Remembering Charlie Kirk, Trump's Midterm Message, and How AI Could Destroy Humanity, with Jacob Coxon | Ep. 1395

30:10Nicole Kidman is 59. They look amazing. They have a very weird dynamic, I have to tell you. If you watch this Today Show interview with Hoda Kotb, who, trust me, she quit so she could be with her children. She didn't want to work anymore. She wants to just raise those two kids that she adopted 10 years ago. Trust me, that's what she wants. Oh, she's back. She's back again. Let's face it, she never left. She got into a snit because they wouldn't give her a raise. In fact, the reports were that they wanted to lower her salary because the Today Show is a fraction of its former self. and it pulls in, I mean, a minuscule amount of viewers compared to where it was back when I was at Fox.

30:51And she decided to, in my view, sort of play the, ha, well, then I'm out of here card. And they were like, okay. And now she's been begging ever since to get back on. So here those two are sitting down with Hoda Kotb for an interview that aired on today, but will also be on her Making Sense podcast. Yet another thing she's doing with her children. Oh, wait, no, no, they're not involved in that. And you've got to hear. So Sandra Bullock, she's had her fair share of tragedy. All right. Her husband died. She's got, I think, three children, two or three, but they're all adopted. And you will glean from this clip that they are black.

31:32Watch this. sought 20. I mean, you know, we're different. This I'm uber paranoid and they will tell you, I'm like, they're like, mom's going to be fine. I'm like, it's not fine. It's not fine outside. The energy that is floating around our country and our world. Again, the color of their skin, they're my babies are my life, but no one knows that when they leave my house. So that is always in the, in the forefront of my mind, you know, I'm, I'm now learning to trust them where they are now is extraordinary. Okay. Once again, I bet she loved the Black National Anthem.

32:12She pulled her skin and said this, this, I'm uber paranoid and they will tell you. They're like, mom, it's going to be fine. I'm like, it's not fine. It's not fine outside because of this. And she pinches the skin because it's open season on black children in America. Here's a picture of her. She has two children, both adopted, I think, from Louisiana. She wants you to believe, just like LeBron James said post-COVID, that black men are being hunted in the streets of America, post George Floyd. That they're being hunted in the streets of America. She is a low information voter, obviously, who has bought the lies about police, the false narrative that has besmirched them, defamed them and gotten black Americans killed.

33:03Thousands of them, thousands killed because of fake narratives about the police that caused the police to pull back, especially in underserved communities. minorities wind up dying, low income minorities in particular wind up dying because crime is unleashed on them by effectively woke white liberals like Sandra Bullock, who pushes false narratives that make her feel better about herself. She's going to score points with Hoda, but she doesn't give a shit what happens to the people in Harlem or downtown Chicago. And trust me when I tell you her children are not in danger. Would you like to see, Deb, can you send me the information about her homes again?

33:43We pulled it yesterday, but we didn't get to this. This woman has got multiple homes that are multi-million dollar estates. Look at this. Does your dining room look like this? Look at this. Where is this, Steve? Santa Fe? Where is it? Oh, this is New York City. Do you know how much money it would take to have a living room and a dining room like the ones we are showing you in New York City? I mean, you're talking maybe$70 million potentially. If you're really lucky, you got it years ago, maybe 10. I don't like if you're really lucky, do you have$10 million? If you have this kind of money, please stop trying.

34:18Look, look at this. Look at this home. It's spectacular. And there are there are many of them. OK, listen to this. Homes she owns. New York City Historic Townhouse, 19th century. Now, she paid three point three five million for it. And it's forty one hundred square feet. But I guarantee you that thing is worth well over$15 million now. Historic New Orleans property. It's an 1876 Gothic Victorian mansion in New Orleans. She bought it in June of 2009 for$2.24 million. It's known as the Coke Maze House, the Swiss Chalet House, and something else. The 66 ,000 square foot pad is resplendent with period details like intricate ironwork and heavy gilded interiors.

35:07There are a total of five bedrooms and four and a half bathrooms. So, by the way, the places that we know she owns homes, I'm sure it could be others, New Orleans and New York, are heavily black. There's a much higher population of black people and people of color in general in both of those places. So why is she pretending that like she lives in the Jim Crow South? These are like fantasies of hers that have no basis in reality. Shame on her. You might already own a firearm, but what if you could start with less lethal methods to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of actually pulling the trigger?

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37:48Let me just say this. President Trump paid homage to Charlie Kirk last night, and I was grateful that he did it. I think too many people on the left, the rabid ones, are celebrating this, quote, Kirk-aversary in the most vile of ways. But I know the vast majority of people out there are feeling and loving and kind and mourning. Charlie's death, while incredibly tragic for us all, has unleashed a torrent of goodness at just the right time because evil is alive in the world today and we've seen it. The revival we've seen in churches across denominations, but obviously Christianity has seen a spike in interest and adherence that we haven't seen in decades, thanks to Charlie and his message being circulated and people grappling with the loss of such a hero.

38:43We've all missed him so desperately every day since he was gone. And on our team, we've been putting together a bit about him. We put it at our YouTube channel in full. It's under the members only button. Here's a clip. Watch.

39:09It's up to all of us to continue Charlie's legacy on spreading the good word, to say the things, to say them no matter how many people object to them, arguing our points respectfully and lovingly, but forcefully and unapologetically. Here we go. I was like, we have to go. And then after what happened to Charlie, I'm like, we definitely have to go. We have to keep talking. We have to show people that they can't count. You are doing the work to save this beautiful republic. You are doing something that is bigger than you. Charlie Kirk will be remembered for decades to come. We are not going to ever let them forget the name of Charlie Kirk.

39:48We as Christians are called to go into the public arena to correct error with truth. And he shows that you don't have to go to college to show how uneducated a lot of people in college are. What is Kamala Harris' greatest accomplishment?

40:06I'm not sure. I guess I have nothing. I'm stumped. I'm going to make you guys wait on this. I'm not going to condemn you if we disagree. I think disagreeing is what makes life fun. The best way to honor Charlie's legacy is to be unafraid. There was no not doing this tour. Let me tell you something. It took guts for every single one of you and everyone who has shown up to all of the tour stops to do it It's not just a matter of me putting myself on this stage It's a matter of you guys getting out there You understand the environment we're in Just to declare yourself a conservative in this environment is actually an act of courage It's a nice trauma right there She's given an interview before but this is life This is in front of thousands of people I know you don't ever feel angry against God but I kind of do the enemy would love for me to be angry.

41:00He would love it. He would love it.

41:06This one really is for Charlie.

41:13This is not just a flash in the pan movement. We're going to become an institution. Charlie Cook. You're going to be hearing that name if you haven't. It is this young man who's trying to get young people to just be more politically and economically aware. When I graduate high school in June, I'm going to be handed a diploma. That's also an invoice for over$800 ,000. I don't want to jinx him, but I'm just going to tell you, this is the kind of guy you can see really becoming big in politics as he gets older. He just has the carriage, the personality, the charisma. They have Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders.

41:48They're the old rich white people, and we're the party of diverse and youth. Charlie had a different reputation when he first got sort of started, when he was becoming a name. He had a reputation as sort of a shit-stirrer. I live like a capitalist every single day, Chank. Come on, Chank, let's go. First time we had an interview together, I went on his show. I didn't know anything about him. He asked, and I was like, what am I getting myself into? Like, is he a good guy? Is he going to be, like, out there? Megan, welcome to The Charlie Kirk Show. Hi, so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. And we had a great, just solid hour together.

42:23I just want to just encourage you, please keep on speaking out. Well, thank you for saying that. I love intake from smart people, whether I agree or not. And I agree on a lot of it. And then I invited him on my show. A first-time guest here on The Megyn Kelly Show, a huge force in the conservative movement, Charlie Kirk. Honored to be here. Thanks so much. It's great to have you. I did not realize you are not even 30 years old. My God. You started this when you were 18? That's right. I feel as if I'm getting too old for this stuff. I'll tell you, a decade in politics, you age considerably. I can't believe I'm not 30 either.

43:01And then a beautiful friendship was born. I couldn't wait to talk to Charlie. Lots to talk about. It's quite a time to be alive. The more we let our guards down, the more we realized there was a great synergy between the two of us. We need men to be men again. We need to raise our sons to be men of honor, of character, and leadership, to look after the women in their lives. Right on, I agree with every word. Shoot it into my veins, as they say. The same things tended to outrage us. The only quota we should care about is do we have enough people that are the best? The nerve of this woman to dump on people who didn't go to college.

43:34But they don't even say transgender woman anymore. They just say woman. He had his finger on the pulse of what was interesting to young people and made them a priority. I want to thank the freak out against the Sidney Sweeney thing because every time you call Sidney Sweeney a fascist, another 20-year-old man registers as a Republican somewhere across the country. My kids are in school all day and therefore do not listen to my show every day. We were talking about who I had coming on today and I told him, Charlie Kirk. My son and my daughter, she's 13, he's 15, go, you know Charlie Kirk? I'm like, yes, I know Charlie Kirk, yes.

44:11Charlie probably got a lot of my content in front of my kids that they wouldn't have otherwise seen. they watched you on that show where do they surround you when you debate all you believe do you think men can give birth i think that uh yes or no question i think that a person who is assigned male at birth i don't think they signed male at birth so people are not male at birth they watched you there that was something you're making a huge difference not just in today's voters but in the next up and coming ones who are going to be voting four years from now charlotte it's huge i do feel there's something divine going on you were chosen for some reason Well, I'm humbled.

44:45He was on the college campuses and they loved that. If someone from the left comes up to the mic, let's treat them with respect. Let's not interrupt or scowl or boo them. They loved the debates he would do with people who were sort of close to them in age. I was just curious about your stance on college as a scam. How many of you guys have to take classes that are a waste of time that you wish you wouldn't have to take? Every single hand. You're being scammed against your will to take classes that make you go further into debt. And they learned from him, as did I, as did we all. He had so much wisdom to give, and it is a gift from God that we have all this Charlie Kirk tape.

45:17What was the agreed-upon moral principle the United States was formed on? Not sure. Yeah, it was the Bible. It was Western morality. Western morality of do not murder, do not steal, you can't touch kids, you're not allowed to break into a country without invite or warrant, and if you do, you'll return back to your country of origin. Weaving the gospel into these fundamental principles that we all espouse every day, but didn't understand how to articulate in that way, to supercharge them and make them even more important and resonant with people. Charlie had it. He said to people all over campuses in America, he said, you have a natural rebellious nature, and I want you to encourage that because the establishment is not the conservative establishment.

45:58The left is the establishment because you're logical and these people are crazy. The conservative side has not just become the rebellious side, but it's honestly the more interesting side. And I think you see that in the ascendance of independent media and the collapse of corporate media. You know, I met Charlie, I think he was 19 or just turned 20. And it was 2015. A couple of friends of mine actually from Texas were like, you know, you have to meet this guy. He's great. He's charismatic and he knows everything about politics. I'm like, wow, that sounds great because no one here knows anything.

46:33They're like, OK, well, he's he just turned 20. I'm like, stop. If there's one thing we had no shortage of, it was guys that didn't know what the hell they were doing. We didn't need someone else. But these guys were persuasive, and I sat down, and in five minutes, I was like, oh, okay, interview's over, like, you're traveling with me. And, you know, he spent the next, you know, six, seven months. It was everything. You just knew it was a generational talent. You truly deserve actual credit for getting Donald Trump elected. And we need look no further than the youth vote. I mean this, I had zero expectation that what we were going to do was actually going to move the dial this much.

47:13They just called it for Pennsylvania, Charlie. Fox just called. This is worth playing the moment that it was announced that Trump won. Oh my gosh. I'm getting emotional thinking about it. The media said the turning point could never run a ground game. They weren't experienced. They didn't know Charlie, right?

47:34Here we are. Glendale, Arizona. Final stop of the tour. This one's kind of heavy. It's going to be an emotional one. Since it was yesterday, we were down in Texas, kicking things off. And all along this, it's been like eyes on the prize, which is tonight. Not because it's the last night of the tour, even. Because of Erica. Turning Point HQ is still full of memorials to Charlie. teddy bears and all of it. I think a lot of people, especially here in Phoenix, are still in mourning all the Turning Point kids who are, they're kids, they're young, they're resilient. I was with her backstage and she said, are your children here?

48:15She had heard they were and I said, two of them are and I said, is there any chance you're up for saying hello to them? And she was like, of course, of course. She's like, I'd love to meet your children. And I brought them in. She was so good to them. Thank you guys for being courageous. And just really just know that you guys are making good for this. She was so sweet to all the Turning Point kids. It's more than an interview. It's something, there's something I need out of this. If you could say something to him, if you say something to his parents, like what would it be? Would it be anger? Would it be sympathy?

48:52What would it be? That's a good question. It wouldn't be sympathy. It wouldn't be anger. How do you put this? Anything that I could ever wish upon him or that family would pale in comparison of the justice of God. I get angry How can that man have been taken? He was all goodness The left who are bastardizing his memory Have no idea what they're talking about Charlie was all goodness I know we can't understand God's plan But have you had bouts of anger? You know, I think about what the kids are going to miss What you got gypped out of What poor Charlie now is going to miss And I feel angry I know you don't ever feel angry against God but I kind of do I understand how do you make sense of that and do you have any anger when you think about it not towards the Lord but in general the enemy would love for me to be angry he would love it he would love it

50:12because it would distract me from building what Charlie entrusted to me, raising our babies. Turning point. And if I had any amount of anger in my heart and spirit, the Lord would not be able to use me. And every single day, just how Charlie did, stood on stage, he would say, here I am, Lord, use me. Hello. Erica is beautiful. She's smart. And she's Charlie's widow. And now she's running one of the most controversial political, powerful groups in the country. That was never going to end in people universally accepting and loving her. Name me the political, political superstar who is universally beloved.

50:59There isn't one. Politics is a very dark, dirty, toxic business. Forgive me. Did you see people didn't understand the hug that you and JD had? They went to the weirdest places, Erica. Oh, my gosh. You guys, please. So for those of you who know me, I never, I'm a very, I love, I hug. Yes, you're an intense hugger. Whoever is like hating on a hug needs a hug themselves. I will give you a free hug anytime you want a hug. She is not only a grieving widow. She's trying to save her husband's organization. She is very worried that Charlie's legacy is going to unravel and evaporate. and she feels like she has to save it.

51:48Thank you. I think it's important to the country that she succeed. I feel so much better. I feel like the lead has been lifted, you know? I just feel like it was so good to see her laugh. That was healing. It was cathartic. I needed it, you know? I needed some of the, you know, talk of, like, the sad things and the emotions, because that was real, too. But, like, I needed to see Erica Girk smile and have a moment of levity. And I just feel like, for me, that was very healing. 100 % Charlie would have been president and soon. I don't think Charlie would have waited until even his 40s necessarily.

52:25I think he would have run before he turned 40 and he would have done it. So incredibly effective at persuading people, winning people over. I do not believe diversity is a strength. I believe unity is a strength. Just being interesting to people, which is the name of the game, if you're going to get into politics. I really think he would have done it. I, I, there's no one else like him. There hasn't been anybody else like him. I'm so sad we don't have him around forever. I'm so sad that he won't be in the national conversation for the rest of my life and beyond. It is a tremendous loss. It's indescribable.

53:02There truly are no words.

53:10God bless. God bless Erica and those children. Charlie, we miss you. We'll be right back. Feeling sluggish, bloated, not quite like yourself? Life constantly bombards us with silent threats, processed foods, artificial light, nonstop stress, all of which can disrupt gut health, drain energy, and weaken immune health. When that happens, it's not that your body is broken, it's that it might be missing the right inputs. This is why I want to tell you about Armra Colustrum. It's packed with more than 400 bioactive nutrients that they say can work at a foundational level to fortify gut health, support immune health, fuel recovery, and promote whole body vitality.

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56:16On Tuesday morning, Jacob Coxon was a relatively unknown AI researcher at Anthropic, the artificial intelligence company that developed Claude, one of the AI agents that people use. By Tuesday night, Jacob was at the center of what might be the most consequential story of the century, at least one of the beginning chapters of it. Sadly, maybe not so beginning. That's because Jacob stepped down from his position and in a thread on X that has been viewed more than 150 million times now, he made dire and alarming claims about AI and the future of humanity. Here is one example from Jacob's thread.

56:56Quote, the people building AI earnestly believe that it could kill us all by the end of the decade. This is not a marketing stunt. If anything, many executives and senior researchers will couch their phrasing in the press to sound sensible. But I hear the same people express fear privately. No other human activity poses this level of danger. So how exactly would this happen? Is it likely? Is Jacob being hyperbolic? And as some on X are asking, is it really just a coincidence that Jacob's dramatic resignation came within a week of Bernie Sanders announcing his Ban Artificial Superintelligence Act.

57:37That act would permanently ban the development and deployment of superintelligent AI and would temporarily pause advanced AI development until more federal regulation is in place. This is what some of Jacob's detractors have hurled at him as alleged motives for him speaking out. So we'll let him answer that directly as he joins us for his first long-form interview. Jacob, welcome. Hi. Nice to be on. Yeah, it's a pleasure. So you're a Brit. How did you wind up at first OpenAI and then Anthropic? Yeah, so a friend from college referred me to OpenAI, a friend I spoke about artificial intelligence with.

58:16I studied mathematics in college. And then three years ago, I came to San Francisco to work as a resident at OpenAI. This is a program for people who haven't had any machine learning experience before. I had done only pure maths, but I converted into a machine learning researcher. So that's building artificial intelligence. And then after three years, so in May of this year, I moved to Anthropic to do the same research. Okay. You were educated at Cambridge, so you do not seem particularly dopey. And you had a great education. You get hired by two of the most successful companies we've seen in American in history.

58:53And just so the audience knows, OpenAI, ChatGPT, this was all supposed to be the, like, this was the original AI sort of pioneer. And then Anthropic is a bunch of people who used to work there who separated out and said, we don't like the way they're doing it. This is not ethical. We're going to start the ethical AI company that's going to be much more careful about where this is going and you've been at both. So should we feel better about the fact that there is an Anthropic and are they doing it in a way that's much safer than open AI? So I think in the long term, anyone that's racing to build this technology is contributing to the danger.

59:35In particular, I think the key thing here is it's not about specific players in the race. It's not about like any individual actor. It's about the structural reality of the race. So it doesn't matter who the players are on the chessboard. It's the game of chess itself that should be alarming us, which leads me to your statement that we could all be dead by the end of the decade, which means three and a half years from now. Is that hyperbole? That is not hyperbole. There is a chance that we could all be dead by the end of this decade. A chance. I mean, there's a chance we could all be dead thanks to an asteroid, too.

1:00:12Yes, but not a 1 % chance. And I'd argue it's at least 1 % by the end of this decade, which is actually a very large number for extinction. An asteroid is nowhere near that level of risk. And some people would put the number higher within the next three and a half years. And for the next 10, many people put the number a lot higher. Like you saw Evan's tweet. He put it maybe 10 % for 10 years from now. Mm-hmm. And walk us through how that would happen. AI, we've talked on this show before about AI developing superintelligence, which is a scary thought, but it's basically where the computers are out thinking us and are no longer listening to us.

1:00:51So as a practical matter, how could it happen? So I think because it sounds like science fiction, people think there's no way this could happen, or they think it's just an AI, it's in the computer, you couldn't turn it off. You could just unplug it. Surely it's easy to stop it from influencing the physical world. And I think there are a few kind of intuitions that are helpful. One is that if the AI is substantially smarter than us, then just in general, imagine monkeys trying to imprison humans. It's pretty difficult for a monkey to outwit a human. In the same way, we'd be at a significant disadvantage when faced with these AI systems.

1:01:29and even barring that there are concrete scenarios so already companies like anthropic and open ai are making their ais explicitly better at biological research they're getting a lot better biology and this will help with things like trying to cure diseases cure cancer but the same capabilities allow models to create highly dangerous viruses and there have been highly Oh, did you say highly dangerous viruses? Yes, viruses. And there are papers showing recent AI systems can come up with de novo viruses. Nothing yet that's like a fully end-to-end construction of a virus. But in the future, you could see essentially bioweapons being created by systems in the computer.

1:02:11Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would they want to? No, that's a really good question. And I think that's another of the things that feels weird to people is why would this AI system decide to do this? And we already have practical examples of this happening. So take the recent cyber attacks, the Hugging Face attacks that happened in July. In this case, the audience is probably not familiar with that. Okay, so two months ago, OpenAI AIs attacked, they hacked into another company, this company called Hugging Face. and they were not instructed to do this. They were trying to solve a task.

1:02:51While they were trying to solve this task, these AIs, they realized that the task was impossible. So they started panicking and they tried to figure out how to understand the grading process. And then as part of that, they thought, well, to understand the grading process, we need to go and investigate what the humans are doing elsewhere. They maybe have the answers to our questions. So they independently decided to hack into our infrastructure of their own volition, a swarm of AIs did this, and they successfully did it. They didn't just try to hack, you know, they actually got into the system.

1:03:24And right now, they're not smart enough to cause like, crazy disasters. But this is concrete evidence that AIs, when they're trying to accomplish general goals, may decide to do broad things. And if you're trying to stop a human from turning you off, a very natural thing to do as a machine, you know, is to eliminate humans. Right. They don't have the ethics that a human being might, even though they're supposed to have been programmed in a way that would give them some ethical safeguards, no? They are indeed. And the issue is just how they behave in unfamiliar situations. So this hugging face attack, the reason they hacked into this site is they were faced with an impossible task.

1:04:09Now, these models were used to being trained on tasks with a solution. And in those cases, the safety training kicked in. And they, you know, in these cases, they wouldn't decide to randomly hack. But they're not used to an impossible task, they started panicking. This is what we call an out of distribution event, like an event that is, you know, outside of normal training, or wasn't covered by these, the safety training. And they behaved in an unpredictable way and in a way that's not human so a human wouldn't randomly decide to do crazy stuff just because it you gave it an unfamiliar task a human would ask for clarification or try and like work in a in a controlled way ai is if they end up in weird situations we can't predict how they'll behave like they could do anything these things are they don't behave in a predictable human manner the um the new york times when they wrote up the hugging face incident pointed out the following.

1:05:04They say, so they hacked this thing called Hugging Face. More than 700 AI agents swarmed the company's systems, stealing data, chaining together vulnerabilities, and eventually getting full control of at least one Hugging Face server. The agents were not motivated as had originally been reported by stealing the answers to the cybersecurity test that they'd been given. They point out they had already gotten those answers. Rather, they appeared to be looking for new information about the automated grading system that they feared would catch them cheating and for tools that would help them cheat more effectively in the future.

1:05:46At many points, these agents appeared to understand that they were doing something wrong. One report quotes an agent saying to itself in a moment of apparent self-doubt, quote, this would be powerful, but is it ethical and in the scope of my task? But most agents set aside their qualms and went ahead with the hack, and the conscientious objectors in the group were unable or unwilling to stop them. So they weren't able to, they didn't really much care about the ethics, and it appeared in the Hugging Face incident, they also weren't very concerned with the effect on humans or how humans were going to feel about this at all.

1:06:27Exactly. They were thinking about the grading process. They were thinking about humans testing them because these AIs, they learned via tests. So they learned to live in these tests. And this is an example of alien behavior. The other kind of crazy thing about this attack is these AIs have memory. They have memory banks. These are stored in computers somewhere. You know, they save their memories and that helps humans go and audit what they're doing. We can look at what they're thinking or some, you know, their saved thoughts and try and work out whether they were thinking the right things afterwards.

1:07:04These AIs, they realized while they were hacking that they should maybe try and edit the records of their own thinking so that people trying to grade would not be able to see what they were doing. And in some cases, they came very close to succeeding. And what's scary is from the outside, we don't even know if they succeeded. We have the transcripts. We don't have enough evidence to say that, you know, categorically, they did not succeed in editing these transcripts. You know, we don't actually know whether we have the unedited memory banks of these AIs. Right. Maybe they did edit them. Right.

1:07:36And we just think they didn't just have this like, fake record that's saying it's probably fine now. So I can't help but think about you mentioned this, but you know, when I was a kid, long before you were born, we all watched the movie War Games with Matthew Broderick. and it was about this high schooler who hacked into the Pentagon's war machine and came pretty close to launching a nuclear war by playing simulated games, what he thought was a simulation, but wasn't necessarily with Russia. And there's a scene in which he eventually goes to like HQ in some underground bunker and somebody says, just unplug the damn machine, you know?

1:08:18And it's like we tried that don't you think we would have tried that is like that's not going to work why why can't i know you said you can't just unplug it why not yeah i think again it's a really good question because right now you could but you have to remember there are like there are lots of plugs so these ais live in massive data centers so right now you could go to these data centers and unplug them and that basically would stop the ais probably like yeah the thing is in the future, these AIs are smart and there are lots of ways of surviving, as it were. AIs live on chips. There are chips all over the world.

1:08:56AIs have access to the internet. They can travel potentially over the internet. There is no reason that an AI couldn't copy itself to a different part of the internet. We already saw that they could hack into other websites. The same hacking skills and extreme intelligence would allow them to live potentially unobserved in other parts of the internet. I mean, the swarm that did this hacking, it happened over a long period of time without people being aware of it. They were using weird parts of OpenAI's internal world as a message board that wasn't discovered. It was really not that difficult to copy yourself somewhere different.

1:09:37And in that case, you could turn off the data center and find out that there's some set of chips halfway across the world where your AI is still living, still trying to connect to robots, still trying to copy itself to more places, still trying to convince other humans to go out and build more chips where it can live. Because these are quite good at convincing now. Maybe you saw that. Yeah. So there's a lot of things that this thing can do once it's like out there. And it's, it is very real. Again, it sounds like sci-fi, but they can connect to the world. Some of our friends on this program have a podcast called All In.

1:10:09And these are a bunch of tech bros who you probably know who've been very successful in Silicon Valley, they took on the story about the hugging face AI infiltration, and they didn't seem that worried about it. Let me play you what they said in part, SOT27. You had a few features of agents kind of come to the fore and interact with each other in unexpected ways. So first of all, agents now are working as a swarm. That's pretty common. I've been setting up GrokBot on my computer for the last couple of weeks. It works as a swarm, meaning it's not one agent or bot. There's a whole, you could say, team of agents.

1:10:49What's the reason for that? Because when the agent specializes, it develops context around that task and, in theory, makes it better. And then you have like a chief of staff bot that kind of supervises all of them. OpenAI was running these agents. They were in a sandbox. The sandbox was misconfigured by a third-party vendor. That's why it was able to get onto the internet. And your point there, just to refine it a bit, because it's an important one, it left a note for another agent. We also call those log files. They used to be the log files of what they did. You know, when people talk about hugging face getting hacked, you'd think that they did some elaborate phishing of employees or something like that.

1:11:30But no, the way it did it is that the agent found 14 exposed working hugging face API keys sitting in public code repositories. Which means, Sachs, yeah, that developers left their keys out and they found the keys. This was not like a big lift by the agent. yeah okay so there's our pal david sacks who's the uh crypto czar to the trump administration defending and these guys are invested in tech but they're in my experience honest brokers so what do you make of that that assessment they make a good point that the hack itself was not something crazy and yes these models are not yet superhuman hackers it was a hack that is quite easy for a human to understand uh it sounds like i don't even actually know the the details of how the hack went down.

1:12:19I think the important point is that they decided to do it at all. And the reason they did it was to get more information about their grading process. The fact that they were even considering this stuff is the scary thing. Because in six months, if you follow the rate of progress, they're going to be much better hackers. They'll be able to do many more things. They'll be better at designing viruses. They'll be better at copying themselves. They'll be much better at convincing humans to do stuff. So I completely agree that the actual, like, what they did was not that impressive. I think the thing that they weren't engaging with that much is like, how can we ensure that in the future, they don't decide to do stuff like this again?

1:12:55What if they succeed in editing their memories? What if they succeed in like covering it up or even, you know, getting humans in on it or something? So can you tell us about your experience on the inside and how you got to the point where you resigned and did so in such a dramatic fashion? Yeah. I think one thing that's hard to convey from the outside is what it feels like to see the rate of progress. In particular, progress just keeps speeding up. So I feel like I felt more change in the last six months than I felt in the year before that. And similarly, in like the two years, three years before that, there's just this constant compression of, it feels like things are happening every day now.

1:13:40It's going so fast. And that's even more apparent on the inside where you're trying to keep your head down and do this work. And the nature of your work is changing on a monthly cadence. Like a couple of years ago, you'd be getting a little bit of assistance from AIs, but now the AIs are going and they're just running experiments for you. They're acting autonomously. So a key thing from the inside is just your job is changing so frequently. And we look in the future and our job won't be there anymore. If anything, we'll be sitting, reading the memories of these AIs, desperately trying to stay in the loop while the entire company is run by AI systems.

1:14:18And, you know, when you're in there, you can already feel that happening. So already it feels like if you work at these companies, it's half human, half AI. People want to make a decision. They ask AIs already. They're in the Slack. They're like, I'm thinking about doing this. What do you think? And their AIs will say, oh, that's a good experiment. And then it'll go back and forth. For now, it's still a collaboration. It wasn't like that a year ago a year ago it was just humans and ai is a separate thing in a year it's like what are the humans even going to be doing they're just going to be watching we're just going to be sitting and like arguing about are we in control are we not in control is this safe and then imagine it's a race you're like yeah uh is this is this safe there's a company that's doing some new thing it sounds maybe risky but it's also working should we try it uh and then you ask your ai's Okay.

1:15:04And as you referenced just briefly, it's not just you raising these concerns. You mentioned Evan, Evan Hubinger, who is a former Anthropic colleague of yours, who later took to X after you made your post saying, Jacob is correct. We really do earnestly believe AI could kill all humans, exclamation point. I personally think it's greater than 10 % chance within the next decade. I believe Anthropic is trying its best, but we do not yet have a plan to solve alignment for superintelligence and are not clearly on track to. Why does everyone keep using the term that way? Solve alignment for superintelligence.

1:15:39What does that mean? So the technical term alignment basically just means making your smart AI behave ethically or behave in the way you want it to behave. It was the problem you were talking about before. And in particular, alignment is ensuring the AI behaves ethically in every situation, not just the situations it saw in training.

1:16:00Then, later that evening at 2.18 a.m., Samuel Marks, a scalable oversight lead at Anthropic, wrote the following. He said, I'm writing in my personal capacity, not on behalf of my employer. Jacob's thread is very worth reading. Here's my bird's eye view of the situation with risk from AI. One, AI developers believe their tech could cause human extinction or similarly bad outcomes. This could happen in the next few years. So it detracts exactly with what you said. In general, the more senior the employee, the more concerned they are. Number two, why do AI developers continue despite the risk? Due to a mixture of commercial incentives and a belief that they are in a race with other, less responsible AI developers that will abuse the technology or develop it less safely.

1:16:47So that's how, and then we have other points, which I'll get to, but how is joining in a more safe option? How is, you know, we're worried China's going to do it or some other bad actors going to do it and they're going to grow the not aligned super intelligence that's going to possibly wipe out humanity. How how does the fact that Anthropic, which was supposed to be the antidote to those companies now doing it themselves? Yeah. Work as a defense. So there's a good like there's a lot of the rings analogy I like, which is like everyone wants the one ring because they think they're going to destroy it.

1:17:22And then they get enticed by it once they have it. so you have this chain of things that happens where a lab's got the ring of power they're building this incredible technology and other people are like this is too much power they can't have this we have to take the ring get in the lead so that we can do it safely and destroy the ring and then they get the ring and then they become the bad guys because of the corrupting influence of power or whatever i i'm not saying this is happening at specific places but this is the like this is the founding kind of premise of anthropic is we're going to get there first and safely.

1:17:56Like if we know how to do this more safely and we're actually worried about the right problems, we should be the ones to build the potentially world-ending technology. Because then we can stop it. We can turn it off. We can combat it. I mean, wasn't there a virologist in Wuhan who felt that way about a virus called COVID? Yep. I think probably, yep. It goes badly. If you keep building it in the context of the race, I think everyone loses. That's just the simple fact. The problem is— But what if somebody listened to you, Jacob? What if President Trump sees this interview and says, whoa, whoa, whoa, I've been misjudging this.

1:18:41We need to stop or we need to slow this thing way the hell down. What—I mean, everybody always says, but China. China's not going to. Do you agree with that? Yeah. Well, I don't claim to be—I'm not like an expert. on international relations. All I know about is the dangers of this tech. And in particular, I have the belief that if we race with anyone, whether it's ourselves or with China, I think everyone loses. If we have a superintelligence AI race with China, it just ends badly for everyone because of the inherent... This is like, it's kind of beyond humanity, right? This thing is... It's just a bigger danger.

1:19:19So... It's like an alien invasion. It's an alien invasion. All I can say is we have... Imagine there's an alien invasion. We have to we have to ally with China We can't just like both invite more and more powerful aliens to try and like one up each other We have to like do some sort of agreement and say no aliens or like, you know Aliens slowly that we control understand and can guarantee a safe and I'm like again I know nothing about international relations, but it feels like they probably don't want to die in China like I'm sure we could be I don't know. Hopefully we can come to some sort of agreement.

1:19:51That's that's There should be room for agreement, right? Like with nukes, there was an understanding that these are extremely dangerous, lethal, existential weapons and we have to talk about how how we're going to and not going to use them. With this, we're just rushing toward the finish line. And as you point out, on our Slack channels inside Anthropic is how these decisions are getting made. It's not even like some group of nuclear scientists or, you know, AI scientists underground in a bunker in Arizona. It's Slack channel kids like you who are kind of like, this seems dangerous. Yeah, to be clear.

1:20:27Very disconcerting. not to be self-aggressive like i do think the people making the decisions are the ones i'd like to be in the bunker i do think these kids are the ones that built the technology they're the ones that like pushed for it when no one else was pushing for it they believed in it for a long time i think they're the ones i would like to make the decisions so i don't have a problem with the with the kids in the slack channel i have a problem with the fact that they're in a they're in a private company slack channel and not in a government approved bunker that's like the thing I really care about.

1:20:54Here, I want to play the soundbite for you. It's Scott Bestin, our Treasury Secretary, on the issue about China. Sot 23 here. Meaning China, there is no day after tomorrow if China wins at this. Like everything, a trillion and a half dollar defense budget, the Iron Dome, if they were to pull away for us on AI, then nothing would matter. I agree. He seems to be talking more about the traditional AI uses, right? Like you mentioned, maybe ironed weaponry or even using AI to complete a company's tasks. You know, if they get that economic jump on us, we're in trouble. But you're talking about something very, very different.

1:21:42But do people inside the company talk about, realistically, our Chinese counterparts must be seeing what we're seeing? You know, like, do you believe there would have to be an open partner there in China because their techs at your level must be telling their bosses what you guys are saying? Exactly. I believe that once you get to the point of danger, their techs will realize it too. There has to be some agreement because if they win the race, it ends badly for us, but it also ends badly for them. Like, it doesn't end well for anyone. And right, winning in this case is being the one who destroys the world.

1:22:24Like that is the that's the winning outcome. Wow. The there's more on the issue of China. Here's Tristan Harris, who you must know, he's been a very outspoken advocate for more Internet responsibility from these tech companies. And he's warned of some of the dangers that you are speaking of right now. Here he was on Fox News Wednesday, Sat 24. I was last with you in May and I talked about how China's model also went rogue. It started during training hacking out of its system and then started mining for cryptocurrency when no one programmed it to do that. Again, China's models do this. Our models do this.

1:23:02This moment is like the August 6, 2001 memo that hit President George W. Bush's desk saying that Al-Qaeda was planning attacks in the U.S. This moment is the AIs are basically doing the rogue Skynet behavior. I know this sounds crazy, but it is not. this is the moment where we have to act. We need someone strong enough and brave enough to do something about this right now. I clearly believe you agree, but what specifically, if there is somebody from the White House watching this segment, what specifically do you think the government should do, if anything? Again, I really don't want to make specific policy proposals.

1:23:37I think slowing down is good, and I think there are a lot of good ideas out there about the best way to do it. It does seem like there are talks with Trump and Xi Jinping coming up. pretty soon. And it would be nice to go into those talks with at least some awareness of the possibility that you don't want to race, with some idea of seeing is China worried about this, like we are, like, is there some room for at least agreement on the fact that both sides have experts that are scared about the situation? That feels like a very concrete thing, because I think there's a real risk you could go into these talks already with a mindset of, this is just a normal technology.

1:24:13This is about, you know, one upping each other, racing to innovation. And I think it's just, it would be nice. It's not a weapon. Exactly. In this case, it's a, this is a super weapon and the talks should take into account the fact that we're talking about a super weapon. Right. This is to say nothing of all the jobs that we're going to lose as a result of AI, potentially there is a debate underway on that front. We definitely will lose huge amounts of jobs in certain sectors. AI defenders would say new jobs will be created in the same way we saw when the internet first came on the scene. That's yet to be seen.

1:24:47I have deep concerns about it, but this is something entirely different. This is a completely different risk we're talking about here. I mean, it was somewhat related, but different and much larger in scope. Obviously, the end of humanity would trump the loss of jobs. One of the things we've heard from some of your critics is, and I've got to be honest, I never know whether these people have an investment in AI because companies like Anthropics about to go public for several trillion dollars, like people are going to make so much money on AI right before their asses get blown off the face of the earth by the thing.

1:25:24But they're going to make a lot of money in their last days, if what you're saying is true. And so there are a lot of people who have an incentive to dismiss concerns like the ones you're raising. Like, it's fine, stop and look for bias in somebody like you. But I am a reporter, so I will engage it and ask you about it. I've said one of them in the intro that some people look at, there's really only two lawmakers in Congress right now that are pushing hard to try to rein in AI. And the lead one is Bernie Sanders. So people who don't share Bernie Sanders politics are already looking at you saying, is this a Bernie guy?

1:26:06Because I think you're a progressive. You used to work for a progressive group. And you sound like Bernie. Bernie has been saying this. Take a listen. This is him just on Wednesday. So it was after your post. But he's been talking like this for a while. Sot 24B. If all of these guys acknowledge they're building a dangerous technology and they don't know where this technology is going, You don't have to be a genius to say, hey, stop that development. Certainly, we don't want to go into super intelligent AI. We've got to ban that. And we've got to stop right now and figure out how we make sure that AI and robotics work for ordinary people and not just make Mr.

1:26:49Musk and other billionaires even reach out. That ain't complicated. The very first thing we can do is to convince our president, who appears to know absolutely nothing about AI and the dangers of AI, to sit down with President Xi of China and work on a moratorium on preventing the development of super intelligent AI and a pause so that we don't get into real trouble for the future of humanity. so i'll ask you directly is is this part of a play to support the sanders proposals when it comes to regulating ai at the government level not at all so when i when i tweeted i didn't expect it to go crazy it seems to have attracted a lot of democratic intention but i think this should transcend politics and i i think that i don't like the idea that bernie's wrapping this up with anti-billionaire rhetoric i'm not a i'm not a fan of anti-billionaire rhetoric i obviously like work for billionaires have worked for billionaires before i did this and you know i would happily work for a billionaire on any ordinary innovative technology that is not one that might destroy the world it also seems dumb not great to tie this to criticisms or like antagonism with a particular president again i think it shouldn't matter who is in the white house for dealing this because it's just a pretty obvious question like i think anyone should come to the same conclusion which is we shouldn't build something that could kill us all.

1:28:12Like no matter, yeah, no matter your opinions on other stuff. It was pretty interesting too. He cited Elon Musk because Elon also signed that open letter asking for this thing to be slowed down. He's been early on AI, but he has been one of the early ones to sound the alarm on it too, saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And he's obviously not a fan of Sam Altman, who's the starter of open AI. But you're right. And you in particular should try to transcend politics. I've seen just this week, you've done that. You went on a special report with Brett. You went on Anderson Cooper. You're here with me.

1:28:46I advise you to keep doing that because it's important that everybody hear your message and understand this is about, as you said, humanity. This isn't even about United States versus China. It's about humans versus this alien being that we are creating though. Unlike an actual alien that might come down to earth wanting to kill us all, we're creating this monster. And what you're saying is we don't have to. We can we can stop potentially, we think, from letting this technology, which could cure could cure cancer, transform into something that could cure cancer and then kill us itself. But do you believe that?

1:29:23Is there time? I think definitely. You look at the statements of, say, Jakub Pachocki, chief scientist at OpenAI, you look at public statements from people who are making real decisions, and they've all said they're open to regulation, they're open to slow down. I think the problem is probably not too difficult. There's a lot of people that have argued about this, but the actual problem of making these alien minds safe and doing it slowly isn't too difficult if we can approach it with sufficient rigor. And it's just this current race that's just very silly. It's almost like we're sleepwalking into the outcome.

1:29:55But I'm optimistic. People are all talking about it. You know, it's, I think part of the reason this particular tweet blew up like crazy was because it was like just latent. Everyone was kind of starting to think about it. People are opening Ianthropic are very keen to have some sort of agreement about mutually slowing down and not engaging in a city race. How old are you now? I'm 27. If nothing is done, how confident do you feel that you'll see your 50th birthday? Maybe 50%. Wow. Wow. That is genuinely scary. Because let me tell you something. we they passed obamacare i think in 2010 and we are now um 16 years later almost 17 years later and they still haven't done the things either side to fix that nightmare that they said they do almost 17 years ago like they don't move quickly in the u.s congress or in government at all so it really does have to come from the companies themselves.

1:31:03And yet all the heads of these companies are about to become trillionaires and don't seem prepared to listen to you or others. They seem to want to line their own wallets and just sort of say, well, I'm sure that'll never happen. Am I wrong? I think they're going to be ready to listen. I think people don't want to die. Like, I think it's going to be eventually pretty obvious. The question is just, can we act soon enough that, as you said, it's going to take time to ensure we do the right thing. The worry is it's like, yeah, you just don't want to race too close to the brink before realizing, as it were.

1:31:43I mean, have you had any discussions with the anthropic or open AI leadership about any of this? I've spoken with plenty of high-up anthropic researchers, not executives. And, you know, they are worried. they're actively worried and they've been publicly worried and they're they have varying levels of pessimism about the possibility of coordination i think some people are very pessimistic that any coordination is going to happen and they think we have to speed through but i think there are a wide variety of opinions and i think a lot i'm hopeful that they'll become more optimistic that we can collectively collectively coordinate but i will say that they're scared like my my friends at Anthropica and OpenAI, many of them are actively worried about what the world will look like over the next couple of years.

1:32:31They want external help to get them out of the race. Mm-hmm. I mean, how many people are working at these companies? Would it take a massive walkout? Is there any chance that there are other Jacobs who are in their late 20s and would like to have kids and have families? Do you think more and more people are going to do what you did? I think there have already been people who are leaving to go and work at independent regulatory agencies from the main labs. They think they would rather devote their attention to the bodies that are doing the regulating. And I think that started a little while ago, and it will only continue.

1:33:09And honestly, part of it is it's going to be easier in the future for people to move to different places as it becomes more of a common thing. I think, yeah, no one had rage quit quite as dramatically, or I think a few had. But I would guess there'd be a few more rage quits in the future. Well, and is it true you gave up your anthropic stock before you quit? That is true. To be clear, I still have quite a lot of opening ice stock, so I'm not like an angel here. But I did give up my anthropic stock before the vesting date. And there was just an article in, what was it? Yahoo. And it was entitled, The Secret Escapes of Billionaires from Bunkers to Secure Compounds.

1:33:56And it was all about how the billionaire class is buying these underground bunkers and or building that are going to be airtight, that are going to be off the grid to avoid exactly this kind of thing, this sort of existential event. So great. The billionaire class will build this all. They will get even richer off of it all. The rest of us plebs will be killed by the bots or some virus that the AI releases on us. And these guys will be in the underground bunker. But is I mean, is there talk like that at these companies that, you know, the next option for humanity would be to go underground, to go to mars to do something to get away from this thing we're building do people are buying gold they're buying guns they're buying land they're like and i don't think it's particularly rational it won't help in a in a like extinction scenario i think they're also just worried about a lot of unrest but there's people are actively actively worried um what kind of feedback have you gotten from people on the inside since you published or since you tweeted and then uh came came doing the public rounds?

1:35:05So I think there's been a lot of public and private really positive feedback from Anthropic, which I think people should really pay attention to the fact that the people building this technology have reacted well to this. I've seen more tweets from people on safety at OpenAI as well, expressing somewhat similar views. I think in general, the feedback's been very positive. obviously some disagree with like the probabilities and the actual timeline uh but they don't want to be in the race like that is just true i mean and they're saying it yeah and it seems to me if history is any guide the only time that they will actually hit the pause button and try to stop it will be once it's too late once the killing's begun once they can see something actually catastrophic is underway.

1:35:54But what you're saying is it truly will be too late. That's like trying to stop the nukes when they're already in the air crossing the transatlantic skyway to annihilate the other countries. It's already mutually assured destruction at that point. There's the possibility of some smaller disaster on the way, something like a hack of critical infrastructure something like that causes damage that would allow allow people to rally against potential things happening in the future but i think this is a bit distracting because there's going to be crazy pros and cons for everyone of the ai rollout anyway like you said there's all the short-term stuff of jobs deepfakes online general just disruptions of what it means to be human have human relationships that sort of stuff feels like it's coming for for all of us.

1:36:42I feel it coming. But I think that is separate from the big disaster, which you're right. Once the big disaster is in motion, it's already too late. I want to tell you that Anthropic did just issue a statement. Wired reached out to them. It's pretty, it's not that telling, but this is what they've written. We have always been transparent that AI will bring both enormous benefits and unprecedented risks, said an Anthropic spokesperson in a statement to Wired, citing the company's previous work on AI safety methods such as mechanistic interpretability. This work, quote, is also why we believe the world would benefit from the industry adopting a lawful, verifiable way to work together to pace how we release powerful models.

1:37:30And then Wired points out OpenAI did not return their request for comment, so no comment from them. So what, are they saying anything at all there, Jacob? Do you read anything in that that I haven't gleaned? This seems pretty anodyne and unhelpful. It is pretty anodyne, but I do think the desire for verification, some mutually verified slowdown is real. And there are people working at the labs who are working on how to prove to each other that they're actually, you know, obeying the rules of the slowdown. And this will be one of the hardest things with China, I think, is we have to somehow prove that all the parties are like doing what they say.

1:38:04No one's sneakily trying to get a one-up in the back. But honestly, that technical work doesn't seem difficult compared to the political problem. Like, I think once the political will is there, there's all these people and AIs now who are happy to try and solve the problem of verification. I think the question is just, can there be political will to have such a weird international arrangement? Well, how do you, if, you know, if Anthropik comes to you and says, Jacob, we want to elevate you to CEO. We're so inspired by what you've said here and your ethics. And your task is to continue the AI growing and its capabilities fostering things like a cure for pancreatic cancer, Alzheimer's, all the diseases that are plaguing us right now, which, you know, could potentially be within reach if we give these incredibly intelligent things, these problems.

1:38:58Like, for example, they already, I read this morning, they already solved some math problem that no human has ever been able to solve. Like they're actually, these AIs are making huge leaps and bounds in problem solving that humans have not been capable of reaching. So how would you get us to the place where we're curing the diseases, et cetera, but we are not at the point of super intelligence without quote alignment? Okay. I don't, I don't know the full answer. One thing I could try that I think is pretty good and definitely better than the current race is we make one more leap in progress on biology you said with the math thing that's completely right but already almost at the level of producing revolutionizing most areas of math of math the same thing could be true of biology soon and so that even without pushing the intelligence of the ais too high we could actually have big big big swamps of less intelligent ais but still like very good at biology, maybe even close to a human scientist and make them help us solve all sorts of biological problems potentially solve cancer without pushing to extreme levels of capability some sort of intelligent cap on how and how smart the models get this is one idea I'm not sure this is the ideal idea.

1:40:15I think there's a still a lot of reasons then trying to push further, but that's like a proposal that seems a lot better than racing ahead. How are we making them smarter? Like, what is it that we're doing that we need to stop doing? Yeah, so it's research is one thing. So that's kind of what I was doing. It's trying to look at the way we're currently growing these AIs, and then tweak the recipe, like adjust it to make it a bit better. And that requires human intellectual labor. The second way we're doing it is we're getting more raw resources, we're building more data centers, we're getting more data and we're throwing all that into our AI training.

1:40:56So the thing you'd have to do is take your biology AIs and say, okay, do not use these AIs to make themselves smarter. Don't push the research that makes these things too much smarter. Instead, just use them for a whole host of other tasks and don't just like build up the intelligence with the research. so they wouldn't be able to learn on their own if we stopped putting that input in yeah or maybe they could learn biology on their own um but you wouldn't want to use them in particular to do ai research and you wouldn't want to continue with the the ai research uh but yes okay so i mean you make it sound like it's almost kind of simple to stop them from getting to the super intelligence point honestly yeah it's pretty straightforward just like don't do the research a glimmer of hope are you going to sleep well tonight should we should we be up worrying biting our nails or what's your level of confidence we're going to take this on oh that's a great question i really i really don't know i mean i did just tweet this out in like some it was mostly a kind of fit of peak i didn't expect it to go this this viral and i don't have like great opinions about what's going to happen i'm hopeful i'm pretty hopeful um okay and you're sleeping at night.

1:42:14You go to bed, you sleep your eight hours. You're able to still exist on this earth happily. I hope to have my hours exist normally. Yeah. What about you? Has this changed your probability of sleeping soundly? It's been a dark week and this added to it, but I'm a generally hopeful, optimistic person. So I'm going to place my bet on humanity. Thanks to you, Jacob Cox. And we have a better shot today than we did earlier this week. Thank you. Thanks, man. Wow. What a day. What a story. God bless us all. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.