Platner Allegation EXPOSES the Media, and the Tyler Robinson Defense REVEALED, with Bevan, Halperin, Aronberg, Holloway, Geragos, Eiglarsh, and Spilbor | Ep. 1354

24:55Dave Aronberg:Animal House, you fucked up. You trusted us. That's what the New York Times is saying to Lindsay, right? It's like, too bad. You took a risk. You never should have done that. But it is infuriating. And in a way, I mean, not in a way, in fact, Tom, it backfired because the Democrats could have had the truth about Graham Plattner. He denies it. It may or may not be true. OK, I must say that for the record. But they could have had this story in full about Graham Plattner weeks ago in much more time before the election to get another candidate in there to clearly and easily get him off the ballot before that July 13th deadline.

25:33Dave Aronberg:But they decided to play the game of delusion and dilution. And now here we are with less than a week to go before his name has to come off that ballot or stay on there for the general election. And he's just considering the path forward, not agreeing to step down. Yeah. I mean, as if the Nazi tattoo wasn't enough, like they could have gotten rid of this guy like a year ago months ago months ago right um and all of the other the reddit posts and all that stuff i mean it is astonishing for for all of the people who live in maine that that the democrats decided to get behind this guy and and hitch their wagon and their credibility to this guy and then stick with him through all of these things um it it has been remarkable to see and now it is a problem they are going to pay a price for not just in Maine, but for all the other races.

26:25And you had El Syed endorsed him in Michigan. He's now distancing himself. The only person, the most prominent Democrat, who did not endorse him, interestingly, was AOC. She did not get behind this guy. And I find that kind of interesting. But as you said, Bernie's been all in, has been up there campaigning for him even after that New York Times piece came out. He hasn't said anything yet. And so, look, I think he has to get out. I don't know. I guess there's a slim chance that he could try and ride this thing out. But it looks like - Pull a Trump.

27:01Dave Aronberg:Well, yeah, exactly. Remember, we all thought Trump was going to drop out after the Access Hollywood tape. And he came out, double-barreled it, and said, F off. No, locker room talk, I'm in. I saw Mika Brzezinski sort of grilling Adam Renn, the Politico reporter, about, now there's no police report, right? There's no, like, what documentation do you have? Like, do you have the DMs? I mean, theoretically. I don't remember her asking any of that about the Trump accusers. Right. She definitely doesn't look like she's believing all women. But I guess theoretically he could say, look, you know, this is a he said, she said situation.

27:36I say it doesn't happen. She said it did. And he could try and go that route. But it looks like the momentum is swinging pretty heavily against him. It would be hard for him, I think, to ride it out at this point. I think Sanders may have called for him to get out. Oh, did he just now? Just now. I think I've seen reports on that. But let's see.

27:54Dave Aronberg:Wait, while you check that, let's play a little of that Morning Joe exchange you just referenced. Tom Bevin, here it is for B. Correct me if I'm wrong. And there's not a legal case playing out here for due process to see itself through. So my question to you, given the very high standards political has before they write something like this and publish it. What aspects of this story brought it to the level of publishable? Yeah, you're correct here, Mika. There is no police report in this case. We spent a lot of time talking to Jenny, asking her for corroborating evidence. Were you able to see the interactions between Graham Plattner and this alleged victim?

28:40Dave Aronberg:Did you actually physically see them? Did she produce them for you? she was she uh attempted to uncover them she uh but was unable to

28:53willie she was jenny in that new york times piece she appeared in the piece a few weeks ago so what's your sense of why she decided she wanted to go into more detail with you at this point yeah willie uh she was frustrated with how that article uh landed yeah um you're right mark i'm

29:13Dave Aronberg:seeing it too. It broke six minutes ago. Senator Bernie Sanders on the main U.S. Senate race, quote, I have spoken with Graham Plattner about the best path forward for Maine in light of these very serious allegations. I have recommended that he step aside. So does that, is that, is that it, Mark? When you have Sanders actually join the chorus? Yeah, it's a pretty big deal. Fellow New Englander, leader of the movement, as pointed out, just one of his major backers. So So, look, a planner can look at the Donald Trump and Bill Clinton examples and say, if I fight and win, I go for broke and I'm a U.S.

29:49senator and I can survive. If I get out, I'm probably done as a as a not just a political figure in Maine, but as a member of polite society in Maine. But no financial support, no backing of Sanders. I thought he had close to no chance to go on, as Tom said. But now I think it's now I think it's probably literally no chance.

30:10Dave Aronberg:Because we already saw that he was losing his funding, the National Democratic Senatorial Campaign, I think it was, or one of those formal fundraising groups already said we're out. All the other supporters have said we're out. As I said, even sort of the grassroots, more podcasty type influencers are saying we're out. And now you have Sanders saying we're out. I would say if you did a poll in Maine right now in the wake of the allegations, I think he'd be within five points of Collins. I did a focus group with Maine voters and they just don't care. No, I agree. I agree. I agree. Which is which is why that's on the other side of the ledger.

30:47Dave Aronberg:If you're if you're Graham Plattner and deciding what do you do here? But the only other guy they're talking about so far, at least, is this Troy Jackson, who's a former state senator in Maine. He lost the Democratic primary last month for Maine governor. and he's been floated as somebody who could succeed Plattner. Reading here from the Washington Examiner, he called for Plattner to drop out saying, I'm the best person to replace him. However, okay, however, guys, here's what Progressive Victory just posted. We began asking our contacts on the ground in Maine about Troy Jackson earlier today after seeing many suggestions that he should replace Plattner.

31:29Dave Aronberg:In our discussions, we have received troubling information, not only about Jackson's behavior, but the behavior of many prominent Maine Democrats toward women more broadly, both as a result of the credibility of the sources and in the interest of not seeing our movement make the same mistake twice. We are choosing to share some of this now as Maine Senate president in a state Senate caucus meeting several years ago. Troy Jackson, in a heated disagreement, struck a female colleague with a bottle. He threw at her. There are many witnesses, and it appears this is a widespread open secret within Maine politics and not an isolated incident.

32:03Dave Aronberg:This information is still developing. We'll provide more as we get it. I should note for the record, that's not been responded to by this Troy Jackson. It appears to be an allegation that was not made in any sort of official or formal setting. So we will assume he denies it for now. But the vetting thing is not going well, Tom Bevan. It's not it didn't go well with Platt. And maybe maybe this is the reason why. Who could forget these idiots who found Graham Plattner to begin with and then were so proud of themselves, did the media rounds, only to have all normies recoil in a horror that these are the people picking our political candidates.

32:40Dave Aronberg:Look at these two. We paid a nice firm a whole chunk of money and got some stuff back. Some of what you've seen on the news we got back. Other stuff we didn't. Did the vetting process turn up the tattoo that became so controversial? No. The Reddit posts, did that turn up in the vetting process?

33:08The firm sent us a thing, and it had some of the posts, but it didn't have all of them. And what did you think about that? How did you think your way through the fact that he had posted these things on social media? I said none of this will or should stop him from becoming a U.S. senator.

33:31Dave Aronberg:Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry. They might want to ask for a refund for that oppo research firm that they hired because they didn't do a very good job. Of course, of course, they didn't. Have you ever seen a bigger loser? I mean, you could just tell just his affect, the way he speaks, his defense of the vetting process. I don't know if he's connected with progressive victory, Mark Halperin, but they seem to be doing a better job in stopping certain other possibilities in their tracks so that they don't make this mistake. I mean, I think the biggest winners today are obviously Maine Republicans and Republicans nationwide who've got to be feeling this seat.

34:14Dave Aronberg:Notwithstanding what that betting poll showed is is a bit more secure for Team Red than it was two months ago. Well, you just imagine whoever the main Democrats pick, even if they somehow could pick somebody on Tuesday if Plattner gets out. It's a challenge to stand up a Senate campaign, even if you run a gubernatorial campaign this year. Standing up a federal Senate campaign, hiring everybody in the middle of the summer, fundraising, scheduling, and then going through vetting. You know, it's a crapshoot. Is it possible someone could get all that done and not have vetting issues and put a campaign up against Susan Collins, who, by the way, her and her team are killers?

34:53They're not they're not lackadaisical. They know how hard it will be for her to win the seat no matter what, because the nature of the state. So good luck to whoever it is. And they better be clean as a whistle because you can rest assured their own vetters may not find stuff. But the James Blair and the Republicans will find it all.

35:09Dave Aronberg:it's it's really not great to replace the one who's you know allegedly kidnapping and assaulting and raping women with one who threw a bottle at another woman in a heated disagreement i don't know where it hit her but there are apparently many witnesses again reports uh this group as an open secret so um last but not least this is not on the subject of graham plattner but it is on the subject of Mitch McConnell. There is a report out today that Mitch McConnell's been hospitalized for the past few weeks. And there's a woman who broke the story who's an independent journalist. I'll try to find her name here.

35:46Dave Aronberg:I had it a second ago. And she is reporting today that Mitch McConnell may be in a coma. He may be in a coma right now. And that as that news hit, his wife, Elaine Chao, former labor secretary under Trump, flew to China to meet with the Chinese vice president. Okay, so he was found unconscious and required CPR at his Washington, D.C. home following an apparent cardiac arrest. Reading here from a Daily Beast report that's based on this woman's and I think another's reporting. And now this woman, her name is Desiree Townsend. Again, she's the one who initially reported accurately, he was found unconscious at his home, is saying, yes, that she's now hearing that he is in some sort of vegetative state and possibly no brain activity, and that she's now waiting at the hospital for when his family, quote, eventually decides to move him off of life support.

36:53Dave Aronberg:He is still a sitting U.S. senator. He stepped down as majority leader, but he's still sitting U.S. senator. And there's speculation, Mark Halperin, that the reason possibly this is Steve Bannon's theory that they don't want to announce this is that he believes the senator's office is trying to avoid triggering a special election that would allow outgoing Kentucky Republican Representative Thomas Massey to run as an independent. There's some timing issue if this comes out about McConnell before August 3rd, about whether we can have a special election that might allow Massey to run or whether it would just go right to November in the general.

37:30Dave Aronberg:And I don't know how that would affect Massey. But can we just start on the issue about McConnell and the reporting there? What do you know and what do you think? Well, they've been very unforthcoming about what exactly has happened. We know he's had health issues in the past. I talked to someone today who I think knows more than he was willing to tell me, but I wouldn't be surprised if Senator McConnell didn't come back to the Senate and all this stuff about about who will replace him is is going to be very much on his mind in the mind of his team. They're extremely proprietary about that seat.

38:03Dave Aronberg:I got to say, I'm I'm sad about this. I know there are a lot of Republicans who don't like Mitch McConnell because he's been a Trump antagonist in more recent years. But the Mitch McConnell, I know, is the one who got Supreme Court justice and appellate court justice after one after the other through at a time when the Democrats were completely obstruction oriented around judges. And he accomplished some heroic feats around judges that he really should be applauded and remembered for. And look, you can't have your whole legacy be defined on whether you were on the right side of Trump. You know, it's just bullshit.

38:45Dave Aronberg:Like he served honorably for decades, became a leader in Republican. politics. He was a gentleman, but fought very hard when it came to judicial nominees. Forgive me for speaking of him in the past tense. There's no report that he has died. It's just, I understand he's obviously struggling right now. So, but if this does become a battle for, you know, legacy and the seat, Tom Bevin, it's not like this is going to go blue, this seat, but Thomas Massey actually potentially getting in to like, what a switcheroo that would be. I mean, I don't know if Trump would feel any better about Massey than he did about McConnell.

39:23No, that would be like one of those stories that, you know, Hollywood would reject because it seemed too far-fetched if that's how the whole thing worked out. But I agree with you. Mitch McConnell had a really interesting arc over the last few years of his career because when he was in the state, he's a master tactician. He was able to get the Supreme Court justices through. And you remember like there were all these memes of him going around and like with narcos and all these things like he was he was like dark cocaine mitch and all that fear the turtle all those things and then he subsequently the sort of the the the attitude flipped and he became uh among the least well-liked if you look at his favorability ratings they went absolutely into the tank in part driven by republicans and so uh he became one of the least liked members of the the establishment by the MAGA base, even despite his successes and accomplishments.

40:17Dave Aronberg:Look, I started my primetime show at Fox News. The very first guest ever was Ted Cruz. And my first question to him was, what's it like to be the most hated man in America? I have a long track record of liking and having a friendship with the least liked people in Washington. And I don't know if this is to my credit or to my shame, but I wear it as a badge of honor. It's good to get along with people if you can. Guys, thank you both so much. Good to see you both. Thanks, Megan. Yeah, you as well. All right, coming up next, we will have the latest on the Tyler Robinson hearing. We've been monitoring it all morning.

40:54Dave Aronberg:I'm going to summarize for you the major points that came out yesterday. I can see clearly a couple of places that they're going on this. It's fascinating how much the prosecution is showing. I mean, truly, my only conclusion is that they must be worried about the public PR battle and the jury pool because they don't have to be doing all this. And yet they are. And they just released some really like gripping video. It was moments before air and I was sitting there eating an apple, like staring at it and eating my apple, not able to speak. Doug came by. I'm like, I can't talk now. We're going to show it to you and talk about its meaning next.

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43:24Dave Aronberg:Now we want to get to day two of the Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing. And I just want to update you on what happened yesterday. Okay. And then I'll tell you what happened this morning. And then we're going to bring in our panel and we will discuss it. But our friend, Jack Posobiec, who has been doing great work with Turning Point in the wake of Charlie's death, as he did prior, is there at the trial and did a wonderful report online yesterday for the post-millennial about what happened in court. We, of course, checked it ourselves as we always do. We trust Jack, and he was right about his reporting, but you know, it's always good.

44:02Dave Aronberg:Uh, is it just, since, uh, more eyes are better. And I want to tell you what, what happened, some of the highlights. Okay. Uh, and then we'll get to the stunning video that was just released. Uh, okay. First yesterday to testify was officer Chris Bagley. He currently, or he, he was there because he served as a Utah Valley university officer on the day of the shooting. Now that in and of itself is interesting because they failed. UVU police failed to keep Charlie safe and to keep that roof secure. And I was told directly by my friends at Turning Point that the reason the Turning Point security team was not patrolling the roof or doing drones, taking a look at the roof is because they were told by the local cops that they were on it.

44:53Dave Aronberg:And we heard the head of the security team for Charlie say that to Sean Ryan. He went on his show and said something to that effect, that the locals had it. And this guy was the local. This is the UVU officer who was there the day of the shooting. And by the way, once you know that, it makes the Nestor cross-examination, she's the lawyer for Tyler Robinson of him yesterday come into more clear focus. Because do you remember, like this guy was used to set up the scene to talk about the shooting, to talk about the aftermath, and then what he did to find the scene of the shooting, the evidence he saw there, and so on.

45:42Dave Aronberg:So he's an important witness to talk about, this is the evidence we found at the scene and how it all went down. And she, it seems clear to me, was trying to diminish him by saying, you don't know your ass from your elbow. You know, ultimately, she's going to argue this guy. He couldn't keep Charlie safe. He's got a lot to cover up for. He's got a lot to answer for. Should we really be putting a lot of stock in his word? Because he's the one who failed to secure the entire scene because she did get after him yesterday in a soundbite. We played on the lack of security on the roof. And, you know, did you really know that?

46:21Dave Aronberg:I can't remember the specifics of it, but we listened to it yesterday. In fact, we'll just play it. Okay, here's her cross of this guy Bagley, SOT 36. The machines you walk through a TSA in the airport where it checks to see if you're carrying anything metal, what we all had to go through to get in the courtroom. Were there any machines like that set up or being used on campus that day? No. And as far as you know, were there any drones that were flying above campus that day? Not that I know of. And did anyone ever talk to you about covering anything near or on top of or in the low C building? Were you ever signed that area before the shooting?

47:04No. Do you know who was? I don't. And when you got up to the roof that afternoon, was anybody around that was law enforcement? No. Nobody on the roof? No. Nobody on the stairway? No. Nobody on the walkway? No. Okay.

47:29And in the state of Utah, is a campus a gun-free zone? Are students allowed to have guns on campus? It's an open carry state, so yes.

47:39Dave Aronberg:That actually is important, by the way, that Utah is an open carry state and UVU is an open carry campus. And therefore, it's fine to have. You don't need a license. So different, let me tell you, from Connecticut. But you don't need a license because it's a free state to carry a gun. We have a whole thing. It's called the Second Amendment. So these crazy leftists would have us get a license to have our free speech next. That's also an important amendment. In any event, this guy testified about being a UVU officer on the day of the shooting. He testified, he was shown a number of images depicting the campus, the buildings, and the surrounding area.

48:17Dave Aronberg:Of course, the defense objected to everything, and they were overruled. He said he was securing the area above the tent that was covering Charlie. He came in to do a shift for this special event. He observed Charlie arrive on campus, do a meet and greet. He saw there's several thousand people there in attendance. He heard a shot fired at 12.23 p.m. local time, which is 2.23 p.m. Eastern. Cannot forget that moment here, experiencing it ourselves. He said he saw Kirk lean to the left, going further under the tent. Then everybody started getting up and starting to run in more of a chaos kind of situation.

48:59Dave Aronberg:He said he recognized the noise is gunfire. He left his post. He began fighting against the crowd flowing against him. So I can help stop an individual that's probably shooting. And he's looking for the shooter. By the time he got to the bottom of the stairs, someone said or the radio, we had a shooter in custody. As Bagley recounted the events of the shooting, Erica Kirk left the room. This is actually kind of a stunning development. I know that Erica is going to leave and Charlie's family is going to leave. his sister is there too, not just his parents. When they get into the details of the shooting, none of them wants to take that in.

49:32Dave Aronberg:God bless them. Why should they have to? But Tyler Robinson is sitting in that courtroom and he was reportedly laughing at the beginning of the hearing, not during the testimony, but laughing. Picture it. And all the reports are that Erica burst out into tears before the hearing even got going. And Tyler Robinson is sitting there laughing. I mean, I just can't imagine this dynamic of Erica having to sit feet away from the man accused of murdering her husband, Charlie's poor parents and sister. Same. And soon, it could be today, it could be tomorrow, we haven't been told exactly when, they're going to play that videotape of Luna, Lance Twiggs, the lover, furry trans person of the defendant, Tyler Robinson.

50:20Dave Aronberg:and Tyler Robinson is going to see his trans furry lover testify against him. And it'll be the first time they've seen each other, I believe, since the crime and since Robinson's arrest. And he will have to sit there and listen to this lover sell him up the river. And that will be quite a moment inside that courtroom. um so Bagley went on talked about how he began assessing whether anyone else was injured didn't see any other injuries he did testify that he saw an empty pistol holder that was sitting on top of the grass but then realized that there was a rifle shot he could see the low c building that had a direct line of sight so he went there to see what was going on because he said he thought he heard the shot come from the east.

51:12Dave Aronberg:He was later pressed on the fact that that wasn't in his report that he had heard it come from the east, but he added that yesterday. And this would be in essence what brought him to the scene of the shooting, but it would also be his excuse for why he did not pick up that holder, the empty pistol holder. And I'm sure the defense is going to make something out of the fact that there was an empty pistol holder there that may have had evidence on it, DNA, et cetera, what was never retrieved. More on that and the stunning videotape right after this break. Are you feeling sluggish, bloated, not quite like yourself?

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53:05Dave Aronberg:I'm going to bring in our panel in a minute, but first I just want to continue telling you what happened yesterday and get you up to speed on where we are. I was in the midst of completing Officer Bagley's testimony. He was a UVU campus officer at the time of the Charlie shooting and was describing that he had seen an empty pistol holder that was sitting just on top of the grass. He would later testify that he lost track of it and it disappeared. I'm sure the defense will want to make something of that, but it is relevant that Utah is an open carry state. So it's not like there was a shooting and now I found an empty holster and it must have come from this empty holster.

53:46Dave Aronberg:It's Utah. It's open carry. There's probably holsters everywhere. And in the chaos of a mass evacuation in a scary, dangerous event, it wouldn't be entirely shocking to find somebody's on the ground. Perhaps somebody even pulled their weapon to protect themselves. but if you're the defense lawyer of course you're going to make something of that i mean of course i'd be arguing that's the real shooter that it wasn't my client who had that um and it wasn't a rifle it was a it was a pistol so that's where they're going more back to bagley he described um going over to the low c center right he claimed that he saw he he believed he heard the shot come from the east that's where the low c center was and that's the building on which the shooter Tyler Robinson, the accused shooter, was accused of being when he fired these alleged shots.

54:33Dave Aronberg:He said he got there and he discovered a red and black screwdriver. He was shown a photograph from the top of the low C center from which he said you could see the grass courtyard area and where Charlie had been speaking. He described images shown in the courtroom of gravel. So they showed the judge these images of gravel on the roof that had been disrupted of the low C center at the very top of the low C center, Bagley said he could observe what looks like a sniper pad, a person that has been laid in a prone position with the markings of elbows, knees and feet in the gravel in the line of sight where Charlie's tent was.

55:08Dave Aronberg:After his findings on the rooftop, Bagley said he asked dispatch to look at the camera system to see if anyone was on the roof at the time of the shooting. Now he's looking for corroborative evidence to what he's seeing in the gravel and this screwdriver, which he thinks may be relevant. And he says dispatch says there had been a man on the roof and described that he ran to the edge, dropped down, crawled, got in a prone position toward the direction of the tent. He then went to the police department in a nearby building to look at the footage himself. At that moment, I realized I had more crimes, a bigger crime scene than I needed to contain, that I needed to contain and preserve for that moment.

55:45Dave Aronberg:So you can see this guy Bagley's important. He went on to say that he went to the northeast side of the building. Outside the building, he saw impressions of the shoe print inside the grass and also up above on the northeast side of the building, I could see on the cement where someone had scuffed there, then dropped down to the shoe imprint. He's attempting to lay down the evidence of the path that the defendant, he is arguing, took. Kathy Nestor cross-examined him in the way that we showed you there, zeroing in on that holster. You know, what happened to it? Bagley said he did not know and that no one had taken custody of it.

56:32Dave Aronberg:Then came David Hull. He is currently with the Utah Department of Public Safety. He was working as a state bureau of investigation, major crimes division investigator at the time of the shooting. and they need Hull to get in all the videos that they have of who they say is Tyler Robinson that day. And that's, he started that yesterday afternoon and that's, he's still on the stand. That's what he spent this morning doing. So now we're getting up to speed to current moment. He testified that he was directed to go down to the university following the shooting. So Bagley's our guy to get us through the actual shooting.

57:11Dave Aronberg:And this guy came on the scene right after for, to investigate among the data gathered from the general public, because he testified that they received multiple videos from the general public, um, were through tips and social media. Okay. Were videos taken at the scene, multiple videos collected by the team were played in the courtroom, including clips of Charlie at the beginning of the event, a video showing the moment Charlie was shot as well as Charlie in the moments after he was shot. there was a stunning moment in which they played the judge seeing Charlie get shot. And I think I mentioned this yesterday, but he, you can't hear the audio.

57:53Dave Aronberg:You can hear a little bit. You can hear the shot go off, but you can see the judge, Judge Graff, react. He winces. And he is just you see the judge's humanity. He winces when you can hear the shot and you can see him struggling to contain his emotions as the sop plays out. In fact, no, it was on AM update. We didn't play it here. Can we play it now? Let's go ahead and play this video only on the monitors. And if there's sound associated with it, the sound to be played as well. You may proceed.

58:41Dave Aronberg:the listening audience you can see the judge at the moment of the shot and if you listen to turn the sound up you can hear the shot and he he jumps the way you do like a jump scare in a movie and then you can see him push his chair back it's an instinctive protective mechanism right like push your chair back from the screen like we all want to when we see that video you don't want anything to do with it you don't want to be seeing it you don't want it to be true and then he comes back in toward the laptop it's all very subtle but it's happening and then you can see the judge kind of put his tongue to the side of his mouth like you know he's it's stress that stress and anxiety manifesting in him and he's a consummate professional he's holding it completely together but you can just see his humanity and a judge a distinguished judge trying to control it and control his emotions because he is a human inside that robe.

59:34Dave Aronberg:He has a job to do, but he's a human. He's a human being who clearly has empathy for poor Charlie and what happened to him. And that comforts me to know that. Back to David Hull, again, who was with the State Bureau of Investigation, Major Crimes Division on the day of the shooting, who talked about the multiple videos. And he talked about the medical examiner who was at the scene who told him that he had pronounced Charlie dead. He testified that the Utah Medical Examiner's Office conducted an autopsy late in the evening of September 10th and that the cause of death was listed in the autopsy report.

1:00:12Dave Aronberg:He first said as a murder, the manner of death, a gunshot wound to the neck. The defense lawyer objected that the cause of death was actually listed as homicide, not murder, which is a legal distinction. Murder has to be proven in a court. And the comment was corrected. Hull said on the night of September 11th, the next night, Thursday, we received word from Washington County that an individual in the area had reached out to law enforcement and was wanting to turn themselves in for the incident at UVU. He said the name that they were given from Washington County was Tyler Robinson. After receiving the name, they put together a workup of his driver's lessons and other records to get some info on him, his car, and so on.

1:00:54Dave Aronberg:After that information, they were able to use video to try to track where Tyler Robinson went and that they were able to establish that Tyler Robinson, quote, had been on campus approximately four times throughout the day, twice before the shooting, the time of the shooting, and after the shooting, later in the evening into the early hours of the 11th. There was testimony about something, I think it was 1238 AM that night. So he was there twice before at the time of the shooting. And then in the week into the wee hours of between the 10th and the 11th, um, when asked if the man on the videos was in the courtroom, he was about to point out Tyler Robinson, the defense objected, which is such a bullshit objection.

1:01:39Dave Aronberg:But in any event, ultimately he was allowed to identify that the man sitting in the courtroom as Tyler Robinson was the man who was on those videos. And he also recounted footage that was gathered from nearby neighborhoods, including ring doorbell footage showing a vehicle consistent with the one identified as belonging to Robinson parking across the street again in the early hours of September 11th. What we would learn from Hull is that Tyler Robinson was there. It reminded me, frankly, of Brian Kohlberger, who stalked the location of his crime prior to committing it, of course, was there while committing it and then went back again after.

1:02:17Dave Aronberg:That's what they're saying Tyler Robinson did as well. It appears clear Tyler Robinson was there repeatedly at least four times that day. They'll argue about whether he pulled the trigger, but they're setting up that he was there. repeatedly. And then today we got to the videos that they found of Robinson, what who of who they say is Robinson. You look at these videos, you can't clearly tell it's Robinson. They're going to have to prove that. But there's definitely video of the same guy first in a maroon shirt and gray shorts on the campus and later in an outfit change. And they've got video of what they say is Tyler Robinson's car because now they know it's registered to him and to his mother.

1:02:56Dave Aronberg:There There was testimony by Hull to that effect. He's getting cross-examined now, but I want to show you first our compilation of the video we were watching just as we came to air. And I should also tell you, there was a fight late yesterday about whether the prosecution's compilation of all these videos, where they highlighted the man who we're supposed to focus on, they blurred the faces of some people, they made it more user-friendly, was objected to by the defense. She objects to everything. She's getting fucking annoying. um, objected to, and they didn't allow it in yesterday. Now today they, they laid the foundation by showing all the raw videos.

1:03:36Dave Aronberg:And then they asked the judge if they could then introduce the compilation video, which is a shorter summary that that's more user-friendly. She objected again and he sustained the objection. So, well, at least we, we, the media are not going to be able to see the compilation video. So he, he can see it, but for some reason, They don't want to make it easier for the media to see it. We'll do our own. Sorry to disappoint you, Ms. Nestor, but we're pretty good in the TV world of taking raw video and zeroing in. I think you're probably going to be happier with what the prosecution did, frankly, because we're under no obligation as the prosecutor is to keep it completely objective and admissible.

1:04:15Dave Aronberg:so whatever um we did what we could in the time we had before this just aired an hour and 20 minutes ago but here's three minutes of what they showed the court on the videos of who they say is tyler robinson all over the uvo uvu campus that day what are we seeing here agent hall uh that's the vehicle is believed to belong to mr robinson arriving in the parking garage on campus yeah what What time in the morning? Well, what time of the day? It's approximately 8.30 in the morning on September 10th, 2025. And what leads you to believe that this particular vehicle belongs to Mr. Robinson? Information that was provided regards to driver's license and Department of Motor Vehicle records.

1:05:01The vehicle fits the description of a vehicle owned by Mr. Robinson. Is there anything unique about that vehicle that stands out to you? The shape of the vehicle is very distinct, but predominantly the wheels were very distinctive on this version of the vehicle. Now what do we see? The driver of the vehicle exits the vehicle and then walks on foot to exit the parking garage. It's the individual in the red T-shirt and the shorts and the shoes. And do you believe you recognize who that person is? Yes. Who is that? I believe that's Tyler Robinson. All right. Where does he go from there? He heads out of the parking garage on foot into the campus and actually goes to the quad area of the campus.

1:05:50At that time, he makes contact with some representatives from TPUSA. By quad area? Sorry, the amphitheater is what I previously referred it to. All right. So he goes up on campus, visits the amphitheater area, the courtyard or quad correct um and and then what do we see here now he returns on foot back to the same vehicle and what time is he returning back to the vehicle uh it's about 9 25 a.m

1:06:25and where is this parking structure located on campus uh it's just off of campus drive um it's a short walk from the from the amphitheater What do we see now? That's the vehicle exiting with Mr. Robinson driving the vehicle.

1:06:48Now what do we see? This is Mr. Robinson returning to the campus on foot from the neighborhood to the northeast. You can see he's wearing the same clothing as in the previous video. And he's carrying a blue backpack. Describe the clothing. uh it's a maroon colored t-shirt uh with uh gray or olive colored shorts and then converse shoes

1:07:16and what time did he return to campus uh just after 10 a.m and does he leave the parking structure eventually uh he does yes and during this visit do you know where he goes after he leaves the parking structure. Yes, we were able to track his movements on campus. He went to Chick-fil-A in the Sorensen building and purchased some food, sat and ate the food.

1:07:43Dave Aronberg:Okay, so that's him prior to the murder. And then they showed video of a figure on the roof of the Losey building and video that has been publicly released. This is, there you can see a figure running on the top right of your screen running across this is him post shooting allegedly and here now for listening audience it it's a figure who appears to throw something down he's on this at the edge of the roof this has been made public prior to this so you may be familiar with it and he drops to the ground into the grass where the where the the officer had said he found a footprint and runs so this is what officer bagley said he witnessed when he went to the dispatch center and said, you know, I found evidence of some guy on the roof.

1:08:30Dave Aronberg:What do you have? And the dispatch saying, oh, yeah, no, we've got that, too. So they found the video. All right. Let's bring in our panel now and get their reactions. Dave Ehrenberg is here. So is Phil Holloway. They are co-hosts of the MK True Crime Show on the MK Media Podcast Network. Go and subscribe just by typing in MK True Crime in your podcast feed and it will come up. Guys, Thank you for being back with me. So, Dave, just give us your impression. I've given the audience a lot here on what on what's gone on yesterday and today. Give us your impression on what exactly is happening, what the prosecution is building and what the defense is trying to undermine.

1:09:06Megan, good to be back with you and Phil. This is the longest preliminary hearing that I've ever seen for something like this, where all you have to do is establish probable cause. I mean, this should be done in hours. But I think you're right that the reason why the prosecution is just using overwhelming force here, I mean, shock and awe, is to debunk the conspiracy theories out there, especially since the defense leaned into a ballistics report that was inconclusive. The prosecution so far has not challenged that. They've tried to like look away from the inconclusive ballistics into all the other evidence that's there, like his multiple confessions, his position on the roof, the video where he's running away.

1:09:47I mean, they've got a lot of evidence against this guy and they don't need to show it, but they are because they're aware of the gravity of this moment, how many conspiracy theories are out there. Some of it has been pushed by the defense themselves and they want to get ahead of it. Phil, what do you make of my comment that this guy's giving Brian Kohlberger vibes with the multiple visits before and even going back after midnight, the day, the

1:10:18Dave Aronberg:evening of the crime, like after the crime was committed? Yeah, that's an excellent point. And to echo Dave's very well-stated comments there, the prosecutor is showing way more of their cards than they, in my view, than they need to or they should. It's kind of like when you play poker, you don't show the rest of the table what you're holding in your hand. By giving this much detail and this much evidence, you're just giving the defense the opportunity to pick it apart for trial. But that being said, what they're showing is premeditation. They're showing deliberation. They're showing what they really would need to show to get the death penalty in this case.

1:10:59Now, this, of course, isn't the trial. This is not the penalty phase or anything like that. But it gives us a little bit of a preview of what we're going to see when there is a trial. And if you have this much premeditation, deliberation, preparation, consciousness of guilt, the fleeing from the scene, things of that nature. All of that goes to show that this was cold, this was calculated, this is the abandoned and malignant heart that we use to describe what malice is. This was truly a malicious act. The videos themselves, I think we could do, for purposes of the prelim, we could do with less of that, but the confession that we have yet to get to, you know, that's corroborated by these videos.

1:11:45So I agree with Dave to bring this all together. I think they could have done this in about an hour or two. You show the video of the shooting of Charlie Kirk. You show some of these videos for context, like we've seen, and then you get to the confession and then you put a big bow on it and say, okay, we're getting ready for trial now because we've established probable cause. A crime probably was committed. Well, clearly that shows that a crime was committed and that this defendant is probably the one who committed it. That's it. That's all you need to prove. This should be over in just a matter of hours.

1:12:18But it's dragging on and on and on, and it gives the defense more opportunities to chip away and to prepare their defense for trial.

1:12:26Dave Aronberg:I just want to point out to the listening audience, now we're looking at a different video that was shown of who they say is Tyler Robinson wearing a different outfit. Now he's in the outfit that the FBI says the shooter was wearing and he's walking funny. There's speculation that that's because he's got a long gun down his pants. He's walking kind of funny like with a limp. He's no longer wearing the gray shirts and shorts and the maroon t-shirt. And the testimony in court is that this is after the shooting. After the shooting or before the shooting? We're trying to figure this out. Forgive me because we grabbed this video and enhanced it like zoomed in just so you could see it better.

1:13:04Dave Aronberg:But it must be, it's got to be before the shooting because I believe this is the video from which they made the pictures that we identified Tyler Robinson. And the allegation is that after the shooting, he jumped off of the rooftop and dropped the gun down below and then buried it or hid it in the woods. So this, my deduction is it's got to be on his way to the shooting. But the, here's the question I have for you, Dave Ehrenberg. The prosecution needs to prove they want to prove that this was him, that he he stalked his prey. You know, he he showed up at nine at 830 a.m. the morning of Charlie's appearance that he was there for an hour.

1:13:43Dave Aronberg:They said he it took him. He arrived at 830 and he left at 925. And in that time, he went to the quad and he made contact with a TPA, TPUSA representative. representative. Maybe he's asking exactly when Charlie's expected, you know, who knows that poor turning point rep will probably wind up being a witness and had no idea, right, who they're talking to or who they're giving information to. And then he returns, they said a little after 10 a.m. We saw the car pulling out of the garage at 925, a little after 10 a.m. They said he returned on foot, but they said he returned on foot with the same outfit, that maroon tee and the gray shorts, and that he went to Chick-fil-A at the Sorensen Center on campus and then returned back on campus, like on proper campus, no longer carrying the backpack.

1:14:37Dave Aronberg:And I believe that's when he changed his outfit and got rid of the backpack. That we need to shore up because that was not clear to me from what I heard, but it's one thing to tell the judge and eventually the jury, Dave, that's Tyler Robinson. There he is. And it's another to prove it, right? Because if you're Nestor, she's questioning everything. She is not giving the prosecution any gimmies. It's actually annoying. But on this, she should question, right? She should say, how do you know it's Tyler Robinson? Now on the car, they've got the registration. They can see the plates and the The car, the officer testified, is registered to Tyler and his mother.

1:15:15Dave Aronberg:And there was testimony that she bought it for him. So I guess that's halfway there. Then you've got to prove that's actually him getting out of it. So how do they do all that? If you're the prosecutor, as you have been for years, how do you do that? Step by step, Megan, first they identified his Dodge Challenger. And then because they ran his license plate, they had driver's license details. So they know that that's his car. And then you had Agent Hull who testified that the person in the video showed a distinctive limp that you can see yourself. And then you want to try to tie it to him. Once that Robinson turned himself in, they could correlate that the timeline matched the digital footprint, including the cell phone data and the specific route that was identified via the Google Map records.

1:16:12So the fact that he was there on campus four times that day, that does give the Koberger vibe. Someone who's scouting it out and then comes back over and over again. I just think that you just have to put all the stuff together with all the totality of the evidence to show that this is the guy. The defense is doing the right thing by asking all these questions. Although, yeah, she's getting a little annoying, but she is using this as a way to get the cards, as Phil said, from the prosecution. The prosecution is showing so much evidence. They're giving the defense a great amount of stuff that they wouldn't normally have.

1:16:48So this hearing can actually benefit the defense more than the prosecution because they're getting all this good info, even though they don't have twigs in person. Oh, yeah.

1:16:58Dave Aronberg:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, they're not going to be able to talk to Twiggs, but they're going to hear what he has to say. I mean, to me, it's interesting because, Phil, all this stuff, like, doesn't the defense already have access to all of this, right? The prosecution doesn't get surprises. They have to turn everything over to the defense. And so it's different to hear them stitch it together and to hear their narrative. But the defense should not be surprised by any of these exhibits. No, they're not surprised by the evidence or the exhibits. but here's what they don't have until there's a hearing.

1:17:32They don't have sworn testimony from these witnesses under oath. And let me explain just a minute, if I may, why that could backfire on the prosecution because these are witnesses that are going to come forward at trial, okay? There's going to be a transcript of this preliminary hearing and the testimony from these witnesses. If their story is any different, if their testimony varies one iota at trial, the defense is going to whip out the printed transcript of this particular testimony, and they're going to, even if it's just innocuous, if it's something just a minor misstatement or something like that, they're going to try to show the jury that they said one thing during the preliminary hearing and then something else during the trial, and they're going to try to impeach them potentially with any prior inconsistent statements.

1:18:22The other thing that it does is it gives the defense sort of the opportunity to see how witnesses testify. How do they do on cross examination? What's their demeanor? How are they going to play to a jury? So this really does give the defense a lot to work with. We have a group text amongst our MK truth crime hosts, and we've been talking about this case. And our friend and colleague Mark Garagos commented that this length of a preliminary hearing is good for the defense. And he's not wrong. He's absolutely right. This was a mistake to do it the way they're doing it for this to go on for so long.

1:19:03They need to just get the core evidence out there. They have to prove that a crime probably was committed and that this guy probably did it. And that's it. They could do it like we were talking about just in a matter of a few hours. The other thing they could have done is they could have sent this to a grand jury for a grand jury indictment so that that would be a judicial determination of probable cause. But by doing it in this fashion, not only are they frustrating us in the media because we can't see all the evidence that the judge is seeing, but they're giving the defense lots to work with when it comes to trial preparation.

1:19:39Dave Aronberg:Listen to this, Bill. The failure to use a grand jury and to go for a preliminary hearing where you have to lift the dress way up has boggled the minds of a lot of lawyers, including this one. But we actually did take a deep dive into it. We had been told yesterday that it's not favored in Utah. They don't use grand juries a lot. And then we did a deep dive, and here is what we found. In Utah's criminal justice system, grand jury indictments are rare. The Utah Supreme Court laid this out in a 2015 decision. The vast majority of felony cases are prosecuted by information, That is by a prosecutor filing charges directly in district court.

1:20:17Dave Aronberg:The historical role of the grand jury is now generally played by the district court itself, which holds preliminary hearings to review the state's evidence and reject unjustified prosecutions. A prosecutor wishing to prosecute by indictment must first persuade a special panel of five district judges. This is if you want to go jury, grand jury, that there is good cause to summon a grand jury. If the panel then summons the grand jury, the prosecutor may then ask the jurors to return an indictment and charge the defendant without a preliminary hearing. But they make it intentionally difficult for some reason.

1:20:51Dave Aronberg:They really don't like impaneling grand juries in Utah, which is why they do the preliminary hearing. And once you've said, you know, you're going to ask the district court to give you an indictment, the defendant has the right to demand the preliminary hearing. And that's, you know, Bob's your uncle. You're off to the races, which is what happened here. I don't know why they don't like the grand jury, but they don't like it in Utah. That's why the prosecution is doing it this way. I want to go back to these videos because. this video that we're going to see here, we showed part of it just a moment ago of him now in a different outfit.

1:21:27Dave Aronberg:This is the outfit that was released by the FBI as being worn by Charlie's killer. And this is the, these are the pictures. This is the video of the still shots that were used to identify who is this shooter. The FBI put it out on September 11th saying, this is our shooter. Does anybody know who this is? And it would turn out that Tyler Robinson's own mother and father saw it and both said, oh my God, that's our son. They both started texting him. The mother saying, where are you? He claimed he was sick, homesick, and that he had been the day before. The father saying, send me a picture of grandpa's gun right now, because he knew the FBI had released the picture that law enforcement had it, had recovered the gun.

1:22:14Dave Aronberg:And the father recognized it. And they were also worried because they saw the pictures of the shooter and they said, geez, that looks a lot like Tyler. You know, it's like the same way we've been looking at porch guy in the Nancy Guthrie case saying, we don't know who the hell that is. But if you were married to that dude, you would know you, you know, when it's your family member, your spouse, your kid, your dad, you know, in a way that strangers don't. So now we're seeing the actual videotape from which these still images were were taken. And and this is what was played in court just as we were coming to air.

1:22:48Dave Aronberg:And we'll hear the narrative about the videotape. We showed you Tyler Robinson, allegedly in the maroon shirt and the gray shorts parking, coming in at 830, leaving at 925. Then he came back at 10. And now there's the here's the testimony about the video of who they say is Tyler wearing the same outfit as the shooter here. The images that we have are from from my viewing and seeing Mr. Robinson on the video. It's the same person. He's noticeably wearing different clothing. He is wearing different clothing. And he also is walking with a gate or a limp in this With a gait or what? Limp. Okay.

1:23:35Now what do we see? It says Mr. Robinson coming up the stairs of the parking structure. Again, he seems to be having issues walking.

1:23:52and again were you able to track so were you able to track mr robinson uh when he leaves this parking structure yes we were able to okay so when he leaves okay so then they continue and

1:24:06Dave Aronberg:they're the testimony is that this is prior to the shooting i mean dave this is actually quite eerie You know, we're sort of doing a forensic analysis of it. But what they're arguing is that he was on his way to murder our friend who was out there asking questions, who had kissed his wife, Erica, goodbye early that morning while she was still in bed. He left so early, who couldn't sleep the night before, who had a feeling about something possibly happening, who had been under nonstop security threats, who was not well served, unfortunately, by good-hearted men who were supposed to protect him that day, who didn't anticipate the rooftops, notwithstanding Butler 14 months earlier.

1:24:50Dave Aronberg:And Tyler Robinson, according to the police and the prosecution, had murder on his mind and was limping because that long gun given to him by his grandpa was running down his pant leg. And would be one of the reasons he would get caught. Because he, you know, if you believe the text messages between Tyler and his lover Lance Twiggs, he hid it in the woods on his escape and couldn't get back to it. The cops got turned on to the woods too soon, and so he wasn't able to get back. And maybe that's why he went back there, because if memory serves, we weren't aware that they had the gun until the next day.

1:25:30Dave Aronberg:So it could be at 12.38 a.m. on the wee hours of Thursday the 11th. That's what he was doing back there, trying to clean up after himself and couldn't manage to do it. Yeah, Megan, a quick question, if I can joke. didn't, wasn't there some, as I recall, some of the statements that he made to Twigs were the effect that, you know, I need to go back for my rifle. As I recall, that was what the conversation was. And we're going to hear more about that, of course, when we hear from Twigs. But that will, or at least through his statement. And then, of course, at trial, we'll hear from Twigs and anybody else.

1:26:06But that, I think, explains why he went back. And, you know, it makes sense that if If you're going to sort of preposition items that you may need for an assassination, you might make multiple trips to go get your spot set up, get your sniper's den set up, and then have to leave in a hurry and then go back to clean up your mess. So this all actually makes pretty good sense to me.

1:26:28Dave Aronberg:Yes, he is lamenting in his text exchange with Lance Twiggs how he wasn't able to get his rifle, and he thought that was the only thing that could identify him. And there was also testimony, well, Dave, I wanted to get you to respond to my other point about how eerie it is and how they're setting it up and how, you know, it's also forensic and antiseptic. And yet, you know exactly what these actions allegedly produced. This had to take some real planning. You know, he had different outfits. He was limping when he had the gun on him. And then later he's not. He's wearing something different later on.

1:27:01And then he had to try to find out how to get the gun back. even messaged twigs at some point about how they'll be together later on in life. So this took planning, and that means premeditation, and that means the death penalty. And it is quite telling that this judge had every opportunity to take the death penalty off the table because he is holding the prosecutors in contempt for speaking too much, for giving a statement to TMZ, which I think is overplayed. I don't think the judge should do that, but OK. But instead of sanctioning the prosecution by taking the death penalty off the table, he's refusing to do that.

1:27:39He's leaving it open to other sanctions. And that tells you that I think that this is going to be a capital case and that it's very likely that this defendant gets the ultimate punishment.

1:27:51Dave Aronberg:Yes, yes. And if they prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt, that's exactly what he should get. There should be absolutely no mercy for him. He had none for Charlie. Here is some of what was in that text exchange that they say is between Lance Twiggs and Tyler Robinson as he starts to panic that the gun has been left there. Let's see. It says, I'm stuck in Orem. I am still okay. He starts off with September 10th, the day of the murder. Lance Twiggs received a text message from Tyler Robinson, which said, drop what you're doing. Look under my keyboard. He looked under the keyboard. He found a note that stated I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it.

1:28:37Dave Aronberg:Police found a photograph of the note, I believe on Lance Twiggs phone. Then the following text exchange took place. After reading the note, Lance Twiggs responded, what? You're joking, right, Robinson? I am still okay, my love, but I'm stuck in Orem for a little while longer yet. Shouldn't be long until I can come home, but I got to grab my rifle still. To be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret till I died of old age. I'm sorry to involve you. Roommate, you weren't the one who did it, right? Robinson, I am. I'm sorry. Roommate, I thought they caught the person. Robinson, no, they grabbed some crazy old dude, then interrogated someone in similar clothing.

1:29:12Dave Aronberg:I had planned to grab my rifle from my drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town got locked down. It's quiet, almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering. Roommate, why? Robinson, why did I do it? Roommate, yeah. Robinson, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I am able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence. Going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't seen anything about them finding it. Again, they didn't release the timestamp on this, but one might assume it's prior to 1238 a.m. on the 11th, which is when they said he did.

1:29:49Dave Aronberg:He is on video again. Roommate, how long have you been planning this? Robinson, a bit over a week, I believe. I can get close to it, but there's a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot, but I don't want to chance it. He goes on, I'm wishing I had circled back and grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle. I'm worried what my old man would do if I didn't bring back grandpa's rifle. I don't even know if it had a serial number, but it wouldn't trace to me. I worry about Prince. I had to leave it in a bush where I changed outfits. Didn't have the ability or time to bring it with.

1:30:21Dave Aronberg:I might have to abandon it and hope they don't find Prince. How the fuck am I going? Will I explain losing it to my old man? Only thing I left was the rifle wrapped in a towel. And then goes on to say, remember how I was engraving bullets? The effing messages are mostly a big meme, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Judging from today, I'd say grandpa's gun does just fine. Ugh, I know. See what I mean? All we've got to do is show the video of the assassination and then some context and then get into that particular text message confession with all those details. And then you've got probable cause. It's like right there with a bow on it.

1:31:05And so I just am still scratching my head why this is going to be something that takes an entire week. I've handled prelims that take five minutes. I've handled them that take a few hours, but we certainly are not accustomed, at least not in my neck of the woods anyway, to preliminary hearings that go on for days and days and days. That would be called a trial. But this is just a bit of overkill, if you ask me, pardon the pun, but for a preliminary hearing, this is just too much.

1:31:33Dave Aronberg:This has got to be for the benefit of someone other than that judge, does it not, Dave? Absolutely. That is for the public. It's for all of us. and it's trying to quell the conspiracy theories. I think that foreign governments are behind them. They're showing this guy has admitted it. There's no ties to anyone else. He did it for a clear motive. He was upset at Charlie Kirk for stuff he said. He decided to play God, take matters into his own hands, and he wanted to win the affections of twigs and live happily ever after together. He thought he'd get away with it. He was already pretty much just saying, oh, his concern was not necessarily that they'd find the gun and tie it to him and he would get convicted.

1:32:11It was, oh, my father is going to be upset that grandpa's gun is not back. Oh, wow. So, yeah, not good. I mean, like, I.

1:32:21Dave Aronberg:How do we like? I don't know. Maybe I'm just being naive, but it's like, how does somebody who was relatively high functioning up to this point. Become so cavalier about murder like, oh, I've been planning it for like a week, like a week earlier, he got the idea to murder Charlie Kirk in this, and I don't use this favorably, but you know what I mean, spectacular fashion. And then he does it. And then it's like, oh, the grandpa's rifle works great. Like he's not by anybody else's account, some massive sociopath running around torturing animals, Phil. Like, isn't that one of the biggest mysteries around this case.

1:33:06Dave Aronberg:And one of one of the reasons why people have doubts about whether he in fact is the shooter. It's like, what? How did this guy who, according to that one video we saw of his mom shortly before he went off to college, had I think he had gotten a scholarship. Now, he didn't last at the university to which he'd gotten the scholarship, but he wasn't, you know, prior to this year leading up to the shooting, he seems to have been rather high functioning. And you really do have to ask yourself, how did this happen? Well, in my opinion, the thing that happened to Tyler Robinson that transformed him from a relatively high-functioning individual to a brazen assassin was the normalization of political violence and the violent rhetoric that we hear from so many, particularly on the left, who may take issue with anything that conservatives have to say.

1:34:00Look, it's no secret whatsoever that Charlie Kirk inspired lots of people to think about things and to talk about things. And what he did in life was to try to get people talking to each other so that they could have a free exchange of ideas. But for so many people, that's just not tenable. They want to hear something that someone else says, and if it's different from their point of view, then they believe that it's okay to commit acts of violence or to talk about violence against those people. So that, to me, is the simple explanation. I think it's the one that makes the most sense because, to your point, Megan, there's got to be something that causes someone to snap that way.

1:34:46He doesn't apparently have any other psychiatric disabilities or disorders. He doesn't seem to be like a sociopath. He's not like some of the serial killers that we've seen. He's not like a Koberger type in that sense. This is all about the normalization, in my opinion, of political violence, and this is how it plays out. Megan, this is Luigi Mangione. I mean, this is the same type of thing.

1:35:11Dave Aronberg:I know, I was thinking of him too. Yeah, and not only, so when you're surprised about how people can be so radicalize Luigi Mangione from Ivy League schools, no priors, and look what happens to him. And then you see today all these ghouls who are hanging outside the courtroom praising Luigi Mangione and worshiping him, knowing that he did this. It's not like they're saying he didn't do it, he's innocent. No, they're saying, no, this is deserved. This is justified in today's political climate. That line, some hate can't be negotiated out. Just chilling. It's like to believe that and think you have the right to end someone's life because they're too hateful to be here.

1:35:55Dave Aronberg:And then to have watched the left defend this for the past 10 months, that Lucy Rodriguez pretending to shoot herself in the neck, she's still teaching children in Chicago. So that behavior wasn't too extreme for them to fire her. Like there is just a collection of people out there that finds this kind of political violence acceptable. It's so deeply disturbing. It's I wish it were just the shooters. I wish it were, but it's not. There's a collection, like you say, of those who show up at the Luigi hearings who think it's fine, of those who have celebrated Charlie's murder, who at heart think it's fine and actually applaud it, actually are in favor of it.

1:36:36Dave Aronberg:It's sick. Dave, thank you for helping to put people like that behind bars for many, many years. Phil, thanks to you as well. Everybody check them out on MK True Crime, wherever you get your podcasts for free. We're going to come back with more on the hearing with Mark Garagos, Mark Eiglarsh, and Jonna Spilbore. All three of these practice in the criminal arena have been on both sides, at least Mark Eiglarsh has. And we'll get their take on where this is going and show you the latest that's happening inside the courtroom. Our sponsor, the Electronic Payments Coalition, says Washington politicians are always getting in your wallet, which you know, and now they're messing with your credit card too.

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1:37:56Dave Aronberg:Find out more about this whole situation at guardyourcard.com and consider telling Congress to guard your card. Hey, everyone. It's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM. It's called the Megan Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth, unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies. Along with the Megan Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news. Only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

1:38:39Dave Aronberg:We are back now with Mark Garagos, co-host of In the Well on our MK Media Podcast Network. Mark Eichlarsh and Jonna Spilbar, who host Positively Legal. You can find it all on our MK True Crime YouTube channel. MK True Crime. Just type that in and all these shows will come up. Jonna, we were going to get your take on where things stand as of right now. Catherine Nestor cannot have a realistic expectation that this case is not going to be bound over for trial. So what I think she's doing, which is pretty clear from this dog and pony show, she is simply setting up now testimony that will become useful when and if this case goes to trial to sort of have police officers and other witnesses.

1:39:25tripping over their tongues based on maybe testifying differently at trial than they are now. Now, we don't want that to happen when you're prosecuting this case. But when you get down this granular and you try to get this nitty gritty with these witnesses who are going to have a long time before this case goes to trial, who will have to review their testimony in transcripts before the case goes to trial, that's just an opportunity to chip away in front of what is really going to matter here. And that's a jury. And that goes to the identification of Tyler Robinson, too. She's probably preserving those objections because that's an argument better made or that's evidence better laid before a jury.

1:40:05Do they have the right guy? That's that argument is going to fall flat in front of this judge, but it may not fall flat in front of 12 strangers down the road.

1:40:15Dave Aronberg:You know, I was asking my earlier panel, how do they prove that this is Tyler Robinson in these videos, arriving at the campus at 830, leaving at 925, coming back a little after 10 on foot, coming in an outfit change, now limping because prosecutors are going to argue he's got a long gun down the leg of his pants and then ultimately on that roof. And one of the things we haven't really seen anything about or heard anything about is cell phone evidence or the data from the car. You know, like we saw in Alec Murdoch. You know, we heard so much about that crime thanks to his car. Your car is spying on you these days.

1:41:01Dave Aronberg:So what do you make of that? How how helpful do you anticipate those other items could be? OK, so I equate the video that we're seeing now to, I don't know, like bloodshot eyes in a DUI case that in and of itself wouldn't necessarily prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. It's just one piece of the puzzle. The other evidence, like the DNA and the confession, will definitely go a long way towards increasing the chances of him being convicted at trial, assuming there is one. The absence of cell phone data either is because they haven't yet put it in or they better as hell have an explanation from one of their experts as to why for some reason they don't have it in this case because people have come to expect it.

1:41:45Dave Aronberg:Well, especially because we know he was texting with Lance Twiggs. I mean, allegedly later that evening about allegedly having done it. So, I mean, if that's true, he should have had his cell phone or a laptop on him, both of which would be potentially traceable. and should tell us exactly where he was and when. Shouldn't they, Mark Garagos? It's very hard to hide your tracks these days. That's correct, which is in most people who have a couple of neurons firing, if you're committing a crime, you're not going to take your phone with you or you're going to have what prosecutors love to call a burner phone with you that doesn't have a smartphone feature of some kind that's traceable.

1:42:29But if he planned this, the prosecutor is going to argue if they don't have cell phone evidence or if the phone is sitting in one particular spot during the time that the shooting took place, they're going to say he didn't take it with him. And that'll be the explanation for it. If they have the cell phone evidence in the data and the triangulation and the pinging off the towers and also the GPS feature, then they may just use that coming later on as kind of the coup de grace. They may have a so-called summary witness who will lay it all out at the end.

1:43:08Dave Aronberg:But I think that's coming later. I think you're right, because it's not listed on the items that they anticipate introducing at this preliminary hearing, which, again, they only need to convince this judge that they have probable cause to believe that Tyler Robinson committed this crime. They don't have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. The standards of evidence are relaxed. It's just a much different proceeding than an actual jury trial would be. And the standard is different, too. Here's another video. This is a testimony that was received not long ago showing another piece of the trail.

1:43:39Dave Aronberg:We showed earlier the video of him allegedly arriving at 830 and then leaving at 925. And now here's more testimony from this witness who's been walking us through all the videos they have allegedly of Tyler Robinson. Check it out. And what time is this? It's just afternoon, about 1215. On what day? on December, sorry, September 10th, 2025. What just happened or what did we just see happen? The individual actually kind of rolls over the railing onto the roof of the Loci building. All right.

1:44:20And again, in the top left corner, the individual is now seen running across the rooftop of the Loci building to what would be the southwest corner of the building. crouching down and then crawling to the corner of the building.

1:44:38And this is at what time? Around 12.23. I think the timestamp on the video is 12.22. On the 10th? On September 10th, yes. 2025. So we're clear, this is the roof of the Loci building? Correct. Can you still see that individual? uh yes you can laying prone that is laying prone i mean wait what'd you say garagos that individual both the questions and the answers but to describe the individual but we've seen the close-up video

1:45:16Dave Aronberg:of the individual and he's wearing the same outfit as you know the the one that they would later say is the shooter and please help us identify him who they say is tyler robinson i just think like there's going to be there's this is how it's done. Is it not? I mean, you guys tell me, but like if you're a prosecutor, you've got to cobble together bit by bit. Tyler Robinson's car re-entered the UVU campus at whatever, right before 1215. The shooting happened at 1223. They've got him on the roof for this figure who now looks exactly like Tyler Robinson, who's returned. We've got his vehicle. Perhaps they have vehicle of him or video of him getting out of his vehicle.

1:45:56Dave Aronberg:I'm not exactly sure whether they I haven't seen that. I've only seen him show up in his vehicle at eight thirty, leave at nine twenty five that they said he came back at 10 a.m. and then he came back again. He left and then came back. It could have been on foot. But in any event, they're trying to establish that it's him. He changed his outfit. Now he's got the long gun. It's down his pants. Now we've got video of somebody who looks an awful lot like that figure who was just limping on camera, who looks exactly like him on top of a roof, lying down, lying prone. And they're going to have the moment of the shooting as well.

1:46:25Dave Aronberg:we've shown them just today, we've shown on the audience of the video of the shooter, then running off the roof, jumping down. I mean, this is very unusual, Jonna, to have the entire crime on tape. Like this is kind of a prosecution dream. Yeah, it is because you can't swing a dead cat without being on video these days. And this is a classic circumstantial case. And the fact that it's a capital case doesn't change that. I mean, How often do we have criminal cases where we see the person shoot the victim? I mean, it does happen sometimes, but it doesn't happen always. There are plenty of other crimes where we have to piece it together because nobody is an eyewitness to the actual event that is the crime.

1:47:06And this is going to be one of them. And again, here we here we are in the in the preliminary stage, literally, of this case where, you know, I'm a little surprised that the prosecutor isn't holding back something. Like they should really be doing a bare bones and not allowing a five day dog and pony show for the defense to set this up the way they're doing it. I'm surprised that the prosecution is kind of playing into the defense's hand here that way. There we go. Megan, that's the point. Two two things that are very unusual. One, Jonna making some metaphor about swinging a cat. I don't know what she's doing in her spare time.

1:47:41Sorry, I don't get that. And number two and number two, in reality, in real life. And Garagos, I'm sure, would say the same. And Jonna, this would be a two hour hearing. Hearsay is admissible. Let's just get through it. Did a crime probably occur? Is it probably him? That's the lowest standard, probable cause. We're done. Now, I was OK with it because I was like, God, there's a lot of conspiracy theorists out there. They all think he's not guilty. And then they start doing this trial. And then the feedback we're getting on social media and at my law firm where they're calling, calling my assistant saying I'm a nut for giving legal analysis, suggesting that there might be evidence that he's guilty.

1:48:24People are either not watching or they don't want to hear. So what's the point? If it's not helping the public, then get through it in two hours and prove it to a jury, which is the only thing that damn matters.

1:48:35Dave Aronberg:But interesting, you know, to the end, to the end on Kohlberger, we had Kohlberger truthers. You know, the guy pleaded guilty to quadruple homicide. And still we had truthers who were like, no, it wasn't him. I was like, yeah, in my experience, you just a true conspiracy theorist and not everybody who doubts Tyler Robinson's guilt is a conspiracy theorist. Some some are. But a true conspiracy theorist can never be convinced out of the conspiracy. It does not matter what you show to them. So you raise an interesting point, Eiglarsh, that if if this really is for conspiracy theorists in the truest sense of that term, they're wasting their time.

1:49:19Dave Aronberg:But if it's for jury pool members who may just be confused or have doubts and the prosecution's convinced if they see some of this tape, they won't have them and could potentially serve once the jury is chosen. Maybe it's different. You know, I mean, that's a miscarriage of justice. That shouldn't happen. The purpose should not be to poison the potential jury pool if it's to, you know. Or I think they'd argue unpoison. It shouldn't. It should have nothing to do with that. It shouldn't. It shouldn't be to influence the jury pool in any respect. That's not due process. Period. Go ahead, Garagos.

1:49:58Well, the the interesting thing is I've I've evolved, if you will, on cameras in the courtroom. I now fervently believe that you should have cameras in the courtroom for trials. I think that it's vital, especially what I call supersized trials like this. You should have cameras in the courtroom. I think, and I agree with Jonna and Mark, and actually Phil was also talking about it along with Dave. The prosecution could put this case on in minutes. I wouldn't even say hours. I mean, I used to have a friend who was a DA who used to see how few questions he could ask in order to get somebody held to answer.

1:50:43And I think his winning one was, what happened next? What happened next? Please hold the answer. But I think the prosecution's calculation is that they want to make this appear to be a slam dunk case for whatever reason. I won't go into their motives, because all this does is give the defense the ability to engage in what the defense should be doing, which is exactly what they are doing during this preliminary hearing. What I do, I'm sure what Mark and John do. You presented with a series of witnesses. You're going to question. You're going to test. You're going to push. However, to also their point, this is not the trial.

1:51:28So it is improper to try to influence a jury pool. But from a defense standpoint, that jury pool is overwhelmingly already has a prejudgment rate of guilt. The one kind of niche, if you will, is kind of the you call them the truthers. I would just call them the tinfoil hat wearers who generally until they hear the words out of somebody's mouth, do not believe it no matter what you present.

1:52:00Dave Aronberg:And even then. Right. AI generated. Not real. Yeah. Or just like forced into it under threat of what I don't know how people say Kohlberger didn't. You know, it's like I I'm done. I don't feel the need to reason with those people. You know, it's like, OK, take care. Like, believe whatever the hell you want. I don't care. He's in jail. That's the important thing. It's actually I think to that point, I think the I think this backfires on the prosecution in a lot of ways. Ultimately, it may not make any difference, but it certainly is not moving the ball forward for them in terms of those who believe he's guilty.

1:52:37aren't going to come away from this, having their minds changed.

1:52:41Dave Aronberg:Those who I know conspiracy. Well, that's that's what makes me sad, because, you know, like I see some of my friends like fervently retweeting some of these segments and these videos being like, you see, and they're not showing it to their audience on X or elsewhere to show them what's happening at the hearing to say this is what the prosecution has. This is how they're stitching together the case. They're tweeting it to say this disproves this piece of whatever conspiracy theory this disproves this. It's like you are wasting your time and your breath. Like one thing I know from 20 plus years in news is there is no disproving a conspiracy theory in the mind of a true conspiracy theorist.

1:53:27Dave Aronberg:It's not possible. They will just continue moving the goalposts. and then when you ask them to sit across from you and explain how it all went down like how was this person controlled by whom how would they argue this how how did they get control what is the evidence of it how like they can't do it they will just get out of bounds because it's just the way the mind works and part of the issue is we've had so many conspiracy theories come true over the past few years. You know, like we we did find out that covid was from a lab and it wasn't from a pangolin in some wet market. We were lied to about that.

1:54:12Dave Aronberg:We did find out that the vaccine caused myocarditis and other issues, especially in young teenage boys, which we were fucking lied to about it. We did find out that the six foot rule of not getting close to one another was totally made up and had no basis in science trademarked. We did find out that Jay Bhattacharya was not some conspiracy theorist. He was a legitimate doctor who was raising real concerns about whether we should just do focused protection on the elderly and not quarantine masses, the masses across America and the globe. Like COVID in particular was an experience in which conspiracy theories wound up all being true and the real nutcases were the ones in government power lying to us.

1:54:57Dave Aronberg:There's a real hangover from that. Right. And like people disbelieving official narratives. It's so true. I as one who was litigating during that entire COVID period. I mean, I remember the restaurants, outdoor restaurants, and having to fight that fight and sue the government. And to quote Gorsuch, this idea that this case out of Boston, Jacobson, U.S. Supreme Court case, became a towering presence. The problem that COVID presented is that people who are already had mental health issues, it amplified those issues. And people who didn't have mental health issues, who were trying to rationally examine stuff, were basically kind of forced in or lumped in with the others.

1:55:48And it is unfortunate, COVID, to your point, I mean, that was one of the best 90 seconds summaries I've heard since listening to Carola talk about it, that the COVID did an enormous amount of damage to the U.S. And specifically in California, where I am, California just became kind of unmoored from reality and rationality. I mean, when you think back to bulldozing the beaches or arresting a guy on a paddleboard, I mean, it sounds insane now, but at the time it was, you know, you were pilloried if you disagreed with it. And that lays the foundation for now kind of this taking a circumstantial evidence case, which, by the way, the law says it are two reasonable interpretations, the one that points towards innocence.

1:56:43But we've lost kind of this ability collectively to believe what is reasonable or rational at a certain level.

1:56:53Dave Aronberg:Mm hmm. There's a couple of other things just just to add, you know, the Epstein controversy where people believe that there really was some elite cabal covering up for other elites so that they wouldn't go down. And then there was a revolt when the administration didn't want to release any more Epstein documents, but it was done. And look what happened. A bunch of people went down. You know, that UK official, I don't remember his name, but he fell. the the UK's had actually a lot more accountability on Epstein than we have over here in America. But look, look what happened with Bill Gates. He got humiliated.

1:57:28Dave Aronberg:Some others got exposed. Obama's former White House counsel got exposed like bit by bit. We did learn. No, there is a cabal of people who are very connected to him and seem like dirtbags who did deserve to be exposed. And with more and more pushing, they were. But we were all told that's a conspiracy theory, too, about Jeffrey Epstein. It's like, OK, this is like it's just annoying. And look, the thing on Israel, like that's that's underlying this whole thing. And I feel like I'm in a unique position to speak to this because it's like Charlie and I were completely aligned on Israel all along and up to the day he was killed, where we were very, very pro-Israel.

1:58:11Dave Aronberg:But we were starting to have doubts because of their behavior in Gaza and how extended and egregious it was and just how the overkill, again, to use that same word. And we hadn't abandoned Israel as supporters, but we were becoming more critical. And we both felt a need to make room in the GOP for Israel skeptics, which is what young Republicans feel. They're very skeptical. Not of Israel and the Israeli people, but of this government and its behavior. and Charlie was having doubts about Israel and was under pressure not to not to abandon Israel as a cause and is in writing and on the record with me on this show and elsewhere not appreciating appreciating being called an anti-Semite saying he might have to leave the Jewish cause entirely saying he wasn't going to submit to the pressure from certain Jewish donors to not waver at all in Israel and that he didn't appreciate that at all.

1:59:07Dave Aronberg:correspondence directly with Netanyahu. And so look, understandably, some people are going to say, did they have a motive here? I think that's a fair question. But now when we're getting into real live court, where as you three know better than anyone, we have to deal in evidence. This is not an okay time for who might have been on Charlie's bad side, who might have been threatened by Charlie, who might have been mad at Charlie. We have to talk about evidence at this stage. It is time to put up or shut up. And what we see is no evidence, no evidence that will lead us to believe anyone other right now than Tyler Robinson was responsible for this cause.

1:59:51Dave Aronberg:But I understand the skeptics. I do, because I, as Charlie's friend, want every leaf to be turned over. I've been fine with doing that all along. But, you know, this is where the rubber meets the road. Right, guys, where it's like in lots of cases you have theories about who hated the decedent, who besides my client wanted him dead. How could I potentially do a head fake or like point direction, you know, for the jury members over there instead of at my guy? And the court won't allow you to do that unless you have a good faith basis to do it or actual evidence to justify it. You can't just do wild goose chase over here because I've got a suspicion.

2:00:35Dave Aronberg:That's just not how it works. And in our discussions here, I think it's really important we stay fact-based. What's admissible? What can they admit? What is his defense team actually arguing? They have a greater reason than anyone, podcaster or otherwise, to get the attention off of Tyler Robinson. And we haven't heard anything from that defense team, which does seem talented about it not being Tyler. So anyway, thoughts on it. Megan, can I put I want to put my tinfoil hat on for a minute and I never have a tinfoil hat, but just for argument's sake, in terms of the evidence in this case and what will come forth, the one the chum for lack of a better word that i think conspiracy theorists can sink their teeth into that we know so far are the weird text messages why because they're too detailed for somebody who wants to commit a heinous crime and get away with it to be texting your your furry lover all of the details of the grandfather's gun and this and here's where i put it and look under your keyboard and do all that stuff.

2:01:40When you know damn well, as a 23 year old, you know damn well that this information is gettable. Why would you almost give yourself up digitally if somebody weren't putting you up to it? Now, I don't believe that is the case. But if I were a conspiracy theorist, I'm going to be hanging my hat on those text messages because there's just too much there there.

2:02:04Dave Aronberg:Also, so I have a dear friend who I love. She's she's a doll and she tends to think more conspiratorially on some of these issues. And she she keeps me abreast of what she's hearing and she thinks on this. And I actually really appreciate it because it's a good window into, you know, how people who are very skeptical of the theory that Tyler Robinson did this are thinking. and she just texted me that these messages are not believable and no one believes this is why he was taken out um it she goes on from there but those messages are a problem for people um who want to convince us it was tyler robinson because they do they sound fake they just sound they do they sound fake they sound fake and to john's point guys they do have it's like a prosecution's dream.

2:02:55Dave Aronberg:It's my rifle. This is where I hit it. Remember when I engraved the bullets with the following memes? Like it's it's exactly what you'd write if you wanted to ensure his conviction. Well, and then layer over that somebody else was there who gets carried off and arrested, who later confesses layer over that there are preexisting chats that are memorialized in some fashion, which look to be a conspiratorial. And I would not be so sure that in jury selection, that a stealth juror, this is usually the defense's worst nightmare. But in this case, it could be just like in Luigi, the prosecution's worst nightmare.

2:03:47They get a juror on that. Yes. Not going to buy anything that the prosecution is selling because it just looks too neat, too convenient and doesn't kind of answer all of the questions. I have a theory.

2:04:01Dave Aronberg:Let me tell you something. I have a theory. I know I know a few people who are, you know, like this one friend who's very well off. She's very successful, who I met years ago. she was QAnon. She was part of Q. Like she believed all the theories about like the pizza place and the Democrat, like all of it. And, um, like pretty much every conspiracy theory. And I never knew that Iglarsh until she had a dinner party at her house and we all went and she kind of started confiding in me. And I remember being shocked. I'm like, she, she believes every single one of them. I know a few people who are like this and they are brilliant.

2:04:39Dave Aronberg:they are very successful this is not like there is a very good chance a few of these will wind up wind up in the jury pool and being considered for the actual jury here um this is something the prosecution absolutely has to be paying attention to sure you listen we we think we know people we only know what they show us and and even then you really never get down to it my theory in this case is that these defense lawyers are doing their job, ensuring due process by challenging every piece of evidence, by making all the right objections. But Megan, you're thinking, and many people are thinking, well, so what does this lead to?

2:05:22What type of successful defense is that somehow leading to? And I don't think that they even think that it's going to lead to that. They're defining winning by doing everything they can to challenge the evidence and then ultimately not not possibly, but when this judge says I'm finding probable cause, which is 100 percent certainty, they will then proceed to buy their, you know, their their their protective knee coverings, get down on their knees and beg the prosecution to consider waiving the death penalty. And that, to me, would be a victory for the defense. Prosecution has no reason, though, to do that.

2:06:01I disagree. I disagree. Unless Erica Kirk and Charlie's parents wanted them to. It starts there. I haven't heard that they're tremendous advocates for the death penalty. So the fact that that door is even cracked open a little bit means that there's a possibility.

2:06:18Dave Aronberg:The door's not cracked open. Erica Kirk has said, I don't want that on my conscience. I don't want to be involved in that. OK, like I'm leaving that. That means it's open, Megan, in our business, unless if you have a victim saying no, anything less than the death penalty, like the Parkland, Marjory Stoneman Douglas parents, they wanted the death penalty for Nicholas Cruz. That was it. There was no discussion about resolving it to a life sentence, which ultimately probably would have saved them a lot of time and energy. In this particular case, there are more generic reasons. I don't disagree with Jonna and those who think that the evidence is overwhelming.

2:06:53They'll get the conviction, but you've got 12 jurors, all who must unanimously find that the aggravating circumstances are greater than the mitigators. And death is very different. It's very unique. It takes one Utah juror to say, yeah, I think that what he did was abhorrent, but I think he should live out his days in jail, be worse for him, let him rot in prison. I'm not going to send a death row or whatever their reasons are. And so it's not a slam dunk. It's not a guarantee. What is a guarantee is him saying, I'm guilty. I'm waiving all my appeals. I don't want to have any more notoriety. Not that he would say that, but we're saying that to him.

2:07:32Good riddance. Go away. No more expense. No more time. No more energy. Guaranteed life sentence. And then he'll probably be he's going to do it.

2:07:41Dave Aronberg:I don't think he's going to I don't think he's going to do that because his lawyer should talk. He thinks he's got a shot. I think he's got a shot. And I also if you read those text messages, if that's really Tyler Robinson writing, he doesn't give a shit about dying. He's like, if you read this, I'm either dead or I'm heading to prison for a long time. I think he was prepared to die that day. Go ahead, Garagos. I can see things change. The lawyers are not going to let him do it because absent agreement by DOJ. Remember, unlike Luigi, where you have the federal backstop to the state, there is no double jeopardy.

2:08:16If he pleads the DOJ to a life, the DOJ can come in instantly and just use that and go go for broke. And they would work that out, Garagos. They would all work that out. He wouldn't plead unless he knew that he's getting a pass in the fence. This Department of Justice agreed to the pass. I to me, that's they already.

2:08:37Dave Aronberg:They won't. Don Jr. is sitting in the front row of this preliminary hearing right now with his new bride watching every moment. He was extremely close with Charlie. There's zero chance. Imagine imagine a scenario worse than a five day preliminary hearing. Imagine five, 10 years down the road after he's convicted, after he's given the death penalty. The appellate court reverses based upon something that was done in jury selection, whatever it is. And then we come back and we do it all over again. That's possible. Who cares? No. OK. So what cares? Like remember the outrage when Kohlberger was allowed to plead and didn't get the death penalty, which he clearly deserved.

2:09:18Dave Aronberg:That was utter bullshit. We can't be put in that same position. Go ahead, Garagos. I'm just going to say, remember the reason that the feds did not get involved in they publicly said it. It's not like I'm talking directly to somebody who's confiding in me. They said Utah's got a death penalty, unlike New York, where similar to California, the death penalty basically does not exist. We came in in New York because of that. We didn't come in to Utah because they mean it when they say they've got a death penalty. That's the backstop. That's the only reason they didn't take federal jurisdiction over this.

2:09:55And Megan, a win for the defense here is simply not getting a unanimous death verdict. That is a win for the defense. I don't think they know they know they don't have a prayer of an acquittal. I don't see that happening at any point. But if they have one juror who can't sentence to death, that is a win. And that might be a long plea, as we like to call it. And maybe that's the angle of this defense team at this point.

2:10:23Dave Aronberg:If I were the defense lawyer, I'd be going for jury nullification. I'd be going for hung jury. All I need is one who thinks that Tyler Robinson was manipulated, whether it was by the CIA and an MK ultra, which I've seen that, uh, by Israel who, you know, somehow swooped in and got and controlled his mind, or he wasn't actually the shooter because there was the exploding microphone, whatever. There's a lot of theories out there that I'm the defense lawyer. I'm 100 % going for that. Like I've got to find the one jury and I'd have to have a consultation with jury consultants. Like what should I look for?

2:10:59Dave Aronberg:Like, and Megan, raise your hand. If you think we didn't land on the moon. And you know what? I'd be looking for jurors who are like, yeah. And Megan, you know why? You know why there's typically two different lawyers on a death penalty case? Because the one who would have to argue the garbage that you just talked about, the most ridiculous theories which will land him with a conviction within an hour, there'd have to be a different person than to get up there and make arguments about why he should live instead of die. Because the first lawyer would not - So can you explain this? So Garagos made this point yesterday and we didn't really flesh it out.

2:11:32Dave Aronberg:Keep keep going. Why? So describe exactly the position you'd be putting yourself in. So if you stood up there and your main defense was basically just like head fake over to MKUltra, the CIA, the FBI, Israel, whatever. OK, I had a death case recently. I litigated it for five years. Death, death, death. These Florida prosecutors wanted death. And quite frankly, the facts probably warranted them. It was really that bad. It wasn't until the 11th hour, ultimately, when we did motions and showed that like they're doing, they're talented lawyers, they're fighters, whatever, that maybe that greased the wheels and ultimately we got what we wanted.

2:12:08But I couldn't have been the one if we actually went to trial to then make the arguments about how he had a lack of prior record, how he had mental illness, how he said, God bless you to a few people and helped them across the street, whatever you're going to throw out there to mitigate. I shouldn't have been that same one because with the same mouth that that spewed bullshit to try to convince them that they're innocent. I can't be the one trying to save his life. Well, that far, I would say you're zealously defending in a guilt phase. And that's what the client is entitled to a zealous defense.

2:12:41And you're arguing they haven't proved their case. I'm giving you an alternative explanation. I'm telling you this. I'm telling you that. If a jury rejects that, which they must in order to get to the penalty phase, they basically, there's an idea. You are the voice of the client. They've given you your, they've already given you their verdict, so to speak, on your authenticity and everything else. Then to get up and say, hey, I was just kidding. Let's talk about this, that, and the other thing and why you should. It's an impossible human situation, I think, to navigate. Correct. But wait, why is it inconsistent to say, okay, Tyler Robinson didn't do it.

2:13:27Dave Aronberg:He didn't do it. Somebody else did it. Don't believe those tapes. We can't tell who that is. This is bullshit. There's no hard proof. Somebody could have stolen that gun. His DNA is on it because it's his gun, not necessarily because he shot it. And then they say, we disagree. He's guilty. And then you get to the death penalty phase and you say, why is it inconsistent to say Tyler Robinson is actually a really sweet guy? He spent, you know, 22 of his 23 years being a good citizen, loving son, university. He got he got manipulated, you know, by the Internet. He got, you know, pulled into assassination culture.

2:14:09Dave Aronberg:And, you know, don't hold that against him because, look, he was a Boy Scout and he did all these nice things. Because your credibility by that point is out the window. You've challenged good, decent, honorable police officers. You're trying to make X look like Y. You know, creating reasonable doubt could be really challenging, especially when things are so straightforward and you have to convince jurors that they're not. What you're seeing is not actually that straightforward. Someone manufactured the words that were allegedly sent to his boyfriend. And, you know, that and then all of a sudden to get up there with that same mouth and then talk about actual things that he doesn't have a prior record, that he had some mental illness.

2:14:49And here's the expert that claims that he that whatever you're going to put up there to mitigate. It's very hard to do it with the same voice that that that minutes ago they were insulted by, you know.

2:15:01Dave Aronberg:But Megan, the the inconsistency. I'm just kind of laughing, picturing you. I've never seen you uncomfortable. It would be kind of funny to see you actually feeling uncomfortable. I wouldn't show it just on the inside because of that. But you're making your case. I get it. I'm getting it. Go ahead, John. The inconsistency is baked into the cake, right? Because when you have these death penalty cases and I'm trying to remember, I don't know if it's Jody Arias or one of them and maybe even Scott Peterson, Garagos, where you put up a defense because you truly believe that your client is innocent.

2:15:31And then in order to save their life, They have to present the mitigating evidence or it's not going to happen. You have to you have to the client sometimes themselves have to say, oh, yeah, I'm really sorry. After you spent days or weeks or months trying to convince a jury that they're completely innocent in order to live, they have to now kind of admit their guilt. He's still trying to convince us that Scott Peterson is innocent.

2:15:57Dave Aronberg:We can't use that as an example. He still thinks he's going to be home in time for Christmas. Wait, I wanted to tell you guys something is happening in court right now that is relevant to the very discussion that we're having. There's a debate about whether they can read the testimony of—okay, I want to make sure. It's a pastor. The prosecution wanted to read the testimony of Pastor David Englehart about Christian belief. This is via The Federalist and its correspondent in court, Breckin Thees, from Englehart about Christian belief, the beliefs and goals of Turning Point USA, and the religious and political beliefs of Charlie Kirk.

2:16:44Dave Aronberg:The defense objected. This is another defense lawyer named Novak, who says the state is using this testimony in a way to get the, quote, victim targeting enhancement to lay the groundwork for Robinson's reasons for targeting Kirk specifically. Novak argues that political expression is outside the statutory relevance needed, which is separate and distinct from a personal attribute. Do you understand what he's saying? Does anybody know what that means? For the special, I assume for the special circ, and he's saying the special circumstance that's attached to the murder, which makes him death penalty eligible.

2:17:19And he's arguing that you can't use.

2:17:22Dave Aronberg:Like a personal attribute would be he's gay and he got targeted for being gay or he's black and he got targeted for being black as opposed to he was a Christian who was religious. I think that's OK. I get it. I think that's what the argument is over. And then here's the quote from defense attorney Novak. I understand in today's world that there is a crossover between religion and politics. I think we can all acknowledge that. But the legislature and the information here are focused on political expression. So I'm concerned that this affidavit statement of Mr. Englehart goes far beyond the scope of what would be admissible if the state has it to prove that Mr.

2:18:00Dave Aronberg:Robinson targeted Mr. Kirk because of Mr. Robinson's belief or perception concerning Mr. Kirk's political expression. This is not a case about religion, Novak said. Novak said the evidence the state needs to provide is not what Kirk believed, but rather what was in Mr. Robinson's head. So he did not want the affidavit to come in. And it looks like he has succeeded in that because the update was Judge Graff for now has sustained Novak's objection, meaning the state prosecutor cannot read directly from Englehart's testimony. Quoting from it in open court, I fear, does risk issues to the constitutional rights of the parties, said the judge.

2:18:46Dave Aronberg:They're talking about closing the court down so that Prosecutor McBride can refer directly to the testimony. The state does not want to do so. McBride says he believes the defense is trying to shut down the openness of the proceedings so that the public cannot hear it. News media attorney, because we also have our own lawyer in there arguing for our rights, Raymond is arguing that just because an exhibit could be inadmissible does not mean the public cannot see it. My God, there's so many layers to this. This is crazy. but this is all about the death penalty right this is all about whether this i admire this evidence that would make it a death penalty and i like this judge i like this judge putting aside whether i'm okay with the ruling because i don't have all the facts surrounding it i love that he's calling balls and strikes and not just appearing to be a judge who's ready to do that pretending to do that and then just ruling in favor of the prosecution for everything he really does seem to want to hear from both sides.

2:19:39And he does seem like he cares about the rule of law. And I admire him. Not everything should come in.

2:19:45Dave Aronberg:Well, I have to say, it's been it's it's been actually very telling because usually this Nestor objects to everything. The woman. That's her job. That's her job. And no, it's annoying, though. If she does this in front of a jury, they're going to hate her because juries don't like a nonstop. I realize she's got a life to save and delay works in her favor. The every day is another day he's alive. It's different. But I know. But like I'm I'm a jury and I hate her. I'm just saying like, she's alienating a lot of people. You ain't making it on babe. No, I'm definitely not making it on this one. But then he says, the judge says, okay, I'll hear argument.

2:20:23And she's like, I stand on my objection.

2:20:26Dave Aronberg:She has no argument. It's like, the prosecution's like, great, let's argue it. I'm happy to argue. She's doing her job. Megan, she's doing her job so that not if, but when he possibly gets death, they're going to go back and say did he have um effective assistance of counsel and yeah she's making all the possible legal objections and then this is all good her job be to like give him give him that defense by not doing not crossing every t or dotting every i like no surreptitiously blowing things so he could argue i basically what is it iac go ahead garagos yeah but no it's not it's not our job to purposely take a dive though right we just got to make sure she'll get lucky like like Like Alec Murdoch, and they'll have a court clerk who will unduly influence the jury.

2:21:10And that's a good strategy. Count on that. Yeah.

2:21:13Dave Aronberg:Go ahead, John. We you know, let's hope that the angle here isn't to get rid of the the thing that makes this an aggravated murder, because without that, there is no death penalty. And then the defense will have one at the end of this, what is going to be a lengthy prelim. So hopefully the prosecution has more than one ground for its aggravation in the way that it charged this case. It's yeah. Hey, were there kids in attendance? How old were they? OK, there you go. And that one. Yeah, well, that's I mean, you killed them across a crowd. That should be one. So there should be other choices for the prosecution here.

2:21:49Dave Aronberg:Yeah. Besides whatever Christian affiliation or one's political beliefs, which clearly is the motivation. If, you know, Tyler did this, that he's it's in writing. But yeah, they have on the witness list. I think a picture of a mother with a baby in a baby stroller. So they clearly are going to try to argue that, you know, children were present at the time that this disgusting event happened. So we won't be surprised if we see that. So, all right. In sum, we think the prosecution's getting it done. They could have gotten it done in two hours. Everything beyond that is probably an attempt to manipulate the public narrative, which I think is unacceptable.

2:22:30Dave Aronberg:I think it's unpoisoning the poisoned well just to try to get us back to neutral in the same way the prosecutor felt he had to come out to say, wait a minute, the Daily Mail report about the bullet not matching is not correct. It couldn't conclusively be matched, but it wasn't not matched either. We just couldn't tell. It was blown to such smithereens that we weren't able to say one way or another. I think he's trying to do that in his presentation here to unpoison the poisoned well, as opposed to poison it or put his finger on the scale for himself. So that's where it stands. Well, there was more to it over.

2:23:06Wait, wait, wait. Megan hates the defense lawyer. You didn't include that in the summation. We covered that. Yes. Megan thinks that she do.

2:23:13Dave Aronberg:She's very annoying. And if she objects like that in front of jury, she'll turn them all off. Got that right. And she says, um, every two seconds. She's not articulate. She's not. I mean, I'm just not impressed with her. I don't like unimpressive. All right. Just add that to the to the summation of what we've discussed. Yeah. And she blew it on that on that. What's the woman who poisoned her husband, the fentanyl poisoner? Oh, yeah. Corey Richens. She represented her. Corey Richens. Corey Richens. Yeah. She blew that one. That was probably. I don't know if that was winnable, but I think Garagos could have walked out with a with an acquittal.

2:23:46Dave Aronberg:There we go. But she she couldn't. For defense, she's doing a more than workmanlike job. Number one. There you go. It's also it's incredibly stressful for a lawyer to be on camera performing, even correct. But that adds another layer to it. So not for us. Megan, did I ever tell you one time I had a judge chastise me for objecting too much? She actually told me to stop objecting. I didn't listen. I don't blame her. Yeah. I must have annoyed her. too. Yeah. I don't blame her. It's like at that point, you just have to have like blanket blank. I get it. You object to literally every question. Your rights are preserved for appeal.

2:24:28Dave Aronberg:Sit down and be quiet and let the thing go forward. At one point, this judge is going to have to do that to Nestor because this cannot keep going like this. I realize, you know, delay is in her favor, but it's gotten to the point of like, you want to, you want to give her a little, a little backhand. Okay. I got to go. You guys, thank you all so much for your commentary. Everybody be sure to check out MK True Crime and subscribe to In the Well with Garagos and Matt Murphy and Positively Legal, as well as our MK True Crime show, which is sort of the name brand there. Anyway, lots of true crime offerings, and they've been all over this case this week and will continue to be as well.

2:25:06Dave Aronberg:I got to say, it's been kind of crazy to watch Erica have to sit through this and have to deal with all of this. And I really, really wish that the people who have doubts about Erica Kirk would just keep them quiet this week. I mean, whether you like her or you don't like her, hopefully the human inside of you can see how difficult this is for her and the family. to sit in there and have to listen to this and have to be feet away from Tyler Robinson and then soon the videotape of the lover and they're removing themselves for the most graphic pieces of the testimony, but they're hearing enough.

2:25:50Dave Aronberg:This is gonna be intensely upsetting. And every night Erica goes home to Charlie's two children who have no father and still has to struggle with helping them understand what happened to him. It's just beyond human, what is being asked of the family. And I beg for you to keep them in your prayers, infuse them with strength, with some sort of serenity to get through this, with the ability to keep this in perspective. You know, as Erica said from the beginning, that the real judgment is going to come from God, not from this judge, not from the eventual jury. and that's really what Tyler Robinson should be thinking about each night.

2:26:34Dave Aronberg:That's what should disturb his sleep night after night, answering to his maker. You know, his lawyer may be able to spare him some penalty here or possibly in his best case scenario, even a finding of guilt, though I doubt it. But Tyler Robinson and anybody else who is connected with this crime are going to have to answer to their maker eventually. And from that, they cannot be spared. None of us can. anyway i'm thinking a lot about charlie this week as i know you have it's very hard to talk about this case forensically without remembering it's charlie talking about charlie you guys know that better than anybody the listeners to this show the viewers of this show saw more of charlie than virtually any other audience did besides his own all these people out there talking about Charlie, you saw him regularly.

2:27:29Dave Aronberg:You listened to him regularly. If you watch and listen to this show and you knew a lot about Charlie Kirk, his character, his personality, what mattered to him. And I'm sure you're feeling it too. I'm sure you're feeling an intimate connection to this case because you do feel that connection to him. This is like, you know, the guests who come on this show are like family, they're family, like family to me. and I'm sure you feel that as well. So keep his family in your mind and in your prayers and thank you for that. Thank you for trusting us with the coverage of it as well. We will continue to stream the entire preliminary hearing on our YouTube channel.

2:28:06Dave Aronberg:That's youtube.com slash Megan Kelly and we'll be back tomorrow with more legal analysis and other news. We'll see you then. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

2:28:23Thank you.