Melania Talks Epstein, and New Tyler Robinson Letter Revealed, Plus New TMZ Nancy Guthrie Notes, with Will Geddes and James Hamilton | Ep. 1293

28:59Like, screw you people. It was part of the deal and the straight is closed. The straight is closed and it remains closed. The passageway through the Strait of Hormuz now is to say it's a trickle would be to overstate it. Do we have that graph, Steve? This was posted on X where it just shows the traffic flow through the Strait of Hormuz where, you know, the green line showing the flow is basically up toward the top of the graph. And then March 1st, basically when we started the war, it's just down to the bottom. There's nothing. It's like there is no graph. It's just down to the very, very bottom, the fallout.

29:38And the economic consequences of that are yet to be felt in full. We felt a little because the future traders can see what's going to happen. But the full impact of that massive drop in oil flowing out of the Strait of Hormuz is coming our way. so the Strait of Hormuz is closed and you had that situation yesterday where the White House is saying we were on board with Bibi the whole time Lebanon was never part of it and I tried to tell you that wasn't true we did agree to that the Prime Minister of Pakistan tweeted it out for a reason his initial tweet showed draft Prime Minister of Pakistan which is not how the Prime minister of Pakistan would refer to himself, his staff, they would just say prime minister's remarks.

30:24They know they're in Pakistan. It clearly came from the White House, which clearly used Pakistan to help save face as Trump tried to get off the civilization will end as they know it tonight stance and to a place of a ceasefire, which was a smart thing to do. Now, what do we get today. CBS News reporting the following. Trump changed position on Lebanon's inclusion and ceasefire deal after call with Bibi. Multiple diplomatic sources at CBS News tell CBS News that President Trump had been told that the ceasefire announced Thursday would apply to the Middle East region, and he agreed that included Lebanon.

31:08Mediators believe the ceasefire to include Lebanon, and Pakistani Prime Minister Shabih Sharaf announced that it did. Iran's Foreign Minister Abbas Aragchi also said it was included. On the day of the ceasefire, a White House official told CBS News that Israel had also agreed with the terms of the deal that Pakistan had helped to broker. However, the U.S. position shifted following a phone call between Netanyahu and Mr. Trump. Two sources familiar with the matter told CBS News that the changing U.S. positions and the disjointed remnant of the regime in Iran are making the diplomacy highly complex.

31:46And that reporting has been matched by multiple others now. That's exactly what happened. So Netanyahu won't stop. We tried to get a ceasefire throughout the region. Good for us. Good for the Trump administration. But Netanyahu won't allow it. He is bloodthirsty. And then yesterday, Trump gave an interview saying to NBC saying he's going to low key it. All right. I talked to Bibi. He's going to low key it in Lebanon. And immediately after that, Bibi came out to the cameras and said, full force ahead. Full force is a quote. The ceasefire doesn't include Lebanon. Full force with the bombs. these are facts that's what's happening the junior partner refuses to allow the ceasefire to take place and you ask yourselves why is that why is it so important to him to keep going because he doesn't want the ceasefire just like the president's most ardent bloodthirsty supporters who got us into this war don't want the ceasefire they want all-out war with iran going on and on and on and on.

33:00They're all lamenting the ceasefire. They're upset about the peace process. They're very quick to point out how insane they see the Iranian demands as. And look, it's a negotiating document. They're starting from one point that Trump knows better than anybody how negotiations go, but they want war. And so does Bibi Netanyahu more than anyone. So we won't stop. And we really need to reevaluate our relationship with this country. We cannot keep getting dragged into these never-ending conflicts or any conflicts thanks to them. We have our own problems to worry about. Now, today, just before we came to air, Yashar Ali, a journalist online, he writes for many publications, Iranian-American, Iranian by origin, but an American, reports the following.

33:56The Speaker of Iran's parliament just tweeted that negotiations in Pakistan cannot begin until there is a ceasefire in Lebanon and until Iran's assets are unblocked. Vice President J.D. Vance has already departed for Pakistan, and Air Force Two has left U.S. airspace. So where does that leave us? You've got the Speaker of Iran's Parliament. This is the one that Trump says we're negotiating with, that this one we can deal with, said the negotiations in Pakistan cannot begin. It's a no until there's a ceasefire in Lebanon. So what do we do about the junior partner? I really don't know. I just know that this country is a liability for us.

34:47Israel is a liability for us. Here were the stats I was looking for in the Strait of Hormuz. On Wednesday, this is Peter Baker, the New York Times, just four ships, none of them oil tankers, passed through the strait. Remember, that's the day after the ceasefire when things are supposed to be open. Just four ships, none of them oil tankers passed through the strait, fewer than the day before the ceasefire. And on Thursday, yesterday, just seven ships passed through the strait. That's it. Let's be clear. The head of Abu Dhabi, its oil company said, the Strait of Hormuz is not open. We know it's definitely not.

35:28and it's not going to be open until something significant happens in these negotiations, which now can't start because of Israel, which are made necessary to begin with because of Israel. That's where things are. There are also breaking developments in the Tyler Robinson criminal trial. We've got that for you. I'll update you when we come right back after this. relief factor loves hearing from pain-free customers and they hope that they can help you next one user bill said quote i've been crawling under sinks and working long hours for decades my back and knees took the punishment i thought pain was just part of the trade but relief factor surprised me within weeks i was working without wincing i could get down on the floor and get back up again without thinking twice bill knows hard work he knows pipes tools and long days on the job.

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37:51Unbelievable news just breaking via the Daily Mail, which you're going to want to go visit directly. It concerns Brian Noem, the husband of Christy Noem, who was our Department of Homeland Security chief up until a couple of weeks ago. One of the most sensitive positions in the U.S. government and trusted. And let's not forget, Homeland Security has been very, very focused on the ICE raids and the removal of illegals. But Homeland Security for most of the past 25 years has been mostly focused on domestic terror attacks, protecting the homeland, determining when to raise and lower the homeland threat level.

38:36I mean, very, very serious matters. And unfortunately, it appears that our secretary was absolutely in a compromised position thanks to her husband, who was openly dealing with these very bizarre women who cater to men's bimbo fetish and had been charging Brian Noem a fair amount of money, thousands, thousands of dollars to interact with him, to have like saucy talk and picture exchanges with them, all while he was at a minimum careless about the fact that he was the Homeland Security spouse and then ultimately open about it. You can see in the text messages that have been released and that we've reported on directly that he doesn't care.

39:27Ultimately, he doesn't care if these alleged, like bimbo is a term of art here. It's not an insult. It's like they go by it. It's how they get these people to pay them money and they make their breasts like beyond large. We talked about one yesterday or two days ago who had a size N bra. N, N like Nancy, that large, N. And so the Daily Mail has just dropped a piece with audio of Brian Noem and one of his bimbos. Again, forgive the use of the term, feels derogatory, but this is what they go by. This woman, her actual name, clearly she's spoken to the Daily Mail, is Shy, I'm not sure if that's her given name, but in any event, is Shy Sotomayor.

40:16Shy Sotomayor. But she goes by Raelynn Riley. She has extra large 2 ,500 CC breast implants. The woman that we showed you the other day had 4 ,000 CCs, 4 ,000. I mean, this is like insane. So here's this woman with 2 ,500. She's five feet tall, and she shared dozens of phone recordings with the Daily Mail along with online messages revealing her conversations with the now 56-year-old insurance company executive who used the alias Jason Jackson, but many of his payments came under his real name, which is how virtually all these women figured out who it was. Like it doesn't seem actually to have been much of a secret.

41:01And the Daily Mail indeed confirms we've confirmed that the reports that they've confirmed the telephone number was Brian's, who also paid for their conversations using an email under the pseudonym. This is Brian's pseudonym, Crystal Balls, B-A-L-L-Z 666, and admitted to the alleged bimbos he would like to be referred to by the name Crystal. Didn't I say when this story broke that he was going to transition within a year? I said it. I said it at least to my team. I can't remember whether I said it to you guys. I said, this guy's going to transition within at least a year. Okay, we've got two of the recordings for you.

41:36You can get the full thing over at Daily Mail. Here's number one. So much better than... I think actually we go to dinner at a place and we go to Serendipity for dessert. Ooh. I think we should go there for dessert. Yeah. And I would bow to you. What if people saw us together? I don't give a f***. Not even if you got recognized? I don't care. You know what I want? What? To be seen with you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I don't give a f*** about anything else. Yeah. It's time we'd be seen together. You told me you loved me, didn't you?

42:32I do love you. Oh, my Lord. I mean, this is so uncomfortable. Like, why did he do this? Why would he take these risks? This is so reckless and irresponsible. By the way, she's still in the government. She's still in the government. Clearly that's going to have to end. I'm sorry. I don't want any harm, more harm to come to her. But like, how? How can she keep going given these recordings? It's just, it's beyond. I'm sorry that she's married to this. I really genuinely am sorry for her that she's married to this. But this is not a marriage. It's not. This is not a marriage when he keeps calling these women and paying thousands of dollars for them to talk dirty to him.

43:21And he's going by crystal. And here's some more, okay, from the Daily Mail report. He's heard professing his subservience to Rae Lynn, who wasn't shy in dissing his wife, and in particular in criticizing her handling of aggressive ice operations in Minneapolis. Oh, good to know she's civic-minded. Maybe that's, he was just doing some research on the common woman and her feelings about the efforts of his wife. In fact, Brian was apparently so unfazed by Sotomayor, again, her real name, ridiculing Kristi Noem that he told the dominatrix she was, quote, so much better than his wife and that he didn't think his family stands a chance compared to her.

44:04In the end, Sotomayor said Brian's demands for her attention grew so desperate that by late March, she started cutting back on their paid online and phone sessions. I mean, what does it say about you when you're so needy that your paid bimbo doesn't want to talk to you anymore? He needed to just talk and talk, she tells the male. And it felt more personal than I was comfortable with. She's 30 years old. She's from Colorado Springs, the male reports. And made tens of thousands of dollars off the relationship. Again, our reporting is that he had multiple women who he was doing this with. And at least one who was trans.

44:39He paid for her enormous breast implants, which had to be tens of thousands in surgeries. He was spending like a drunken sailor. I mean, it's like this guy was out of control. Even after dominatrix Sotomayor discovered his true identity late last year, Brian seemed unconcerned, saying it doesn't matter. She texted him, F your family. This is in November. later calling the whole Gnome clan, quote, gross. Love that, he responded. Love that. F your family. Love that. This is so hurtful. Like his kids are going to see this. They're all, he has three kids with Christy. They're all in their 20s now.

45:24I'm sure they've been devastated because while I believe Christy Gnome knew, there's no way the kids knew. I just don't believe the kids knew this. This would be the kind of thing you'd want to hide from your even adult children. And now it's all over the papers. It's all over everywhere. It's ubiquitous. Everyone knows now. And it's this bad that she writes, F your family. And he responds, love that. I don't even know what that means. Besides the fact of who your wife is, no one's prettier than me. No one is as powerful. She continued. F-ing true. He responds. Do you want me to be a woman? Oh, Lord.

46:02Do you want to be a woman for me? She asked, do you want to be a woman for me? What are you trying to tell me, Crystal? He responds, I think I do. I think I do. In a recording of a phone conversation they had weeks later, Brian can be heard telling Sotomayor that he loved her. So much better than your wife, aren't I? She asked. You're so much better, he said. I mean, what is it like? What is it like? to be Kristi Noem and have to read this. Just a correction to what I just said. He paid for the enormous breast implants to be fixed on the trans person, but he was shelling out clearly a lot, a lot of money.

46:48And now these recordings, I mean, he sounds, he sounds pathetic. She's, her current position, I got, I had this in front of me earlier. Hold on, Let me see if I can find it. But she is still in the government in, okay, let's see if I can find it. She's in some group that is basically made up. She's a special envoy for the Shield of Americas, special envoy for the Shield of Americas, which nobody knows what that is, but she's still there. The Daily Mail had reported just this week that she was hemorrhaging staff. She tried to bring a bunch of people over from DHS, and many of them are gone. Four officials were placed on administrative leave on orders from the White House.

47:38Remaining staffers have stopped showing up to her new office. She's withdrawn from public view. Sources tell us, reports the mail, at least four of these officials who followed her were placed on admin leave. They include former deputy chief of staff, her ex-deputy general counsel, and two junior staffers. Senior State Department officials tell the Daily Mail Noam has had only one meeting this week, which was conducted virtually. Her remaining staff are either dispersed throughout the main State Department headquarters or working from home. The staff's already been cut in half. They have no clear sense of direction.

48:11And some in the administration now do not expect Noam to survive in her new job. This is before the recordings, according to insiders. Her new office was established to combat drug cartels, international criminal organizations, and migrant crime in the Western Hemisphere by coordinating with Homeland Security, the State Department, and the Pentagon. However, there were simply no clear roles or responsibilities for many of the staff brought over. The administrative leave, if anything, is an opportunity for folks to figure out what they're doing, whether that be at the Shield of the Americas, the State Department, or wherever.

48:46um that's that's all we know her her office is smaller they go on to describe it that this is like i'm sorry that has come to this but she's obviously not gonna be able to stay in this post the marriage clearly has been over for a long time i don't know why they're living this sham it makes your skin crawl this is such an utter betrayal i really just think this is a disgusting betrayal this is serial cheating and once you are you once you know you're married to a serial cheater, your marriage is over. It is over. I know some people have made it. Some people choose to like get therapy, work their way through it.

49:22Good for you. That is the 1%. In 99 % of the cases, it would be impossible to rebuild trust if you found out your spouse was doing this and you actually had to listen to these recordings. And I just, I think we are now within six months of getting the Brian Gnomus transitioning announcement along with separation and divorce for those two. I'm praying for them. I mean, especially her. He's got it. I don't know what, but I, this is the whole thing. Okay, got to move on. We're going to take another quick break. We're going to come back and we are going to do a deep dive with our panel today on Nancy Guthrie.

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51:13Turning now to the latest in the Nancy Guthrie investigation with quite a few developments to get to. TMZ reporting just two days ago that they received two additional notes from the person claiming to know the identity of the alleged kidnapper. Okay, so you remember, just to be clear, we had ransom notes that came in the first week Nancy was missing, that the FBI was treating as legit, that Savannah later told us she viewed as legit. Then we had some other person bomb in just to TMZ saying, I know who the kidnappers are. And for the low, low price of one Bitcoin, I will tell you. So this guy's not saying I know, he's not saying I have her and it's me.

51:58He's saying, I know who has her. And I'll give you all the info for one Bitcoin. The messages from, I guess I'll just call them ransom note writer number two. Okay. He's ransom note writer number two. Those messages were sent the very same day. Well, the newest ones that Savannah Guthrie returned to the Today Show this past Monday. Okay. So this person had already sent a couple being like, look over here. I know who did it. Hey, no one's taking me seriously. I'm getting pissed. And then on Monday, two more, two more. So this guy is not going silent. The person who wrote the, you know, ransom note writer number one, who we think may indeed have been the kidnapper, has gone totally silent.

52:43That person wrote not one, but two notes during the first week and then disappeared. This guy's now written, I think, four and he's not going to be ignored. He's unhappy that no one's taking him seriously. And he's taking it out on Harvey Levin of TMZ. All right. Now, here's Harvey Levin. He's discussing the first note that he received this Monday, this past Monday. It's not the first note ever from this ransom note number two guy. It's again, I think that guy had already written him at least two prior ones. But it's the first one this week. And here's Harvey describing it. We got another letter today from this person, an email saying, I know where her body is and who the kidnapper is.

53:30Give us give me half a Bitcoin and I'll tell you. And this person has been really persistent, knowing that if it's a scam, it's a federal crime. Right. But they also made the point that they wanted to make it clear that they have nothing to do with it. Right. They've been out of the country, but who knows? We forwarded it. We forwarded it to the FBI. Right. As we have in the past. Right. For whatever reason, and this is the thing we haven't figured out, you have to assume that the law enforcement, they believe that this person is not legit. Otherwise, they would have advised Savannah to pay the money.

54:07My spidey senses tell me that there's something about this guy, because one of the emails he sent said early on, time is of the essence to do this. And then the next day he said, time is no longer of the essence. If he was pulling a scam, why would you say time is no longer of the essence? You want to keep the value high of your information. And the fact that he said this made me think, this guy knows something. Later that same day, Monday, a few days ago, the TMZ reporting that it received a second note from this same person, this second ransom note writer. This one claims the person, quote, saw Nancy alive with them.

54:54We don't know who them is in the state of Sonora, Mexico. Now, TMZ notes that the sender is clearly not suggesting that Nancy is still alive because it reports that one of the messages from this guy allegedly writes, quote, she is dead. But the guy is claiming to have seen her alive in Sonora, Mexico, but is allegedly also adding that now she is dead. Okay, so again, that's from someone who doesn't purport to be the kidnapper, but purports to know something about who they are. While Levin and his team continue to debate the credibility of the source, he later went on with Ashley Banfield. And they started talking about the original ransom notes from ransom note writer number one.

55:46And she was probing him on what was in those notes because those were all taking a lot more seriously. This other guy, I don't know, we'll ask our panel what they think in the wake of this new info. But those first two notes that came, you remember these are the ones that said, pay us off by Thursday and the price will be$4 million or pay us off by this upcoming Monday, which would have been eight days after her kidnapping, and the price will be$6 million. Those are the, you know, ransom note writer number one. That's what he apparently wrote in his two. So Harvey spoke with Ashley Banfield about those notes and listen to this exchange.

56:26They you heard from the FBI that they believed those first two overtures were really from the kidnappers as opposed to scammers overseas or some ne 'er-do-well. Yes, but and they are from the same person. Holy cow. So when Savannah said that she must have had that indication from the FBI. They must have told her that they thought that they were real. Yeah. Now, what I don't understand is that she was going to pay and she and for whatever reason, they backed off. They had a reason for backing off. And I know they they did something. I don't feel comfortable saying it, but they did because they had asked me not to way back then.

57:07I don't know if it's changed at this point, but they thought they had a way of trying tracking that Bitcoin address didn't work. Because, you know, look, and they said in the letter that they would kill her if they didn't get the six million by that Monday. So it's unclear whether this was foul play or she died because, you know, she was ill. She didn't have her meds. So I have no idea. Oh, the ransom letters did threaten to kill her. Yes. Now, that's obviously dark. we kind of thought they might have because there's always an implicit or else in the letter from a kidnapper demanding money. But there's a lot in there.

57:50And I just wanna add a little something here. Okay, because you heard him say the FBI thought, he said the FBI believes those first two are from the real kidnapper. Now we kind of gleaned that when Savannah said, I tend to believe that those first two were real, were legit. And we said explicitly to you on this show, that must mean the FBI believes that because that's where her information is coming from. And now we get Harvey confirming that the FBI believes those first two notes were from the real kidnapper. And so of course, the next question is, why didn't they pay? If they all believed those notes demanding 4 million and then 6 million were from the real kidnapper, why didn't the family pay the ransom?

58:37And wouldn't that have been a great follow-up question for Hoda Kotb to ask Savannah if she could get past her own sniffling and fake crying? Maybe we could have gotten that, but we didn't. So Harvey adds on that they were going to pay, but they backed off for some reason. That's very interesting. Had never heard that. The family was going to pay, but backed off for some reason. And then he speculates there saying, maybe it was because, is really what he's intimating, that the FBI thought it had a way of tracking the person writing those notes. Because remember, the person writing those notes was also demanding to be paid in Bitcoin.

59:20And there was a Bitcoin account number in those first two notes. And he said they thought they had a way of tracking that person and the account, but it, quote, did not work. and he said he didn't want to reveal too much. He promised them that he wouldn't, but it didn't work. Well, he already revealed and the local Tucson station that got the second note, remember there was the first note saying four million or six million and we've got her. And then there was a follow-up, second note that only went to one Tucson local station. We know very little about it other than it was from the same person and it had the same Bitcoin account.

59:57We've had some debates about some unconfirmed reports about what was in it, but we don't know what was in it. In any event, a local station—so Harvey did report at the time that the FBI was considering doing something with the Bitcoin account to track the guy. And the local station expanded on Harvey's reporting. He may have forgotten that he said that because there with Ashley, he's like, you know, I don't want to disclose. I don't want to say what they did to try to track the Bitcoin account that was in the first two notes. Well, here's what he said back on February 10th. Listen to this. It's not 23C.

1:00:35We're now 24 hours and 25 minutes past the deadline for that payment. And I know you have still been checking for any payments. What are you seeing?

1:00:46so um about 12 minutes ago we saw activity in that account

1:00:57Activity like what? That's what I can't talk about. There are reasons I can't, but all I can say is there is now activity in that Bitcoin account. Okay. Now, let me just ask one more question and you'll share with me what you can. But when you say activity, is that that you can see money is going into the account or are you able to tell whether it's money going in or going out? Well, it would only show, as I understand this, money going in. And the only thing you would see is money. And Aaron, that's all I can say. Now, that led many to speculate, has the family paid the money? Did they pay? But then KGUN, which is the local Tucson station that got the second note, added to Harvey's reporting.

1:01:49They confirmed shortly after that report he delivered on CNN that there was activity in the Bitcoin account, the one that was listed in the ransom email, and that that activity is, quote, less than$300. And there was speculation on this show and elsewhere at the time that maybe that was the feds trying to basically get the kidnapper to take the money out of the account and to be able to track them. So that, again, Harvey reported that on February 10th. That was a Tuesday. day. It was the day after all the deadlines had expired. Remember, because it was supposed to be on Thursday, the 5th, was the first deadline for$4 million.

1:02:42And I think Monday, the 9th, was the second deadline for$6 million. And so this is Tuesday, the 10th, with Harvey saying some amount had been deposited into the alleged kidnapper's account. And Kagan adding to that, saying it was under$300. And that is what he clearly is now expanding to Ashley Banfield saying they thought they had a way of tracking the person who was sending those first two notes, but it did not work. And he does reveal to Ashley that they did write, the actual kidnappers, if that's who it was, wrote in their letter that they would kill Nancy if they didn't get paid. so it's there's so many questions here we're going to bring in our panel uh to react will get us is here he's a security expert and elite bodyguard and uh kidnapping expert too and james hamilton who's former fbi supervisory special agent guys great to see you again a lot in there confusing but i think we're all up to speed because we know what's happening in this case um will as the as our kidnapping guy let me start with you on your reaction to the latest Well, I don't put a lot of credibility into Harvey's reporting on this in terms of some of the information he's sharing.

1:03:58And I think certainly making it fairly more mysterious about obviously the activity on the actual Bitcoin account. And I'm with you, Megan, completely. This is the sort of thing I would do. You deposit a very small amount into that Bitcoin account, see whether it gets picked up, and then you follow the trail from there. But I think the reason why no ransom has been paid to date, regardless of whatever threats have been made is fundamentally down to a lack of proof of life. Now, you and I, we've spoken about this before. I've done the negotiation on cases where unfortunately the hostage has died and that would be to retrieve the body.

1:04:36Now, there are many, many different ways I think they can come at it right now. I don't think the trail is necessarily cold. I think it is cold in terms of Pima County. I think they're utterly useless and beyond any kind of sense or reason, and I'm sure we're going to come on to that. But I think in terms of the fact that they've got Sonora in Mexico as a location, potentially, of where Nancy has been witnessed, certainly moving about or being with certain kidnappers, I think there's some things you can do down there. And I think if there is any credibility to some of the claims that have been made, there's inevitably going to be, number one, they could have duplicated across many of those ransom requests.

1:05:18So it may not just be separate people. It could be one person who is masquerading as a couple. And I think also the other issue, which is really key, is the fact that it's an individual who is unwilling really to help, even in an instance where he says, or they claim, that Nancy has now died, that they are willing to necessarily help without some sort of payment, which would say to me they're connected to the kidnappers. Okay, that's so interesting. So just to be clear, because it's very confusing, the ransom note writer number one, who the FBI thinks is legit, according to Harvey, said, we are threatening to kill Nancy.

1:05:57Yeah. But did not say they had killed Nancy, or at least they may have, but we haven't heard that from Harvey or from the FBI. Mm-hmm. Ransom note writer number two, who says, I don't have Nancy, but I know who has Nancy, says she's dead. Says she was alive and time is of the essence for you to make this Bitcoin payment to me. Otherwise, something bad's going to happen. And then the next day comes out and says she's dead. Now she's dead. And Harvey, you may have heard in one of those soundbites, says, James, why would he, if he's a scammer, the second guy saying, give me a Bitcoin and I'll tell you who did it.

1:06:40Why would he say she's dead? Like that doesn't sound like a scammer. A scammer would be keeping his fake kidnapping victim that he's got all the information about alive to keep the incentive to pay him alive. Well, there's a couple of things also that Harvey's saying. One is persistent. He kept saying this individual is persistent, which I equate to, you know, obsessive. And obsessive is usually what you find with stalkers and people who are mentally not the same as you and me. And so those are the things I was keying in on. And, you know, live or dead, she knows or the person number two that you keep, you know, as we're separating these two, note writer number two, they just want some money.

1:07:26Dead, alive, it doesn't matter. Half a Bitcoin is, what, 36 grand? It's not a lot of money. And so they're grabbing at straws here. I don't, you know, I feel like the second one, it feels very scammy to me. The first one's interesting. I certainly would like to talk about that a little bit more. But number two, no, I think Harvey's not correct. I think it's consistent with a scammer. All right, let me tell you what ransom note writer number two has sent. Because by my calculation now, it's a total of five notes, the one who we're calling a scammer. He doesn't like to be called that, James. Okay?

1:08:07Wednesday, February 11th was the first one. It was a new note demanding one Bitcoin for information on Nancy's case sent to TMZ just before 6 a.m. And the sender claimed that they had been unsuccessful in reaching Nancy's kids, Cameron and Annie, by email and text. TMZ reported that the note reads, if they want the name of the individual involved, then I want one Bitcoin to the following wallet. Time is more than relevant. There is a legitimate Bitcoin address in this note. it is a different one from the one that was in the original two ransom notes, the ones that we think may have been legit.

1:08:45Okay. Then comes the next day, Thursday, February 12th. He writes again, just after 9 a.m. TMZ receives a second email from the same person as the day before. They complain, this person, I am not being taken seriously. They say he makes some ominous statements in the email, reported TMZ. TMZ was cooperating with law enforcement by not disclosing the specifics. One thing he makes clear, the situation has changed from Wednesday to Thursday. Harvey's now revealing that on Wednesday he said she was alive and on Thursday he said she was dead. As for why the guy wants a Bitcoin, he says he will need money to lay low after identifying the kidnapper for fear of retaliation.

1:09:26He also worries he might be, quote, incriminated like that Carlos, the delivery man who was detained and released by cops, but like that guy, he ends by saying, this is his final attempt to help until the next day, February 13th, where he writes again. And TMZ reports they just received a third email from the man who claims he knows the identity of the kidnappers. He has upped his price. The email says he's contacting TMZ because he doesn't trust law enforcement. He's using TMZ as an intermediary, telling authorities, you don't trust me and I don't trust you. There's another important change, reports TMZ.

1:10:04He says when he gets the initial payment, because now remember he was like, I want half a Bitcoin now and half later. When he gets the initial payment, he will give up the name of the main individual. Referring to the main individual clearly suggests there are accomplices. He refers to the current state of Nancy Guthrie will not be specific. So again, And this, he appears by now to be saying she has died. That's number three. Then we get to number four, Sunday, February 15th. So that's four letters in as many days. And there he claimed at 9.36 PM, I know what I saw five days ago south of the border.

1:10:46And I was told to shut up. So I know who he is. And that was definitely Nancy with them. So again, trying to titillate. And then finally we get to what technically now are notes five and six, but as of this week would be one and two, which we went through, where he demands for one Bitcoin to deliver them on a silver platter, saying the offer still stands. He's not suggesting Nancy's still alive. In the first note, he does say she is dead. The first letter says it's unbelievable that millions have been wasted, and yet here I am willing to deliver them on a silver platter since the 11th of February for a Bitcoin, but I am disregarded as a scam.

1:11:28They are free and the case is frozen, but the egos remain hot when it comes to me. Arrogance at its finest. Just FYI, the wrong use of the possessive of the apostrophe twice in that last phrase. They are free and the case is frozen, but the egos remain ha, egos is E-G-O apostrophe S, incorrectly. When it comes to me, arrogance at its finest, that its should be I-T-S. Instead, he puts an apostrophe between the T and the S. So I'm not sure how well educated our guy here is. And then in this same note, the first of this week, but the fifth overall, he tries to distance himself from Nancy's kidnapping, claiming that he's been out of the U.S.

1:12:15for more than five years and had nothing to do with the, quote, horrific crime. Then Harvey talks about the note on TMZ and the person sends a second one, or again, by our count now, the sixth, writing, I saw her alive with them in the state of Sonora, Mexico, and says he's not motivated by greed, insisting, I just want what's fair and to live peacefully with enough to start my life again quietly without having to join a witness protection program. There's a lot in there. All right. So we're going to stick with the six notes before we get to what's the most interesting, which is the two that we now know the FBI considers legit.

1:12:53Why? I mean, Will, can you expand on your theory that this guy, he may in fact be the actual kidnapper or connected to the actual kidnapper? Yeah, that's not uncommon, Megan. You will have individuals that will try and take on various different personas. And it's almost like casting the widest net they possibly can to see who is going to bite and under what particular narrative are people going to bite. But I'm with James on this one. I think this individual is a scammer. There's a lot of desperation behind this. And there's no substantive evidence that's being given to support his claims that he's either seeing Nancy or he's actually he knows her specific whereabouts.

1:13:38Now, anybody, unless he's actually disconnected or not connected to the actual kidnappers, it is someone that has literally been within the vicinity where they witnessed Nancy. I would say this individual is still involved in some degree of criminality because otherwise they would work with law enforcement. I'm sure Savannah, I'm sure the Bureau would work very well with him and Savannah would be more than willing to pay some kind of bounty, probably more than$35 ,000 to retrieve her mother's body so that they can give her a civilized funeral. Now, the biggest issue that I have is the fact that there's been zero proof of life.

1:14:17There's been zero substantive evidence. And until someone can actually give that, and I've had individuals who have, again, once you start negotiating onto a new platform where the hostage is actually dead, everybody accepts that they're dead. They They don't make any bones about it. Everybody knows it. And you move progressively on that level. And ultimately, any deal that's done or is struck is inevitably not going to be as good as what was initially maybe demanded. The$5,$6 million mark right at the beginning, Megan, that's an interesting one because many international insurances really will cover on K &R up to about$5 million.

1:14:57So this is potentially someone who does know how the system works to a certain degree. Hmm. Okay, James, what do you think? Because one of the issues I have in analyzing the guy who wrote the six notes, even though the second one was his last communication, is he could get 1.2 million from the FBI if he can provide information leading to either Nancy's body, Nancy, or the kidnappers. And instead he's trying to cash in for the low, low price of whatever it is, $72 ,000 or whatever you can get a Bitcoin for today. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm with you on that. The first thing I thought about was why one Bitcoin when you can get$1.2 million.

1:15:42But let's go back to the words. I think the words are very important. And you nailed it. You know, my final offer was at letter two, and then here come four more. And so, you know, his bluff, if you will, was called, and he's like, no, and he's hanging on. He's trying anything he can because he just wants to get some money because eventually somebody might pay. He's probably done this before, and they try a lot of different tricks, and one of them is persistence. But I think it's important. He's also saying some things, well, two things. You mentioned it on language, the way in which the apostries were used.

1:16:14I think when I read the stuff, I thought English was not the first language of the individual. Writing it, you know, English is not their first language, just by the way some of those sentences were organized. But the second thing is that he knows the case. And so that's, you know, to me, very curious. It's almost like, you know, a fan of the case and wants to be recognized in some way, shape or form. And that, you know, is why they're going through TMZ, because TMZ is so hot on this thing. But Will continues to go back to it. And it's incredibly difficult for me to understand, you know, that we're here, you know, almost 67 days later.

1:16:53we have still no one has given us a proof of life okay this whole thing is unorthodox you don't go through tmz as an intermediate intermediary you go to the family or you go to law enforcement or both and you try to you know get your money so the whole thing has always been very very unorthodox and then the last thing i wanted to say and will mentioned it was just with regards um Oh, God. Go ahead, Will. I watched it. Yeah. You know what? It's happened to all of us. I think James picked up on a really valid point there, Megan. The individuals that either are the legitimate kidnappers or are the fanboys or fangirls of a kidnapping and are seeking to exploit it in some shape or form by putting in bogus ransom demands, Their viewing, their scouring of the media, even potentially watching us and watching your dear self, obviously covering this and seeing the various different analysts and pundits that a former agency or former bureau or former MyWorld who will actually sort of give their thoughts and ideas of what's going on.

1:18:05They'll be watching all of that avidly. And that will have a lot of bearing on how their OPSEC is. And inevitably, the Bureau, who's been sort of front and center on this, will be very guarded about their information, which is why I'm very cautious about what Mr. Levin has been saying, because I think it's him speculating on minimal information that he's been given. Why? Why would he? I don't know. Maybe this is a dumb question, James, but like he knows this is a crime. I mean, he knows this is a crime. He knows that he's the law enforcement's all over this case. The FBI is involved. Does it seem at all reckless to send not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, six, six felonious notes to Harvey Levin at TMZ?

1:18:55Like, is that I know these scammers love to scam, but it's one thing when you're calling grandma and it's another when you you've got the eyes of the FBI and multiple cops looking at every single thing you're doing. Yeah, I mean, a couple of things there. One, they're not they're not concerned at all about consequences or two, they just don't think that that'll actually happen because they live in a country where they don't think, you know, the FBI is going to come get them or the crime is not of such, you know, severity that the bureau would go down and snatch them up. and so they just don't feel like there's any real consequence for doing all of this i mean and and i just remember my point that will was making and that's this unorthodox nature of you know we're having to get information on this case from levin right like we you're asking all the right questions and ashley is also but where is the fbi where is the sheriff why are they not answering these very good questions you have like why didn't you pay the ransom you just asked that question earlier You know, like, why didn't you pay the ransom?

1:19:54Well, that's a great question. FBI, Kash Patel. What happened? What's the deal? You know, I'm sure they say something that sounds a lot like what Wilson saying. Well, we had no proof of life. And then lastly, with number two, you know, there is not a person walking this planet that doesn't have a cell phone. Number two could have taken a picture of Nancy when he, quote unquote, saw her in Sonora, which that's a whole thing. But he didn't. And that would have bolstered his case exponentially and made me not think he's a scammer. If he had sent a picture in to Harvey saying, hey, here she is. OK, now we're getting somewhere.

1:20:26But no such evidence came. No such proof came. And, you know, I don't really like the reporting of someone saying, you know, that this guy gave specific information as to where she was. Sonora is huge. Like just saying I saw her in Sonora is that's ridiculous. OK, can you be more specific, please? It is a very large location. OK, it would be like saying I saw her in New York City. Or Jimmy Hoffa is in New Jersey, like everyone always told us. Okay. Like, yeah, I've heard that before. You heard it. Ladies and gentlemen, that's from an actual former FBI agent here. New Jersey is a huge place. I mean, we heard that all the time.

1:21:05Wait, before I go back to Will, I got to ask you a follow-up, James, as the former FBI guy. Note number six to Harvey, and Harvey got at least one of the two notes that may have come from the real kidnapper. wouldn't the FBI by this point have put some sort of tracing ability on Harvey's email since it's like the central receptacle for all kidnapping notes? Like I can see why they couldn't find the first two, you know, but like at this point, when you think the FBI would have said, Harvey, yo, we're going to have to rig it such that everything that comes in is now traceable by us. and this guy should be in federal custody soon.

1:21:50Well, be careful with that word traceable. I mean, you're really good with words. And so we got to be real careful with our words. And even though, yeah, what you're saying, I don't want to talk way too much about it, but that's probably something that on the back end is happening. But remember, there is a myriad of ways to obfuscate, hide, and really use an email account that's very hard to find. And it's, you know, it's all over the Internet. You can find out how to do it. So it is possible that they're just coming up, you know, blank with where the IP address is. Just that could be happening.

1:22:29I'm not saying it is, but it's possible. So even if they have some sort of FBI technology connected now to TMZ's form website, again, we've talked about this. It's not an email. It's like go on TMZ.com and type in a tip. Right. You know, so-and-so just got arrested for drunk driving and you just submit. And so the information that you have to provide is minimal and the information of your computer is apparently, or at least you can make it, untraceable. Because they would have traced it by now on both the first ransom note writer and this second guy. Or very, very difficult. I mean, there's not to get too much into tradecraft, but, you know, there's all kinds of cafes where Internet cafes are popping up and you can go in fictitiously, get on a site, put in some information and leave.

1:23:18And then, you know, the bureau or whoever is investigating it, they got to go and get camera footage. If there is such camera footage, if the person hasn't obfuscated their their face, if they pay cash. I mean, it's really hard. It's hard to capture. Go ahead, Will. Yeah, I mean, James is absolutely right. And I don't think we want to do a DIY on how to kidnap someone on your show. But, you know, if they've used an email account, you know, there are ways to reply to that email account to actually put a bit of script behind it. You then grab an IP address and get past their VPN. But, I mean, there are various different ways, like James said.

1:23:56You can either use remote locations. There are various different types of internet email service online that will literally self-destruct after five minutes. Again, there are so many variables without knowing the details. It's difficult to say whether the FBI would have something to potentially follow up on. But one of the things that I would be doing right now, Megan, and I've done this before when we lost contact with kidnappers on a particular case in Latin America, was that we actually did a distributed missing persons notification in the area that we believed the hostage was being held. Now, Sonora is big, but it's not that big.

1:24:34And I would be rather spending$35 ,000 putting out flyers, doing optimisation through local Facebook, various chat groups, to anybody who could potentially provide either a witness account of them seeing where Nancy is or reporting any other detail that they can with a bounty attached to it. You're hitting a low-income sort of community. And so you could put a bounty at a fairly rational level that would incentivize people to potentially call in and notify any information that, again, could be followed on. It's been very successful when I've used it. It's been successful, I know, for other teams who've used it.

1:25:14Well, can we talk about the 36 ,000? So, you know, ransom note writer, number two, he wants one Bitcoin, half now and half after he delivers. And that's 36 grand times two. It's not that much money. Guys, I'm tempted to pay it. I just feel like I'm not going to. Don't kidnap my relatives. But like Savannah, she could easily afford that. So does that tell us that the FBI 100 % thinks that this guy is fake news because she could easily afford that? I think she probably makes that in a day. And so like just to shut this guy up or just to like see or just to maybe trace, right? Because when they take the money out of the account, there's some traceability at that point.

1:26:00Like, why not just do it? Because it's a punt. It won't, I'm sorry. No, no, no, James. I mean, I was just going to say it's a gamble. And unfortunately, you open up a Pandora's box of other individuals coming out of the woodwork. Sorry, James, over to you. No, I'm with you a million percent. You drop in the$36 ,000 or the full Bitcoin,$72 ,000, and what's going to happen the next day? Oh, by the way, I'm going to need a little bit more because I have a new problem that's just come up, and I really want to get you the information, but I'm just going to need one more. And they got you on the line, so they figured they're going to keep milking you.

1:26:39I mean, this is how scams work. And they prey upon immediacy and feelings and all of these things. And that's why they're good at it. And that's what happens. But I think if— Isn't it worth it just to nab him, though? Like if you have a chance of nabbing him once he withdraws the$36 ,000. What do you mean? You mean arrest him? Yeah. In Mexico? Like once he withdraws the money. If he's in Mexico, I think he's probably in a foreign country. If he's in Mexico, that's very, very difficult to do. I mean, the Bureau can ask the Mexicans, but they're not going to have FBI agents on the streets of Mexico just snatching a guy up, you know, taking his Bitcoin out.

1:27:19It doesn't work like that. All right. Stand by. Stand by. I'm going to get you to finish that thought. We're going to talk about the so-called real ransom notes in one minute. Don't go away. We're going to carry over. Let's talk about what's really happening right now. New data shows that financial stress is at an all-time high for some. Many Americans are at a breaking point. Debt maxed out, no extra dough, no room to breathe. And some people are running out of options. Listen, if debt has been weighing on you, you're not alone. And when it comes to debt, waiting usually makes it worse. Interest piles up, minimum payments keep you stuck, but you don't need another loan or bankruptcy.

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1:29:25Along with The Megyn Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news. Only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

1:29:45They have done everything they can, from what I understand, to figure out who sent these notes. they were on with my IT team for hours and hours and hours working with my IT team. And they came up dry and they could not find it. And they still haven't found out who wrote it. This is a cold case. And they're just waiting for one of those breaks that often comes. But they are at a dead end right now. That was more of Harvey Levin speaking to Ashley Banfield. Cold case, dead end, not what you want to hear when your 84-year-old mom remains missing. Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show. Will Geddes and James Hamilton are back with me.

1:30:35Those words are just so ominous, James. Cold case, dead end. They've got nothing. Nothing. They've got like these two little notes that came to Harvey on Monday seem to be the most promising thing, But we all, well, you and I think they're a scam. Will also thinks they're a scam, but thinks there's a possibility they could be related to the actual kidnapper that we can't rule that out. But they've got nothing, which is why I'm back on pay the 36 ,000 bucks. Watch them withdraw that money from the Bitcoin account and see if you can find something that leads you to this guy just to at least see whether he's legit.

1:31:14And let's play that string out just a little bit more. If the individual is in another country, which I think they are, and we don't get them, by the way, what are they going to do? They're going to tell five or six of their buddies, hey, this is what happened, and I got it. And guess what Harvey's going to get tomorrow? He's going to get six more letters, right? And they're all going to have a little bit of salt, a little bit of touch of realness, enough to get him to report on. It's worth a shot. Why? Well, I just got$72 ,000 for doing nothing. I might as well try it. And that's a lot of money in certain parts of the world.

1:31:48So that's why I wouldn't do it. And there's just no guarantee that on the back end, I'd have the support to actually make the arrest. Right. What do you make of the fact that, well, in the, let's switch now and start talking about the ransom note writer number one, who now we know from Savannah herself and now from Harvey revealing what he was told by the FBI, that they both thought this was the actual kidnapper, which is, I mean, that's quite a headline. You know, we kind of gleaned it from Savannah's soundbite, but now you have Harvey saying the FBI thinks it's the guy. It was the guy. Explain to me why they wouldn't have said, Savannah, we think this guy actually has your mom.

1:32:29It is, we don't, I can't remember whether they knew they received the note on the, Nancy went missing overnight Saturday to Sunday. They either got this, I think they got it on Tuesday. They definitely had it by Wednesday. And the first deadline was Thursday. Pay$4 million by Thursday and you can have her or pay$6 million by Monday. Why on Tuesday or Wednesday wouldn't they have said, this is legit? We think it's legit. Look at these descriptions of what they saw inside of your mom's house. Let's pay it. I'm sure Savannah said, let's pay it, right? $4 million. It's a lot, but it's your mom. Would the advice always have been not unless they can provide proof of life?

1:33:12Absolutely. Megan, it's one of those things, and we're going to circle back to this again and again, it really does come down to proof of life or proof of death. It's one of two things. Whoever and how legitimate they may sound really cannot be substantiated until you have it. The one thing that I am disappointed in is that there hasn't been a change in tack, either using Levin or the FBI making a direct statement or even Savannah making a statement of re-strategising how to retrieve her if she is dead. Because at the moment, as Harvey Levin says, you know, it's pretty much stalled in the water.

1:33:51Nothing is further going to happen. And until such time, and that's the hard part. When you're doing the negotiation, the hard part is the time period between when you anticipate the next contact's going to be made. But during that time, you do what we call contact preparation. So you prepare yourself for all types of responses or solicitations that might possibly be coming through from who supposedly is the kidnapper. But again, it comes back to, look, guys, we'll give you the money. We don't have a problem with that. We will pay you your amount if it's reasonable and practical to be able to do so.

1:34:26Because again, depending on how it's delivered would be very, very hard. Certainly I can say without incriminating myself in certain parts of the world, if you're trying to pay 3 million plus, getting that kind of money locally or getting it into that location is very difficult. And if that was going to be in Mexico, that would be a challenge, regardless of however easy people might believe it might be. So really, it comes back to proof of life, Megan, until they could prove that, or proof of death. And it only has to be a photograph of Nancy to be able to do so, or video of Nancy, ideally, that could be obviously verified that it's not AI'd or deepfaked or anything else.

1:35:05Then, unfortunately, it's always going to be a stalemate. I mean, there was communication, James. We know that the family, they came on camera, the three of them. That was the first we saw them. After Nancy had been taken, they were holding hands. Savannah spoke mostly, and they said, we need to know that you have her. You know, that's the video when she said talk to her and you'll see, you know, she's a nice person. But she said, we need to know that you have her. So she was asking for proof of life. And there was a second communication that we don't know anything about. I mean, we had one report from nerdy addict who's been all over this case.

1:35:46But it's unconfirmed that maybe that second note had some more details in it, possibly about Nancy no longer being alive. But that's totally unconfirmed. All we've had confirmed about the second note is from Kagan, the local Tucson station that did receive it, saying the person's trying to convince you, us, that I'm reading from it here. The new note contains something the senders seem to think will prove to investigators that they're the same people who sent the first note. So that's weird. I mean, that doesn't tell us much. It could just be that Kagan is more discreet than Harvey and held back other details.

1:36:22But the kidnapper, if that's the kidnapper, did respond to the family because their desperate video came out that Wednesday. And we did just check our days. That ransom note, the first one was received on Tuesday. So Nancy's gone. She's discovered missing Sunday morning. Tuesday at 1.12 p.m. is when that first demand came in for the$4 million slash$6 million. The family responded on Wednesday evening. We need to know you have her. And Thursday, we get the second note to only Kagan, no longer Harvey at 530 p.m. And then that's it. Nothing. Nothing more. Yeah, I'm with Will. You know, again, the FBI wants to get her back.

1:37:09They don't care about four million dollars or six million. If that's what it takes, that's what it's going to take. But they want to get her back. And, you know, for me, as I'm again, I'm not there in it. I'm hearing these, you know, what's being reported. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that the Bureau had the evidence that suggested, hey, this isn't real. We should not pay it because, as Will's saying, there's no proof that he has her. And we can't just throw money away and your hopes and all of the trust, confidence you're trying to build with a family. It's going to go right out the window.

1:37:42If you pay$4 million and nothing happens, you don't get her back, you know anything like that and so again you know when harvey's saying that you know the fbi was serious about it well yeah of course they were serious this was a couple days into it and and they're running every lead to the ground that they get you know as they should and and that makes sense to me but there had to have been something that those the team said hey look there's just not enough here for us to feel comfortable saying to you savannah or family hey this is a good idea But even now, even now, Savannah thinks those notes were real.

1:38:19Here she is, just as a reminder, in her Today Show interview dated March 26th, thought 23. There are a lot of different notes, I think, that came. And I think most of them, it's my understanding, are not real. And I didn't see them. But, you know, a person that would send a fake ransom note really has to look deeply at themselves. Yeah. To a family in pain. but i believe

1:38:57the two notes that we received that we responded to i tend to believe those are real so she still believes it will which is like a special torture yeah because now they didn't pay and if she believes they're real she believes those people have her mother or at least had her mother and they didn't pay. I mean, that's just a special kind of hell. Yeah, I've seen this before, Megan. And unfortunately, more often than not, the reason this will happen where the family members or family member will start having a heightened level of positivity about the possible outcome or a good outcome. And sorry, James, don't wish to be disrespectful to your old brethren, but it may be one of the case managers who initially in their eagerness to try and get this matter underway and this case handled, injected a little bit too much hope inside her.

1:39:59The one thing when I've trained negotiators myself, the one thing that I always say to them is, number one, and I've told you this one before, Megan, never lie, that's number one rule, because if you do, you're going to come unstuck. Secondly, is remain as neutral as possible. Even when you've got the proof of life, even when you've agreed the ransom amount, until you get the hostage back in one piece, there's really, you've got to remain as neutral as possible. And my concern is those first two letters, it may have been misinterpreted by a young case officer or someone attached to the investigation who gave her idea.

1:40:36It may not have been the Bureau. It could have been Mr. Levine. It could have been other commentators in the media. Obviously not your good self who's being pragmatic about this, but the others may have given those glimmers of hope. Well, that leads me to the next thing I wanted to cover with you guys, which is Brian Enten continues to report on this case, and he has been digging on the local PD and Sheriff Nanos and has a couple of new reveals, which are not great. They're not great. I'll give you the first one here in SOT 26, where he's citing a source close to the investigation. Were the initial people who responded inexperienced?

1:41:20The people that were there on the scene were not 10-year homicide detectives. They didn't have a lot of experience in homicide at that point, to include the supervisor, who, from my understanding, never investigated homicide before being installed as the supervisor for the homicide unit. So wait, so the supervisor who first responded to Nancy Guthrie's house had never investigated a homicide? How is that possible? Well, so you have decisions made by people that will install friends and people that can do stuff for them, opposed to people that are there on their merit and can do the job correctly.

1:42:03He said for the listening audience that it results from people who want to install people in roles who can do something for them, as opposed to on merit. And just one more before I give it to you, James, a follow-up from that same interview, SOT27. What would you say are the biggest mistakes when it comes to the Nancy Guthrie investigation from what you know? Speaking with some people that actually know the intimate knowledges of this investigation have told me that there was an immediate rush to judgment on what was happening at that scene. And it was that Nancy had somehow wandered off. And so they rushed to that judgment, stayed with that judgment, and then ran the investigation as if this was a search and rescue issue opposed to a possible criminal issue.

1:42:48What do you make of that, James? Yeah, that's what we were talking about last week where Savannah kept saying, you know, you don't understand. She can't walk to the mailbox. And I think I said, you know, this sounds like the responding deputies were trying to talk her into a narrative of, you know, she just walked away. There's probably nothing to it. versus looking at it holistically and, you know, this could be something more than that. And so now this undercover individual is basically confirming that. And that's exactly what I thought was going on, was they didn't understand what they had.

1:43:21And obviously some mistakes were made, and we're all seeing those now. And it's callous to say, but I'm not surprised by what he's saying, that the homicide detective or the sergeant of the homicide unit has never worked a homicide. That doesn't surprise me at all. There has to be accountability. And, you know, people have to get involved and ask questions. And if you're electing a sheriff, you know, you got to who are you electing, first of all? And then second of all, who are these people that you're hiring? There has to be accountability. And, you know, thank God we got people like you asking hard questions because, you know, these things shouldn't be going on, but they are.

1:43:58and how i mean the the thought of what evidence could have been lost that first day will if you have you know a newbie or someone who's relatively inexperienced supervising the whole thing i mean it's exactly the kind of thing that could lead to what harvey said at the top of the hour at you know 14 minutes ago no leads cold case completely keystone as we've said continually about how the sheriff has run this operation. It's like sending an electrician to do a plumbing job. They had entirely the wrong people on it. They approached it by having a prismed and focused sort of agenda that it was literally a search and rescue rather than it was potentially anything.

1:44:43Remember when they opened up the crime scene within two days? And it took them three days to get the bureau involved. I mean, the whole thing is just catastrophic in terms of mismanagement. And ultimately, there are some serious questions. They had turned the house back over to the family. That's right. Yeah, it was Monday evening. But there's some serious questions and accountability that the sheriff has got to answer to as to why he deployed the wrong people. I mean, I would be doing such a massive investigation on them and the evident incompetence. I'm sure people who were tasked by the sheriff probably were confused as much as anybody else as to why they were being tasked.

1:45:22Here, the sheriff did speak out to News 4 in Tucson, and here's a little of what he said. This sergeant's been the supervisor of homicide for over two years. And in that time, he solved some pretty significant, very high-profile cases for this area. The Reddington homicide, the Goodwill homicide, and they solved those within days. But you cannot attack my department. attack the sheriff, but you will not get by with attacking my department. With reports coming out that his investigators made mistakes in the early stages of Guthrie's disappearance, this is what Nanos had to say. Discrediting an investigation like this doesn't help anything.

1:46:04It's very harmful. No, we don't believe there were any mistakes made. As for the recent reports that he should step down from being our sheriff. For 50 years, every sheriff here has had that. I can't listen to that. That's white noise. I'm not going to stand for it. These people work hard every day to keep our community safe. what's with the feelings talk james that's harmful you know to to to talk about the investigation not being well done that's harmful it's just like his talk around the speculation about whether a family member may have been involved in the disappearance you know like that's hurtful what do you what do you is this oprah or is it a homicide investigation well it sounds a lot like oprah um to answer your question it doesn't sound a lot like a homicide investigation and you know Feelings are an interesting thing, but when we're trying to find a lady, 84 years old, feelings kind of have to take a back seat.

1:47:00We have to get results, and sometimes that does hurt feelings. I'm sorry, I'm not in the feelings business. We need to be in the results business. We need to find this woman. To say that no mistakes were made, it's a pretty incredulous statement based on the knowledge we have now. Yeah, right? Would you ever say such a thing? Can you imagine that, Will? Like, no, zero mistakes. Oh, come on. Yeah, I mean, firstly, you lose all credibility and integrity by making a blanket statement like that. We all make mistakes. I mean, it's inevitable. And, you know, there's a golden rule in our world, and as I'm sure it is with James and his teams, that when you make a mistake, you fess up to it straight away, and then you can crack on.

1:47:41You resolve it, you remediate, and you move on to the next step. But he shows no integrity. Well, he did admit to releasing the crime scene too soon earlier in this case. He did admit to that. Remember, he was like, okay, that's on me. I'll take responsibility. And now it's zero mistakes were made. He doesn't even remember what he's previously said about it. I'm going to go back to Brian Enten and that guy in shadow who's clearly from the Pima County Sheriff's Department, though. He's just described as the source close to the investigation. Listen to him. This is on Sheriff Nono's SOT 28. What would you want to say to the sheriff if you could?

1:48:17I would say that he ruined a great department. It's savable. He ruined a great department. If he steps aside. It's savable. How would you describe morale at the sheriff's office right now? I would say right now it's extremely low. This is the lowest I've seen it. There's a lot of embarrassment, especially with the news kind of conversations that I've had with. Nanos, his interaction with the media. A lot of embarrassment over Nanos' interaction with the media. Who could blame them, Will? No, who could blame them? I mean, to be honest, I wouldn't want to be working with this clown. I would want to put as much distance as I possibly can.

1:49:00I think the concern is this man's got way too much ego. He's bathing in the spotlight of the attention that he's getting. I mean, I think it was inevitable by the fact that, you know, He was unwilling to address that question about whether he should resign and deferred it through to his team and said, well, everyone's doing a brilliant job. Well, yeah, they probably are, but you're not leading particularly well. Megan, I had it. What do you think of what he said there, James? The supervisor had been on the job for two years. Well, that probably usually means 18 months. There's always this little bit of math that they do, which you got to elongate the years of service to make it sound more impressive.

1:49:37uh-huh um but okay did not know right so okay two years great and and they say he saw like a homicide down the street or whatever did he do that or did um you know did the detectives that worked underneath him do that that's usually what i found and usually you know the department i came from you were a detective and then you saw some stuff and then you became a sergeant and then you became a lieutenant so there was actually you know you knew what the hell you were doing um but i was curious if you had heard, I was reading this morning that News Nation and this Brian Enten, that they were the ones that found the blood on the porch.

1:50:12Is that your understanding or did I read that wrong? Well, I mean, the family seems to have known about it. Do you mean like, did he find it before the family? Correct. Like, no, that he saw the blood on the porch. Yes, that picture. And that they had to call back to the sheriff's office to say, hey, there's blood on this porch. and then they processed it. That's what I read this morning. Is that not right? Oh, good gracious. I've never heard that. Okay. I've never heard that before. I mean, I heard that, I heard that, you know, they got there and they did find blood inside the house and that the pattern continued outside the house.

1:50:49Okay. And I don't know when Brian was able to get that tape. I know he, I think he aired it at Monday night. It was that Monday night they released the crime scene. He was like, okay, great. I'll go over there and see it. So who knows? But it's possible, James. James, anything's possible with this crew. That would have been a good follow-up question to the sheriff, you know, about the mistakes being made. Is it true that the news found the blood in the driveway or on the set? Well, you know, we do know. You know, we know for a fact, James, they didn't find that other camera on the roof of Nancy's home until a week later.

1:51:19It's like, yeah. That's right. You didn't think to look everywhere for cameras? That seems like a really relevant thing to find out. How many cameras does she have? Who installed them? Call the contractor. Find out where they're all hidden. You know, I mean, that's just one basic thing that they didn't do. So it's just so frustrating because everybody wants answers. In the meantime, Savannah is back on the set. I want to show a little bit of her return, which was just this past Monday. Here's how that looked in SOT30. Pretty shot of the sun coming up. Good morning. Welcome to today on this Monday morning.

1:51:58We are so glad you started your week with us. And it is good to be home. Yes, it is good to have you back at home. Well, here we go. Ready or not. Let's do the news. Yes. So good to have you back. All right. There's a lot. So there was a report that they told the staffers on the Today Show, don't mention it. Let's just go forward. And I think that's very good, right? Because you know how it is when you've had something bad happen to you and anybody expresses empathy for you. It immediately brings up, you know, the feelings. And you guys probably don't cry when that happens to you. but I do. I tear up whenever everybody's feeling sorry for me.

1:52:31It's like the worst possible thing. So that was well done, I thought. And she's got now to go on with her life, guys. Like you've probably seen this happen before to crime victims who have to return to normal life, including a job. Everybody works. And in her case, it's with a twist because it's not just she's a crime victim. her mom is still missing. And for all she knows is still out there somewhere. I mean, I think most of us assume she's no longer living, but we actually don't know. So you have to go back and resume your life on a sunny morning show and act cheerful and bright and like, you know, do this silly cooking segments and all the nonsense that comes with morning TV.

1:53:19I don't know. Any thoughts on that? James, I'll start with you. like having been in law enforcement for so long? Yeah, I would say, you know, there is no normal. I think you said like she'll return to her normal life. No more. There's no more normal life for her. Right. She will live with this every single day. And that's why this is worse. I mean, it's obviously terrible if the mother is dead, but at least you know it. You can grieve, you can bury her and you can try to move on and, you know, go on with your life to some degree. But when that individual is just is missing and there's no closure it is every single day she's going to think about it she's going to you know wake up thinking about it she's going to get emails notes letters nbc is getting going to get flooded by you know people who have real evil in their hearts saying oh i know where she is or how dare you go back to work and all this terrible stuff right this lady is going to deal with all that and i feel i mean i feel awful about her about it and this reminded me of like the very first time I was with you, this is what I was afraid of.

1:54:22I was afraid there would be no leads, there would be no closure, and there'd be no arrest. And here we are. That's the thing that really, really is tragic about this case. The other piece of it is, and I mean, you know this very well, Will, given what you do, both of you guys. If I were in her position, I'd be so scared about the rest of my family. I'd be more scared than ever about my kids, my husband, myself, you know, even her brother and sister. Like I, because you don't know who did this and why, whether they've got something against your family, that's still a possibility, Will. It's like, she's got to go on and function in this world with family members now, wondering if someone's out to get them.

1:55:09Yeah, I mean, I would say the first thing, hopefully that was afforded to Savannah was obviously some close protection for herself and her family. Although we didn't see it for the sister and for the brother-in-law, which I found kind of curious. Now, the number of times in 30 odd years of doing this, have I seen other members of the family getting kidnapped? Unless they're all in a very high risk, hostile environment, it's very rare that that actually happens. So the installation of close protection around the family is really to provide them with some sort of reassurance so that they can sleep at night so they're not hearing strange noises in the house and and waking up and thinking oh my god I'm going to be next but it's very important that it only goes in for a limited amount of time because it can become a bit of a safety blanket and then when you withdraw that blanket it's very difficult so I would hope and I've I've had this with other cases and I agree with James and yourself, 100%.

1:56:04She hasn't got that closure. And this is what Savannah needs. She needs closure to know what happened to her mum and where is her mum. So I hope that she's getting a great deal of assessments and therapy right now and being able to talk to someone who's experienced in managing these kinds of situations and managing the victims of these kinds of situations because that's the only way that really she'll be able to get through it, however brave her face she's putting on things. It's so impossible because not only has she had to go on with her life, but her life is across the country. You can't even go search, you know, when you're done with your shift.

1:56:43I mean, I know I've maintained contact with the parents of baby Lisa Irwin, who was stolen from her crib in the middle of the night out of Missouri and Kansas City. And they, they, they too, like they had their baby taken from her crib. Like, how do you go on? I don't, I don't want to compare tragedies, but I'm just saying like that, that would, the one comfort in losing Nancy is she's at least at end of life. You know, I mean, I know this is like grasping for straw at straws here, but like a baby whose every need depends on you, who you're supposed to keep safe. I just don't know how you'd live with that as a parent.

1:57:27And they've had to. Debra and Jeremy have had to go on, and they look at every stroller they did for years, the first few years. And now they look at every young teenager and think, could it be her? Could it be her? We've been trying to help them putting Lisa's picture on as done by the Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Children, it's just, it's so much to ask of just a human to just try to function in your life and not know. I don't know. I'm definitely saying prayers for her. She did share an Easter message with this church, Good Shepherd in New York, and it was, it sort of betrayed some of the difficulty that she's been feeling when it comes to faith and how this could have happened.

1:58:11Here's a bit of that, Sop 32. We celebrate today the promise of a new life that never ends in death. But standing here today, I have to tell you, there are moments in which that promise seems irretrievably far away. When life itself seems far harder than death. These moments of deep disappointment with God. The feeling of utter abandonment. in my own season of trial, I have wondered, I have questioned whether Jesus really ever experienced this particular wound that I feel, this grievous and uniquely cruel injury of not knowing, of uncertainty and confusion, and answers withheld. In those darkest moments, I have thought bitterly and perhaps irreverently that I have stumbled upon a feeling that Jesus did not know.

1:59:11But after Jesus died, on the cross he cried out, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? That is the anguished cry of someone who does not know the answers. Perhaps this is too dark a message to share on Easter morning. But I have long believed that we miss out on fully celebrating resurrection if we do not acknowledge the feelings of loss, pain, and yes, death. It is the darkness that makes this morning's light so magnificent, so blindingly beautiful. I look at that, James, and she's in a dark place. Just her tone, the overall message, where she went on Easter with it. How long does it take in your experience?

1:59:58Is there not a usual for emerging out the other side and being able to feel happy again and feel joyful? She'll have moments of that. She'll have moments of joy and times of happiness, but there will be a melancholy sadness about her for quite a long time. You know, I was kind of, I was listening curiously to her, you know, Easter statement, because at least if she has faith, then she has something. If she has no faith and she doesn't believe there is anything after this life, then that would be an incredibly sad situation for her to kind of wrestle with that, you know, there is no goodness for her mother.

2:00:44But as I've read, her mother was a believer and she's a believer. And, you know, there is some joy in that. But as far as on this earth, she'll never be the same. Therapy is right. Will's right. Therapy does work and it does help, but there's no closure. And until that happens, again, I mean, I think if we even had her body, that it would help her immensely. And I know she probably would want to hear that, but she understands what I'm saying when I say that. Do you think, Will, that there's any chance Nancy Guthrie's still alive? I don't. I don't. I think when we take into consideration her heart condition and the fact that the medication wasn't taken from her bedside table, and I don't think these guys were necessarily organized enough to have done their research and got the suitable prescriptive medicines.

2:01:37I don't I sadly don't think she is alive. I think the other issue as well is, as James rightly says, it's a question of getting the body back now. And there are still lots of avenues that can be explored if managed by the right people. And I think there are enough assets, you know, within the private sector as well as law enforcement down in Mexico that can potentially assist with the search. And again, it's going to be a human intelligence operation trying to determine who might have been involved in it and then closing in on it. But it's also getting a message out to the kidnappers to say, look, yes, Nancy may have passed away.

2:02:15However, regardless whether she's still alive or she's not, we want to give her suitable burial. And please, can you get in touch? We will pay for it. I mean, I myself went to go and recover someone's family, a family member's body. and it was literally a case of the individuals involved giving me the coordinates of where the body was buried and then obviously me going down there, exhuming it and getting it back to the family. Oh my goodness. I mean, at least maybe they could start with what you said, go to Sonora, Mexico and put up some of those billboards that we discussed them putting up in the Southwestern United States, showing Nancy's picture and the picture of the perpetrator on the doorstep to see if it shakes something loose with the big$1.2 million sign next to it.

2:03:03That's right. You never know. I mean, it's at least a hedging. You guys, thank you. I'm sure we'll be talking again soon. It's great to see you both. Good to see you, Megan. Thank you, Megan. Yeah, have a great weekend. You too. And all of you have a great weekend too. Thank you so much for joining us this week. Love talking to you. Love doing the news with all of you. And we'll do it all over again on Monday. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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