Nancy Guthrie Nest Camera Questions, Savannah Stalker Possibilities, and Bitcoin Rumblings, with FBI and Security Experts | Ep. 1250

27:49But they would not mess with any sort of thing around this, I'm sure. So it's got to be the FBI, does it not? Well, I agree. There's a good chance it's the FBI. And my understanding is with a Bitcoin account or Bitcoin wallet, you don't always get alerts unless you have a service that provides alerts and you have, in fact, signed up for those alerts. There would really be no way to tell that unless you put money in, fingers crossed, let's hope that whoever this person is does exactly what you said, and I'm just going to log in and see if it's$6 million or$300. bucks, you know? So I think it is a way to, you know, what we've seen here over and over in many different ways in all, on down all different kinds of lanes is attempts to open the lines of communication between the family and law enforcement as one unit and the perpetrators of both of these crimes.

28:53Well, here's the other thing. What if it's not$300? What if KGUN is wrong? And what if this$6 million transfer in Bitcoin that's been documented, and we don't know whether this was deposited into the Bitcoin account, what if they did pay? What if they paid the ransom after the deadline, given how hot this case got yesterday, the prospect of, oh my God, now we see there is a man for sure. He's out there. He's panicked. We're going to give him his money. Because we talked when we hung up yesterday and we said goodbye to each other. Now that this guy's face is everywhere, albeit behind a mask, what's he going to do?

29:37Is he going to panic? Is Nancy Guthrie, if she's still alive, in greater danger right now? And I just wonder whether if I'm the Guthrie family, at that point, I say, I'll pay it. Put it in the account. I don't care. It's a small price to me, especially with all these rich friends, and Savannah's rich too. I'm going to pay it, and I don't care whether it's a fraudster. It's an insurance policy. I mean, how does that grab you, Maureen? I agree. And when you think of how we felt yesterday, all of us collectively, and I mean, I'm sure the family, law enforcement for sure, all of us watching those videos live coming on and you're saying, hey, there's another one, there's another one.

30:16What was happening? Our adrenaline levels were just rushing. Our veins were surging with adrenaline. And so were those in law enforcement. Now they've got a guy who they're looking at, whose phone pinged in the area at one point or another. And so the Guthries were feeling the exact same thing. They were all feeling this rush of something's got to be done. I mean, your brain screams that in your head. So I could easily see a scenario where they would, in fact, pay that money just because they got caught up in the emotion that so many of us were trying to just slow it down, simmer down, but you don't have that luxury when it's your loved one.

31:00And I can also see why they wouldn't want it publicized if they did pay, because whenever you pay the ransom, you're basically inviting more kidnappings. I mean, there would be pushback from many to pay it because in a way you endanger others who are in the public eye and their family. It's not your fault, but paying the ransom does have the unfortunate side effect of endangering others because it rewards terrible behavior, terrible criminal behavior. Mary Ellen, you're an expert in trying to figure out the profiles of these people who do this. And I wonder now, having heard, we don't know whether the ransom notes, for short form, that's what we're calling them, are in fact from the abductor.

31:46We do know there's an abductor beyond doubt now. I mean, we have his picture. But having heard what's in the ransom notes, which Harvey Levin has been repeatedly describing as from someone who is intelligent, that they are well-written, that there are no grammatical errors. And then you see this guy yesterday who like saunters up to the nest cam, doesn't seem to have a clear plan, kind of messes with it a little with his gloved hand. That doesn't work. It doesn't come off. Like he hasn't thought about it prior to getting there, then tries to cover it up with vegetation. I don't, are these two things consistent in your mind?

32:25And have you been thinking at all about a profile for this guy who took her? So that's a great question. I think it's possible it could be the same person. The fact that he walked up there and what was really striking to me, because it's hard to know, is this a really good writer? Is this someone who's really articulate when he puts pen to paper? But the comfort level that he seemed to show, at least in my opinion, he was very casual. He didn't seem to be nervous. He just seemed to walk up and to be comfortable, knowing that within moments, he was going to get into the home and commit one of the most violent crimes we know of, which is kidnapping.

33:11And you did not see if he was feeling stress, if he was feeling anxiety, it didn't come through in his behavior. And I thought that was very interesting. That could be part of his personality makeup. It could also be part of the fact that he's thought this through and there's a certain amount of planning and preparation that he went through. Now, whether or not we can extrapolate that and say he's also a good writer, he's not a good writer. I think what we could say is that this is someone who probably is fairly manipulative, someone that lacks the ability to empathize with the victim and what he's about to do.

33:55So would there be a willingness on his part to send those notes about the ransom that would be extremely painful to the family as another form of just extreme violence towards the family or extreme cruel treatment. I could see that happening, but I'm not at the point right now that I'd say that he's one in the same or totally different. Can we look at this and say, and I know Fitz, you do the same kind of work. can we look at this and say this guy's a sociopath because he's so calm or you can't glean such a thing from doorbell camera tape yeah and i'm hesitant to do psych evals you know uh without having sit down with the person i'm not a psychologist by the way nor would i try to but we can certainly render opinions in terms of indications of some sort of mental instability whether diagnosable or not and i mentioned yesterday you know this guy may be on the psychopath scale somewhere, psychopathy scale, in terms of his narcissism, lack of empathy, which I mentioned yesterday, and sympathy towards others.

35:05And this guy is just like, he gets focused on his particular mission at hand. And I said, since last week, this person's mission-oriented. The implementation didn't look all that pretty when we finally saw how it was undertaken. But he knew how to get there. He knew basically what to do to get in the door with a successful abduction, not a successful kidnapping so far. As far as we know, we'll talk more about the six million. So, yeah, the psych eval on someone like this, I'm always hesitant to do that. I also don't want to give down the line defense attorneys any kind of potential defense there from, you know, this profiler Fitzgerald guy who said this early on.

35:41So indicators of some sort of mental health issues, very possible, but I'm not prepared to go officially, nor would I, nor could I do any kind of a psych eval. But people are going to know this type of behavior. He's going to be an oddball of some sort, another clinical term I'll use here. And most importantly, and we'll get more into this later, but there's been a behavioral modification in the last week and a half with this guy. Free offense, post-offense, and even more post-video. And that's what I'd like to talk about at some point down the line here. What to do, Megan? Because he's in a panic now.

36:15Yes. This happened, which you didn't plan on happening. His face is everywhere. I mean, I wonder how the arrest, not the arrest, but the detainment of the wrong guy last night affects the actual perp, right? There had to be a serious moment of panic when those pictures hit. And then they've stopped what they say is the wrong guy. and swats at his house and so on. That's got to be somewhat reassuring. They don't have you yet. You've got time to get out of town, to, I don't know, stay underground. I'm not sure. Like, what would you three think the perp would do in the wake of the wrong guy? If I could just start here and I'll let the other folks talk, but I think the term person of interest was coined during the Atlanta Olympic bombings.

37:05At least I never heard that term before. It's not really a legal term. It's less than suspect or or subject somewhere in the middle there. And and that was for Richard Jewell. And he went through hell with the FBI and the media back then involving lawsuits. I was there doing some consulting at the time, but I had nothing to do with anything with Richard Jewell interviews. And then years, you know, a year or two later, we found out it was Eric Rudolph was the Olympic bomber. and we always commented among ourselves at how relieved he must have been that first few months, the actual bomber of the Olympics that killed two people, here's the security guard, the one being accused.

37:46So I'm just bringing in cases I've worked in the past. So yeah, the real kidnapper, the guy on the screen, the video, and ostensibly if there's kidnappers out there, they're saying, oh good, let them stop someone else and get him. But they're also gonna know, I would think, that he's gonna be ruled in or ruled out pretty quickly. And fortunately, this is not a Richard Jewell situation. He was ruled out within a few hours and let go. Now he's getting his interviews. So but my moment of relief, perhaps, for the guy on the video. But now he's back scared again. And his behavior is still sort of erratic based on the baseline of what people knew him from before.

38:21here's the other question i have for you guys and you can comment on that too but maureen what about the fact that there were tons of reports last night that swat was there hostage rescue was there and that officials i'm i don't know if it was fbi or local sheriffs but cops were all over yet again annie guthrie's property in the back and all over with her neighbors going door to door Annie Guthrie, not Nancy Guthrie's, Annie Guthrie's, where she had her dinner that night, but from whose house we are told by Annie and Tomas, she was returned, that she did not stay overnight there, that they brought her back home, that Tomas, according to the sheriff, brought her back home at 948, where the garage door went up, 950, it went down.

39:07So you tell me why law enforcement was flooding the field around Annie Guthrie's home last night. I've said it before. I've done a lot of rollback warrants on locations. I have never, ever even heard of anyone going back four or five times. I believe this is the fifth time last night. It's got to do with new information coming in. And the good sign, the good part of this, of them going back there, is they obviously are receiving more information that they feel is actionable. And you have to, you know, we have to look into it. it keeps pointing back in the same direction. Now, the fact that we detained the wrong person last night and the fact that they let him go quickly is a good sign.

39:53They had a number of data points. He didn't fit in. He is a driver. We have spoken from the very beginning that it was someone that was associated with the house or crossed paths with Nancy in some way, shape, or form. And this person on his phone delivered a package probably a short period of time before this event occurred. And so he's in the crosshairs. However, I think the other offenders did not bring their phones or we would know who they are by now. They didn't have their phones in their cars. So we don't know who was exactly in the area roaming around, you know, because sometimes a person may not have the phone in their pocket or on their person.

40:35but they may have it in their car. No, their phones were left at home, whoever did this, or they were secreted in another more interesting way, similar to the Brown shooter. I think with the Brown shooter and also with Koberger, people learned a lot because of all the coverage and because of all the intense scrutiny of how are things done, how can you avoid this, he was stupid because he did this. These people pay attention to this and they watch this and they feel they've learned from it. And they all think they're smarter than everyone else, and they're not. But the fact that they keep going back to this same location every single time, these are oftentimes a conspiracy, kidnappings of three people, two, three people as a general rule.

41:20And I believe we can ask Fitz and Mary if that's what they believe, but all the ones we've worked, they've been like three people involved. So this person could have just been one of the people they thought might have been involved, but it hasn't. So the refocusing has begun and it's intense. And I don't think that that was the only person they had that they were looking at. Well, if no, it's not because Cash said persons of interest and he's not a dope. He wouldn't have used the plural if he didn't mean it. But Mary Ellen, what you know, if you said to me, there's been a school shooting and I know nothing about who did it.

41:59And you asked me for the profile, the likely profile of the shooter. I mean, these days I'd say it's somebody, it's a male pretending to be a female on some sort of drugs. I mean, there's just like been such an elevation of people claiming to be trans doing the shootings. But it's either that, I'd say, or it's a white male between the ages of 19 and 26 who's a loner, who's been going to the shooting range, who's probably done some violent sketches or social media, who'd spend a lot of time gaming, potentially. I mean, we know, like it is possible even for somebody like me, who's not as skilled as you are, to come up with a profile.

42:38But what you say, who kidnaps an 84-year-old woman in the dead of night? And now you actually have the blessing of a picture of him doing part of the crime. What does that profile look like? Well, when you're talking about cases of the shootings from the time of Columbine, which was 1999, we've had really thousands of shootings. That's a lot of data where we can now comfortably say, this is the kind of person that we're looking at. These are the pre-offense behaviors. But when it comes to kidnappings, especially like this, And all three of us have worked these kinds of cases or cases involving kidnappings that were part of like a serial murder investigation.

43:26This case itself is an outlier. So it's very difficult to say, well, based on all the other cases similar to this, this is probably what we're looking at. And that's always been the challenge when you're trying to develop sort of a, you know, a profile of an individual because these just are extremely rare cases. And so I think as Jim and Maureen were both pointing out, you go back and you take a look at how the crime was constructed and how the offender accessed the victim. And Jim and I used to sit around in the conference room at Quantico, and one of the first things that we did, we would look at victimology.

44:09We didn't have those numbers of cases to go back and say, nine times out of ten, what was it? So we would have to go back and look at, for example, the victimologies. The first thing that we looked at, is this a high or low-risk victim? Is this a victim where the crime scene was very low-risk? And Nancy is a very low-risk victim. She didn't live a criminal lifestyle, and she was victimized in her own home, which was in a nice neighborhood with people around her. So we're basically starting from scratch to identify what we think will information that will tell us something about this offender. And then those videos last night were insight into the offender.

44:51So we add that to the profile as well. But again, going back and saying, this is what the data says. This is what the research says. We really don't have that because these cases fortunately don't occur that often. So we're back to really building almost an original profile. Do you guys think that they can do the FBI? Because I've heard two different experts now, former FBI both, on the issue of facial recognition, notwithstanding the fact that he has a mask on. And one guy said, we ran it on AM update. Absolutely. It can still be done, even though he's got the mask on. And then there was another guy who gave an interview to Ashley Banfield saying, I don't think so.

45:34Not with that mask on. It's going to be too difficult. Well, facial recognition does depend on angles and things like that, and the iris too. And you can see this guy's irises sort of, but they're reflected with light, so you can't really see them. Do you have any idea, any of you, whether the FBI's facial recognition technology is likely to produce out some names? They're working on it right now, I have no doubt. They're contacting different software companies who have AI capabilities, and they're doing their best with that. But long before I was on the Unabomb Task Force, 1987, the biggest break in that case, at that point, nine years old from the first bombing, was the now iconic composite sketch of the Unabomber.

46:21And that's all they had for evidence. He went dark for then six years after that, then came back in 93, started bombing again and writing to The New York Times, et cetera. So that was a big deal then was AI didn't even exist. Facial recognition software didn't exist. But that composite really went nowhere. You can ask yourself, you can look at Ted Kaczynski eventually arrested in the composite. Maybe, maybe not. Even wrote in his journal, he put wads of gum like in his cheeks and all to make himself look a little bit heftier, at least his face. And of course, the hoodie and the hair had combed down.

46:53So and I'm not suggesting the person in this video. He was brilliant, though. Ted was brilliant. This guy, this guy with the vegetation, he's not brilliant. Yeah, I'm not comparing the two on levels of brilliance. He got away with it for 17 years. This guy is up to about 10 days so far, give or take. So and this video being released was a mistake on his part, whether he had information, there was no subscription. So he was safe, although he's still trying to hide the camera with these darn flowers, whatever the hell that means. Then it eventually takes it off. He may have had inside information from somewhere that with no subscription, there will never be any video.

47:30This surprised him like it did most of us yesterday. In real time, I was getting surprised, Megan, as you were putting these these pictures out. And then we analyzed them accordingly. So this definitely altered his behavior. And all of the other folks here, you know, about the AI facial recognition software, it's it's out there. And there's probably people claiming they can do something with it. They're going to come up with maybe 10 or 12 different, we'll call them composites, of what this guy looks like under the mask. And maybe one of them will resemble that. Because I feel like you can see sort of what he looks like.

48:01Like, let's put the pictures back on the board. What I see is somebody with a very round head, like a super round head. Maybe we can get, like, more of the full shot of him. He's got large eyes. They don't look hooded to me, you know, like a bunch of age has set in or like an Asian ethnicity. They look pretty open, his eyes. He's got what appear to be pronounced eyebrows. Some people have focused on how they almost look like women's eyebrows, like overly plucked. But that could also be just his face mask and the way it's making them look. So I'm not sure about the eyebrows. He also seems to have stick out ears.

48:41If you see like the more the side shot, his ears, some people's. If I put that thing over my head, you wouldn't even see my ears. My ears are pretty flat to my head. But his aren't, so that's interesting to me. He definitely has, or at least wore fake facial hair, or it's real facial hair. But I imagine he wasn't banking on getting seen on camera. But in any event, he appears to have a mustache and either a soul patch or actual facial hair down below. and again as we said yesterday he appears to be like kind of stocky not not skinny that's for sure and either white or hispanic i think that's my guess i don't know maureen i feel like there's a fair amount there to go off there is so much information there and i agree with you 100 on the eyebrows this is a this is a guy who probably without this um um baklava or ski cap you would say he had beautiful dark eyes and just eyebrows that frame his eyes nicely.

49:44It's the stitching around and pardon me while I look at this photo I have on my phone so I can blow it up a little more. But if you look at the eye openings on this mask, it's got about a quarter inch stitch all the way around. And the reason his eyebrows look as if they're beautifully groomed is because that stitching cuts off all the top where his eyebrows would be relatively unruly. And, you know, it only shows just that perfect arc, so to speak. He does have large eyes. But the close-up photo of his face that you see where you can see the lips and the upper, the mustache or the hair on his face, those lips are very, very distinctive.

50:30if most of us were doing any type of work where we're handling something, you know, most of us like make some kind of a face or something. Look at how calm he is. He's about to break into an 84 year old woman's home and he's sauntering around like he works there. He's just as calm as he is. He is so calm. It's very telling because I swear it's like, is this like his job? Because he's approaching it like I've done this many times. Oh, oh, the Nest camera, I'll try to cover it up or maybe I won't, I don't know. I've got my backpack with, you know, I've got my gun on me. Some tool was used against, could have just been fists against his 84 year old victim inside.

51:13But man, he's like, this is, I have more energy sitting down to this desk to do the show every day than this guy appeared to have. Stand by, we have to take a quick break. We're coming back on the opposite side and I'm gonna show you our Nest camera experiment, but I wanna get your thoughts on his calm demeanor. We'll be right back. You've watched the GLP one craze explode friends, celebrities, everyone's talking about it. And yes, the results can be impressive, but if you are looking for a safe, effective, natural alternative, that's needle free consider Veracity. Veracity was founded by a certified hormonal health coach dedicated to creating holistic solutions for metabolic health.

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53:39Back with me now, three powerhouses formerly of the FBI, Jim Fitz Fitzgerald, Maureen O 'Connell, and Mary Ellen O'Toole. So we were talking before the break about facial recognition and about this guy and his demeanor of the, we're live on YouTube today, which we're not normally when we do the show, we're not live normally only on SiriusXM, but we went live on YouTube for today's show because there's so much going on. And the folks in the chat have lots of thoughts. And one of the questions that's getting debated is, was the guy that we see on this camera a decoy? And was the real action happening behind the house at the back door?

54:14And the reason he's so nonchalant is he's like, my buddy's back there. My buddy's got this. And the other possibility people are debating is whether there's any way he had already committed the crime here. And this was just about trying to get the camera down as opposed to get into the home. I mean, I suppose we can't tell that from looking at the doorbell camera, but anyone have a thought on whether the odds that this guy was just the decoy at the front? We'll start with that one. I would say if he was the decoy from the front, you're still going to and likely see a lot of anxiety in most people because he's now part of this crime.

55:00If he is the person in the back who's actually committing the crime or he's already committed the crime, and now he's just fiddling around with the cameras. He knows what he's done. You're going to see a lot of anxiety. I think the absence of a lot of anxiety and nervousness is profound here. And Jim, you touched on it earlier. I think it is profound. And when you are about to commit or be a part of an extremely violent crime, and you're just walking around casually, whether you're the decoy or whether you've come back to alter the camera and you can behave like that, that's how you behave in your non-criminal everyday life.

55:43And that speaks to his personality. And I think that's what we want people to know about him along with the facial recognition. They understand that. They have seen that. They could have lived with him or lived next door to him. That is profound. I'm thinking about the movie Free Solo and the guy who climbs the mountains and doesn't have ropes and, you know, at great risk to himself and how he just has a different adrenaline gland than the rest of us. They actually studied him. He just doesn't get the adrenaline flowing unless he does truly extreme things, which is not like normal humans. and this guy seems to have a touch of it.

56:30I mean, this does not, to me, look like somebody full of adrenaline. He knows he's about to commit this crime. He's not running around panicked on this patio, realizing he's standing on a woman's patio wearing a ski mask in the middle of the night. Like if anybody drives by, he's potentially toast. He doesn't seem perturbed about it at all. Jim, you were gonna say a minute ago what people need to look for right now. Like, this is a real person who's out there right now, and there might be clues in his behavior. Yeah, and look, we've said from early on, Megan, that, you know, we can't rule out more than one person involved in this.

57:09There's a car involved in this. We can't see this in any of the videos that have been released so far. And is there a driver in there waiting for that? Did something happen at the back door? as complicated as this case is in many, many times, even working other complicated cases. And I worked some of them with Mary Ellen back in the day. Sometimes, you know, Occam's razor is really what applies here. And we can get go overboard with all kinds of conspiratorial elements to it. Exactly. And so at least one guy here, perhaps with someone else in a car, perhaps not. And then they take her to some other location.

57:44And that's the second. Well, that will be the third crime scene. The car will be the second. So we'll see where that goes. But of course, that can't be ruled out. But yeah, I just, as we profilers know, and we've been trained this way, and we now impart this knowledge to other folks doing these type of work is, you know, what's important is pre-offense behavior, of course, the crime itself, and post-offense behavior. And each of those could have sub, you know, categories to them in terms of what they've been doing all along. And basically, even before this crime, anyone, I'm talking right now to the people out there who are listening, and you have a really big audience, Megan, so I know a lot of people are going to be watching and listening to this.

58:26Someone knows this guy, and they have possibly, for weeks, months, or years, they're related to him, they're married to him, something like that. This guy clearly was free. So look at the video, and I'll let others out there discuss height and weight and build and all that stuff. The way the guy carries the gun, I think Sigmund Freud would have a field day with how he has the gun right, you know, sort of in front of his crotch area. Yeah, that's for someone else to go. But before the crime, he's distracted. He's busy. He's sort of self-absorbed. Hey, leave me alone. I need some time here. He's on the internet a lot.

59:00And of course, he's making these purchases. The old days would be in a store. You walk in and buy stuff. Nowadays, no doubt, Amazon or some mother's service. Does he have money issues? Does he complain about money? Does he have some sort of resentment towards, and again, we're not sure this is about the money. So I'm saying possibly the money issues, or does he have some reason? Does he always watch the Today Show with Savannah? And is that some fixation he always had? Would he yell at the screen when she would say something? And we're familiar too on this panel with erotomania. That's a condition in the DSM, the diagnostic statistical manual that psychologists use and psychiatrists, you know, that's a, that's a condition of stalkers.

59:40And there's different levels of that too. They think, they think you have a love relationship when they've never met you. And I've worked a few of those cases over the years. I know all of us have here and, uh, I've actually been, I've been, been sort of targeted myself in that regard, handled it, you know, accordingly. I'm making, I'm no doubt you too. So that's pre-offense behavior. post offense is um uh uh you know his schedule has been is a miss he hasn't showed up for work uh he hasn't showed up places he should be very quiet very uh uh isolated at this point uh that is if he still has mrs guthrie's or not we don't know but certainly he'd be paying attention to her at least twice or three times a day he'd have to visit her and i'm going to the assumption she's still alive um uh so so he's being very careful i don't know if he's on email doing these types of email sending off.

1:00:29I think that's someone else. As I said the other day, the guy that steals your phone on the subway is not the one that makes money off selling it to some place to get the material out of it. He just gets his quick 50 bucks. Is that this guy's role or is he just doing this strictly for anger and some kind of frustration? The last part here, now the video gets released about 25 hours ago. He all of a sudden gets frenetic. So whatever this guy's odd behavior was before, if you're around him, things change. he's looking to he's putting things in bags and suitcases he's moving them out does he start a fire in a barrel somewhere does he get a shovel and start burying things uh go somewhere near water that's very possibility moving around quickly does he change his appearance shave a mustache cut his hair uh that's very possible dye his hair even though you don't really see any hair in that regard uh if he has a car he may be keeping that inside a garage not wanting it anywhere If he thinks now he's been seen on video, he may think his car has been on video.

1:01:27And he's still very focused on the media. He may be listening to us in real time. And if he is, please let Mrs. Guthrie's go. And the damage you've caused will be a lot less, including for you. So I'll be glad to open this up to Maureen and Mary Ellen. But these are some of the factors. Look at the video. Then look at these behavioral elements that I just listed. And you could be some more in there. and that's the person we're looking for then call the fbi and uh let them know and i guarantee you someone will follow up on it what do you guys have thoughts on that yeah i think right now this guy is very agitated and he's going to have a very short temper whoever whoever this person is because he is he is trapped in a corner and he's a rat with regard to the front door or the back door, which one?

1:02:17Well, they may have more video that shows him opening that door somehow. And if he did, either it was a practice of Mrs. Guthrie to either accidentally or purposefully leave that door unlocked, which is, I would have a hard time believing that, or they may have had a key. I don't know. And then they opened the back door just to make it look like they came in from the back door. That's true because we don't see him struggling with the door at all. We only see him struggling with the Nest camera. So we still remain in the dark about how he actually got into the house. Go ahead, Mary Ellen. And to add to what Maureen and Jim have already said, you've got the behavioral modifications to his appearance that he very likely could have engaged in.

1:03:04But what he can't change is his personality. It is what it is. and I think that he's probably glued to the TV to the radio listening to people talk about what he's done and I think one of the real questions that that I always have in a in a crime of extreme violence is does the offender feel bad for what they've done to the victim and not to become too graphic. But this was probably so upsetting for Nancy to have this happen to her, to be taken out of her home and put in a car with a stranger. I mean, what she must have gone through is agonizing. What her family is going through is agonizing. I think we have to allow for the possibility, Maureen and Jim and I have seen people like this, they have no empathy for the victim.

1:03:57And so you asked earlier about what he would think about somebody else being pulled over for his crime. That may not have gone well with this offender because he wants credit for what he did, if that's the kind of offender that we're talking about. And I can tell you this, and Maureen and Jim, you weigh in on this. This is the hardest thing for the general public to comprehend is that there are people that feel no remorse for what they do, no empathy for the victim. and take a great deal of pleasure in what they've accomplished, and that they feel they are outwitting law enforcement in this investigation.

1:04:37If that's what we're dealing with, that puts this person in a whole different category. And that's what we try to do, is we look at all of this behavior and offer it to the investigators to say, you could be looking for this kind of person, the pre, the post behavior, but you also could be looking for somebody like this. At this point, we're not sure, but you have to consider the possibility. This person doesn't feel anything for the victim and what they've done. And that, I mean, that's the scariest thought of all, because we don't know where Nancy Guthrie is and whether it's possible she's still alive.

1:05:12There was some speculation. We've talked about it, that like an experienced kidnapper takes the medications. Like they actually, it's not because they care about the victim at all. It's that they know I've got to keep my prize alive and well if I want to get paid. But this guy does not appear to have taken her medication and does not appear to have been in touch if he didn't write those two ransom notes. The first ransom note to the three news organizations and then the follow-up note where there was no proof of life, but really just like a reminder that I've got her. And I'm just assuming that's what's in there.

1:05:47This is the thing I've wanted to get to, though. The Nest camera. it's very interesting that he came up. So like, keep in mind, one of our theories is that possibly, possibly he stalked the house and knew it well, and like knew exactly what his plan was coming up. Another one is possibly he was hired by a friend or a family member of Nancy Guthrie's and told, please go at one in the morning and do the following thing, 147. And that person would have told him under the second theory, there's a Nest camera. Now that could be why he wore a ski mask or he wore a ski mask because he didn't want Nancy Guthrie to be able to identify him.

1:06:28We don't know, but he shows up there almost surprised. I don't know that there's a Nest camera. And the reason I say he looks surprised is because you see him sort of fiddling with it. He's got his gloved hand. He's kind of fiddling with, he does the bang, bang, bang, the gentle taps on the Nest camera. He doesn't try that hard. And then he gives up. He's like, I'm going to cover it with vegetation. And he goes and he gets the vegetation and comes back and covers it. And then we never see him get the Nest camera off of the wall. We do see in the post-crime pictures taken after police got involved, the remnants, the receptacle that holds the Nest camera still there.

1:07:06And we know from the sheriff, yeah, that they don't have the Nest cameras. The law enforcement does not have the Nest cameras, the perpetrator took them. So eventually the guy does get the Nest camera and we're told by Ashley Banfield that there was one in the back door too, and he got both of them. Her store said they were destroyed and the sheriff said, we don't have them. So we believe he destroyed them and took them, but we know for a fact that they were gone. So what do you see? Do you see like a clever man come up and boom, boom, the Nest cameras off, it's destroyed. You see him step on it and the filming stops.

1:07:38No, that's not what you see. You see him come up, do the tap, tap, tap. He gives up, he gets the vegetation. And then we're not exactly sure what he does after that because the videos don't all seem sequential and we're not exactly sure what the, what the sequence of events was, but let me show you. So we got, we had our producer, Jake Whitman, get a Nest camera and try to get it off of its holder on the wall. And he did this little video. It's very clear. Watch this. Watch. Okay, Megan, I've installed the Nest doorbell camera on our door to the garage here. And what's interesting is it comes with a little tab, just a little flat tab, almost like a tip of a screwdriver, really.

1:08:20And that's how you remove it from the top. So you just push down and it clicks right off, sort of. There it goes. So it pulls right off that way. And that's how you take it off to charge it, because it is battery-powered. It needs to be charged every so often. There's no wires here. And you'll see this plate looks exactly like the one that you see on the house at Nancy Guthrie's house and all the news videos. So it's the same model. And to put it back, you just click it on the base after you've charged the battery, and it's there. And the question is, how do you get it off without the tab? And I was excited because you said we could smash this if we wanted to, and you'd pay for it.

1:09:03But you don't need to do that. You actually, just with a little bit of force, you can pull it right off. And the base is still there, undamaged. And actually, this camera is still recording. So if I take this and throw it or put it in my bag, it's still going to be recording for a little bit longer. So I got to think there's still video of that, that they haven't recovered, that might show a different angle of things that we haven't seen. There's no evidence that it was damaged on the front porch. So my guess is it was just taken out of Wi-Fi range and that's why it disconnected. Or they could have turned her Wi-Fi off.

1:09:39But taking it off the base, like I just did, does not disconnect it in any way. It's still capturing.

1:09:54that's so interesting so that's jake whitman great job there taking it off the base is easy and does not stop the filming and anybody who knows the nest camera should know that if you have this little key it's the size of like a key a girl might have for her diary for the listening audience. It's small. It's like an inch large. It pops right off. And so it would take nothing for like an experienced burglar or kidnapper who's by this point probably familiar with nest cams to know, oh, all I need is this little thing. It's off. And you don't even need this. You saw Jake just wiggle it a little in its cradle and it came right off.

1:10:42So what, and it's small. I mean, you have it, it fits right in the palm of your hand. And then we can talk about what happens next because there's not an on-off switch, guys. Getting it off is not enough. Getting it off, it should still be rolling. And there should still be images of the guy getting it off, which maybe Cash has and just hasn't shared. But what does it tell you, just so far, I'll stop it there, that he didn't seem to know how to get it off. He tried. He did the wrong thing with the fist fist fist and seemed to be a bit of an amateur there. Go ahead, Fitz. Yeah, real quick. The audio from your producer, Jay, was that from his separate mic system or is that some from the Nest camera?

1:11:28There is audio to these cameras. I think that's separate. We're going to ask. I'm guessing it's separate. And he did tell me that that this thing has audio, but the default setting from the factory is no audio on. So you'd have to go into the system and turn the audio on if you wanted that, which the odds of Nancy Guthrie, you know, knowing how to do that. I mean, I guess she could have told the Nest camera installer that she wanted that, but we didn't hear audio and what the FBI released. So I'm just going to guess there wasn't any. Keep going. Maureen, we talked during the break and you have some insight about these cameras.

1:12:06I think that was great for your audience to put that up there, Megan, and a good idea for your team's part. Maureen, I'd be curious to hear some of what you were telling me over the break. Okay, great. But first, Nancy didn't install this, and whoever this person is did not install this Nest camera, or he would know what you just explained to us. But I have a very close colleague that I work with on my team all the time, and he is an IT genius. and he said that um with regard um Megan this is with regard to how the FBI extracted this data back after people thought it was gone would you like to go into this now or would you like to finish with yeah all right well well let's finish with it let's finish with it because by the way Jake is telling me now that the audio was both when we were watching the nest video of him, it was playing, the audio was playing from the Nest.

1:13:00And when we were watching his nicer video of like more color shots, it was Jake's audio on his mic. So in other words, you can get decent audio from Nest. Go ahead. Just real quick, and I'll give it back to Maureen, but can you imagine if he took those with him, this guy in the mask, and he's someone in the car where he starts talking to himself, still within Wi-Fi range of the house, what valuable information that could be on audio. Yes, or the crime. Well, the crime itself too, of course, which this is all the crime. But here's why I raised that. It's not just for fun. So we're going to do an experiment here, not just for kicks, but because what did we see in the Brian Enten video of the front stoop?

1:13:43We saw that the vegetation and the blood was still there. They did not clean it up. What didn't we see? a smashed nest camera. We did not see any pieces of nest camera smashed in the front or the back. And actually, so that's what we're just going to see. I mean, just to see. They brought me a little cutting board. They brought me a hammer. And I am going to try to hammer this nest camera just to see if it's hard. All right, so I have a hammer. I'm going to smash this nest camera. Be careful, Megan. I will, I will. Do you have glasses? But just to see if it's easy. Do you have glasses to put on?

1:14:17Do I have what? Do you have glasses to put on in case you start? I'll wear my reader glasses. I'll wear my readers. Okay. Put a flashlight in your mouth and a mask and you can... Okay, here we go. No, it's not that easy to destroy. But the camera part's probably easy. I've destroyed the lens.

1:14:40All right, so now I've really wailed on it. And there's just tiny little pieces of glass and shards, but the actual camera itself is still pretty much intact. In fact, I should have warned the listening audience that that was going to be right by the microphone. My bad. Thank you. But where, so it did take some effort and it's possible he took this, you guys, but where are the remnants of it? And if he, the camera went up and when I smashed it, we had it online just as an experiment. It went offline when I smashed it. So there's no remnants of it, however, and it's gone. So you tell me whether you think Kash Patel possibly has shots of this guy stealing it, damaging it, or whether the guy was so dumb he took it eventually, put it in that backpack, and possibly they have actual pictures of the inside of the house and what went down that are waiting to be retrieved by the geniuses at Google.

1:15:35Or the audio. Or the audio. The question is, did your producers, I mean, obviously, they were there when you were smashing it. Could the information that Ashley Banfield provided to you, that it was in fact smashed and destroyed, could that have come from someone who was knowledgeable of the fact that someone, they had video or audio of someone smashing the hell out of it? That's a good question. Can I just throw in here, I've put these cameras in a couple different houses. They need batteries. You don't have to smash it. And your producer can correct me. I think they don't run without batteries.

1:16:15They don't have a built-in battery. Remove the two AAA batteries. Wait, I think he said we had to charge it. No, he said it wasn't battery operated. He said you have to plug it in and charge it. And even before we used it here on the set, we had it plugged into like an iPhone charger. All right, so then the power would stay on and it would have to then be smashed. He did say if you disconnected the person's Wi-Fi, the camera will die. Like it does have to be connected. But like the odds of this guy having, Like, did he get in there and disconnect her Wi-Fi? No, that guy, that numbskull with the vegetation.

1:16:45So he must have destroyed the camera. They must have additional pictures because like all those shots, we don't see the end of this. And so I do wonder whether the FBI knows more than it's telling us about what exactly happened to the cameras, knows exactly how this guy dismantled them and maybe has shots of him in the backyard too. Because my guess is when he couldn't get into that front door. Almost all of our experts think he couldn't have gotten through that front door, that he went around to the back, that he had more luck in the back, that he got rid of that camera. He went in the back door.

1:17:17He may have broken the back door, which is why it was open, according to Ashley, when they got there. And then he brought Nancy out the front when the crime was done. And that's maybe when he grabbed the ring camera or the Nest camera off the front when he He was on his way out of the house with it. But still we have the FBI telling us that it was 1.47 a.m. that the Nest camera went offline and 2.28 a.m. that the pacemaker stopped communicating. So I just I wonder whether there is more there's more to be recovered. And now we can talk about how Google might be trying to find those images. Well, my money would be on him ripping the camera off before because he knows for sure his hands are going to be full on his way out.

1:18:09So that would be what I would expect to see. But of course, I could be wrong. So with regard to how they probably got this imagery for us. And might get more. Yeah, I'm sure they do. I don't think that they would cough up everything they have, but just having been in these situations, Fitz and I have seen information go out from the Bureau many times and in other investigations we've been involved in, and it's very rarely. Actually, I can say it's never been everything we have, ever. So not specifically knowing what the platform is, even though it's a Google platform, we don't know exactly how this thing is configured.

1:18:53The camera does send its video to vendor server's platform so that it can be routed to the user's mobile application for live viewing. Remember I talked to you yesterday about the thumbnail? Yeah, we have that. The announcement that... When somebody comes to your door, you can see it on your phone. So, for live viewing, even when they don't have a subscription for storing the video data on the vendor server. I would imagine the vendor was able to recover the user's streaming video from their platform's memory. And a way to illustrate this, imagine that you send an email from your account to my account, but you don't save the email to one of your email folders.

1:19:32Evidence of the email communication would still exist for a limited period of time on the email servers due to this routing process. So it's all about the routing process. As another example, if you had a CCTV camera that you viewed on a mobile app, the video data has to be sent over to a video platform for processing before it's routed over the internet to your mobile app. The platform's processing memory, the RAM, would have traces of this processing just for a limited period of time. If you had a subscription, obviously it would be much longer. so well that i mean they're they're probably finding all of it seems like a needle in a haystack situation that they're that google's helping with now either because we're told that they did get a warrant we're also told that the guthrie family gave permission of course on behalf of their mother and um the fbi and google have been working together to find it but it sounds like it's needle in the haystack stuff to try to get to the images it's not like very clear oh i'll just go to the address of nancy guthrie and i'll pull up what's there no it's I do data extraction for a lot of my clients because I have these experts that work for my company.

1:20:43And I even have a very high-level PhD person that is just outstanding. And he says he never works with the guy on my team who worked for the FBI for 30 years. He never works with him for more than 15 minutes without learning something. That's how good he is. But Megan, could I talk for a moment about what Cash Patel said about the partnerships that we have with private sector? because my last couple years as an agent, I was completely burned out from casework, and I became the PSC, which is the private sector coordinator. With that, I was responsible for the InfraGard program, which is the largest national public-private sector partnership anywhere that we know of, and it's run by the FBI and funded largely by the FBI, and also DSAC.

1:21:33In between DSAC, which is the domestic security, it's all Fortune 100 companies, or I guess it could be Fortune 500 companies. So we work very closely with members from every sector. And we try, if we're low on one sector, and we see spikes in crime in that sector, we work hard to develop more relationships with people so that we have someone to call when there is an emerging situation. And if you consider - Well, I mean, this is an important one. Oh, yeah. So we do this. The Nest camera. This is what we're waiting for. This is what we do. Well, that makes perfect sense. And thankfully, they're cooperating.

1:22:11But you tell me, you know, one person that didn't coordinate was the guy who did this crime with anybody who's installed a Nest camera, because why wouldn't he have just brought the key? Truly, this thing alone could have gotten that thing off in two seconds. Or you saw Jake Whitman pull it, just wiggle it. So this guy does not have experience. What that tells me is he's not that experienced at committing these break ins because these cameras are a dime a dozen now. Almost everybody has them. He didn't seem to know what he was doing. And it does make me question whether he had any coordination with a family member of Nancy Guthrie, because that person would have told him there are Nest cameras.

1:22:49You're going to have to get it down. There should have been some preplanning. And now I'm starting to wonder like how well thought out this whole thing was, because why didn't he know any of this? Like this is basic prep work, is it not? Especially if he's like the super intelligent, never makes a grammatical error guy who wrote the things that impressed Harvey so much. He doesn't he didn't know about the little key. He didn't know about the wiggling. He had to do the vegetation. Like, who is this person? He could have been told by his co-conspirator that it's very easy, just pull it right out of its housing.

1:23:24But he's not a manhandler like whoever his co-conspirator was or is. Or he had help in the back who had a lot easier time getting down the back Nest camera and possibly opened up the front door for him. or, you know, we don't, there may have been another person there, but to me, it just seems incongruous that you have this guy show up like a numbskull, not able to wiggle the Nest camera down and resorting to, I'm just going to put some flowers over it, which doesn't seem like a great plan, you guys. You know, it just, it seems haphazard. Megan, the most glaring thing of all is the way this clown carried his weapon.

1:24:07He brings a whole new meaning to the term gunslinger. None of us have ever seen anything like this. And Fitz was right when he said, you know, with his comment earlier. Freud would have a field day. Ridiculous. It's right. It's in exactly the right spot. And we talked yesterday about it seem to have sort of an extended barrel, which is part of the whole theory. I don't know how that translates into what people are looking for right now. He's happy to be there. Yeah. But I mean, that just shows he's macho or something because that holster is for a longer barreled revolver. And here he's got a smaller semi-automatic in there.

1:24:59But he can. it's like the boldness of it. You're like, I would think if you're going to go rob somebody's house, first of all, I think you'd be, you'd have like a hat on, you know, to make yourself look less conspicuous, like hide your ski mask. I would definitely think you'd hide your gun. It's like, how can I make myself look as much like a criminal as humanly possible? I'm going to put my gun right here on the outside where everybody can see it. And you were telling us yesterday, Maureen, This is actually, this looked to you like a holster that normally is supposed to go on the inside of your pants.

1:25:31But no, he wore it on the outside. He wanted to show it off. I guess maybe he wanted to scare Nancy. And the ski mask, which also is very intimidating and scary. But it's like, okay, once you can get into the house, you can look very scary. But God forbid somebody see you, you're toast. There was no pre-planning for the thought that somebody could see him. His plan was to kill that person. And can I correct something I said yesterday that wasn't correct? because as you know, when these images first came to us, they were popping up on air and my screen is small and the images were a fraction of my screen.

1:26:04I mistakenly said that those gloves were leather because of the small image. Once I saw the larger images, it was clear to me that they were black rubber or plastic gloves over cloth or some other type of glove, which, by the way, in forensics, when you wear gloves like that all day, like you see them all the time in food service, by the way, they all wear those black, they're like food prep, they're very common to be used as food prep gloves. But when you wear them all day, your hands sweat, and it makes everything difficult to, it makes your fine motor skills much more difficult. So in forensic, on the FBI's ERT team, we would always use cotton gloves, really thin cotton gloves under whatever rubber gloves we're wearing or latex or just to make, because then you can wear them for long periods of time.

1:27:04He wasn't thinking he was going to be in there for long, but long enough. Go ahead, Fitz. Two things, quasi-related. I don't want to give this guy too much credit. We'll say the guy at the door, we're not ruling out other people involved and who knows where the kidnapping part comes in. But I still can't believe he didn't have some sort of information about the house, certainly who lives there. She could have been an 84-year-old woman who doesn't have a daughter who's very wealthy and successful on TV and takes her out. So he knew all of that. But I'm wondering if the inside information was, don't worry, they don't have a subscription service, you know, the ring, the nest cameras, not to do anything for you.

1:27:47Don't worry about that. But he decides for maybe counter forensic purposes to kind of throw off the trail. And I'm still trying to, you know, here comes razor here. But, you know, well, let me take these things anyway, just in case there's something on there, never knowing that whether he takes them or not smashes them or whatever the deal is, they still come back with this video that we've seen in the last few, in the last day or so. So again, he may be trying to pretend he's smarter than he is, take these things. I had plenty of bank robbers over the day when I was working with New York City.

1:28:22They'd take the camera down, or they'd insist the manager goes up, remove the film back then, a cassette, and they would take that with them. And usually in that case, that was it. But there's no way this guy destroyed the camera, which the sheriff is denying. He's like, I don't know where you got that. I don't know where that comes from. or not going to comment on it. So he's not really denying it, but he's like, I have no idea where that came from. We're not going to comment on it. But that's Ashley's reporting. Clearly he did destroy it because we, every time we've done this with Jake, with me, the camera was working.

1:28:53There's no on off button. The camera was working when we pulled it out of the holster. And the thing that turned, that stopped the camera from working is you either turn off the wifi, its battery runs out, meaning the charge that you've given it via a cord has run out or you've smashed it. So clearly her reporting was right. I mean, basically what we've done here in part is we've, not that it needed rehabilitation, but we've rehabilitated or lended credibility to even more of Ashley Banfield's reporting, all of which we believe has been spot on thus far. And of course, the big magilla of her news scoops was that as of Tuesday of last week, the brother-in-law may be the prime suspect.

1:29:36And that is something we don't know whether it's true. It's obviously something we need to consider, especially given the recurring presence of law enforcement around Annie and Tomas's home. And the fact that he completely disappeared. We haven't seen him at all. And I mean, we haven't seen the other spouses either. I mean, Savannah's married. We haven't seen her husband. I don't know about her brother, Cameron, whether he's married. So in fairness to him, but he's a local and obviously he's under scrutiny. So, you know, you might let yourself be seen just to show like we're still together. The family stands by me.

1:30:10That hasn't happened. And, you know, on top of that, we're now seeing search after search after search after search in his backyard and of his neighbors. Re-questioning of his neighbors with the video images of this perp. Do you know him? Do you know him? Do you know? And the obvious implication is like, has he been here working on your house or as a guest of the two people here? I mean, no one wants to say that. And I don't want to wrongfully impugn the guy either. But it's irresponsible not to consider this as one of the avenues that the police are looking into. That they would be considering the family is not a mystery.

1:30:46And frankly, it's not controversial. Obviously, they are considering that or they'd be idiots. It has to be one of the things that they're looking into, and thus is one of the things we consider too while maintaining a presumption of innocence and the basic premise that the family seems to still, as far as we know, be embracing him and not suspecting him. All right, I'm going to leave it there for one second. We're going to take a quick break, and then we're going to come back and be joined, in addition to you guys, by two profilers who have real thoughts on what the motives here may be. Okay, don't go away.

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1:32:23Fitz and Maureen are still with me and joining me now as well, Will Geddes. Will is an elite bodyguard who has over 30 years of experience as a security expert. He consults with U.S. law enforcement and federal government agencies, and he now runs a firm called International Corporate Protection. Also with me, James Hamilton. He is a former FBI supervisory special agent and creator of the FBI's Close Protection School, which is a specialized training program designed for agents to protect high-level officials. He now runs his own security firm called Hamilton Security Group. Will, James, welcome to you both.

1:32:58We just did a little experiment here, which is kind of interesting because what the FBI is telling us is that that ring camera nest, it's the nest, went offline at 147 a.m. And what we have seen, thanks to our own experiment, is pulling the camera off of its base does not turn it offline. if it runs out of the charge, it would go offline. But presumably that didn't happen just as the bad guy arrived. Disconnecting it from Wi-Fi could show you that it's offline, but we have no reason to believe he cut some sort of a Wi-Fi line. And what happened in our experiment was it did not disconnect until we literally brought the hammer down on it.

1:33:43And that is when it disconnected. And so if that is true, in fact, we have the video. Now they've turned it. Here it is. Here's video from the camera of me bringing the hammer down on it. I guess, okay, I'm getting ready. I'm putting my glasses on and this is the little, okay, there it is. That's me hammering it. Oh, hold on. And before I've actually touched it, before I've actually touched it, it's going to go offline. And so it goes offline actually like a second before it's all destroyed. But the point is, at 1.47, now it's offline, at 1.47 a.m., he must have destroyed it. So all this stuff is happening, we think, before 1.47 a.m., moving the timeline back a little bit.

1:34:29Because let's not forget, this video doesn't show him succeeding in destroying it. It shows him putting vegetation in front of it. So, like, there was a longer time there. And I don't know, you know, how much longer he was standing there in front of the Guthrie home with his ski mask on and his gun showing to everybody that, you know, it took him to finally get the camera disconnected. And still, 10 minutes later or so, it caught an image. Or I think it was at 212, it caught an image of a body. Okay, let me ask you guys, because you're the experts at like the profile of who's doing bad acts, who's doing things like this.

1:35:07And I'll start with you on it, Jim. We haven't talked a lot about it, but the fact that Savannah Guthrie is a national celebrity, I mean, I don't, news people don't like to be called celebrities, but she is, is something that's probably getting too little play as we consider motivations here. Your thoughts? Is that for Jim Fitzgerald or James Hamilton? Yeah, that's for James, James Hamilton. Fitzgerald's Fitz now. We know him well, so he's Fitz. Gotcha. Thanks for that. Yeah. Yeah, clearly anyone in the public eye is going to, you know, get some scrutiny and also get things like this. So I wouldn't put it past it.

1:35:44Certainly there's a relationship that the investigators are looking at. And, you know, for people like you, people in the public eye, certainly there's going to need to be some type of security protocols and training and just a general awareness that is really above the general person. because you are related to a high visibility type of individual. And that certainly can't be discounted. What do you think the likelihood is, Will, that Savannah's public figure status is a motivation here in some way? I think it's highly likely, Megan. I've dealt with a number of cases where, certainly in terms of either some sort of fixation or certainly targeting, this was a targeted attack.

1:36:30and what will generally happen if it is a kidnapping and it turns out to be a kidnapping it will be to go through the path of least resistance and that is to target a family member who won't necessarily have the same level or status of security around them whether that be in their home or whether they have any specific security that's assigned to them by their company or by their organization so this was a targeted attack to target children is quite often the case but it can be elderly family members. So, you know, my gut at the moment is this is directly connected, obviously, to Savannah. And I think this ultimately, it wasn't a burglary, that's for sure.

1:37:10And certainly in terms of the condition of Nancy, that's obviously going to be very difficult to tell until such time as a proof of life in some shape or form is delivered. So when you thought that, Will, you thought it's related to Savannah, um did did how did seeing the pictures yesterday influence your opinion at all if at all well i certainly i've been watching us as james obviously uh the the lead up on what you guys have been covering before we came and joined you and i would say they became very ill-prepared they're not entirely professional i've seen highly professional groups there would have been no doubt some advanced reconnaissance but not sophisticated enough to be able to determine how to remove a ring doorbell.

1:37:54And certainly, good, organised, professional kidnappers will look at all aspects of denying electricity, denying power, and then obviously considering anything that is remotely powered, like a ring doorbell. So, you know, I looked at them, looked at the position like you guys were talking about, the position of his forearm, overtly, not covertly, in an abdomen, sort of concealed carry way. and in terms of obviously his outfit, what he was wearing. There were a lot of identifiers on there, which I think the law enforcement agencies and obviously the federal agencies will be following up on and chasing obviously to try and determine where he may have sourced these items.

1:38:35And how about you, James? What do you think? Well, I enjoyed listening to you all earlier. And just a couple of things. I'm going to go out on a little bit of a limb here. I'm not so convinced this is a guy. until I can have absolute proof that this is a male. The eyes seem like eyeliner. I wouldn't put it past being a woman. It does look like he's wearing eyeliner. Thank you for saying that. It does look like he's wearing eyeliner in the one shot. So I'm not going to go there. I will say a friend of ours, James Gaglione, has been on site there, and he said how dark it is, that area. And to me, that would certainly explain this silly carrying of the firearm.

1:39:14Well, if he was getting like Fitz was saying, if he's getting out of a car and walking up to the house, then, you know, putting it in a stupid way that he's carrying it or the person's carrying the firearm. I don't see the problem with that one because no one's going to see it. It's so dark there. No one's going to see the stupid carry of the firearm. So and lastly, I would just say that we can. Yeah, he looks he or she looks stupid and looks strange and doing some strange things. But let's not discount the success here. It has been 10 days. We have not heard a word. We are no closer to catching this person.

1:39:49And they've been on the run now for 10 days. And the FBI is the best in the business and they haven't caught him. So he's not completely stupid. And, you know, James, let me ask you a follow up. Good point. You were at the FBI for almost 25 years, I think. You worked kidnappings like. Is this does this look like a professional kidnapping? Like, is kidnapping even common? No, it's extremely rare. And, you know, I was saying earlier to somebody in 23 years in law enforcement, I think I worked two of them. And so unless you're in New York or L.A. in the hotbed of these things, it doesn't happen a lot.

1:40:24And what you see frequently is they happen in these places like we're seeing here. And the police don't have a lot of experience working these types of cases. They're very rare. Why? Because, you know, somebody it's a lot easier to kill somebody than to kidnap them. and why because something's gonna you know there's usually some type of a struggle there's some type of injury we saw it with you know sydney rezzo with exxon we're seeing it now you know in this case there's her blood on the porch it's very difficult to kidnap somebody and they're just very rarely done the thing i don't like about this case is we have not had any proof of life communications through a tmz the kidnappings i've been involved in go right to the family they go to where the money is they want to get the money you know that's why they did the kidnapping I mean, this whole thing has been very strange to me as I'm looking at it from an outsider.

1:41:13Well, how in their defense, like, is it sorry, is it 20 or 90 hard to the break and then we'll come back. But it's not going to be easy to get Savannah Guthrie's phone number. You know, like how how do the kidnappers normally get the contact information of the family? Yeah, well, the same way they got her mother, you know, they can contact the family. The family will, you know, it's pretty well known. You contact the police and police are in contact with the family. You contact the FBI and they'll put you in touch. I mean, that's not that difficult to go through Levin at TMZ. That's just bizarre to me.

1:41:44Why would you do that? Why would you do that? I mean, is it for attention to because you're enjoying? I've seen occasions in the news. I mean, I have seen occasions, Megan, where a third party will be utilized. I mean, but but it does. It is very counterintuitive to the fact that one of the biggest enemies to a kidnapper, if this is indeed a kidnapping, is media publicity. And the greater the publicity that takes place, and I've worked with a couple of cases, where because it garnished so much media attention, it actually didn't end in a very positive outcome, obviously for the hostage. So I would agree with James, TMZ is an interesting choice, but certainly in terms of - Because normally you hear, like, this may be just movie stuff, and forgive me for interrupting you, we're going to continue this though as we take a break, but normally you hear them saying, like don't involve the police and don't involve anybody and keep it on the down low.

1:42:36They want to keep it under the radar, not here. We're right back. Quick break. Don't go away. You know, Pure Talk's favorite holiday, it's President's Day because they believe wireless service should cost you only a couple of presidents, just a Jackson and a Lincoln, to be exact. For just 25 bucks a month, Pure Talk gives you unlimited talk, text, and plenty of data. Now compare that to big wireless. They'd rather celebrate Benjamin Franklin Day. so they can charge your family hundreds every month. That's not right. You deserve better. Pure Talk is an American wireless company who supports our veterans and invests in a US-only customer service team.

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1:44:47We have more now with our FBI and security experts now, but just want to read you a statement from the FBI on activity today that they released a short time ago. This morning, numerous FBI agents are conducting an extensive search along multiple roadways in the Catalina Foothills area related to the Nancy Guthrie investigation, asking the media to follow all traffic laws and so on. So that's how they describe it. They say extensive search along multiple roadways in the Catalina Foothills area. We're told by producers on site that they are now today focused on the area where Nancy Guthrie lived.

1:45:22yesterday was where Annie Guthrie and Tomas, her husband, lived, describing it as, quote, extensive searches. So covering both locations bit by bit and over and over and over again. I mean, can we just talk about what you guys think that means? Like, haven't they found all the physical clues by now that are there to find? It's like virtually every day they're out there. you're shaking your head no Maureen why because um being on the evidence response team and also being part of um you know being a case agent involved in a lot of these cases especially when you open a tip line so as soon as they offer that fifty thousand dollar reward that just opened the floodgates that as everyone here certainly those of us in the bureau can attest to and when they open those floodgates you're going to get a whole bunch of other tips for example you're going to get phone calls saying, hey, on the day after she disappeared or late that night, I was driving by a highway, whatever.

1:46:26And right here at the mile marker 32, I saw a car pulled over and parked or whatever. Then you've got all the technical stuff going on in the background that we talked about with the geofencing and everything. And if they opened it up and looked at the hours afterwards and such and such, they'll notice that two devices were stopped on the side of the road what someplace or the other, you know, so even they're checking all these things out as they come in and as they're developing throughout the investigation, it's very fluid and it's very, it's very intensive. James Hamilton, is it, what do we glean from the fact that they keep going back to Annie and Tomas's home and neighborhood?

1:47:13Nancy had eaten dinner with them that night, allegedly played games and was dropped off back at her house, which is, I'm told, four miles or 10 minutes away. So why? I mean, I don't want to jump to conclusions about that couple, but that is not, we're told, the crime scene. So why are they so obsessed with canvassing that neighborhood and that backyard? Yeah, I don't think you're jumping to conclusions at all. You always start with who saw the victim last. And in this case, that's who saw Miss Guthrie last. So that makes complete sense that they're going to run that to ground and continue to look at that story.

1:47:51And don't forget, kidnappings, like we were saying earlier, they're very, very difficult. And so this indication there's more searching going on, this is a very desolate area. This isn't Manhattan. It's possible there's a place to put a body in a lot of different places. And remember, this kidnapping, obviously, there was some violence and we know there's a heart issue. So either the violence could have caused some, you know, God forbid she died during the kidnapping or shortly thereafter, or her heart, God forbid, stopped. And now this kidnapper's stuck with this dead body. What's he going to do, right?

1:48:22He's not going to get any money for it if that was his intent was to kidnap to get the money. Now, what are you going to do? Well, you know, maybe you dump it and then you just, you know, drive away. And so there's going to be, like Maureen was saying, people giving tips, saying, hey, I saw this, you know, no one's talked about this white van. That's a whole good lead. No one seem to want to talk about it. I'd love to talk about it. But, you know, that's what you're seeing here. I'm shocked that there's a very specialized unit of dogs that the FBI has that can track a lot of things. I'm surprised they haven't been deployed.

1:48:52Maybe they have. But things like that, I would have been expected to see by now. Will, you're shaking your head yes. Yeah. I mean, a couple of things I'd probably pick up on, Megan, from your comments about the interest in family members or close family members well the one the first thing that i got taught when i first learned kidnapping ransom negotiation was the 70 percent rule and it still prevails to this day and that is this that in most kidnappings if this is indeed a kidnapping in 70 percent of cases there will be someone connected to the victim that will be working in close proximity or will be a family member.

1:49:33And I think through the process of obviously elimination, the feds are going to have to look very much at the family very, very closely to see whether they are a viable prospect in terms of being suspects or whether they can be discounted from their inquiries. And just to cover on a point that James made, I've negotiated on the return of a dead body. So again, depending on who the group is, I agree with James that yes, if he does have the frail Nancy on his hands and she passes away, he may or they may potentially discard the body. But if there's a slightly more professional element behind it, they may still continue to negotiate against that for the return of it.

1:50:16I think the key issue here really is the proof of life or lack thereof of. Go ahead, Fitz, I can see you want to get in. Yeah, and historically speaking, everything that's being said here in the last few minutes is accurate. The last known, and I'll touch on a few subjects, and I'm going to be corrected here, but the last known for-profit kidnapping of which we are aware took place in the outskirts of Oslo, Norway. And the media was not involved or told about that for weeks after it happened. Kidnapping note was left at the table. She's missing, body never recovered. Husband was arrested, then released thereafter.

1:50:53We brought up Sydney Riso, I did early last week, the Exxon executive. He died four days into his captivity. Those kidnappers kept it up for 50 plus days after that, trying to get the money. Husband and wife team eventually arrested. We talked about some of that last week. And to go back to the search aspects of it, there's never a wrong search or a bad search. I mean, as long as it's legal with consent, things we've all discussed already so far. And that is, there's nothing wrong with re-interviewing, re-re-re-interviewing multiple times people as new information comes up. So to me, it doesn't necessarily put any more of a suspicion on family members when agents are going back.

1:51:32The other thing I'll throw out there, I haven't heard this mentioned at all by anyone in the media. And I've been to Phoenix a few times. I'm not sure Tucson. I know it's not a lake-filled or pond-filled area, but I'm sure there are reservoirs or retaining ponds, pools, whatever they call them. I've heard nothing about any dive teams going into them anywhere along the way. And maybe someone here has. But that's something that should also be considered. Again, I'm not looking for Mrs. Guthrie's here necessarily, but certainly tools, elements of the crime, anywhere along any sort of egress, that's something they may want to consider if they haven't already.

1:52:09We predicted this, and now it hits via TMZ, that the FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Department are homing in on the outfit, the presumed kidnapper wore. As he approached the front door, they are on the hunt for who bought the items. Law enforcement sources involved in the investigation tell TMZ they singled out three items in particular, those gloves, Maureen, the backpack, and the gun visible on the Nest video. We're told authorities are contacting manufacturers and retailers to figure out who may have purchased the items, the gloves, the backpack, and the gun. What's interesting to me is like, maybe not the gloves, like the backpack and the gun.

1:52:50That's something guns are big in America and they're big in the Southwest. It's not unusual to find somebody out there with a gun and it's not unusual to find anybody with a backpack, a face mask that, you know, you wear that where I grew up in Syracuse, New York. That's everyone's got one, but in Tucson. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You can wear it down to get your mail. If you want to have your face when you get back inside. But this, that to me seems very suspicious. In any event, they of course are going to do that because we saw in Kohlberger, as clever as he was in some ways, he bought that damn K-Bar knife on Amazon, on Amazon.

1:53:31So even somebody, Brian Kohlberger was brilliant in some ways, but like made such elemental mistakes. So I get, they're probably checking the Amazon histories of all the family and maybe contractors who show up at the house, right? And then beyond that, you got to go the other end of the transaction, the sellers. That you can't just go to Amazon and say, who bought a face mask? Can you? I don't know if you can, but you definitely can go to the retail stores and say, do you sell this backpack? Look at it. And it was very distinctive looking. I still haven't figured out whether those are lights on his shoulder straps or reflective patches, but it's a very distinctive backpack and we have both the front and the back of it pictured.

1:54:12Very helpful, no? Very helpful. Very helpful. I think you've highlighted the key areas as far as I'm concerned, which are the most identifiable in trying to obviously trace the firearm, I agree. I think even in terms of the ski mask, I think that that could be a lost leader in trying to follow inquiries on that. It'd be very difficult. And who knows, maybe he knitted it or a family member knitted it. I mean, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's been bought from a retail store. But I think the backpack, certainly trousers, certainly the jacket. Certainly those are, those are the three areas I'd be most concentrating on.

1:54:48One of our audience members is pointing out, can we play the video where he, he realizes that he can't, he's got to turn around. He's got to go back out and get the vegetation and where he bends down. And, and she raised something that I actually have, has been gnawing at me too. Is there something wrong with this guy's leg or knee? Cause watch like when he turns around and goes back out there. Hold on. He's trying to do his little tap tap thing to get the Nest camera off, which does not work. Stand by. Okay. Now he's backing up. Okay. So like where he bends over there, he doesn't look very facile.

1:55:20He doesn't look very limber. And, and when he bends over there, he doesn't look like the most limber person either. Just made me wonder, I'm really going out on a limb here, but like the calmness with, with which he executed the crime and maybe an injury? Could you possibly be looking for somebody, you know, former law enforcement? That's who committed that Exxon kidnapping, former law enforcement. Or was he former, Jim? Or was he current? Anyway, he was definitely law enforcement. Former and former Exxon Security, which of course was Exxon Security Vice President who was kidnapped. Okay. I don't know.

1:55:58I guess you guys, I think, might conclude, based on what you told me yesterday, Maureen and Fitz, that probably not former law enforcement, given the way he's holding that gun. That doesn't, right? And so then maybe not former military either. But he's altering the way he walks when he approaches the front porch and the camera. Because, you know, people can say, oh, he looks surprised that there's a camera. But what we know is how he's dressed. He's dressed to conceal his identity. He has a set of gloves under the nitrile gloves. He may have leggings on under those pants to make him look a little bit heavier than he is.

1:56:42Or her. Or her, which I don't know. That facial hair looks pretty legit, but what do I know? So I think it's an altered gait just on the off chance that someone gets some video off this thing or if he can't destroy the camera right away or whatever his plan was. because he definitely 100 % is altering the way he walks and his stance as he approaches that camera. Would you guys agree with that? It doesn't look natural. But most likely for utilitarian purposes as opposed to a nagging injury of some sort. We can't rule it out, of course, but he currently has his head down. And he has a big backpack on.

1:57:22We don't know how heavy that thing is and what's in there, of course. So his gait is going to be a little bit, you know, sort of off in that regard. He may have had some practice runs. Let's not forget, too, all the things they're looking for. I'm not sure they sell flashlights that strictly are designed for the mouth, that you push the button, you know, and you squeeze it somehow and the light goes on. That's something else I'm hoping. There can't be too many people that buy those things within 100 miles of Tucson. So I'm hoping that is something they focus on. It could be a clue like that that Roy helps.

1:57:54There were some astute viewers who wrote in about that, what looks like a mouth flashlight of some kind. It is. Saying that you would have to remove from your mouth with your gloves. And there could be a transfer of, you know, your saliva onto the exterior of your gloves. And those gloves then had to touch things in Nancy's home. So, like, that's actually somewhat promising. this guy probably does have his own saliva remnants on those gloves and definitely use the gloved hands to go into the home and and hurt nancy and get nancy and i'm sure he touched something there's one thing i wanted to say about that transfer because that's a very good point that is a mouth um a flashlight and you turn it off and on by biting on it a lot of apparent apparently airline mechanics and stuff like that or people that deal with wires and stuff They'll use it so that their hands can remain free while they do their work.

1:58:48And it's pretty much the same technology as those headlamp ones that you get. But with regard to the gloves, a lot of people always think that I'm wearing gloves, my DNA can't get anywhere. But everyone underestimates the number of times they touch their face, no matter what. Like, you know, I mean, just going like this, and now you touch something. So that's going to be the DNA stuff. And the way you find that sometimes, like even if we look at the, when they took Nancy's car out of the garage, it could have been something as simple as when they went back in there and they looked at the, they turned off the lights and they turned on the flashlights.

1:59:29I used flashlights extensively. And you could see that there's an area where the dust has been swiped away. That's an area you want to look at and you want to test. You're certainly not going to test the entire vehicle as a general rule. But if there's an area like that where the dust is disturbed, that's where it got swiped, and that's where the transfer potentially could have occurred. Well, let me ask you, Will and James, what you think is ran this by our other panelists yesterday. There's one photo in the series that's been released by Kash Patel that shows, we think, this same abductor farther back without the backpack.

2:00:08And you can't see his face at all. It's either because the camera is too pixelated. That's what we were speculating yesterday. Or maybe he's turned it around entirely. But here's the shot. You cannot see any sort of a backpack whatsoever. I don't think you can see the gun. We zoomed in on it yesterday. And you cannot see the holes for the eyes or the mouth. And this too was released to us by the FBI. Now, I can go with maybe pixelation too far away on the face mask, I guess. But no backpack? The backpack? There was all this reflective stuff and the lights or whatever's on it. Like, what do you think we're seeing there?

2:00:47I mean, just jumping in there, James, if you don't mind, there's a couple of quick questions, Megan. Were you given actually unedited footage which ran continually or are these just snapshots which were provided by the Bureau? So, yes, again, they may not necessarily be consecutive. There may have been an initial probe. Sometimes they will make an initial approach to see is there anybody else in the house? Is it undisturbed? Is there just one person there? It's quiet. Everyone's gone to bed. So, you know, he may have returned or she may have returned to go and get that backpack from their vehicle and then make that actual approach.

2:01:25So it could have been an initial probe. But the thing that certainly before I pass to James, the thing that really confuses me, and I'm sure I'd love to hear the opinions of the others, is there are so many contradictions in this whole method of approach. He's using a torch which has to be activated by the mouth rather than a head torch. And it's not a question of him being necessarily seen by anybody with a head torch because he's carrying his weapon obviously outside of his waistband. So and again, the gloves, the mask, the ill preparedness for actually removing the ring doorbell. There are so many contradictions here from what could have been professional to what's somewhat of a clown show and amateur.

2:02:09Yes, totally. Go ahead, James. Yeah, I mean, I agree with a lot of this. I was looking at the picture to see if the shoes were the same, to make sure we've got, you know, the same person. A lot of our online sleuths watching us on YouTube say the shoes look different to them, that the shoes from, you know, faceless man look different from the shoes. But overall, I would say it looks very similar to the guy who we know approached the door. Yeah, when we're doing like surveillance training, we're always taught, you know, shoes, watches, and glasses, people don't usually change those. And so I always kind of look there first.

2:02:41And this person's shoes are different. So is it two people? I don't know. It might be the same person. They're wearing the same outfit. Could be two. The eye holes missing is odd. But I think I agree with Will. It's quite possible. This is the early. They came up, approached, see what they're dealing with. Then they come back with the backpack and then they do this silliness with the flowers to do the obfuscation of the camera. of the camera. But for me, this is, looks like a probing in the beginning before the actual act. You know, that's what I'm seeing. If you guys looked at Twitter yesterday at all, after all this came out, you definitely saw AI images of this guy.

2:03:21I mean, I saw them too. They're very kind of delicious to look at because it's like, aha, the answer. But you know, we would never show them on the air because it's not responsible and it's not real. But could it be? Like, is there some AI technology? Did you want to speak to it, Fitz? Like, can AI be of help in turning these images into something closer to a picture of the guy? Sure. And this is one of the categories we can speculate a lot here among the five of us. And everyone has a valid opinion here. But as we well know, the FBI has not released everything. I'm not even sure what the count is of what's out there.

2:03:55A few videos, a few still shots. So they have everything and they have the best experts and the best technology in the world to enhance what we're looking at and also what is what hasn't been released yet. And they're trying to put that information together. Whether there is scenes of the person without the backpack and then other ones with them, they would know that by their timeline. We don't have these any sort of chronological order of which we are aware. aware. The only thing I want to add in here real quick, I tried to get in earlier, and I think I mentioned it very quickly yesterday, is when I started on the Unabomb Task Force, there was a subunit, a subsquad that thought, you know, the Zodiac killer was now the Unabomb.

2:04:36One of my first rendered opinions as a new profiler there, no, not connected, not connected at all. But I've always had a fascination in the Zodiac case. I did not work it at all. Well, I wonder if this guy is some kind of a Zodiac aficionado in that how he dresses, even how he carries the gun. There are pictures of Zodiac sketches, I should say, not pictures, composite type sketches from surviving victims in which he is sort of armed up with a hoodie such as that he has some kind of a symbol on the front, maybe the Zodiac symbol, and he carries guns and other weapons on the side of them, some kind of a backpack, I believe, over the years I've seen it.

2:05:12So again, this may or may not solve the case. But if there's anyone out there, that's interesting, though, did so I can't get all my serial killers straight, but was Zodiac? What was his favorite? Like, what was his M.O.? Late 60s, San Francisco area, the Bay Area, he would find couples and an individual woman took cards over and brutally killed them and raped them, at least some of them. And he was always dressed head to toe in a bizarre, you know, a hoodie or a mask, I should say, with just holes in it with a symbol on at least one of the descriptions. Other witnesses, well, there were other witnesses that didn't survive.

2:05:52So they're victims, of course. And so, and of course, if anyone cuts and edits what we're talking about here, I'm not saying this is the Zodiac or any way, shape or form. But as a someone, there's a lot of people, I get emails all the time that, hey, what do you think about this part of the Zodiac case? And I'll make none of them. I may put a few responses out there. I just can't rule out that this guy has some sort of an interest in that. Maybe that's how he could have set himself up, hanging the gun the way he did. There's at least one picture. My team found the sketch. There's at least one picture of him, obviously a hood.

2:06:26Incredibly scary. But there's other pictures or descriptions where there was guns at the side, big knives, et cetera. And he was ready to go. And I thought even some kind of a backpack, at least a description, And it's just something to keep in mind that this guy may have had some interest. So, again, all the descriptors we gave early on for behavioral issues with this guy, description and post pre offense, post offense. Hey, the guy happens to have talked about the Zodiac killer in the past or really likes that movie from 2006 or 2007. Call the FBI. Well, that's that's a great point. The other case that we've been talking about here and there, and I know, James, you've done lots of work in this field, is the Rebecca Schaefer case.

2:07:12And, you know, she was a celebrity in Los Angeles. She was very young. I think she was 19 years old. She was an aspiring star. She was starring in My Sister Sam underneath Pam Dauber, who was the older sister. And we actually, we forgot completely that our pal Marsha Clark of OJ Simpson prosecution fame was the prosecutor on this case. But what happened to Rebecca Schaefer in 1991 was, she was 21, was a man named Robert Bardo, who was obsessed. He was an erotomaniac, wrote her a series of letters. She wrote a generic thank you for your interest card back. Marsha writes in her book, quote, it was enough to make the twisted son of a bitch think they had made some kind of connection.

2:07:58Bardo hired a private investigator who gave him Rebecca's address. He showed up at her apartment with a bag containing copies of his letters to her, a paperback of the catcher in the rye and her publicity photo and a gun. When he rang her doorbell, Rebecca answered it herself. She shook his hand, but then shut the door on him. which is just, this is right up Gavin DeBecker's. I know you worked with him for years, James, but we ignore the gift of fear. Like so many women do it. We ignore the gift of fear. She shook his hand and shut the door on him, but she opened it again because he went to a nearby restaurant.

2:08:35He went into a men's restroom to load the last chamber in his handgun. And then he returned to her apartment. When she came to answer the buzzer, he gestured that he wanted to give her something. So she sees him again, the man she was so afraid of, she shut the door on him. And she opened the door and he shot her point blank through the heart. This case, of course, haunts any public figure because you have so little chance of protecting yourself. And I just, as somebody, we all revert to our priors. Of course, whenever you're trying to solve something, when you're in my role, you guys are smart enough not to do that.

2:09:13But like in news, we revert to our priors a lot. And from the beginning, I have wondered whether this is a Robert Bardo type situation. Somebody possibly obsessed with Savannah, you can't get to her. Like, I know where Savannah lives. You cannot get to her. Thank God. But you can get to the soft target, as Will was saying earlier, James, of her mom. And maybe that's enough for you. Yeah, I mean, that's a road that we go down a lot. I don't know Savannah. I don't know her background with regards to, you know, I'm sure she's got stalkers. I'm sure she's got people who are obsessed with her. Certainly, I hope she's sharing that information, not only her security team sharing it with the FBI, the people working this case.

2:10:00There's probably some specific people that they have identified what we call pursuers. Hopefully, they've turned that over to the FBI, and hopefully they're looking into those individuals and their whereabouts, and hopefully they have some type of alibi for their where being on where they were on the first. But certainly there's a concern there, and that's one of the avenues. The challenge of this case is we're just sitting here for an hour. We've come up with like eight different avenues, and the investigators, they're all pursuing it. And like you were talking about a needle in a haystack with Google or the searches of the area, this is going to continue.

2:10:38you every time we get a phone call, they're going to go down another trail. And certainly you can't discount the people who wanted to get to Savannah, saw she had visible security, and they just moved to a family member who, and don't forget, someone that she clearly had a positive relationship with. Notice it was her mom. They didn't grab the sister. They didn't grab her brother, right? So maybe they saw these, you know, as you're publishing these photos of her and her mother, that looks like a very good relationship. I don't know anything about it, but it looks from the outside, like a good, healthy relationship.

2:11:10And maybe these, you know, this crazy guy's like, yeah, I can't get to her, but I sure as hell can go get to the mom. That could definitely, I would never rule something like that out for sure. Cause the Bardo case, you know, and there's so many like that. That's, that's how it happens. That target transference. And you never, you know, you'd never know, like in the Bardo case, he showed up with his letters. He, I guess he kept copies of his letters and he showed up with those letters, which are meaningful to him. I've told the audience before, I had my own quote, erotomaniac stalker. It was a very serious situation.

2:11:42He wound up going away for 10 years for what he did. And one of the things he did was he left letters for me all around Washington, DC, like in National Cathedral and other at the CIA, like stacks of letters for me, which then he would contact me and say like, I hid the letters for you. Like, this is where you should find them. Stuff like that, which is very bizarre. But this is communication that I was allegedly quote, receiving from him that I had no idea about. And so if this were happening to Savannah, she might not even know. I do know for a fact she's had at least one serious stalker. And I just think like, you know, we have to be open-minded to that because when I see this guy, I don't think he's a cartel member.

2:12:27He doesn't project competent or vicious or efficient enough for that. It doesn't look like a professional hitman. He doesn't look military to me. But if you ask me, could it be the erotomaniac lane? Yes, that yes. And also, I'm not going to lie, if you ask me, could it be murder for hire type of loser that you see in some of these cases? Yes. right? Like murder for hire guys are not James Bond imitations. They tend to be like, I'm sorry, forgive me, like fat losers who need money and have some sort of criminal history. And so they say yes when nobody else would, and then show up like a doofus, not understanding how to get the ring camera out of there.

2:13:13But they don't really give a damn because they got the mask on. There's one thing they got to do and they're going to get a$5 ,000 check out of this. So that's that. Am I right? Oh, yeah. Cash more than check, but yeah. I'd jump in on your theory, Megan, I think, which is quite solid. I mean, in terms of a stalker or a fixated person, as we would call them, I've worked a number of these cases. And certainly, this may also explain why the FBI are also continuing their inquiries with Savannah's sister. So there's a possibility. I've had cases where fixated people have actually approached fellow family members because they can't get to their primary fixation.

2:13:52So there's always a possibility that maybe the FBI are visiting with the sister to try and gather information from them or from neighbors, associates, colleagues, to see whether they'd been approached by anybody who had a fixation on Savannah. That's a great question. And I will tell you, when I was dealing with that stalker, one of the first things the security teams told me was make sure you go to your neighbors, all of your neighbors and tell them, I, I, I mean, I do actually have brothers, but like to tell them, no, one's going to come looking for me from my family. If anybody comes looking for me saying they're related to me, you don't know me.

2:14:32You have no idea where I am, who I am, like give no information out because they did say in a lot of these cases, they'll go to the neighbors around you, to friends. They'll pretend that they know you and try to extract information out. And so again, it may just be me reverting to my priors, but it's been a serious worry of mine from the start. You have to learn from that though, Megan. You learned from it, which is what you have to do when something like this happens to you. What you're doing is good. And it's trusting your gut now. Your gut has changed and you're now in a different place. For sure.

2:15:09And let's not forget the granddaddy of all these types of stalker cases, John Hinckley tried to assassinate President Reagan to get in better graces with Jodie Foster because he somehow couldn't get close to her. In my fourth book, A Journey to the Center of Mind Before, I actually have a chapter in there about how I met Ann Coulter. She had a crazy stalker going after her. I actually agreed to meet the guy in Washington, D.C. some time off. I'm actually sort of negotiating with the stalker about how to sort of alleviate the problem for Anne. And since then, I've been in touch with Anne. She's had some other problems over the years.

2:15:46But this guy was the worst. And he was going through all kinds of means. Luckily, never anything physical against her. But these guys are out there. And Megan, I think one of the first words I used with you, I think it was Tuesday a week ago, victimology. And it's not just Nancy Guthrie's, of course. It extends to the family too, including Savannah, and she would be the big one. She's the one with the name and the celebrity status. And that would be every single email she's received for the last year or two. Start with that and go backwards if you have to. But it certainly could be someone who sits at the TV screen.

2:16:20It's one thing about people like weather women on TV. We get a lot of those folks. I was in New York, FBI in New York, a retired NYPD lieutenant who I knew. He was in charge of security. Every single NBC correspondent had some kind of threat against them, usually women. And I'd have to go out and send leads around the country, interview people myself. And there are some strange people. You look into the camera and talk, which quite frankly, Megan, you are now, you do every day. People can sit back and just watch you and perceive that you're talking to them. You're talking to them personally. And that's where their mind starts going.

2:16:56The erotomania it kicks in. Women do it, have it too, usually with men victims, but also in most cases, it's men with women victims. And sometimes - The stalker I know of in Savannah's case is a female. It happens. It happens. Let me, if I could - Fitz, I know you got to run. Thank you so much for your expertise. Let's keep the discussion going. I can see both James and Will had something to say. Yeah, I would be remiss if I didn't at least say this before we cut our time together, But two things. One is, you know, the van that was mentioned earlier in the reporting was that, you know, some of the neighbors saw a white van, what we would refer to as a creeper van in and around her home.

2:17:38OK, that's completely, you know, but as soon as I heard that, I'm like, yep. And because what we call that preoperational surveillance, we we you know, you're doing surveillance of the target prior to the operation. It's very, very common. It's in what we call the attack cycle. It's part of this cycle. Once they've identified who they're going to target, they do some type of preoperational surveillance. And unfortunately, what happens is like in this case, someone calls it in and law enforcement will say something. And I don't know what they did on this thing, by the way. I haven't heard a word with regards to what they did.

2:18:09They identified a driver if they ran for wants or warrants or anything. But usually what I find, because I call 911 a lot about the same type of thing, suspicious vehicles. And I hear things from police officers like, well, it's not a threat. There's not a crime. I'm, you know, there's nothing to it, yada, yada. Well, I don't ever do that, right? When I see a van, a creeper van in my neighborhood, I circle back and I get the license plate, right? And I'll call 911. And if they come or they don't come, I don't really care because I'm going to have a plan, right? I don't just create. And what people do is they create an alibi.

2:18:39They'll create a story and they'll say, oh, it's not a big deal. It's just the white van. Somebody's working on the neighbor's house, even though there's no placards on the van to suggest it's a plumbing company or an electrical company or anything like that. But they'll make some story, like you were talking about trying to be nice or any of that stuff. Don't do that, especially if you're a targeted individual or you're related to someone who's being targeted. The second thing is everyone talks about threats, threats, threats, threats, threats. It's not the threats that get people. John Hinckley never threatened Ronald Reagan.

2:19:11It's they show up. They keep coming. They inappropriately pursue. They keep writing emails and phone calls. They don't say, I'm going to kill you. OK, it's just they keep coming. That's what we're concerned about. Yeah, the threat is concerning. The spoken threat causes anxiety. But that's not what it is. That's not what's moving the needle. OK, it's the inappropriate nature and their inability to let go. That's what we're that's what we should be focused on. Sorry. This is so so eerie because I will tell you that this stalker in my life and I really haven't talked about it much because, you know, there's always a chance he's going to watch this.

2:19:48and I don't want to reignite anything. You know, it's just, it's a creepy, dangerous topic. But I was receiving all these, you know, notes and emails and letters. And then one day I exited the White House where I'd been on the lawn. I was just a babe in the woods reporter. I hadn't, I was, I wasn't controversial at all. Like I was just starting at Fox News. Nobody even knew who I was for the most part. but I was, I walked out of the white house front gate off of the lawn from my reporting. And he was there and he lived in another state. He had driven something like 17 hours, 14, I don't know how many and introduced himself.

2:20:31Like he didn't introduce himself. He was like, it would be as if I'm not going to say his name, but it would be as if I came up to you, Maureen. And I was like, Maureen, it's me, Megan. Like he said it like that. Like, of course you know me. And I, and he was like confused by my confused face because he came over so familiar and was like, hey, it's me. And he said his name and it took me a second. And I will say, rather than doing what I should have done, and it's not like I was some nincompoop at the time, I'd been practicing law for 10 years. I was now a journalist. Just turning around and asking the Secret Service to let me back in one of the most secure facilities in America.

2:21:06Wow. I ran like a dope. I ran. I was panicked. I felt the water rising. And he chased me. It was genuinely scary. But my point is simply, if you are an erotomaniac, you will show up inappropriately at places you don't belong. You will be totally calm about it. You think it's wanted. You will get messages from the one you're obsessed with through their hand gestures on TV. That's what he used to get from me. If I brought my hand up here, he would say, I know that means this. He sent me a whole chart. Like, I know these finger motions mean this and that means that. So like, it is very possible this guy could have been sitting at home watching Savannah Guthrie on the Today Show every day, quote, communicating with her in a way she wasn't actually, but in his mind she was.

2:21:57And thinking somehow this is what she wanted. This was blessed by her. And what Fitz said at the end there is very true. I have been told this many times that it happens more frequently with news people than even real celebrities like actors because we do look right into the lens and the actors don't but hey go ahead yeah i know i was just gonna say i mean it's certainly of all the cases where i've looked after newscasters and presenters they are deemed to be more approachable because of exactly that point you make megan you're looking directly into the camera you're not looking off camera interacting with other personalities you're talking directly to the viewer and of the fixated people that i've dealt with uh they do have this entire language that they believe their understanding of those communications albeit however inert they may be that those gestures by you are communicating some kind of connectivity with them now the problem is you can't get past that kind of uh logic or that sort of rationale that someone's put themselves into.

2:23:03But there is also a rationale that they can't reason somebody out of this fixation. No, not at all. Sorry. Yeah, not at all. James's point about the advanced reconnaissance or the preoperational surveillance is so valid. The one thing which obviously is very scary and was scary for you, Megan, you running off, I think, other than asking the Secret Service to let you back in was the best other action you could have taken you know you could have frozen on the spot and and being rendered you know immobile so the fact that you did run off was probably a good thing however this advanced reconnaissance is to try and ascertain and determine what we would call a pattern of life we're all creatures of routine we all generally wake up between five and ten minutes at the same time every morning during the working week we'll go to the same probably three or four restaurants in our local area, even though we may have a choice of 20 or 30.

2:23:55We'll go to the gym at the same time. And that's what the attacker, abductor or kidnapper is going to be looking for, so that they can find that ideal moment where they can then strike with whatever motive that they may have. So they will also extend that to trying to find a location where you are less likely to be part of that pattern of life. So you coming out of the White House, I would imagine you'd either tweeted or there'd be some press coverage or some advance notice that you're going to be attending and he knew he could turn up and see you there it was a brave gesture which shows the lack of sanity a brave gesture however to confront you right in front of the white house with secret service nearby and then think about it even after he saw me run and he had to chase me he continued with the letters that were in love that he you know nothing nothing registered like They don't perceive communication saying no the way a normal person does.

2:24:54Yeah, that's right. And that's actually something that Gavin DeBecker has written about as well, which is there's a big debate in the stalking community about—not stalkers, but the victims of stalkers and the men and women who protect the targets of a stalker. whether you even give them an initial no, whether you give them the hard no, stay away from me, I don't want you, or whether you just do zero, because even the no is perceived as a yes, you know, in the same way the hand gesture is a yes, and the running away is a yes, and so it's like Savannah could very well have one of these. Again, the woman I know about is a woman, and by the way, she's African-American, so she's not, it's definitely not, if this person we're looking at is involved in any way.

2:25:43It's not the same person. Your point on the note, Megan, just jumping in there very quickly, is absolutely right in terms of not giving a response. It's much like if you're being harassed or intimidated online. The golden rule is never to respond because you're giving the threat or you're giving the troll or the abuser oxygen for for them and some confirmation of connectivity with you by giving no response whatsoever, you are starving them of that oxygen of being able to engage with you because they're looking for a reaction. I would just jump in on that, Megan, that, you know, Gavin calls it engage and enrage.

2:26:20So if you engage with them, you enrage them. So you don't engage. You try to get them to detach and move away. The reason people do want you to use the no is for the legal part of it. So you can go to a court and say, I did set a boundary. I did tell him the communication was unwanted and we did tell him no, yada, yada. But we could argue that all day. And I think Gavin's probably correct. You just don't engage with the people like Will's talking about. But I did want to real quick double back on your story, because when you said the guy traveled to D.C. from a thousand miles away, Maureen and I both were like immediately popping on that.

2:26:56because targeted travel is much more concerning than the guy writing a letter saying, I'm going to kill you. The person that travels from a thousand miles away, gets on an airplane to come to see you. That is very, very concerning. And lastly, I just got to make sure I say this to you. You are not a dope. Don't say that. You ran. You did something. And I tell people all the time, flight is fight. You are fighting for your own life by running away. So don't ever do that yourself and second guess yourself and say, oh, I did the wrong thing. The hell you did. You did the right thing. You said, I want to get away from this.

2:27:29I'm going to get away from it right now. And you did it. So good for you. Don't, don't do that. Oh, thank you. Thank you for saying that. It was a genuinely traumatic experience to happen, you know, so young in my career. And I think a lot of public figures have had it. And that's why, like, I look at this and I'm like, I don't, it, this could have been somebody who wasn't known at all to Savannah, who just had this obsession from afar, like Robert Bardo, maybe just a letter or whatever, an email, you get enough of them in his public, you don't even pay attention to them, who then may have been set off by something, maybe some perceived rejection, some perceived slight that she didn't, she has no idea about, set him off to where he decided he needed to escalate it or he was going to get her attention one way or another.

2:28:18And maybe it's all about causing the suffering, enjoying watching the tearful videos that have come out. That's why there's no ransom demand. It's not about relieving any of the pain. It's just about causing it. Because the thing I can't get past, Maureen, is the odds of some stranger criminal just happening to stumble upon Savannah Guthrie's mother seem infinitesimal. I just, I don't, I feel like this is either a family member or it's somebody that, that it's about Savannah. It's one of those two things in my mind. Well, if we kind of reverse engineer it, would, would we, would this case even be here if Savannah weren't as popular and lovely as she is.

2:29:10I don't know. I tend to agree with you, but we won't know until this whole thing is over. But to your point on stalking, I know so, so many women that have been stalked that have no and had no public persona. And I'm talking about going all the way back to before there even was the term stalking for women and before people even took it seriously. And they don't in most jurisdictions still. Yeah. Well, and I don't know about you guys, but my experience is that a lot of times they don't know. You may not even know about the stalking that's going on or the inappropriate letters. I mean, I'm friends with a judge out of Texas who was shot in a driveway and she never even knew the guy that did it because he showed up in her court and that he had taken some type of offense and he got mad and held a grievance.

2:30:06Well, she didn't even know he was out and she didn't know that he was threatening to hurt her because the police never told her. And so she actually saw the guy jogging in front of her house. She didn't, she thought it was odd, but no one from law enforcement had told her, Hey, this guy, you know, told his girlfriend, he's going to kill you. And sure enough, the guy did, he tried to kill her. And so a lot of times you may not even know. So what I mean is sometimes your security people, maybe even the studio and her case, maybe they don't even tell her about some of these things. Yeah. I mean, that's frankly how, even in my own life, like they only raise it to my attention if it's, you know, if it's, if it deserves to, because you can't live your life being told of every threat.

2:30:45It's just too, it's too, too much of a crazy thing. But we were talking about Gavin a bit since you worked with him, James, but in Gavin's book, I believe this is where I got this from, The Gift of Fear. He writes about this story and there's, I can't remember whether it was his book or an online forum on stalking, but I've definitely read this story about a woman who wrestled with whether or not to get a restraining order against the stalker. And she decided to get it. And they found her later that day or the next day with the restraining order stabbed through her heart. And so like any sort of perceived rejection, you know, which is basically what that stalker was responding to, can escalate the behavior of the stalker to a truly dangerous level.

2:31:31And so I just keep looking at you, you, thank God you, you really can't get to Savannah like that, even on the entrance and exit to NBC. And I won't go through the security protocols, but I worked there for almost two years. She's protected. And obviously she's, she knows how to hide her home address and all that stuff. But the mother, I haven't looked it up, but I'm sure she was a sitting duck down there. I'm sure it was a much different story. And so if there were a precipitating event of any kind, again, and keep in mind, we're talking about a lunatic who perceives the hand motions as a rejection or a slight, suddenly the mother's gone.

2:32:07I just think like we've been so obsessed with, yes, we're looking at the brother because of the Ashley tip. We don't know whether it's real. And we're looking at personnel who worked on her lawn because you got to. And she's so close to Mexico and they do have very bad kidnapping down there and bad guys who will do that kind of thing with a rich family, all that. And that's all still on the table. But this is a lane I just I don't hear talked about that much, James. And so the precipitating event, we have no idea what it may have been, but it's it's very possible. The whole goal was to hurt Savannah Guthrie.

2:32:39Yeah, I certainly like that. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, go ahead. Go ahead, James. Go ahead. Well, I certainly like your theory, Megan, better than this cartel thing. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I work those guys. I don't know. What do they benefit from that? You know, they're in a business. What do they benefit from hurting this old lady? I mean, I don't see it. It doesn't make it. It sounds interesting. It gets people excited. Oh, yes, in close proximity to Mexico. But, you know, a lot of people live there every day and they're not kidnapped. And the cartel is in a business. I don't see how this is a business for them.

2:33:09And, you know, it's not like she's going to be sold into sex slavery or something like that. You know, it just what? I'm with you. That's right. I really think that, you know, it is going to be tied back to something with regards to a family member, an acquaintance and or her fame. I just that's where I would be leaning if I was an investigator right now, especially without the proof of light. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, the one thing I find really confusing is the fact that if it was just a direct or indirect attack at Savannah by targeting the mother, who is the path of least resistance, much easier to get to.

2:33:48This wouldn't have necessarily, I would have thought, resulted in an abduction. The whole abduction thing is really the most confusing factor here as to why she was actually removed from that location. If it was a retribution of some nature, then I would have thought she would have been assaulted, possibly killed, obviously in her own home. But the fact that she's missing, and if she was taken away from the scene to be murdered or to be hurt in some way. And then again, it would be a question of where would the body be dumped? And that would no doubt would have fallen within the plan of the attacker before they undertook it.

2:34:23So in the same way as assassins will. So it's this abduction. Wait, I want to keep talking about this. We have to say about it, SiriusXM. We'll continue it on Pod and YouTube. Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on SiriusXM. It's called the Megan Kelly Channel and it is where you will hear the truth Unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies. Along with The Megyn Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news.

2:34:56Only on The Megyn Kelly Channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

2:35:06We're back now with our FBI and security experts. Will, you were right in the middle of the point where we had to end, because the Sirius XM show was ending. Could you pick it back up? Yes, I'll try my best, Megan. I mean, fundamentally, there are so many disjoints on this whole case, which is really surprising me. And it is kind of baffling me. And it is that there are certain aspects which are professional, like the advanced reconnaissance. And again, I think Kash Patel is holding back an awful lot of information. There's probably very good reasons for it. But I think it's querying the pitch somewhat.

2:35:37And I think it's confusing, certainly analysts like ourselves who are trying to break it down and understand um the the if you like the series of actions the series of of of elements that have taken place in this whole case but it's it's the big question is of cases where i've seen assassinations or assassination attempts and i've been involved in obviously protecting against um and certainly in cases where there's retribution attacks or revenge attacks of some nature they will look for the best location to carry that out And one thing that really has confused me is the removal, obviously, of Nancy from that location and her disappearance.

2:36:17And if it was to kill her, then there's every good chance they would have disposed of her body or put it in a location. And certainly if it was a message that they were trying to send to Savannah, they would want her to know what has actually happened. So I think at the moment, we were talking in the break just now, me and your other guests, about the ransom demands. And at the moment, there is just no legitimate, as I can see, ransom demand that has been made that could be evidenced against proof of life. So I've worked on cases where there's been kidnappings and dozens of different individuals have jumped out.

2:36:54Even legitimate groups and terrorists and militia within certain countries have jumped out claiming responsibility. I remember there was one case in Papua New Guinea that I worked on and 110 different groups claimed that they were holding the hostages. And the only way you can find out is either by proof of life or regrettably proof of death. Hmm. We've been talking about this proof of life thing and the hostage or the ransom notes, because there was some confusion about whether maybe the second note did have some sort of proof of life in it and the family may have been responding to it. And now this yesterday, there were reports that there was a$6 million transfer of Bitcoin.

2:37:38It's just a$6 million dollar transfer of Bitcoin. We have no idea whether it's into the account of whomever made that first demand. I don't know. It's strange that just like there's a Bitcoin market and I guess you can see who's moving Bitcoin and how much of it they're moving. But this is what they're saying, that somebody moved six million dollars worth of Bitcoin yesterday and there's no confirmation about who it was or whether it was into the account of the person who wrote the first note. And Harvey Levin wouldn't specify. He said, I'm not comfortable talking about it, which was also kind of ominous.

2:38:16Yeah, right. Understandable, but also ominous. Like, I don't know. I guess I kind of would think that if it weren't into that account, he'd say no. But maybe not, because maybe the police, the FBI did deposit, as the local station said, $300 into the Bitcoin account. And he does not want to confirm that it wasn't$6 million because they're trying to, as we discussed in the first hour, quote, tickle the wire. They're trying to fool the perpetrator or whoever wrote the note into believing, oh my God, the$6 million might be in there. I'm going to go check. So he doesn't want to be all over the news saying it's not, it's not$6 million.

2:38:53Trust me, I've seen what's been transferred. It's only$300. bucks. So that could all be happening. But as for whether there was proof of life in the second note, which Harvey did not receive, only one local Tucson television affiliate received it. And they did not get explicit about what was in or not in it. But their sister television station, Arizona Family, did. And we pulled the soundbite. We do have it now. Let's play it. Let's check in with our true crime correspondent, Brianna Whitney, live for us in Tucson to walk us through what we are able to reveal about this latest note that came into the family.

2:39:30Yeah, and it's been in the last hour that we've learned we can reveal a little bit more. Jared, you mentioned it. There is no proof of life in this new note, but there's also no additional ransom demand. And there's also no way for the kidnapper to communicate with the Guthrie family. There was no way for the Guthrie's to reach back out. So those are three new details we're able to report at this hour, but it is exceptionally concerning when you know that we are still searching for 84 year old Nancy Guthrie. So at no point that we know of was their proof of life at all to the family. And therefore we have no reason to believe they would pay$6 million to these people based on proof.

2:40:13We also don't know about them allegedly having Nancy because they could cite to her white Apple watch and possibly its placement in the home where it was in her home and a broken floodlight on the exterior of the home, which look, it's better than nothing to have that. But we've been making the point here all week. It's not great. I mean, if I have somebody and I want to prove to their family members, I have them. There are way more intimate details I can offer about the person by talking to them if they're alive to prove I've got them and I know a lot about them that I should not know as a captor.

2:40:53And even if the person had died and you're trying to do the Exxon game of pretending that they're still alive, if I'm the actual abductor, I think I could do better than I know the placement of the Apple Watch in the home, which is something that's you could potentially see even if you're not the abductor i just i feel like the proof that they have her at least as it's been shared with us so far and there could be much better proof that we don't know about is very weak for making the case that the people who wrote the ransom notes are in fact the abductor or related to the abductor exactly they obviously got her dressed that she's she was wearing clothing when she left they could say your mom's wearing sketcher shoes and a nightgown by whatever maker.

2:41:38And, you know, or if she's alive, you could ask her all these questions. What did you give Savannah for her 16th birthday? Things that other people aren't going to know. So you could at least have an inventory moving forward. But absolutely none of that. This is all perplexing. It doesn't make any sense. And for those of us that spent our decades in law enforcement and in security, we're logic-driven thinkers. And so it's driving people mad. I think it's important. Sorry, Jase. I was just going to say, I think that there are a couple of really interesting observations that I'd like to pop in there.

2:42:18Firstly, it was the amount,$6 million. now if it's a professional group a few years ago ransoms would be settled by paying bitcoin particularly if it was in another country where the access to cash would have been difficult or to carry the cash is going to be difficult and unlike in the movies carrying six million in hundred dollar bills actually weighs a heck of a lot so trying to transport it or move it to a location is very difficult and particularly for the the drop-off point or the pickup point of where you're going to leave it, whether it be on a thumb drive or whatever. The 6 million, I'm really not that surprised by that figure, because a lot of them, and I'm not revealing any state secrets here, a lot of K &R insurance policies will go to approximately about 5 million, 5 million to about 10 million dollars, if it's in a high risk or conflict zone.

2:43:08And the other issue to really follow on what Maureen was saying, which was absolutely bang on in my estimation, which was this issue about asking questions these are questions which can't be easily uh answered through research online could be a picture on facebook or it could be some background information you do through open source so it could be for example megan what was the name of your family pet when you were a small child your first family pet it'll be information that people can't find very easy and will only be within your intimate circles sorry james no you're fine brother i was going to say, you know, Megan, that all of this is a distraction.

2:43:44And not only is it a distraction from the investigation, it causes, you know, a lot of anxiety for the family. The family's hearing that, oh, someone may have her and they want six million and then they get their hopes up and they get very excited. And, you know, then the investigators like us are in the back saying, well, we need proof of life. We need to make sure they're for real. And, you know, then the family finds out, well, that's not for real. And then they're let down. And, you know, it's this constant roller coaster. And you remember, there's only so many investigators. So there's, this is a distraction.

2:44:14It causes confusion. It causes false hopes. I certainly hope that these people were found and prosecuted, right, for doing these things. If it turns out, like we've been talking about, that it's fraudulent, because that's very, you know, that's a disgusting person that would take advantage of a family in a situation like this, but it's out there and it happens. But, you know, for me, if I'm with this family, I'm like, look, we're not paying anything until we We have some proof, exactly what Will's talking about, something that other people would not know. And there's a lot of ways we do that. And you just have to have the courage to say, look, this is nonsense.

2:44:48I know you're excited. I know you want it to be true, but they don't have her. And you've got to say goodbye, and you've got to move on. And you've got to have the courage to make that call. And that's very, very difficult when you've got a family looking you in the face. And you're going to have this talk. Guys like you have been saying all along that in prior kidnapping cases that you guys are familiar with, that the kidnappers are not shy about producing proof of life. They want you to know they really do have your person and they want you to pay up. It's not this like, I'm not going to, well, you can't have it or I'm not even going to mention it.

2:45:22We're not going to talk about that. It's like that doesn't dovetail at all with anybody's prior experiences. I did want to ask you this, Maureen, let me start with you on this as like our forensic analyst. The blood trail changed yesterday. Fox News's reporter released his own video. Brian Enten got pictures of the blood drops on Nancy's front porch right away because they released the house on Monday after the Sunday she went missing. So he just walked up there and filmed it. But apparently so did Fox News and their digital reporter. Ruiz is his last name. And he said, you know, I guess I'm going to release Michael.

2:46:04I'm going to release mine too. And so this is his tape and it does show blood. It shows some blue shirt out on the front walkway on a rock. And it also does show blood beyond. Now we're onto the sort of square terracotta tiles where we'd seen blood, thanks to Brian previously. But here now we're out on the more cement looking walkway and you can see blood. You can see more blood drops. Previously unknown to us, that wasn't in Brian's original reporting, which I, you tell me what you gleaned from that. It's to be expected. The only way, you know, if someone is actively bleeding, the only way for it to really stop in that short of a period of time, one would imagine, especially after some sort of traumatic injury like a punch or something along those lines would be to either put paper towels on her face or a t-shirt on her face did anyone turn that t-shirt over and see what's on the other side well good just at least until you get into the car you don't want a you don't want someone that's actively bleeding to get into your vehicle unless you have that tarp in the car or you know we We talked a lot about that backpack yesterday, Megan, and how full it was.

2:47:18And if we can all imagine being in an airport and people watching as we all do, you can see when someone has a backpack, you can see if there are heavy items at the bottom, bulging items on the side. But this one appeared to be very smooth, almost like a rolled up tarp or a rolled up blanket. Those are things that if, you know, in your quote unquote kidnap kit, you would want in your vehicle just so that you can put her in there and no trace evidence. One thing we've been discussing is how little your average perpetrator would want to drive around with an 84 year old in his backseat or, you know, in any part of the car, lest he'd be pulled over, lest a camera, a red light camera or a license plate reader see her.

2:48:06but back to the point about the white van james's favorite white van if you have one of those white vans they don't they don't have windows in the back that's one of the things that make them so creepy but they're for sure getting pulled over at 2 30 in the morning i mean what do you mean i mean if if you're driving a creepy van what we call a pedo van because it has no windows if you're driving one of those vans at 2 30 in the morning and a police officer pulls up next to you and you're looking shady, you know, they'll figure out a way to develop probable cause, your taillight, whatever else is out, you know, that's, thank God for the penal code to give you a probable cause to pull people over when you need to.

2:48:47Okay, so you're saying that the odds are against the white van being used in the crime, because the perp would understand it would make him look even more suspicious. No, I'm not saying I'm not saying that exactly. But I'm just saying, I'm saying it would up the ante a little bit more than just a regular four-door nondescript sedan but again my theory from the beginning has been this car did not travel on any of these uh major roads i think this car drove through side streets and and went to a location very close to nancy's home by the way guys this just um breaking there's there's somebody goes by jlr who's been on scene he's been doing great reporting um he's got an interesting criminal history of his own i have to tell you, he's been doing a wonderful job covering this case.

2:49:30And he reports right now, law enforcement is back at Annie Guthrie and Tommaso's home. Two men went inside their house. Now, I don't know what that is. It's just two men. Maybe they're getting something for the family that's been moved to another location because they're done with the media and so on. But what are they working on so hard right now? A lot, Megan. What is everybody hyper focused on now? What this person was wearing at that door. You know, the person in the videos from yesterday, that's what everybody's hyper-focused on. It doesn't mean it can't be related to something else in one of these silo investigations that James and I know are, you know, there's 25 or 30 of them happening right now.

2:50:11But back at that house again, here we go again. it's a lot it's a lot of focus on the house we're told we're not supposed to talk about right supposed to talk about the brother-in-law but we will until the police tell us he's cleared which they haven't go ahead james oh just you know she's right you know maureen's dead on the money it's backpack it's ski mask it's stupid holster that doesn't fit the semi-auto you know it's a big revolver what we call an uncle mike's holster that no one carries except amateurs and it's uh an ill-matching, you know, holster and a little pistol. It's the shoes. It's the jacket.

2:50:51It's those reflective straps on that backpack. That's what they're looking for. I'm telling you, those lips in that face mask look very, very familiar to me. Meaning you think you know who it is? I think they look like the brother-in-laws. I pulled a couple of photos and sent them to your Allison. And I, you know, I'm not saying he did it, but I'm saying. But don't you think this guy looks too young to be the brother-in-law? The brother-in-law, I mean, I don't know how old he is. I know the sister-in-law is 56. I'm assuming she's married to somebody who's about her age. He's got a lot of gray in his beard.

2:51:30I think this guy's 50 because I think he lived in Italy till he was 30. And they've been here and together for 20 years. That's my understanding. He could be, you know. Yeah, that makes sense. His skin looks nice. I don't know. I'm just saying that in addition to the plethora of information that comes at us when we watch these videos, those lips and those eyes are very, very distinctive. They are not my husband's eyes. They are not my neighbor's eyes. They're not my friend's eyes. They're big, round, and the lips are always in this. This person is engaged in this crazy act right now. Not that photo.

2:52:11The one I'm thinking of is the one where he has his hand up toward the, where he's pounding his fist up in one direction. And then you can see the circular around his lips and they're just like this. Oh, I have it on my phone right here. Okay, we'll try to pull it up too. This one. Oops. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. So anybody else that works, you know, people make facial expressions when they're working, when they're doing physical things. Look at how calm that person looks. He's not, I don't think he's scared at all. He's very comfortable where he is. He's not worried about anybody walking up because he knows no one goes there at night.

2:53:00And I have to say, I mean, on the brother-in-law, Ashley has not stood down from her reporting that as of last Tuesday, he, quote, may be the prime suspect. She checked in with her. She calls him an impeccable law enforcement source. Ashley has been a crime reporter. Like, that's been her main beat now for years. And she, unlike most people who aren't, like, into true crime to the extent I am and some others are, I've followed her avidly. Like Ashley is solid on her crime reporting. And you have to understand, Jake Tapper was like these influencers online looking for clicks. That's not her at all.

2:53:35If she just wanted clicks, trust me, she would have been doing a lot of different crimes different ways. She's very meticulous. She does care. Doesn't mean she's right all the time. She could be wrong. Her source could be wrong. Or maybe he was, he quote, may have been the prime suspect last Tuesday, but isn't now. But she did check in with him every day last week. And she came on here at the end of the week and told me that he said to her, I don't I haven't changed at all. And it's when you're over the target. That's when they attack you. So that's where we were, at least as of last Friday. And here we are Tuesday.

2:54:06And we've had repeated visits back to their house and repeated canvassing of their neighbors and their backyard, which is not, we are told, the crime scene. It's not normal. It's miles away from the crime scene. Jim have you ever seen this before Well yeah When you're very concerned about a certain Individual being involved in something I've seen it This is their sixth trip Back yeah that's what I mean It's yeah You have to look at these families And you never know we Only see what you know people show us We don't know these families we don't know What's going on and Unfortunately you know that's where some Of these investigations will lead us you know so i'm saying that this is just my opinion i am not saying this person is guilty i have no inside information but the one thing i can tell you is the videos and images that came out yesterday did they dissuade me did they make me feel that there's no way it could be possible or does it say could be you know it didn't it didn't rule him out for me i mean i'll say this I don't think law enforcement is thinking that that's him right now because they went and arrested poor, what's his name?

2:55:22The DoorDash guy. They didn't arrest him, but they pulled him over and they interrogated him and they searched his house and they see, they didn't do that to Tomas. So like, I don't know. They seem to think that that's not Tomas because they thought this other poor DoorDash guy was the guy wearing the face mask. And by this point, they would have seen Tomas's cell phone. They would have seen probably his bank account. They, you know, they would have seen a lot about him. It doesn't mean they're not thinking. There was no cell phone. They would have picked it up. I'm sorry. Yeah. No, no, no. It's an interesting point.

2:55:59I mean, there's one consideration perhaps as to why they may be taking their time about this. And that is if there was an accomplice, if there was someone else who was actually working with him. So we'll be trying to identify that connection who that person is and sometimes uh you know again i don't have the same expertise as james and maureen but where i've seen this in in other cases is you allow like a terrorist to run to see who his network is and you basically put them under surveillance to see whether you can then join the dots to who may have actually come together so you know going back to your original theory megan which was someone was at the front trying to remove the ring doorbell and someone else was at the back, you know, there could be this accomplice that they're waiting out to try and identify.

2:56:44The thing here, Megan, I'm so sorry. You go ahead. No, no, you go ahead. It's just the only thing different here is that, you know, this is a kidnapping. We have a live body that we can't find. And that's what makes this so different. There has to be a, you know, this isn't a normal investigation where you can take your time, develop leads, get a good investigative strategy, do a good interview, a good custodial interview, you know, all of those things like that. The clock is ticking. We're 10 days now and we've got a human being that we don't have. And that to me has to ramp up everything. And it has to be on like warp drive with regards to, you know, kind of the ferocity of which they're, you know, approaching this thing because she, she's out there.

2:57:30All right. Hopefully she's still alive, but you know, that's what they're thinking about. And this thing's got to get moving. I mean, if I may add to what James was saying. They're releasing a statement today that, I'll give you the floor in one second, but they're releasing a statement today talking about the number of tips they've gotten. I don't know, the Pima County Sheriff's Department and the FBI continue to follow up on all leads. We thank the media and the public for the thousands of tips submitted. The Sheriff's Department alone has received nearly 18 ,000 calls since February 1st, more than 4 ,000 of those in the last 24 hours in the wake of those pictures that we've been talking about.

2:58:02Several hundred detectives and agents currently assigned to the case. You'll continue to see increased law enforcement activity throughout Pima County. We're working around the clock. We encourage anybody with actionable info to call 1-800-CALL-FBI or the Sheriff's Department. Then they go on to talk about the one adult male detained Tuesday. It's been released after speaking with investigators. This is part of a follow-on of incoming leads. As with any investigation, we do not release the identities of individuals who are detained and later released without charges. and then they say the FBI is handling all aspects related to any ransom notes or communications involving the Guthrie family.

2:58:36Inquiries about that should go there. No press briefing scheduled at this time, which I have to say is a little odd, you guys, because the press is their number one ally if they're just looking for a missing person. You know, if they're just trying to get the word out there, we are how they do it, which does suggest to me that they may suspect that Nancy's no longer with us, that this is switched over to a good old-fashioned crime case, possible murder case. And that's why they don't need to keep running out and updating us because now you're just revealing facts that will be brought to trial against the potential murderer.

2:59:12They don't really need our help anymore because there's not in their judgment an urgency. That's just a supposition. What do you think? I think that's right. And if you look at, yesterday was the greatest press conference. We received more information yesterday from Kash Patel in that post that he did with those images than we've received at all at any time throughout this entire investigation. So I'm happy with what we got yesterday. Yep. I mean, it does seem to me normally that would be accompanied by a presser where they're like, as you can see, the suspect is wearing a backpack. And they would say things like you guys have been saying, like, please look out for the following things.

2:59:50Look for somebody who behaves differently. Look for this. Look for that. But they're not, so they've gone more tight-lipped. All of this will become clear to us, I'm sure, at some point on why. But right now, we're 26 hours post the release of that explosive tape and those explosive pictures. And right now, maybe the magic tip is in the inbox right now, but no one is under arrest, and nor have they declared a person of interest. This has been another epic day. Maureen, I mean, I don't know, like, we just met a few days ago, but I feel like you're family to me now. We spent, I've seen you more than I've seen my husband over the past few days.

3:00:26Oh my gosh. My first day I'm supposed to be on for a 10 minute hit, two and a half hours, two hours and 45 minutes later with images that are like thumbnails in front of me that I'm analyzing. But I'd solve this crime. But I don't want anyone. We're really grateful. Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. But I don't want anyone to think that even though we're, you know, poking fun at this offender at the front door, not poking fun at him, but a little bit. I don't want to downplay how frightening that image must have been to Nancy. And it breaks my heart that she had to endure that, was even within a hundred miles of what she had to deal with.

3:01:11I just, all of us in law enforcement. I mean, you know, all my law enforcement partners and family members and everything, we have the heart of a lion when it comes to victims. And 30 years in law enforcement is 30 years as being a victim advocate. And we care more than we show half the time. But we try to be the, you know, St. Michael the Archangel when it comes to victims. And that's what we're all trying to do right now. By we, I mean them. I'm out of the game. But now I'm just a security expert like you two guys, like Will and James. No, I wouldn't say you're out of the game. I mean, I think that law enforcement probably getting a lot of good ideas from listening to discussions like this.

3:01:53I mean, by the brain trust that may no longer work in government for obvious reasons, but still has a lot of thoughts on what a good lead is and what things should be pursued and which shouldn't. All I can think of when I see that picture of the guy, like the close-up picture that you pointed out, Maureen, of the lips is... And Nancy Guthrie was a single woman and she'd been a single woman for 40 years. I think she was in her 40s when her husband died. And every single woman at a time or two when going to bed alone in their home has worried about the boogeyman. You know, you lock your doors, you lock your windows, you have a security system, and you put your trust in those things protecting you.

3:02:41But the boogeyman showed up in Nancy Guthrie's house, and we believe in her bedroom. And he definitely hurt her and took her. And the only piece we're missing now is what happened next and who. What happened next and who. We have hope. We have hope on the what happened next question that possibly he's got her, possibly she's still alive, notwithstanding the heart issues, the high blood pressure, the pacemaker, the no meds, the enormous stress, the bleeding, hoping against hope that it comes out the way we want. And you know what? Having been in news for many, many years, miracles do happen. Elizabeth Smart walked down that road one day and all of us who thought she was dead found out she wasn't.

3:03:28It can happen. we had a kidnapped little boy here in los angeles and we worked this case like there was no tomorrow and it was everybody the local police state police fbi you name it and we we had just come off a series of other kidnappings where three small children had in fact died during these kidnap attacks and it was just we were all in a bad place mentally because you know you can't prepare yourself for that. We found that kid alive after a week. Wow. So miracles happen. Yeah, I've had similar. That's right. Maybe, maybe the$6 million, maybe it did go to the bad guys. Maybe, maybe it's going to shake something loose.

3:04:13I mean, I know we're not hopeful, but you never know. Yeah, go ahead, Will. Yeah, no, I had similar. I had a case in Brazil where the two daughters of a businessman were taken, and they were very young. And one of the biggest concerns we always have is how professional the kidnappers are. If they're very professional and it's a transactional business, then it's pretty straightforward. But this was a bit of a Mickey Mouse group and a bit amateurish, to put it mildly. So the safeguarding and the welfare of the two girls was absolutely essential. And it was precarious, to put it mildly, because the contacts and contact preparation was just constant.

3:04:51But ultimately, the two cars came back. They were fine, you know, counseling, but in physical good condition, which was great. Well, I mean, we're all praying for that result here. And at a minimum, if we can get to who, we might be able to get to what happened and accountability. And then get to hammer time. Thank you, James. Well, exactly right. You too, Maureen. It's a pleasure. We'll see you, I'm sure, tomorrow. Thanks for having me. See you soon. Thank you. Thanks to all of you, too. Thanks for watching. Thanks to all of you on YouTube watching live today. And we will see tomorrow. We're going on a little trip with the fam for President's Day holiday.

3:05:28But we will be doing shows every day, of course. We're as into this story as you are. And I just feel like we're not going to rest until we know what's happened. So God bless you all. Thank you. Stay safe. We'll talk tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS. No agenda. and no fear.

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