Nancy Guthrie "Ransom" Note REVEALED, Savannah's Notable New Plea, Plus Nolan Wells Audio Misinformation Spreads | Ep. 1371

27:39We don't know what happened, so we can't accuse people of a crime that we don't know has been committed. That is basic. That is so, so basic. That's not to say that an investigation, as you and I have talked about the The last time I was on the show with you, the investigation from law enforcement and even an independent investigation, if that's what the family wants, needs to happen. But people are sitting here trying this homicide case in the public sphere, thinking that they know best and they're completely unrelated to the case. And it's just it's so dangerous for the people they're accusing.

28:13It's so dangerous if we do find out down the line something happened, that all of this will be in the public sphere, making it even more difficult to get an impartial jury. It's just so messy. People need to wait for the facts. Yeah, I want to play this tape. Brandon Tatum, police officer, now former, I assume, because he's running. He's now doing a podcast, but he has been all over this case. He's been doing a great job. and he obtained video of the boat, the to-be-toed boat after that dispatch call and he played it on his show. This is it. Video one. We're looking at it and you cannot see Nolan on this boat at all.

29:02You do not see a bunch of hugely panicked boys. You see a bunch of boys who look like Nolan did with their bathing suits on and no tops. And they're standing around looking at their boat. This is not exciting. It's not, I'm going to guess if someone had just committed a murder, it would look a little bit more chaotic on board that boat. But there's been zero evidence that Nolan was on that boat. And TMZ is reporting the same. He was not on the boat. Like it's knowable. There were witnesses who went to help the boat who were there when the boat got back to the mainland. literally no one is claiming other than these weird internet sleuths that Nolan was on that boat.

29:43He was back on the island. And we know that Nolan wound up dead. He watched his body washed up dead the Monday after that Saturday, 4th of July, back on the island, on Horn Island. He was not back on the mainland. So I don't know why they continue to beat this other than they're just throwing out empty speculation. And it's not even like they have any evidence like, oh, my gosh, there is one witness. saying those boys on boat number one did it. You know, it wouldn't make it a lot better, but it would make it a little better for all this rampant speculation to be out there. But there's nothing.

30:16There's literally nothing. These boys seem to have been Nolan's best friends. That he was on the boat. Yeah, exactly right. So now one other thing. So Brandon Tatum spoke with Warren Hudson. And we played some of that last week when you were on. Warren had said nobody touched Nolan's phone. Like all the guys put their phones on board the console of the boat. When that boat went back to the mainland, I guess they just forgot to give it to Nolan or he forgot to ask, but they did return to the mainland with Nolan's phone, among others. And now you have Benjamin Crump speaking out and talking about that statement, okay, by Warren Hudson to Brandon Tatum.

31:01Listen here, SOT 8. One of the key aspects early on here at Council has been Nolan's phone. Originally, why was it on the boat? Why was he separated from it? There are explanations about that. Was anything done to it? One of the friends responded to that suggestion. Let me play it for you and get your response. None of us had a reason to go through Nolan's phone. I mean, there's multiple phones on the boat. And the boat was having issues. Why would our concern be getting on Nolan's phone or something? I mean, I don't even know Nolan's password. None of my friends do. We had no reason ever to get on Nolan's phone and look at anything.

31:38I didn't touch Nolan's phone. None of us touched Nolan's phone until somebody took off the boat and put it in watch truck. And then no one touched it until we handed it back to the mom that was at my buddy's house. Counsel, does that square? Chris Cuomo, Nolan is dead. We're going to dot every I. We're going to cross every T. We're going to look under every rock. His mother called his phone repeatedly with no answer. That raises questions. That's all we want to get to is answers. If this was your child, Chris Cuomo, wouldn't you want to ask every question possible? So he refuses to deal with the facts as they're coming out from all of Nolan's friends who were with Nolan all that day.

32:32Like the fact that the mother called her son's phone and no one answered is somehow evidence that these guys murdered him. It's a big jump there. It's a pretty big jump. And based on everything that has been said, if the phone was on the boat, of course, no one's going to answer. If your mom's calling, you're not looking at your phone. Your phone is on the boat. Am I of the camp that thought it was strange that when he decided to stay on the island, because I do believe that he did, or at least the evidence that I have reported on has found that he did. I do find it strange that he didn't make it a point to get his phone and put it on another boat or bring it onto the shore.

33:06That just struck me as weird. I don't think it proves anything one way or the other. Aside from it's an unanswered question that I would like answered. But yeah, the refusal to admit, OK, sure, it's possible. that it's totally innocent as to why that phone was left on that boat. And it's perfectly possible that no one touched it. No one went into it. It's okay for Nolan Wells' mother to question everything around the death of her son. It's not okay to take those questions and use them to accuse people of crimes that you do not know have been committed. And the thing that keeps getting me back to a really frustrated point is that we can easily answer these questions by having the phone looked at through an investigation.

33:52And for the lack of transparency from an investigative standpoint, it's frustrating just because I'm a reporter and I want the answers. I want to know if someone has looked through the phone, you know, officially and said, yep, things were deleted. No, they weren't. We would be able to get those answers. They're easily discovered, gone through the proper channels, done properly, but sitting here and just spinning, you know, a frenzy of trying to answer these unanswerable questions with the information that we have is just making it so much more difficult for that mother to get an answer, to find out what happened to her son.

34:30Because at the end of the day, that is all she keeps saying is, I just want to know what happened. And that's all she wants. It seems like the Ben Crump, the internet, Nolan's friends, even people like us talking about it, We are discussing the, you know, what surrounds the situation. And this poor woman just wants to know what happened. We need the autopsy. I wish everyone would just take a breath and take a step back and stop trying to point fingers or guess the end story without the information. It's not going to satisfy them. It's not. It's not going to satisfy anybody. This is Salem. This is Salem witch hunt territory.

35:12The autopsy coming back, even if it says Nolan was completely intoxicated or maybe on something else, whatever, it's going to say they're not going to accept that. They're going to say somebody slipped it all to him. Somebody took advantage. Somebody hurt him anyway. These people are out for a witch. That's my concern. And the fact that they're bringing up Emmett Till and trying to compare this case to Emmett Till is so outrageous. You know, I mean, it's like these boys were Nolan's best friends. This was not an angry mob of white men grabbing a 14 year old boy for whistling at a white woman with the intention of harming him.

35:46They were his best friends. They were having a great time with Nolan. Nolan loved them and and they loved him. That's been the universal testimony there. There was another young man, one of the friends. His name is Trayston Shepard. He spoke with Brandon Tatum, too. And I don't know what his ethnic ethnicity is, but he looks mixed race or he doesn't look white. and he came out and said the following because he said ben crump doesn't know what he's talking about because he's suggesting that nolan was the only black kid on horn island or at all in their friend group and this guy tracet and shepherd is very much in their friend friend group first of all let me start with sat 11 here it's backstabbing from a sense of a community that i thought i had with my skin color and you know they stay so strong together and i'm supposed to be one of them but I come up and I speak and now I'm the person to blame now I'm not dark enough for them I'm not black enough for them yeah and then one more for you uh he's talking about Ben Crump here and the nightmare that he's injected into this investigation let's watch what's your take on a on Nolan being you know presented as like the only black kid in a group of all these white boys It blows my mind because it's our friend group is not a friend group that sees race.

37:07I never once thought, man, they look at me different. Man, I'm kind of an outcast to them. So with Crump punching this narrative, it's wrong. Do you think Benjamin Crump being involved in this case made it better or worse? To 100 ,000 times percent worse. We back each other. Everybody I've seen, we back each other. I think he's taking the grieving parents and manipulating and turning this and making it sound all bad, all bad, because nothing's like that at all. Yeah, I think so, too. So where does that leave us, Caitlin? Are we days from getting the toxicology report back? Are we weeks? Where do things stand?

37:57Typically, toxicology reports can come back in roughly about six weeks. So we are hoping that it will be out sooner than later. And all indications do seem to be that we're going to get to get those answers. I mean, the concern is you know, you mentioned it a minute ago. And this is my main concern, too, that no matter what the autopsy says, even if both autopsy, the independent, the state, one, say the exact same thing. If they say homicide, the people who think it was not a homicide will not be satisfied. If it says accidental drowning, the people who believe this poor boy was murdered are going to not accept it.

38:35So no matter what, this is not going to go away. This is not going to get better. This family is not going to be able to grieve his life however it shakes out. whatever the medical examiners say will not satisfy these two camps of people who are screaming, I want truth, so long as the truth fits the narrative that I believe. And I think that's a problem on either side. I have to challenge you on that. I have to challenge you on that. I do not think that there is a side demanding that there's no homicide finding. There's not. I think there's a side demanding that this be ruled a homicide. And then there's a side saying, let's just follow the facts where they lead.

39:15It's not like there's some angry mob of whites being like, there was no homicide, period. Right. I think there's a there's a group that's not completely driven by race essentialism like the Ben Crumps of the world that's saying, can we just wait? Let's wait to see what the toxicology report is. Let's let the investigation play out. That there's certainly a lot of people where I am and I think where you are, which is there is no proof that boat one left with Nolan, that Nolan does appear to have stayed behind on Horn Island and was alive and well when he did that, and that the boys who left on boat one clearly had nothing to do with Nolan's demise.

39:53What happened to Nolan on that island, whether it was self-inflicted or inflicted by somebody else, is still a mystery and must be investigated. And I will wait and hear from the investigators to tell me what they find. I'm sure they are interviewing Katie, the girl he allegedly was speaking to and any other girl he was talking to. And if there was any sort of a drug or alcohol component going on in Horn Island, I'm sure the cops are going to talk to every single person involved in that to find out. And if the toxicology report shows some level of intoxication by something, they're going to want to find out exactly who provided those materials and in what quantities.

40:29All of that is typically done in any investigation. It didn't happen in this investigation because of Ben Crump. It's what police do. And I think that the only side that won't accept the official word is the Ben Crumps of the world who have just determined that this has to have been a bunch of evil white people from Mississippi determined to kill their black friend for no reason whatsoever, because that serves his interests, his pocketbook and this bizarre agenda he's chosen to spend his life pursuing. The rest of us are sane people. I think the biggest issue for me is that two things can be true.

41:11All the evidence seems to point to the fact that he was not on that boat with these boys and they went back. That doesn't mean something nefarious didn't happen to him on the island. And if everyone's only looking at one narrative to be the answer to that, then that's a problem. If you're focusing on what it's the only possibility is that he was killed and he was killed by these people removes any other question that perhaps something happened on the island later. But we don't have those answers and we're not going to get them until we know how he died, when he died. That's the most important part to me is the when, because if the medical examiners come back and say that he died between 7 p.m.

41:49and 11 p.m., that completely removes the narrative that he could have possibly been on that boat. It does seem that there is one kind of nefarious, crazy narrative that's being pushed that these kids murdered him and, what, dumped his body. None of the evidence suggests that to me. It just doesn't. It really doesn't. But I'm not ready. It would show. Exactly. And I'm not ready to say that nothing bad happened to him. But I don't believe that. The medical examiners would know. They will. Hopefully. The medical examiners would be able to see evidence of interference with his body. They'd be able to see if he had been strangled.

42:23They'd know. if he'd been stabbed, if he'd been shot, if he'd been physically attacked by these guys, the medical examiner would know. In fact, my impression is there was relatively little damage done to his body in the ocean versus what we would normally expect to see. So we're not even dealing with a situation where he's covered in injuries that we now have to discern whether they were caused by the ocean or humans. I think the only way these people who are calling for the scalp of these young boys will will will challenge a homicide finding is if it's determined that somebody gave him some massive level of drugs or gave him like a pill that was laced with fentanyl and that person also turns out to be black then ben crump will not accept the homicide determination other than that he's it's homicide or bust and he'll never rest i mean he hasn't admitted he He was wrong about the Ferguson case, about the Jacob Blake case.

43:17He doesn't he doesn't admit when he's wrong. He gins up racial hatred and then quietly exits and cashes his check. And it's very unfortunate. Nolan's parents got swept up in his web. All right. We got to leave it at that today. Great job, Caitlin, as always. Thanks for joining us. We appreciate it. Coming up next, we turn to the latest in the mystery of Nancy Guthrie. as this week alone, we've gotten statements from Savannah, from Sheriff Nanos, and we have an update for you from the FBI as well. Don't go away. Is your dog a picky eater? It's stressful. Mine's not. He'll eat a printer cartridge.

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46:22Saturday marks six months since Nancy Guthrie went missing. Authorities believe the 84-year-old with a known heart condition was forcibly taken from her Tucson area home in the early hours of February 1st. On February 10th, the FBI released video and images of a masked man at the entrance of Nancy's home that were recovered from her Nest camera. It's amazing to me that that was 10 days after she was taken. When that broke, it felt like we'd been on this case for a month. It's incredible how much happened day to day to day in the early weeks of that investigation. Since that date, however, there have been no major breakthroughs in this case, at least that we know of, and we believe we know the latest.

47:05Pima County Sheriff Chris Nonno is releasing a statement today, however, that says the quote, investigation remains active and ongoing, but offering little else. He did say that presently a task force of investigators from the Pima County Sheriff's Department and the FBI remains committed to finding Nancy. And then he gets into what's happening with the DNA. And I will get into that in one second. He encouraged anyone with information about the case to call 1-800-CALL-FBI or 88-CRIME. This week, Sheriff Nanos sat for a 30-minute interview with 17-year-old Canadian journalist Wyatt Sharp, where he expressed hope that Nancy's still alive.

47:49Watch. It's a question that I'm asked often. And I guess my answer to you would simply be this. I understand why people would say she's dead. Yeah. I get that. But where's the benefit in my believing she's dead when there's no proof of her death in front of me? I understand the investigation, all the thoughts of her whereabouts. Everybody has a right to have an opinion and voice it. but as as the sheriff of pima county as the head of the law enforcement here in this community what's what is the benefit of the sheriff saying she's dead yeah if the family believes that there's hope that there's a that there's that there's some chance that she might still be with us why should i why should i crush that hope right there's new evidence to show it now nothing against this interviewer.

48:50I think he actually gets some big, big names. I'm pretty sure he's requesting me to go on there as well. But in any event, yeah, he has. He's refused the sheriff multiple requests by many journalists in America with very large platforms, including Brian Enten, who's been covering this case from the beginning and is a very straight shooter. He won't sit with him anymore. So why? Why is that? Because the people who have been covering this case very closely would ask very informed questions. Now, again, no slight to Wyatt at all, but there's a reason he's avoiding people like Enten, and he's refused us from the beginning as well.

49:30Nancy's daughter, who of course is Today Show host Savannah Guthrie, releasing a new video, seemingly out of the blue, on Instagram on Monday with a message to the person who took her mother. Watch. I'm coming on today with a very specific message. It has been months since our mom was taken from us. Our family is in agony. We are in a nightmare that will not end. Nothing about our situation has changed. We have done our part. We will never stop looking for her. we will always ache for her and feel that hole in our hearts

50:19the world can be a cruel and unforgiving place and I know that you have tried to do things the right way so I'm asking you begging you to do the right thing now make the right choice Help us find her. Tell us where to look for her. I truly believe it is never too late to do the right thing. Help us bring this situation to an end. For all of us, no matter where we've been and what we've done, I believe there is always a way home. Please make the right choice. hmm i just think about you seeing her face talking about this reminds you of the loss her her mother is gone we believe likely taken because of her you know just because of who she is and the money she has and the success in life and she's got to go on camera and beg some evil criminal stranger to return her mom to her or her mom's body.

51:32It's just, it's beyond belief. Think of being in that position where your mom is gone. And the only way to get her back is to beg some deranged stranger to tell you where she is or what he did with her body. I mean, it's just, I believe her that they are still in agony. I believe her that her children are feeling that. That's their Nana. They have no idea what happened to her, that Savannah has to live with the guilt, unfounded but guilt, that it was her celebrity or money success that led to her mother being taken. And we've got more for you on that today. It's just, I'm glad she came back and reminded people because as we all must do, we must do it mentally, emotionally, and otherwise, we move on.

52:28We have to move on with our lives. But she's there to remind us that Nancy Guthrie was taken on February 1st of this year, has not been found, and that someone out there knows exactly where she is. there are new clues that we can discuss today including the dna and what the sheriff said in that statement in a longer interview joining me now james fitzgerald co-host of cold red podcast and former fbi supervisory special agent and maureen o 'connell co-host of the podcast big city crime inside the red tape and a retired fbi special agent team great to see you thank you so much for being here. So I want to start with Sheriff Nanos talking here about the DNA.

53:16All right, he's been talking a lot, just not to anybody we recognize. But he came out and said, let's see, that there is so much DNA. He said there's so much DNA, which we'll play in one second from the Today Show. And then he talked about how they are submitting it to genetic genealogy and that is great news right he says uh hold on we have here sheriff nanos on the dna this is from that same interview the sharp exchange july 28th hold on a second where is that you guys uh him on with sharp about the dna yeah it's not 30 i think what you were asking is are we a familial type of dna not just our genetic didn't yeah are we doing something to find maybe it's the second cousin that yeah what they tell you is both we're doing all of it and that's really the labs are doing it all they're looking at genealogy but they're also looking at specific pieces of evidence that they're hoping to get enough kodai to say this is who we're linking it up.

54:30That's good news. I mean, I'm thrilled to know that they're actually, Maureen, examining genetic genealogy because we don't know what DNA exactly they're examining, but they must have taken DNA off of various places inside the home. And if they found at least a profile that matches itself, you know what I mean? They can tell, okay, this same person, we don't know who it was, could have been James Fitzgerald. But we can see that this same man was here at the bedpost, was here at the front doorknob, was here at the back door, but they don't have an ID. Now we're talking because from that, they really can do potentially genetic genealogy to find a name.

55:12It is great news. And it's news that we've been waiting for. And it also explains this long delay between the actual abduction, kidnapping, whatever we're calling it, to where we find ourselves right now. And this type of DNA, depending on what part of the world this person is from, can take six months or even longer. But they are, I think they're going to be getting there. And a lot of it also had to do with the fact that the DNA was a mixture of DNA, which, as we've learned, is very challenging to separate sometimes. He also said that the DNA is in labs across the country. Yes. Which is, I mean, that's good news.

55:56He says this in SoundBite 29. Let's listen. I think every day we're closer only because we have a lot of work ahead of us in terms of lab work, scientific work with DNA. working with not just our lab or the FBI lab, but labs across the country. All of these labs work together. They're sharing information. They're trying their best to find a way to get the science to work, to put together a variety of different pieces of DNA evidence to come up with a suspect. All right, Fitz, can you help us understand that? Because what does he mean? it's not just at Quantico and it's not just at that lab in Florida that we know he really likes and that has been verified as a good lab by people like you guys.

56:49But now labs across the country, he says, in terms of lab work, scientific work with DNA, labs across the country we're working with. And all of these labs work together, sharing information, trying their best to find a way to get the science to work? Well, he put an S on the word lab. So there's at least two, we don't know how many labs are being referenced here by by the sheriff. But some of these labs, they do have different levels of expertise, different levels of experience and, and, and very sort of niche or nuanced elements of the DNA analysis they go through. So maybe they felt for and they may be taking the same specimens of DNA, splitting them up.

57:35I mean, you know, some labs doing this and then sending them out to other labs and let them work at simultaneously. That doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me, but at least dividing up the different actual specimens of DNA samples and sending them to these different labs that can all handle this in somewhat different ways. Some may have an international focus that other labs don't have. I worked a case in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, a murder from 1975 as a profiler in the early 2000s. And just a few years ago, it was solved through familial DNA. At least one lab was involved here. And actually, they traced the guy, his family, back to a small town in Italy, where a lot of people then migrated into Lancaster, Pennsylvania over the years.

58:20And I was glad to be a part of that case. My profile wasn't far off from the guy who actually committed the murder. But these cases are amazing in what they can do. I grew up in Philly. The famous boy-in-the-box case was finally resolved about three years ago, thanks to familial DNA and genealogical DNA, all that related. So there may be different experts at different labs doing this. And even some of the people who do the actual familial work, they're not like DNA experts in and of themselves. They know the basic processes, how it works. What they're really good at is going through birth records and media records and other type of census factors.

58:55and that's how they come up with the second cousin, as was referenced earlier, or someone like that, and start working it through there, winnowing through all these people. And you have like a funny uncle or someone in your family that always kept to himself, maybe has a familiarity with Tucson, maybe here's a little bit heavy set and they put two and two together, they may get a hundred suspects that they can narrow it down to five. They've really accomplished something and hopefully that's where they're going, Megan. Can I add something? I'm now of the belief after having interviewed Cece Moore multiple times, the godmother of this practice, genetic genealogy, that, and she told me this, you can't have a serial killer anymore in 2026 because this practice is just too good at identifying the DNA.

59:39But I'm now of the belief that as long as a person leaves any DNA at a crime scene, they can catch you. They can catch you. But the question here is, did he? Because the sheriff just says, oh, we have tons of DNA. We have so much DNA. He said that on the Today Show. Like, so much DNA to sort through. In fact, we should play that. Can we play that soundbite? This is him on the Today Show. The Pima County sheriff, who's been heading the investigation, said the case is still very active. We have so much DNA to sort through. We have so much in terms of video evidence to look at. So I'm still positive that we're going to resolve this case.

1:00:22Okay, so that doesn't, it's not as promising necessarily as it sounds because I'm sure they do have tons of DNA from Nancy Guthrie's home. You know, if I went through your home or you went through my home, it'd be tons of different people's DNA. Whether the perpetrator left behind his DNA is a totally different matter. And I am concerned now because they can't do genetic genealogy without the DNA of the perpetrator. and I'm now concerned that maybe they've got tons of DNA, but not the perps because it's been six months. How long does it take to get the DNA analyzed? Genetic genealogy can take a while because that's research in a library, you know, online with a computer following this one.

1:01:06Like it was basically just a quick refresher. Let's say Megan Kelly is the perpetrator. You know, It was me. I was on the doorstep. And you get a hit, but I've never committed a crime. So my DNA is not in any database. And I've never gone to 23andMe or Ancestry.com. So my DNA is truly like in none of these databases. But my fourth cousin twice removed, whatever, that person did go to AncestryDNA. And so there is, it'll link. Like if they find one piece of my DNA, they can't find anything in their databases. So they say we have unknown DNA. We don't know who it is. But they run it through their system.

1:01:41and my fourth cousin did go to Ancestry or 23andMe, CeCe Moore would want me to say right now, not really those two, only the public DNA database that you choose to have your results uploaded for public consumption. My heritage is dead match. Yeah. Yeah. So he pops up there and now they know they found a relative of the abductor. And then you get everything you can find out about that relative, their family trees, their mother's family tree, the father, where they come from. And that's what gets you closer and closer. Eventually, you find your way over to Connecticut and Megyn Kelly. And then you find out, oh, my God, did she buy a ticket to Tucson on that day?

1:02:17She did. Now you're closing in. Now you get my DNA directly from a discarded, you know, Coke bottle or, you know, tissue, whatever. And then then you get the person. This is kind of what happened with Brian Kohlberger, too. But anyway, my whole point is I'm worried with him saying so many labs and so much DNA that this is still needle in a haystack territory that they don't have a DNA profile that they're linking to the perp. Well, like any other investigation, you have leads that go to the top of the pile and leads that you work your way down to after those leads are exhausted. And I think in this case, what he's saying, and hopefully what he means is that there are a number of people that they have done familial genealogy on, and they have proven, found out who they were because they have to go all the way back to common grandparents and then work their way back down this way to the current generation.

1:03:13And then they have to work in concert with law enforcement to go out and interview relatives of, as you mentioned earlier. So it's law enforcement working with these genealogists, working with the DNA labs. And the reason they have these numerous labs is because there is, for example, one lab in California that specializes in getting full DNA profiles from a single hair with an unrooted hair before you had to have the root. Otherwise, you only get the mitochondrial, which is the mother's line of that. So, you know, there's there are other ones that specialize in touch DNA, which is the one that Nano sent the original DNA evidence to.

1:03:54And as long as it's an accredited lab, they have to jump through a ton of hoops to get that. It's almost like getting a four-star rating for a resort, you have a lot of work to do to get to that point. And so if these are accredited labs, then their protocols are very similar or the same to the protocols of the FBI lab, and they work in conjunction with one another very, very well. So they're probably working down this list, and they may have gotten very close to the actual perpetrator's DNA. And it's not like there's only one team of genealogists, but even if there are four or five teams of genealogists, if they're going back to some tiny village in Croatia and trying to find where everyone went, it takes a long period of time and a lot of manpower.

1:04:44But he didn't say it's with the genetic genealogists now. You know, he said it's at multiple labs, so much DNA at multiple labs. And I'll tell you guys what Matt Murphy told me who you guys know, but he's, he's amazing. He's a lifetime prosecutor. Now he's doing some defense work mostly for cops. Um, but he's put a lot of bad serial killers in jail and, uh, was tough to be in a courtroom. And he says this, Nanos insisted on using a smaller lab in Florida and refuse the offer from the FBI to use the lab at Quantico. No DNA test should ever take six months. And in case involving a kidnap of a vulnerable person, no DNA test should take six days.

1:05:28He says Nanos is a clown. And the DA, Laura Conover, Soros-backed career defense attorney who was elected in 2020, is even worse. There's never been an adult in that room. I mean, I completely take him at his opinion because it's a true, he's a true expert on all of this. He's somebody who actually would have to get DNA to make his cases. It does seem like it's too long fits. It seems like my gut tells me that they they don't have anything. And that Nanos, you heard in that long rambling sound by like, why should I say she's dead? What good does that do? OK, I get it. And we don't know she's dead.

1:06:06So you shouldn't say she's dead. But everything he does is just to sort of make it look like he's still juggling balls in the air where I just don't believe him. Well, yeah, I mean, and Megan, I was on with you within two or three days of the abduction itself. And we thought, you know, days or now, or a week, we'd have this over with, I can't believe we're at the six month point. I think the sheriff somehow feels, you know, quantity supersedes quality, so to say, that's multiple laboratories. Well, that makes it sound like, wow, they're working even harder and getting these and getting these particular tests done.

1:06:42That rings so true, Fitz. Quantity over quality is, you know, a lot of people's excuses for making themselves or whatever the hell they're doing look right. So the bottom line is, I don't know if it's two labs, four, ten. You know, I think Maureen and I earlier tried to explain they do have different levels of experience and expertise at these labs. But it's really just find the one right lab and the multiple teams of these genealogists, familial genealogists that can then take that to the next step. that's what we need here. And again, this may in fact solve the case, but we can be talking about hundreds of separate samples of DNA, of touch DNA throughout that house.

1:07:22I'm sure they gave it up and opened the house up within three or four days. And they were kind of criticized for that. And they said, yeah, we better go back in and start swabbing the entire house. And that's what they did. And these are now all the samples they have. And they're hoping that they get the right hit they want. And they're also looking at surveillance, they said. I'm not sure if that means tag readers and other type of technology such as that in the Tucson area. I'm hoping they're looking at all that. I was hoping that was done the first 48 hours. But so far, no dice, as they say.

1:07:54No resolve. So here's another update. We reached out to the FBI to find out the status of the investigation. They punted to the Pima County Sheriff's Department saying any update will come from them and kind of suggested that's who's still running herd on this. It's not the FBI that's there still in an assistance capacity. But this is not an FBI case. And I think my impression is the FBI really wants us to know that, like they're not going to say that on the record, like we wish it was us and it's not us. It's these guys and we don't have faith in these guys. But I'll just tell you, that's my impression that they they have a frustration with the Pima County Sheriff's Department.

1:08:32That's, again, my opinion. You know what contradicts that? But then they also did tell us that there there there's no more Nest video coming out, that that piece of the investigation is done because it was the FBI. That was the biggest contribution that was made to this case by anybody. And the FBI found it working with Google because Nancy did not pay for a subscription to the Nest camera services where they would hold all the videos and not delete them. So this was on just some random server, the pictures of the guy on the porch about to get deleted. And thank God the FBI went to Google and said, can you search?

1:09:07Is there any way of finding something? And then they did on February 10th, apparently right before it was going to be deleted by the automated system and overwritten. So in any event, it's official. No more Nest camera videos are coming out. and the official word is what they have is the videos we saw of the guy the night he took nancy or we believe he took nancy and one still shot from three weeks earlier you remember it was he looked very much the same but not identical and the sky looked a little uh darker and so there's one he clearly cased the joint three weeks earlier maureen and he came back on february 1st and appears to have taken her so that's where things stand with the feds and this investigation can i make one point um if you look at that latest video from savannah on the very last uh image is it says if you have any information and the phone number and the contact info is the fbi it doesn't even say the pima county sheriff which i found very interesting and in contradiction slightly to what the fbi told you guys when you reached out well and i also wonder whether that's Savannah.

1:10:18Like, who knows? The only chance of solving this is to have the FBI receiving the phone calls and taking in the leads and not Sheriff Nanos, who told our friend, the podcaster, that he hasn't had contact with Savannah in a long time. He said, you know, she's got my number. She's got people. But like, it does not appear that they are doing even weekly updates with one another anymore, which is probably why she did put out that video. Now, I do have a couple of questions for you guys about that video. Can we just watch it? Let's just watch it again, because there's a couple of comments in there that we should discuss.

1:10:56Here we go. I'm coming on today with a very specific message. It has been months since our mom was taken from us. Our family is in agony. we are in a nightmare that will not end. Nothing about our situation has changed. We have done our part. We will never stop looking for her. We will always ache for her and feel that hole in our hearts.

1:11:31The world can be a cruel and unforgiving place. And I know that you have tried to do things the right way. So I'm asking you, begging you to do the right thing now. Make the right choice. Help us find her. Tell us where to look for her. I truly believe it is never too late to do the right thing. Help us bring this situation to an end. For all of us, no matter where we've been and what we've done. I believe there is always a way home. Please make the right choice. Okay, Fitz, as our linguist, what do you make of her message? What is very clear in that message to me is two words. You won. I think this person, this was a personal grievance, the whole kidnapping of, I should say abduction of Nancy, and in so many words, they're actually in specific words, a nightmare that will not end, agony, the ache for her, which of course no one is denying is true on the Guthrie family part.

1:12:43But she's basically saying, you've made your point. You've done your thing. You showed us. Then she didn't use those words, didn't make it confrontational, then kind of backed off and said, look, please do the right thing. I actually said that at least two times. There's always a way home. and it's clear now, and I'd like to believe that Nancy is still alive and among us too, but the odds are she is not. And all they're asking for at this point are some kind of GPS coordinates of where perhaps the body could be found. Nothing more, nothing less than that. And give the family some sort of closure.

1:13:22But essentially this is a concession on the family's part, and it may have been hinted at in earlier messages. And I do believe the FBI and probably the profilers, some of them who I trained back in the day, you know, they helped her craft this. She's smart enough, clever enough. She can put the words together herself. But they made sure that they were they were framed in certain contexts. So not to offend anyone. She basically paid him a compliment. You know, you did your thing. But but we're still hurting. You won. Please at least give us this part. And we'll all move on from there. meaning tell us where nancy can be found i mean it is interesting when you think back to the fact that the ransom notes were addressed to savannah right we've learned that over the past couple months that the two ransom notes or at least one of them was addressed dear savannah so it does appear she was at the heart of this crime um she the daughter and her fame her celebrity and obsession, her money.

1:14:23Who knows? We don't know. We don't know what the motive was. But again, here she comes out and Annie's not there. The brother's not there. It's just Savannah on cam. Once again, saying we're in agony. It's almost like to your point fits. I want you to know you've succeeded. I'm in utter agony. You've succeeded in seriously hurting me. And I remain extremely hurt. Like this is something the guy needs. This is something she and the FBI have calculated will be helpful for him to hear. Maybe not to have pity on her, but as you put it, to believe he's been victorious. I don't know that he's going to have pity on her because he stole her mother and apparently killed her or allowed her to die.

1:15:09But if he feels he's won, you know, if he feels like she had rejected him by not responding to his letters that she may or have received. I've told the audience before, when I had my very bad erotomaniac stalker, who got a very, very serious sentence for this case, not only was he contacting me directly, but he was leaving letters for me all over Washington, D.C., like in National Cathedral, at the CIA HQ or outside of it, and thinking I was receiving these. This is not ordered thinking. so right so this guy may have felt rejected by savannah because she didn't respond to a letter he left you know at abc headquarters instead of nbc who the hell knows um but i see what you're saying like it's her like forgive the term but like showing the belly like okay you know uncle i give up you've you've beaten us just throw us a bone now but you know the one thing maureen and i'd love to get your thoughts on all that too but we have to discuss the phrase we've done our part.

1:16:15We've done our part. What does that mean? When I heard that and when I talked about it to the other homicide detectives on my podcast, Tim Murphy, one of the investigators said, it sounds to me like they paid the ransom, you know, because we've all talked before about we know that some of these notes, we know about these notes that were sent to TMZ and to other places. But we also knew that there was a possibility that some notes made it to Savannah without being presented to these live outlets where everyone would hear about them. So I'm wondering, and I wanted to ask Fitz actually, is there a chance that she did receive information from the offender and did in fact pay the part of the ransom or pay what they asked?

1:17:04And now she said, hey, we've done our part. Step up and do what you said you were going to do. And since you're asking me, Maureen, yes, of course, there's a chance for that. We have no evidence or information to us on the outside. And Megan and Brianette and other people have some pretty good sources. I think that information would have come across what what exactly Savannah meant by we did our part. That is unclear, but at least she's probably responding to one of these communications that came in, hoping against hope that the person who actually took her mother was the one responsible for at least one of those communications.

1:17:44I know we're calling them notes, whatever, whether they came to Savannah, the media, what have you. But to me, it's still inconclusive that they were, in fact, ransom, legitimate ransom demands by the person who we saw on the next camera take Nancy. So she's still saying she responded and did everything that she's supposed to do. So please, quid pro quo, whoever you are, whether you wrote these letters, notes, communications or not, tell us where our mother is. That's all we're asking. But the interesting thing about we've done our part, I agree with your friend, Maureen, the homicide detective.

1:18:23That's how I heard it, too. Like, did they pay? Did they belatedly pay the six million dollars like this week? And that's why she pops up to say we've done our part. And maybe the entire everything around that those words was window dressing. Like the whole purpose of the message was that we've done our part. But I do recall that Harvey Levin and the other two local Tucson stations that received the original ransom note have the Bitcoin address. like they had to provide how you can pay us and they provided an account into which she could deposit the Bitcoin. It was going to be four million if she paid by Thursday and it goes up to six million if she did if she waited until the following Monday, eight days after Nancy was taken.

1:19:11And there was that period where Harvey Levin, because he saw the Bitcoin address, was updating us on whether anything had been paid. So I don't understand Bitcoin, but apparently if you just know the address of somebody's account, you can check it to see whether there's been activity in it. And he was aware that remember when the FBI had like 100 bucks or 300 bucks deposited in there to see if the perpetrator would take it. He knew we found that out because of him. So I feel like Harvey, you know, Harvey enjoys being on television breaking news about this case. So I feel like he would have come out to say, holy shit, we we got a live one for you.

1:20:00You know, six million bucks was just deposited into the Bitcoin account. It could be the FBI said something's going to happen. Keep your mouth shut, Harvey. And they would have had to go to the two local Tucson stations to say that as well. Keep your mouth shut. But I don't know. that's a lot of activity for harvey to stay entirely off cam he doesn't seem to be able to help himself to go out there and just titillate us with something he knows that we don't know he's been very quiet lately and he did also say during those interviews you just referenced that he talked to the fbi about potentially ponying up the money himself to put some money in there to see if they could follow it you know so it's not like the other guy that's in response to the other guy's demands that like, I've seen them in Mexico and I just want one Bitcoin to tell you where they are.

1:20:46Keep going. But he's open to that type of undercover operation, essentially. And so, you know, I agree. And I think that for some reason, and Fitz would obviously know better than I, there just seems to be some feminine component to that second note in particular. And Jim Clemente would agree also. We talked about it on our podcast, Best Case, Worst Case, the other day. And it just seems like there are words and phrases in there that are meant to almost soothe or calm Savannah. It just seems, the phrases just seem more feminine and the words like perished and I can't think of the other ones, buried in nature.

1:21:33with nature yeah it's it's just um those are my thoughts on that i i think there's so i think i don't i don't know it seems like like savannah is trying to mirror that type of um language back to to the author or whoever she's trying to communicate with on her last uh video um i want to talk about clemeni because he actually said a bunch of interesting things But can I get you to weigh in on that, Fitz, on we've done our part? There's some apparent quid pro quo, either direct, indirect, that somehow Savannah felt, I'm sure the FBI profilers assisting her assigned to this case, felt that was somehow important to put out there.

1:22:17In other words, you know, the abductor knows that they went to law enforcement. If that was ever a demand, don't contact law enforcement. They did. If there was some, you know,$100,$60. So there's something in there embedded trying to create this sort of, you know, back and forth, give and take relationship. Hey, we basically done everything we could do with these communications we're getting, which again, Megan and Maureen, we don't know if they're legit or not. They're playing it safe, meaning Savannah and her family, and they're going that at least one or more of them are legitimate. I really think, and I'll just throw this in real quick, the six-month anniversary, I really wish that the sheriff's department, since they're, I guess, in charge of this, would release one or more of those communications and let the rest of the world see what they look like.

1:23:10I fought on the Unabom task force, like 12 angry men. I had to convince people, let's publish this manifesto. And they finally did. And it took a few months. But David, the brother, finally came forward. That's such a good point, Fitz. Said it early on, Megan. That's right. Why does Savannah have to come out and do this? Why? Where is Sheriff Nonno's and not with, again, with all due respect, our 17 year old friend up in Canada? Like, give us an actual real nugget to get interest in the case started again for the sake of the family. As a forensic linguist, I've said from day one, all we're doing is speculating on sound bites we're hearing, you know, buried with nature and all these type things.

1:23:50and it's so hard and even the the feminine part that our good friend Jim Clemente said I can't say no to that but we don't really have the exact words and the context in which that is that is listed even with the Ramsey case we did a tv show about that we all got sued but you know I wouldn't say it was a female author of the note but I said the the author had a clearly maternal instinct certainly in the writing style your audience can take who they think may have written that note. But the bottom line is, if that exists, put it out there for everyone to see. They can keep the last line private, you know, only the investigators know that they can cut something out that's very, you know, singular only to this, let the rest of the world see it.

1:24:33Maybe we'll determine it's a non-native English speaker. I'm teaching a course right this week at Hofstra University online. And these are all the types of topics we're talking about. I went kidnapping in Pakistan. I'm sure you remember that one of the darkest crimes ever committed 2002 ultimately decapitated. There's pictures of him old school holding up a newspaper I forget which English language newspaper it was. But him with handcuffs his arms shackled a gun to his head. And you know, he was kidnapped not for money purposes, for ideological purpose, they thought he was a CIA agent. But you know, that comes back from day one, if you're going to do if you're even a poor kidnapper and an experienced kidnapper, and again, there are so few kidnappings for profit in this country.

1:25:18I mean, we go back decades for the last legitimate one. Why not make it easy? Why do you have everyone speculating whether this was real, whether this account or this letter, this communication, something should have been left at the scene, as I said, or an old school Polaroid picture sent of mom or a clipping of her hair, something like that. We've got her. We want this money. Nothing. Everything is speculative. I don't want to get too far off topic, but we just did a whole week of programming on JonBenet Ramsey as part of our MK Confidential Crime Series that we're doing this summer. You can find it on our MK Show feed.

1:25:54And you can't defame a dead person. And Patsy Ramsey has passed. Do you think Patsy Ramsey was responsible for JonBenet's death? Megan, the lawyer, I was fully indemnified for CBS when we did a show with Jim Clemente back in 2016 with Dr. Henry Lee and a bunch of others. We were sued, fully indemnified, deposed for two days. At the very end, settled out of court, not a penny out of my pocket. Lawyer said, Fitz, anything you say afterwards, you've got to hire your own lawyers. So the CBS special is out there. Well, I will fill in the blanks because CBS concluded in that special that it was the son, right, that it was Burke Ramsey.

1:26:31That's how the episode. And then he's the one who filed the massive lawsuit. And the theory by some, including the grand jury, we believe, as it turned out, was that Burke Ramsey, her nine-year-old brother, killed her and that Patsy and or possibly John Ramsey covered it up because they didn't want anything to happen to their son with like a fake ransom note to. But anyway, that's that's not where our series landed because JonBenet had some stranger's DNA on her and they they've just never been able to match it to anybody. But there is unknown male DNA in JonBenet's underwear on the garrote that was used to strangle her.

1:27:14There's a bunch of evidence that we just haven't been able to, through genetic genealogy or otherwise, find it. And, you know, they're trying to test that right now. They're trying to do genetic genealogy on that tiny, tiny DNA right now. And, you know, Mr. Ramsey's fighting with the Colorado authorities to get the last remaining specks of it so that it can be tested through genetic genealogy and they're not giving it up. That was the last update we had. Thank you so much for all of your expertise and help on this case. And we bring back our other experts that have been with us from the beginning.

1:27:47Chad Ayers, a former SWAT team leader, Will Geddes, elite bodyguard, who has over 30 years of experience as a security expert, and James Hamilton, a former FBI supervisory special agent. Gang, great to see you all together again. The latest that we have, we would just began discussing it with Fitz and Maureen on the ransom notes is we do now I got handed to this Brianna Whitney because she used to work for one of those two Tucson news outlets that did get to see the ransom notes and while Sheriff Nanos won't release them still six months later it's like come on you know like what are you doing she now works for Crime Junkie which is a podcast network full of great two true crime shows and she's given it up so God bless her because it's interesting and And she's seen them.

1:28:35She says she has seen them with her own two eyes, which is credible because she was the reporter for one of those local news outlets that did receive both notes. And here she is. Earlier, we had played her describing the second note and we analyzed it. And now she's released what was in the first one. Here it is in SOT 22. This is how it started. Hello, Savannah. We have your mother, Nancy. She is safe but scared. She will be held for ransom. And once payment is received, she will be released unharmed. We will be holding her for a maximum of seven days. So they go on then to demand the millions of dollars and they give the two deadlines.

1:29:17But what is key here, I think, is that the money was demanded in USD, so US dollar. Typically, if this is coming from somebody here, you don't say that. You don't say that. This is what it went on to say. Once payment is received to the Bitcoin address below, she will be released within 12 hours of deposit to a safe drop-off location back in Tucson. If the payment is not received by the last deadline on Monday the 9th at 5 p.m., she will be killed. Your mother is aware of this, and her life is in your hands. It is in the best interest of everyone to have this completed as soon as possible. You will not be able to contact me from here on out.

1:29:59There will be no negotiation. Do not play games. Law enforcement will not be able to help you. It's fascinating, right? I mean, it's fascinating to actually hear it read. And the fact that it starts with, hello, Savannah. She's safe but scared, 4 million, blah, blah, blah. Then we see the part that Harvey Levin had been referring to for a while about how he believes that they have her within the Tucson area. Because he says she'll be released within 12 hours of deposit to a safe drop off location back in Tucson. If we get the money, basically, her life is in your hands in the best interest of everyone to have this completed as soon as possible.

1:30:39You will not be able to contact me. Do not play games. Law enforcement can't help you. So your impression in response to all of that, I'll start with you on it, Chad. I'm still not buying it. Again, the USD, we talked about that early on. I still personally believe this is some type of organized crime ring, a scam, trying to solicit money to the family. Again, some of these your other guests have a lot more expertise on like these complex kidnapping cases. But, you know, from an outsider with law enforcement background, I just it seems too much of like someone just trying to get money and take advantage of a family going through the worst time of their life.

1:31:20Well, you sound a little like James. James has been our skeptic on the notes from the beginning. But wait, before I get to James, Will, I want to talk to you because you actually are somebody that we all need to call Will. God forbid somebody gets kidnapped that we know because Will's master of the dark arts who actually will just get your family member home. Don't ask questions for a small fee. You'll be reunited with your loved one, ideally. And he has to read notes like this and figure out whether he should credit them or not. So now that you've heard directly from somebody who's seen it, what's in it, what's your takeaway?

1:31:53OK, Megan, firstly, thank you for having me back on the show. Secondly, the note itself seems reasonably well considered and well structured. And certainly one of the biggest challenges on any kind of kidnapping for ransom and particularly resolving any kind of ransom that's been demanded is firstly how that ransom is delivered. and secondly is where the actual hostage is going to be released to. Now, the two parts that are well considered, firstly, Bitcoin, and secondly, that she would be delivered into the local area, which for myself, I see that as pretty convincing and well considered. The only element we're missing here, and I would love to sit down with that journalist and find out whether she knows the answers to this, is how was that ransom demand delivered in the first place?

1:32:44because that's going to tell me an awful lot about whether this is professional or whether I would agree with Chad. Well, we do know. What do you mean? We know it was uploaded to TMZ's tip line. And then we know the, yeah. And also the two local stations have tip lines, you know, like a news organization. A lot of news organizations have these. You can go online and you can upload your tip. And we also now do, I actually didn't know this, But apparently you did have to submit an email in order to use one or all of those tip lines. And the person who did upload it did provide an email. And now just in preparing for today, I learned that it is this is from CBS reporting earlier in July that a Gmail address was entered as the contact email and addressed to Savannah Guthrie.

1:33:36The family worked with the FBI to craft a response, but there was no email back. So clearly this is new. They did try to email that email and didn't get a response. So that's really interesting. I thought these were potentially ransom demands which had been made through various other conduits. Certainly, you know, we discussed the TMZ ones before. So there are two parts to this. And I think James would be able to answer certainly the federal side in terms of the investigation and the relationships with, say, Google to be able to interrogate the Gmail account. But setting up a burner Gmail account, that to me sniffs of someone that's not so organized.

1:34:17I don't want to give any viewers ideas of how to deliver a ransom demand by a more secure route. But I certainly wouldn't be using Gmail because Gmail, even if you set up a burner account, you use various VPNs. They are reasonably traceable, even if it is just a singular account that they've set up for the purposes of delivering this this ransom demand. All right. Wait, there's more to the first note, as we all know, because the person convinced the FBI that they had Nancy, apparently. Yeah. By saying specific things about Nancy's home. and Brianna Whitney gets into that too. And, you know, I mean, good honor, six months for the love of God.

1:34:59Like, just tell us what was in the note and here she does, watch. And then at the very end, they basically give what we learned in the press conference at the time that there was something only the abductor would know, which was she had a white smartwatch that was on the floor near her bed, like at the foot of her bed. And then there was this floodlight that was destroyed in the backyard. So those two clues are what gave the FBI kind of the wherewithal to say this is not a hoax. At least they didn't think so, or they were investigating it as possibly legitimate. They still are, by the way. Now, that's I mean, that's a tough one, because broken floodlight on the outside of a house is something anyone going by could see.

1:35:42That's that is why would they choose that? but look you know watch at the foot of the bed is good that's a good one like yeah white apple watch is not that great this is i have an apple watch on now it's not that great because we have seen pictures of nancy wearing the white apple watch we we've documented that on this show prior to her abduction um here's one uh but there's multiple shots of her wearing the apple watch with the white band so you could have gleaned that as somebody posing as the kidnapper just trying to get money from the family. But if they said it was at the foot of the bed on the floor and it was, even you, James, you got, that would, that would get your attention.

1:36:25Sure. Hey, good to see you. It would get my attention. Good to see you too. It, again, you made the great point about the floodlight and anyone could have seen that. Again, if I am going to go through all this trouble to kidnap this lady and try to get paid, I'm certainly not going to send an email to a local news outlet or TMZ in the hope, in big H, that they're going to get it somehow to Savannah. And Savannah is actually going to believe me with all the other fake ransom emails that are coming in. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to reach out to her directly, and I'm going to tell her what I want and how to get her mom back.

1:37:02I liked the note. I thought it was pretty good. It was pretty ruthless. Gave no kind of way to go back and forth. I thought that was pretty good. But again, there are a lot of great writers out there. I don't know. It's interesting. I don't know. I mean, I think it's okay that the Bureau... Okay, well, that's... Go ahead. Okay, now you're raising something very interesting that I hadn't even given any thought to. Was the first note written by the same person as the second note? Because there is, the way you say that, pretty good, pretty ruthless, as, you know, the greats are supposed to be. um this the second note totally different totally dead like soft and sorry here's brianna describing that one same thing on the crime junkie podcast we heard her do this in june and we all came on and analyzed it because she was she just posted something on instagram revealing it for the first time but here she is laying it out in a little bit more detail uh in sat 25 i have spent months and months covering the nancy guthrie case boots on the ground and in my former role before i came to Crime Junkie.

1:38:04I was made aware of what these ransom notes said as I was reporting on the case. I've seen them with my own eyes. So I want to actually provide more context as to what that second note said. The way that this note was written, it's written as we, like we didn't know this as if it was some sort of team or whoever was involved in this. It said, we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical condition. It went on to say that they never intended to hurt her during all of this. They continued and said she perished shortly after she was taken. They believe that it was heart related. And then what the reports were confirming earlier today, that she was buried with nature.

1:38:44And maybe the most important part of the second ransom note, it said nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. We are truly sorry. Now that matches exactly what News Nation is reporting. News Nation is reporting, quote, we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical conditions. Plural. We never intended to hurt her, period. This was not our intention, which is redundant. It's kind of interesting. We never intended to hurt her. This was not our intention. She perished shortly after she was taken. Perished. Odd. We believe it was heart-related. They're speculating as to the cause.

1:39:22She is buried in nature, not with nature, as Brianna reports, but they report she is buried in nature now. Nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome, like comforting. Again, not ruthless. It wasn't your fault. You couldn't have done anything. We are truly sorry. We are truly sorry. There's been a debate about whether there was an apology News Nation reporting that there was. Now, I got to hold you guys over because we got 10 seconds into this hour of SiriusXM. It's coming to an end, but we will pick it up right after this quick break. Don't go away. We will tackle this note versus the first six months after Nancy was taken.

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1:43:10We're back now with Chad Ayers, Will Geddes, and James Hamilton. James, sticking with you for now. So how do we go from she will be killed? Her life is in your hands. Do not play games. Law enforcement will not be able to help you to. It never intended to hurt her. It wasn't our intention. She perished. We believe it was heart related. She's buried in nature. We're truly sorry. Nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. Well, I think Chad's right. It sounds like you have a man and a woman writing these letters. You could have the man write the first letter. We said this last time, it sounds like a woman is writing this second letter with just the maternal kind of apologies and the sadness, what have you, which is far different than this first letter, which is very businesslike and very direct.

1:43:56I would just like to say real quick that when you were reading that, I was kind of laughing when he said, or I think it's a he, she would be deposited within 12 hours. and 12 hours is some, you know, oh, well, that tells us something. Do you know how far 12 hours is from Tucson? That's Sinaloa, Mexico or Salt Lake City, Utah. So it really doesn't tell us an awful lot. Okay. Like big deal. Okay. 12 hours. He could be anywhere or she could be anywhere. That's my thought on it. Go ahead, Chad. Yeah. I still go back on, they're so totally differently written. I think they were like, we've all said, I think they were written by two totally different individuals.

1:44:39And if it was completely serious, why, you know, and if we thought there was more to it, I don't understand why the Pima County Sheriff's Office at this point, six months in, why are they not the ones releasing this? Why are we having some, you know, a phenomenal reporter being the one that's happened to release this? The more, you know, without jeopardizing this investigation, the more the people in that area and surrounding areas can know it may trigger that one next tip that is holding this investigation back. Yeah, it's up to him to spur interest in the case. I mean, that's typically the role of the lead investigator who will think of like, what can I give the public to get?

1:45:23It's not just to get news coverage, it's to get tips, it's to get something that actually might help solve it. Well, can we talk about the pronoun issue in the letters? Because in this first letter, the ransom demand, we have your mother, Nancy. We will be holding her for a maximum of seven days. If the payment's not released, she will be killed. She's aware. Her life is in your hands. then he says you will not be able to contact me from here on out so we we and then the second note we didn't fully grasp the seriousness we never intended to hurt her this is not our intention we believe was heart related we are truly sorry but there was that one slip you will not be able to contact me from here on out what do you make of that well i'm going to draw from that uh a couple of different things and i'm also going to draw from what james and also chad just said which is i believe that i agree with them that it was a male and a female who wrote both separate notes that the use of uh the generality of we is a standard you know nobody if it's an individual that's kidnapped nancy they're never going to want to indicate it's necessarily them the second thing is the tonal difference between the two notes and the third thing which is really interesting because I'm seeing current ransom demands being sent through, and these quite often are put through AI.

1:46:54So they're cleaned up, they're tidied up, they're improved to make sure that grammatically and spelling-wise they're formulated in a better way. This would appear to me to indicate potentially an age category for the kidnappers as well, and perhaps individuals that wouldn't be so au fait with using, for example, AI to clean up that ransom demand to try and remove any identifiers or anything else that would potentially highlight who they might be or where they may be coming from. So there are some interesting aspects here. They're well-formed, the 12-hour distance or time delay in terms of returning Nancy.

1:47:35Well, yes, of course, they're never going to want to give any kind of geographic position of where they may be bringing her from and delivering her to. So, yes, they're going to use the widest potential circumference from Tucson to actually return her. But I think the notes in themselves tell an awful lot more than just what the content is. I mean, is there any chance, James, that this actually is just one guy? It's Porch Man. And, you know, notwithstanding the fact that he propped open the back door of Nancy's house, which many of us believe he did to allow an accomplice to come in. I shouldn't have said us I don't know what happened I don't have a belief on that but a lot of people believe that he propped open the back door of Nancy's house so that an accomplice could come in um because we believe he entered through the back door after not succeeding to get in that front door but we do know from leaked reporting that the back door was propped open with like a planter or something and that's weird because he exited with Nancy out the front door we know that from Nancy's blood all over the front stoop.

1:48:39So in any event, why would you prop open the back door? And like, why would you do that other than to allow a buddy to come, et cetera? In any event, is it possible that notwithstanding that, this is one guy and he just slipped there by saying me, whereas every other pronoun was we to sound more ominous, more threatening, like more serious, like somebody she's going to have to bargain with or Savannah and her siblings are going to have to bargain with. Sure. Yeah. You know, it's possible. Like I was saying the other day to somebody on these theories, you know, as an investigator, you know, certainly you can have a theory, and I think we all do here, but I, you know, have to be very focused on what the evidence is saying to me.

1:49:18It's not, you know, people, because what can happen is you can fall in love with your theory. You can fall in love with what you believe. It's your narrative you're painting in your head. And as an investigator, that's terribly difficult to do. And you shouldn't do that, by the way. You should let the evidence, you know, take you to, you know, the subject. And I think that's the challenge with all this is that we are theorizing and we don't have all the information. Sure, it could be the guy on the porch writing these letters. It could be his girlfriend, his wife. I think that's certainly reasonable.

1:49:48One of the biggest mysteries around these notes, if we believe they're real, these two ransom notes, is what incentive does a kidnapper have before the ransom has been paid? and even before the ransom deadlines have expired, because Nancy was taken on a Sunday in the wee hours of Saturday into Sunday. The ransom note came on Monday. They said, you've got till Thursday and we'll give, for 4 million, we'll give her back. But if you miss that deadline, it was very weird. If you miss that deadline, we'll give her back as of Monday if you pay 6 million. So you got 4 million on Thursday. The price goes up to 6 million if we wait till Monday.

1:50:25this this note this first ransom note came after the expiration of the first deadline but before the expiration of the second deadline saying she's dead like sorry guess what she died what would the incentive be by the actual kidnapper or frankly by anyone else to say that before the deadlines are expired you're still hoping you're about to get six million dollars you've sent your initial communication, you've been your threatening, you know, self. I don't get that. Does anybody have a thought on that? I do. I will. I mean, my feeling on it is it's, again, another indicator of a kidnapper who doesn't do this as a business.

1:51:11This is not a an industry that this individual has been involved in. All these these people have been involved in before. There's a certain degree of professionalism, but to be honest, there's a lot of amateurish approach. And one of the things which is absolutely key is there's so many different factors that can influence even a willing satisfaction of a ransom. And to put such a defined deadline usually is an indicator of someone who is fearful, is frightened of potentially getting caught or discovered or captured in some shape or form. So, you know, them putting in a defined deadline of you don't deliver by this date, then the hostage is going to be dead.

1:51:54There is a possibility they may have opened up channels to say, yes, OK, we have to extend it. Because more often than not, when we're negotiating a kidnapping, the first thing that one will use is referral. And referral will be that we need to try and get hold of the money. We need to aggregate that money together to be able to pay it, particularly when it's a very large ransom. And one of the reasons why many ransoms are settled, Megan, at a far lesser figure than the original demand is because of the availability of the cash and being able to do so. You know, from our point of view, unlike the other chaps here, you know, my job is not to capture or apprehend the kidnapper.

1:52:32It's to get the hostage back. So, you know, I don't care about who they are. I just want to get the hostage back and I will pay the ransom by whatever means possible. But because of the publicity that this garnished, I think these two were absolutely terrified. And whether, unfortunately, Nancy expired, which I have a horrible feeling that unfortunately that is the case. And I think we all do. I think the fact is that they were panicked into trying to get this done as quickly as possible, not knowing necessarily her health conditions until she was actually in their care. There was at least one intervening event between the original ransom demand and the she perished note.

1:53:15And it was the family's response, right? I'm trying to make sure. It was 47 and 47, we have Savannah in her first video talking about the potential, about the ransom note, we believe. And I think this was after number one and before number two, because after number two, we got the super sad video where she was like, we received your message. We understand. We want to celebrate with our mother. We will pay. Remember, she had said that. I think this is the first response we got in 47. Is it, Steve? Yeah, let's watch 47, which was before the expiration of the second deadline. and we believe before the second ransom note came in.

1:54:02We too have heard the reports about a ransom letter in the media. As a family, we are doing everything that we can. We are ready to talk.

1:54:17However, we live in a world where voices and images are easily manipulated. we need to know without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her we want to hear from you and we are ready to listen please reach out to us okay that yeah james hamilton's shaking his head No, because now that if you're a fraudster and you hear that, you're like, I don't have a body. I don't actually have Nancy. I think I need to come up with why I can't produce the thing they're demanding before giving me the millions. Like, whoops, she died. So sorry. But I still like to get paid. Like then it would start to make sense to me, James.

1:55:17Yeah, you actually answered it when you initiated the question to Will, when you said, who does that? Why would you do that? That doesn't make any sense, right? Yeah, well, the people that do that are fraudsters. That's what they do. And it always is urgency. It always starts with urgency. And the first letter was, you know, there's nothing you can do. You must do this now. It's all on you. If, you know, when she dies, it's all on you. Okay, that's all fraud tactic 101. You got to make it about it's urgent. It's all on you. You got to get in. Law enforcement can't help you. Every fraud starts that way.

1:55:53It has to be done right now. And don't you dare tell law enforcement. And then here we are. You nailed it. They are saying something. They're probably responding to this first note. And now that people are saying, oh, crap, we don't have the body, but let's get something out of it. And then they come with, hey, you know, that first expiration date, we were just kind of kidding about that. Now, here's another one. And that's fraud 101. They're trying to get 10 bucks. If they get 10 bucks, that's better than what they had when they started, right? Which was nothing. And the last thing I would say is, I didn't recall this the first time I saw that video, but Savannah is saying, you know, we've seen the reports in the media of the ransom demand.

1:56:32You know, and Will's been doing a lot of these as I have with these kidnapping. I've never worked a kidnapping where the family learns about the kidnapping ransom concerns through the media. It never works that way, right? The kidnapper contacts the family or the person who is eligible to pay. And certainly it's going to be Savannah named in the note because she's the rich one. I mean, that doesn't take a genius to figure that out. If they had named the brother or the sister, people are like, that's weird. But naming Savannah, that's an easy one. My kid could figure that one out. 100 % agree. Okay, but how did they know where Nancy's Apple Watch was in the room the morning after she was taken?

1:57:13Yeah, that's a great question. If I had confidence that this crime scene was 100 % secured, that these cops, no one talked, that whoever was involved and had information that no one has said a word to anybody, I'd feel better about, okay, there might be some credibility here, but I'm not. And the white watch, again, do we know for a fact that it said, you know, by the foot of her bed? Or is there some video out there? Or is there someone who would have known that the watch slipped off? Or maybe they just took a guess and got right. That could be, again. Or maybe, maybe, forgive me, but like, maybe it's a cop.

1:57:53Maybe the person writing the letters is law enforcement. Again, like we were saying at break, you don't really, until you get the human body back and we have some clarity, we don't want to rule out anything. Okay. Anyone, anybody, anything. So we definitely want to keep our options open and keep our eyes open. Right. Um, I, I, so I didn't like that they cleared a lot of people in the beginning because I, unless I have Ms. Guthrie back a body or the live body, I can't be ruling people out right now. that's what's like if you if we're going chad on if we if we go down the perpetrator like somebody took nancy that that's real yeah that we know but we don't know that that's the same person as wrote these ransom notes and if we go down the lane of these are two different people the person who took nancy never wrote the note for whatever reason she died he panicked who knows but someone decided to write a note and take advantage of this situation.

1:58:55You can't rule out law enforcement who would have been in the room. I mean, I don't think it was a cop. I doubt it. But I'm just saying, we're keeping our open minds. You can't rule out family. Like somebody, it would have to be somebody, I think, who was in the room. Like if that location of that watch was good enough to convince the FBI the person had been in the room post-abduction, then it would have to have been somebody who had access to the room either right before the abduction and they just noticed the watch was there or right after the abduction. And that would narrow the pool considerably to the people who could have written that note.

1:59:31Well, one, do we know if the both of these notes came from that same Gmail address? Has that been confirmed? Yes. Well, we know that both of the notes had the same Bitcoin deposit numbers. So whoever they do believe it was the same person, because that's a very individualized thing to know like what the Bitcoin address is. Well, I almost interrupted earlier because for the first time I picked up on something on that still footage. And that was that the perpetrator had put the flashlight in their mouth. Right. And I know we'd mentioned it, but like the thought of just somebody with no experience whatsoever thinking to put the flashlight in their mouth to hold it to try to conceal that ring doorbell is odd.

2:00:18But you're exactly right. I mean, a small type of flashlight like that. I mean, this is something that not a lot of people like obviously will being in the executive perspective space, James working EP stuff myself, working EP like we keep small flashlights on us at all times. Right. With our client getting in and out of cars. So could this I mean, this is the first time and I don't think we've ever discussed the potential of this possibly being someone affiliated with the case. But nothing's off the table here, guys. I mean, nothing. None of this is off the table. We do know we were talking on a lot of people moved off the possibility if it was ever out there when they saw how he had his gun.

2:01:03Right. Because most of you guys who have carried a gun for a living kind of laughed at how he had that gun on him. Yeah. Which is, again, could that be something to throw throw somebody off? I don't know. None of these theories are out of the question. We were talking on break going back to, you know, Tommaso and them and all the family passing their, you know, I reported that from a federal source out there that they pass with flying colors. Listen, I know plenty of people who can pass polygraph exams after they were cleared. The FBI was back at Annie and Tommaso's house taking photographs and conducting an investigation in there.

2:01:43Why after they cleared with cleared them with flying colors, were they back in there still taking photographs? I mean, it would be such a bombshell if the family, like if someone in the family were extorting Savannah for a ransom demand and had nothing to do with the kidnapping that I mean, that would be so mind blowing. well? I think Pandora's box is already open, Megan, so we might as well look into the contents of it. You know, the chaps and I were discussing during the break a number of different factors, and particularly how this case had been managed by the local sheriff's department, how the crime scene had been opened and released way too early, the fact that there have been so many people discounted as potential suspects.

2:02:31And I think, as James said, I completely concur that until you actually have a body, you can't discount anybody. Now, let's throw into the mix and maybe into the forum for discussion a couple of factors. Firstly, looking at those ransom demands and that the tonal difference between one that we would perceive to be in more of a male voice and the other one in a more female voice. Let's also add into the mix the old mantra in our industry, which I've certainly seen in practice over the last 30 years, Megan, of the 70 percent rule, which I've mentioned to you before, which is in 70 percent of kidnappings.

2:03:11There is someone connected to the hostage in some shape or form, whether it be a family member or whether it be an associate, a friend, but someone who knows the victim or the hostage. And then very lastly, there have been and again, I discussed this with the guys in the break. There have been cases where you have one successful sibling who's done immensely well and exceptionally well financially and monetarily. And there is another sibling that it hasn't done so well and is perhaps a little bit embittered about it and has chosen to kidnap another family member to basically then try and extort from that other family member.

2:03:51I wouldn't discount anything right now, that's for sure. You know, I wanted to pick up on the discussion we were having about the fraudster injects urgency right from the top. And I may mention this before, but we had a whole week of specials in June of 2024. We called it Fraud Week, and we told various people's fraud stories where they were actually defrauded or an attempted fraud occurred. And we culminated that week in my own attempted fraud against me and my family. It was really perpetrated. Patient zero was my mother-in-law, my husband's elderly mom, who got a phone call from what she thought was her hysterical daughter, Doug's sister, saying, Mom, I've been in a terrible car accident.

2:04:42and I've been arrested because we were arrested for DWI and my partner, Brad, that's her, you know, basically her spouse has been arrested because he punched a cop and we're in the prison right now, the jail, and we need, we need bail. And this is the number of my lawyer, please call. All right, so we get a call from Doug's mom saying I spoke to Diane, she's in jail. DWI, they don't even drink, but you know, you never know, it was COVID. It was like everybody was doing weird things. And we're like, holy shit. You know, this is the mother who said, I talked to my own daughter. We didn't even think to question whether that was in fact Diane.

2:05:22And we were well down the lane of paying the money to bail them out. $17 ,000 before it dawned on one of our cabal to go by Brad and Diane's house. and there they were sitting there totally oblivious that the whole family had been running around trying to bail them out of jail because of this alleged incident. It was all a lie, but it was an elaborate lie. And, you know, it started with the urgency. They had an actor, a female actor who pretended to be Diane and convinced Diane's mother that she was talking to her own daughter. She said she had broken her nose in the car crash. And so she sounded a little and she was hysterical.

2:06:00She was hysterical crying. She's dealing with an 86 year old mom at this point. Anyway, there's that on the urgency. And then there's, then there's this, which we, again, we think this is a separate person, but we don't know that the second round of emails to Harvey Levin from the person saying, I'm not the kidnapper, but I know him, I've seen him. And I do think this is very telling. So this, this person chimed in with, I know where they are. Um, the TMZ, this was reported by, um, by Harvey saying we received a note just before 5am Pacific time. The sender claims they've unsuccessfully tried to reach Savannah Guthrie's brother, Cameron and her sister, Annie by email and text.

2:06:44If they want the name of the individual involved, then I want one Bitcoin to the following wallet. Time is more than relevant. They include a legitimate Bitcoin address and it's a different address from the one that was in the original two notes. Then they say, okay, so then they say, time is more than relevant. Then they get a second letter from the friend. They say, TMZ, okay, received a second email from the same person who complained, I'm not being taken seriously. He says, one thing he makes clear, the situation has changed from Wednesday to Thursday. He says he will need money to lay low after identifying the kidnapper for fear of retaliation.

2:07:27He also worries he might be incriminated like that Carlos guy, the delivery man who was detained and released. He ends this, the second note to Harvey by saying, this is his final attempt to help. This is it. I want my one Bitcoin and you won't be hearing from me again. Well, what happens? That was February 12th, Thursday. What happens on Friday, February 13th? You guys all know exactly what happened. We hear from him again As it turns out, it wasn't the final. A third email from the guy, and now he's upped his price. He says he's contacting TMZ because he doesn't trust law enforcement. He says, you don't trust me and I don't trust you to authorities.

2:08:07He suggests the reward being doubled by the FBI to$100 ,000 was a move designed to discredit me. He says when he gets the initial payment, he'll give up the name of the main individual, referring to the main individual, suggesting that there are accomplices. He refers to the current state of Nancy Guthrie, but won't be specific. This email does not or does warn authorities if they cooperate with the center, they should be prepared to go international. OK, but he's still in touch. He hasn't cut off touch. And then comes one on Sunday, February 15th. Wait a minute. What happened to this is it? You won't hear from me again.

2:08:43Here we are back on Sunday, February 15th. A fourth email, same Bitcoin account as the other three notes. I know what I saw five days ago south of the border. And I was told to shut up. So I know who he is. And that was definitely Nancy with them, upping the ante about what he's seen. The second reference he's made to being there and that there being more than one person involved. He says now he has a burglary on his record from 10 years ago. So he's scared to come forward. And then Friday, March, oh, sorry, Friday, June 26th. Yet another email comes in allegedly from this person. Now this person says he has video of the main guy and Nancy on the day she died.

2:09:27The point being, the urgency is there. The lies become apparent. And it's like the arc of a fraudster. And if we look back at just those first two ransom notes, I take your point, James. they have a similar arc where it's like urgency and tough and like, or else, and then like, oh, she perished. It's not your fault, you know, but still possibly keeping the family on the line. Yeah. And think about, just think about all of the resources, the time, like we've spent just talking about these notes. You know, we've spent a lot of time on these shows talking about these notes. Well, there are investigators behind the scenes who are having to work through this also, and they're dealing with the family.

2:10:18They're trying to figure out this is real or not. I mean, it's very, very difficult, hard work. And if these are fraudsters, you know, they're going to have to say in their report, hey, we're moving away because this guy's clearly a fraudster and they better be right, right? Because they're going to be asked about it and judged later if they were wrong. But, you know, we need other investigators who are working other buckets of this case. and you see how much time this has taken just us. And if they don't have a lot of resources, which again, I'd like to know exactly how many people are working on this thing, there's a lot of bodies getting chewed up with nonsense, right?

2:10:51And that's part of what's going on and that's why we're sitting here six months later and there's nothing, right? We have nothing. But these things can tend to take us down these rabbit trails and if we don't have a lot of resources and a lot of bodies working it, it makes this very, very difficult. okay what go ahead chad you're gonna say something and we may get there but it's it's almost the way she's talking in those videos um does the bureau feel like some of this could be legit because the way she speaks in her recent video a few days ago um some of her verbiage in there makes me believe that you know if these you know behavioral analysis and and agents with the bureau are talking to her that they do somewhat feel like there is some type of communication still going on behind the scenes.

2:11:42That that is exactly. I don't know if there's still communication, but she definitely told Hoda that she thinks those first two notes are real. And I think she probably got that from the FBI because Savannah is a sophisticated customer. She wouldn't be deviating from what federal law enforcement had told her. Well, you know, I mean, I do agree with Chad. I think certainly from her last release, her last video, that it does appear to be some kind of communication channel that is open, which which does it conversely works against those other notes, which are more definitive. There were no channels of communication.

2:12:17And certainly one of the things that maybe Savannah is looking to try and achieve, and again, I've done this, is where unfortunately the hostage has perished. It is trying to retrieve, obviously, the deceased family member or friend or whoever it might be that's been taken hostage. So it may be her beseeching some sort of communication. The problem is with a lot of these frauds, like James was saying, when you have a case which is well publicised, everybody's going to come out the woodwork to try and jump on the wagon and make a few bucks here and there. We saw it with the infamous case over here for Madeleine McCann, the small child that went missing.

2:12:55And there are still frauds to this day who are trying to claim that they have witness evidence and they have information that could lead to her whereabouts. So, you know, the big challenge, as James was saying, for the Bureau is to try and differentiate and try and move one to the other. Whether there is a current line of communication, I don't know. But certainly I would see her beseeching, obviously, whoever did have her to say, where is she so we can get her back? Hey, Megan, we just we just covered. I was saying earlier that we have this series that we're doing for the summer called MK Confidential, and it's it's a series on crimes, infamous crimes.

2:13:35that we're releasing on our same podcast feed. In the first week, we did JonBenet Ramsey. And in that case, not only, okay, we said we never found out, you know, who killed her, we never found out who wrote the ransom note. But we did have more than one guy claiming he did it. Like, there was this one guy in particular, who claimed he did it, and like, confessed the whole thing, he wanted, quote, credit for it. He had nothing to do with it. It was like his weird fantasy. So Like the FBI is going to deal with that possibility, too, that there are people glomming onto this, like wanting for their own.

2:14:11I don't know, weird psychological benefit to convince people that they're the perpetrator or that they have a connection to the perpetrator just just to get off on it. Never even never mind even the Bitcoin, Chad. Well, think how many years that narcissistic sociopath Joran Vandersloot in the Natalie Holloway case was dropping little hints and teasing things along the lines, but would never. He did do it. Yeah, of course. But it took forever for him to come back out and say something. But in this last video, Savannah, I'm going to read what she says when she says, the world can be a cruel and unforgiving place.

2:14:46And I know that you have tried to do things the right way. I picked up on that and it's almost like she feels like she's talking to the same person. And I'm just going back. I feel like there is other communication that we do not know about. Yeah. Megan, let me jump in real quick. Chad had asked me a question and I think I want to I want to be very direct on that. I think you're right, Chad. I think there's somebody from the bureau talking to her about what to say. Okay? And that's fine. And I think that's great. I think my concern here, and I don't know if anyone's picking up on this, but this might be all they have.

2:15:26Okay? Meaning they have nothing other than these very strange ransom notes to the media. And that's where they're going. It's almost like this Hail Mary pass at the end of the game. So what I'm gleaning from this, that we don't have anything. We don't have fingerprints. We don't have DNA. We don't have cell phone activity. We don't have the normal evidence that you would find in a kidnapping. OK, and this is it. We're going to we need to reach out to maybe a fraudster to see if maybe they can give us something. And that's scary as hell to me. Yeah, totally agree. Totally agree. Sheriff Nano says that we play the soundbite in our first hour.

2:16:02He says we have DNA at multiple labs, not just FBI. We have multiple labs who have so much DNA. But we don't have any idea whether they have DNA of someone they think is the perpetrator, you know, as opposed to like there's DNA inside the refrigerator at Nancy's house, too. But do we have any idea whether it's from the person who abducted her? Well, no, exactly. I think, again, that's that's just casting the net as wide and as far as possible, which is probably the only options that they've got right now. But I'd certainly agree with both Chad and James with what they've just said. I think certainly in terms of Chad saying that there is possibly another line of communication.

2:16:38James, certainly in terms of the Bureau, providing Savannah as to what to actually say, and that's standard framing, as we would call it, which we do in what we call the contact preparation. So when a demand comes through, it generally will be a family member or a partner or spouse who will be the person that will be necessarily communicating. It's not necessarily an official that's picking up the thing, particularly picking up the phone or the communication, because ultimately, again, it's not about capture, it's about retrieval. So I think - Do you think, Will, she deposited the money with that line?

2:17:15We've done our part. Do you think there's any chance she deposited$6 million? I certainly hope not. No, I mean, the golden rule is you never make any kind of down payment and you never make any sort of gesture of payment. Proof of funds comes against proof of life. And that's the one thing which has really held this whole thing up. There's been zero proof of life on Nancy, which unfortunately, again, leads me to suspect that she perished pretty quickly after the capture. Can I bring up one thing? James Fitzgerald was saying. Yeah, go ahead, Chad. Sorry. I think Will might have just mentioned this, James.

2:17:52I apologize. Which one? But we did have a recent news article that came out, I think, on CBS, where an anonymous FBI source stated, we are no closer today at six months than we were when this happens. And remember, Megan, the last time that we communicated, I discussed my federal source that told me that there are no solid suspects in this case. And that was, what, four months ago, probably four or five months ago, when we last had that communication. And now six months later, CBS is reporting almost verbatim the exact same thing. Although Maureen told us the last time she was on, she has reason to believe that they're zeroing in on Porch Man, that it hasn't come to fruition yet.

2:18:37And my impression in dealing with my own sources is the FBI is trying to distance itself from this case and from Sheriff Nanos, that they want it really clear that this is his investigation, not theirs. And that does not exactly smell like success to me. You know, like they're getting ready to say, oh, it's a joint effort and we got the guy. It sounds more like, oh, shit, we've got nothing. This Nimrod out there, because what I can say, separate and apart from my own impression, is Nanos and Patel have been kind of warring. Patel went on Hannity and made some statements that were basically along these lines, you know, that we weren't brought in until late.

2:19:18you know Sheriff Nanos kind of kept the FBI out of this he said local officials kept FBI do we have that sound bite you guys I think we do anyway this is from May 5th this is on Sean Hannity they were trying to keep you guys out they did and for four days we were kept out of the investigation and when we were finally let in Sean look what we did we went in and got the ring doorbell and we said, hey, is anyone talking to Google? I called the leadership at Google. That's why you have that image because the FBI worked with Google to put that image out. Why did they send the DNA to a lab in Florida, not Quantico?

2:20:00Again, we were saying, we'll process it. I launched hundreds of agents and intel staff to Phoenix in Tucson just for this case, just to be on standby. And they didn't want you there. Just to do the canvassing. And we said, we'll take the DNA. And again, it's a state and local matter. So it's their call on where to send the DNA. hey, we have Quantico, best lab in the world. I had a fixed-wing aircraft on the ground ready to move it immediately through the night. And they said, we're sending it to Florida. And we would have analyzed it within days and maybe gotten better information or more information.

2:20:28Our lab's just better than any other private lab out there. And we didn't get a chance. All right, let me tell you what's really interesting about that soundbite. There is zero chance those two did not discuss how it was gonna go before the interview. And Hannity's questions are just as telling as Kash Patel's answers. Hannity's disdain, right? His contempt for Sheriff Nanos was evident there. Like, why didn't they call you in four days as though that's like four months? I mean, granted, it's like it would have been better if they'd been there day one. But Sheriff Nanos' answer is they actually were there.

2:21:01They weren't there day one, but they were there day two that Sheriff Nanos says Kash Patel is wrong, that they were brought in within, I think, 48 hours. And they were. But but the point is. Hannity is telegraphing the FBI is not to blame. Cash Patel is telegraphing the FBI is not to blame. Now, let's be honest, it would have been better if the FBI had been there day one. I think we can all agree on that. But like they were there. They were there within 48 hours, 72 at the absolute outside. We saw that presser. The first presser was sheriff non-hust. But then right after that, we had an FBI agent who briefed us from Tucson.

2:21:46So they were definitely brought in by February 3rd. That's 48 hours. She was taken on February 1st. So all of this is to say, this is about covering your ass. That's what's obvious. Cash Patel is like, we had a fixed wing aircraft. Okay. I'm not blaming him. I'm just, and the FBI, He's like, well, we were the ones who found the image. Yes. Good for you. That's great. But let's be honest. The FBI has not been able to solve this case any more than the Pima County Sheriff has. Well, I think if I could, as the FBI person here, when we say the FBI was there, we've got to be real careful what we're saying.

2:22:25OK, some agent from the Tucson field office who just rolls over there in his field jacket saying, hey, I'm here to help in any way we can, to me does not meet the definition of the FBI has got its resources on the ground and they're working this thing. That is not what I'm feeling at all. And what I hear, and I don't know Mr. Patel at all, but what I'm hearing from him is it sounds like the real resources, the lab, the ERT, the cell phone analysis unit, all of this big resource stuff, which is on the East Coast, by the way, that wasn't allowed in until four days after she was taken. That is significant.

2:23:03That's not, that might as well be four years when you're dealing with a kidnapping. So it is significant that they weren't brought in immediately. Now, Nanos can say it's because, you know, the FBI, blah, blah, blah. But I kind of tend to understand what Patel is saying. And I think we need to be real clear when we say, yeah, they were there. In what capacity is the better question? Well, that's a very fair point, because I think the The FBI's complaint from the beginning has been they've not been allowed to run herd on this. And you got Sheriff Nanos running herd and that he doesn't know what he's doing.

2:23:35Right. And that's the challenge with this case, as we kind of said the first episode, they don't have primacy. You know, they can't just roll in their FBI style in the movies and say, hey, we're taking over. They can't do that on a kidnapping. And so they are really at the behest of the locals. And thank God, you know, there are media outlets like you keeping pressure on this Nanos because that's it. He's not a city police chief like in Seattle. They can get fired. He's a sheriff. And the only way he can really get removed is some type of election change or some type of ballot initiative by the citizens of Pima County, which I don't see happening.

2:24:09But there's got to be pressure put on this guy to be more forthwith. I saw Fitz talking earlier about start to release some things, and he's right. But we're not getting anything from this guy other than quick snippets at his white Corvette on his way to the gym. Mm hmm. No, that's why I applaud this. Brianna Whitney, this journalist from the local Tucson outlet who's now with Crime Junkie, who's like, I'm going to tell you what's in the two notes. Like, good for her. What could possibly be compromised at this point if that's really what's in those two notes in her revealing that? Right. It's like, but why does she have to do that?

2:24:44Why does Savannah have to go and do the, you know, we're in agony video. Where is Sheriff Nonos? He's sitting down with a 17-year-old podcaster from Canada saying, oh, we're all over the DNA. It would be laughable if it weren't so frustrating. I want to, we pulled a soundbite you guys just, just, just for kicks. When the whole fraud on us, my family came out when we realized Diane and Brad were fine and they were at home and we had spoken with them. We realized, Oh my God, we're in the midst of somebody trying to defraud us. We kept it going. The fraudster did not know we found out. And so we kept it rolling for a little while longer.

2:25:26And it was super fun. You would have been so, it would have been so fun to have you guys involved in this at the time. But I had a phone call with him and he was trying to get me to pay the money. And it was 17 grand and he wanted Bitcoin. And we cut just a little excerpt of my final conversation with him before the jig was up. Here it is. Are you the sole practitioner or what are you? I'm a public defendant. I work for the state bar here in Massachusetts. In Massachusetts. Okay. Where'd you go to law school? I'm a lawyer too. I went to school in New York, John Jay Long. Oh, really? What year did you graduate?

2:26:08I'm sorry? 73. You graduated law school in 73? You don't sound that old.

2:26:16Oh, yeah, I am.

2:26:21And then he, I asked him where we could pick up Diane and Brad after we, you know, made the payment. and he's telling me that they're in Massachusetts in Cape Cod, you know, at some jail. And he gives me an address in Connecticut. I'm like, Connecticut? They're in Massachusetts. And oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so busy. And the way it finally ended was I finally was like, you know,$17 ,000, a lot of money. We're not really even that close with Diane. And he hung up. It was like the big reveal. He gave it up. He hung up. You realize we were onto him, but it was like kind of shocking that he gave it up.

2:27:02You know, like he went to such lengths. He hired the actress. He was playing the lawyer, her Diane's lawyer. He had somebody at, at the quote courthouse again, in air quotes to pick up the phone and give me the case number and give me an update on like their status. He definitely had at least three players in all of this and three different numbers. like these guys are not kidding around just as elaborate as you think you know they wouldn't be they they will so like i don't know i don't know how they would have figured out that there was the watch at the end of the bed but i'm starting to come around to the to the belief james that the whole thing's a fraud other than the guy who took her go ahead you're gonna say something will yeah i was just gonna say megan you'd be surprised how common those kind of frauds that were perpetrator was attempted against you actually are occurring all over the world.

2:27:53And certainly with the advent of AI, there's an ability that even to capture a small amount of someone's voice from a telephone call or being stood next to them, you can then duplicate that voice, you can create whatever script you want. And so you can make it terribly convincing that you are speaking to someone that you recognize the voice of and believe is that genuine person. Yes. I mean, Well, to be honest, it is possible. It's possible. That's what was done to my mother-in-law. We we've just assumed all this time that it was an actress pretending that she was Diane. But we don't know that.

2:28:31And of course, if you talk to any elderly person, they'll tell you that, you know, the person's like your your granddaughter has been arrested and, you know, like she needs you. And then they're like, which granddaughter? You know, the grandmother's always like, which granddaughter? And then the fraudster will be like, which one do you think it is? You know, to get you to say the names of your granddaughter. It's that one. It's that. Yes, it's little Rachel, whatever. so it's they're they're very sophisticated and they tend to target you know elderly people but in this case they they targeted a famous woman and her siblings and anybody would become instantaneously vulnerable and manipulatable if if you had their parent if they believed you had their parent so i guess it's extremely likely that some fraudster somehow found out about that watch, Chad, and used it to get the money.

2:29:25Because let's face it, the thing about the floodlight is not persuasive at all. Broken floodlight on the outside. If you actually had Nancy, wouldn't you, look at it the other way, wouldn't you have better than this is where the watch was? I'm going to go through a lot more detail that's going to trigger the one that they want, Savannah, to say they know. Whether it is a diamond pendant necklace that is a family heirloom, something that is going to truly give that absolute, we have her, and also that true proof of life. Like all these gentlemen I've talked about who work these complex cases like this, it's just not normal to not give a true proof of life in a situation like that.

2:30:14But do we know, did Nanos or the Bureau ever confirm yes, there was the watch or has that ever been released? No, never been confirmed at all. Just that there were details in the first note that led them to believe this was the actual kidnapper. So in the time we have left, it's just a minute or so. Final theories on what happened to Nancy Guthrie. Chad, you want to go first? yeah so i think uh here we are at the sixth month mark began and i'm going to go with uh kidnap for ransom gone bad um and i think that nancy passed away uh if not that evening shortly after i think initially this was going to be a true kidnap for ransom um and it went bad go ahead well agree with chad yes and always believed it to be the case right from the get-go that this was a kidnap for a ransom.

2:31:10I don't think it's a professional group. I think it's amateurs. I think there is some connectivity to Nancy in some shape or form. Who that might be, we don't know. But I think, unfortunately, Nancy has perished by now. And I think it is a case of there not necessarily being an open line of communication, but sufficient enough for Savannah to try and beseech or plead to whoever may have Nancy to try and retrieve, obviously, Nancy's remains. James? Again, I'm open to being wrong, which is fine, but I have to go with what we don't have. And what we don't have in this case is we don't have fingerprints, we don't have DNA, we don't have cell phone activity, we don't have anything that we would usually have in these cases.

2:31:57It speaks to me, to this South American theft group. I think they got in there. I think something happened. I think they panicked. And I think for some stupid reason, they took that body. But that's the only thing that explains to me why we don't have anything. We have nothing definitive. These people were not amateurs. They had to know what they were doing. And that's the theory I'm working off of. there to steal, but not to steal Nancy. Yeah. I think they were in there to do a burglary. And then I think something happened. They panicked. They said, the hell with the, you know, taking anything.

2:32:30We got to get her out of here to buy time so that, you know, we have, cause she won't be found until the morning type of deal. But if we take her, we got some time. Thank you all gentlemen so much for today and all the times you've helped us to be continued. Don't forget everybody. We have the final two episodes of MK confidential coming up tonight and tomorrow on the trials of Klaus von Bülow. It's about to get really good. Enjoy. We'll see you Monday. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.