NEW Details About Guthrie Kidnapping Investigation, and GOP in Hollywood, with Kelsey Grammer, Brian Entin, Jim Fitzgerald, and Jonathan Gilliam | Ep. 1246

24:10And maybe we'll see some of that today. I don't know. We're T minus half an hour or so until it starts. Brian, you're the best. Love your reporting. Thank you so much for everything. Thank you so much, Megan. I appreciate that. Brian Enten, everybody, check out his YouTube feed because he keeps us on the edge of our seats. He's always walking, always walking. He covered Kohlberger like nobody else, and he's covered this case great as well. Coming up, we've got two former FBI agents to weigh in on that video and the latest developments. Let's talk about something we all want, real peace of mind.

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25:52We're going to break down the latest now with a search for Nancy Guthrie from a law enforcement perspective with two of the best. Former FBI supervisory special agent, Jim Fitzgerald, co-host of the Cold Red podcast, and former Navy SEAL and FBI special agent, Jonathan Gilliam, are with me now. Guys, great to see you, Jim. Welcome back to you as well. So So that video was quite something. I'll kick it off with you, Jim, since you've been our guide through this. What did you make of it? Yeah, it was predictable. And I don't mean that in a bad way. But we talked in the last few days, Megan, about that this was going to be done.

26:27And it was going to be done under advisement of the FBI and the Sheriff's Department, perhaps even some attorneys of the Guthrie family. So it was well facilitated and put together in that regard. The visuals were important and obviously the words were important. The goal was to humanize Mrs. Guthrie to make sure that she is seen as a human being. I don't think they called her Nancy once, if I recall. One time. All right. One time they said her name. Everyone else, every other time was mom, mama, mommy. And that's good. That's healthy. I was glad to see that. I would have advised the victims in this case to do the same thing.

27:10It was all about her fragility, both physically and her heart, certainly in that regard, and her overall health. And I'm glad they brought that up, too. So the important part in that presentation was humanize her, number one, and then say, look, we're open to talk. We're open to discuss this matter. Give us some sort of communication. Now, what we don't know yet, Megan, is are one or more of these notes, these letters, these communications real or the ones we don't even know about that are real? And are there certain words or expressions that the kidnappers, again, we're assuming at this point, perhaps that's what it is, wanted them to put in there?

27:53I know in the D.C. sniper case, Chief Moots was asked to put the line out there. We have the ducks in a noose. I'm paraphrasing. there was an odd spelling of the word noose so there's times that kidnappers they have the control they have the power they want to put people out there uh saying something i also want to know and i'll leave it at this uh i think was that the who was sitting next to savannah i'm not sure who the man was her brother savannah's brother cameron her older brother and he said something at the very end not much and he was wearing a baseball cap but i couldn't make out what the logo was on the cap.

28:29I'm not sure if that's significant or not. It may be nothing. Maybe he always wears a baseball cap wherever he goes. But I would like to know if that is something that the, you know, put a baseball cap on, this means you're willing to do this, that, or the other to try to get mom back. So there are just some very basic sort of signal, possibly speaking. Can I ask you about this line? So Savannah, I mentioned at the top of the hour, it was extraordinary to witness. I mean, it was excruciating. But it was also jarring because, you know, Savannah's manner, her, everything about her was just so different than what we normally see for obvious reasons.

29:06But I also did wonder, you know, there's a reason, Jim, she didn't deviate from that script, right? I mean, like Savannah can absolutely look into camera and speak from the heart, especially on an issue like this, but they probably did not allow that, right? I mean, I would imagine the FBI is saying absolutely not. Yeah, don't go off script. It may not have been written word for word, but certainly bullet points. I have no doubt they rehearsed it. And this is all a positive thing they should have. And did a few different versions. And they no doubt, you know, it was from the heart. She didn't have to fake that.

29:38Of course, we're aware of that, nor her sister, nor her brother. So, but they wanted to make sure the right intonation, the right information was put out there, because they I know, you know, and I'm still going to assume Mrs. Guthrie is alive and and who's ever holding her is in constant contact with her. And I should add here, too, I'm glad that they spoke to her mother. They spoke to their mother directly. You know, mom, if you can hear this, mom, we want you to know we're thinking of you every day. We're praying for you. And so that's important, too. So why? Why are you glad? Well, first of all, if if they allow Mrs.

30:12Guthrie to hear or see this, that's that will be important to her. It would give her something to keep on, keep pushing. And let me just go right off from that too. I'm also glad they said they're willing to talk, but they need some sort of proof. And they even threw out there essentially with AI, there's ways of manipulating these type of pictures. So we want something to know. Our mother, our mama, you know, in different terms is still alive. So they really covered a lot in that, I don't know, three minutes or so. And I think they got everything out there of importance. They were obviously guided well.

30:46And it was clearly from the heart that they put those words together. So, Jonathan, what did you make of it? Did you like there's a set off of quite a debate on whether they're in negotiations with someone already or they're begging to have a conversation with someone? What because they said, you know, we're ready to talk, we're ready to listen. And then there was that line about how, well, images and voices can be manipulated, which kind of suggested that they'd already received one, an image of their mom from this potential kidnapper. I don't know. What was your take on all that? Well, you know, it's interesting because being on this side of law enforcement now out and looking in, as you know, and James would know, we're trying to investigate what the police are actually doing.

31:36We're not just looking at this and analyzing the crime. We're trying to analyze exactly what is being done, and that's a difficult thing. But what I try to do is I take all the possibilities, I put them on a whiteboard, and then I start looking in particular at certain aspects of it. And I try not to narrow it down to one specific thing. But I think in this case, what we can gleam from this is that first, they're taking the possibility that these ransom letters and that this communication is real. So they're taking that seriously. And I think if this was a complete ruse, they might be able to track this pretty quick or they would get a sense of whether or not it was real or not.

32:21But they're taking it seriously. And that's good. Seriously enough where they make a video with the family and put it out. So that leads me to believe that there's a potential that this is actually something that has validity. So then I start looking at statistics of how these things typically work out and who is normally involved. And we don't see a lot of these high profile ransoms and kidnappings anymore. It just doesn't happen that often. I think it has a lot to do with cameras and it has a lot to do with the way that things occur inside the United States. We see these all the time in Mexico.

33:04So that's another point of this is that they are right next to the border. They're very close to the border. So if there is any potential that someone along the way identified her for some reason, I don't think if somebody across the border was just wandering around in these different communities and picked one person at random to take them back over the border. It would be somebody that had to have met her, had an encounter with her or studied for whatever reason who she is to go after her because she has or is connected to somebody that has money. So these are things that I'm starting to look at and the potential for an abduction and a ransom is higher now than it was before the video.

33:51So I can't look at the video and say that it's real, but I can say that the deduction is real, but I can look at it and say the potential there because of this video and the way that the law enforcement is acting, it's leading some credibility to that. Jim, let me play you a soundbite from Savannah's sister, Annie. She spoke a little in the video, not as much as Savannah, but this line kind of jumped out at me as odd. And to your point about the brother wearing the baseball cap, and are there other clues in here? Is it possible they're saying things that they've been asked to say? Just tell me what you think of this.

34:32It's SOT2. The light is missing from our lives. Nancy is our mother. We are her children. She is our beacon. She holds fast to joy in all of life's circumstances. She chooses joy day after day, despite having already passed through great trials of pain and grief. We are always going to be merely human, just normal human people who need our mom.

35:17mama mama if you're listening we need you to come home we miss you okay so that the parts all of that sounded just like strange language to me to be honest it sounded just like not the way you're used to hearing people talk and and in particular where she said, we are always going to be merely human, just normal human people who need our mom. So am I reading too much into this, Jim? Well, as a linguist, forensic linguist who compares language all the time from the manifesto to Ted Kaczynski and, you know, a thousand other cases after that, context is important. How does Annie normally speak or write?

36:02Now, of course, it wouldn't be as contrite and as serious as we have in this particular message right now. But does she tend to maybe wax poetic sometimes in certain conversations. I guess she's a poet. Well, okay, there you go. So that helps. And again, if this is from the heart, I genuinely support what she's saying. I can't imagine, again, there's a lot of supposition here, if there are kidnappers, number one, if they've already reached out, number two, if one of these letters is how they reached out that we know about, as opposed to a communication we don't know about, number three. So are there some instructions in there, including what are they wearing and how are they sitting?

36:41And in the order in which you sit will tell us you mean this, or it'll mean Friday instead of Saturday. It'll mean noon instead of midnight. I'm just throwing out there other cases of which I am familiar over the years in which clues were asked like that. The old days you'd put a response in the classified ads of a newspaper. You're probably not going to see that today, but it could be something on Craigslist or something like that. where they have to put a response in there. And then this was the complimentary advisement to it. But all that aside, kidnap or not, if someone is holding her for some other reason, and we don't know what that would be.

37:16We talked about revenge motives our first day together, Megan. You know, they'd still want to humanize her, as I said. So the sister Annie was very gracious and very loquacious in how she was pronouncing and saying what she said clearly from the heart. and I don't think anyone in the BAU behavioral analysis would have any problem with those, putting those words together in that regard. It seems Samantha - Well, I wasn't trying to indict her. I'm more interested in whether she's sending like a code because just the way she talks is, you know, like maybe she's responding to a kidnapper's demand, like say it this way or I don't know.

37:54I have no idea. It's just the way she phrases things sounds odd to me, but it could be the poet thing. Jonathan, let me ask you about the police activity back at the house yesterday because that took us all by surprise. They released the house to the family, the police did, on Tuesday. Then here we are on Wednesday, and they put the crime scene tape back up around it. They searched the outside in the neighborhood, like right down the road from where this house is. And then they did search Nancy Guthrie's house again for another two hours in the garage, backyard a little, and inside the house for the most part?

38:28You know, there's been this increasing rush by law enforcement to open up these scenes in recent years. I don't understand why that's the case. If you don't know where the person is, it could be an abduction or something could have happened. They could have stashed her on the property. I don't understand why they do these things. I mean, there's still blood on the ground when Brian Enten was up there and the scene was wide open. So I'm not real sure. I look at perhaps they got more information about something and so they decided to lock it down for a few more minutes and then they opened it back up.

39:06So I don't know. These are law enforcement tactics that were not taught to me and I don't understand from an evidence response team going in what type of reasoning they have for shutting it down. Yeah, so what you're saying, Jonathan, is like if you were controlling this crime scene, you would have said no one's going back into that house until we have Nancy Guthrie, or at least until we're much further down on the investigation than we are. Right, because once they have these letters and they start going down this other path of potential abduction, there may be other clues inside that house that they can gather.

39:43Yeah. And so I just would have— That makes sense. I would have held on to that for a little bit longer. But this sheriff has made a couple of mistakes. I'm not putting him down, but he said that it was absolutely not an abduction from across the border. Well, he doesn't know that. So you can't in law enforcement, you can't get ahead of the narrative because the public, the general public is a force multiplier that should be used. And in this case, when they make comments like that, they lose that forward momentum of potential eyes out there looking for things and saying, hey, this is this is interesting.

40:14I might know this. One other thing about Miss Guthrie is that I'd like to know if she took any trips recently. Did she go into Mexico? Did she go overseas anywhere where somebody could have befriended her? Has she met anybody in recent years that are recent months even that anybody knows about that? She talked about meeting somebody. And lastly, is there anybody in that family? I'm still, you know, as a as a hard investigator, I don't play the sympathy card. I look at this and I still look at people sitting next to her on the couch. I'm not saying these people, but as an investigator, I'm looking at everyone.

40:52And so you have the lingo that you're talking about. Where was it? Was it told to her to say it that way? Is she a poet from a law enforcement standpoint? I'm going to be looking at that. And if she starts going into poetry, I'm going to start asking the question of why are we having to make this so flowery at this point? This is a crisis situation. So as an investigator, I'm going to look at every single person that is anywhere around her and any signs of oddity from normal behavior that lead me to any type of clue that I can find. Yeah, you get paid in law enforcement to be suspicious of everyone.

41:32So that's, I mean, literally your job. Jim, on that front, of course, we had Ashley Banfield's reporting, not matched by anybody since, that one senior law enforcement source, who she said is impeccable, told her that Annie's husband, Tomas, may be the prime suspect. The sheriff came out very quickly and dumped all over that report, saying it's irresponsible. We do not have a suspect. We do not have a person of interest. for whatever it's worth. He would say that almost certainly, even if her reporting were true. So we just don't know. But they did change the reporting yesterday per the sheriff on who was the last to see Nancy Guthrie.

42:12He had originally said that her kids dropped her off back at her house on Saturday night at 945 after a church event. And he made a point of telling the New York Times and And then everybody else ran with it. That actually it was Tomas, the husband of Annie Guthrie, who dropped her off, which was a change. Seems to me it may have been pointed, though, with the sheriff, do we really ever know? Can we back up a little bit, Megan, and I'll respond to that. But yesterday, as we ended my appearance on your show, one of the last things we discussed was they better go back. They better make sure they search the house completely, including all the property.

42:50we referred to the John Van A. Ramsey case where the little girl was down in the basement and Megan about two to three hours later they're researching the whole property with the crime tapes whether they listen to your podcast or not who knows but it's very possible that they just said hey we have to make sure that Mrs. Guthrie is nowhere there on the property itself and it could be for other reasons and also it's interesting with the sister Annie and Savannah sort of the abstract versus the pragmatic with the brothers just chipping in a few words at the end there in terms of the poetry part to the more specific with Savannah.

43:23As far as the wording, yeah, now that's very interesting that Tommaso is the one now confirmed to have dropped off Mrs. Guthrie at the house that night. I think we're under the impression that it was the daughter, Annie, who dropped off the mother. Now it's the son-in-law. Now, again, that doesn't put him in the suspect pool. Lots of husbands drop off their mothers in law, you know, after different functions or events. But he had reportedly taken her out for dinner, Annie. And he had taken her out for dinner, which, of course, happens all the time all around the world. And that's the person. It's interesting, though, that the sheriff felt it was important to, you know, add that information to the public and let everyone know about that.

44:06what exactly i heard a big debate yesterday that it's it's they knew the family someone dropped them off and the family told us they dropped them off and the semantic you know content uh and implications of that only because it's the sheriff who i i have no problem with the sheriff he apparently has 50 years in law enforcement but maybe behind the mic is not his strongest suit in a high profile case like that like this we saw that quite frankly in brown university a bunch of PhD people also didn't do a very good job on the on the dais. The investigators were doing good work. Very true. But those folks.

44:40So it gets tricky sometimes. It's one thing putting a statement out. In the case of Saturday night, you know, they did report earlier that the pacemaker stopped communicating with her Apple Watch at 2 a.m., which really would seem to put the time of abduction or removal of Nancy Guthrie from that home at 2, not at 945. So it's interesting And it is important who dropped her off, but it really does appear this crime happened at 2 a.m. And we actually went back and asked a couple of different cardiologists what would happen with the pacemaker. Would it still be communicating with any sort of a central database that her cardiologist could be seeing right now and telling the family she's still alive or not?

45:22And the answer is no, that normally it communicates with a device like an iPhone or an Apple Watch. and that if the person with the pacemaker is removed out of range from that device, then the communication will stop. And it doesn't mean the person has died. It means you're out of range. So unfortunately, we don't think there's some secret option for them to keep tabs on whether Nancy's alive or not, thanks to that pacemaker. It's just a point that had been bothering me all along. And now I think we've gotten to the bottom of it. Go ahead, Jimmy. You were going to say something? No, just adding that those type of connections and interconnectivity with Apple Watches and pacemakers can tell a lot sometimes after a person is recovered.

46:06We'll just leave it at that. But in this case, I'm not sure it has the value for the ongoing investigation, as you just stated. You know, Megan, one thing, one thing is that I think law enforcement needs to start doing this. If we because this is not a typical practice is if we know that she that that pacemaker went off at 2 a.m., they need to look at the distance somebody could have traveled from 2 a.m. to the time that she was reported missing. And they need to alert law enforcement in that circle so that they can start searching from that point in, because those are finite distances that we know.

46:41Instead, everybody rushes to the scene and they search out. If we change these tactics a little bit, I think we might be running into people who are doing nefarious things or finding bodies if they've been dumped a little bit easier. That's a very good point. And we hope that they've done that, though we really don't know. It's not typical in law enforcement. There was a different take on the messaging last night from Andy McCabe, formerly of the FBI deputy director. Listen to what he told CNN last night, SOT7. I feel like this is a fairly strong signal that they do not believe they've had a legitimate ransom demand yet.

47:24Because what you hear the family saying here is we're ready to talk. Reach out to us. We just want to know you have our mother. So that's not something that you would do if you were already in negotiations with someone that you actually thought had the victim. So there is McCabe saying he thinks that that those initial ransom notes may be nonsense and that this was just a raw plea for whoever the kidnapper is to communicate with them. I thought that was an interesting take. It could be the case. I mean, I'm sorry to say it, but it could also very much be the case that somebody killed Nancy Guthrie in the home and removed the body.

48:06Again, we talked about that yesterday, Jim. Jonathan, what do you think of that theory? Yeah, well, first of all, Andy McCabe is totally opposite of what I'm feeling. But, you know, his investigator, I would still listen to what he has to say. But I think that if that video is out there, it's probably they're looking at that pretty seriously. But, yeah, a lot of these people that attack will remove the body, especially if it's a family member, or they'll try to dispose of it and get rid of it in some way, shape or form so that they can destroy any evidence of them being there. And in the case of a lot of these kidnappings, especially the ones that you see in modern time, like down in Mexico, for instance, those people are killed very quickly.

48:48And then but the ransom procedure continues on. And that's what we typically find nowadays. Exactly. So that could be, unfortunately, one of the things that law enforcement has to consider. We should know more in just a short time. We will have a full report on what they say at this press conference. Let's be honest. America can still be a dangerous place and you cannot afford to wait for help when you need it. Sure, you could use a firearm, but in today's America, defending yourself with deadly force can have legal consequences. According to FBI data, 99.9 % of all altercations do not require lethal force.

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50:18We just watched an extraordinary press conference from the FBI and local authorities in Tucson, Arizona, in connection with the disappearance of Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie. There have been several new items released by the police and the FBI there that were not out in the public before. Okay, I'm just going to give you a couple off the top of my head and then we're going to go through them and the sound bites with our panel in one second. He's offered more details on the timeline. Okay, so for the first time, we heard that the doorbell camera disconnected at 147 a.m. And we knew that Nancy would drop back off at her home around 9.45 p.m.

50:58on Saturday night. Now they have it down to 9.48 to 9.50 because they saw that the garage door, there's a timer on it, I guess, was opened at 9.48 and it was closed at 9.50. So that, we believe, is when she got back home. Then he told us for the first time at 1.47 a.m., the doorbell camera disconnected. Boom. That's the beginning of the crime. That's obviously what he's trying to tell us. By 12, 12 a.m., the doorbell software, though they have no video, he now confirmed, but the software did detect a person on camera. They have a written notification from, we were told that it was a Nest camera by Ashley Banfield, that it was a written notification, person on camera, person at the door.

51:45And you'll get that if you have a ring camera or Nest cam. and they don't have video of it because it looks like Nancy Guthrie did not have a subscription to the Nest camera, which is by Google. And in order to get video of any particular moment, you have to have a subscription. Unfortunately, she didn't. And so all we have now, according to the sheriff, is a written record that there was a person at the door at 12, 12 a.m. to text person on camera. Now he did say it could have been an animal. You know, he's not giving complete credibility to the eye of the Nest camera, but we are getting a timeline here.

52:221.47 p.m., doorbell camera disconnects, and then 13, 12, let's see, 20, yeah, so 25 minutes later, right, 13 plus 12, yeah, is 25 minutes later, the software detected a person on camera. So it's interesting to ask yourself what was going on in that time. It was 2.28 a.m. that her pacemaker app showed a disconnection. She got far enough away from it that it stopped communicating with her Apple phone, which was left inside the house. So by 12.28 a.m., we're guessing she was out of the house. All right. So that's about a 45-minute period, 43-minute period entirely that this whole thing went down.

53:13and the sheriff walked us all through it. He also appeared to confirm that they did tow Annie Guthrie's car. He wasn't as clear as we would like. He got very sort of jumbly with his words and seemed to just be saying, oh, is this a matter of course? Yeah, we took a car. Well, the only car we know of is Annie Guthrie's, at least we think we know of, per the Ashley Banfield reporting yesterday that her source was saying police had towed and impounded Annie's car. He was asked about it. He fudged the answer a little bit. We'll get into it. But that was an interesting thing. He said that they have no one of interest and they do not have.

53:54He said, we have no one you would consider a prime suspect. We're just not there. But he's now shifting his on-the-record statements that involved Annie Guthrie's husband Tomas, and I don't know why he's doing that. He went on the record with the New York Times yesterday saying it wasn't Annie Guthrie who dropped her mother back off, which they'd originally reported. It was Tomas. So he made that change himself with the New York Times, picked up everywhere, Fox and Hollywood Reporter, you name it. Now, today he was asked about it, and he wiggled again. Today he shifted to, well, let's just say it was family.

54:33Well, why are we just saying it was family? Who was it? Why would you be shifting it and making a point of that. So there's all sorts of interesting things. And then the FBI agent got out there. And while they'd been so careful about not disclosing any information about the ransom note, I think we now know virtually everything. We know that it set a deadline at 5 p.m. today by which to send the Bitcoin. We know that it named two things. We heard TMZ earlier today say there were things in there that turned out to be true that the writer of the ransom note referenced. and we believe they were actual true references to the crime scene.

55:08And therefore we TMZ are taking it seriously and we believe that law enforcement is. Well, the FBI agent got up there and told us what they were. So we'll play that for you in just a second. Anyway, we learned a lot. We're gonna go through it with Jonathan Gilliam. He's formerly of the FBI himself. Also joining me is Chad Ayers. He's former SWAT team leader. And Jim Fitzgerald is back with me now, former FBI himself and profiler. Guys, thank you for being here. All right, let's just go down the line on what you thought was most interesting, that presser. Chad, let me start with you because we haven't heard from you yet today.

55:39What was your biggest takeaway? Honestly, it's that 5 p.m. deadline that we saw. And Megan, I don't know if you picked up on it. It's almost like the agent went to the rack back there. And it's almost like that rack had a copy of that ransom note in his because they kept going back and looking at it. So whether those are just notes that he's made or did he actually have the ransom note on his person, you know, obviously, or a copy of it, who knows. But the whole idea that is so confusing to me is why, and again, the other panelists hopefully can, you know, give their expertise, but why the wishy-washiness back and forth?

56:17That's the frustrating part. Listen, I get it. We live in a time where viewers, the American people are heavily invested in this case. It almost takes me back to the Kohlberger case and the frustrations that the American people had and the viewers had of what's going on? Why are we not getting the answers that we want? But we do know that Idaho and that agency had a lot going on behind the scenes. So could that be happening? Yes. But I don't know. I feel like from the presser now, sure, we did get a great deal of information on that timeline. But is there more to it? And they are just for the integrity of the investigation, keeping that tight lipped?

56:55I don't know. Now we're on the subject of what was in the ransom note, let me play for you in part that soundbite. Here's the FBI special agent in charge speaking to what appears to have been in there that may have lended credibility to it or maybe not. SOT 103. Why this one? Because this was the ransom that came in and it had facts associated with a deadline with a monetary value they were asking for. So at that point, what were some of those facts? Because there's been a lot of speculation, as you know, if you could set the record straight. Yeah, the ransom itself, one talked about an Apple Watch and one talked about a floodlight.

57:33We're not going to go into specifics. It's very important that we keep this investigation moving forward and we don't want to put more facts out there that others then can use to try to profit from. One talked about an Apple Watch, one talked about a floodlight. But he also said later, Jonathan, that because one of the reporters, I think it was Brian Enten, who was on this show, we were just talking about this issue, raised the issue of, well, when do we think the ransom note was written? Because we all heard that there was an Apple Watch at this scene very early on in this case. And the agent acknowledged that and even acknowledged whatever's in there about a floodlight he said could have been seen from the road.

58:19So what may have started out sounding very credible may not be at all. Anyway, what was your biggest takeaway today? Well, that's right. And that was the questions that I was having. Were those things said? Were they released in a press conference? And so it kind of degrades the reliability of that information. I was wondering if she had an iWatch. A lot of people have an iPhone, have an iWatch, and could be synced. Both of those things could be synced to her pacemaker. But I did take some notes, Megan, if I can go through those real quick about things that I found that were very interesting and very telling.

58:54One is that the FBI did not rule out Bitcoin. Right. So they didn't say that Bitcoin was not an issue. So if that's the case, I'd like to know if any of the relatives have any issue with Bitcoin where they're invested heavily in Bitcoin or they are experts. There's a lot of people that consider themselves experts in Bitcoin. I'd also like to know, at 1.47, it says the camera went offline, but then it says at 2.12, the software detected a person on camera. So I'm kind of confused on that. Were there two cameras? Because we've been told there were two cameras. What camera did they see somebody online?

59:31Did the software detect somebody? Because the camera going offline, perhaps if there was no movement around that area that the camera went offline, and then when somebody moved in front of it, it came back online. They're not clear about that, so I would like some clarification. That's a good point. That's a very good point. I hadn't put that together. If the doorbell camera was disconnected at 1.47 a.m., then how was the software detecting a person on camera at 2.12? Right. So that, to me, I would like to know it because if somebody saw somebody coming from the front or if they were coming from the back.

1:00:10If they came from the back, for instance, that tells me they're sneaking in. If they came from the front, they could still be sneaking in, but it might be the fact that they just walked in the front. So that's, see, these are details that I really want to know in these press conferences that I don't think go above and beyond giving away secrets or information. There's a couple of things. I want to know what family member checked on her. So we know who dropped her off now. Who made the call? Because we've seen - On Sunday morning. On Sunday morning, because we've seen in the past where, I don't know if you know this statistic, but 20 % of the people who call in and report a murder are the people who actually did the murder.

1:00:55What? Yes. And so I would like to know who called in because it's often that it could be the person that had something to do with this? Because as you said earlier in the show, she doesn't attend church. She attends church virtually. So this whole - We think. That's based on one report from the Daily Mail, not yet totally confirmed by all of us. So where did the concern come from? Did somebody call her earlier? Had they not heard from her? And so where did this come up? That was another thing. I would like to know if anybody in the family is under a financial burden. Um, I'd like to know, uh, who benefits from her if she dies.

1:01:37Of course, these are things that are common questions. Uh, and was there any landscaping going on in and around that house? That's how Elizabeth Smart got, uh, targeted was an individual was doing the landscaping and then, uh, came in through a window that was left open. Um, there was no robbery that we know of. So that tells me that this was either a personal issue with getting rid of her for a benefit or because of anger, or it was for a kidnapping and a ransom. But the ransom thing is, it just doesn't happen that often anymore. So that would be, that's a whole nother game to kidnap somebody for a ransom.

1:02:19That is a huge game. And that is something that gets very technical, very quick. And you have to be a very smart criminal to carry that out. But what we typically see is that people who commit a crime, such as a killing or a kidnapping or a robbery, will use a ruse such as some type of a ransom. And so that's why I want to know who in that family or who that they know may know about Bitcoin, because either they're the ones going to benefit from it or they're the ones using it for a ruse. So these are questions that I had that came through all this stuff. TMZ did verify that the Bitcoin account that was mentioned in the ransom notes is a legit account, but they're so hard to trace.

1:03:03You were going to say something, Chad. Yeah. Now, was I under the impression that she was, and do we know the distance between their residence and where she went to her daughter's residence? Because it was - 10 minutes, according to Brian Enten. Okay. And didn't they mention that there was an Uber driver took her there. But then Uber driver took her to the daughter's and son-in-law's house for dinner. And then we were told by this sheriff in the New York Times yesterday, the son-in-law brought her home. And now today he wouldn't go that far. Today he was specifically asked who brought her home and he wouldn't say it.

1:03:46It's, I don't know why we'll play it in a second. We're still getting all of our sound bites. together. He also was asked, as I mentioned, are you specifically looking into the son-in-law? And here's what he said, SOT 107. Are you actively investigating the son-in-law in this case? There were reports earlier this week and you refuted that. You said you haven't eliminated everybody. Have you eliminated him or come close to it? Or are you actually looking at him? We're actively looking at everybody we come across in this case. Everybody. We would be irresponsible if we didn't talk to everybody. The Uber driver, the gardener, the pool person, whoever.

1:04:29Okay, so he didn't, I'm going to bring Jim in a second, but Chad, he did not, he didn't rule him out. He said, we're talking to everybody. Yeah, but Megan, what did you make of that? Well, here's the thing. He's also said, we believe, either him or the FBI agent says, we believe she's still alive. And if he is our prime suspect, then he's not acting alone. If we believe she's still alive, well, where is she and who's got custody of her? If that's the case and you're telling the American people, we believe she is still alive, but we know where the son-in-law is well what then then they're they're not acting alone megan well i mean i see what you're saying if she's well i mean he could have like a worst case scenario if if it's somebody close to the family or in the family they could have hidden her someplace or and be keeping her in some sort of a you know prison a makeshift prison which would free him up but the cops are all over him right now there's no you're right i mean like if he did this, they're all over him.

1:05:32The media is all over him. There's no like going and checking on your kidnapped charge. If, if he's taking care of her at all in order to get proof of life, this is just a completely imagined scenario. He would need, he would need some help. Here is, um, here is a question to the sheriff about proof of life and whether Nancy's alive. Here's SOT 102. Sheriff over here, has there been any proof of life and has there been any sign of life? I'm going to do anything to deal with the ransom notes and that. I would defer to the FBI. But no, to my knowledge, we're still looking for Nancy. OK, so, Jim, your thoughts on what we witnessed today?

1:06:19Yeah, not only the profiler, but the forensic linguist. And he would really like to see that letter. I think there may be so many clues in that. I don't know if it's five sentences or or 15 or more. There's definitely some information in there that I think someone who knows language could determine a lot from it. I also find it odd that there are two deadlines listed, like five o 'clock today, but then we really mean it by Monday afternoon. Usually, kidnap, ransom, again, there aren't that many of these that are legitimate. They are very demonstrative and deliberate. And here's our demands. You will not violate it.

1:06:55There can be give and take room to go back and forth, the amount, the time frame, whatever. But usually they want to set up their control. Here's exactly what we want and when we want it. Interestingly, Megan, about 20 years ago, still in the FBI, I developed an acronym called POMIC. And it's it stands for a lot of syllables here. Post offense, manipulation of investigation, communication. You see why I made it an acronym. And what that basically is when a crime is committed to cover it up, to make it stage, look like it's going somewhere else. People will write a letter, send it to the police, lawyers, the media, leave it somewhere to be found.

1:07:35And that is designed to misdirect the investigation. So I'm not ruling out that this is a legitimate kidnapping ransom communication. It may be. But it also could be either a BS, someone playing games with it just for fun, kicks and giggles, or somebody else who was involved in the abduction. and Megan, the first couple of minutes we spoke, we delineated this abduction was for one of two reasons, for profit or for revenge. And if it is a revenge thing and they decide, hey, people are getting close, let me put this bogus thing out to TMZ and some other news station and make it look like it's a real kidnapping when it may not be.

1:08:16But nonetheless, having said that, the FBI has to follow through and go every method they can to determine the providence of that communication and who wrote it. So there was an interesting comment by TMZ where they said, they basically said that the letters told us, we don't want to talk. Just give us our money. Listen here. This is today from TMZ, Sat 116. So the final thing about the letter, and again, we're not going to get into all the details, but when the family is reaching out to say we're ready to talk this letter suggests no talk that right that was made clear right at the beginning yeah and so i i think that the family sitting down and speaking that way that um they are trying to change the minds of the abductors and hoping that they actually will, one, provide that proof of life.

1:09:18But also, clearly, there was an attempt to humanize not just Nancy, but also themselves, to say, look, we desperately want our mother back. All right, so hold on to that in your head and listen to Sat 108 from the FBI. There's the ransom note that you're working to establish any communication protocols.

1:09:44no it does not and that is what i think is important that if someone has nancy and is demanding the ransom that there is communication with the family um we talked about there is has been no proof of life um and there was no other demands within that letter so um they're still waiting for communication. So there it is, Jim. If this is the actual hostage taker, if she's being held hostage and the ransom note is from her kidnapper, that person doesn't want to talk. He just wants his Bitcoin. But I'll play both sides of the coin here, Megan. If it's also someone covering up their revenge abduction of this person, they don't want to talk either because it's a better way to identify them and pick up some kind of a motive.

1:10:35So very convenient to put in the letter, the communication, I don't want to talk. Again, they can argue in both directions or neither direction. But nonetheless, it's not uncommon for people to write. Again, these letters are very rare. These communications, the Lindbergh kidnapping had about a half a dozen different communications. But again, there was no social media back then. Even phone telephones were in the early days. So now it's a little bit different. and we'll see if some other communication comes in. If they want the money, they put a lot of effort into this case. This is a high risk crime.

1:11:07If they want the money, they're not going to harm Mrs. Guthrie and they're going to somehow further communicate with the family. Otherwise, this is all for naught, all risk with no gain if in fact they don't get the money out of this. So they may want to consider talking to the family. Did you, I know you got to leave shortly, Jim. Did you take anything away from that presser? Like they've got a suspect or a person of interest and they're just not telling us or they're much further along in this investigation and they're just not telling us? Well, and I'll speak for Chad here. We know there's stuff they're not telling us.

1:11:42No ends if or buts. And I don't blame them for that. I respect them for that. And we're just working off the crumbs that they're putting out there and what we know from our own experience. I think we can say this pretty definitively at this point, Megan, and I may just leave you with this. Whoever took Mrs. Guthrie was inside that home or is associated with someone very close to that home who was inside that home. That's why they knew there was no subscription service on their on their camera system. Smashing it is one thing that keeps any subsequent images coming up, perhaps. But maybe just done out of habit.

1:12:21But if they knew there was no subscription service, just walking up to the door, even with a mask on, whatever, it could be risky in that regard. So I think this all goes back to they have the police have a list of all the people. Some one of the one of those people or one of those people's associates were somehow involved in this crime. Easier said than done. The proverbial needle in a haystack. And you need probable cause to take things to a next step. Search warrants and all. But they probably have a pretty viable suspect pool. It's just narrowing it all down, maybe crossing country lines, international lines with Mexico, which makes it, of course, more difficult in that regard.

1:13:00But whether it's a real abduction or it is a real abduction, whether it's for profit or for some kind of revenge motive, someone knows who did this or at least knows or that person who was in the house knows someone who did this. And that's where the police have to really focus. And it could be hundreds of people. My goodness. Jim Fitzgerald, thank you. We'll talk to you tomorrow, I'm sure. We appreciate it. You're welcome, Megan. Chad, the other, I mean, you know, Jim is saying if somebody kidnapped her, it's for hostage, it's for money or it's for revenge. Like they hated Savannah and wanted to punish her or they hated Annie or Cameron, the brother or sister, or they hated Nancy Guthrie for some reason, right?

1:13:44Like the other possibility is that they killed Nancy Guthrie and then they just decided to get rid of the body. Like they just thought it would be easier to not have a body, to just let people wonder, you know, maybe there was a panic thing. Like, oh my God, I got to get rid of the evidence. You know, maybe the person left DNA on Nancy's body, like with a strangulation or something like possible touch DNA. And I'm just thinking about the possible scenarios and then felt, oh, my God, I've got to get rid of the evidence here and then just allowed it to play out as a kidnapping and possibly was behind that ransom note and or possibly wasn't.

1:14:24There could definitely be people taking advantage of this situation. See if they can't get Savannah Guthrie to wire them a few million bucks in Bitcoin. There's nothing clear about this. And, you know, the law enforcement community, even here in the upstate of South Carolina, you know, we've talked about this. We've got group chats going on of everyone's opinion, and everyone is under the same impression. We just don't know. Anything could be out there. But Megan, listen, what I appreciate about you, you're one that always shoots people straight. You don't hold back. And I think, honestly, I mean, it's really hard for me, coming from a law enforcement background and someone who has worked homicides, who is part of two high-risk hostage rescues.

1:15:09hostage situation or i'm sorry kidnappings like jim said they're far viewed between this isn't hollywood we don't get these types of calls and and we don't get these types of cases all the time very rarely did this happen in the country um i think if i'm being real i i don't think nancy guthrie's still alive i don't either and it breaks and and to hear and i and again i i don't know about the brother. I think it's odd again, back to the Uber there. Why didn't she just Uber back? You know, was he driving her, you know, back just to kind of case it one more time to see if there's any cars parked on the street?

1:15:47I don't know. These are all questions that I have. But what I do know is you saw at least, and again, I'm not a judgment, I'm not a behavioral analysis, but what we did see last night, Megan, was a broken family. All right. Whether or not The one sister was truly broken. We don't know. I don't want to put words. But what we did see is this family that is just broken, and they want answers. And personally, though, you know, my frustration, I am so glad that the sheriff has, and that President Trump and Kashmir Patel are putting these resources there, because personally, I feel like that sheriff is in over his head just a little bit.

1:16:27Yeah, yeah, Chad, I totally agree. I'm so sad to believe it, but I don't believe she's still with us. I agree with everything you said. I think that the kidnapping for ransom, it sounds very Hollywood. I don't remember it happening anything close to this scale or anything in my lifetime. Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped and miraculously was found. But I mean, you can name one hand and kind of like, yeah, the number of times that's happened. And however, murders, especially of family members, again, I do not, I'm not saying it's the brother-in-law. I don't know who it was, but it could be an extended family.

1:17:09It could be somebody else. Could be a worker in the house. She pissed off or didn't pay on time or just crossed in the wrong way, even though she sounds like she was an absolutely lovely woman, is ideally worth talking present tense. Murders happen all the time, unlike kidnappings for money, all the time. And I can absolutely see how in today's day and age, somebody would then hide the body. Because like this person definitely didn't want to get caught. They broke the ring cameras, we think, before the murder was committed, right? I mean, I guess we don't know that for sure, right? Because what we do know on the timeline is 147, doorbell camera disconnects, 212, software detects person on camera.

1:17:57So, yeah, it is confusing. How could the disconnection happen before? Maybe we have those two times. Are those two times juxtaposed or something? Do I have my notes wrong? I wrote it down from the screen. Yeah, I have it here, too. 1.47 a.m., doorbell cam disconnects, 2.12, software detects a person on camera. How is that possible? Well, in any event, the point is we have every reason to believe that the crime happened right around 2 a.m. and that the person actively took steps to cover it up. So it does make it seem like whoever did it didn't just, like, panic. Like, they were like, I've got to do some things to sort of cover up my crime and make sure my story looks clean.

1:18:40So one thing I do want to bring up that I was talking to a crime scene investigator, and they were analyzing the blood droplets that were seen on the front porch. And this is what they said. They said, they sent a picture. They said, Chad, listen, if anything else, what I can see from this photo is the blood spatter tells me she was up and walking when it fell. It hits at a 90 degree angle or close, which means the blood was falling straight down, which usually you see when someone has blood dripping off of them while they are walking. Well, that's kind of encouraging, right? Exactly. And listen, with the blood things, we also see elderly people, right?

1:19:26Their skin tears very easily. It's very easy for them to get a bump or bruise or was there an actual struggle inside the house? I don't know. But again, this is a crime scene person that told me that. So maybe she did walk out on her own. Look, Megan, you and I are both people of faith and I'm not ceasing to stop praying until we come to a conclusion on this. I want to play some of these other soundbites, because there's other nuggets in here that are kind of interesting to me. We had Ashley report yesterday that her source told her the net. She said they were nest cameras and that they were both smashed.

1:20:11She said they were smashed and that then law enforcement, we believe, removed them. The sheriff seemed to deny that here in SOT 101. The doorbell camera, it was removed. We know that, but we're not confirming that any cameras were smashed or destroyed around the house. I don't know where that came from, but that's something we're not confirming. So we're not confirming. Why wouldn't he confirm a smashed camera? I have absolutely no idea. That doesn't jeopardize the integrity of the investigation at all. Unless, you know. I mean, he's giving us the timeline earlier of doorbell camera disconnects.

1:20:59So it's like, how did he, did they have like a bomb technician in there cutting the red wire, but not the green one? It's like, obviously somebody did something to it. So what's that about? Yeah, that's what I can't figure out. I do find it interesting. And I like that either Jonathan or Jim mentioned was the fact that she didn't have a subscription. Right. Very few people would know that. only close personal. And I don't even think workers, because at first, when I first started diving into this case, first thing that comes to mind is home healthcare workers, people that are in the house a lot of times that see maybe jewelry or anything around there.

1:21:39That comes to mind first. But with the subscription aspect, it gives just another layer of someone who probably knew. And again, but smash versus unsmash, I have no idea. Okay. And what about, let me play you the soundbite about the car, because we're back on Ashley's reporting where she said her law enforcement source told her that Annie Guthrie's car had been towed and impounded, whatever that means, you know, just like kept at the lot, not returned to her. Brian Enten couldn't confirm that. He said he wasn't sure. having like he could see one car at Annie Guthrie's residence, but that didn't mean that the other car wasn't inside the garage.

1:22:22And the issue of a car being towed away did come up today, not as clearly as we would like. But here's how it went down. The car, the car that was at the home, it's just standard investigative practices. It's part of the search warrant scene court orders. We pull it out of there and do our scene processing with the vehicle. Okay. Deb, do we know what the question was leading into that? Because, like, that's, did somebody say, did they tow the car?

1:23:00Yeah, that's right. That's right. My producer, Lawrence, reminded me, he just threw that out there, Chad. It wasn't in response to a question. It was like he was just clarifying a couple things and just says, the car. Okay. Whose car? Where? Well, let's think about what was the key piece of evidence in the Alec Murdoch case. The computer and the car, right? So if the family is saying, we took her home at 9.48 p.m., I watched her walk inside at 9.50, She put the garage door down. At that point, the vehicle, unless they're driving a 1950 vehicle, they're going to be able to pull the data. Did that car leave the house again later on in the evening?

1:23:48And a full processing of the vehicle as well. But I'm telling you, the day and age of driving your vehicle and committing a crime, that's over with. So could that be it? Are they searching for DNA? But again, with the DNA aspect, I feel like with the FBI's crime lab, since they're already getting pieces of DNA back, if they're sending off samples or pulling up carpet or mats in the car, that should be back by now. Yeah, they would possibly know. And the other thing is in defense of the brother-in-law, I don't mean to dump on the brother-in-law because it's just one report and unconfirmed. I keep Savannah's brother-in-law, Nancy's son-in-law.

1:24:26But in in his defense, they almost certainly would have said to him on Sunday, maybe Monday at the latest. Let me see your cell phone. Like, let me have it. And I'm sure he would have turned it over. Even if he had done something, it would have been so, you know, make whatever. It would have made him look guilty to say no, would have been so incriminating to say no. And so by now they would have run that whole thing. Your phone, they know when you put it down to go to sleep. They know when it was at rest. They know when it was upright, like on you and you're walking around with it. They know everything that Alex Murdoch case showed us that.

1:25:01Like they can, they could tell when they could tell how fast he was walking around his kitchen. Like if this guy got up in the middle of the night and went over to his mother-in-law's house, if he took his phone and maybe he was smart enough not to do that, if this is, if he was involved, they would know. Now, if he left his phone sitting on his bedside table and never touched it, it's more difficult. But if he took the family car over there, you're exactly right. It's like taking your phone with you because that thing is recording a bunch of data too. Yeah, 100%. So again, there's no getting past that.

1:25:37Also, I'm sure when we talk about diving into forensic evidence, it does make it hard to believe. And personally, as an investigator, I would take that phone, I would dump it. I'm going to give that phone back and probably wait a few days. And then I'm going to take that phone and get a search warrant and ask for it again. What is this, you know, and again, I know we keep going back to the son-in-law just because that's, you know, seems to be a person that's been mentioned several times. What is that person looking at in the following days afterwards? What are they researching on Google then? It's true.

1:26:16They do that all the time. It's amazing. Like, if you listen to Dateline, you know that so often when a crime is committed, whoever is the perpetrator will go online on their phone thinking it's fine to Google, how do I cover up murder? You know, I mean, it's crazy what people will do, but you see it over and over. Well, do we know who actually went into, so it says 1156 family checks on Nancy. All right. Did they go? That's a new time, by the way. We were told before that the family got a call like around 1110 and that they went right over to check her house for her. And the sheriff even said it as presser the other day.

1:26:56Excuse me. Oh, you know, it took them a while. They didn't call us right away because they're looking for her. And I mean, to me, that made sense. You before you call the police, you're like you're checking everywhere. Like, did she trip and fall in the backyard? Did she go for a walk or something like I would check everywhere before I involve police? But today it changed to 11.56 a.m. The family, I can't read my own writing, checks. The family checks on Nancy. She's missing, 11.56 a.m. And then he says at 12.03 p.m. So seven minutes later, they call the sheriff. That was a new revision of the timeline.

1:27:35Why? Exactly, because those calls are date stamped. He knew the other day. Like you said, I agree. That's a short time frame. I mean, we've got a large home. We've got a backyard. Wouldn't you assume if you come in? Now, I guess, Megan, the only caveat to this could be when they approached the front door and they saw the blood droplets spatter, they realized, uh-oh, this isn't normal. So now we're going to call. In a normal situation, you would think they'd walk over to the neighbors. Hey, did you see mom? Call EMS. Hey, did y 'all happen to transport anyone? Call the local hospitals. Okay, but let me just say something, Chad.

1:28:13Let me just say something about that. I'm very, again, very open-minded to this is some guy from Mexico. It's a landscaper. I don't, it's some rando. It's the guy who trespassed on the 90-year-old's lawn a month earlier or sometime within the month of January. I have no idea. But I will say this in the other lane that it's possibly a family member. The original story was definitely that she didn't show up, that the family was told around 1110, she didn't show up at church, and that they spent about an hour looking for her and then called the cops. That's what the sheriff told us. But then what I've seen all over the Internet over the past few days is people saying, unlike me, who are unlike I would wait before I called the cops, all these other people saying, who waits an hour to call the police over their missing elderly mother?

1:28:59and there have been a lot of people online who found that very suspicious. So I have to say, you know, I think it's just those two, Annie and Tomas at this point. Savannah, I presume, was in New York. She was about to go to the Olympics this week. She had a big week in New York. I haven't heard any reports that she was out there already visiting the mom. So I think it's just Annie and the husband, Tomas, are the ones who come on scene and call the sheriff. Are they the ones who changed the timeline? Are they the ones who changed it from we looked for an hour to, oh, no, no, no. It was 1157 that we got to the house and we saw she wasn't there and we called within seven minutes.

1:29:40I don't know, but nobody asked about that change in the timeline. Yeah, and I think it's important too. What's the daughter's name? Annie. Annie. Annie and Tomas. Did they have ring doorbells as well? And do they have young children? Because if they have young children, you know who doesn't know how to lie very well? young kids. Hey, the other day, did mom or dad leave at a certain time? You know, these are questions that I would want to ask, you know, whenever I would work, you know, roll up to a domestic kind of call, you separate parties. You know who I'd talk to if I talked to the husband or the wife, I'd talk to the kids because kids are usually good at telling the truth in situations like this.

1:30:17That's so true. Well, and also their phones on Sunday. Now, if they're not, if he's not using his phone or she's not using her phone on Sunday, that's suspicious. I mean, everybody picks up their phone when they get up. You know, it's like, sadly, it's an appendage now. So I think those phones will show us. And maybe they've already looked at that and ruled them out, although he wouldn't say he'd ruled anybody out. He specifically said they had not ruled anybody out. But you would think that the phone movement on Sunday might show them exactly what the movements were and when this alleged call came in from the person at the church, because now there's conflicting information on that.

1:30:51This is another thing nobody asked about today at the presser. The original reporting was that she didn't show up at the church and a concerned churchgoer who knows she's always there called the family. And then the family went to the home around 1110. I think there's a 1045 mass, went to the home, blah, blah, blah. But now the Daily Mail, just one source reporting based on one source of theirs. Okay. So one newspaper with One source says that Nancy Guthrie had not been going to church physically since COVID, that she'd been live streaming it. Not even like Zooming where the churchgoers can see you, but just like watching the church's live stream on her like home TV or computer.

1:31:41And that there'd be no way for anybody at the church to know she wasn't participating. Now, Brian Enten raised a good point today when I discussed that with him saying, I just assumed whoever said that, like she hasn't been coming since COVID, did not realize she'd probably moved churches. You know, and I do that. I go to more than one church, depending on what my kids' schedules are on Sunday and their sports and all that. But like, that's another possibility we have to keep in mind. I can't go right to the nefarious place. Like somebody lied. But it is an interesting possibility that she was not physically ever at church and nobody noticed that she wasn't at church.

1:32:14And if that's true, Chad, then we really do have some hard questions for Annie and Tomas. Like, how did you know something was wrong on Sunday morning? Exactly. So what are y 'all's routines on Sunday as a family? You live 10 minutes down the road. Do you typically come over after church and have lunch like I did at my grandmother's house growing up? Um, but again, if that is the case, 100 % tough questions are going to have to be asked. Um, we're looking it up because we actually, I had my team go back and check the actual church name that was, if it was said by the sheriff initially that she was supposed to be at, but didn't show up at on Sunday.

1:33:01And then I believe the Daily Mail mentioned the church that she had not gone to since COVID. So we're going to do that comparison right now. So, oh, Mike's just coming in. Hold on a second. All reporting states that Nancy Guthrie attended St. Andrew's Presbyterian. Okay, so it's, right now, it's not looking like it's a different church. The Daily Mail source is from that church, and that's the church the sheriff mentioned that she always goes to. Now, just because one person told the Daily Mail Nancy Guthrie stopped going in person and that she was doing live streaming since COVID doesn't mean it's true either.

1:33:34I mean, I will say, like, if my church is any, if there's just anything like mine, you do kind of know who do, because I see the same faces. And if you know them, you would notice if they weren't there. Our priest just the other weekend when we had that big snowstorm was like, we all went to 5.30 mass the night before, 5.15 mass the night before. And he was like, oh, I'm seeing all the people. You guys are from the 9.30. You guys are from the 10.45. You know, like you do kind of know. And when it's an elderly woman, I think a lot of us keep tabs on them for their families. You know, like just, obviously we, we, what'd you say, Steve?

1:34:08Okay. Oh, really? Oh, that's interesting. My executive producer, Steve Krakauer, just confirming in my ear that now Brian Enten of NewsNation is confirming the Daily Mail report that Nancy Guthrie had not been attending in person since COVID, her church, and that she was live streaming the church service. So, I mean, honestly, maybe there's some innocent explanation for this that we're not thinking of right now, but that to me is a huge red flag, Chad. I agree. I mean, was it someone that just misspoke or someone trying to get their name out there to get involved in this case? I'm not sure. But certainly, that's going to be able to be deciphered pretty quickly by law enforcement.

1:34:57What I haven't seen a lot of— And the church, I should point out, the church is not commenting. The church has been contacted in a few of these reports that I've seen so far, and they just keep saying, we love Nancy and we're not going to comment. So clearly they've been contacted by law enforcement and they are keeping their mouths shut, which is proper. But that's also interesting. Sorry, keep going. No, you know, as we expand and look at all possibilities here, you've mentioned it. You know, we're less than probably an hour from the border. We do know that the cartel dabbles and does a lot of transactions via cryptocurrency.

1:35:34But I still go back to why. Why, Nancy? Why an 84-year-old woman in this situation? But I do, you know, I will say this. I truly believe, and we all agree, there is more than they are sharing. And I appreciate that. I respect that. but hopefully we get some solid answers quick. Here's the soundbite I've been waiting for. I mentioned it three times that they originally said that Annie dropped the mom off back at her house on Saturday night. And then yesterday the sheriff made a point of telling the New York Times, I want to update my reporting. It was actually Tomas and everybody ran with that.

1:36:20Cause that wasn't material change, especially in the light of Ashley's reporting. It was like, OK, I'm hearing that name for the second time. Then today came up again and the sheriff wiggled on it. Very interestingly, it's that one twelve. You know, there's also conflicting reports about who was the last person to actually see Nancy and drive her home. We know she took an Uber to Annie's house, but can't confirm whether it was Annie or her son-in-law also took her home. I think the timeline that the sheriff provided was a family member, but just family. We're going to go with family. Well, we're going to go with Chad.

1:36:55That's very strange. I mean, he said it. He explicitly said it on camera. I'm going to quote you from the New York Times piece, the headline of which was search for Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's mother grows more urgent. And then he this is the quote. This is a perfect quote. Ms. Guthrie's son-in-law, Tommaso Sione, dropped her off and ensured she made it inside safely before leaving, the sheriff added. He was on the record with the New York Times, and that was 100 % different. They had said it was Annie earlier, or in some cases they had said family. But here he's getting specific with the New York Times, saying it was Tommaso Sione, the son-in-law, And he made sure that she made it inside, ensured she made it inside safely before leaving the sheriff added.

1:37:43And so now, can we just play one more time? Why is he doing that at 1-12? It's not 1-12. You know, there's also conflicting reports about who was the last person to actually see Nancy and drive her home. We know she took an Uber to Annie's house. But can't confirm whether it was Annie or her son-in-law to also took her home. I think the timeline that the sheriff provided was a family member. Just family. We're going to go with family. I mean, the words we're going to go with, Chad, are doing a lot of work there. Well, what I want to go with is I want to know who was the last person to see Nancy Guthrie.

1:38:17This is criminal investigation 101. Start there. So why is there so much BS and changing of stories? That's frustrating. And it's really hard for individuals like myself and the other guests to kind of start piecing this thing together when every other presser were getting different intel or information coming in. diametrically opposed. She was grabbed from her bed. No, she wasn't grabbed from her bed. Like completely reversed himself on that. And there've been quite a few things that the sheriff is. He acknowledged making mistakes. I'll say something in Tomas's defense, though. Maybe the sheriff changed it back to family because he realized there's too much heat coming down on this guy.

1:38:57I don't think he's our guy. I'm like trying without ruling anybody out because I can't totally know that he didn't do it at this point. I'm trying to remove him from the front burner in a polite way, but he doesn't, he underestimates the media's attention to detail. Yeah, I totally agree. It's, do we know, which I haven't been able to research, what does Tomas or whatever his name is do for a living? He is, last we checked, he was a part-time teacher in middle school, a sixth and eighth grade, part-time, I believe. And then his wife is a poet. They live in, I think, a$600 ,000 house that they either they got married in 2006 and or they purchased the house back then.

1:39:42But the mother's house is worth a million dollars now, but they've been living in it since 1992. By my math, Savannah's dad died in 1989 or 90. So my guess is, I don't think the mother has any sort of an income. My guess is she used her husband's insurance money. And she bought that house, which wasn't a million dollars back in 1991 or two. And she's been living in it ever since. And I'll bet you that the sister's house, 10 minutes away, wasn't$600 ,000 when she bought it either, probably appreciated in value. But this is not a rich couple. And look, I can speak to this. Obviously, I'm making a healthy living in my line of work.

1:40:26But my sister, my dear sister, who died a couple of years ago, who is six years older than I am, um she didn't have money she didn't have a professionally successful life and i helped support her for all of her adulthood and so i don't know whether they're in that situation i confess to you when i saw the sister i wondered because she she she looked i don't know she looked they all look rough around the edges right now because they're grieving but i just i wonder i don't think the sister is a woman of means and i just wonder what the real dynamic there is Savannah is staying with her, we believe, and Tomas.

1:41:07So, I mean, you do have to say, like, if I were staying with my sister and I thought that her husband may have had something to do with kidnapping or worse, with my mom, I'd think of a reason to go to the hotel. So that's something in their favor, too. And the only reason that they're so under the scrutiny right now is that we got nobody else. I mean, we should spend some time on the weird guy who crossed into the 90-year-old's lawn in January because that is disturbing. Not a single person asked about that either today. But there was a 90-year-old couple doors down from Nancy Guthrie who saw a trespasser come on his lawn and he turned on the floodlight, good for him, and scared the guy off.

1:41:51He took off. And Tucson, notwithstanding, yesterday I went to talk to Ashley. She was like, oh, Tucson, they don't see a lot of murders. You should see my inbox. All my listeners and viewers in Tucson are like, is she kidding me? Like, I really, I don't think I've ever been to Tucson, but they were basically like, it's a hellhole. You should see the number of crimes we have. Well, and again, that takes you back to, well, what kind of life insurance policy did Nancy have, right? Because if that's going to take me back to the family versus a random type of attack. But, and again, let's just stay with the family angle.

1:42:24if she does have a life insurance policy, is the ransom note with the Bitcoin just to throw off law enforcement? I don't know, but you're right. One thing we do know is diving in and getting information from these cryptocurrency places is extremely, extremely difficult. Forget it. We did a whole week on people's fraud stories, like people who had been defrauded or almost defrauded. And we were on there. We did not get defrauded, but they tried to defraud me and my husband and my husband's family, his mom was the target. But in any event, they wanted Bitcoin from us, which was one of our first clues that we were like, uh-oh.

1:43:03But that we did take a deep dive into the Bitcoin thing. And it's like, you put money in there, it's gone. It is not traceable. Like the cops were like, never, ever give money via Bitcoin. It's not traceable. You'll never get it back. And you'll never figure out who you sent it to. I was like, how is this allowed? You're right. But what I do know is that in every crime, I would say the suspect is going to mess up. There's going to be something left, whether like we mentioned, touch DNA. You know, I don't care if you wear gloves and a Tyvek suit. Something, something is, it was left. There is some type of DNA evidence somewhere in that residence.

1:43:49Look, we saw it from the Cole Berger case with the knife sheath and then using the genealogy testing. Look, I hope it's not the family. I truly do. But again, no stone was going to go unturned. We heard the sheriff say that. I am just glad that the FBI is there utilizing their resources. We have the ability to use cell phone triangulation to see what cell phones were in that area during that time frame. And again, that's not saying someone took a cell phone, but I will feel a lot better once we get the data back from all families' vehicles that live in the area, cell phone, diving into those, his computer, his Chromebook at school.

1:44:32I want to dive into that. We have to eliminate, we have to eliminate them as a suspect to begin with. Once we do that, I feel like then we can dive into some deeper waters here. I agree with that. I agree with that totally. And look, this is what, I'm an addict to Dateline, which is an NBC crime show. And every single Dateline will tell you the very first thing you have to do is rule out the immediate family. And I'm sure that's what the sheriff's working on. That's what we're discussing because there is a report by not some nutcase. Ashley Banfield is a very serious crime reporter. I've been following her avidly for 20 years.

1:45:11She does not just throw things on the board this serious, understanding what you're potentially doing to this grieving family member, if you're wrong, without really trusting her source. And she, not only did she say extremely laudatory things about the source, I then asked her after the sheriff came out and clearly denied your reporting and called it irresponsible, Did you go back to your source? And she said, yep, I did. And he stood by his comments and said, they're all clamming up. So that's where that is. Again, for what it's worth, nobody else has matched it. We don't know. That could be because it's wrong and it could be good because they're all clamming up.

1:45:48We just don't know. Just a couple of other items from the presser. They've offered a$50 ,000 reward now. That was interesting, Chad. Like, why now? It was$2 ,500. as of two days ago, what's going on now? Now it's$50 ,000? I think they're just struggling to get solid evidence and solid intel on this thing. And they are hoping, listen,$50 ,000 is a lot of money to a lot of people. It's a lot of money to me. And if someone is sitting, because personally, and I know everyone's got their opinion on this, I don't believe this was a one-man show acting completely on their own. I just don't. And I think that possibly loose lips sink ships, and someone's probably – my expertise also is on the active shootery side.

1:46:42We've talked about that in the past. But a large percent of people who commit acts either say something to someone they trust. Very few people can keep something in. And let me assure you, whoever this is, unless it is some cartel hitman, anybody that has somewhat of a soul sooner or later finds a breaking point. And having to close your eyes every night and seeing certain images comes, you know, it eats away at you. And sooner or later, you feel like you just got to share in confidence to somebody. And maybe that's what the money is there for, is just to try to incite someone to come forward with something more solid so they can have probable cause to make an arrest on someone.

1:47:25Well, that's the other thing that we haven't discussed, and I'm probably avoiding it for a reason. I know for a fact Savannah's got some deranged people who follow her and who have posed a threat to her in the security department. I'm not revealing anything I learned at NBC, by the way. This was given to me recently by a tipster. Um, and that's not unusual. I mean, that's, you could probably say that for virtually any major figure on camera, on TV or, you know, in the news. And so like, there really is a chance that some nutcase obsessed with her realizing they couldn't get to her, Chad, because, you know, of course, Savannah's got the proper security precautions in her life.

1:48:08She's got young children decided to go after her mom. I mean, that's got to be an angle that the FBI, I guess, would be pursuing that right now, looking into any threat she'd received. I know that there have been stalkers and incarcerations. So all of that, each one of those has got to be tracked down and followed up on. I think, and there's ways and programs out there. I would dive into her social media? Who's been liking, you know, is there a repeated person that's liking a bunch of photos? Is there a bunch of people flooding her, you know, DMs, you know, those unread messages that go to those folders, but you're right.

1:48:49And that's the sick times that we live in. And Megan, we were talking right after Charlie was killed and, you know, the, the importance of executive protection and, you know, that's what I do. And it's the day and age where unfortunately people go to extremes and it's not just like movie stars and actors. People are so contentious on the political side of things. There's so many people that just hate Donald Trump so much. And listen, I'm not telling you anything that you don't know and your team and other podcasters out here and news people. Unfortunately, people resort to violence when they don't get their way.

1:49:29And that very well could be a reason. Hmm. There is a report in the Daily Mail actually right now showing a segment that aired on the Today Show in November, which really isn't that long ago, showing footage from Savannah returning to her hometown of Tucson and being with her mother, Nancy. Nancy, the Daily Mail is reporting that some at NBC are worried about this segment. It was a homecoming special that they aired. I mean, I have to say that's the thing about like these morning shows and having been at the Today Show for a year, they really want you to put your personal life on the air. They press hard for you to like reveal very personal details about your family, your kids, your marriage, your mom, all of that.

1:50:26There's zero doubt in my mind. Savannah felt that too. And here's a clip from what aired. Mom, you guys came here in the 70s and you'd been moving all around. What made you want to stay in Tucson and to Aunt Roots? It's so wonderful. Just the air, the quality of life is played back and gentle. Yeah, I like to watch the javelina eat my plants. But the best thing about Tucson is coming home and seeing you guys. Should we raise a glass? Prickly pear margarita? Cheers. Cheers. Love you. Love you. Now what they report in the Daily Mail is that there is, this is a quote, there's a lot of soul searching at NBC about whether their segment made Nancy a target.

1:51:11A Today Show source told the Mail. The segment did not feature Nancy's home or disclose details about where she lived, but after this week's events, people around here at NBC, this is a quote, are going to think twice before putting their family on television at all. Man, that's a dark thought. And it's awful, but I think that's the important part. If individuals, you know, who are, whether you're a high networked family or you're a news personality or an actor, an actress, you know, when I meet with a new client, you know, with executive protection, and we have numerous clients that families that we protect and congressmen that we protect, it's so important.

1:51:49And we are so addicted to this and our social media that, you know, just be aware. You go on family vacation, talk to your children. Hey, guys, don't be taking photos of us out at dinner because all that can be, I can put images in Google and find out where you are. You want to post that, we can post our family photos when we get back. But again, we want to make sure that, you know, the safety and security of our clients is our highest priority. and so basically putting out where your mother lives um that is a different angle that we need to look at i mean you don't i like i just i'm sure she wasn't thinking that way i'm sure sure you think that way about your children right but this is yet another another one of those firsts chad where it's like i've i'm sorry to raise it but like the the murder of charlie it's like it was a first.

1:52:41It was like a pundit, like a public figure talking head who gets murdered in an outdoor amphitheater because he's just going out there to speak to people. Like it was a new, in the way Columbine introduced this horrible, evil new way of ending people's lives into our national consciousness. And the Charlie thing happened, which I do think changes public speaking for most people forever. And now this, no, I just think as a public figure, you are not thinking upward in terms of protection. You're thinking downward in the generations because you're, you know, you're thinking about your littles and like, if somebody gets kidnapped, it's usually a toddler.

1:53:22You know, it's, I don't remember an 84 year old ever getting kidnapped before. No, but it, you know, this, this, and this case takes me back to several years ago here in Greenville, South Carolina. There was an elderly couple who was brutally murdered in their home. And I mean, an elderly couple, um, and come to find out it was, um, a worker that had been working there and saw a large amount of jewelry, credit cards, obviously got stolen. I mean, you're going to get caught there. Um, but there's just, unfortunately, Megan, there's too many potential subjects that could be involved in this. And we just don't know right now.

1:54:05I mean, it is disturbing to think that it was just November that she broadcast that her mother does live in Tucson. And I haven't checked, but like, I'll bet it's fairly easy to find the mom's address. She lives alone. She's elderly. And so if you wanted to back to Jim's theory of it's either for money, if it's a kidnapping or it's for revenge, you wanted to hurt Savannah Guthrie for some reason. And like, yeah, people have to understand, you don't have to be controversial. You know, you don't have to be our pal Tucker, who's a lightning rod, in order to invite this nonsense into your life. Like I've told the story before, but my very first year at Fox News, I was a baby in TV.

1:54:46I was a cub reporter. I developed a very serious stalker, a previously convicted felon who he was convinced that we were in a love relationship. They call it an erotomaniac. I'd never met him. I'd never seen him. He just saw me on TV and his mind, which was addled, convinced him that we were in love and we were having a relationship and that my hand gestures on the air were communicating messages to him. And this was a very dangerous man. He wound up going away for 10 years for this crime. And so my point is simply back then, even I wasn't controversial. I was rather new and kind of sweet and just covering the Supreme Court in very generic terms.

1:55:29So it can happen to anybody, even somebody who's co-hosting the Today Show, which isn't particularly controversial. I just there are nutcases in this business. And we definitely cannot rule that one out, unfortunately. Although you tell me, Chad, is there a sophistication to this crime that undermines the theory of nutcase? It's hard to say because of the lack of transparency. I understand why they're doing it. Um, but it's hard to say, I feel like a true nutcase and someone that's, you know, not done a lot of homework or prepared and didn't know the area very well would have slipped up somehow.

1:56:16Um, yes. Does that make sense? I, you know, it's, they would, they would have forgotten to wear gloves. Something would have slipped up. Hair would have been found. Um, they wouldn't have known about the two Nest cameras. I mean, there were two, the person knew to take them both out. So again, that takes me back to someone personal and I'm not saying family. I'm just saying someone, I truly believe it is someone who has been in that residence before. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Um, okay. Just one, one final look at my notes before I let you go. but I want to make sure we have it all. Let's see. They did check to see with local hospitals if somebody had sought to refill her critical prescriptions.

1:57:09All about that. The sheriff did reveal that. And he said we checked virtually every hour in the first day or so. It could have gone on longer. He just mentioned that immediate timeframe, and they did not. Well, one thing to look at, Megan, with the pharmacy aspect would be, I would like to know when her script for those pills that she needs on a daily basis, when were they filled and how many are left in the bottle that was left at the house? So did the person who took her throw some because they knew she needed them? They're that personal. They want to keep her alive. So they took a handful of them to give her a daily dose of her pill to keep her alive.

1:57:48There's an avenue as well, an aspect that could be looked at as well. okay, the script, she's supposed to take one a day. You know what I mean? Yeah. If she just got it filled two days earlier and that bottle's missing all the pills, then this was somebody who actually planned a little, like dumped them out in his hand and ran. Knew that she needed them. I mean, the odds of that, I just, well, who knows? I mean, if it was somebody who knew her well and really did have the intention of keeping her alive long enough to get paid, then it could have happened. We can't rule it out. The ransom letter that they confirmed for the first time that the note that was sent to the media is the note that we are working on.

1:58:31And he did say he believes it was the same note, the same note that the two local outlets in Tucson got and that TMZ got. And that's the only note they know about. They did say that they arrested some other hoaxster for sending a different ransom demand that we didn't know about before today. That is not related to that note and reminded everybody that if you decide to be such a hoaxer, you will get arrested too. They did confirm that the ransom note did not establish a communication method. That dovetails with what we heard from Harvey Levin on TMZ saying that the note basically said there'll be no talking.

1:59:05We're not interested in talking. We just want to get paid. Um, was the doorbell camera taken? The sheriff, we don't have it. So that's kind of an implicit yes. um well i don't know that's interesting was the doorbell camera taken sheriff we don't have it what ashley had reported was that she was told the the doorbell cams had been destroyed by the perpetrator and then she believed removed by the sheriff so actually if he's saying we don't have the doorbell cam it's possible that the bad guy took the doorbell cam too like destroyed it and took it. Again, disconnected at 147, but the software detected a person on cam at 212.

1:59:50That's the biggest mystery of the day. None of us has that figured out unless... The sheriff did say he wasn't sure if it was the front camera or the back camera, acknowledging that there was one in the front, in the back door, that caught the image of the person on cam. So I suppose it's possible that one was destroyed at 147 and the other one detected an image at 212. remains a mystery. You look like you want to say something. Well, I'm just thinking, I'm trying to place this out. So I know we've talked about, well, could the suspect have come through the back? We see the blood spatter on the front porch area coming out of the front door.

2:00:26So it's almost like she did exit through the front door. So if you're trying to be discreet, why would you come from the back, but then exit from the front? It makes no sense unless you just, you needed to get her into a car and that was the only way. Sure. Yeah. But you'd have to pull a car up. I mean, I suppose it's possible. The guy could have come in the back. He could have dismantled or disabled that back camera. He's in the house now. He gets her. He has an accomplice with a car out in the front driveway. He hurts her in order to get her to comply. And on the way out, he takes out that front cam, which possibly, possibly explains the difference in dates.

2:01:09I mean, like in times, I don't know. Shouldn't there technically be at 147, one doorbell cam was disconnected and then a second time where the second one was disconnected? Correct. And shouldn't they both follow the software detecting a person on camera? Both of those camera destructions or disconnections should follow the software detecting a person on cam. Correct. Yeah, so that's one of the mysteries from today. Um, there was a question, has the family received an image because of the reference in Savannah's on camera remarks last night, digital images can be manipulated. You know, we need proof of life.

2:01:48And so that had us too, or wondering earlier, was she sent something that we don't know about? Like in those emailed ransom messages, was there an image of Nancy? I feel like the guys at TMZ who have lifted the dress up pretty high on what was on the note would have suggested there's something indisputable in there to show that they have Nancy. But the question was, have they received an image? Has the family received an image of Nancy? And the answer was, we're not going to get into that. And then just talked about the dangers of AI. Okay, well, that doesn't, you know, that doesn't tell us much.

2:02:33actively looking at everyone, the sheriff, the only DNA evidence we've gotten back is from the front porch, that blood evidence. Other items could take longer. We did process some others for DNA. So there might've been something else inside the house. That's good. It's good to hear that they might have something still that could come back. The FBI confirming that they were there yesterday in Annie's house to participate in the video to help with the video, but underscoring that was the family's decision. The family decided that they wanted to be contacted. They want to be in touch with the kidnapper.

2:03:11There's been no contact after that note went to the media. We have a hostage negotiator as well as someone from Quantico. So whoever wrote that ransom note has not contacted anybody to their knowledge since then. So if there was an AI image sent, it was in that note. And I'm misreading Harvey Levin. He said a lot. And the question is, who would they call? You know, they've seen this, you know, on Instagram of all places, which I think is very interesting in and of itself, that they didn't go on, you know, they didn't choose to go on this show or Fox or CNN, any of these other outlets. They chose one that they know millions and millions and millions of people are going to see.

2:03:56I think that's very interesting. But how do they get in touch with the family? What would that look like in the future? I mean, you got to think right now, TMZ and these two Tucson outlets are hitting refresh in their email every two seconds, right? Because if this really is a kidnapper who's got Nancy Guthrie and there was a five o 'clock deadline today, they didn't say what time, I'm assuming Arizona time. um i mean that's scary but i mean realistically do we believe the five o 'clock deadline because like the family is saying we want to talk and if you think if you're a real kidnapper and you think you got them on the line and one of them's rich i don't think you just kill the mother i mean in this scenario no i'm gonna want to work if this is the case and you really want to do that and you truly want this cryptocurrency you're going to say okay i'm ready to talk to you you put some fake, you know, digital voice on or some computer app and you're talking to them and you go from there.

2:04:56So I agree with you on that. Okay, let's see. When did, let's say, is there any signs that someone tried to clean up the crime scene? Brian Entend asked that. They said, we can't talk about that right now. Then they said the reason that they were back on the property searching again, even though they had already done that and then returned the property over to the family was that the FBI came to town and they just wanted like their own look. Do you buy that? What do you think actually happened there yesterday when they returned to the crime scene, did a search down the road from where the house is on foot, like a grid search on foot.

2:05:37And then two hours later went to the actual house of Nancy Guthrie with FBI agents in the garage for quite some time, in the backyard for quite some time and in the house for the main time for about two hours with a helicopter hovering overhead for about one hour and then left and took their crime scene down again and went home. No, I honestly, I think that, and again, I don't want to, I'm not trying to down the sheriff's office or out there, but the FBI is going to have the best crime scene techs, technology resources out there. So it doesn't surprise me that they went back and just kind of did a secondary.

2:06:12They probably went to the sheriff's office, looked at all their video and photographs and really took about a day or two to dive into this case and then realized, okay, let us go now to the scene because maybe another set of eyes, a fresh set of eyes that hasn't been there in that first immediate dramatic timeframe, take a step back, spend a few days, new set of eyes comes in. Hey, I would recommend that. I think that's a smart move on the Bureau's part. Mm-hmm. And this is definitely not their first rodeo. The FBI does deal with these sort of major cases all the time. So we're glad that the locals have their resources and their experience to work off of.

2:06:57All right. So between now and tomorrow morning, my team and I are going to work very hard to get to the bottom of why he said at 1.47 a.m. on Sunday, the doorbell cam was disconnected. and then at 2.12 a.m. the software detected a person on camera. How can that be? If the doorbell cam was disconnected, how is the software detecting anything? We shall get back to you with the answer to that. Chad, thank you. Thanks so much for your commentary or expertise. Absolutely. Thank you, Megan. All right. To be continued. Coming up next, Kelsey Grammer makes his first appearance on the MK Show. Stay tuned for that.

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2:08:48where you will hear the truth unfiltered with no agenda and no apologies. Along with The Megyn Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news, only on The Megyn Kelly Channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

2:09:13Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show. Well, my next guest is known for playing one of the most iconic characters in television history and one of my favorite ever, ever throughout my entire lifetime on any show anywhere, and that is Dr. Fraser Crane. You're inviting me along to this evening of devilment? You got a credit card, don't you? There you go. You know, I'm not so sure if it really fits in with my image. A desperately lonely character on the make? Well, I guess I'm in. All right. He is singing and there's no one there. Hey, guess what, everybody? Little Frederick beat Cliff at darts. Frasier.

2:09:57Uh-oh. Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody wang chung tonight.

2:10:07Kelsey Grammer's story goes far beyond, however, just Cheers and the even superior to Cheers program, Frasier, With roles in The Simpsons, X-Men, and on the Broadway stage, he's built a legendary career across TV, film, theater. He's got all the awards. But behind all the success and the smile on the big screen has been devastating loss. What many do not know about Kelsey Grammer is that his sister, Karen, was brutally murdered when Kelsey was just 20 and she was just 18. a tragedy that shaped his life and led him to write a deeply personal memoir published last year honoring her memory. It's titled Karen, A Brother Remembers.

2:10:49Through the grief, Grammar credits both faith and resilience for carrying him forward. And now the Emmy Award winning actor Kelsey Grammar joins us for his first appearance on The Megyn Kelly Show. Kelsey Grammar, what a pleasure. Hi, Megan. How are you? Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here as well. Thank you. so nice to meet you and so my my producers put together that lovely intro not knowing that i of course i love cheers but fraser is literally my favorite television show to ever have aired on on tv i have seen every episode multiple times i'm in love with you in the entire cast thank you for that wonderful god bless you we are we were very fortunate to do a very nice show and i mean yes we are responsible for it and there were a lot of people that sort of came together to make it what it was, but it was a breathtaking time in my life.

2:11:37And I love that character. I mean, the character is, you know, he's like a bauble that's just been given to the world as he can do anything, basically, which is really fun. Well, so funny. It's one of those things where it's really fun to listen to you talk in your, you know, regular voice because you don't sound like him at all. You know, I mean, it's just a reminder of what a good job acting you did, hitting the hard T's and consonants as you played the erudite, uptight, arty. He has good diction, certainly. Certainly does, yes. And Niles, too, was a great foil for him throughout the years. So let's go back, because I learned a lot about you in preparing for today.

2:12:16Born in the Virgin Islands, which nobody was. You're it. You're the only one ever. And then raised in New Jersey and Florida. So, like, by the way, if that's true, those are the two best news-producing states in America. You must have had the most colorful experiences as a kid. We did have colorful experiences. Listen, Florida, for me, was an ideal place. It was an ideal fit. I'll regress to Jersey in a second. But when we moved to Florida, it was a presumptive joy for me and for Karen, for my sister. We loved Florida. We'd been there for Christmas a couple of times previously. And the warmth, the sound of the palm trees, the humidity, everything just felt like a kind of a bath of sensual splendor.

2:13:04We grew up in a time that was, you know, a bit repressed and a bit sort of, you know, post-50s, post-World War II. There was still a bit of that kind of hangover. And to go there and to live our lives going in the ocean every day and to go water skiing all the time and stuff like that was just, it was a magnificent way to grow up. We just had the best time. And I think that's part of why it took me so long to write the book about Karen. I mean, I've waited for almost 50 years to write it. It's a fascinating adjustment. But I finally realized I wanted to say something about her. And ostensibly, there's an argument to be made that people might be interested in what the future, what the past was that brought about this creation of Frasier and my career and all that.

2:13:54The early days were good. I mean, you suffered a lot of tragedy growing up. I didn't realize your dad was murdered, as was your sister. And then you had two stepbrothers who died in a terrible scuba accident. Right, that was more of a fake thing. the diving accident with the shark. I mean, they never found any remains of Billy. He was lost completely. Stevie washed up on the shore. My God. Yeah. I mean, that's an unusually high percentage of tragedy in a young man's life. It's a big question for a young life, yeah. Well, I thought it was interesting. I mean, first of all, it explained to me all the stories I saw in the 90s of your drinking problem.

2:14:37And then second of all, I did think it was interesting. You could have written about any of those experiences and made it a bestselling book, but you must have been pretty close with your sister Karen to take on that particular tragedy and really deal with it because, I mean, that was so brutal and so personal. It was pretty horrible. I wanted to in writing the book I wanted to it's funny people talk about what they've been through and they often play sort of a victim card and I know I've certainly been accused of doing that myself but I've done my best not to but in telling the tale about Karen's destruction the last night of her life I wanted to make sure that there was an honest uncovering of everything that happened so that people would understand it as a credential of sorts that when I gave out advice about how to survive such a thing, how to endure such a thing, that it would be recognized as the same kind of tragedy that others have actually endured.

2:15:40I was trying to extend a hand of comfort to people who've been through similar things. And sadly, there's a lot of people who've been through similar things. Somebody told me a long time ago that no matter how pretty you are, there's somebody prettier, no matter how handsome you are, there's somebody more handsome, There's somebody more talented. There is always a more tragic tale. And so I just needed to let people know that what I was coming from was a real place, a real source, so that the comfort I was hoping to offer would come from a place that seemed authentic and real and might actually bring some thoughts.

2:16:16Can you tell us what happened to Karen? Karen was abducted around 1230 in the morning outside of the Red Lobster where she worked. She was waiting for some friends to come out. And a few hours later, she was dead. They took her. And one of the fellas walked up to her and showed her a gun and said, you're coming with us. And so they put her in a backseat. They went back into the Red Lobster after that. And we're going to rob the place. And I think something about the setup of where they were in their heads, they didn't end up robbing it. They just ended up going back out to the car. Then they took Karen to one of their apartments.

2:17:00And that's where they raped her. And she pleaded for her life several times. And the account we have of what happened to her those last few hours was basically provided by a guy who was arrested in New Orleans. several months after her murder who said I know about the girl in Colorado and they said what are you talking about and then that's what then the police flew there and they finally said to me they called me a week or so later and said we think we have the guys and so it was three of them and they there was one young man there who apparently had not been part of the other killings as much and they thought he should earn his stripes basically.

2:17:46So he was the one that put the knife in her several times. And they left her to die by this little trailer park where I visited that spot in the book. It's sort of a sad feeling. There's a home there where I think the guy who found Karen actually still lives there, I think. It's got a tall fence and some barbed wire on top and it's like he didn't want to be bothered. so you know he wasn't bothered i don't want to hurt anybody or make anybody go back and relive something uh but for me it's been left to relive it all the time because we've had you know parole hearings and stuff like that which take me back to it and that was that's that's difficult but you know what you're working to make sure that that yeah that he doesn't get out yeah but i just i just think yeah but and insult to injury is what that would amount to for me well because i i read that with your dad's murder, he was shot by a man who was convicted, but then it was overturned.

2:18:47Is that correct? It was overturned because he was found insane? He was found not guilty by reason of insanity. The other problem is, I don't know all the particulars of it, but the rumor mill, apparently there was more of a kind of an assassination thing because the tensions were running high in the Virgin Islands. They do that all the time. There's a kind of an energy there that's sometimes it's like seasonally violent. And then it's kind of really placid and wonderful in the paradise. You believe it is. But a few years later, after this man, whose last name, ironically, is Niles. Nobody understands how that happens.

2:19:29I noticed that. It's just weird. But apparently he was arrested again in an attempted professional hit on a judge. So he went back to jail. His sentence was caused out. As they usually do. He was sent back to jail. Well, because when I saw it, I was thinking you must be extra determined to go to those parole hearings for your sister's killer because you've already been burned somewhat by the system. Yeah. And to me, I don't know, Kelsey, if you ever thought about this, but it almost seemed like, is it ironic or is it actually totally, it makes perfect sense that a guy who's been through all of that would choose a career in comedy?

2:20:14Yeah, well, it does seem, but I think that's how we do it, you know, laugh. There's a great poem by a writer named James Merrill, who I think he taught at Yale for a while. But he describes at one point one of the characters in the story, but it's like an epic poem, a modern epic poem. But he describes the sound of hearing God's voice, God's song, God Bees, he calls them God Biology. And the character says that it was like listening to a man on a life raft singing to keep up his nerve. and I think that's what I am so well you were on your way toward a career in the arts when Karen was killed you were at Juilliard at the time right well I'd just been kicked out and by the way yeah you'd just been kicked out so how did Kelsey Grammer get kicked out of Juilliard well you know I look back on it and I really think it's because I didn't go to acting class oh well that'll do it It wasn't deeply personal.

2:21:26I just didn't really like the guy so much. And I thought, I don't know if I'm learning anything from this guy. So I'd just go take a walk instead. And that proved to be sort of a bad investment of my time. You know, it's funny because I was rejected from the Syracuse University Journalism School. I can't imagine anyone rejecting you. Well, I was rejected. And now I love telling that story. But the heir to the Newhouse fortune sat next to me at an event. It was actually an Oscars party one year. And he said, please, please stop telling people that story. Okay, yeah, just cut it out. So we got the last laugh, Kelsey.

2:22:05You and I both got the last laugh. Yeah, in the end. So you had parents in the business, right? Your mom, your mom in particular, was a performer? Right. My mom had done some summer stock. She met my dad at music school. that's really all I really know about that particular thing. They never discussed it with me. I didn't really know my dad very well. And then he was in the army for a while. And I've been told he blew taps at Arlington. So that's kind of cool. But once he got out of the army, he and his friend did that classic thing where you spin the globe and their finger landed on the Virgin Islands.

2:22:39So that's how we ended up there. And my mom was pregnant. And I was born. That's how it started. And along came you. All right. So you mentioned New Jersey and Florida. What were the ages? I'm just curious. Like, where did you come of age? Florida or New Jersey? Jersey was 3 to 12. Florida was 12 to 18. That was, you know, that's coming of age. So that's kind of home. That's rock and roll. So it also kind of explains why a man like you, who declares himself openly Republican, would choose to live in the People's Republic of California. You like warm weather. I do like warm weather. You were born in the Virgin Islands.

2:23:12All those years in Florida. What else would explain it? California. I mean, my family is from California. I am actually from California. All the bones are baked here. All the burial plots live here. We just ended up on the East Coast after World War II because my grandfather was in the oil business for Standard Oil of California. So he was assigned to go to New York City, where he worked in the Empire State Building for several years, where I would visit him. And then he was instrumental in moving the company headquarters on the East Coast to Perth Amboy in New Jersey, where my sister Karen was born.

2:23:52So it all sort of ties together nicely that way. But I always loved California. My great-great-grandfather brought wagon trains across the country to California. He met his wife on one of those wagon trains, and that was Cora. And, you know, I mean, I do have a lot of information because I did that show to, you know, Who Do You Think You Are? So I got some more input. Well, somehow you've made it work. We'll get to that in a bit, your politics and your chosen state and your governor. But we'll table it for now until we get there. So you're making your way in the acting business. You do some theater, as I understand.

2:24:29You do some Shakespeare, which is good training for Frasier Crane. And was Cheers your big break? Yeah. I mean, I did some Broadway before that. I did Macbeth at Lincoln Center. And I was understudying the lead at the time, an actor named Philip Anglum, who was a terrific guy and did a pretty nice job as Macbeth. Macbeth is one of those cursed shows. You know, you always fail in Macbeth. I don't really know why. But so he didn't really, he wasn't really happy about how things were received. So I went on. I played the role for several weeks and he finally came back and played a few of the final closing performances.

2:25:11But it was a great role for me to cut my teeth on in terms of the classics and understanding what it's like to be the center of a piece in front of a crowd that is that, you know, educated and critical. And so I did pretty well out of that. And then I ended up in a production of Othello with James Earl Jones and Christopher Plummer. That's where I became great friends with James Earl Jones. I was recently at his memorial several months ago where they renamed a theater in his honor. And so it's now the James Earl Jones Theater just off Broadway, which is very, very cool. And it's very cool to have known him.

2:25:46He was a miraculous actor and an even better person. I have nothing but the highest of praise for him. Wow. And Christopher Plummer, too. What a gift. And we lost him just a couple of years ago. Chris was so vital. He was an interesting fellow. He and I did not get along so well early on, but I was a young man. You crossed Captain Von Trapp. What were you thinking? It did feel that way for a while, but we ended up being pretty friendly.

2:26:16So you move on to Cheers, and your career takes off. It's like rocket ship. That show was such a hit, and it was back in the days when we were all watching the same program at night. It wasn't as splintered as it is today. So you become a rocket ship superstar overnight. And is that when you would say some of these past traumas started to manifest more in your life as happens for many people? Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, what happened to me was I felt guilty. Yeah. But I also fell in love with the idea that I could actually finally, to indulge myself a little bit. I mean, I'd been living on a little more than a prayer for almost a decade where things were very hard.

2:27:01I mean, I didn't buy my first new car until I was 39 years old. I mean, it was time for Kels to finally explore what it was like, to be flush a little bit, to enjoy his life a little bit, to live big. I finally got a sailboat. there was several things that came into play that actually made my life quite worth living but there was a dark side of it that actually you know I was I was sad I was sad and I mean somebody said that addiction the the major cause of addiction is unresolved grief and I think that probably fueled my I mean it certainly wasn't trying to kill myself or anything people have asked that question I'm you know I'm writing another book now about myself which is actually you.

2:27:46I'm about 100 pages into it at this point. But how are you liking yourself? I'm okay.

2:27:56It was great to let go of some of the stuff about Karen without, you know, dishonoring her. I was felt guilty that she didn't have the life I had. But she was along for the ride in a lot of ways. So it was great for me to have a chance to introduce her to people in the book. And then One of my great friends, one of the first people who read what I had written so far, I haven't edited since his reading of it, but he said, I feel like I know your sister now. And that was all I wanted. That's exactly it. So you've done her a great tribute because you've kept her alive for all of us. Now I know her and your friend knows her.

2:28:31And so many millions of others know her, which is, you know, I think when you lose somebody, that's really one of your main worries. You want the world to know them. I know a lot of dear friends who have suffered major loss, and they repeat that. So you did honor her with this book about her. And maybe, I don't know, did it take you to a place where you feel healed or more healed than you were? It is. I think I said in the book, I will still weep buckets. But yes, there is a sense of I can claim my life now without feeling guilty about it. And that was a real blessing for me. The survivor's guilt makes no sense.

2:29:18You know, it makes absolutely no sense, but it is a real thing. I've talked to so many people who deal with it. Yeah, there you are. And yeah, it can drive you to drink. It can drive you to do all sorts of things. A lot of people go to Hollywood and become big stars and do those things just because they want to. anyway. You had a few good reasons. Robin used to say, you know, cocaine is God's way of saying you're making too much money.

2:29:40So, I mean, it is kind of interesting. This year I had the pleasure of getting to know and befriend Charlie Sheen. So I've been spending a lot of time thinking about some of this. How were you able to function at such a high level while drinking so much and doing so many drugs? Well, I've got a good brain and I always knew when to pull it back. I always knew when to stop, honestly. I mean, there were moments when I looked pretty beat up, but I could always kind of pull myself together enough to have a semblance of acumen and talent and performance. So it was never that far out of my reach. And it's sort of like I've raced cars a little bit, you know, a long time ago.

2:30:20You have? Yeah, but the thing that I didn't do was I didn't go to the place where I knew I wasn't safe. And I think that was an indication of who I actually am. Oh. I always knew that I was able to put it down. There was a moment when I'd say, okay, that's enough now. Go get some rest. Was there someone like who you worked with either on the Cheers? I think this is mostly during the Cheers years. Yeah. Well, there was a real section during Frasier when I needed to take some time off. That was when it kind of really came to a head because, I mean, Suddenly I was making an extraordinary amount of money, and I still felt like I needed to apologize for that on some level.

2:31:03Of course, the world around us says you need to apologize for being successful, which seems absolutely ridiculous as in America, for God's sakes, which may point towards some of my politics. We need not be embarrassed by success. We need not be shamed by that. No. It seems that that's— We like winning on the right side. Yeah, yeah. It seems that's sort of what's going on.

2:31:26but I'm trying to get back to my thread on that. Well, was there some, I was going to ask you, was there somebody who was able to reach you at all? Or somebody who really pushed you to put it down? Yeah, the folks at Cheers said, you know, look, it's time to kind of, you know, step away from it. And I said, okay. Well, I did that for a while. And I had a few good years of clean living. Well, not exactly clean, but, you know, clean-ish living. And a couple of, you know, messed up relationships, but a couple of good ones. So, you know, there were some decent people around. I liked and I still like interaction with people.

2:32:02And that's the greatest source for me of all experiences is the fact that you know people and watch them. And that's where I did my training. My training actually has just been in, you know, observing the human condition and the way people behave. And that's what you have. Great actors and great writers. Yeah. And great writers. Same thing. Good. Yeah. So did you ever have a tawdry love affair with Shelly Long or Kirstie Alley or Bebe Neuwirth? Come on, spell the T. No, you know what? It's never really a good idea to have a tawdry love affair with people you're working with. No, it's not a good idea, but that's not a denial.

2:32:41It's not a denial, but no, I never did, no. It's funny, I didn't get to know Shelly very well because she left really after I got to the show a couple years later. And she went off after the fifth season. And that's when Kirstie came on the show. And that's when I realized, when Kirstie made her first appearance in the show and I was watching, I thought to myself, boy, this show is going to be successful for a while. She's great. And I got to know her pretty well. And I always loved Kirstie. I think she's one of the funniest people that ever lived. I was devastated by her premature demise. You know, I mean, just for her to go the way she went, it just was like, oh, come on.

2:33:18She was such a light. And she was a kind of ecstatic person. She would live in a silliness about her. I mean, I don't know if this would ever go anywhere anymore, but at one point she stood all the men on chairs up against the bar and she said, I'm going to guess which of you has the biggest package.

2:33:42But she was unflappable. And, of course, we all said, okay, well, what the heck. It was a different time. Which either makes you feel really, really proud or really nervous, depending on what category you're in. That eye looking sort of askance at you, yeah. But she was a riot. It was always in good fun. She was celebratory and fun. She went up and down. But always funny. It was Kirstie who told me that when you go on a show like Carson or something like that. I mean, of course, I missed Carson. Jay Leno was his first year, and I thought, okay. But she said, just make up somebody. Pretend you're somebody else.

2:34:26I thought, Kirstie. I said, that's exhausting. I'll never be able to keep track for one thing. I think she gave that same advice to Brian Williams of NBC News. Now we come back to haunt him. In the end. No. I'm going to bet him on the other end. Sure did. So then you wind up doing the spinoff of Cheers, which is Frasier, which is, I mean, just as big, if not bigger, a hit. Ran for the same, another decade. And one of the reasons why I'm so surprised to learn that you love race cars is because my favorite episode of Frasier, it is the one, I've mentioned it on this show multiple times. and my whole family can recite it start to finish, is you and your brother Niles, who are these very uptight, priggish, socialite men, both psychiatrists, not men's men at all, much to the chagrin of their man's man father, decide you have to go to auto mechanic class.

2:35:26I saw that show the other day. It's the greatest. I had my team pull a small clip for the audience that hasn't seen it. Here's just a tad. No one else wore them in gym class either, but then Tommy Fritz scratched his cornea and then they were mandatory. Give me that wrench. Give me that wrench.

2:35:47I'm telling you, I'm telling you, it's on too tight here. I'll just try to loosen it up. Whoa. Whoa. Remember, spark plugs come out with a simple twist and pull. Twist and pull. Give it a try. Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. That's called stripping it. Wow. Good job, Frazier. Here, let me strip one. No, no. Stripping it means breaking it. Watch me.

2:36:20Well. So you twist and then pull. You see, I was twisting and pulling simultaneously as per your instructions, twist and pull. In the future, the phrase twist then pull might help.

2:36:42Look, fellas, maybe that's enough for one night, but why don't you come in a little early next week and I'll try to get you caught up to everyone else. I've got a feeling you guys are going to be my special project.

2:36:55And then you realize you were the remedial students. Yes, it was a nightmare. Which was unusual. For those boys, it was not a good thing to be the remedial students. I love that guy. But that was real acting because do you know your way around an engine? Well, actually, I do. This was one of my come-to-Jesus moments in my career when I realized as I was changing my own oil after I was on television, I thought to myself, you know what? There are people who make their living doing this. I'm depriving them of their living while I'm making mine. So I started thinking I should get my oil changed by a professional.

2:37:29that that is exactly the storyline of the auto uh mechanic episode where the two guys eventually realized that they're stealing jobs from very good auto mechanics and really should leave this class asap yeah i you know i really it was a real thing for me because i always always i was growing up i grew up looking after my mom's cars my grandmother's cars i'd always change the oil change the plugs sometimes set the timing you know there was different things you set the gap on the plug. There's all sorts of stuff we used to do that you don't have to do anymore because we had carburetors then. Now it's fuel injection.

2:38:06Yeah, you're speaking Greek to me. I don't even know if the engine of my car is in the front or the back. I was very proud to do them and look after things in the house. It was my job. I was the man of the family. It just carried on into my life a bit longer than maybe most of them. So did you maintain a friendship with David Hyde Pierce, who played Niles? We were still friends, yeah. Yeah, it's a good relationship. David's in New York. He's sort of become the maven of Broadway theater. Yeah, I've seen him. I've stayed over here on the West Coast. But I've gone over to New York once in a while.

2:38:45I did a movie with Charles Durning several years back, a couple of decades now, I guess. But I said, what do you like to do to keep things sharp, keep things focused? He said, well, I try to do a play every year for at least six weeks. You know, it's like you do an out-of-town play somewhere. You'd probably take off a month or two to keep the engine running, you know, to keep the senses honed. And I thought, well, every year is going to be too hard to manage for me. Too many responsibilities. But I did try to do every five years. And I think I've kind of stuck with that. I'm a little late right now, this little phase in my life.

2:39:24I think it's about time for me to go do a play again, but we'll see. I don't know what it's going to be. It always seems exciting. I mean, I can't imagine standing up there and just hearing those applause from a live audience night after night after night. But on the other hand, at what point do you get sick of doing the exact same routine night? Does that ever seep in, especially as somebody who doesn't normally spend his acting career doing that? Yeah, there was an actor named Michael Goff. I think he played Alfred in the first Batman which Jack Nicholson was in. I think he played the butler, you know?

2:40:02And he was a wonderful guy. And at one point, he was in a conversation with me. Maybe we were at Charlie's or something, you know, having an after-theater drink. And he said, oh, don't you love long runs? And I thought to myself, well, not really. But it was his insistence that a long run was a glorious thing to be involved in that I started to try to dissect what he was thinking about and to appreciate it. And so the next time I was in a long run was actually doing Othello. And so we ran for a year doing that. I was in it for a year. and I started to allow myself to understand what that meant.

2:40:50It has to be a great play, like a Shakespeare play. That language is just so much more excellent than most others. Most other plays really do not match up. I mean, you can try to do Eugene O 'Neill for six months and you're just going to drive yourself into the ground with it. He's a lovely writer. It's just not the same kind of experience. There's a connection to life, a sort of a universal life that Shakespeare just is. I believe there was a book written about him called The Invention of the Human, which basically lays at Shakespeare's feet the creation of all our language, of how we communicate with one another.

2:41:35And yeah, it's only four, almost 500 years ago. But that language when you're on stage, you'll be in the midst of a scene you've done a dozen times or a hundred times and suddenly hear something you've never heard before. And that's the beauty of the long run. I can see it. Now that you walk me through it, poor Eugene O 'Neill took a beating there. I didn't mean to beat him up. He's kind of lovely in a way. It's a bit self-conscious, isn't it? Yes. Well, now, the thing is, I mean, I go to Broadway all the time. We love Broadway. We're constantly there. But it's gotten very woke. And, you know, we went to see, we saw Macbeth.

2:42:20And it was starring Daniel Craig. And Kelsey, they had the king's son was played by a girl, a woman, who had a blue mohawk. Okay, so we're trying to buy this, like, okay, 14th or 15th century Scotland character with a blue mohawk. and it's supposed to be a man, but it's being played by a woman. There was a character, it was a minority majority cast, which is not at all representative of this time in Scotland either. There was a guy in a wheelchair playing a part. It was like, okay, I appreciate the handicap getting roles, but like that doesn't work for this timeframe either. And no one wore a costume.

2:42:57Like the king's son was wearing a T-shirt, like a Stones, a Rolling Stones T-shirt. I'm like, what is this? You tell me, what is that? The good news is that Shakespeare can survive all of that. His language is that good that you can actually try to put as many overlays on it, and the play is still going to work. That's extraordinary. Somebody, somebody. See, now that's good advice. A very wise person once told me, they said, I've seen good actors enhance a poor play, but I've never seen bad actors ruin Shakespeare. Oh. So maybe some of these productions are, oh, misguided or way too informed with current trends.

2:43:40The good news is that it's a play. It doesn't last forever. No one, thank God, is going to film it. And you will not end up printing that impression of Macbeth on too many people, although it's clearly caused you some strife. Have you ever had to act across? from one of these super woke people? Honestly, I highly recommend you not take a role across from Patti LuPone. I beg of you. Well, you know, Patti did my show years ago. She's just gotten, she's gone down that lane. And you know what, I think it's, but how do you explain it? It's, I love people of great passion and short-sightedness. There's, you know, it's myopia, if you want, or myopic in its way, nearsighted, short-sightedness.

2:44:31There's no real long game in it because it doesn't really have human value. It has exaggerated value. It's like you, you know, in Alcoholics Anonymous, they talk about how you can raise your bottom, meaning you don't have to completely bottom out. You don't have to end up sleeping on the street to realize, oh, this is now a problem. Well, in this case, they've raised a level of a perceived injustice or a perceived need in their society to a place where it actually is discordant. It doesn't necessarily equate to human necessity or human value. It doesn't necessarily make the world better. It makes us more strident and less tolerant.

2:45:19And certainly if we believe in tolerance, then you don't need to be yelling and screaming about whether or not a person with a mohawk deserves the same degree of attention or to be taken as seriously as someone who is wearing a suit. I mean, you can elevate so many things to a pinnacle of meaning that are pretty much not very important. So this is your diagnosis of wokeness, of what the woke do? The woke thing is really, it's a manufactured outrage that has been used as a lever for political change. When it's probably not, it probably doesn't have the teeth for that. It probably doesn't have the chops to make it all the way to, oh, we have to define our lives by this.

2:46:06For instance, we have a lot of people in theater now who say if you're not gay or trans or whatever, you can never play a gay person. Well, that would be like, how many times do we have to play? How many straight men do we have to have in the theater to allow us to have straight relationships? Certainly, at least in the play itself, in the world of the play, a man and a woman are married. A lot of people doing those roles, that's not the case. But it is acting. And we've now entered a world where people say you have to be the person in order to play the person. And so, unfortunately, there will be no more acting careers because you'll just play a movie you are.

2:46:47I'm not going to do that. There was a movie coming out, I don't know, eight years ago about a trans person and Scarlett Johansson was supposed to star and it got killed because she's not trans. It's ridiculous to think that a person can't play a trans person. Surely we could understand it. Yeah, I mean you're actors. Maybe we don't place the same value on it as having your mother marry your father's brother or something like that. That's Hamlet. I mean, we don't. I thought we were talking about Ilhan Omar. It's a great poem by Carl Sandberg. I was like, you're close. You almost have it. And he says they all want to play Hamlet.

2:47:24They haven't exactly seen their mothers messing around with their father's brother. They haven't actually seen their fathers murdered. They haven't exactly gone to a place where you try to stab your best friend with a sword, and yet they all want to play Hamlet. Our creative imagination is what draws us into being actors. It's not the fact that we are actually gay or straight or anything else or married or fake. Or a Harvard-educated psychiatrist. We can play anything that's part of the human experience because that's what we're good at. It's okay to be there. So I think everybody agrees with that.

2:48:00They just pretend not to, to get themselves some sort of social clicks. But you've been kind of outspoken. My team found a clip of you speaking of you going on Leno from 2012, talking about being an out Republican. Now, that's that's bold. 2012. Like, wow, you came out with it pretty early. I wasn't really on. You were already a big star. But why why be so open about it? Because virtually every Republican I know in Hollywood just calls themselves an independent. Yeah, that's why it's so popular now. There's a lot of people who are popularly, oh, I'm an independent. Okay, well, fine. So thank God you make some sense once in a while.

2:48:35But I'm a little more outspoken about it. I just think it's sort of exhausting to be so up in arms about every single issue that comes down the pike. Like, it is not wise, I think, to take anything but a longer view of things, to have a little bit of perspective and to stand back from issues that seem important in that day or in that moment. And realize that, yeah, that's the currency of political discourse, I guess, and of trying to win elections or not win elections or destroy your opponents. I mean, we live in America. We're all Americans. We need to remember that. And at least I believe we need to remember that.

2:49:20And that my fellow American is not my enemy. No, that goes back to my Christian lens that I put on things, which is, you know, love thy enemy as thyself. Do unto others as you have others do unto you. These are things that still are important to me. And so that's why I think I probably outed myself a long time ago. So in retrospect, and this is a current topic, it did relegate me to the fringes of society in Hollywood. And so I may have had my peccadillos, as they say, but I was never part of the dungeon crowd, the stuff I've heard about. I'm not in that world. And so the world that— How did it relegate you to the fringes?

2:50:09Oh, well, I wasn't invited to those parties. I'm glad I wasn't. Yeah, exactly. Speaking of raising the bottom, you don't want to go to those parties at all. I've heard about what goes on there. Well, that's what I heard about it. A few years ago, I was on a flight with a fairly famous actor who shared some stuff with me that I thought, holy moly, this actually goes on in Hollywood. And he was a participant and a fairly knowledgeable fellow. And I thought, my goodness, I really dodged a bullet there. Are we talking about sex stuff or drug stuff? Sex slash just all of it. All the stuff you see. Let me tell you something.

2:50:53News 2. News 2. I could tell you some stories not involving yours truly, but with some people in news that would make your eyes roll in the back of your head. People who are on the air right now posing as very severe news anchors have a whole different side to them. I do love that you have that information. But like you, I don't go to those parties. I stay home with my husband. Yeah, I think that's. And speaking of the spouse, why did I watch you for a good year, maybe more, on The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills? There you were. I, you know, I don't really talk about that part of my life very much anymore.

2:51:34I do. There's a couple of wonderful children I have as a result. I don't throw any daggers or knives or anything else. That's a part of my past. And I was not going to survive. So I'm glad I, I'm glad we went to a different place. You found, you found a way out of that, but it was fascinating to watch. It was a window into your beautiful home and your, your life. It was a window through some, but it wasn't a clear glass, let's say. But that's the nature of those shows. You know they're not real. So you kind of accept that this is just all, you know, high dudgeon. Yeah, that's right. But you now have eight children, right?

2:52:18Eight kids. And are any of them in the business or have the taste for it or not? Well, they're all sort of business adjacent. My eldest daughter, Spencer, is an actress and has had a substantial career. She's done really well. And she's currently on Rick and Morty. So she's one of the voices in Rick and Morty, and she does really well. And that's been over a decade, I think, that she's been on that. And that's given her some independence and some wealth, certainly enough to manage having a home and stuff like that. She has a wonderful son, so I have a grandson named Emmett, who's a terrific kid.

2:52:54And we don't see each other as much as I'd like to, but I do see them out to know there's a relationship there. My next daughter, Greer, she's doing pretty well. She's an actress. She's very interested in it. We spend quite a bit of time together, and then we'll spend a year without seeing each other at all. But there is still a real love there. and love that actually took us a little time to figure out to identify because it wasn't in her life really when she was younger and there's Mason and Jude that's from the previous show the real housewife but I see them quite a bit Jude's off in school and Mason's now been in California, she's got a boyfriend and she tends to live with her mom most of the time, but I don't really ask any questions.

2:53:51Okay. That's probably the safest way sometimes. Exactly. It's not part of my life. So I'm actually very gratefully removed from it. The life I live now with Kate is a magnificent life, and we just had a baby. She's an extraordinary mom. Our little boy just turned four months old. yesterday on her month. It was Kate's birthday yesterday. How long have you and Kate been together? We've been together 16 years. Wow. It doesn't seem possible, does it? It's like you go, what? I feel like I was watching you on that show five years ago, but I guess it was longer. Now, is she a Republican? She's English.

2:54:43So she's not particularly anything. She's more sort of apolitical. She doesn't really care for it. That's good. She's very funny about California. I mean, there's people who wear their views on their sleeve here that is kind of just tiresome after a while. Or on their mask. I can't be assaulted by some human being who doesn't seem to have any real deep thought going on. They're just parroting things. But you're in trouble now. You're in trouble because it's one thing to be a Republican in 2012, but it's quite another to be a Trump supporter, which you've outed yourself. I mean, now that may be the most dangerous thing you've done in your life.

2:55:24Well, you know, it's never cost me. It's never cost me opportunity. It has probably cost me some jobs. But. Has it cost you any friends? one one that i know of it was more of a recent friend who who who looks through the darkness of well whatever assumptions are made is it brian cranston no it's not okay um i know he's abandoning everybody who's right of center well you know i've heard that from some people too but you know i like to live where i can live you know and i would not actually be able to tolerate living on that side of the line so it's okay we all have our you know our own. Well, how do you think Trump's doing?

2:56:10I think he's doing really well. I think he's, you know, it's annoying to a lot of people. I think he's doing a wonderful job. He is, there's a phrase in Shakespeare, he puts transgression to it. It's not popular sometimes, but the man speaks his mind and you know where he stands. And I've never seen a more transparent presidency in my life. I mean, he talks every day to the press. Some people don't like it. I don't know why they don't like it, because we spent years, you know, hearing from the previous guy two or three times, and that was always just like, yeah, if you don't like gun rights being taken away from you, go find an F-15 and see if you can beat us.

2:56:52It's like that. There's a belligerence that seemed to come from a very weak position. so you're feeling good you're and and how how are you thinking about the next election if at all like in 28 is there somebody you like right now i don't well i mean the house may change but the presidency won't and the senate won't so you know it might change it might not who knows well i meant the presidential election you like oh the favorite jd vance marco rubio i actually like both of them i think there's a pretty deep bench i think there's a lot of people who actually would be pretty extraordinary on that side.

2:57:29There's a couple of people on the left that are fairly interesting. I think they have to abandon this idea of like supporting criminals and saying you have to... I was really surprised that Kamala Harris supported the idea of bailing out people who were clearly rioting. I thought that was a little odd. I don't think that holds up. I mean, we're doing the same thing now, but if political seasons, political seasons are like this. You go back to Mitt Romney and Barack Obama. I mean, but they were staging stuff outside of Wall Street. Remember that? There was like, you know, and everybody's up and on.

2:58:05I mean, you're from California, though. So like now it's kind of shaping up to be possibly Gavin Newsom versus maybe a J.D. Vance. I mean, is there any world in which you could get behind your current governor? No, no. Gavin Newsom. As I said, I'm from California. I mean, I really am from California. My grandfather told me stories of fighting fires outside of Fresno, where he was born. Black Mountain Ranch is where he was born, in the Kettleman Hills. And when he was 14, he was part of a volunteer group that fought fires. He said it was the only thing that really scared him. And he served in Guadalcanal for two years.

2:58:43This was a man of incredible courage. But you live in California, you know there are fires here. the abject failure of Gavin Newsom in his role as a governor indicts him to the point where there's no way he can be taken seriously as a candidate. I don't think even most Democrats take him seriously as the next possible presidential VP. He can lob grenades. He's great at doing that. He's very good at talking for about four hours and still saying nothing. I mean, you know, politicians have a certain gift that way. I call it the balancing subterfuge of political doublespeak. he's really good at it.

2:59:21Cause I mean, honestly, I've, I've heard that guy talk for over four or five years and I still don't know what he says. I just know that it's garbage. And yeah, I have no particular state. He doesn't actually sit still. He's got very weird. There's some sort of self soothing issue in there. You know, when he was rocking back and forth LA 2.0 or whatever, it just, it was a monumental masterpiece of malfeasance. Yeah, and people are still not recovered from it. Kelsey, I'd love to continue this. When the race is on, please come back, and we will analyze all aspects of Gavin or Kamala, both California people versus anybody on the right, because it's going to be a fun contest to watch.

3:00:05Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you so much. The pleasure was all mine. Thank you. Thank you so much, Kelsey Grammer. Check out his book about his sister, Karen. It really is powerful and very open. I mean, not every star as big as Kelsey Grammer will share with you this kind of story. And it's called Karen, A Brother Remembers. And it's a deeply personal memoir of what happened to his sister. And you learn a lot about him. And what a charmer, right? And what a brave guy to come out with all that in today's day and age in Hollywood. We need millions more just like him. Okay, we will be back tomorrow.

3:00:43Thank you for listening. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.