Michelle Obama Trashes Motherhood, and Lindsay Clancy Trial Closing Arguments Breakdown, with Jesse Kelly, Phil Holloway and Lauren Conlin | Ep. 1388

25:38And he's like, man, just do it. Just cry. Let it go. That's unbelievable. Like, honestly, she's looking to humiliate him. You know, just the imitation of him choking up. And obviously, he's the sentimental one between the two of them. I think, Jesse, the reason he was probably trying to hold it in is because he's married to a stone hearted sociopath who clearly felt almost nothing there. She claims she cried. But boy, very different messaging in that sound. But I just played with Jon Stewart. Yeah, it's Michelle Obama. I almost in a way that I need to clarify in a way I almost feel a little bit bad for her.

26:22I do this sometimes when it comes to wealthy, powerful people who are obviously miserable. I mean, you only get one shot at this life, whether you're poor or rich or famous or nobody knows who you are. You're not going to get to do over. You don't you don't get to come back and try it again. So imagine if you get unbelievable blessings on this earth and you're just miserable the entire time. What a waste of a wonderful life that would be, whether you're rich or poor. If you never find anything to smile about, if you never look around and think, This is wonderful. How have you ever in her years?

26:56What is it now, Megan, 20 years, something like that of them being in the public eye? Do you ever remember a time of that woman seeming genuinely full of joy and happiness? I never remember. She's always mad, always miserable, always offended, always. It's a constant state of affairs. And you know what? Speaking of people I don't like who I feel a little bit bad for, because I can't stand Barack Obama. I think he really did a lot to destroy the United States of America. imagine being stuck tethered to that thing for the rest of your life i'll tell you what i would golf more than anybody's ever i'd be on the pga tour because i'd spend so much time on the golf course i'd be like well you know honey i have a business meeting in saudi arabia i'll be back in a couple weeks i would be gone forever you'd never see me or just get a divorce like the children are grown, get a divorce.

27:49Barack Obama would have no trouble finding someone to actually love him and root for him and have stars in her eyes for him. No trouble whatsoever. They should get a divorce. Honestly, it's very clear they don't love each other. She's not capable of loving him. And how can he love just the steaming heap of nastiness? Like no one's in love with a steaming heap of negativity. That's all she is about everything. Like I say, it's not just him. It's not just the children. Time is first lady. My God, she hates everything as far as I can tell, except for her current schedule. That is the one exception.

28:28And the whole thing reminds me of this comment John Stossel made to me, who I love. He's hysterical. And when we were friends, but we also worked together at Fox many years. And one time I got into the elevator with him at Fox, It was just the two of us. And I said, Stossel, how's it going? And he said, terribly. I said, what's the matter? He goes, my children, they left. This is how this ends. They leave you in the end. It's like the big reveal. and Stossel is not an overly sentimental guy, but the normal person definitely feels that heart tug when your baby who is like your sweet toddler and you were just pushing in a stroller and then on the swing and teaching his ABCs and how to ride a bike and to come of age and the problems change, but they're also still interesting and kind of fun to work out together as they get a little older.

29:20Is leaving, is going to move out? Now I'm going to get myself worked up, but I don't have to think about it yet. I got another two years. But they are going to leave. They're not going to live with you anymore. It's tough on you, your spouse, your other kids. I'm sorry, but there's something wrong with somebody who talks about it in those cavalier terms. Like it's a joy and she can't wait to kick them in the ass on the way out. You know what Ob had to do today, Megan? My youngest son turns 16 tomorrow. and so right when the place opens he'll be taking his driver's test tomorrow morning so assuming that he passes today was the last day ob got to drive him to school and we woke up this morning together at like 7 a.m something like that or i woke up she was already up getting ready to shuttle him out the door and it was first thing she said to me she's like it's the last time i get to drive my little boy to school.

30:17So yeah. These things are hard. They're very hard. I was saying that to Doug. So he's, our oldest is 16. He'll be 17 in September. And he did get his driver's license. He got his permit, but he hasn't yet taken his driver's test. I don't know why. It just kind of took a while. And Doug was like, you know, Yates, you got to get in there and get your test. And I was like, why encourage him? Like as soon as he gets it, he's probably going to want to drive himself to school. He's not going to want us to drive him anymore. And Doug, since they were little, Jesse, Doug and I split the drives. Like he takes the boys three days a week and I take my daughter, the other two.

30:55And then the next week we reverse it, or I take the boys three days a week and he takes my daughter too, what have you. And for one year, we were commuting our kids from the city. It's a long story, but we wanted to get the hell out of Manhattan and those woke schools. So for one year we had to commute our kids and it was tough. Just the boys, just the boys, because they got in and the school was like, it's now or never. So for the full year, Doug and the boys used to leave our house at the crack of dawn. It was pitch black outside. And by the time they got out here to Connecticut, everyone was weary, bleary.

31:30And Doug started this tradition with the kids of pulling over before they got to the school and doing what we call a fire drill, you know, like sort of the Chinese fire drill that we used to do as kids. and they will get, they'll crank the radio, they'll get out of the car and they'll run around the car. They call it like twice counterclockwise, twice clockwise, whatever it is, with the music blasting. And then we moved up, Yard's, and the whole five of us were living here and he started to do it with Yardley. Long story short, they're still doing it. My oldest is going into junior year. And I'm like, Doug, as soon as Yates starts driving, no more fire drills and boy that put an end to the encouragement of yates to get that driver it's like take your time what's the rush you're good it's it's it's heavy you know it's coming it's one of those things it's wild you know it's coming it's everyone knows it's coming but once it actually gets there especially if you love them right so i don't know that i was ever any any kind of a decent father but i love them and i love them to death it's it's heavy it's it's But it's wonderful.

32:35It's wonderful, but it's heavy. Like you said, bittersweet is the best way to describe it. Yeah. Well, my one comfort is, like, we have dear friends. You know, we spend that summer at the Jersey Shore, and there in particular, we have friends who have kids who are older, who are in their mid-20s now. And their kids are so close to them still. They come back all the time when they can on the summers or on the weekends. and now they have different friends and now they have more serious boyfriends or girlfriends and they're going through a different phase of life, but they're still so tight and so loving.

33:10And I think if you do it right, if you raise a loving family where they feel connected to you and vice versa, it's not goodbye. It's a change, but it's definitely not goodbye. And it can be a really exciting, fun new phase where they bring all sorts of different energies and stimuli back into your home that are new and exciting. And I don't know, that'll expand your universe and make you feel happier. So fingers crossed for that kind of a future, unlike the one that Sasha and Malia Obama are facing, which is probably a locked door with chains when they get back to the family house. Let's hope not.

33:51Okay, I want to keep going. We talked about your time in Texas, the miserable summer weather. What is going on with the Paxton Tallarico race? Because the audience probably knows you definitely didn't want Cornyn and you're an actual Texan. Didn't want Cornyn. He was like, you know, establishment, old hat, et cetera. There were all sorts of reasons. Everybody keeps touting his donor network and what a great fundraiser he is. And whenever I read it, I think of you. I'm like, I think Jesse Kelly would be looking at that as not a great thing. It means he's owned. The reason he has all these donors trying to give money is because all these special interests who own him.

34:29But it made news this weekend because he said he is not going to fundraise for Ken Paxton, who is now the Republican nominee who beat him for the nominee against this lunatic James Tallarico. And I get it. I'd probably be pissed, too, if I lost to Ken Paxton. I probably wouldn't want to fundraise for him. But the alternative is basically helping Tallarico win. right because he's like i'm gonna give my money to other states where they need it but not to ken paxton who he called lazy and said he's a bad fundraiser and uh i don't know i think it's all hands on deck to stop this tallarico from winning and he is a point to two points ahead in the average of polls down there all right megan so interrupt me whenever you want obviously it's your show but i'm about to filibuster here and lay kind of all this thing out for everybody and explaining exactly what's happening and why is it happening.

35:23John Cornyn was in Senate leadership. Now, people have to understand something. There are five to ten Republican, there might be more, but that's rough, five to ten Republican senators, what they do is they keep their foot in the door so we can never fully slam the door on communism in the United States of America. They'll vote with you on this or that or that thing. But whenever there's like some Save America Act, actually, great example of it. Whenever there's a huge thing that they could do that would really stick a knife in the ribs of the communist revolution in this country, they will turn around and betray you.

36:06And here's what else is wild. These five to 10, maybe 15 senators are almost universally from blood red states. blood red states states that could elect somebody to the right of me it's utah it's the dakotas it's texas it's the carolinas it's on and on down the line blood red states send senators who turn out to be traitorous scum to washington dc now why is that well here's why it is because the red state gop primary voter has historically but we're getting better by the way has historically been the laziest and stupidest voter in the United States of America. And it's a very simple reason. When I drive through my town, Megan, I'm in rural Texas.

36:54I have all red representatives. There aren't homeless people on the streets, people getting stabbed. Life is pretty safe and normal here. Therefore, I'm not motivated to crawl across a mile of broken glass and vote in primaries. Now, I do vote in primaries, but I'm speaking for most voters. So who does vote in primaries. Generally in red states, the people who vote in primaries are older people almost universally. They watch Fox News day and night. That's not an insult on Fox News. But when they turn on Fox News every day and night, they see Lindsey Graham doing interviews. They see this rhino doing interviews.

37:30They see that rhino doing interviews. And when the primary vote comes up, they say, Herb, we have to vote for John Cornyn again. And so the red state loser GOP primary senator gets reelected and has been getting reelected for decades because of that dynamic, because the red state GOP primary voter does not vote in primary elections. And what that has done is it's created an environment where these red state GOP primary voters have felt untouchable. They raise gobs of money like Cornyn did. They spread that money around the Senate to buy themselves leadership positions. That's why Cornyn was in a leadership position, you know, minority whip stuff.

38:08They spread that money around and they have convinced themselves presidents come and go, whatever case may be. I'm a senator from Texas. Also, I'm a cowboy hat and run some TV ads about being tough on the border every six years. These morons will reelect me and then I can go back to protecting the swamp. That has been the state of affairs for decades in this country. It's why we are in such a bad pickle. GOP red state senators that bring again, Megan, you can interrupt me. I'm still going, but you can interrupt me. No, I'm interested. That brings me to John Cornyn. So what happened was John Cornyn, John Cornyn flew a little too close to the sun.

38:47If we have to do a little Greek mythology analogy here, John Cornyn, because he had just been reelected recently in the wake of the Uvalde school shooting, Mitch McConnell tapped John Cornyn to work with Democrats on gun control legislation. And Cornyn readily agreed to do it and did it and got gun control passed. Why would he do something so apparently politically suicidal? Because it was too far away from the election. These stupid Texas primary voters would never remember. They'll let it all go, except the GOP red state primary voter is changing. He is waking up. He's getting more involved.

39:26And immediately after Cornyn did this, this didn't get widely publicized. He went to a state GOP convention here where his people were handing out John Cornyn lanyards. There's a picture. You can go find it on the Internet. The lanyards filled up the trash can and Cornyn got booed off the stage. The GOP red state voter in Texas did not forget it. John Cornyn did not lose because of Trump's lack of endorsement or anything else. He lost because Ken Paxton had won multiple statewide races and John Cornyn betrayed his voters. That's the only reason John Cornyn lost. It's not more complicated than that.

39:59Now to where we are now. Why is the GOP not spending money? And they've publicly announced they're not spending money. Every time I turn on the television to watch baseball, it's 8 ,000 James Tallarico ads. I have to this day not seen one Ken Paxton ad. Not one. Not a single one on television. Why is that the case? Just to interject, they say that, hold on, I'm reading here. Tallarico has outpaced Paxton in direct advertising dollars by a factor of 200 to 1. That Tallarico has raised$30 million in the second quarter of 2026 to Paxton's$9 million. So there's a very serious funding and ad buy disparity between the two.

40:40Keep going. You'll see it. Again, every TV commercial, every TV commercial break, there will be a James Tallarico ad, not acting like the commie freak that he is, sitting with his pawpaw, talking about Jesus and groceries every single time. All right. So what is happening here? These senators who have been luxuriating in D.C. and feeling untouchable for a long time finally got touched. and if you're anybody if you're john thune kennedy tim scott curtis mcconnell i knew he's retiring but you get you get the drift if you're any one of these guys you sat up in your chair when john cornyn lost the primary and said to yourself oh no that could be me are we are we are we not allowed to screw over our voters anymore are they going to actually possibly vote us out of office and so So what you're seeing is the Senate.

41:37This is this is their fight back. It's not that the GOP Senate is OK with Ken Paxton losing. The GOP Senate wants Ken Paxton to lose the election so they can look at the GOP primary voter and say, see, don't ever try that again or this is what will happen. The Republican senators, if they could politically get away with it, would be running ads for James Tallarico and not Ken Paxton. That's how bad they want Ken Paxton to lose the race, and that's why. Oh my gosh. I mean, this guy, like Tallarico, of all people, it just seems so not aligned with the state of Texas. It will truly be a stunner if that's what happens, but you're explaining why it might right here.

42:22Again, the Real Clear Politics average of all poll shows him up 1.9, 46.4 to 44.5 over Ken Paxton. He's dropping, you know, ad after ad after ad. And John Cornyn tells it's the Texas Tribune's reporting saying he's lazy and he doesn't, Paxton is lazy and doesn't like to work hard. So is the writing on the wall? We'll see. All right, I want to keep going because there's plenty more to discuss. Kathy Hochul, who is the Democrat governor of New York, who only became governor because Andrew Cuomo turned out to be a sex pest who got run out of office and she was his number two. She's an absolute moron, has done absolutely nothing of accomplishment in her entire life.

43:07She can't string two sentences together. She's best known in New York for wearing an enormous sort of gangbanger gold necklace that read vaxxed for most of her time during the pandemic. So that tells you something about her. So she is getting just absolutely excoriated by some online for going to the Islamic Cultural Center School on East 97th Street in Manhattan wearing a hijab. She is wearing a hijab. Jessie, look at this woman. Here's a soundbite of her standing there. This was posted on Friday by End Wokeness Saten.

43:53This is ridiculous.

44:00Okay. The defenders of this will say, oh, she's being respectful of their customs. You know, that's their custom, so she's being respectful. Are they respectful of our customs? Do they come into our communities and take off their hijab because they're in America now? And we show our hair. And we don't believe that women have to hide anything whatsoever to go anywhere or be anywhere. They don't. They do their own thing. So why does Kathy Hochul or AOC, there's all this video now emerging of these so-called feminist leaders on the left. Why do they have to hide their hair so as not to offend Muslims in an Islamic center when they don't care about offending our customs and wearing their hijabs?

44:44Whatever. Most of us don't really give a shit. We don't pay attention to what they're doing with their hair or not doing with their hair. But I'd be caught dead before I'd put a hijab on inside an Islamic center or anywhere else for that matter, Jesse. Well, this is what it looks like to be conquered, Megan. It's not more complicated than that. If you import enough Islam into your country, the women will wear hijabs. You will have halal food everywhere. You will hear the Muslim call to prayer in the parking lot several times a day. This is what it looks like to be conquered. And we are being conquered.

45:20And every time you import more Islam into your country, you guarantee these things. These things are absolutely inevitable. I actually laugh when I see people on the right say things like we should ban Sharia law. We should ban Sharia law. That's the most pointless thing I've ever heard in my entire life. You can pass all the laws you want. If you import enough Muslims, you will have Sharia law. If you don't have enough Muslims, you will not have Sharia law. The laws you passed mean absolutely nothing. This is what is coming for the West. It's already come for places like the UK and others. If it continues to be really nice and tried to do everything possible to avoid being called bigot and racist, if the goal of the West is to avoid accusations of bigotry, then get used to it.

46:05It's not going to be Kathy Hochul. It'll be every woman who resides inside the borders of the United States of America. That is what happens. It is a religion of conquest everywhere it goes without a single exception. There's not one exception. The exact same thing happens and the exact same thing will happen here. This is this is what it looks like to slowly be conquered. She is actually out there talking about how, OK, she's such a feminist. And then listen to what she said here about her son. This is from March of 2023. I tell other young moms, I said, your kids will be better. My kids are more engaged.

46:45I raised my son as a feminist. He knows that women have every right that a man ever has. And he'll make sure that his daughter has those rights. So she's all for what? Female empowerment, I guess. Whatever her definition of feminism is. In today's standards, it really just means you're pro-abortion. And she wants her son to remember that too. But she can't expose her hair because it's considered inappropriate in an Islamic center, even though she is the sitting governor of New York. She's a sitting governor, Jesse. How dare she? Honestly, I just feel like you go in there, you represent the people of New York, a state in which I spent 50 years of my life, and you do it like a strong American woman and you obey American customs, which do not require women to cover, well, virtually anything by today's standards, but certainly not our hair.

47:40Well, people get confused about the red-green alliance because it doesn't make sense, right? I'm a feminist, but I'll wear a hijab. What is going on here? Why are the communists aligning with the Islamists? Why is this happening all over the globe? And all you really have to do is look at the history of alliances, whatever period of time in history, whatever location in history. It could be the Indian tribes. It could be major nations. It doesn't matter what is the main driver of alliances throughout history. It is not common values or anything like that. It is a common enemy. what drives people to work together they found someone they both hate and they work together in order to take that person down that is the main driver of alliances throughout history don't be confused about the red green alliance but it doesn't make sense gay people are killed in these countries but now we are working it makes perfect sense if you set aside these childish notions and just accept that this is the red green alliance and their goal is to burn down Christian-based Western civilization.

48:43The communists want to do it. The Islamists want to do it. You can argue about which one of those two groups is going to actually achieve power in the end, but neither of those two groups are stressing about that particular thing at the moment because they understand they have an enemy to take down, and that enemy is you and me. Yeah. Last but not least, Sonny Hostin's son Gabriel has now effectively gotten the trespassing case against him dismissed. He completed a diversion program, and now the case is being resolved, reports TMZ. It was a trespassing case. It got downgraded and dismissed because he completed this program, which would have been offered, I think, to most people, the diversion program.

49:31So he completed it, but not without his mother, to the end, injecting herself in this, Jesse, writing a letter on his behalf as a former federal prosecutor and reminding everybody that her son is a Harvard graduate. The same thing she said when she rushed to his defense on site. This person constantly bitching about white privilege and how she doesn't have it. Her son went to Harvard. He's got Harvard privilege. And she wanted the courts and everybody else involved in his arrest to know it to the end. Even when she was under public scrutiny for trying to rescue her her, you know, so-called young son.

50:07He's mid 20s. She kept doing it. And behind the scenes really wanted everybody to know he's from Harvard, i.e. a good person. Isn't the most damaging part of that whole thing, Megan, that that that moron is a former federal prosecutor? Is that not the most disheartening thing to think when you look at our whole judicial system of all the prosecutors and judges and all the different parts of it throughout the country? and you like to imagine, at least imagine that, well, okay, maybe they disagree with me politically, but these are lofty, intelligent people who want to do the right thing. And then you realize Sonny Hauston at one point in time held that job and you think to yourself, my word, are we screwed?

50:51It's so true. I just feel like I don't want to hear another word from her ever again on privilege, Not one fucking word. OK, because most people's son did not go to Harvard. Most people were not born to a former federal prosecutor and they don't have their mommy rushing in at every turn. Every minor interaction with the law, which, you know, this guy wants us to believe this was. Why couldn't he handle it himself? Why couldn't he get a lawyer? Why couldn't he have just paid the trespassing fine? No, because Harvard, a Harvard graduate can't have any marks on his record, you see, because he's a future leader.

51:26He's a future king, unlike your son or mine. That's how Sonny Hosten sees the world. But she'll still bitch about him. Great to see you, Jesse Kelly. You too, Megan. Up next. We're on Verdict Watch. Our sponsor, the Electronic Payments Coalition, says Washington politicians are always getting in your wallet and that now they're messing with your credit card. They say your credit card and the security it offers are under attack and that Senators Dick Durbin and Roger Marshall want to change the nation's payment system to benefit corporate megastores like Walmart and Target at the expense of everyday Americans.

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53:30Jurors are now deliberating the fate of Lindsay Clancy, the 36-year-old Massachusetts woman on trial for killing her three young children. She did kill them. The question is whether she should be held legally responsible. She admits that she took the lives of her own children, but she says she wasn't responsible due to postpartum psychosis. So she's pleaded not guilty by reason of mental defect or disease. I want to bring in two guests to break down the latest as we await any word from this jury. And there was word on Friday and there's speculation today. It's actually kind of, there's an interesting little twist.

54:06We'll get to it. Phil Holloway is here. He is the co-host of the MK True Crime Show, which you can find at mktruecrime.com. Just go to any place you get your podcast and type in MK True Crime and the show will come up or YouTube. And Lauren Conlon, she's a reporter for Los Angeles Magazine. She's been closely following the case and reporting from the courtroom. Great to have you both. So on Friday, there was a question, Lauren, from the jury. It's the only question we've received so far. Tell us what they wanted to hear. Sure. The jury asked to see the knife that Lindsay Clancy reportedly used on herself for her suicide attempt.

54:43And they also asked to see two bags of medication. This medication came from the Clancy's kitchen and also from Patrick and Lindsay's bedroom in the drawer. And reportedly, the medication that came from the drawer was never actually collected by the police. This was given to the police after the fact by the defense attorney, Kevin Reddington and Patrick Clancy. So there was some some miscommunication, I feel like, in the hallway in the courtroom because the judge didn't tell us this in open court. We kind of had to get the information after. And the judge did allow the jury to see this. There were some rumors that he didn't allow it, but he absolutely allowed it.

55:24And, you know, it could mean a number of things. Megan, I'm not a lawyer, so I'll let you guys, that's what you think, and I'll weigh in, but. Okay. Thank you. How about, there's your cue, Phil. What do we make of it? No, look, I think it's great stuff, and Lauren's doing a great job out there. She's one of my best sources of information to keep up with that case. It's like I said on AM Update this morning, we're trying to speculate, Megan, what these notes or this note and any future notes might mean. It's kind of like reading tea leaves. you know we just don't know uh what the jury is thinking it might just be one juror who misremembers something and says hey i want to see that uh piece of evidence because i want to get my notes correct or it could be a group of them arguing over what something means um and so we really just don't know without more context and i do think that we'll see additional jury notes because look this trial took what a month or so or more but wait wait wait wait wait wait phil before we get to additional jury notes, I mean, we can glean something off of the fact that they wanted to see the knife with which she allegedly tried to commit suicide, right?

56:32Like they, because that's been a point of contention. They've been arguing about whether this was a real suicide attempt or not. The prosecution's basically like those alleged wounds on her neck and wrists were superficial. And, you know, she like suggesting that she didn't really try that hard, that this was somebody who tried to make it look like she wanted to commit suicide, but didn't really want to commit suicide. But my point is, we don't know if it was all the jurors or maybe just one juror wanted to see it. What I mean is we don't know the significance of the request to see that knife.

57:09It might be exactly what you just described, Megan, but that's sort of a guess. We're speculating, and it could mean something completely different. We just don't know why any particular juror wanted to see that knife. Is it because they wanted to see, was it long enough? Did they have some other question based on the testimony? But look, this thing's going on for a month, and we're going to have more questions. And once we see the other questions, we might be able to sort of put a pattern to it and see, all right, when you take all these questions and you put them together and see a pattern, maybe we can start then piecing together what the jury might be thinking.

57:48I just don't think we should put a lot of weight on one note just a few hours into the deliberations. Well, I agree. It's sort of a fool's errand to try to guess what a jury note or request means. And yet, that's our job. How many verdicts have we been sitting on waiting over the course of my 25 years where this is what we do? I would say, you know, I might feel kind of good if I were the prosecution, which made a bigger deal out of that evidence that they wanted to see it, that somebody wanted to actually see that knife and see what they could glean from it. That's that's more evidence for the prosecution side.

58:26I mean, the defense was like she jumped out of a window head first. What do you what did you think she was trying to do? So the fact that they wanted to actually see the knife might be good. Here's the prosecution talking about the suicide attempt during her closing argument, SOT25. She wanted to kill herself, but her natural instinct to live was fighting against that. So she took pills, but you heard the toxicologists. They were all at therapeutic levels or below, except the Cerequil, which was a little elevated. She cut herself, but you saw the cuts on the meaty. part of her arm horizontally.

59:04No arteries, no major blood vessels. Didn't need to be stitched the next day. The one on her neck didn't need to be stitched at all. She knew as a nurse those weren't going to kill her, but she was trying. And then going out of the window, 12, 13 feet, she landed the wrong way and ended up paralyzed on the frozen ground. But, you know, the idea that falling out of a 12-foot window is going to definitely kill you? Not necessarily. And so she wanted to. She was trying. She was trying in all these different ways. But she just couldn't get over that third prong, the capability of actually killing herself.

59:49And that goes against it being a voice. Because if she's compelled to do it, if this voice is making her do it, she would just do it. There would be no fight. There would be no struggle. There would be no resistance to dying. But there was. It's an interesting turn, Lauren, because she's really kind of, you know, the speculation online has definitely been these were not real suicide attempts by Lindsay Clancy. But the prosecutor argued it a different way, saying she did want to. But the reason she had to try three different ways, swallowing drugs, using a knife against the throat and the wrists on ineffectively and then throwing herself at the windows because there was there wasn't actually the psychotic voice telling her to do anything.

1:00:40There was only her own internal thought and an internal thought can be overcome, unlike being, quote, directed by some psychotic voice who's in control rather than you. Yes, and I think what was interesting is that the prosecution completely flipped their story from their opening statements. And I would say throughout maybe halfway through their case, they had contested that this was not a serious suicide attempt. And in my opinion, it wasn't until their own experts were testifying that Lindsay Clancy had major suicidal ideations. she did want to go through with this. And the defense also kind of used those three methods as their defense and saying she wanted to commit suicide so badly that she tried three different types of ways here.

1:01:32So, you know, listening to them describe this in the closing arguments, I truly didn't give it as much weight only because I felt like I was listening to an entirely different prosecutor, if you will. That's so interesting. Yes, because you've been paying a lot closer attention to it than I have. But I was under the impression that the prosecution had argued or telegraphed, at least, that this was not a serious suicide attempt. And the closing. Yeah, so it's true. And then the closing message changed a little, given the trial testimony. I actually think it's a clever place for the prosecutor to go.

1:02:07It is, to me, actually kind of compelling. If you're being pushed by the other voice, the same powerful voice that made you kill your children, how could it how could it lead you to an ineffective attempt to slit your own wrists or take enough pills to kill you? She's given them something to think about. So, Phil, you know, at the end, you know, the horrificness, the horror of this crime is really what will rule the day for the prosecutor or not. You know, that either the jury is just going to be so angry about what happened to the children, because there are reports that at least one juror was crying during the prosecution's closing when she talked about the actual murder, like the actual killing of the children.

1:02:51So it all comes down to that, in my view. Here is, I'm going to give a viewer a warning because this is very disturbing, but here is part of the prosecution's closing on the order in which she killed the children and the import of that, SOT26. You know it was deliberate premeditation because of the way she killed them and the way they died.

1:03:17And the order also shows a rationality. The order she killed them in. Because Cor and Dawson are older. If she had tried to strangle one in front of the other, they would have known this is bad. and they would have tried to intervene or run and hide. And she had a very limited time. She didn't have time to try to find a child who ran off and hid. So taking Dawson first and moving him to a separate room, having Cora stay with Callan and having Dawson go in another room, that's rational. That makes sense. That's ordered thinking. And we didn't show you that post that she made about Dawson being a handful and not being compliant to show she was a bad mom.

1:04:03We showed it to you because it proves she knew that he was a handful. She knew that he was less likely to be compliant, to just go along. She knew that he might struggle. And so it made sense, rationally, to remove him and separate him first and kill him first. And she brought him into that room, into the office, and closed the door, and she wrapped that band around his little neck. And she squeezed until he was unconscious. As the blood's pooling in his face and causing those blood vessels to burst, causing him pain and panic and confusion. And defense calls Dr. La Posada to say, no, it wasn't 20 or 30 seconds, it was only 5 or 10 seconds until he went unconscious.

1:04:56I'm sorry, how many seconds is it okay for them to have been in pain and panic and confusion? How about it wasn't okay for one second for any of those children to feel that? Yeah. She finally got around to what I think is the strongest part of her case, and that part of the closing argument I thought was particularly effective. It was also effective when she discussed essentially the ordered thinking, the fact that the defendant was able to sort of control herself enough to not use that knife in a way that would cause a fatal wound. And so I think all those things were important, and I think the prosecution gets credit for that.

1:05:45Now, however, I was not impressed with how they began their closing argument, because what you just heard in that shot, that's the most compelling part. It's about the kids, the children, the pain, the suffering, the torture that those children went through. That should have been the first words out of her mouth when she addressed the jury. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this case is about these children. This lady, this defendant sitting right over here, she tortured them. She did all these other things that she could have just basically hammered on that. But what did she do? She started out with an acknowledgement that the defendant was seriously mentally ill, which plays right into, of course, the defense case.

1:06:32So if I had to sort of coach this or fly speck it from the back end, I would say, look, lead with this. Lead with the good stuff. Lead with the stuff that's the most compelling and the most powerful. But don't start your closing argument with basically the defense's theme, which is she's got a serious mental illness. On balance, I give the win for the closings to the prosecution, though, for those reasons. We have a little bit of the beginning of the prosecution's closing. Here it is, Sop 23. The dispute that Lindsay Clancy was suffering from mental illness and that she tried to kill herself. There's no dispute about that.

1:07:13All of the evidence that you've heard, even the experts that the Commonwealth put before you, say that she was suffering from mental illness and she tried to kill herself. That's not the issue in this trial. The issue is whether at the time she killed Cora, Dawson and Callum, she knew the difference between right and wrong. and whether she could conform her behavior to the requirements of the law. This case is not about our mental health system or how it treats women or what's in the DSM-5 and what's not. That's a distraction to get you angry and passionate about an important issue, but an issue that's not on trial here.

1:07:57I mean, I'm more prosecution minded in general, but I would say I see your point, Phil. But I also feel like, you know how much mental illness there is in America? You know, I mean, we talk about it all the time. Like, look at these weird so-called trans guys who are running around threatening women in their spaces. If they're not called she and her, they're mentally ill, these people. But that doesn't mean they get a pass if they murder three children. It is the difference, what she's trying to argue, between mental insanity or illness and legal insanity. And the issue here is was she legally insane, which does require proof.

1:08:36It requires proof that she did not understand the difference between right and wrong. Yeah, she absolutely – she's got to make that argument, and she did a good job with that argument. I'm simply saying that I would not have led with that. I would have led with the children. Yeah, you would have reversed the order. Yeah, I would have led with the kids. I got it. Something emotional. Just thanks to the law of primacy and recency, the jury's going to remember the first thing they heard and the last thing. I see her strategy, though. The defense is she was insane. She was driven insane by postpartum psychosis and a medical community that sucked, that just kept piling medication on her and not helping her at every step of the way.

1:09:18Lauren, when she the defense did a good job of documenting the number of times she outreached for some sort of help with her growing mental and sleep, et cetera, problems. Absolutely. And Kevin Reddington did a fantastic job of that throughout the course of this five week trial. I mean, it's been grueling. And me personally, I go back and forth every day. I go home and I talk to my mom about it. And we discuss it because we both believe that mental illness can cause one to do some unspeakable things. But then the minute that you hear about what those kids went through, for me, it all just goes out the window.

1:10:03And I forget all about it. And I do feel like that is one reason why the jury is kind of taking so long in a case where it's not a whodunit. It's, again, is she criminally responsible? And, you know, one thing I'll say here in terms of Kevin Reddington, where I said he did a fantastic job over the course of these five weeks, I felt like in the closing arguments, you know, it could have been just simpler for me. You hear about Lindsay Clancy as a mother, everything she did, how everyone said she was incredible. All she wanted in life was to be a mother and she wanted three kids. It's kind of just like I would have said, would she have done this if she wasn't sick?

1:10:45Would she have gone through with this if she wasn't suffering from a mental illness? The answer is no. The psychosis part, I can't speak to that. That is going to be a battle of the experts. And I do believe, again, the only person that truly knows if they were experiencing psychosis or a form of psychosis was Lindsay Plancy. But back to the distractions, though, of the postpartum discussions and these men on the stand, you know, the three Commonwealth experts who are men who do refer to the DSM where there's one paragraph about postpartum. Megan, I don't know about you, and maybe this was a distraction, but I'm sitting there rolling my eyes thinking, you guys should check with my husband.

1:11:27Postpartum is not four weeks. I suffered for about a year. He suffered for about a year with my first child. I mean, you know, so there was times that you do get a little angry thinking like, who are these guys to say that, you know, she wasn't suffering? Again, it's gray. It's all a gray area. And Lauren, the jury now, we don't know who's who exactly, right? We don't know which of the entire panel of 18, I think it was 18, right, got chosen down into the last nine. But we do know the makeup, right? We know male versus female now. Yes. So the deliberating jury is three men and nine women. And in my opinion, women are harder, though, on other women, I think.

1:12:10I mean, we saw Harvey Weinstein, all the female jurors voted to acquit him. So I just think females are tougher on other females. Yeah. Women can be very unsparing with their own kind. And on an issue like this, every woman either has their own child or knows somebody who has a child and a girlfriend and has thoughts about it. You know, definitely has their own strong thoughts about it. So it's going to be really interesting. It is kind of taking a while. Well, Phil, they went out. The deliberations began on Thursday at 1227. They deliberated, so it was three and a half hours. Then on Friday, they restarted at 9.15 a.m.

1:12:51They ended just before 4 p.m., so that was a full day for them. Now they're back at it. It's 1.20 East Coast time, and they're on the East Coast. They probably just had lunch brought in to them, which is typical for jurors. And what we heard reports of today were that at least two jurors, Phil, were seen wearing pink. Now, that could mean absolutely nothing. Pink is a color that is in some people's clothing. And they put it on and they wear it out around the world. And a lot of our listeners are wearing it right now. However, pink has taken on significance in this case because it's the color worn by Lindsay Clancy supporters outside the courthouse and inside the courtroom day after day after day.

1:13:37And it is, I mean, and these jurors haven't been sequestered, Phil. No. So you tell me whether at least two jurors are trying to send a message about where they stand. I suppose anything's possible, but I'm hesitant to put a whole lot of weight to that without knowing, you know, for sure. But because as you point out, that's a common color that's in a lot of people's wardrobes. But I will say this, The fact that there are nine women on that jury tells me that at least one, if not a handful or more of them, can at least relate to the defense position about mental illness and postpartum for all the reasons that you and Lauren were just talking about.

1:14:21But not only that, you know, my wife and all the other women that I encounter in my local community who want to ask me about this trial, every single one of them identifies with the issue of postpartum and the fact that mental health providers are not very good at dealing with it sort of as a general rule. So whether or not they convict her, I don't know. But I do know that there's going to be at least some of them on that jury that will identify with her, will relate to her for the problems that she had with postpartum. And if it is enough, then she could be looking at at least a hung jury, if not a not guilty by reason of insanity.

1:15:06Let me tell you why. because in the state of Massachusetts, the burden is on the prosecutor to disprove the defense of not guilty by reason of insanity. Once these issues have come up in the case, they've got to go back and disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt. So she actually gets sort of a shove out of the starting gate because of the way that the law is written there in Massachusetts. Yeah, I know that it is wacky how you have to disprove it as opposed to once the defense raises it. That's something for them to prove. But the prosecution has all the burden of proof here entirely. What do you make of this business, Lauren, of the jurors that the report is from someone inside the courthouse that there is a woman wearing pink jean shorts today and a juror, another juror who is wearing a pink sweater.

1:16:04Um, and on top of that, I mean, you've been watching the jury in general when they come in for the question, when they come in, they have to show up in the court room in the morning before they then retire to deliberate. But can anything be gleaned? What have you seen? Well, this morning I, I was told by another reporter because I did not notice the pink from where I was sitting, but yes, one female juror in her, her fifties, I want to guess was wearing a pink sweater, light pink sweater. And then another juror in maybe mid-40s female was wearing pink capri pants. I think it really could be anything.

1:16:39I thought all the jurors looked very nice today. There was a man that I noticed who doesn't typically get dressed up. He did have a collared shirt on. It was tucked in. Another juror was wearing a tie, but he has worn a tie before. But I mean, again, I thought they looked nice. And that always gives me a little bit of hope that maybe a verdict is coming. And I felt like there was urgency in the hallway after we walked out of the gallery. But that quickly dissipated. I mean, you know, Kevin Reddington kind of walked out with his private investigator. He's pacing. No one seemed to bother him for a while until he just started kind of engaging with the media and the public one by one before taking a walk.

1:17:20But it's been very tough this morning. And my prediction is that they're going to send a note by the afternoon, possibly. I don't know if it's going to be a question. I was kind of thinking that they were going to say that they all couldn't agree just because it's been, again, over 10 hours. And it's not a question of if she did it. So I do believe that, again, this jury, although some of the females are showing emotion. There was no one that burst into tears, by the way, during the closing. There was a woman that wiped her eyes. She was teary. There was another woman who looked down, appeared to just be very, very sad.

1:17:54But there was no audible crying. But they were very emotional, very emotional. I will say that. So you, Lauren, when you were saying he would have preferred that Kevin Reddington just got up there and kept it very simple. Like, obviously, she would not have harmed her children if she hadn't been mentally ill, if she had been well served by the medical community. We can all agree to that. But he he did get criticized online for being too meandering. How would you sum up what the criticisms were of what he did instead of what you're saying? I mean, he he it wasn't cohesive, I guess. And I felt like throughout the course of of the defense's line of questioning and obviously the trial, it was very, very much centered around mental health.

1:18:40And I thought that he brought up the lack of police investigation quite frequently during the closings and where that is very important to Massachusetts residents. I mean, I think they do have a distrust for the police at this point, you know, between some of the last couple of high profile cases. I guess Karen Reed, Sandra Birchmore and another local reporter pointed this out to me, actually, because I was like, why all of a sudden is he spending so much time on police again when it hasn't really been brought up for a while? but I just felt like one of the defense attorneys I really enjoy listening to his closings is Mark Magnifolo.

1:19:17He is a very - Yeah, we know him. Yeah, he's very common sense and he just breaks it down for someone like me who was a lay person. I'm a reporter. You know, for Diddy, he's like, thank God the feds got all that baby oil off the street. Oh my gosh, I'm so happy. Like it made everybody laugh and it pointed out how ridiculous a lot of it was. So, you know, if I was Reddington, And I just would have maybe talked to the jurors, not in all of that, that, you know, the medical terms and not in the investigative terms, just just simply, you know, everything we know about Lindsay. Would she have done this if she wasn't sick?

1:19:50And that's it. You know, when I talked to Agnifilo about the NXIVM case, that cult that turned out to be like a sex cult up in my hometown of Albany, New York, he he told me, you know, on air, but on a taped piece I did at the time. because the women were being branded with his initials by their subset of the Keith Raniere sex cult, which is part of this NXIVM cult. And I asked him, you know, this is your client. He's branding women with his initials. What the hell? Right. And he said, no, no, no. He said, this is New York. We don't do cults. We don't do brands. Like if they got the brands, they did it because they were empowered.

1:20:29Like that's what women in New York do. They don't, you know, it was to your point. It didn't work in the end, but it was a very clear line that you could take away like, okay, I get it. I understand what the defense is. Instead, we got examples like this, Bill. I'll play a little bit of him. Sat 18, Kevin Reddington. Whether or not Lindsay is guilty. You're under reasonable doubt, as his honor instructed you and will instruct you, what that means. That standard of proof that we as citizens in this country are so blessed to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt before the government charges any citizen with a crime.

1:21:21I don't care how many cops you have in here, how many DAs are sitting here, how many people are sitting in the front row and they're all going to sit there and be proud of this prosecution. I told you in the opening statement that this is a prosecution that has ripped the soul out of this girl. This is what they had. This is their family.

1:21:53How does... Now it's going to be a picture of her in her hospital bed.

1:22:00Turn into this. How? Because of the damn medicine and the lousy medical care that she got. Yeah. Okay, Bill, I got to say that the prosecution has ripped the soul out of, quote, this girl. it um yeah it was a lot of things but it wasn't the prosecution that made her strangle her through three children to death no and uh you know you must have read my uh ex posts or or because i was one of the people that said look you know this this was a meandering uh closing argument this was sort of a um it's like he was just phoning it in like he was really tired and he just wanted to get it over with but it didn't seem to have any organization to it um you know So I think it was a bad idea to use those photographs that we just showed in that site.

1:22:57And I also think it was a terrible idea to say it's the prosecution that ripped the soul out of Lindsey Clancy. Because what that sends me to thinking about, and I know the jurors are probably the same way, that sent me thinking about the kids who literally had their souls ripped away from them. And so that's what it turned me to. I think it was a little weak. I think there's a lot more that could have been done. He could have basically said, look, the judge has instructed you or will instruct you this, and give the exact instruction and say, this is how you apply the testimony that you've heard from the experts to the judge's instruction, and this is why you have no other choice but to find her not guilty by reason of insanity.

1:23:41And by the way, the judge's instructions, ladies and gentlemen, also tell you that when you have a reasonable doubt, it is your duty to acquit. So you are following the law just as much as anybody else would. If you follow the judge's instructions and you shall find her not guilty, you're following the law. And he could have basically made that point a little bit stronger and more clearly. I think it lacked direction. I think it lacked organization. I really just didn't know where he was going from one minute to the next. But hearing him say that the prosecution took the soul out of Lindsey Clancy, I thought just I thought that was a misstep, a big one.

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1:28:05I do want to play what he said on the actual killings and the exercise bans. Again, for the audience, just know that it's, when I think exercise bans, I think about those stretchy, long, rectangular bands that are used after you have physical therapy or something like that. But these were cords that look more like a bungee cord, almost like a tight cord or rope. To me, it matters. It makes a difference. I don't know why, but it just changed the visual for me. So here's Kevin Reddington addressing the exercise bands in SOT 22B.

1:28:45Remember the argument with the bands. She took the bands out of the bag, put the gloves on, talks to Dr. Lapisata on the Zoom, slams the bands down out of the paper bag, does the movement of the bands and yells at Lapisata and says, wrapped. They were just wrapped. They weren't knotted. Because you gotta get Lindsay tightening the band, right? You gotta hold it. You gotta hold it for a minute. You gotta hold it for two minutes. Three minutes. Four minutes. That's why she needed the bands not knotted. What did Patrick Clancy testify to? You heard his testimony. He indicated clearly, unequivocally, that they were knotted around the necks of those children.

1:29:50To the point where he had to struggle. He struggled to get it off of Dawson's over his head. And a police officer saw through the window. This is horrific stuff. But it's objective. and it shows the manipulation. This government, this prosecution is a mess. Oh, I mean, what a mess. Megan, can I just say something? I know, because I know Laura has something to say on this too. But as the defense lawyer, that's not the visual that I would want to be painting very clearly for the jury when I'm supposed to be making my closing argument, making them focus on my experts who said she could not conform her actions to the law because of her mental illness.

1:30:43I would not have been recreating the crime right there in front of them. Yeah. No, in the most horrific way where even the stronger husband couldn't get the bans undone, Lauren. I just think that he was also, again, trying to allude to the fact that the police did not do a thorough enough investigation. And they just, quote, took Patrick Clancy's word for everything. I think he was trying to get at that. Although he didn't, I know, although he didn't say that. This is not a whodunit. Exactly. And again, that's why I'm thinking to myself, you know, the jury is hopefully not seeing these TikTok videos.

1:31:21Patrick did it. Patrick Clancy did it, you know? So I'm wondering. You think he was offering some nuggets in case one of those people is on the jury. Well, I couldn't figure it out except for the fact that he was trying to allude that the police didn't do their jobs. And if they did, they would have known conclusively if the bans were not. They would have taken photos. They would have ran inside and told Patrick Clancy to stop because they could allegedly hear him on the 911 call or hear him from outside. So I felt that was a little bit confusing. And I'm sitting there again saying, well, the jury is hopefully not seeing what's going on on social media.

1:31:57So how are they going to put this together? Oh, that is very interesting. That's clever. And you're probably right there because Phil, why wouldn't he? What all you need is one, just one juror who's persuaded by the online theories. And it's like it was if that's what he was up to, it was a clever way of nodding to all that nonsense without drawing an objection or being too explicit in front of the prosecution or the court. Well, if he was thinking along those terms, and if that's what he was up to, maybe it would be a little creative. But I don't think that's what he was doing because the whole thing seemed to be just off-the-cuff stream of consciousness.

1:32:39I don't think he planned this whole thing out because if he did, he would not have been standing there in front of the jury, essentially recreating the deaths of these kids so that they can visualize it. He only had an hour, guys. He had one hour that the judge gave him. So how many minutes do you spend, if you're the defense lawyer, recreating the killings for the jury? You could spend that time talking about your client's mental illness, mental health, explaining to them why your witnesses made the most sense and why the jury has to follow the judge's instructions and why, because they have a reasonable doubt, they shall find her not guilty.

1:33:22That's what he should have been focused on. Yeah, I mean, he's definitely, he's got a story to tell. And he told it in his cross-examinations, Lauren. It's like this was a good mother by all accounts, never an abusive mother. She was loving. She was attentive. She was a productive citizen. She had her third baby. Things started to go south. Her sleep went south. And her problems started to mount psychologically. She didn't ignore it. She reached out for help. You had the terrible Dr. Tafts who only saw her via Zoom. That's my opinion. This doctor wasn't good and was fresh out of residency, didn't know her ass from her elbow, which is basically what he was arguing, and didn't take the time to actually figure out what was happening with Lindsay Clancy.

1:34:03When Lindsay would go back to this doctor or another saying, I have mounting complaints. It's not working for me. I feel dead inside. They didn't help her. She reached out to her mother. She said, I need help. I'm not well. She reached out to her husband. She told them both, I have thoughts of harming myself and I have thoughts of harming the children. She told them she wasn't trying to keep it a secret. She was jumping up and down. This is how I would argue it. Asking for everyone from family, friends to medical professionals, please help me. I'm worried. And no one around her thought she couldn't be alone with the children.

1:34:36They knew this loving person. Even she didn't think she couldn't be alone with the children. She wasn't shy about saying things that were damaging to her, made her look terrible until until she recognized she couldn't because, you know, that terrible day would come. And, you know, he described it as one of her best days ever. There's not evidence on the day she killed them that this is how I would argue it, that she saw it coming or that anybody could have seen it coming. She was there coloring with the child. She went to a wellness visit for Cora. She was looking to help Cora with, you know, not being able to go to the bathroom.

1:35:11Like this is not somebody who seemed like she's planning the child's death. This is what you could do this in 20 minutes up and down. It's the medical system. It's not her. This is not somebody who we should be treating like a serial killer, throwing her in jail and locking her up forever. Now, I could argue it even more powerfully on the other side, but that's how I would have done it had I been Kevin Reddington, Lauren. And I think something clear like that would be very easy for jurors to latch on to because we can all see ourselves maybe not doing this, but like having mental health struggles and having a medical system that sucks.

1:35:45Absolutely. I think you just nailed it. And we heard the term malingering a lot. And this is from the prosecution. You know, she was malingering. She was trying to get all these different types of medications, you know, on the fly, when actually the defense's argument was, in fact, the opposite, that at times she would minimize her symptoms because she thought people could hear her thoughts and that if they heard her thoughts, CPS would come and take her kids away. And then in turn, you have the prosecution who took that argument, slipped it upside down and said, actually, the fact that she's thinking this means she's thinking rationally and clearly.

1:36:21And something else I would have said if I were Reddington is the fact that every single Commonwealth witness, or I should say two out of three besides Dr. Avra Mack, they did diagnose Lindsay Clancy with bipolar 2. In Lindsay Clancy's civil suit, she alleges that her providers did not acknowledge or did not diagnose her with this or acknowledge that she could possibly be bipolar Instead, they were just prescribing these SSRIs. And one of the Commonwealth experts even said during his testimony, I would be careful prescribing someone who's bipolar an SSRI because it can cause hallucinations. Not in every case, of course, but at times.

1:37:01And I just, I didn't see that stressed enough. You know, I just felt like there were certain arguments you could use that weren't really used. But I also find it, and I think this term is gonna come, I don't wanna come across insensitive at all because this is a devastating trial. But I found elements of it very interesting because of the way each side was able to flip it, flip each side's argument, I guess, which is obviously their job. But in this case specifically, I was like, wow, I didn't think of it like that. Okay, I didn't think of it like that. This gives me a lot to weigh. And he, well, he didn't have, and the truth is it is not a whodunit.

1:37:40And even Kevin Reddington is admitting that it wasn't Patrick Clancy, it was Lindsay Clancy. But he did have a villain. He could and did try to point to, though not as effectively as possible, which is the medical system, that she was failed at every turn by medical doctors who were there to help her. And I will say, especially when you've got the potential of nine female jurors, look, I'm not a soapbox feminist. I'm not a feminist at all. And my audience knows that. But I don't know a woman who will say, I've had amazing medical care from a system that is built around women's issues. No, it's not true.

1:38:18Every woman I know feels like the system is built to take care of men and women are add-ons and children are add-ons too, by the way, they're treated as tiny little adults by too many. And there's been real frustration, especially of, you know, women around childbearing and all of that if they don't get a female doctor, but around menopause as well, that there's not enough thought by the whole community about what this does to women. And like the test, women are not just men with vaginas. They have a whole different complex system. So anyway, so I think that's something you could have sold, could have sold to a jury that wound up having nine minutes, nine women on it.

1:39:00Phil, I got to ask you about the manslaughter charge, which was allowed. The judge is allowing, did allow and has now charged the jury on not just first degree murder, but second degree murder and manslaughter. So if she, in order to get first degree, you have to prove premeditation and malice. You've got to prove for second degree, deliberate, deliberate murder, but doesn't have to have been planned. and on manslaughter, you have to prove that it's an unlawful killing, but you don't have to prove that she had the intent to cause harm. So getting manslaughter on there seems like a great thing for the defense.

1:39:46And you can argue this both ways, right? Because like, if you've got a very strong first degree murder charge as the prosecution, that's the only charge you want and you don't want manslaughter offered as an alternative. But the prosecution's alternative here is not really necessarily second degree or manslaughter. It's, does she go to the mental facility versus the jail? So what do you make of the addition? Well, if she's convicted of manslaughter, then presumably she's going to go to prison for as long as the judge can send her there because she got three deaths by manslaughter. I don't think, I just don't see how manslaughter really fits the facts of this case.

1:40:23I don't see anything like, you know, sudden provocation. And to me, it was a bit of a head-scratcher why it came in. And honestly, if I'm the defense, I really don't want it to come in because I want the jury to think about the judge's instruction on not guilty by reason. The judge told them that if they go with NGRI, she's not getting out. She's going to stay in custody, essentially, of a mental health facility. She's going to be locked up in essentially an insane asylum, right? At least until she can be safely released back into the public at some point indefinitely out into the future. She could be locked up in a mental hospital for much longer than she could serve in a prison.

1:41:09So I would have told the jury to focus on that. The judge told you that you're not letting her go free, okay, if you find her not guilty by a reason of insanity. You're sending her to a treatment facility for an indefinite period of time, perhaps the rest of her life. Yeah, but he can't really. Like, he doesn't know how long she'd be going to a mental facility. No, but he told the jury that that's where she's been. She could be there for a year. Yeah. I know. I'm just saying, like, she could be right out. And, you know, Jennifer Coffindaffer, she's on X. She's great. She's former FBI. She did this amazing post, and we'll get into it later when the verdict comes down.

1:41:45But she said in this post, don't forget. Hold on a second. I can't read my own writing here. She said, do not forget the case of Constant Fisher. Have you guys heard about this? This is so disturbing. Constant Fisher on March 8th, 1954 was a 24-year-old housewife who drowned her first three children ages 6, 4, and 11. So basically the same as these three kids in a bathtub out in Fairfield, Maine. Her husband returned home from work and found this hideous situation. And this woman, Constance Fisher, had actually also then tried to kill herself. She was found not guilty. She argued that she was a paranoid schizophrenic at trial.

1:42:31And she was actually sent to a medical facility. Within a year of her internment, she started to show signs of improvement. Five years after that, she was released. She went back to her husband, Carl. They started a new family. In 1960, she gave birth to her fourth baby, Kathleen, followed in 62 by Michael, 1965 by Natalie. So she had three more kids with Carl. After the baby's birth, the youngest, she started to unravel, immobilized by blue moods and worries, began to hear voices. And on June 30th, 1966, she drowned those three children. she was deemed unfit to stand like this is the worry Lauren this is what terrifies people about the mental facility possibility I don't even know what to say to that that's one of the worst things I've ever heard I mean I that's it's unspeakable and again I don't know what the right answer here is Megan I I mean manslaughter if she's convicted of manslaughter I think you said she could be out sooner than if she is, you know, is found not guilty by reason of insanity, where she's, you know, committed to an institution.

1:43:44So I don't know what they are thinking at this point. It could be anything. But it's the reason that a case like that is the reason this judge can't reassure the jury of too much if they find her not guilty by reason of insanity. God forbid we wind up with another Constance Fisher. Thank you both so much. We're going to stay on this. I'm sure we'll see you later if we get a verdict. All the best. And tomorrow we'll have a Kelly's Court on this and some other interesting legal cases percolating, including Megan and Harry. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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