some really important things. First of all, our entire system currently is focused on long-term management. So back in between 2013 and 2015, we had a massive shift. We saw the DSM-5 change. Everything became diagnosable and prescribable. So when that is the focus, and I can tell you right now, I said it on a federal briefing. I think it was the homelessness EO.

39:51It was either the homelessness EO or the treatment EO. I've got some friends in D.C. that are involved in a lot of this stuff. I do consulting on different policy stuff with currently the state of Tennessee's Department of Human Services. But I was able to sit in on some HUD stuff too that showed the timeline between 2013 and 2015, which made a lot of sense to me because I was working in the behavioral health industry at the time. So we changed addiction treatment to substance use disorder. With the EO, the briefing that I sat in on, what I saw was a complete rebranding with pharma at the helm of some of these changes.

40:34So we have decided that homelessness is a behavioral health problem. So it's Medicaid reimbursable. It's diagnosable. The shift is to move everybody towards some sort of medication-assisted treatment. So I just want to say that. How do we bottle that? Well, first of all, we have the wrong people at the table making decisions when you don't have lived experience who have overcome. I just want to identify that very distinctly. Lived experience who has overcome and not drank the Kool-Aid and bought into this idea of industry standard, which current industry standard is long-term management. If you're not sick, I'm not funded.

41:13We've seen a lot of problems with funding and how funding is directly associated with these problems, with people remaining sick, right? So what we can do to bottle stuff, which is what I'm doing inside of prisons today, I'm developing a model that's very intentional. And we have to, when a person is removed and clear, are we ever going to have 100 % efficacy? No, we're talking about human beings who like to change the way that they feel. But what we do is during those periods of clarity, we assess deficits. So we take a look at many life domains of the individual who is like, you know, receiving some sort of service inside of these industries, whether it's homelessness, social services, behavioral health, incarceration, The model has to look the same everywhere.

42:02And what we have to look for are the outcomes that we seek, not inputs and outputs of the agency that are serving, but the outcomes that we seek with the individuals that are being served. How do we as a system equip and enable individuals to become the strongest version of themselves? Well, we have to first address from lived experience perspectives and engagement. Because I'm sorry, when you have the 25-year-old academic who just came from suburbia, who has never once in their life had a challenge outside of what their parents could solve for them, and we're sending them into these arenas, these doubles dens, which that's exactly what we're doing.

42:40we indoctrinate them and we turn them into these advocates that are progressing the very industry that is contributing to the destruction of human life. And that's exactly what we're doing across the country in any... Can I ask you a question? Let me just ask you a question. Is there any way that you can force change upon someone unless they believe their behavior has become intolerable to themselves? In other words, I watch these programs intervention. Most of the time, I don't think it tells the story because a lot of these people, I think, you know, relapse because the parents are forcing it on them or friends want them to get well.

43:19You know, doesn't the individual like you, you worked because you said I've had enough. How do you force people to get into treatment if they don't want it? It doesn't work, does it? Well, yes, it does, actually. So if there are 15 people that hang out in a house or live in the same place, and 12 of them are mountain climbers, and the other three are exposed to, these people, for a long enough period of time, people acclimate. They just acclimate. They're going to start hiking or something. They're going to start eating better or they're going to leave. That's just the way that we function as a species.

43:56Yes, you can. You remove people from the destructive path. And I don't know one drug addict that doesn't commit some sort of crime. We've decided that possession of narcotics that have the ability to kill people is not a crime. I think that's the stupidest thing we've ever done as a country. When your civil liberties encroach on my civil liberties as a community member, then you have put yourself in a position to be removed from society until we address your problems. And so when that happens and we immerse people in an environment where change is actually occurring, we're going to have a much higher likelihood over time that people are going to acclimate to that change.

44:36Most people are using drugs and participating in certain behaviors because those are the patterns of behavior that they learn to navigate those environments. People want to have integrity. They want to have self-respect. Again, are we going to have 100 % efficacy? No, but this is what I can tell you. I teach a process inside of prisons and my current numbers are really solid. out of 51 people that have been released, only one has recidivated. Out of that one that's recidivated, he has made his way back to the program because though we participate in familiarity in behaviors that have helped us to escape challenge in the past, what we really want is we really want to be good people.

45:20We really want to be parents to our kids. We really want to have a job where we have autonomy in our life. We really want to have our own place to live. But when you have a system that is feeding people the poison that keeps them suspended in their sickness, because we have a gigantic industry that we've called the help industry that is really dependent on these people being sick, change isn't going to shift. So when somebody is out screwing up and doing crazy stuff, it's our responsibility to hold them accountable, whether it's jail, whether it's treatment, et cetera, et cetera. I want to ask you about that stat because that's extraordinary.

45:59Out of 51, then he found his way back. Tell me what the formula is for the 50. What are you doing? What on a daily basis are those 50 doing to keep themselves off drugs and keeping themselves on the right path? Well, they've realized that the things that they were doing in their life were not helping them access the outcomes that they sought. The formula is assess deficit, address deficit, teach accountability, have people recognize that they are the author to their own story. And then once they have stabilized the internal foundation, because our solutions are not external. The problems that we're trying to escape from exist within ourselves.

46:44So I've developed process and curriculum that I teach inside a prison and we rigorously go through this process for a period of time before I introduce them to real opportunities. So I bring a host of network relationships from around the state into the prison prior to them releasing right around graduation. And what I do is I introduce the guys that I teach into relationships and opportunities so that they can sustain the goals that they have set for themselves. And so it's been successful. Guys don't want to let go of the positive things that they've developed. And they actually respect the guy that's looking back at them in the mirror.

47:25So a huge part of it is collaborating. Are they working the steps? Are they also like you incorporate the 12 steps into this? I'm just curious. No. Because I know that that. No, but I mean, I am a 12-step abstinence-based person. So, of course, I am also a Bible-believing person. My program is, people ask me all the time, is it faith-based? I said, no, but it's based in faith. But so are the 12 steps. So what I've provided is an opportunity for people to look at themselves. because not everybody wants to go to 12-step. Not everybody identifies as an addict. What I identify is change. I am a change program.

48:03The program that I teach is a change program. I also am a lover of Albert Ellis, who is the creator of Rational and Motive Behavior Therapy. So this has a lot of radical self-acceptance. You know, we've decided that, oh, my life is supposed to look perfect. There's absolutely no human being on the face of the planet that's perfect. our escape really exists within accountability, personal accountability and self-acceptance. I am okay no matter what it is that I've done. And there's actually power in my past and the things that I've done that I can't ever get away from, that I continue to try to hide from, but wherever I go, there I am.

48:41So is 12 Step a part of it? 100 % because 12 Step is a part of me, but the process itself really has to do with personal accountability. Jenny, I want to jump in because we want to take a look at some of your success stories. What you're describing is the Gabriel plan. This is the system that you are changing. And I want to call for 5B because we can hear from some of your students themselves. Let's roll back. Nobody put us in prison. Not the police, not the judge, not the prosecutors, you know, and damn sure not the victims. Amen. until you start taking accountability on the things you're doing wrong, you know, there won't be no change.

49:29You can't deal with problems until you name them and you know how to deal with them. And all the other programs that I've taken, I never really, no one really told me, hey, this is how you should deal with this in this situation or whatever. And certain scenarios and things, people are kind of private about, You know, they don't want to necessarily talk about it anymore. You know, it's they kind of feel like I'm at the end of my sentence. I'm ready to just be done with that. Let's just move forward. But there's a level of healing that I was able to get, I believe, from being an out that that helped me become a better person and help me see how others may view me and the way that I do things and how it affects others.

50:13I've seen even within myself, but for these other individuals, I have seen guys just, you know, take more approach at like going after the better things in life and then not material things, just the peace of mind, right? Relationships be, you know, strengthened and making amends. I just had a guy talk to me about literally making amends with his mom after so many years because of, you know, whatever bad blood was there. The cohort I was actually in and the individuals that you may not see that don't participate no longer in out in a sense, but I'm gonna tell you this, it carries on the way they conduct themselves, the way they help other individuals and things of that nature, let alone the way they, how they treat themselves.

50:57I feel like a lot of individuals that not all are in it, but that stick with it, their self-worth has definitely increased. What kind of change do you think this could mean for their release? The people who come from the program are not looking at their counselors and saying, what are you going to do for me? They're not looking at DOC and saying, well, how much money are you going to give me to live here? They're looking at themselves and saying, what can I do to improve my situation? What can I do to provide for my family? What can I do to provide better environments for my children, my wife, my brothers and sisters, my parents?

51:36It's amazing to me over the years how many times a guy comes to prison and you know he's got sick parents and he all he wants to do is take care of them but he's stuck in prison and then he gets out and he has that old mentality of well what's doc going to do for me seeing that these guys are taking ownership in their own futures and really recognizing that they're in control of that and not relying so heavily on doc to do it for me i think that's going to make all the difference in the world extraordinary. Ginny, I hate the fact that we have to wrap up with you, but we do. I just want to say that so those people that you interviewed were part of your OUT program, which stands for Overhaul Unrelenting Transfiguration, which is incorporated into your Gabriel plan.

52:26And I have to just tell you something. I have to tell you this. Listening to those men talk about how they transform. Ginny, this would work for people who aren't addicted to anything. The transformation within them is something that I think a lot of people without addiction problems or issues, I don't want to, without addiction issues could also just become the best version of themselves. That's frigging amazing. And I love you for that. And I applaud you for that. I would hope that people don't have to be incarcerated to benefit from your plan, from your systems change, from your wisdom, from your experience.

53:11What if people do want to work with you or learn more about the program? Is there a way that they can do that, Ginny? Yeah, well, they can email me directly at ginny at o-ut.org. You can visit the website o-ut.org. You can find me on social media at V. Ginny Burton. And that's with Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram. And I just want to say, and I think it's really important to mention this, is that the population that you just witnessed, they predominantly become our homeless, addicted population. The people that have been released are people who have been cycling in and out of incarceration for many years.

53:57We're breaking cycles because we are focusing on intention and the outcomes that we seek. Ginny, thank you. We are extremely grateful for your efforts and all that, we'll call it horribleness, and I put that in quotations, that you grew up around led you to do God's work. And I thank you for all that you do. Thank you very much. Thank you, Ginny. Thank you so much. All right. Coming up in just a moment, Jonna and I go off the record. Stick around.

54:42Welcome back to Positively Legal. It's time for Mark and I to go off the record. But before we get to that, there's something I've been dying to discuss with you, Mark. And it's from my favorite movie. Oh, we all know what that is at this point. My Cousin Vinny. Oh, yeah. Thank you. All right, so let's watch a clip, one of the many, and hopefully we'll show more during the season. But let's take a look at this one clip and we'll analyze just how real, how likely this is to occur. Go ahead. Mrs. Riley, when you saw the defendants, were you wearing your glasses? Yes, I was. Over here, dear. How many different levels of thickness have you gone through?

55:27Oh, I don't know. Over 60 years. Maybe 10 times. Amy, you ready for a thicker set? Oh, no, no. I think the hilt kick. Maybe we should make sure. Let's check it out.

55:47Now, how far were the defendants from you when you saw them entering the sack of suds? About a hundred feet. A hundred feet. Would you hold this, please? Thank you.

56:02Sorry. Excuse me. Excuse me. Sorry. Sorry. Still confident. Okay. This is 50 feet. That's half the distance. How many fingers am I holding up? Let the record show that council is holding up two fingers. Your honor, please, huh? Your honor. Sorry. What the hell's a you? Mrs. Riley. And only Mrs. Riley. How many fingers am I holding up now? risky

56:45full

56:51what do you think now dear thinking of getting thicker glasses Jonna a great scene I loved it when I watched the movie but how realistic is that would you ever do anything like that in court please tell me now That is worse than asking a witness a question you don't know the answer to. It kind of, if you think about it in real life, it's sort of like the, if the glove don't fit, you must acquit. Like that whole demonstration. That was calculated at least. No, that was bad. That made more sense. Right. Bad for the prosecution for sure. But, oh, John. No, no. It would never happen. It's just it's silly.

57:36And and young lawyers who see that and want to do stuff like that. Please don't. OK. Yeah. Just don't. It's good for movies. It's not good in the real world. All right. We're going to we're going to rant a little bit. We're going to rant a little bit. Yeah. Who's going first? uh i guess i am let's do it you're actually you're you're in my rant you're in my rant today mark really not not not in a bad way okay so in case you haven't heard crime con 2026 is taking place in vegas next week and the whole group of nk true crime contribs is going to be there i'm really looking forward to it because, well, Vegas, baby.

58:21I'm talking about getting very, very rich. Vegas, baby. My games are craps, roulette, and poker. Texas Holden, to be exact. Win or lose, they're fun to play and can keep you busy for a while if the free margaritas don't make you stupid. But the most fun I have in Vegas is at the slots. The high-rolling, high-risk, progressive slot machines where you can burn through your highest paid paralegal salary in a matter of minutes. Or you can spin those wheels to win a ton. Or you can spin those wheels and win tens of millions of dollars with one lucky pull. Have you ever wondered how much of a windfall it would take to change your life?

59:12One million dollars. My number? A hundred million bucks. After taxes, of course. That's what I consider FU money. And if I won FU money on this trip to Vegas, here are a few things I would and would not do. First, I would call my office and give everyone a raise so big they would wonder whether I met and married Elon Musk in the Elvis Chapel. Next, I'd round up all my MK true crime contributors and treat them to a sky's the limit spending spree at the shops at Caesar's Palace. Okay, so yeah, I anticipate Mark Garagos turning me down. He'd be all like, I was just there with the Kardashians. You go ahead, I'll catch up.

1:00:01After the rest of a shop till we drop, I treat my co-host Mark Eiglarsh to a champagne and wagyu steak experience so luxuriously expensive, the Prime Minister of Japan would feel compelled to friend me on Facebook. But the most important thing I would do is not tell a single soul that I want. Not because I don't want to be bothered by my six-cousin-one-three-move hitting me up for a loan, but because I would want to bless as many people as I could without them ever needing to ask. When I was in law school, working three jobs to pay my rent, I got so behind on parking tickets that I had to ask my grandma to help me out before my car got towed for like the 10th tie.

1:00:50Dude, where's my car? She mailed me a letter and a little bit of dough. Not enough to fully solve the problem, but enough to buy me one good meal before I went to debtor's prison. The details of the note don't matter. It's the effect that I'll never forget. I swore that day that when I had enough money to be a blessing to others, I would in fact be that blessing to whomever was in need before they ever had to ask. I've kept that promise to myself numerous times since then, and it feels pretty damn good. So when I win that F you money in Vegas next week, there's going to be a whole lot of people who will have my slightly frugal, overly judgy grandma to thank for it.

1:01:36And then there will be Mark Eiglarsh, who just might have the best beer-fed butt-massage cow he ever ate.

1:01:51Butt massaged cow. Don't you know that's how they make Wagyu? Fabulous. All right. That was awesome. Now I'm going to rant and I got to get serious for a second. All right. Becky Hill. I'm going to say it again. Becky Hill. The mere mention of her name raises my blood pressure. She was the clerk in Colleton, South Carolina, and she's the one who the highest court in the land in South Carolina found tampered with Alex Murdoch's jury. And just so we're clear, Alex Murdoch was convicted of killing both his wife and his son, shot them both. And I agree with the higher court's ruling that there was plenty of evidence to prove that he was guilty.

1:02:41But what Becky Hill did was revolting. She tampered with that jury. She said things to them like, don't be fooled by Alex and this decision shouldn't take too long. She did it because she was promoting a book. And if he was found guilty, the sales would go up. A book, by the way, that she plagiarized portions of. So I was very eager to find out when the news hit this past week that the convictions were overturned, that they were now going to go to trial again. Great financial and emotional and physical tax on everyone. I was curious to see what did all of her crimes yield? I mean, perjury, obstruction, misconduct.

1:03:30Surely they threw the book at her. three years probation. I immediately thought the wrong P word. See, what she did didn't just screw with Alex Murdoch and all the people of South Carolina and all those like myself who followed the trial and wanted due process, but she undermined the Constitution and what it guarantees. We would like to believe that people are afforded fair trials. What she did, she knowingly did. She intentionally did. She willfully did it. And I think she got off way too light. What do you guys think? Mark. Yes. Fabulous. Couldn't agree with you more. I'm outraged. I'm still upset by it.

1:04:21I know. Very slap on the wrist. Absolute slap on the wrist. But for now, we have to bid everyone an adieu. I want to give a very loud thank you to Ginny Burton, our guest, and to my co-host, Mark Eiglars. And thank you for joining us. Remember, new episodes of Positively Legal drop every Wednesday. I hope you choose to have a wonderful week.