Major Revelations in Savannah Guthrie's First Interview, and Possible Gang Connection to Sheridan Gorman Murder, with Gov. Rod Blagojevich | Ep. 1282

24:13Eric O'Neill:We need to talk offline, James. They are pinging on it. They're like, this is what happened. And that's why she went, do you think it's because of me? Well, she knows. She's like, oh, God, because she's always lived with that thought that that could happen. I'm sure her kids go through this. Her husband goes through it. I'm sure, Megan, you go through it all the time. But certainly, you know, she's been prepped and she knows as being in the limelight, kidnapping is a possibility. James, does your prep kit involve a Louisville slugger and your makeup foundation? Because my mother tells me that's what she's got at her front door.

24:45Eric O'Neill:She's ready to go. She's got her bat and she's going to look good. That's a start. That's good. That's called a plan, but certainly I'd like to help her with a little bit more, but that's definitely a good start. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of us have shorn up the security around our loved ones in the wake of this. I mean, it's a tragedy, no matter how you look at it. And it is a crime. It's obviously a crime. She obviously, I mean, I think anybody who is still wondering whether she wandered off can put that to bed. She did not wander off. She was incapable of the wander. I want to play one other soundbite for you guys to get your investigative input on it, because there were more details about the crime scene included in, I think it's here, Sot 3, where she was describing the video, like how the family was able to make those videos and like what they were going through.

25:34Eric O'Neill:She drops a couple of details in this soundbite, Sot 3. Let's hear them. And somehow together, we did our best to come up with the words to say. And I haven't posted one thing or said one thing that the three of us haven't decided together. It is surreal. It's how is it possible that we are having to make a video speaking to a kidnapper? Who took an 84-year-old woman in the dead of night in her pajamas with no shoes without her medicine, this little person, to beg for mercy. Again, I'm sorry, but the active listening, the active empathy by Hoda Kotb, injecting herself into the moment is just so distracting and unprofessional.

26:47Eric O'Neill:Randy, my question for you is there you hear her say, we heard Savannah once before say, taken from her bed in the middle of the night. Now here she repeats the dead of night and she adds in her pajamas with no shoes without her medicine. So those are details we did not know. We actually did not know that Nancy was in her pajamas, and we did not know that she wasn't wearing shoes. Like, she seemed to me to be telegraphing the shoes and slippers that Nancy wears are all still there. Not just like, she would have been in her bed asleep and therefore wouldn't have had shoes on. She seemed to be saying, who would take an old lady in her pajamas without any shoes and no meds?

27:26Eric O'Neill:And my note to myself here reads, it does not sound like this person planned on keeping her around for long. Your thoughts on it? Yeah. So when we're talking about this portion of this interview, this did give us a little more information. And remember that there was DNA found at the scene. And my question is, what was the condition of the bedroom? Did it show signs of struggle? Was the DNA found on the bed? You know, I hate to be the bearer of, we've already got terrible news. Unfortunately, if we're going to be realistic here, there is a strong possibility that there was a sexual assault involved in this.

28:18This is not an uncommon occurrence that situations like this occur. when we talk about the DNA, there was a combined DNA found. It's really imperative to know where was that DNA found? Was it something that was discovered on the bed? She's now talking very cryptically about what she was wearing at the time. These are serious clues here. But once again, we don't have the answers. We weren't given the information, but this is critical information to the investigation.

29:00Eric O'Neill:There's so much I want to go through on that answer and on Savannah's answer of referencing the pajamas and no shoes and without the meds. Let me just stay on that for one second, because I do think that there's a whole new reason to question whether this could have been a breaker and enterer. I feel like it may be ruled out, but I'll get to that in one second. Can we just stick, James, with the, now she's adding, it was the dead of night. Nancy was in her pajamas. She did not have her shoes when she was taken. She did not have her medication. And so that coupled with Savannah's belief that this was a kidnapping for ransom, like, does that jive, like those two data sets?

29:44Yeah, I think they do. The thing I was kind of wanting to hear was where did the blood begin and i don't know if she's intentionally being cryptic um and not saying that there was blood in that bedroom because you know all i've heard is that the blood is on the porch and in the driveway but where did that start the the inference is what he he hit her on the porch i if she had i just was kind of wanting to hear some more details. And again, she may not, I think if she'd seen that or her sister had seen that, they would have told her and that would have obviously helped, you know, the immediate thought that they were going through.

30:25This is not what happened. She did not walk away. You know, there's stuff, there's something going on, but there was no mention of any blood in the bedroom, which is still very, and it's curious to me, where did this injury happen?

30:37Eric O'Neill:And we don't know, there could have been, and we just don't know. No one so far has reported that there was. And this is Ashley Banfield's latest reporting. She'd been reporting all along from her source, the one that everybody likes to crap on, but this guy early on told her, and a senior law enforcement source she said she had, who's familiar with the details of the case, that's the one who said that they were, that the prime suspect may be Tomas or Tommy, Annie, Annie Guthrie's husband, early on the case. And that same week, we saw them tow away Annie in Tomas's car. And then later we saw them inside of their home at 10 o 'clock at night when it was dark.

31:17Eric O'Neill:They turned off all the lights inside the home and started taking pictures. In any event, since then, we've been told, at least, our own Chad Ayers reported, he cited a rock solid source. He has boots on the ground there, that the family's all been given polygraphs and quote, passed with flying colors. OK, so that's where we stand. But the question but the same source that has become so controversial in Ashley Banfield's reporting, every other thing he said has panned out. He said the back door was found open and it was. Now we hear Savannah say it herself. He said that the ring cameras were destroyed and we know that they're missing and that there was glass found on the front porch, at least.

31:57Eric O'Neill:And there's a little glass bulb on the front of a Nest camera now. And he said and he was the one who said their Nest cameras, not ring cameras. He was right about that too. And so it's just like her source seems like he knew what he was talking about, but everybody wants to dismiss that one piece about like this brother-in-law, quote, may be the prime suspect, at least as of that time. So Ashley has updated her reporting because the other thing he told her was that the blood drops we saw on the front porch continued inside the house someplace, that there were also blood droplets that looked the same inside the house.

32:31Eric O'Neill:But she did not have wear. I think most of us assumed that it would be right on the opposite side of that front door since they were outside of the front stoop. And it turns out that's correct. But here's Ashley in her own words, in her own reporting on Tuesday, Sat 16. We were told there was blood in the house, but I could never find out where. Where did those investigators see it so that they knew there was something so dire that they had to bring in homicide investigators? And now I know. Now I know where the blood is inside the house. And it is a fascinating piece of data because it is right in the front entrance of the home.

33:12Front entrance, front hallway, whatever you want to call that front entrance. But the blood now in the front entrance of the home is a significant detail about this crime. Just in the front entrance. Not in the bedroom. Not in the kitchen. Not in the living room. not in that family room the front entrance has a pattern of blood that is the same

33:39Eric O'Neill:as it is outside and it goes over the threshold out the door okay so correcting myself she does report no blood found in the bedroom and actually she doubles down on that here in sat 17 take a listen and a common mistake a lot of investigators make is they hyper focus on the place where they first see the blood and they think this is where the attack occurred. And that is almost, I wouldn't say it almost always incorrect. Finding the blood in one room doesn't mean that that's the room where the, you know, the attack occurred or the incident occurred. You have to go back and you need to look for other potential items or artifacts to give you indications of what might have happened.

34:22Eric O'Neill:All right, that's her guest, who is a bloodstain expert, Dr. Peter Valentin. So, look, we now know there was blood that continued inside as you open the door right there, and that Ashley's reporting there was no blood inside the bedroom. But there's an additional soundbite I got to run for you guys, because she does make a reference to how Nancy was taken. And it's when Hoda asks her about seeing the masked man on the front porch. Trying to see which sound bite this is on my list. Is it five? Yes, it is five. Let's go. I mean, it's just absolutely terrifying. Yeah. It's just totally terrifying.

35:14and I can't imagine that that is who she saw standing over her bed right there I can't that's too much and I'm glad and grateful to the investigators and the technology companies that were able to find that video. Do I hope, at least with people of good heart and compassion, stop the irresponsible and cruel speculation that had started to swirl? Let's talk about that for a minute. I'm glad that people saw what came to our door.

36:12Eric O'Neill:And we'll get to that second piece of it in a minute, but you heard the detail, right? Standing over her bed. That's a new detail. We heard from her bed, now we hear standing over her bed. And that's why, James, I feel like, in my view, this was not a breaking and entering where like she just ruled out that Nancy Guthrie stumbled upon a burglar who was there to steal and got crosshairs in the crosshairs of this guy and then got taken. That's, if what she just said there is known, then that's not true. And as you know, a burglar who's going into somebody's home in the middle of the night at 1.47 a.m.

36:59Eric O'Neill:is not like, I'm definitely gonna check the bedroom where the homeowner might be sleeping right now, right? It's like, I mean, maybe they would, maybe I'm wrong, but she seems to be saying that the mother was taken from the bed, the guy was standing over poor Nancy, then dragged her out of there, no purse, no phone, no meds, no shoes in the pajamas that she was wearing. To me, that does not sound like a breaker and an enterer. It sounds like someone who was there to get Nancy. Yeah, and I think kind of what Randy was saying, but this sounds much more nefarious, and I'd love to know how she, you know, does she know that?

37:39Did someone tell her, hey, we have evidence of footprints or something that he was standing over your mother before he did whatever he did? Or is she saying that?

37:48Eric O'Neill:Maybe there is something on the bedsheets. What's that? Maybe there is something on the bedsheets. Like maybe there is something there that leads them to believe that's where it all began. Yeah, I think a couple weeks ago she said taken from her bed, and you and I keyed on that, Megan, and now she's saying standing over her, like watching her, you know, with that mask. And so now that's, okay, are you getting that from some investigator, or is this something that you just believe, you know, like a story that you're saying to yourself, like, okay, this is probably what she was going through? Because if it's the former that some investigator is telling her, yeah, he's standing over her like a predator and prey.

38:27Okay, that's a whole different thing than Savannah is just, you know, thinking the worst and going, God, my mom went through this. And it was tragic to watch. Mm-hmm.

38:37Eric O'Neill:And it does suggest to me, Eric, that when she said taken from her bed a couple of weeks ago, it was not an accident. Right. That is what they believe, because here she doubles down saying standing over her in the bed, which may just be a figure of speech. You know, she's just sort of picturing how this went down. But either way, she's twice now said Nancy was taken from her bed. And therefore, I believe that's what she believes. And therefore, I believe that's what investigators believe. And therefore, the theory that Nancy may have been wandering around and bumped into a burglar is out. Right.

39:11Eric O'Neill:You know, if we trust what the sheriff believes. Yes, taken from her bed. So that does suggest that she's heard that from investigators that it began there in the room. It disabuses the notion. There were some theories early on that maybe he rang the doorbell and she came down to the door. now with the back door propped open and the whole taken from the bed. And, you know, the other thing that, you know, I think that Savannah wants to do is impress upon anyone listening the horror of the situation, not just for the family, but painting that picture that this person went into her mother's house, that her mother is a frail, small person, elderly, that he stood over her bed lurking there.

39:56I mean, that sinister image might stick in people's minds, and she may be hoping that someone feels that horror, feels that pain, and decides to do the right thing and give a really good tip or clue that leads the investigators to some fruitful point in the investigation. Randy, what do you make of it that the standing over her in her bed?

40:23Eric O'Neill:I mean, we're getting an image now of how this thing went down. We have the pictures of the man on the porch. We know there was some sort of, if not a struggle, something led Nancy Guthrie to start bleeding at some point once he got her. And we know that the original contact between the two of them appears to have been with Nancy asleep in her bed and the perpetrator coming over her and getting her out of there. No shoes, no change of clothes, no meds, no purse, no phone, no anything. So as you listen to that sequence of events, what does it say to you? I think we can completely eliminate the random burglar type of scenario here that was thrown out by a number of people.

41:09Impossible. If you look at the statistical analysis of crimes in that area, you will find that there has not been a nighttime hot prowl burglary in that area in years. The burglaries that have taken place that have been reported have been mostly daytime burglaries. A burglar that -

41:30Eric O'Neill:Now standing all those tapes we saw, Randy, of random people looking in people's windows and so on? Yeah, the reality is that when you look at the statistics, the real crime statistics, There hasn't been a nighttime hot prowl burglary intrusion into a house in that area in recent memory. It just doesn't happen, especially in that area. Because remember, most of these homes are alarmed. They have surveillance equipment. And it's not something that is normally a burglar. Most burglars, if they want property, they don't want to have a confrontation. Are people going to be home during the day or are they going to be at night?

42:12Right. So this it's just nonsense to even think that this was a random burglar that happened to, you know, then panic and take her. Impossible. This this was planned. I fully believe that there was definitely more than one person involved. I believe there was a driver involved as well. What we have not heard, and this is from a source that I have, is that that blood trail continued, continued from all the way into the driveway. That indicates to me that that individual who committed this took Mrs. Guthrie, probably by carrying her, through the home where the blood splatter was. There was a trail that went out into the driveway where they loaded her into a car and they took her.

43:04Eric O'Neill:That's the most I've ever heard anyone say on how far out the blood trail went. We heard from Brian Enten, who got that video we keep showing, that it was on the front stoop, the red brick area. Then Fox News showed us additional video of blood droplets on the gray, more gravelly looking path that we're showing here. You can see, thanks to Fox, video of that. But no one has ever said it did, in fact, continue from there over to the driveway, suggesting— I mean, I think we assumed that she didn't just vanish into thin air at that point, but like no one's ever actually said that. You're the first person to actually say that that I know of.

43:43Yeah, I developed that information not long ago from a source.

43:49Eric O'Neill:So there's no doubt in your mind that she was put into a car. Absolutely no doubt in my mind she was put into a car. And of course, then that is a huge investigative lead that they have been clearly trying to follow up on in requesting doorbell video, surveillance video from convenience stores, from any entrances and egresses from that neighborhood. That's why it was so essential that they try and get as much footage as possible from any surveillance cameras in that entire area. Because this didn't happen in a vacuum. The car didn't suddenly appear. It was there. It had to go through the neighborhood.

44:33It had to be there. It had to come in from one of the directions. So here's something that also has not been really spoken about, and that is the cell phone information from any of the cell phone towers. You haven't heard a drop about that. And that is very, very curious because that tells me that this was planned to the nth degree that they didn't have cell phones. And that in and of itself.

45:12Eric O'Neill:The guy was clever. This is Eric's area of expertise. But the guy was, before I go to you, Eric, I want to stay with you on this, Randy, before we get to the cell phone thing. The back door being propped open, propped open. That's different from open. It's like open, you just, whatever. You opened it, you walked in, you kind of forgot about it, and then you brought her out the front door. I think that's what we've been thinking. but if you propped it open, like to leave it open, you know, the way you would if you had someone coming in behind you in a few minutes, maybe, or you were carrying something heavy, you needed to get through the door.

45:48Eric O'Neill:I don't, like that to me, Randy, does potentially support another person being there that you would prop it. I don't know, a lot of people have like an umbrella stand next to their door or, you know, a small little couch for people to sit down and put on their shoes or some of those doors have one of those little sliders that you can put on that will keep the door open. But you tell me why a guy there to potentially kidnap Nancy would prop the back door open. Well, I'm just trying to think out loud, like an accomplice to bring something more into the home or potentially out of the home. He thought he was going to maybe steal a lot and he wanted to not have to deal with the door.

46:35Eric O'Neill:Or maybe he thought he was going to bring Nancy out the back and the plan changed. Go ahead. Well, this is why my question originally that we talked about is, did Mrs. Guthrie prop the door open on a routine basis? Like I said, for ventilation. The other possibility is, we know that there was more than one individual involved. When you're talking about carrying a person out, it's not easy to do by yourself. You know, it's going to be a whole lot more efficient if you have more than one person doing that. And that would indicate, you know, keeping the door open for an accomplice. Eric, go ahead, because the cell phone situation.

47:24Eric O'Neill:And now we're talking like if there's if there's more than one person. And by the way, a retired Pima County homicide detective named Kurt Dabb gave an interview to Parade magazine. And he said he believes there may be two to four accomplices on this crime, saying the logistics of something this of this magnitude is much too much for one person to handle, in my professional opinion, based on the facts as I know them right now. So then that would mean no one brought their cell phone. Right. So I'm agree with Randy. There are certainly – there have to be multiple people. You're not just going to have one person go in and then abduct her and then bring her out.

48:03Where is the car? You're not going to want to leave the car while you go into the house. There had to at least be someone in the car. And if you remember from some of our earlier interviews, that blood pattern out along the walkway there was in sort of a straight line, which would suggest, I think I said earlier, that she might have been carried and it's dripping down behind. You know, one thing about the before I get to the cell phone, before that back door being propped, you know, what's sort of stuck in my mind is you're going into a house and whether it's an abduction or what, but let's say it's a kidnapping.

48:35You know, maybe he propped the door because he didn't know what he was going to find. And he was thinking, I got to get out. If I have to get out quickly, I don't want to be fumbling with a door. As for the cell phones. Yes, you can ping cell phones. What the FBI and law enforcement can do is go to the cell phone provider and get the data for any cell phones that ping those towers. You can get a approximate location. So what they could do is check all of the cell phones that were hitting the area around that time and then try to.

49:05Eric O'Neill:Wait, but Eric, can't they do the geo fencing where it's like they don't have to go through all that? They say they have technology to say, show us which phones were in Nancy Guthrie's area home and around her property. Approximate area. So all they need to do is take the time and then they can have every every phone that pinged around those towers. It's not completely approximate, but it's close enough. Right. To say this person doesn't live here and was there at that time of night. And clearly they don't have that data, which would suggest that these the criminals didn't bring their phones, which is the smart thing to do.

49:38But what stands out for me is they would have had to be there at some point earlier to case the area. That's a very complex warren of streets. So if they're going to get to that property, they would have had to be there earlier casing it. And I think that's one of the reasons they really wanted those doorbell cams and ring cams and any surveillance cams from property. Because if they came through during the day just to drive through to see, OK, here's how we get to the house. Here's how we get out. Maybe something got caught. And if you also remember, they were going back later and getting on ladders and actually pulling physical cards out of those cameras just to see if there was anything that the people didn't report.

50:21Eric O'Neill:Yeah, and it does make you – reminds me that now they're making clear they're interested also in January 11th on the request for people to pull tapes. Savannah mentioned that to a local news outlet in a statement recently, maybe because maybe the guy forgot to leave the phone at home every time. All right, Eric has to go, but James and Randy, stay with me. There's much, much more to get to. Don't go away. Thank you. Thank you, Eric. If you are exhausted, foggy, anxious, or if your metabolism's flatlined and doctors chalk it up to age, you might just be getting ignored. Because that isn't necessarily just a part of getting older.

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53:12Eric O'Neill:James Hamilton and Randy Sutton are back with me now. And also joining me is Pat Brosman, my old pal from Fox News, retired NYPD detective and host of Pat Brosnan, live from the Batcave. Pat, so great to have you. Thanks for joining us. Megan, it's a trip down memory lane. It's great to be on it. Thank you. Totally. It's great to see you. Let me start by getting your perspective on the latest, these revelations that Savannah believes this was a kidnapping for ransom. She reveals, doubles down on an earlier statement that her mother was taken from her bed in the dark of night. Here she says that this man, could have just been a turn of phrase, but says was over her mother in the bed, you know, snatching her in the middle of the night, that she was taken without her shoes, that she was taken while in her pajamas, and reiterating some details we did know, like didn't have her purse, didn't have her phone, and didn't have her meds.

54:05Eric O'Neill:All of those are interesting investigatively and also adding detail about how the back door of the house was, quote, propped open, we believe by the perpetrator, though don't know that for sure, coupled with Ashley Banfield's reporting that there was a blood trail that continued into the front foyer area of the home, but not beyond, and that her reporting is there was no blood found in the bedroom. So your thoughts on where that leaves us in your theory? Oh, first of all, I've been a detective for over 40 years, both in public service and private with the NYPD, and I was a robbery detective. And I will tell you, as I sit here today, 53 long days later, I still do not know exactly what crime occurred.

54:50I don't know. I don't know. And that's based on publicly available material facts, interviews with various folks who have specific details, knowledge, data, intel. Still don't know. I don't know. Is it a burglary gun bad? Is it a robbery gun bad? A home invasion gun bad, which is an elevated robbery with force. Is it an assault combat or is it a violent abduction? And every time I deconstruct and reconstruct this case, and I do, Megan, painstakingly. Come to a wall because to support the violent abduction theory or construct requires three things. It requires a cogent proof of life, a transaction path, a pathway to make the transaction, as well as a cogent demand.

55:43And not any time, whenever I've reconstructed and analyzed this case, do any of them support that theory? every time it falls apart. Unless this is the rarest of all the rare violent abductions, and they thankfully are very rare, a not-for-profit transaction, a not-for-profit, I still don't know what it is because where's the request for the money? And this is 53 days later.

56:10Eric O'Neill:Well, she's saying she believes those two, quote, ransom notes that TMZ and the other locals got are real. That seems to be what she's saying. Some clarifying journalism would have been appreciated. But that seems to be what she is saying, that she believed those first two, which means this Harvey Levin announcement when he got the one was, if she's right, an actual communication from an actual kidnapper who did have Nancy. A throwback here in 37. So we got something in our email that looks like a it's written like a ransom note for Savannah Guthrie's mother. Specific requests for certain amounts of money, Bitcoin.

56:53Very specific. And also they say at the bottom there are certain things they're saying about what she was wearing and damage to the house. That they're clearly saying to verify that we know what we're talking about here. So we've contacted the sheriff's department and we want to get them this letter. and we had a little trouble getting through to the right person. But the person we spoke with is now forwarding this to somebody in the detective bureau. Again, we don't know if it's authentic or not. But when you read it, they're acting as if, yeah, only we would know these things and we're serious.

57:37And there's a dollar demand and an or else in there. Okay.

57:42Eric O'Neill:And we would later find out that the dollar demand related to being paid in Bitcoin, it was reportedly$4 million if they paid by that Thursday,$6 million if they wait until the follow-up Monday. And the family then came to the cameras and started begging for a negotiation. You know, the first we had Savannah Guthrie with the talk to her and you'll see, you know, which were which were sort of eerie lines because that was exactly what a character in Silence of the Lambs said. Then she did reference the potential ransom note in that very first video Savannah did. Here is SOT 28. We, too, have heard the reports about a ransom letter in the media.

58:27As a family, we are doing everything that we can. We are ready to talk. However, we live in a world where voices and images are easily manipulated. We need to know, without a doubt, that she is alive and that you have her. We want to hear from you, and we are ready to listen. Please, reach out to us.

59:05Eric O'Neill:So that was after the ransom note had dropped with TMZ. And by the way, so that was Wednesday after the Sunday that she was discovered missing. So this is just days after, it was Wednesday. Then on Thursday, they dropped another one, February 5th, with the brother, Cameron Guthrie, alone. You remember that? And then by Saturday night, now we've missed the Thursday deadline. By Saturday night, they dropped another one that sounded more almost reconciled to the fact that Nancy might no longer be with us. Here's part of that. Stop 31. We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her.

59:49This is the only way we will have peace. this is very valuable to us and we will pay we will pay but they didn't pay as far as we know

1:00:02Eric O'Neill:guys like everyone was monitoring the bitcoin account that you know fortunately or unfortunately the media had the numbers on harvey had the numbers on and the local uh news had the numbers on and harvey was able to see whether deposits had been made and he he reported that they had not been. So it did not, there's no reason to believe they paid the ransom, which I just don't understand other than, you know, James, they never got proof of life. So even though they believed the ransom notes were legit, I guess they just weren't going to pay it because they thought they don't, they're not going to return her or tell us where she is.

1:00:38Eric O'Neill:They didn't trust that they had a good faith bargainer on the other side. Yeah. I'm having real difficulty again with the the thought that this individual took her and then he wanted to use TMZ as a go-between to get his money. As if TMZ is, you know, the current Jerry Richardson of the negotiation of all, you know, things. And that's just crazy. I don't know that TMZ has ever negotiated the safe return of another individual. So why would they go through that? It doesn't stand, it doesn't make any sense. Well, the theory was that he, the kidnapper would have gone, that the three entities he chose all had like tip lines.

1:01:18Eric O'Neill:Like they didn't send an email. They went on, like, if you go to TMZ and you have a news tip, you know, like Justin Timberlake just got arrested for DWI. You can type that in on their website on a page without really, you know, I guess any identifying information. But it would seem to me that the FBI can always find identifying information about where, from where you typed that page. But maybe not, because here we are seven weeks in, They never arrested that person. And, you know, again, we don't know that the FBI is in lockstep with the Pima County Sheriff's Office in this investigation. We don't know that at all.

1:01:52We have it seems to be a disparate investigation being done by two different agencies. But, you know, even if, you know, this interview, this clip you're showing of her and the family talking directly, if it's done correctly, you know, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. But there's certainly going to be some coaching in the background by, you know, a negotiator from the bureau who explains to them what to say and how to say it. It's extremely rare that they would let a family just, you know, independently, you know, negotiate or communicate with the person. They just don't work. They don't work it that way.

1:02:30And again, no proof of life. So why am I sending you money? You know, and I think she even alluded to that. There are a lot of people with bad souls that, you know, take advantage. And that's certainly what I still believe that theory is, is that people doing that, you know, they picked up some information they saw on a video I think you showed of, you know, Nancy's home from years ago. They would have had enough information to make it seem as though they had inside information and they wanted to make a quick buck. But why didn't they?

1:03:03Eric O'Neill:That's right. Isn't that one of the big questions? like, what do you think, Randy? If they had her, even if she had died, there's a way of sending proof you have her. A lock of hair, you know, something, something really specific you saw inside the house that would convince them you had her. I mean, even what Savannah's saying in the videos, the hostage videos is like, we need to know you have her. They don't specifically say proof of life. And even the reward that she eventually posted for a million dollars is for information leading to either, you know, Nancy, like alive or her remains, or leading to the arrest of this suspect.

1:03:48Yeah, exactly. And I personally, when I look at these, the methodology utilized in reaching out to the family, it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Now, we do know that there were, remember, she alluded to numerous ransom demands. The two that she took seriously were these two. But remember, there was an arrest made on another ransom demand that they were able to track.

1:04:19Eric O'Neill:That was texted directly to, I think, Thomas, Tommy, the brother-in-law. And I'm curious as to the others that they received. Remember, there's a bunch of nutcases out there. they're going to jump into this that confuse the issue. And of course, that takes resources away from the agency, whether it's the FBI or Pima County. But let's look at what has actually resulted. Nothing. There's been no proof of life. If that was a reality, if these people truly had her, that would have been an easy thing to provide. And they didn't do it. So I'm not a believer that this was a ransom, that this was a legitimate ransom demand.

1:05:01I am a little curious as to how they have not been able to track those ransom demands. And of course, Pat said something, that maybe this is a disparate investigation, because we do know that the FBI and Pima County have not been in lockstep. In fact, you haven't even, the FBI have never seen them so absent from the news when it comes down to a high profile case like this. That tells me - Yeah, that's true. That tells me that they aren't getting involved because of the animosity between that sheriff, I'm using that, I'm even using that word loosely, the sheriff there, and the FBI.

1:05:50Eric O'Neill:Things have gone from bad to worse for the sheriff. Now his, you look like you want to get in on that, Pat. Beyond useless. I'll be honest, and it kills me. No one loves law enforcement more than me. This guy was not up to the task from minute one. He made every mistake conceivable from the onset. I won't get into the details of it, but he's surrounded by folks, I'm certain, men and women who are very committed to protect and serve, who are fantastically loyal to the investigation. But there is a sad reality, and it's a supreme irony, Megan. And I know Randy and James know this as well. You live in an affluent area like the Catalina Foothills.

1:06:32The officers who were sworn to protect and serve you in that area, by virtue of the fact that there are no real crimes, certainly no crimes of this level of violence, they have no historical perspective. They've never done it before. They've never done it before. I've spoken to.

1:06:50Eric O'Neill:It's not like getting a Pat Brosnan assigned to your case. Or a James Hamilton or Randy Sutton or a John Doe who's been in the Bronx or in Harlem or in East Brooklyn and has done 100 of them or 500 of them. And that just comes down to legacy, experience and expertise. And it is a supreme irony. It really is. The safest neighborhoods have the officers with the least experience. And no one wants to articulate it, but I will articulate it because I still think they're amazing, amazing folks, but they just haven't done it because they're in an area that's affluent and relatively crime-free. Say it.

1:07:25I have some insight into this particular subject. So by perspective, Tucson lies within Pima County. and Tucson is a very violent city. They investigate about 55 murders per year. So they have a very experienced homicide bureau. In contrast, Pima County has about five homicides per year. And the sheriff in his incident with them fired or didn't fire, but reassigned most of the homicide unit who had investigative experience. He put them back in various assignments as a punishment to them. So in actuality, the homicide detectives are very, very inexperienced. One of them, from my understanding, has never investigated a homicide.

1:08:18And that's not saying anything detrimental about them. But it's as Pat said, especially homicide work, this is a learned skill. This is something that takes years to get expertise in homicide work. And that's why homicide detectives, when they're involved, they stay for 20 years because that experience is you cannot, there's no other avenue for being.

1:08:50Eric O'Neill:No, you can't short form it. Exactly. I'm thinking as you're speaking about Brian Kohlberger, who was getting his Ph.D. in criminology, who made so many stupid amateurish mistakes because you can't just study it. You actually have to be on the job learning how to, in his case, commit crime, but in your cases, solve crime. And the sheriff's taking I have yet to find somebody literally I've been looking to say this is not fair. The sheriff is a great investigator and a really good guy. Instead, no matter who you ask, they hate him. There was just a no confidence vote by the entire police union. Every single guy in it and gal voted.

1:09:34Eric O'Neill:We do not have confidence in him. We don't want him. The county supervisor came out and gave an interview to Brian's enton saying, no, can't stand him. In fact, I'll play some of that. He's like he's talking about his beginnings back in 1980 from El Paso, where it turns out he did some allegedly unethical things. And this is what Pima County Supervisor Dr. Matt Hines said to Brian Enten in SOT-19. So it was eight suspensions in a little over five years. And it is kind of unusual to have any suspension for most of our officers. So to have eight in five years, this is a really troubling record. He was, frankly, a bad cop.

1:10:14Yeah, lots of dereliction of duty, tardiness, unnecessary force and discourtesy, whatever that, okay, where is it? Excessive force, that one wasn't sustained, habitual tardiness, excessive force, again, 15 days. And then eventually the next page for July of 82, insubordination and consistent inefficiency, which is like kind of one of my new favorite phrases, he was forced to resign In lieu of termination, the entire four decade history of his presence here in Southern Arizona has been based on fraud. It is clear to me that he is not capable or competent to to lead in this office. He is more than tarnished.

1:10:56And I don't I that's not specific to any investigation. The investigate, the most recent high profile one certainly has been shining light on on things.

1:11:08Eric O'Neill:I mean, those are rough allegations. The sheriff has previously sort of hoopooed what happened in El Paso, like, oh, my God, you know, what do you want to get me? I'm like, my middle school grades next. Like, this is not a big deal. But the entire union being against him, he's got some very senior ex-cops who've gone on the record in this case saying not a good guy and not a good investigator. Now you hear the county supervisors say, I mean, like, James, the list is long. Yeah, we talked about it, I think, three or four episodes ago, where you played the tape of him talking bad about the Bureau for investigating him and how he's the real cop.

1:11:44And, you know, again, I think it's always a bad thing if we're the sheriff of a very large organization is somehow leading a major investigation. That is not their role. Their role is to get resources. Their role is to talk to the media. Their role is to do damage control. Their role is to support the officers who are actually doing the work. That's what you want from a sheriff or a chief. You do not want them working the case. That is usually, in my experience, not a good thing. And it certainly isn't helpful for the victims.

1:12:17Eric O'Neill:Savannah was asked about the investigation. I mean, which obviously isn't going so well. And she threaded that needle just so. Take a listen here, SOT8. How did your family feel about the way the investigation was conducted? Well, it's still going. And people have worked tirelessly. Tirelessly. And we see that. But we need answers.

1:12:58we cannot be at peace without knowing and someone can do the right thing and it is never too late to do the right thing and our hearts are focused on that

1:13:15Eric O'Neill:she was too smart to you know rip on the sheriff who's currently got her mother's fate in his hands in some ways. So she said, well, it's still going. That's her telegraphing. Like, I don't, I can't say anything bad. And a shout out to the people who have worked, quote, tirelessly on the case. I'm sure there are a lot of investigators who are doing everything night and day to solve this crime. But then a demand for answers at the end, like, and then finally a reach out to the kidnapper or abductor, whoever it is, to say, please, it's never too late. It doesn't seem she has confidence in the sheriff.

1:13:51Eric O'Neill:And I have to feel for her, Pat, because when she got the news from her family that the mom had been taken, they thought, right? And she was in New York and she had to get on a plane and fly out to Arizona. The reports early on were that she called Arizona Democratic Senator Mark Kelly. And she said to him, you know, like this terrible thing has happened. And reportedly he vouched for the sheriff, like you're in good hands, you'll be fine. and that kind of thing. You know, I'm sure that a U.S. senator would do that because maybe he knows Nanos and he's, Nanos is also a Democrat. And it's kind of like, yeah, you're good.

1:14:28Eric O'Neill:You're in good hands. Don't worry, he'll take care of you. I'll call him and I'll make sure he takes care of you. But it does make me think, you know, you're in that position that Mark Kelly's in. You get a call from somebody like Savannah Guthrie about something as serious, like you have to make damn sure. You guys know this as actual cops. Like you don't recommend you're in good hands with this particular guy unless you know he can do this. Like if this is a friend of yours, it's Savannah Guthrie. I know if I called you, Pat, and said, God forbid something like this happened, you would not say trust this sheriff or this FBI agent unless you knew I could take it to the bank.

1:15:10Eric O'Neill:And I think something, my guess is that something went wrong here, that he recommended Nanos in a way Savannah came to trust Nanos. and this was placed in the hands of the wrong person. And I don't think the family leaned on him or the authorities strongly enough, not to blame them, I'm just saying, I think they trusted him early on to get this out of his hands and into the hands of the FBI. Your thoughts? Well, I think so. First of all, her words were carefully chosen, carefully parsed. But I think this may be a case where the senator, almost perhaps a knee-jerk response relative to the competence of the sheriff.

1:15:46And then again, the sheriff who has because I did some research on him, he has a very checkered past in many ways. You mentioned no confidence and so forth. But because he had no history again, again, Megan, supreme irony, no history of ever conducting any serious investigations. And this is extremely serious. So there wouldn't be any context or nuance, legacy nuance or context for the senator to lean into relative to his capabilities. Right. So it's the perfect circle. It's a perfect circle. Yeah, I think my understanding is he's a good guy, whatever that means. Yeah, it seems like a good egg.

1:16:23And he's leading that force. And but again, no, no, no fact based context that. Yeah, I recall now when they had that triple murder, you know, three years ago, he led it efficiently and effectively. and he was able to develop the relevant intel, data, reports, and facts, and lead to arrest, indictment, conviction. Nothing. The reason is nothing. It comes back to the circle of the affluence of the area and the virtual absence of serious and certainly super violent crimes. This one is suggested to me.

1:16:58Eric O'Neill:You can never give you a recommendation unless you actually know, especially on something as important as this. Like, we needed a real cop at the head of this investigation, and it just doesn't feel to me like we have it. We only have a short time left, but I have to get this in, jumping back to Savannah Soundbites, that probe where the investigation is and how she's feeling about it. Now, very clearly, Savannah does not believe any member of her family had anything to do with this. And that we understand, and it makes perfect sense. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to give them the same benefit of the doubt.

1:17:33Eric O'Neill:I would expect her to defend her immediate family members. But this is the first time we hear her directly show her anger over the speculation, in particular about, I mean, it's been about Tomas. She calls him Tommy. But she seems to suggest maybe her brother Cameron also came under fire. Maybe that happened with some influencers that I don't know about. And obviously Annie is married to Tommy, so she's been somewhat under the microscope because her car got towed by the authorities and impounded and kept for six weeks for investigative purposes. And because the cops kept going back to her house and taking pictures with all the lights out and taking items from her home, even though that wasn't the crime scene.

1:18:16Eric O'Neill:So, of course, people were like, what's going on with those two? And the husband was the last one to see Nancy alive, you know, prior to the abductor. So here's Savannah, though, lamenting the focus on the family in Sot7. It's unbearable.

1:18:35And it piles pain upon pain.

1:18:43There are no words. There are no words. I don't understand. I'll never understand.

1:18:56and no one took better care of my mom than my sister and brother-in-law and no one protected my mom more than my brother

1:19:12and we love her and she is our shining light she's our matriarch she's all we have

1:19:19Eric O'Neill:i'm just gonna say here again would have been a great place for some follow-up journalism. Tell us why you don't believe they had anything to do with it. And she might have been willing to answer. They all took polygraphs and passed with flying colors as we had Chad Chad Ayers report on our air a week ago. But we don't know what she's basing that on right now because the question wasn't asked. The information wasn't provided. But James, you tell me whether there's been something irresponsible. Forget what the influencers do. They're going to say, and they're going to say Savannah did it. The influencers are going to go, you know, so-called influencers, which are just going out there for clicks.

1:19:56Eric O'Neill:I'm talking about actual journalists and clearly she's mad at Ashley Banfield. And we've heard that. I heard that myself, that she's furious with Ashley and about the reports involving her brother-in-law. But you tell me whether it's irresponsible to take a look at Tommy and Annie. No, it's not. And, you know, we haven't, again, we have a lady who has not been found. And so we, it's a lead bucket you know where if we're working this case we're going back to a number of leads and friends family is is a lead bucket and we have to look there right but unfortunately what you have on the back end is you you know the sheriff's already said i've cleared them so how do you you know we we talked about this a couple episodes ago how do you clear somebody if you haven't solved the crime so yeah they might have an alibi for the actual night but it doesn't mean there wasn't an involvement that you don't find about later.

1:20:47So it's very difficult to say I've cleared somebody without solving the actual crime. So that's, you know, I think she's hearing, you know, both sides getting frustrated because wait, the sheriff said we're cleared and yet these people are still asking these questions. We have to look at it. Okay. And there's a way to do that in a way that doesn't seem, you know, terribly, you listen to her trauma. She lost her dad when she was 16, I mean, it is dripping off of her. So any inference of anything that her family's done wrong here is going to be doubly compounded by all the trauma she's been through.

1:21:20Right? I mean, I get it. I understand it. But obviously, you know, that's an area they have to look in. And then there's a number of areas they're looking in, but, you know, we don't have anything. We are nowhere after 53 days. Yeah.

1:21:33Eric O'Neill:And even she says, we have no idea. We don't know anything, she said. This is her theory that she's sticking with about an abduction, a kidnapping for ransom. But she explicitly says we don't know anything. But like what Pat's saying, but Pat is right. You know, these communities that elect these folks, it's all fun and games until you really need a law enforcement person for a high profile crime like this. And when you're in these little sleepy areas and nothing bad ever happens, you know, and then it does, like we said, I think the first episode, it is highlighted. I mean, you have a flashlight, a strobe light on you and your confidence or incompetence.

1:22:14And it is really, really difficult if you've never worked a case like this. And this is a tough one, right? And so again, that's what Pat's talking about. And he's 100 % correct. And they're the victim of that. And she can't just go out, meaning Savannah, and just hire some expert to come in and take over the case. It does not work that way. Law enforcement has, you know, the primacy on it. So it's very, very difficult situation.

1:22:40Eric O'Neill:I mean, I will say also, nor can she dictate what the media is going to speculate about, because I'm sure there are major downsides to the family of the media being so interested in the case. But the upsides are far more important and considerable. Like that the media interest in this case, if anything, is what's going to get it solved, is what's going to keep the pressure on Nanos, his department. It's why we have the vote of no confidence. They don't normally just run to the microphones in any given case that the sheriff isn't solving and say, we don't have confidence in this guy. You need to know he's not up to the task.

1:23:15Eric O'Neill:You know, the media is bringing all the pressure. It was the one misstep I would say Savannah made in this interview, and there was no other, was where she complained about how the family had to move locations, I guess more than once because there were media outside. And she talked about how it was like in the dark of night, we had to get in a black car, you know, in the desert. Okay. Like they got into a chauffeur driven limousine and were taken to this stunning multimillion dollar mansion in the hills with an Olympic size swimming pool. They were fine. They were better off in that other location than being on such a busy road where the media could obviously go.

1:23:52Eric O'Neill:The media is a blessing in a case like this that, yes, there's some downside, but net, net, it's not even 50-50 blessing curse. They're a blessing. Every family with a missing person out there would pray to God to have the kind of media coverage that this case has gotten. They would pray to God. So you can't complain about the media, which is your best friend. Here's the last thing I wanna end on. This was the one that actually moved me the most. And she talked about the one conversation in which she actually, of her life, she said, in which she actually heard from God. Like she actually heard him speak.

1:24:33Eric O'Neill:And here it is in Sat 12. Early on, I felt that I heard one of the very few times in my life. I did hear God speak to me.

1:24:52as I said to myself I can handle anything God I can handle anything I just can't handle not knowing we can't handle not knowing I have to know and I heard a voice

1:25:11and it said you do know where she is she's with me. She's with me.

1:25:26So whether she is on this earth still or whether she is in heaven,

1:25:36I know where she is. I know who she's with.

1:25:43but we need to know

1:25:48Eric O'Neill:that's awful that really brings home what the family's been going through and the horrors of this crime you guys having heard everything at this point about 60 days in do you think we will ever have answers are we actually going to find Nancy Guthrie pat i don't know this is uh i i don't know but but what i do believe oh megan is that uh savannah wasn't speaking to the offenders she was speaking to the circle around him and i've maintained this for a while not just with the 41 second video but everything else surrounding the fact that there are people who know that walk there are people who know that movement if someone cuts his hair.

1:26:37Someone serves Starbucks to that guy. Someone does the dry cleaning for this guy. It's very clear to me that the mask actually revealed him more than concealed him to the extent that his mustache line and his eyes set all the things that happened when he turned 360. I believe that dozens and dozens and dozens of people know precisely who that is. But this started off on the wrong foot. It was a$2 ,500 ransom, which is a direct insult to snitches around the world.

1:27:08Eric O'Neill:Reward. You've got to be kidding. Reward. Beyond horrific. Beyond horrific. Didn't move the needle. I had snitches. You got to pay them. That's the way it works. Don't know the answer. I have my own theory. I don't really like to publicly articulate it for a bad karma relating to whether she's alive or not. But the reality is we may never know because those dozens of people are hesitating to pick up their phone and call even with a million bucks lying in a balance. So either this is an extremely dangerous person that maybe it's not worth getting your throat slit at a later date for the buck of ruse.

1:27:50I don't know beyond confounding nothing. Bottom line, nothing adds up. Nothing.

1:27:57Eric O'Neill:What do you say, Randy? Well, I want to go back just for a second to the sheriff. And I don't know if you're aware of this, but he is currently under investigation. Currently under investigation for election interference by the attorney general for his conduct during the last election when he was elected. And also, the vote of no confidence, by way of perspective, that came before this investigation. The deputy sheriff's union voted that no confidence vote before this investigation took place, which gives you the reality of the morale within that agency and the distinct lack of respect that the working cops actually have in that sheriff.

1:28:49So that just gives you a little more perspective. He's currently under investigation. I have all the details on that.

1:28:56Eric O'Neill:That would suggest to me you do not have high hopes for finding Nancy. I don't know. I'm going to be less circumspect than Pat. I believe that this is a homicide. I believe that there is a strong possibility that there were cartel people involved in this, that this was farmed out to them. And that's why they're not in a DNA database. And I have my doubts that this will ever come to a successful conclusion for an investigation. And why do you think they did it, Randy, in this theory? Well, what are the motivating factors for these types of situations? Greed, lust, money, hate, revenge. It's one of them.

1:29:46Eric O'Neill:How about you, James? You think we're going to find her? No, I think it's going to be like a number of these cases I've worked where this happens. The longer this goes and you have nothing and you have no leads and you have no person of interest and no interviews are being conducted, the longer this goes on, this could be a situation where we'll talk about this for 20 years, whatever happened to her. I've seen it. I've seen it happen. I can name the cases. And it's tragic and it's terrible. But that's what I get the feeling. We don't have it. We should have things. This is 2026. There are things we should have right now that we do not have in this case.

1:30:24And the longer this goes, the less and less optimistic I am. There's one other piece of information I forgot to give you, Megan. And this is very recent from my sources. That massive investigation where there were hundreds of investigators working on it has now dwindled to a task force of five people.

1:30:51Eric O'Neill:It was bound to happen. but there's no way they could keep that kind of manpower on it. But it's very disturbing that while they had that manpower, they got us to a place where there appear to be no suspects. That's another thing Chad Ayers was told by his rock-solid source, boots on the ground, no suspects, none. I mean, that's not great seven weeks in. At least in Brian Kohlberger, when we were ripping on the Idaho police officers, as like, what's going on? They haven't told us anything. They had Brian Kohlberger. We just didn't know it. They were surveilling him. They were following him back to his home in the Poconos.

1:31:23Eric O'Neill:They were getting a warrant to go into his home right before Christmas. Here, the reporting is they have no suspects. It's not even like they're narrowing in on the guy. None. None of that is good. And you can feel the family's pain. You know what's amazing? Thanks so much. Thank you. And James pointed out, and I'll leave on this final note, I kind of promised, we should have a lot more. This is not 1996. I could not agree more. I won't get into the litany of investigative tools and the litany of data and the tsunami of intel and information. And there's nothing, nothing. It's beyond bizarre. It's like a ghost came in and a ghost vanished.

1:32:04And we know there's not ghosts. But this is the strangest case I've ever personally, you know, I want to say investigated from a third party. But it's unbelievable. So I concur. There's so much we should have and we have nothing. Zip, zip, zip.

1:32:18Eric O'Neill:zip zilch not up that that ghost comment gave me a chill i don't that's like that was eerie right it is like that i mean we saw the ghost on the front steps of her porch but you're right somehow he did vanish and nancy along with him guys lots of love so much appreciate it thank you thank you all for thank you for being here yeah thank you yeah james i'm calling you calling you for your your kidnapping protocols as much as my mother's foundation may protect her from looking bad. Anytime. You know it. Take care. Yeah. There's more in place. Just to any bad guys out there, there is more in place.

1:32:52Eric O'Neill:But that was her original plan. So more of this Savannah interview is going to air on the Today Show tomorrow. It's amazing. They broke it up into two parts, the first hour, second hour today. Now there's another part, part three, that's going to air tomorrow. Plus, they're turning it into a dateline. I'm like, like you can't, they're going to milk it for all it's worth over there. That's why they kept Hoda's mic up. That's why she behaved the way, I'm like, this is theater for some people involved. It's not theater for Savannah Guthrie or any of the Guthrie's. And my heart goes out to them. The other thing that was interesting was Carson Daly at the end of the piece on the set confessed that none of them has been in contact with Savannah throughout this entire thing.

1:33:34Eric O'Neill:Haven't I been telling you? I mean, no one's been talking to her? Great. Okay. But it's one big happy family. It's a one big happy. Trust us. And also continue to tune into the Today Show every morning between 7 and 9 a.m. on NBC. I mean, that's what you're looking at from the cynical network bosses, not talking about Savannah here, who is genuinely in need of our help. All right. Coming up next, former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich on what he thinks the Illinois officials may be doing with respect to this illegal who killed poor Sheridan Gorman. That's next. Think about this. In 2006, $20 ,000 equaled roughly 33 ounces of gold at spot price.

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1:35:08Eric O'Neill:The family of Sheridan Gorman is responding to the Democrats who continue to downplay her horrific murder. 25-year-old Venezuelan illegal immigrant Jose Medina allegedly shot 18-year-old Sheridan in the back last Thursday as she fled after he emerged masked and dressed in all black on a pier. She was out to see the Northern Lights, her family says, with her friends. And Sheridan, who tried to get away from this maniac, was shot in the back and then pronounced dead at the scene. Chicago's radical leftist mayor, Brandon Johnson, refused to apologize to the Gorman family and called her murder, quote, just senseless violence.

1:35:50Eric O'Neill:The Gorman family responding with, quote, the following. What happened to Sheridan cannot be reduced to a senseless tragedy, nor can it be explained in general terms about public safety. Sheridan was our daughter. She was 18 years old. She was doing something entirely normal, walking near her campus with friends. She should be here. Calling this senseless is not enough. There must be a clear and honest accounting of what went wrong. We will not allow Sheridan's life to be reduced to a talking point or a generalization. We expect leadership that is willing to confront hard truths and ensure that what happened to her does not happen again.

1:36:31Eric O'Neill:In reaction to Governor J.B. Pritzker's ex-post calling the murder a tragedy without mentioning the suspect's immigration status, the Gorman family responded again, writing, quote, quote, Sheridan's death cannot be reduced to a general tragedy, nor can it be explained away by broad references to failures somewhere else. Sheridan was a daughter, a sister, and a young woman whose life was taken in a way that should never have been possible. We're not interested in political arguments or in watching responsibility shift from one place to another. If there were failures, as the governor himself has acknowledged, then every one of them must be identified, examined, and addressed directly.

1:37:10Eric O'Neill:The location of those failures matters less than the willingness to confront them honestly. Our daughter is not a policy debate. She is a life that was taken and that demands accountability. And now a photo has emerged online, which some speculate shows Medina, it looks exactly like him to us, holding up a gang sign. For listening audience, it's like he's got the four fingers of his left hand showing and the ring finger is bent in half. So it's like the pinky's standing out, then the ring finger is bent in half, and then the middle finger and the index finger are showing. And that's apparently a gang sign, which has led to a lot of questions about who this guy is and what he was really doing on the pier that night.

1:37:58Eric O'Neill:Now, he's due back in court tomorrow after missing his detention hearing Monday, reportedly because he's been hospitalized with tuberculosis. A former governor of Illinois, Rod Blagojevich, wrote the following on X. Sheridan Gorman's killer is being held in isolation. I suspect Pritzker and the Dems are hiding him to cover up the fact that this illegal immigrant killed an innocent young girl as part of a gang initiation. I know gangbangers and how they operate. I lived with them for eight years, and I know Pritzker and the Dems. Bet you I'm right. Blokovic there referencing the time he spent in federal prison on corruption charges before being pardoned by President Trump.

1:38:41Eric O'Neill:He came on this show after all that, and we had a fascinating discussion about it. The former governor joins me now. His new book, Famed, F'd, and Freed, A Governor's Odyssey, is out in August and available for pre-order now. great to see you, Rod. Thanks for coming back on. Please come on when your book hits too, and we can talk all about it. But why do you think that this might have been a gang initiation? Well, I'm almost completely convinced that it was. I know this subject all too well because of my unhappy experience, 2 ,896 days in prison, sheltering in place with crips and bloods, gangster disciples, seeing a lower cartel of drug dealers who look up to the gang lord, El Chappell, like my daughters look up to Taylor Swift.

1:39:24I was in prison for the first three years with men who committed murder. So I have an unhappy experience living with those guys and knowing how they operate. And gang initiations are very much a part of the gangs, not only in prison, but in real life. So I have, frankly, little or no doubt that what happened here was that. I mean, the facts suggest that the group of kids were running away from this guy who appeared, He was dressed all in black. And then he decided to shoot poor Sharon in the back. I think it hit her in the back of the neck. It had to be because he had to prove himself to the gang he was trying to join.

1:40:01And one of the most disgusting parts of the story is the fact that he should have never been here in the first place. He's among the hundreds of thousands of criminal illegal aliens who broke into our country illegally. He was also in custody a couple of years before for shoplifting. But the no bail laws that the Democrats love let him out. And there can be no other motive for doing something like that. So based on all of the facts and circumstances that we know, my own life experience, I'm perfectly convinced that this was a gang initiation. The only explanation for him shooting her and killing her and not shooting at anybody else.

1:40:41Eric O'Neill:Right, because it seemed like he targeted her, but there was no explanation for why. Like, there wasn't an altercation. There was, as far as we know, not an attempted, like, sexual assault or anything like that. He just got his eyes on her. She sensed danger. He had a gun. He had a black mask on. she ran and her friends ran too and he shot her in the back i mean so you're you're you're citing the determination to take a life on his part as evidence that that that that in and of itself had purchased for him that's exactly right he was instructed by the gang he wanted to join to do that and kill somebody i saw it in prison these guys would the latino gangs in particular these guys the new inmates would be required to do certain things in violation of the rules to prove themselves to their car, which is the gang, were in prison.

1:41:32And the politics of this, I know, because I was a Democratic governor. Well, wait, stand by, stand by.

1:41:36Eric O'Neill:I want to talk all about that. Forgive me, but we're at a time on the SiriusXM one o 'clock hour, but we're going to pick back up on the two o 'clock hour in five seconds. We take a quick break. We'd be right back with the governor. Let's be honest. America can still be a dangerous place and you cannot afford to wait for help when you need it. Sure, you could use a firearm, but in today's America, defending yourself with deadly force could have legal consequences. According to FBI data, 99.9 % of all altercations do not require lethal force. And that's exactly why many are turning to Berna. Berna is proudly American, hand-assembled in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

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1:44:12Eric O'Neill:Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM. It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies. Along with the Megyn Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news. Only on the Megyn Kelly Channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

1:44:47Eric O'Neill:Former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich is back with me now. We are discussing the murder of Sheridan Gorman and why the former governor believes that this illegal immigrant who is accused of killing her may have done so as part of a gang initiation. So you're saying in prison, did you just have to commit a crime in order to join a gang or go so far as to commit a murder? No, no, I never saw anybody get murdered as part of a gang initiation in prison. But I saw several instances over those unhappy nearly eight years of some of the gangbanger inmates who had to. They had to become part of the larger gang and had to prove themselves to be part of the group.

1:45:30And they were required to go out and do certain things. They were against the rules, whether they were crimes or not. It really didn't matter. or whatever the prison rules were, they were instructed to go break them. It could have been, for example, get the first kick in against another inmate who was part of the group who had done something outside of the gang's requirements. They would do this thing called group justice where they would all gather together and each member of the group would strike a blow against the fallen, misbehaved gangbanger. So this kind of stuff is sort of tradition and culture.

1:46:09And it was very common there. And, you know, I grew up in a rough and tough neighborhood when I was a kid growing up. So I wasn't exactly immune to how street gangs operated either. And what I see with this particular case cries out to me that it was it had to be a gang initiation. What other motivation did this guy have to kill that poor, innocent girl like he did where he did dressed as he was? And the fact now that they're keeping him in hiding, which I really believe they're doing, would suggest that they know exactly what the motivation was. That's why they're they have.

1:46:42Eric O'Neill:OK, now explain that, because what we've been told is he missed his first court appearance because he has tuberculosis and he was hospitalized and is reportedly being kept in isolation in any event in the prison. So what what why is that suspicious to you? Well, I believe the Democratic Governor Pritzker said the word down that they wanted to not change the narrative that the Democrats have had when it comes to illegal immigrants. Because what this does is it blows up the narrative. And what it does is it shows that everything President Trump's been about and what he's been trying to do to rid our communities of criminal, illegal immigrants is very real.

1:47:19And that they are here committing very real crimes like killing innocent young girls. this goes against their narrative and it goes against the narrative not just of governor pritzker or mayor johnson but against the entire democratic party today and it's among the reasons why i think how would keeping him in isolation you solve this problem well i think the isolation is a holding pattern until the smoke settles and they can get past this being front page news um And and just basically bury it under the rug or hide it in the closet. That's what I I very much believe. And I do know that Democratic judges here in Cook County are susceptible to sometimes getting the word from on high and making decisions outside of what is right or wrong.

1:48:05Eric O'Neill:Is there a possibility of if he's a gang member and he gets thrown in prison pending a trial or obviously in here, I think it would just be the arraignment that he could be in danger from other gang members worried he might squeal or, you know, is that is that a thing? That is a thing. And you're asking a very good question. Yes, of course, that's a thing. and I saw that happen too during those eight years where from time to time somebody who was a snitch the mantra in prison is snitches are bitches who get stitches they would be punished for doing that and I even was told the story about someone that converted in the prison I was in when I first got there only two weeks before because that guy had been the recipient of a hit that came out from the Sinaloa cartel drugs, because that guy was going to be a, I guess, testify against some of the activities of the Sinaloa cartel drugs, drug dealers.

1:49:00So, no, I think all of this fits in with that experience that I had, the narrative, because the other side of it is that this was just some random killing and he decided to just shoot some innocent person and nobody else.

1:49:14Eric O'Neill:With only a shoplifting crime on his record, not a violent past, at least not here in America, that we know of. So yeah, he went from zero to 60 fast, but you're right. If you add in the gang element, maybe it makes more sense. And then we see this picture of him. This was posted on X by a site that goes by more M O O R real news. They have no website. They only post to X. And this is the only post about Medina. It reads as follows, Jose Medina, Medina. They purport that the date of this photo is June 11th, 2023. Picture taken outside of the Lyon Park Beach, 1222 West Touchy Avenue, Chicago, Illinois, where the city of Chicago and older woman Maria Haddon housed Jose, suggesting he lived on public assistance, 200 feet from where Sheridan Gorman was murdered.

1:50:08Eric O'Neill:And so this is what all they posted him in what we believe is a gang sign. And we actually just did a little research on this. Per a handbook for the Institute of Police, which is based out of Florida, they recognize this thing he's doing with his hand as a gang sign. It stands for Insane Vice Lords, which actually makes sense because the pinky looks like an I, and then you've got the other two fingers looking like a V, and I suppose the index finger and the thumb could be an L, insane vice lords. They're called that or they're called the almighty vice lords nation. The Department of Justice says that this enterprise began in Chicago, which is still considered its headquarters, has a bunch of different divisions now.

1:50:54Eric O'Neill:They became one of Chicago's largest and most influential street gangs, heavily tied to narcotics. And per a 2015 handbook from the Florida Department of Corrections. They write that members often have tattoos either on their hand below the thumb to identify themselves or as a protective mechanism for members facing possible jail time. We don't see a tattoo here. Oh, we do? On Medina? Where is it? Oh, we do see one right below his thumb. Oh my God. Yeah, we do see one. Dang. Yeah, we didn't see it in the hand making the gang sign, but we do see it in his right hand holding a phone and decked out in bling.

1:51:37Eric O'Neill:And his other hand is decked out in bling, too. He appears to be wearing what's probably a fake Rolex. I don't know what he's wearing, but he's blinged out. He's got the hoodie sweatshirt on. He's got the Michael Jordan cap. That's a thing, the Michael Jordan cap, Michael Jordan clothing. We saw this with, what's his name, over in Maryland, Maryland man, uh, Calmar Obrego Garcia. And he's with another guy wearing a hoodie, a red hoodie, uh, next to him. So there, there's some circumstantial evidence of that. Maybe this guy is in a gang. He got here in 2023 and promptly joined a gang. Great job.

1:52:14Eric O'Neill:Great job, Joe Biden. What's really sickening is the fact that he's being protected by the democratic party. He and others like him, they have become the priority of the today's democratic party. Governor Pritzker's gone to war with the president of the United States to protect guys like him. And they don't want to change the narrative. That's why I firmly believe they're doing what they can to try to keep this low, keep them hidden, and not allow the narrative that's truthful to come out. What's interesting, Megan, is Loyola University, and I know this area real well because I live actually not that far away.

1:52:47My daughters have walked on that beach. but Loyola University has a student newspaper and they came out today with an apology essentially an apology apologizing that he was referred to Jose Medina Medina was referred to for what he is in the illegal immigrant and they apologized for the use of the phrase illegal immigrant they didn't express any condolences to the to Sheridan Gorman or her family it was a it was just trying to I guess make it right with the immigrant activist community that has become part now of the mainstream of the Democrat Party. And they don't want any narrative that goes against how they're trying to describe the circumstances of all these people who came to America in violation of the law.

1:53:31Now, 10 to 15 percent of them, the best estimates according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, are criminals. All the others have come here. They broke the law. They're probably not criminals. They're trying to work to make a better life for themselves. But whether they're criminals or not, they came here illegally. And if we're going to be a country that respects the rule of law. Well, I mean, we have responsibilities to, you know, enforce that law. The Democrats have decided to block the enforcement of that law for their political agenda. And this guy is now caught up in that political game that the Democrats are playing.

1:54:06Eric O'Neill:I mean, I guess we'll find out because if he was in a gang in 2023, then he probably wasn't doing a gang initiation in 2026. But there is some circumstantial evidence here that the guy was flirting with the gang life, possibly in gang life. And in the absence of any other motive on this horrific crime, which makes no sense, you've got to at least go there. You have to investigate it. And here's the thing. As Julie Kelly, who's done great, great reporting on the federal judges and what they're doing to President Trump's agenda, and in particular how they tried to stymie his attempt to get out Venezuelan.

1:54:46Eric O'Neill:that's what this guy is, Venezuelan gang members, and Judge Boesberg in Washington, D.C., issuing a national injunction stopping it. She tweeted out the following. She wrote, she finds the tuberculosis isolation suspicious. And she says this photo that we're showing you, if it's him, could raise the possibility that Sheridan's execution was part of a gang initiation. She writes, if this animal is Trenda Aragua, God help every single activist group and judge, starting with Jeb Boesberg, who blocked his deportation. Because remember, Trump tried to get all Trenda Aragua out of the country and back to Venezuela in one fell swoop, and Boesberg stopped it.

1:55:29Eric O'Neill:And she pointed out, I want to talk to you about Democrat politicians for sure, including Pritzker and Brandon Johnson, the mayor. But let me just play you this Julie Kelly soundbite. She went on with our pals, Real Clear Politics. Great podcast and precedes my own show here on the MK channel and Sirius XM channel 111. And she made a great point about how the judges, too, are complicit in allowing these Venezuelan illegal gang members to stay in our country. Whether this guy is one or not, they have permitted people just like him to stay here with impunity. Listen to her. One other party that I think is very culpable in all of this are federal judges.

1:56:13Think about what's happening in Washington, D.C. with Chief Judge Jeb Bosberg, who basically was the first judge to put a hold, to put a brick on the president's Alien Enemies Act proclamation that authorized the immediate removal of Venezuelans, illegal Venezuelans who were here, who are tied to Trendelagua. Not only did Jeb Bosberg put a hold on that policy that then manifested nationwide, to add to that, Jeb Bosberg is still, and this case is still pending, trying to order the Trump administration to fly these 137 illegal Venezuelans men, who were then sent to El Salvador, then to their home country, Venezuelan, to return them to the United States still now a year later.

1:57:05The Supreme Court punted on this. We're still waiting for a final ruling. But when you have judges and even the Supreme Court sort of look the other way as the president and his administration are trying to remove the most dangerous criminals who crossed the border illegally during the Biden administration, What does that signal to the illegals who are there?

1:57:33Eric O'Neill:It's such a good point, Rod. Look, let me firmly assert, to borrow from Franklin Roosevelt, Jose Medina Medina is a gangbanger. Let me also firmly assert that the chances are that he's a member of Trendy Aragua are extremely good. And the most compelling evidence to suggest that to me is how the Democrats are treating this particular heinous crime against this poor, innocent young girl. because of the fact that that goes against everything they've been saying with regard to illegal immigration and proves everything that President Trump's been saying. That's what I really believe is happening. And I think Pritzker's made the phone calls, you know, to the judges and whoever else is necessary, the prosecutors, to do what they can to try to keep this quiet and not let the truth out.

1:58:16Eric O'Neill:Well, let me add another element to it right now because J.B. Pritzker wants to be president. He wants the nomination and he wants the top job. This could completely sink his chances. This truly could be the death knell to his presidential campaign. He rejected President Trump's offer of help to try to get the illegals out of Illinois. Even before the Minneapolis riots and all that, Trump went to him and said, I want to send ICE in to help you with your illegal immigration problem. And he wrapped himself in the flag and tried to pretend it was the patriotic thing to do to refuse that help and to instead protect the illegals, including Jose Medina Medina.

1:59:07Eric O'Neill:Here is what Governor Pritzker said. It's like a little montage, I think, about Trump when Trump was making that offer and actually trying to insist that he'd be allowed to clean up the streets of the illegals. Here's what Pritzker said. What President Trump is doing is unprecedented and unwarranted. It is unconstitutional. It is un-American. Find a family who's enjoying today sitting on their front porch and ask if they want their neighborhoods turned into a war zone by a wannabe dictator. Our small businesses suffer when our residents and visitors who are shopping and eating are made to feel unsafe by the jackbooted thugs roaming around a peaceful downtown.

1:59:52Make sure that you understand that the ICE officials don't have a right to knock down doors and to take people away. We're thinking of you and doing everything we can to protect you. So this is dangerous. They shouldn't be doing it. It's anti-American. It's un-American. It's an attack on the American people by the president of the United States. It's like it's become some sort of secret police force for Donald Trump. I'm saying we don't want troops on the streets of American cities. That's on America.

2:00:20Eric O'Neill:Eight months later, Sheridan Gorman was gunned down by an illegal from Venezuela, who, for all we know, might have been caught by Tom Homan's guys had they been allowed to get rid of the illegals prowling the streets. This you can the campaign ad writes itself. You're a politician. Can't you see it? This is very dangerous for J.B. Pritzker. And that's the motivation to do everything he can to cover this up. And then look at his behavior in the immediate wake of this murder. He didn't say anything for four days. It wasn't until, you know, the pressure was on. People had noticed he hadn't said anything, that he actually had a spokesperson put out a statement.

2:01:00He didn't even say it. Brandon Johnson, same thing. They were just hoping it would kind of go away and not become a political issue that now it has correctly become, because this really highlights the question. Is it about public safety first? Is that the responsibility of governors and mayors and presidents? Or is it about protecting gangbangers and gangbangers from other countries who work into our country illegally? That's the issue. And the Democrats have sided with the latter. Trump has sided with the former. We have laws, enforce those laws and execute those laws. But Pritzker has spent his entire second term using all of his resources and energy to try to make himself a viable presidential candidate on the backs of public safety of law abiding citizens, including this poor young girl.

2:01:46And you're right. It's all about his campaign now. And if this blows up on him, he's done a rival. But I must say, Megan, I know him real well. He used to work for me. He's not going to be president even if this doesn't blow up on him.

2:02:00Eric O'Neill:Why? Well, because he's flawed in so many ways. Now he's been dropping weight. I know you know that. He's doing a Zempick. He's totally on a Zempick. It's obvious. There's no question about it. He won't admit it. Claims he's walking five miles a day. I've eaten lunch with this guy. Sure. And, you know. Let me guess. It's his clean water regimen. Right. Anyway, I shouldn't make fun of him personally. I mean, what he ought to do is make ad throws at it because it clearly works. But what he shouldn't be is our president. He shouldn't be our governor. And it's a disgrace what they're doing. And I shouldn't joke about this because we lost a young life.

2:02:35I think about those parents. I have two young daughters myself. We can all who are parents sort of walk in their shoes and understand what they're going through and pray that God has a warm, loving place for her near to him. But this should have never happened. It should have never happened if they simply followed the law instead of playing politics. But Pritzker politicized this. Brandon Johnson politicized this. The Democrats have politicized this. And now I think they've got a real political problem on their hands.

2:03:04Eric O'Neill:Brandon Johnson continues, just like Pritzker, to blame Trump. It's like it's one thing to not take responsibility for your city and state policies, but to blame a president who is actively trying, who has actively tried to put ICE agents in your city and state in Chicago to clean it up of illegals to turn the nerve of the gaslighting that is like epic level. Here's Brandon Johnson on Tuesday, SOT 54. You know what the bigger threat to our public safety is illegal weapons that are being trafficked from bordering states that voted for Donald Trump. This president refuses to be held accountable.

2:03:50And he points the finger at everything and everyone else versus doing some real self-reflection on what his responsibility is. so let's just stick with the word that you like to use illegal he has promulgated illegal wars He is protecting states that are releasing illegal weapons throughout the streets of America. Illegal tariffs. If there is anything to address in this country that's illegal, it's everything about the Trump administration. That's it's just he tries to pivot.

2:04:31Eric O'Neill:He doesn't want to take one bit of responsibility or even Rod to apologize. He was asked yesterday, we found the name of that great reporter who asked him a tough question about, do you want to apologize to poor Sheridan Gorman's family for the policies that got her killed? And his name is William Kelly. No relation, but very proud of him. And he wouldn't. He just kept going, oh, it's just senseless violence, gun violence, senseless gun violence and Trump's fault. I mean, par for the course, a day ending in why for Democrats in Chicago, no? Well, we have the local altar woman from that neighborhood said he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

2:05:09She shared it was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Chicago sometimes didn't have a headline saying the same thing. This is all the Democrat narrative. And it's interesting, too, because it's not uncommon for politicians when they're, you know, facing something that they did really wrong or failed in their duty, which is the case with Jonathan and Pritzker, to quickly pivot and point the blame at somebody else, which they're not doing. Let me point this out, Megan. Days before this killing, Pritzker had announced a commission that he's forming to investigate who? ICE agents and law enforcement officials, so that in the event that a Democrat president in 2028, they're going to be held accountable for doing their jobs and forcing the law to find illegal immigrants, many of whom are criminals, and kick them out of our country.

2:05:51So now this happened, and it sort of steps on his storyline and just goes to show you where their priorities are.

2:05:58Eric O'Neill:I can't even believe he's done that these people are elected. He is. No, he is toast. There is just no way the Democrats really want to win in 2028. They are really, really over the Trump presidency and the Trump legacy. And they're they are not going to nominate somebody with this level of baggage on this issue. They need somebody who can go up there and make the case of the horrors in Minneapolis. Ice overreach. They're disgusting pigs. We hate them. And they do not want somebody who's going to be vulnerable to because you wouldn't let that horrible group come in and help the young women of Chicago.

2:06:36Eric O'Neill:Sheridan Gorman is dead. They can't. He's done. The more I look at this story and see his on camera comments like the ones I played for you over and over there, there's a litany of them. The more I realize he's toast, he is toast and good because we can't we can't have more of him. And I don't like Brandon Johnson. I don't know what Chicago is doing, Rod, but let me ask you about the sanctuary city policy. Because I went, you left office in 2009. In 2017 is when Illinois became a sanctuary state. But Chicago did it back in 1985. So what, did something change in the way, like I lived in Chicago for five years between, I don't know, it was between 1995 and 2001.

2:07:19Eric O'Neill:One. And it wasn't it was Chicago's wonderful back then. That was, you know, Mayor Daley, you could eat off the streets. It was like so clean. What I don't remember a big problem of illegals. You know, there was Cabrini Green, which is where like most of the gangbangers lived. And that was a way kind of away from the sprawling downtown and Michigan Avenue. But like, what is it with Chicago and now Illinois and the sanctuary status? Well, a lot of it, I got to tell you, is about votes. I have to tell you, these illegal immigrants are voting. They're not just voting in Chicago. I bet they're voting big time in California.

2:07:54Why else would these Democrats fight so hard for them to keep them in our country when it used to be the Democratic Party agreed that illegal immigrants should be deported? Look, I believe in the Dreamers program, and I believe that hopefully the Republicans and Democrats can come together at some point and find a way to address the needs of these good people who came, violated immigration laws and ought to stay. That's my personal belief. A lot of those Dreamers actually serve in our military. They work and they're not criminals. but none of that's going to happen as long as our country is so divided on the immigration issues and the Democrats refuse to do anything to address all the millions who came here when Biden unlocked the door and let them all in.

2:08:35There's got to be like 15 million.

2:08:36Eric O'Neill:I mean, they would say, the Democrats would say, they can't vote if they're not a citizen. Everyone has to provide proof of citizenship in order to get registered to vote. That's what they still claim. Right. Well, it isn't true. And this is the part of the motivation behind fighting so hard for these illegal immigrants. It's a voting bloc for them. And look, Obama and I came out of Chicago politics at the same time. This wasn't back then what it is now when it comes to the number of illegal immigrants. But if you're asking me, do Democrats steal votes in places like Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, Atlanta, and big cities across the country?

2:09:13My answer is there's the Pope Catholic. Obama knows that. I know that. I think both of us won our elections irrespective of how many people were doing that on our behalf. But that's just how politics works in Chicago and works in big cities. And I know exactly where they do it. And they do it in low income areas where they control polling places. And they do it through what used to be absentee ballots, which became bail-in ballots, which are absentee ballots on steroids. The fact that the Democrats refused to vote for the Save America Act, show voter ID, proof of citizenship. You know, all of these things tell you there's got to be a reason why.

2:09:47It's because they vote them and they vote the way they're told because they're unsophisticated voters and they can be controlled. And the Democrat Party, I used to be a member. I still consider myself a Trump Democrat for Trump. But the Democratic Party has really been about coalitions. And this is the new coalition of the Democrat Party, the new voting bloc, illegal immigrants.

2:10:10Eric O'Neill:How exactly would they do it? Because, you know, when if you want an absentee ballot, you do, at least where I live, you do have to send in your driver's license, something that would prove that you that you your driver's license doesn't necessarily prove that you're an American citizen. But in any event, how like how do they do it? How do they get the illegals ballots that they could fill out in the first place? Well, I mean, so they have organizations, these grassroots organizations that are immigrant rights groups and, you know, they're active in the community. They work closely with the local Democratic political organizations.

2:10:45And I believe they, you know, coordinate efforts to go vote as many people as they possibly can. And whatever the tactics or subterfuge they use, whether it's through a mail-in ballot or an absentee ballot, or whether it's just there at the polling place and somebody shows up. and is just voting somebody else's name who didn't show up, which is a not uncommon practice in places where Democrats control the whole polling place. The Republican judges in those polling places are really Democrats dressed up as Republicans just for appearances sake. So there's several ways to do it. Back in the day when I was starting, even before I got into politics and I was a young lawyer, I'd worked as a prosecutor in the Cook County State Attorney's office for then Cook County State Attorney Richard Daley.

2:11:28He was my boss. There were like 800 of us. I was in the misdemeanor courts. I never met him until I actually got elected to office. But back then, I was after I'd left and gone into private practice and I met my wife. Her father was a Chicago ward boss. And, you know, 50, 60 percent of his district, his ward was Latino voters. They were always very good to me and good to him. And we were very close to the Latino community and still are. But among the ways you can get votes was you'd have a guy and I'm going to name him. He was a good guy, a political activist, the way it was in Chicago. He would go into the homes of immigrants and unregistered voters, get them registered, and then he would vote them absentee.

2:12:11But then he would gather and collect and bundle the absentee ballots and put them in a freezer. because if you put them in a freezer and you freeze them, you can look and see how the person voted. And if you don't like how they voted, you can spoil the ballot and go back and have them do it a second time. This is one example of one guy who was very active. He got indicted in Cook County, and I was asked by my father-in-law to go represent him at a grand jury. And it turned out he wouldn't say it. I told him, just don't say anything because that's a lawyer. You're a lawyer. You know this. Don't say anything.

2:12:43And he took literally took me took my advice, wouldn't even say his name on the record. Nothing happened to him. But that was a practice back then. Just imagine what they're doing now with this whole block of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants who are here and are just going to do what the local community leaders are asking them to do because they're being helped in other ways. that's how I think they're doing it and I believe it's happening largely in places like in sanctuary cities and that's why they're being given sanctuary which in my opinion seems to be so unconstitutional and so unlawful that you'd have a place that basically invites people from other countries that break into our country come to our city and we'll protect you that's the new democratic party today that's what they're saying and too many of these people who come are good people.

2:13:34Most of them are good people. They're coming for an opportunity to work, but they've been misled by the Democrats. We've invited them in to come in, and they believe that they'll be protected in these sanctuary cities, which they are, and then they won't be found out. But the American people have woken up, and we have a problem that cannot be sustained, because how can you possibly sustain 15 million people who came into our country illegally and burdened the taxpayers and then take resources away from people, Americans, who truly need it, like Like underprivileged communities, the black community, for example, the Democrats say they're poor, but they're not.

2:14:06Eric O'Neill:I'm sorry if they're nice people. I'm sorry if a lot of them are nice people and just want a better life. If we have even one Sheridan Gorman, it's not worth it. It's not worth it. Like they come at too high a price because for every 10 you let in who just want to improve their lives, you get a Jose Medina Medina. And the next thing you know, poor Sheridan has nothing. Her future has ended. Her family will be hurting forever. And for what? For what? that's really the question you're asking. You have a theory for what, and it makes no, there's no redeeming value to what that man brought into the United States, none whatsoever.

2:14:41Eric O'Neill:It's a wonderful thing to see you. I hope you come back on when your book hits in August. Thanks, I appreciate that. I look forward to it. It's nice to see you. It's been a couple of years, hasn't it? I know, yeah, but I really enjoyed our talk when you got out of the pokey. So thanks for coming on and talking about it. Well, Steve, look up the episode number so we can tell them what that is. See you soon, Rod. There's a lot more to go on and I'm gonna end the show now because I wanna get to let Emily do the after show and folks can call in and so on. But I just wanna tell you, it's episode 274 if you wanna listen to the long form interview between yours truly and Rod Blagojevich.

2:15:18Eric O'Neill:It's really good, 274. It talks all about his life in prison and like, did he join a gang? How did he stay protected? And was he violated? We went there, we went everywhere. And he was great. Um, in New York city today, there is a piece about an 83 year old veteran who was shoved under the New York city subway tracks days ago. And he's just died from his injuries. An 83 year old U S air force veteran randomly shoved under the subway tracks by an illegal on the upper East side. And now grandfather Richard Williams is dead. he succumbed to his injuries after being pushed by another man waiting for a train at the Lexington Avenue 63rd Street station on March 8th.

2:16:06Eric O'Neill:Just, you know, just FYI, whatever. Lex and 63rd is a very nice part of town. You know, it's not like a sketchy part where you might think, oh God, don't get down on the subway. No, it's like completely smack dab in the middle of the business district. It's not far away from where Bernie Madoff used to have his offices. And this guy is standing, this 83-year-old man who has fought in war for the United States of America. There are pictures of him, quite a few I've seen now, of him wearing his dog tags. He was clearly really proud of his military service. And he lived to tell about it, only to be killed by some thug illegal down on the subway tracks.

2:16:50Eric O'Neill:The alleged attacker was from Honduras. Look at this absolute scumbag. Byron Hernandez, 34. He was arrested March 10th. His charge is now upgraded to murder now that poor Richard has died. And you can see video that the video does not show Byron. Actually, it does, but they haven't released this piece of it actually throwing Richard onto the tracks, but he does. And you can see that in the video, it shows him leering toward the tracks after shoving the victims. So you can sort of see here. Yeah, you can see there's the perpetrator, the accused perpetrator kind of lingering on the tracks after he has shoved Richard down on the tracks.

2:17:34Eric O'Neill:And then another man he shoved helped Richard get back up, get back up. So he lived through the attack. But as I say, died a couple of weeks later. Prosecutors had said that Williams, Richard Williams, was brain dead, and his daughter, Debbie, told the New York Post he was not likely to pull through. They could see. And it's been declared a homicide, of course. Another man named John Pena was also shoved under the tracks, age 30, and he's the one who heroically helped pull Williams back on the platform, but to no avail. He's died. He has now died. For what? Why? Why do we have to deal with this guy?

2:18:13Eric O'Neill:He, this guy Hernandez was a serial criminal. I mean, you knew this was coming. Serial criminal, lengthy rap sheet, at least 15 charges, including aggravated assault, possession of a weapon, domestic violence, and so on, according to DHS. He had been deported from the United States four times, but kept returning to the country illegally, again, per DHS. How many times do we have to have this story? How many times? That's Kate Steinle's murderer's story too. Deported five times. Long rap sheet. We don't know. The guy accused of killing Sheridan was allegedly only arrested for shoplifting back in 2023.

2:19:00Eric O'Neill:Didn't even show up. No penalty. It's fine. We let them in. We don't follow up on where they are. We let them commit crime with impunity. We don't, in most of these jurisdictions, cooperate with ICE to at least, if not going to prosecute him, make sure he at least gets the boot out of the country. And we set them loose. We send out our young girls like lambs to the slaughter, to be fucking slaughtered by these thug illegals. And then you have places like the student newspaper, as Rod pointed out, at Loyola, which is called the Loyola Phoenix, writing articles apologizing for calling them illegal immigrants.

2:19:40Eric O'Neill:I mean, spend a day on the Megyn Kelly show. They're illegal thug pigs. That's what they are. Does that solve it for you, Phoenix? Who the hell's worried about their feelings? Sheridan Gorman is dead. And you're worried about hurting the feelings of this illegal? You're worried about offending him by calling him not even an illegal alien, but an illegal immigrant? They write that no human's existence is illegal. And we quickly changed our wording to reflect that. It is a reference to one's immigration status, not to one's humanity. They know that. It's more important to them to kowtow to the woke reading their woke, low circulation newspaper to pat themselves on the back.

2:20:27Eric O'Neill:You're part of the problem. They say, oh, we took the headline down immediately. It didn't reflect the most important elements in the story. Took it down moments later to prevent any further harm to affected community members. Who? You have a bunch of thug illegals in your community? No normal Hispanic person is going to be offended by the use of the word illegal. Is that what you mean, Hispanics? No normal Asian, no normal African is going to be offended by the term illegal. What are you assuming about the people reading your newspaper? They go on to say that language was provided by DHS, but it doesn't align with the Associated Press style nor with the values of this newspaper.

2:21:10Eric O'Neill:We acknowledge the harm such language can cause and the power and importance of the words we choose to use. Yes, the words are important, but not in the way you think. We deeply regret these errors. Do you deeply regret the murder of Sheridan Gorman? your colleague on campus at Loyola? Where is your long piece apologizing to her family for these disgusting policies and the woke assholes like yourselves that enabled them? That's what you should be sorry about. There's just like, don't go there. I'm thinking about a young girl I know, she's finishing now, but who got into some great law schools, great law schools.

2:21:52Eric O'Neill:And at the last minute, she got into the University of Chicago and I said, you should go there. It's number one. It's amazing. Chicago's awesome. And thank God she's okay. But I just think now, if she were to ask me now, I'd say you shouldn't go there. I did even at the time tell her it was dangerous. I mean, Chicago has gotten a lot more dangerous since I was there, thanks to policies like these. Mayor Daley's no longer there. He was a Democrat, but he was a normal Democrat, you know, probably corrupt, but really good at his job and cared about things like crime and cleanliness. Now, I would not want my kids going there.

2:22:25Eric O'Neill:Like, I'd be worried sick. And I feel so bad for Sheridan's mom, Jessica, who I feel like I know. She was part of our Megyn Kelly Show community. She came to the tour, as I mentioned. And I'm sure she was thrilled she got into Loyola, a Jesuit university, and thought this will be great for her. She's a girl of faith. The family is too. and you pray God to look over her. And we all as parents convince ourselves that that's going to work. We have to convince ourselves that that's going to work. And when it doesn't, you have a reconciliation to work through. You know, you have a lot to work through and I'm sure the family's going through that right now.

2:23:06Eric O'Neill:Anyway, it's not just Chicago is my point. This is New York. It's It's happened in so many places. You know, Lake and Riley, that illegal came from New York and we shipped him down to Georgia on the taxpayer dime. It's every month we have some young woman or man, but often it's these young women cut short in the prime of their lives thanks to these thugs who never should have been here. This guy should have been Venezuela's problem, not ours. Tomorrow we'll talk about this and much, much more when Jesse Kelly joins us. Hope you'll join us then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

2:24:08Eric O'Neill:so you can spend less time worrying about admin and more time focusing on the parts of running your business that actually excite you. You don't have to worry when it just works. To realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us. To face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this.