Serial Killer Israel Keyes, Scott Peterson, Sammy the Bull - Megyn's "True Crime" Mega-Episode

27:38This is the case in which the prosecution had, I'm sorry, the judge had some lunatic show up at her house trying to videotape her. She spoke to that just the other day saying it was an effort to intimidate me. Good luck. And the guy who did it was arrested. But anyway, a new piece of videotape now showing Kim Potter after the shooting. We've all seen the taser, taser, taser. Here's a new piece of videotape showing her right after that upset. And hear how her fellow officer, Officer Johnson, tries to console her. Listen, there's a lot of crying, and then we'll get to the dialogue.

28:24Oh, my God. That guy was trying to take off with me in the car.

28:33There you have it. I mean, I don't know, Mark. I think the average person looks at that and says, why are we charging her again? She screwed up. But like, how is it criminal? You know, there's I've been on, obviously, the criminal defense side. I also do a probably half of my practice are suing police agencies in situations where people have been wrongly killed. And I've watched police officers almost uniformly get acquitted or have the judge dismiss at a probable cause proceeding. It's very, very difficult to ever convict a police officer. This case, I think, is is very tough for the prosecution.

29:22And the this tape, and I'm glad you played it, certainly gives, you know, people often say, well, they didn't show remorse or they didn't understand or they there wasn't they didn't act right. I, you know, we I've spent a career defending people who didn't act right. I mean, clearly here, this is somebody who's in the throes of a great deal of angst. And I think that that is going to probably carry the day for it. Because remember, other than people who are famous, police officers are the only other category of people that truly get a presumption of innocence. Interesting. You know, to me, it boils down to the what are the instructions going to be to the jury?

30:07Because if the judge tells the jury that she can't have behaved recklessly, which is required to prove first or second degree. She if she can't have behaved recklessly without knowing she was taking a dangerous risk, you know what I mean? If she if it was a true accident, she didn't realize she was pulling out a firearm and shooting. Then I don't see how she gets convicted. Andrew Branca, who's been amazing. He's great. He writes over at LegalInsurrection.com. They were amazing during the Rittenhouse trial and everything Andrew said was right. He put it as follows. I was like, this is exactly it.

30:45He says the critical question is this. Is the state required to prove that Kimberly Potter was aware that she was holding a firearm in her hand? in order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that her conduct in handling it was reckless and manslaughter? Do they have to prove she was aware that she was holding a firearm? The defense is their position is that you cannot be engaged in reckless conduct that you do not know you are engaged in, right? Like you don't, you don't know you're firing a gun. And the judge hasn't, hasn't instructed the jury and it hasn't, and she hasn't given either side guidance on how this is going to come down.

31:20I kind of wonder, like, it all comes down to which way she wrote, how she informs on recklessness. Well, one of the problems is, and we've been arguing this in California state court for years, the difference between the state of mind for what's called an implied malice murder, the difference in homicide between murder and manslaughter is whether there's malice. Well, there's also what's called implied malice. If you act in such a way, the law will imply that you had the malice for murder. I've often argued, and I'm not alone here, that sometimes the state of mind when the jury gets the instruction on one of these manslaughter charges is very misleading, and a jury doesn't know what to do with it.

32:11And here you've got, I can understand why the judge is not giving guidance, so to speak, because they have what are called pattern instructions. They've got instructions that have been either affirmed or blessed, if you will, by the appellate courts. But she probably in this case wants to hear how the evidence comes out and then tailor it to that and tailor the instruction of that. But it's a horrific job for jurors, for laypeople to have to kind of parse through the language, which never is very clear. And then put that in context of what am I going to do with a police officer who didn't go out there with the intention to do the killing?

32:51And so that's a, you know, God forbid that you're one of those jurors. It's interesting because the defense seems to be hedging its bets. They're going to argue that she didn't have a state of mind at all intending to kill anybody. Obviously, she didn't intend to fire her gun. I think we can all give her that based on what we've seen, although some people aren't. But they also seem to be kind of hedging by saying, even if she did intend to fire the gun, she had cause because the guy, Daunte Wright, was driving away with an officer in the car, half in the car. Here is so what the prosecution did was they put on Officer Lucky, who was a three year officer who she, she, Kim Potter, was supposed to be training that day.

33:36And he was a prosecution witness sort of talking about his experience and what he saw. And then the defense attorney got up there and in like 20 minutes, seamless little boom, boom, boom, boom, cross-examination, got out the following testimony. Let's listen to it. There's a voice that appears and says, Kim, that guy was trying to take off with me in the car. Remember hearing that? Yes. Whose voice was that? Sergeant Johnson's voice. Is this a high crime area for guns as well? Yes. And for drugs? Yes. And your intuition is formulated by a number of things, but among them is that you've been in this area all your life.

34:21Yes. And know the streets as well as anybody. Yes. And you ran the plates, found that the tabs were stale, and then you had a reason to stop the car. Is that right? Yes. So you wanted to find out what was going on. Yes. Because you had an intuition that something else was going on besides the tabs. Yes. You didn't quite know, but you were curious. Yes. And there was nothing wrong with you stopping the car for the reasons you said you stopped it, right? Correct. No. So he's basically just trying to set up, it was a proper stop, you were following order, and that this was an area that was known for problematic crimes and criminals and so on.

35:10And, you know, you also get out the fact that the one officer was half in the car when he tried to take off. It's a technique that was used by the defense lawyer that he's probably been gored by that countless times by prosecutors who go through that same litany when they're trying to convict one of his clients. I mean, I've heard that kind of this is a high crime area. This is why you had an intuition. This is why you did it. That's that that's normally what the prosecutor would do here because you have a cop who's on trial. They the other cop is going to support your theory. You're being the defense lawyer and is going to give you what you want, which is exactly what he just did right there.

35:53And by the way, you're absolutely correct, Megan, because what this does is even if you think that she that she isn't being truthful when she says she had a gun, that even with a gun, there is, you know, she had a reasonable doubt as to what was happening there and whether or not she could use the force that she used. What do you think? I mean, if you had to place a bet, and I realize the trial's in the middle, but like, what would you guess a jury would do with this? Because I realize the prosecution is like it was irresponsible. You know, a man's dead. She needs to be held accountable. But it's like you watch this distraught woman.

36:31She's been on the force 26 years. She's not like Chauvin. She doesn't have a litany of complaints against her. She's a mom. You can hear her distress. They're really going to throw this woman in jail for upwards of 15 years that Keith Ellison there wants to jack up the sentencing guidelines on her. He wants them to throw the book at this woman. Well, I'll tell you during I'll give you an example during the Rittenhouse trial. One of the reasons I was kind of leery of predicting, even though I thought that it looked to me like it was a self-defense, was you can't look or I can't see the jurors. I mean, the jury selection, I've said this for years, is everything.

37:08Most cases are over by the time you've sworn the panel because you understand, I don't care how good you are as a lawyer, you're never going to change people's view or their prism for what they look through and who they are. So you have to basically pick a jury or deselect a jury that'll give you your best shot. So I haven't seen their jury, but I will tell you that so far, the way the evidence is unfolding, it sure is a compelling argument for a not guilty. And that, I think, is probably where it's headed. Like I said, I'll circle back to what I told you before. Cops get a presumption of innocence that a lot of other people don't get.

37:50That's true. And they don't always deserve it. But I feel like in this case, come on. The woman did it. She made a terrible mistake. She didn't have a history of negligence on the force. You can show this is like a hothead or she's she never had any business having the badge. Not only did she resign right after this happened, but the chief of police was forced out. It was like, OK, by the way, The New York Times is reporting that there was a lawsuit against Dante Wright's family, raising questions about whether Dante Wright in May of 2019, the woman filing a lawsuit claims that Dante Wright shot her son in the head in Minneapolis, leaving him severely disabled.

38:28I mean, I don't know that the jury is going to hear anything about that, but, you know, the cops walk up to these defendants not knowing what they're dealing with, but they always have to presume the guy's got a gun and is willing to use it. Well, I saw that today, and most probably that will not come into evidence, because unless the cop knew or had some indication that they knew about that incident, the judge would probably rule that that's inadmissible. But having seen that, it certainly, I think, would give pause to a prosecutor if they knew about that when they were filing the case and what charges they were filing.

39:06I mean, that's that's when you get back to prosecutorial discretion. And part of the argument you've kind of implicitly made here, Megan, is why why are they exercising their discretion in this way on this case? What is the motivation for that? Is it because they want to seek justice or are they pandering? So that's Keith Ellison. He's a he's a political hack. I mean, he is he's a political hack and he's the AG there and he's the one who insisted on jacking up the charges. And now he wants to push for a jacked up sentence if she's found guilty. It happened in the wake of George Floyd and it was in Minnesota.

39:46So all the, you know, temperatures are already up and the nation is stressed. And that was reflected, I think, in her reaction to what she did. But we still need to, you know, the law is the law. And not everything's a crime just because it's awful. And she and the city will be sued. I think they already sued. And they'll get millions of dollars. That's, to me, the remedy here, a civil lawsuit, which is going to go the way of the family. More with Mark Garagos. We're going to pick up Jussie Smollett right after this break, who is represented by his firm. Oh, that's exciting.

40:21So, Mark, Jussie Smollett, the trial is in deliberations right now. The jury has had the case for about five hours, by my count, two hours yesterday after closing arguments. And now they began this morning right after nine central time. So five hours. They're deliberating. And just FYI, the racial makeup of the jury is, let's say, they're white, the majority white, middle-aged, one black man, one black woman is an alternate. And they are now kicking around whether they believe Jussie Smollett was the victim of a hate crime or made the whole thing up for favorable publicity. So I didn't realize until preparing for this that your firm had a role in this case.

41:05Well, I handled the case originally the first time it was dismissed and had I violated one of my standard rules, which is I generally will not do a state court case, criminal case out of state, out of California. I just I think I'll do federal anywhere, but state court criminal, I always think is kind of a weird creature, so to speak. But we did it there, got it dismissed. I thought that was the end of it. And then, lo and behold, the case was once again resurrected. And I am kind of dancing on the head of a pin here because my New York partner, Tina, is trying it with local counsel Nene. And I was hoping, actually, that there would have been a resolution before this because the judge has kind of indicated that he's issued an informal gag order.

42:03And even though I'm not on the trial team this time around, my partner is. So I'm trying to dance around that. I will tell you that I thought it was resolved fairly last time. I have my own theories as to what's going on right now. But since there's an informal gag order, I'm gagging myself. But I have a lot to say. And after a verdict or a resolution here, I'm happy to fill you in as to what I really think is going on. I accept. You mean with the lengthy deliberation or with the fact that charges are ultimately filed? No, with the why this was resurrected, why the case was resurrected, and kind of the players involved and everything that has transpired.

42:46I think I think, frankly, it's outrageous that he's on trial again for the very same thing that it was already resolved on. What punishment did he face the first time around? Well, the punishment was he was the case was dismissed. He forfeited ten thousand dollars, which was the basically the 10 percent of the bail and had performed some community service. So that those were all the things I I. That's nothing. He deserves I don't think he belongs in jail for a long time, but he deserves to be punished. He made this whole thing up. He undermined legitimate claims of racial attacks. He did more to damage black people who genuinely get attacked by racists than anybody's done in a long, long time.

43:30And he should face trial and be punished. OK, so you and I can agree to disagree. I like it when you can't argue. Yeah, I was just going to say, when I'm not muzzled, I'm happy to respond to all of that, including the fact that he's maintained his innocence, testified that it didn't happen. And so does O.J. Yeah, well, the O.J., I always say the jury got it right in both cases in O.J. I understand that. Well, I understand that the proof argument in the O.J. case, but that man killed his wife and her friend, Ron Goldman. And there's absolutely zero doubt in my mind. And the civil jury did their job.

44:07That's right. Exactly right. All right. So so we'll table Jussie Smollett and we will accept your invitation to come back and discuss it. I do think it's five hours is actually not that long because they have a lot to go through. And I don't think I think it's too early to be drawing conclusions one way or the other. You know, people who think it's clear are like, why didn't they come back two hours? You know, but I think out of respect for the process, a lot of juries just want to go through the evidence, go through the testimonies. And you never know. There's a whole thing. And that's that's I've had jurors say that in high profile cases.

44:36I remember in a case I tried in Santa Monica 20 years ago that I asked them why they were out. They came back and they acquitted the client across the board. And they said, well, what were you hung up on? They said, we really weren't hung up. It's just it's a high profile case. We didn't want people to think that we were just going to come back not guilty immediately, a la OJ. So they jurors are aware of that. They get that. Yeah, there is a question, an interesting piece over on National Review today about whether Jussie Smollett should face perjury charges, because to people on my side of the aisle who think he's clearly lying and have been listening to the police chief and everybody all along, they conclude what he said on that stand was so patently false that he should be facing charges for it.

45:20I mean, there's no question either he was lying or those two brothers were lying. Both cannot be true. The idea that you're going to keep torturing me with this when I can't respond? Well, let me ask it this way. Let me ask it this way. I don't want to get my poor partner in trouble who's sitting there in Chicago. But how unusual is it? Now, I won't forget Jussie. How unusual would it be to, if there's an acquittal in a criminal case, for the prosecutor to then come back and charge the man acquitted with having perjured himself? Well, let me give you an example that happens more often. In federal court where you have sentencing guidelines, if you get on the stand and testify and lose, you get your sentence enhanced.

46:05I mean, that's because you did not accept responsibility. You basically obstructed justice. You lose three levels of acceptance. So it happens in the reverse all the time. And it shouldn't be that way, but it is because you've got an absolute right to go to trial, force the prosecution to prove their case. You shouldn't get punished when you go to trial and try to prove that you're not by taking the stand, which is waiving your Fifth Amendment rights. So I take the opposite. In fact, it reminds me of when people say, how do you sleep at night knowing that your client is guilty? And I said, I don't lose sleep over that.

46:43I lose sleep over going away when I've got a client who I believe is innocent. That's when I lose sleep and engage in alcohol therapy. Right. A hundred percent. You know, when I went to law school, I used to be that person. I wanted to be a prosecutor. And there was a very well-known defense attorney who came in and started talking to us. And the young, idealistic me actually asked that question, how do you sleep at night, knowing that you're getting guilty murderers and so on, off. And he answered it the same way you did. I come around. I'm definitely more prosecution-oriented still. But I love the role that criminal defense attorneys play.

47:24And it is critical to to do process to the to the nation standing on the stilts upon which it was built originally. And I hate that it's being eroded, you know, more and more in various settings. And sort of you get railroaded for ideology if without a defense lawyer. You know, it's interesting flip that has taken place. You know, I made my career basically in the 90s defending Susan McDougal, who was Bill and Hillary Clinton's erstwhile business partner in Whitewater. And I tried her case in Santa Monica. I tried against the Office of Independent Counsel for an obstruction of justice. We wanted Little Rock against Ken Starr.

48:04And all the arguments that we used to make and that the Democrats used to make in the 90s about an office of independent counsel and a prosecutor who had political motives. Well, now you see that those are the same arguments that President Trump was. Yeah, it's all been almost identical. And the Democrats were all of a sudden embracing law. All right. Hold on. Stan, I'm standing you by there. There's much, much more to discuss, including Alec Baldwin, Michael Jackson. We'll do it right after this quick break.

49:00We were made for this.

49:29and your outdoor chill game, and head to Wayfair.com now to get your outdoor space ready for the season.

49:39All right, let's talk Alec Baldwin, because I did listen to your Reasonable Doubt podcast with Adam, where you talked about that, and as usual, you were fascinating on it and had some very strong thoughts on Alec's decision to come out and fight the PR war before the legal war, which is the far more important war, has been settled. you can't stop these huge egos, you know, from going out there and doing what they believe that is best for them and the brand. I want to play for the audience the section I heard you taking particular issue with on the question of whether he feels guilty. Listen. No, no.

50:18I feel that there is, I feel that someone is responsible for what happened. And I can't say who that is, but I know it's not me. I mean, I, I, honest to God, if I felt that I was responsible, I might've killed myself if I thought I was responsible. So why did you not like that? I look, there was an easy way to thread this needle. If you're insistent on throwing yourself on the grenade is obviously he is the, the, you say, do I feel guilty? Yes, I feel horrible guilt in a moral sense, but legally, do I feel responsible? No, I would never have done this blah, blah, blah. I mean, there's a way to thread that needle.

51:01This response, he is going to get, you know, I don't wish a criminal prosecution on anybody in the world. I mean, it's the worst thing in the world, but to go through, but he's going to have this thing at a very baseline level, jammed right back up at him in civil lawsuit deposition, all kinds of ways. And it's a horrible, horrible look. And by the way, you had mentioned Scott Peterson in the GMA. As we're talking right now, as we speak, the judge in Mr. Smollett's case is apparently reconsidering the GMA interview there. I mean, one of the things I'm going to have a, and I had mentioned Susan McDougall, one of her kind of bet noirs in her prosecutions was the GMA interview.

51:49So God knows if you're a criminal defendant, that's the axis of evil is to ever get on the GMA, I'll tell you. Do not do the GMA interview. Anything but GMA. You know, GMA is like they're big. ABC in general is very big on crime. So that's why they get all these exclusives because they've made that part of their beat. What would you do with that? Like if you had Alec Baldwin on the stand and you were representing Helena's family. You know, she was a cinematographer who got killed or some of the other guys that filed lawsuits who witnessed it for emotional distress. What would you do with that?

52:25Yeah, there's a lawyer who's co-counsel, I think, with Gloria on one of these lawsuits, and I know exactly what they are going to do with it. They're going to take that. They're going to jam it right back up. What do you mean you don't feel guilty? Who do you know that was responsible if it wasn't you? Why are you saying that? Why are you shirking your responsibility? By the way, every actor from john schneider on the right to george clooney on the left has already said this is an impossibility if you were careful blah blah blah they're going to do a tap dance on him and by the way he's going to walk himself into you know they've only got a tower apparently if you believe what's being reported of five million dollars in insurance i mean he's going to walk himself right into blowing through that tower and being personally responsible on top of it so I don't know what he's thinking.

53:12I don't know why they think that image control is job number one. Job number one is to keep you out of harm's way criminally. Job number two is to deal with the civil liability. Job number three is to make amends morally and ethically for, you know, your role in this horrible, horrible situation, which I don't think it was intentional in the least. I don't buy any of the conspiracy theories. But at the same time, how do you, you know, he could have said the obvious solution is it's very difficult for me getting up in the morning because I was the last person who cocked that gun, whether I pulled the trigger or not.

53:52I feel an enormous, enormous amount of guilt in a non-legal sense over that. Right, right. Right. And the more he blames himself, the more our instinct would be to let him off the hook. Right. Like if you see him really beating himself up. Right. But he's doing the opposite. I explain this to clients all the time. Remorse is you can't fake remorse. You can't you can't get up. People can sense that whether it's a jury or a judge or a fact finder, either you're authentic and you have remorse or you're a phony and you don't. I mean, remorse, by the way, that tape you played earlier of the officer who shot Dante, that to me is real, authentic remorse and immediate angst.

54:42Yeah. So Alec, he didn't have to do this. He's been speaking with the police. Right. And so in trying to stave off legal charges, that's the avenue. Talk to the sheriff. Have your lawyer there. Make sure you're giving them all the information. He appears to have ticked off the sheriff with that Stephanopoulos interview, because let me play the soundbite that Alec said that that seems to be getting him in hot water because the sheriff has now responded publicly, which is not what you want. Here's Baldwin on whether he actually fired the gun. So I take the gun and I start to cock the gun. I'm not going to pull the trigger.

55:16I said, do you see that you will just cheat it down and tilt it down a little bit like that. And I cock the gun. Can you see that? Can you see that? Can you see that? and she says and then I let go of the hammer of the gun and the gun goes off I let go of the hammer of the gun the gun goes off at the moment that was the moment the gun went off yeah that was the moment it wasn't in the script for the trigger to be pulled well the trigger wasn't pulled I didn't pull the trigger so you never pulled the trigger no no no no I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them never Right, because that really will get me sued.

55:48Well, now the Santa Fe sheriff has responded saying, and I quote, guns don't just go off. So whatever needs to happen to manipulate the firearm, he did that. And it was in his hands. What would you have thought if you if you saw that as Alex lawyer? I would have said I told you so. And I would have, you know, probably pulled a Harlan Braun and resigned like he did in Robert Blake's case. I mean, you can't go out there. This is not a public relations issue. This is a criminal investigation. You can't go out there and then inflame the very person who is investigating you. You, as you said, you cooperate.

56:28You try to show that you are anything but trying to provoke them. But he's repeatedly done everything that he shouldn't do. It's almost a textbook case of what you shouldn't do when you're in harm's way. Yeah, he's not campaigning for an Oscar. He's trying to keep himself out of jail and out of bankruptcy court. Well, you know, he said the other day, I don't know if you saw it or if you've got the clip. He said somebody told me basically I'm not in harm's way. I don't know who that somebody was unless they're baiting you into being stupid. So it's mind boggling to me. If somebody's telling you that, I hope it isn't your lawyer.

57:10Yeah, we haven't heard that from the sheriff. Jeff. OK, so let's talk about speaking of famous clients with huge egos who believe they know better when it comes to dealing with the press and how to handle law enforcement. Michael Jackson, while you were dealing with the Scott Peterson case, you were representing Michael Jackson on the child molestation criminal case. And I realized that ended because you had to focus on Scott Peterson and Michael was like, only one person can represent me. But that was crazy. You were everywhere. where? I'll give you a backstory there. The originally before that case was filed, I had had repeated conversations with the DA and his name was Tom Sneddon, I believe.

57:52Yeah. And I kept telling him this case is a loser. I don't know what you're doing. This family, this Arvizo family I've investigated, I have figured out and I did it in real time for Michael because I'd represented Michael for years at that point. And I knew that they, um, this was not a family that was going to end well, uh, for Michael. And so I advised them the, the, the Jackson team, they needed to kind of extricate themselves from this. And sure enough, they did. And, um, then the Arvizo family went to the same lawyer that had previously represented the, um, uh, accuser from 1993 that Howard Weitzman, when Howard was representing - Can I just clarify something, Mark?

58:37I just got a little lost there. You told Michael to extricate himself from what really, like when he was friends with the boy and the family prior to them accusing him? You were like, these are grifters, do not befriend them. That was basically your take. Yeah, I won't reveal the attorney client, but that's a pretty good synopsis. And so then what happened was, is the Santa Barbara DA ended up indicting him so that they wouldn't go to a probable cause preliminary hearing. In California, almost all criminal felony cases are prosecuted by way of a preliminary hearing. They didn't want the witnesses on the stand because they knew what we would do to them.

59:19So they didn't end run. They indicted. Well, when they indicted, they indicted him on a conspiracy. That was the first count. Well, I took a look at that. And I remember saying to Michael at the time, I said, hey, this conspiracy has nothing to do with you. This was my investigation of the Arviso family. I'm going to end up having to testify in this case. You need another lawyer, which is when we brought in Johnny Cochran, brought in Ben Brofman, my good buddy, Ben. Yes, because you testified. I remember that you testified. Not once, but twice that I was the one who did the investigation. I was you couldn't blame Michael for that.

59:54I was the one who was any so-called conspiracy, which was kind of manufactured by the prosecutor was at my behest. I see because they were like, Michael, you've been investigating this poor family, this poor young child. And you were like, it wasn't him. It was me. So you couldn't represent him. You were a witness. I was a witness. And like I say, I didn't testify just once in front of Judge Melville in the jury. I testified twice, and I'll never forget the second time saying something which that jury found to be very humorous. I think I was mocking the prosecutor. And I turned to Pat Harris, who was then with me, and I said, this jury's never going to convict him.

1:00:35This is a laughing jury is an acquitting jury. That's an interesting rule. And you were right. They did not convict him but of course the stories about him would continue well yeah because as you pointed out the family had to like they'd sued other people like when you see these vexatious litigants who sue over and over and over again it's like okay but the accusations against him would never stop and i've been dying to ask you about this and i i use you know a lot of our listeners are just listeners they're not watching this on youtube uh so i'm using air quotes the documentary about Michael that was on HBO and what you thought of those two accusers, James Safechuck and Mark Robson.

1:01:21I'll tell you what I thought about that documentary. I came very close to suing. I came very close to suing in that case because I remember Adam actually on our podcast had played a clip from the documentary and they made it seem like I was saying, I'm going to land like a ton of bricks on top of these accusers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That isn't what happened. What the documentary filmmaker had done was he cut and spliced a, um, uh, press conference. I had done the press conference was because when I picked up Michael from Vegas and took him to Santa Barbara to surrender. The air carrier, the private charter had installed a pinhole camera that had spied on my attorney client conversations with Michael.

1:02:12Yes. So I, you know how I found out about that Greta Van Susteren called me the next morning and said, there's a guy who's shopping, a lawyer who's shopping your conversation on the jet with Michael for a million bucks. And I, she gave me the name. I called the lawyer. I said, are you out of your mind? You can't, you can't shop. This was attorney client. You're, and he said, my client thinks he's won the lottery. So I went to court. I got a restraining order, came outside and said, I'm going to land like a ton of bricks on you. When you violate the attorney client privilege, the documentary maker cut and pasted that to make it seem like I was talking about the accusers, which I wasn't By the way, that guy who we got the restraining order against was later prosecuted federally convicted.

1:03:01And I got a twenty five million dollar judge or twenty two million dollar judgment against him for for that as well. Well, the court of appeal reversed it and said that that was excessive. I'm sure the guy doesn't have twenty two million dollars anyway, but it's a moral victory. I can't believe your life is so fascinating. You've done everything. You represented everyone. one. So I saw that documentary and I was like, okay, it's not, doesn't look good for Michael, that's for sure. But because I am a lawyer at heart like you, I needed to know more. So I started digging and digging and digging. And then I found all this stuff in particular about Wade, about the lies he's told in his civil litigation against the Jackson estate, about how he denied having shopped, written and shopped a book about Michael with laudatory things in it.

1:03:49And then it turned out they found it. They got it from like Random House or one of the publishers. So he lied. He got caught lying under oath at his deposition. Then they demanded copies of said book from his computer. He said he didn't have any or he basically lied at every step. And then they proved that he had copies on his computer that he tried to write over. I mean, he was lying all along. And the other guy, James, every single point. And that documentary maker should be ashamed of himself. He didn't mention any of it. Exactly. It was completely sanitized. It was a complete rewrite of history.

1:04:28But, you know, that's I hate to say that that's emblematic, but it certainly seems to be emblematic of what's happening in America right now. And with what I think people on the right like to call mainstream media. But it's really kind of abhorrent as to what's happened with journalism and so-called journalism and the docu-journalism. Well, then you get the imprimatur of Oprah at the end, like interviewing the documentarian, like, oh, tell us all, just as truthful as we think you are, are you even more truthful? Your brilliance shines. It was, this is bullshit. I don't know what happened between Michael and either one of these men when they were younger.

1:05:08I don't know. No one knows. We weren't there. But, well, they know. But the documentarian, again, air quotes, had an obligation to include that information about those two accusers, because the other guy, Safechuck, had just been hit, I think, with a$500 ,000 lawsuit two weeks before he came out as an accuser. You know, it's like, now, maybe that doesn't make him a liar, but we deserve as an audience to know. We deserve to know. And I go on this tear a lot, Mark, because I hate the absence of due process and trial by media, even though I'm in the media. And what I hear from everybody is, though, yeah, but he was a molester.

1:05:44Yeah, but he did it. Yeah, but it was a long line of boys that he molested. And I don't know whether that's true or not. I actually, I don't know whether it's true. I heard the same things everybody else heard. People would say, would you take your son? Because when I was representing Michael, my son was 10 years old. They used to say, would you take your son, Jake, to Neverland? And I said, well, actually, I did several occasions. Yeah, but did you let him stay overnight? I don't know. I don't know anything about the other accusations. I do know that the accusations when it involved the case I was dealing with were ludicrous.

1:06:20But what about that? Right. Because I would not allow my son to spend an overnight with any parent with any grown up. You know, I was like, that's weird. And you shouldn't allow it. And Michael was a large child. I mean, I've read you say that, too. But still, you just don't let your six year old spend an overnight with a grown up under any circumstances. But what do you think? Like when you think about him, do you believe you said you have a sixth sense? Do you have a sixth sense that he was capable of it? No, I really didn't. I mean, he just there was a childlike naivete on his part. And by the time I got to him, he had been, you know, you're talking in the 2000s.

1:07:01This was not the same Michael Jackson that was in the 90s, at least as reported to me. And I represented him for a couple of years. And every encounter I had with him, he was just, I thought, he'd just been pilloried. He'd been beat up, basically. And it was, I thought, awful. I mean, it really kind of made you sad. I mean, I was a huge fan in the 80s, and I just didn't think he had kind of become trapped, so to speak, and it was an awful thing to watch. Putting, tabling for now, the allegations against him, since we don't, we're not going to resolve those here. Do you think that his situation and what happened to him personally was analogous to what happened to Elvis?

1:07:48You know, like that level of fame, attention, grifters. I think that's exactly it. I see this play out. I represented Chris Brown for about 10 years. And Chris, I was always worried that would happen to him, and it did not. I mean, he kind of pulled himself out of all of that that he had been involved in. And you worry when somebody reaches fame so early and on such a magnitude that what it does to you. And so, you know, I think that's an apt comparison by you. And I think that it's interesting that he had that relationship with Elvis's daughter as well. Yeah, that's right. There are just certain people who reach this bizarre level of fame that is in no way healthy.

1:08:42I would put Tom Cruise in that same category, too. I don't think his weird Scientology rants are totally unconnected to his incredible fame and success and just what it does to a person. I would not wish that for my children, for anybody I care about. I've walked down the street with various clients. I'll give you a couple of examples. I've walked down the street. I represented Mike Tyson for a period of time. And I've walked from my office with Mike down to another building to do a mediation. And I've seen what people do. And I've walked down the street with Michael. I've walked down the street with Colin Kaepernick.

1:09:21I mean, the the level of fame and what happens and and the fact that you really can't go out your outside without stopping traffic literally and people kind of besieging you. I mean, it's it's on a level that it's really hard to capture and make people understand for certain people when they get to a certain level of fame and and and kind of notoriety. Would you say that probably the most famous person you've represented and seen that with is Adam Carolla? I feel like that's...

1:09:59I will tell you something about Adam. I often say, Adam always says that he thinks about me when he sees anything legal. In the last six or seven years that we've done the podcast together, I've learned more about human nature. He's a great sociologist and really kind of social or cultural anthropologist. His observations are so spot on. He's got such a he's got such a way of viewing the world that is just, you know, that you've you rarely come across somebody like that. It's true. He's one of those people you just want to shut up and listen to. It's just like, go on, just keep going, because he has a way of of capturing what's happening in the nation.

1:10:41That's very unique. But jumping back, because I know you didn't represent. He's just your friend and co-host. But I do. Can I just ask about Michael Jackson? Actually, I did represent him, but we won't talk. What do you do? That's a whole different sentence. A whole different thing. I have represented Adam. So I'm going to get him. I'm going to do a. You get him in here and cross-examine him. I'll see you. We'll test your chops and see what you got. I still got it. I do. You're raising boys. You got to, right? That's right. Oh, my God, 100%. Although my daughter is just formidable. I mean, I always say, like, they could send her down to Guantanamo.

1:11:21She could get anything out of anybody down there. So when you were with Michael Jackson, since you spent so much time with him, like, what was he like? Would you mind just describing it? So he was childlike. But, like, can you expand on it? Because I'm genuinely curious what that would be like. By the time I got to him in the, like I say, in the 2000s, I spent multiple times or multiple days at Neverland. So I watched him there. I watched him when he was camped out in Vegas as well. He was struggling. I mean, I think that's the best way to put it. He was struggling with all the things that were happening, with the accusations.

1:12:02He was frustrated by it. And I kind of there was a lot of empathy I had for him. One of the things that's hardest about doing the kind of work that we do is when you've got people who are in the eye of a storm, it's very hard to try to get them centered because it's kind of an existential threat. The criminal prosecution is there's I often tell clients, at least with a death, a sudden death of a loved one, you have the ability to mourn, to have a funeral or some kind of a ceremony or wake. And then you get to move on. You get some kind of closure. You never really get that in a criminal case. And so that's that's what I witnessed.

1:12:47And it was awful to watch. It's just a it's a strain. It's a drain. And it's just a it's a real, real painful thing to watch somebody who is so creative, who is so brilliant, who is such a genius in one area to have to deal with something that is so foreign to them. Right. And so ugly. I mean, just terrible, terrible accusations. So much more to go over with Mark there. I could do this all day. I could keep you here for 10 hours and I'd still have more to talk about. We're going to pick it up after the break. I want to ask Mark about CNN, where he worked for a while. What does he think about how they're how they are today?

1:13:28Okay, so Mark, I used to watch you for years on CNN, back when CNN was watchable, and you'd give your legal analysis on everything. And then you were gone one day, and I was like, somehow you were linked to Michael Avenatti. And I was like, okay, you must have been temporarily insane because Mark Garagos is way too smart to associate his brand with that lunatic. So what happened? You don't work there anymore. Or what happened? Why would you ever have associated with that nutcase? Well, I represented Michael. So as a client, I mean, he had a DV case and I represented him and I've known him for a number of months.

1:14:06And then the cases you mentioned happened in New York. CNN, in their infinite wisdom, decided to cut and run. In fact, I think I famously called him the cut and run net. But they were already kind of descending into this polemic that they've decided the path they've decided to go down. I think there was some kind of irony that you would see Anderson sitting with Toobin next to him as they're announcing that Cuomo would be suspended. And now I'm seeing where Mr. Zucker is being pilloried for his handling of the situation. And I think the writing's on the wall. There's going to be a shakeup. And the largest stockholder in their merger there has already said they need to get back to what they used to do, which is Malone of the Discovery Channel.

1:15:03So I think within the next six weeks, you'll see a reboot there. They're given what's happened over there and the ratings and everything else. They're not long for this world in their present kind of composition. Are you shocked? I mean, I've said publicly, I used to watch CNN when I was getting ready for the Kelly file. I used to have in my office, I had CNN on, not Fox, because it was like O 'Reilly before me and who I think is enormously talented. But he's not, you know, if you want to get facts, at least back then, you would put on CNN, you would put on Anderson Cooper. And that's gone. Even Anderson, gone.

1:15:37They went hard partisan during Trump. And it was way more opinion from the anchors than I ever wanted. And it was all uniformly anti-Trump, anti-Republican. And it remains thus to this day. I wonder, having come from the belly of the beast, what you think when you watch it now? Well, I often used to say, I thought there was some kind of, I hate to psychoanalyze them, but, you know, Zucker, as people tend to forget, was at NBC when Donald Trump was kind of anointed with the Apprentice series. And I think that there was something going on where he just decided to go all in on the anti-Trump network and turn it into that.

1:16:17And, you know, at this point, like you, I have to go search for BBC, sometimes Al Jazeera to try to get any kind of a factual or what's going on in the world. You just can't find what it used to be 20 years ago. I mean, it used to be that you had Larry King on there for many years. And I always thought that was a fascinating show, which is why I did it, because it was long form, people would talk kind of like what you're doing now. And you would get to at least hear things that weren't just like a Twitter bite of 140 characters. You get people to talk, you have a give and take, they could have different viewpoints.

1:16:59And you would hear that. That to me is more interesting than somebody just going on a polemic with two other people who are kind of their cheerleaders. Yeah, you might learn something. You might be intellectually stimulated instead of just outraged all the time. How about that? What did you make of, I mean, right, so CNN cut and run, because you were sort of with Avenatti when he got caught up in that thing to extort. I was there and had was trying to mind you, I had a relationship with Nike. I knew Michael and tried to kind of mediate a situation that I thought would turn out bad. I mean, I've got a we could do a whole hour on what what happened there.

1:17:42But like I say, Michael was also a client. I don't want to denigrate him in any way, shape or form. That's OK. I'll do it. Yeah. I mean, you will do it. And I'll sit and just listen to you. Well, so he got he wound up getting charged criminally. He had many legal problems. This is just one of them. But it's funny because he's a CNN cut and run. He got a mistrial. He went pro per or pro se federal court in Orange County and got a mistrial based upon prosecutorial misconduct. It's actually up in front of the Ninth Circuit now as to whether that's once in jeopardy, because normally if you get a mistrial and you request it as a defendant, you don't get a once in jeopardy, meaning that you can't be tried again.

1:18:25But there is a kind of a sliver of the law that says if you're goaded into asking for a mistrial by the prosecution, that can be the one instance where the prosecution can't try you again. Well, whatever it is, he's a bad man. But you're not. And CNN did cut in big just because you were in a meeting with him. That's the end of your relationship after, what, a decade? They'd been making money off of you. Closer to 20 years. I mean, I will tell you, it was really and I had always resisted being a contributor because I always felt that being a contributor meant that I would have an issue with kind of advocating for clients.

1:19:07because some clients do not belong on CNN in years past. I would want them either on a morning show or I would want them somewhere else in terms of where I thought they were best. But finally, they were kind of relentless. And I did take a contributorship with the caveat that I was able to do other things. And if it was client related, they had no input whatsoever. And they just cut and run like nobody's business. I think because they felt that they you know, there was a lot of people who were second guessing themselves about Michael when that happened. And well, that was smart of them to do because they expressed no skepticism about him and his ridiculous claims about Trump and so on.

1:19:54I mean, I was at NBC at the time and I had him on and he was expecting to get the same treatment from me that he got from the mainstream media. And I really felt like a simple Google search would have served him very well. in misunderstanding me, you know, and getting over his misunderstanding of me. And I gave it to him pretty tough and it's fine. I gave it to the other guy who is on the opposite side of him. Tough, too. This is the Stormy Daniels case. But it was very clear that he was this is not an honest lawyer. And what he did to Kavanaugh was unforgivable. But but I think the fact that CNN promoted him and so on, they felt so guilty.

1:20:28They didn't need to take it on you just because it was your client. You were in this one meeting with him. And to me, they now it's like they won't cut, cut, you know, ties with masturbator on the air, Jeffrey Toobin. How much did Chris Cuomo have to do? Don Lemon credibly accused by a guy of Don allegedly fondling his own genitals and then rubbing his hands all over this poor guy's face in a bar. I had him on the show. There's an eyewitness. I feel like what what is the moral handbook that they are following over there? Like I say, I think that everything that I've been hearing, I still have friends there that I've known, like I say, for decades.

1:21:09And everything that I'm hearing is that Zucker's not long for the job and that people are not happy with what's happened to it. And, you know, it's not exactly unpredictable. They kind of went all in on the Trump mania. and obviously once Trump was gone, what are you going to do? So the ratings have cratered. It's really, you know, I'm old enough to remember when they would get a 10 share and now you're talking below a one share. So, I mean, that's astonishing. I read the other day where Chris's nine o 'clock show sometimes was getting 900 ,000 people. I mean, there was a time when CNN, you could just have the color bars on there and you get 900 ,000 people.

1:21:56Oh, yeah. I mean, when I launched America's Newsroom with Hemmer in 2007, we created that show from 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. We'd get around 1.3 million. And we were thrilled. And the company was thrilled with that at 9 in the morning when everybody's at work. It was like, great. And now, I mean, all this time later for the 9 p.m. on CNN to not even be cracking a million, it's embarrassing. I mean, they're always like, in the wake of his downfall, they're like, the highest rated anchor on CNN. I'm like, you should not be bragging about that. You should not be. Don't call attention to the fact that he was here.

1:22:27And when you have to resort to talking about the demo, then you really know you're you're desperate. So, well, the demo actually is relevant because that's what they base the advertisers on. That's like that's how you get paid. The demo. The demo numbers are embarrassing when you take. Oh, my God. I mean, Fox's demo numbers, meaning under 25 to 54 year olds, are higher than CNN's overall number. the number of overall households in the nation that are watching on many hours. So, yeah, they're going in the wrong direction. And I hope it's true that they're going to get back to news because we need a channel that's a little bit more centrist.

1:23:02I agree. I think people are crying out for that. People want that. People want that kind of that. Just give me the news. Let me go. And, you know, we're 20 minutes. I can watch and understand what's happening in the world. And by the way, not everything is America centric. I'd like something in the context of the world. Well, forget it. You're not going to get that on cable news. The foreign news doesn't rate, which is why you rarely see it. OK, I want to ask you about another avenue of cases that you've been filing when it comes to these covid restrictions. You're in the People's Republic of California where the restrictions have been.

1:23:39I mean, I don't know how you're dealing. And so in addition to being a lawyer, you're a restaurateur. And tell us about what you've been trying to do and how it's been going. in the courts? Well, it's frustrating because we won a victory at the trial court level in Los Angeles. We got a judge back, I want to say in November, when we have an unelected county health officer named Barbara Fular, without any evidence whatsoever, without any data whatsoever, we're talking a year ago, she shut down outdoor dining. Now, mind you, I can sustain it as a restaurant, but most restaurateurs can't. I mean, there's 30 ,000 some odd restaurants in LA County, and a number of them went out of business due to the COVID shutdowns.

1:24:26Well, then we went to, and we moved to the outdoor dining, and that was working, and it was working well. People were able to survive, not the least of which because of some of the funding that took place, but then she just decreed there was going to be no more outdoor dining. And we sued. And sure enough, we got a judge in the writ court ruled after basically issuing three orders to show cause and the county could not respond. They couldn't point to a single piece of data, a single study that showed that COVID was being transmitted outdoors by dining. So he enjoined them. Well, we ended up going.

1:25:05They got to stay at the court of appeal. That was reversed. I've been up at the U.S. Supreme Court and just within the last five days, they denied the U.S. Supreme Court denied the petition. But the one of the things that's happened is Justice Gorsuch has basically called out this case, this hundred year old, hundred twenty year old case named Jacobson and said that it's been given a towering presence. And I couldn't agree more. And that's the fight that we've been fighting that basically unelected bureaucrats from health departments are decreeing what people can do or not do, and that all of that is predicated on this state of emergency that our governor has announced, I think, going on 20 months ago.

1:25:54We're still in a state of emergency in California, which is the only basis upon which the county health directors can do what they do. It's so crazy because you're out there in California. Up until recently, I've been living in New York for 20 years almost. And, you know, the mayor of New York just on his own decided that five to 11 year olds must have mandatory vaccinations in order to eat inside any restaurant there. You have to double jab your five year old to eat in a restaurant, to go see the Rockettes, to go to a movie theater, to go to the gym, whatever. Go see the Knicks. It's ridiculous.

1:26:28They've been going. They've been going to all of these events and the rates didn't spike. The spikes coming to the Northeast now because it's winter, right? That's the way it goes. But the children are not to blame. The children aren't a major factor in any of this. So we have these local legislators who are drunk on their own power, like no dining outside. That's think about that. You just kind of it's like, no, that's insane. That's insane. It's not spread outside in any way. The only thing I mean, if you saw the stacks of paper that that we file back and forth in the briefing, the only thing that was ever cited by the county in defense of this outdoor dining ban was a what I would characterize as an anecdotal example of a person in Wuhan who had said he got it and he thought he got it outside.

1:27:21That is what that is different. He was eating a bat. That's not the same.

1:27:29I just feel like it's gotten so out of control. I love to see the lawsuits because they're drunk on their own power. de Blasio is out of here at the end of this month. His reign, thank God, is ending. And what they say is he, I mean, talk about delusions. He thinks he's going to run for governor. Hello, earth to bill. and that he wanted to shore up his support with his far left liberals by imposing all sort of draconian orders on the people right before he left. And he's doing it. And now all these people think about the people come from Europe with their kids. You know, they come to see New York the way we go to London, the way we go to Florence.

1:28:06And now what are they going to do? They can't take their kids anywhere. They can't do anything. Their trips are off for nothing for an Omicron, which, yes, it's more contagious, apparently. But it's it's not killing anybody. There have been zero deaths from Omicron. Well, and the problem is, is when you ask for any kind of data, when you ask for any kind of anything, just show me something, they can't answer you. And that's a very frustrating situation to be in, both as a lawyer and as a restaurateur, as you call it. But restaurants are on a very thin margin to begin with. And you can't just continue to destroy restaurants and destroy the small businesses.

1:28:48And that's unfortunately what we've got. And it's only a matter of time before this catches up to us. I've said before, this is not going to end well. All right. Last line of inquiry before I let you go. You've been so generous with your time. I think what we saw in the Rittenhouse case was what happens, I said this on the air, when social justice meets courtroom justice. That to me, the courts are still the one place that haven't been totally co-opted by the far left social justice warriors who just want identity to matter and not facts, not evidence. And it's a comfort to me, as somebody who did practice law for a long time, it's a comfort to me.

1:29:28But when I see what they're teaching in law schools, there was just some case, oh my my gosh, what was it? One of the law schools now is requiring people to have an affirmative statement of how they're going to be anti-racist and pursuing it. And it's like, what? Wait, it's none of your business what their political persuasions are, where they stand on these social issues. Just teach them the law. I worry about the up and coming generation of lawyers and whether we're going to be able to keep that divide between social justice and courtroom justice. What do you make of it? Look, I'll go back. We'll come full circle to MacDougall again in the 90s.

1:30:03I was complaining then that that was kind of, at least by the Office of Independent Counsel, a political show trial. And guess what happened? Then the script flipped. And sure enough, the same thing happened 20 years later, except now it was aimed at Republicans as opposed to Democrats. And so there's plenty of blame to go around. But the lesson to take away from this is The worst place in the world to try to test out your social or cultural issues is in a criminal courtroom. That's where that should be the one sacrosanct place where we first of all, we have prosecutors who are making decisions that are based on justice as opposed to some other kind of calculation.

1:30:50And it should not be a political calculation. It should be a criminal justice calculation. So I'm with you. I share that. We've got young lawyers. I've got some great young lawyers, and I've experienced other young lawyers who I think, you know, could use a dose of, you know, my father, who was my partner for many years, used to say that one of the things he thought that the criminal justice system could use is a dose of the military justice system. And I'd say, what do you mean? And he'd say, well, in the military justice system, you can be a prosecutor one day in a defense lawyer the next day.

1:31:24And that's a great way to kind of weed out the ideological agendas. If you have to understand what it is to prosecute somebody and you have to understand what it is to actually defend a human being. I like that. And conversely, any plaintiff's lawyer or prosecutor should be sued at least once in their life, right? Be on the other side of it, feel the stress of what that can do. Exactly right. It should be a prerequisite. All right. So now I'll let you go. But are you going to at least are you going to give me a prediction on how Jussie Smollett's going to come out? Hung jury conviction? No, but I'll call you.

1:31:57I'll call you. I'll call into your what is it? 1-800-MEGAN line. Yeah. 833-44-MEGAN. I'll call you after. All right. Good. I'm going to hold you to that. Thank you, Megan. I enjoyed this. Same. Such a pleasure. Come back, please. OK, thank you. There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to close that gap. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. So when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it's time to make an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more zeroing in on the one you'll actually end up calling home.

1:32:36Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. To realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us. To face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this. Today, we are examining a serial killer that some in law enforcement have called, unlike any other in modern American history. A predator who was meticulous, methodical, unpredictable, and for years completely undetected. His name, Israel Keyes. Keyes had no victim type, no geographic pattern, and an MO the FBI described to be as, quote, unique as a fingerprint.

1:33:32Our very own Maureen Callahan, host of The Nerve, spent years uncovering how Keyes operated. Her investigation led her to write the bestselling book, American Predator, the hunt for the most meticulous serial killer of the 21st century. Maureen also appears in the ABC true crime documentary, Wild Crime, 11 Skulls on Hulu, which traces the disappearance of Samantha Koenig, the crime that finally exposed Keyes' double life. Watch. He was taking trips. He was killing people. He buried victims all over the continental United States. Underneath his bed. There was 11 skulls drawn using a finger in blood.

1:34:22all of these victims souls belong to him they're mine this guy is an evil genius i'm more sane than most americans he's the best serial killer that ever existed maureen is one of the foremost experts on keys and she joins me now hi hi i've i've always known that you've written this book but i had never read it and i'd never known who israel keys was Why is his name so like not on the list of all the big serial killers? It's really wild, isn't it? Isn't it? Yeah. I mean, my theory about it is that, you know, not long after Keyes was apprehended, I'm going to say about nine months in. I don't want to spoil how this sort of ends for anybody.

1:35:06The FBI announced that they had this guy in custody. Nobody had ever heard of him. Nobody knew he'd been operating all over the United States for at least 14 years, probably more. And they asked the public for help in identifying other victims, in locating and identifying other victims. And then they just as quickly pulled this case back from public view. And I could never understand why. So I began the book with the full cooperation of the FBI. And in fact, one of the agents on the case said to me that he was really surprised because he'd never seen the Bureau in his like 26 years there give a journalist such unfettered access to them.

1:35:51And then about halfway through, I got back from one trip to Alaska. He was based up in Alaska Keys. And the FBI just shut down. What year was this? When they shut down with me? Well, the book came out in 2019. So let me say like 2017. Wow. Yeah. All right. So let's start. It's not exactly the beginning, but let's start with the murder of Samantha because this would be the tripping wire for him. She was in what state? Alaska. She was in Alaska and she was in one of those little kiosk type things where you buy coffee from, right? Like coffee is some light food. And she was working late at night, which honestly, like no woman should ever do.

1:36:34She shouldn't work alone in a little box that anyone can come up to with a gun and get into because that's exactly what happened to her. And we actually have that moment where Samantha was working in this little coffee hut. This is from the ABC documentary, Wild Crime, 11 Skulls. And he jumps in. First, he pulls a gun on her. You can see her back away. and then all the lights go out and he jumps in. Watch. In the video, you can see Samantha is closing up for the night in the coffee stand, cleaning and wiping things down. It's late at night, so there aren't many coffee drinkers that are driving up to the stand.

1:37:16And then you can see somebody walking up. You don't see a lot of people just walk up unless people are driving a vehicle. Samantha goes to the window. So she starts making coffee. And she appears to be engaging with the person. At one point, she turns towards the window and she reacts.

1:37:46I vividly remember Samantha doing this and putting her hands up. She then walks across the coffee stand and turns the lights off.

1:38:04Samantha took the money from the cash register.

1:38:10Then Samantha puts her coat on. And then this individual just jumped straight into the coffee hut.

1:38:21That moment, Maureen, she saw the face of evil and she knew it. I'll tell you, when I was working on the book, I think I watched that tape, the abduction tape. I mean, I watched it many, many, many times, but I would go through it frame by frame, partly because the initial working theory, Samantha was 18 at the time. So she had just turned 18. She was legally an adult, right? But they decided to treat it like a missing child. her boyfriend was supposed to pick her up he was 10 minutes late I don't know that it would have mattered because Keys liked taking people in pairs and that also distinguished him from many many other serial killers their original theory was that Samantha was in on it that that was a staged abduction so she could get the money so she could get the$200 that were in the till and part of this also goes to the ways in which so many assumptions are made about victims of violent crimes.

1:39:23Samantha's father was like Hell's Angel, Hell's Angel adjacent, had his own brushes with the law. She was from the wrong side of the tracks. She had overcome her own drug issues. And so the theory was she's out partying. And that's her accomplice. But when you go frame by frame through that and you stopped right there, when keys jumps in and he is a big guy he's like at least six four very rangy he jumps like a predator there's something that's almost like a panther the way he because those kiosks are up off the ground they're on the side of the road in alaska until samantha's abduction always stuffed by staff rather by attractive young girls often alone in the summer they used to make them wear bikinis oh my god that's crazy i know girls do not do this and those were very coveted jobs jobs in Alaska.

1:40:18It was something of a veneration. It was something of a validation. If you got a job, that meant you were an attractive young woman who could lure customers in. I used to worry, even my own brother, he's five years older than I am, but he used to work in one of those gas station kiosks for his high school job after hours, up until like 11 o 'clock at night or whenever they closed. And he was alone. And I used to worry about him just being in there alone. You just never know who's going to come through. It's literally everybody comes through a gas station and a female, a young female in Alaska, which like a lot of bad stuff happens in Alaska.

1:40:54It's so isolated, like bad people go there to get lost. 100%. You know, the thing too about that is it doesn't even matter. I think the time was like close to eight o 'clock or nine o 'clock. You know, in, in, I was, I was sure to go to Alaska in two distinct times, once in the dead of summer and once in the dead of winter, because I wanted to experience what those extremes really do to your mind and your body. And we're such animals, you know, like you go in the winter, I mean, you get like two hours of sunlight, if you're lucky, two hours of real sunlight. And it has a depressive feeling, but it also, there's a lot of, it's a lot of darkness.

1:41:31It's a lot of spiritual darkness. It's a lot of psychological darkness. Most people don't know this, but Alaska, more people come from the lower 48 than our natives up there. And they're all people who are running away from something. Yes. Sorry, Alaska, but it's, I mean, you're the most beautiful state in the union, but you got a lot of misfits there. Every other dateline is about something in Alaska, all these crime series, like Alaska, wild Alaska, you know, all the, anyway, so it's no accident Israel Keyes found Alaska, but he was from Washington state, right? Or he was, he had been living there at least.

1:42:02That's where he was raised. Yeah. And it's, you're the one who turned me on to the Bundy book. Oh, the stranger beside me. There's a lot of parallels there. He was also from Washington state and preyed on women EY in Washington state. Like the juxtaposition both in Alaska and Washington state for that matter of like immense beauty and Zen and calmness and nature and almost like God-like territory and evil roaming among it all. And, you know, the thing about Bundy, which when Keyes was apprehended, he did say that was one of the serial killers that he had studied. He did sort of quote-unquote admire.

1:42:43Bundy also was interstate. Most serial killers, like if you think of the Gilgo Beach killer, you know, they tend to operate in one location, the Zodiac killer. He was interstate also, but his last major, major spree, Bundy's, was in Florida. And I know we'll probably get to it later, but there is a very famous unsolved cold case involving multiple victims in Florida that I firmly believe is the work of Israel Keyes. So although unlike Ted Bundy, Israel Keyes was not an attractive man. Depends on how you look. Like, honestly, there were some images where I was like, this guy is kind of attractive.

1:43:27Like I can see it. Yeah. In the interrogation video. Oh, he looks like nothing in the interrogation video. You recoil. Oh yeah. No, he's, he's all of his power. He did have power. He was the most powerful person in that room. They were never going to solve another case without him to a point. Once the interrogation gets to five months, six months, Jeff Bell, who was one of the leads, began putting some stuff together, which was remarkable, remarkable detective work. Um, but you know, the Samantha case when they caught him and that was an interstate chase, that was an interstate, like he, he made the mistake of, wait, let's wait before we get there.

1:44:04Okay. So Samantha gets kidnapped from the, this coffee kiosk thing late at night and they're not treating it quite with the urgency they would if, you know, some rich woman in California, you know, had this happen to her. And, um, days go by and then a ransom note appears on like a, a park bulletin board. And it shows a picture of her holding a newspaper that is dated post the date of her abduction. So they know actually this is legit. This is from a person who really has her. And then what happens? and then they go to samantha's father the kidnapper is demanding like 50 000 60 000 he's already started what would be considered now like a gofundme the community is donating money james doesn't is not a man of means uh and james is frantic um but they say okay now is the time to wire the money into this into this account and james says i don't want to and then the fbi gets a tip from someone who knows james and says uh he he's acting strangely he yelled he yelled at uh my daughter a friend of my daughter's because she was she made some t-shirts find samantha and she's selling them and james is very upset that we're making money off of that so now the fbi is and and anchorage police are really confused because when they door knocked james he wouldn't let them in the house after samantha went missing so now he's looking suspicious so now they're they're looking at him and they're looking at the boyfriend who has been living with samantha and james and they don't know which end is up but they've never encountered a parent who is resistant to giving the reward money to the kidnapper who's promising a return.

1:45:59Right. Yeah. Well, then they do get money deposited into her account, and the kidnapper starts making withdrawals with her ATM card, which is, by the way, how he gets caught. But who made the deposit into her account? James eventually relented. And they said, he's asking for this much. We only deposit this much because now we have him. We're in contact and now it's a negotiation. So that's conversation. He doesn't seem to realize that using this ATM card, they're like five minutes behind him. Every time he withdraws, every time he withdraws, they're like five minutes behind him. And he knows what he's doing because he knows where all the surveillance cameras are in any given place he's going.

1:46:44He's covered up. You cannot see. It looks like it's a man. You can't really see. then it's it stops working in anchorage the card stops pinging there and then it starts pinging in new mexico in these very tiny towns in new mexico and up in alaska it's like a movie it's like these fbi agents get word that her card's pinging down there and they jump out of bed and they rush to their war room at the fbi field office and they're calling bank managers in lordsburg new mexico saying can you get there can you get there and the first one they called was like, sorry, I'm sleeping. I'm not getting out of bed for this.

1:47:20Oh my. No, it's a serial killer. Well, I guess that was just a suspicion at the time. They knew they had someone who abducted this young woman. They still didn't know whether she was in on it or not. It was very suspicious. A guy that sophisticated, if this is a true stranger abduction, they're very rare. So it's easy to see why the theorizing was such that it's the boyfriend, it's the father, she's in on it, whatever. They couldn't figure out why he would be using it. It's such an easy mode of detection. It's so bold because it's so easy, right, to see, oh my God, her ATM just pinged again. Where?

1:48:01And it is sort of how he got caught because he made the mistake of letting his car get caught on camera at one of the locations, right and so they saw what kind of make model etc of car and maybe even the license plate i'm trying to remember but they they tracked that car and that's how they found him this was also incredible police work and this is where the texas rangers come in and these guys are such badasses they are just like like jeff bell who is one of the main guys in alaska he's a he's i think he's from the northeast maybe originally i don't know but um he was like when he went down to texas and met the Texas Ranger who led that manhunt that caught Keyes, which was a very cinematic event, because Keyes was driving the most commonly rented vehicle in the United States of America, so it really was needle in a haystack.

1:48:53He was like, oh, my God, this is a Texas Ranger, just like in the movies, like a real badass, you know? Right. Yeah. So they track him down. They arrested him, and they found incriminating materials in his car. Like, it was kind of Bob's your uncle once they found him. He was not banking on cops pulling him over. No. And so then they bring him in for this interrogation. Now, who does the interrogation? Like, is it the feds? Is it the Jeff Bell of the Washington? Well, first it's Steve, Ranger Steve Rayburn, since retired, and an FBI agent named Deb Ganaway, who was looped in very quickly as all of this was unfolding in a very kinetic moment by moment fashion.

1:49:38and uh steve rayburn told me that they were so caught off guard that they didn't even have like um a two-way radio like a two-way audio system set up in their interrogation room so they had to go to target and buy a baby monitor oh no so people could listen to it outside of the room yes oh my god like this is how macgyverish and like they and they had no idea who they were dealing with they really didn't they knew he was dangerous they knew he had this woman the lead agent on the case, Steve Payne, even in that moment, he's up in Alaska sitting at a car at one of these coffee kiosks. And he's the one agent on this case who has been holding out hope that Samantha is alive.

1:50:18Jeff Bell. Jeff Bell took one look at that ransom note with the proof of life photo of Samantha. She's looking at the camera dead center with the print paper. And And he took one look at that and said she's dead. How? How did he know that? I don't know if he was just more dialed into the realities of what he factually was seeing or if there was something unnatural that he picked up on. You know, Steve, by his own admission, did not want to believe it. He knew he was in denial about it. and even the search of his car was like a it was a multi-state mess because he's up there worried that if they go into that car without the proper I mean, what's the word for thank you, or they have probable cause, then everything they find, even if Samantha's body is in there, is thrown out.

1:51:15It can't get in. But Deb says to Steve, down here in Texas we have a much looser interpretation of this. And if we've got a bad guy - Good old Texas. And we think he's got bad shit going on in his car, we can go into his car. Here we have some of this. This is from the ABC doc, Wild Crime, and it's dash cam footage from the moment that investigators decided to do a warrantless search on Keyes' car. Here it is. When we opened the trunk and the ranger started going through things in the trunk of the car. There you go. Hey. Gray hoodie with glasses in a pocket. And a mask. We found a gray hoodie that appeared to be the same hoodie that the perpetrator had been wearing in the ATM videos.

1:52:10And in the pocket of that was this gray piece of cloth that looked like a mask. We also found the amber shooting glasses. we got a gun sir you're under arrest

1:52:30after he was put under arrest he was transported to the Lufkin Police Department

1:52:38the ranger and I do a thorough search of Israel's wallet and we found Samantha's ATM card

1:52:49Samantha's cell phone was in the car. I mean, that's just devastating from a criminal standpoint. That's everything you need. You've got the victim's cell phone. You've got her license. And you've got his disguise that he was wearing all the times when he was making the withdrawals with her ATM card. Really strong. Very strong, but they don't have a body. And they don't know whether she's dead. And they don't even know whether she's dead or alive. so they need a confession from him he is taken to Lufkin PD down in Texas again small town these small towns he's operating in and they try to talk to him and he says I'm sorry I can't help you so then they call up to Alaska and Jeff Bell and his partner his then partner on this case Mickey Dahl who was this sort of very glamorous young beautiful detective who had just joined homicide she had spent like 10 years doing drugs um as a police officer oh sorry yeah yeah undercover uh on uh on narcotics but um so they jump on a plane and they go down there and they're they're so wired and they're so like dying to talk to this guy and they get in there and keys kind of lights up a bit because now he's got the attentions of this beautiful young detective and it's it becomes this sort of almost like a, I talk about it in the book, it's like a Clarice Starling, Hannibal Lecter kind of dynamic, you know.

1:54:17But he won't talk to them either. And so they have to extradite him up to Alaska. And this is all like the TikTok is really, it's so pressing because at a place like Lufkin, as would prove true even in Anchorage, they did not have the wherewithal to really contain this guy. Like this guy was such a predator and so dangerous, such a genius, completely self-taught. This guy did not have formal schooling at all, at all. And he taught himself how to hunt and kill. And so they get him back up to Alaska. And that's when it really starts clicking in because they know Samantha's dead. They've gone to the house he shares with his living girlfriend, a travel nurse, and his 10-year-old daughter.

1:55:00By all accounts, he is an incredible father it's crazy um and they toss the house and they're looking they're looking for samantha they can't find her there's a shed on the property this is before or after he's confessed he hasn't confessed to anything hasn't okay so they're just doing a search of his property because he's under arrest and there's a there are two sheds on his property and they they physically remove a shed from the property and they bring it to the fbi field office where they they leave it and then um so the the fight begins now as to who's going to lead this interrogation because they all know this is a big, big case.

1:55:34And this is a career maker. This is a star maker. If you have your eyes on becoming like a legal analyst on CNN or like, you know, they're going to make a movie out of this case, who's going to play you? The egos start coming into play. And Steve and Jeff, Steve Payne and Jeff Beller are the most experienced and they're gaming out how they're going to talk to this guy. They have zero, they really don't have much evidence. They don't have that footage of him. He's unrecognizable in that surveillance clip of him abducting Samantha. Sure. A couple of items are in his car, but he says she gave them to me.

1:56:10I was her dealer. She owed me money. Prove it. Prove I took her. You don't have anything. He was an expert at leaving no physical evidence behind. So you have to have very experienced detectives go in there or agents go in there who can say like Steve's favorite tactic was to like, he would say some people like to go in with like boxes full of paper. It's all blank paper. Oh, we have all this shit on you. We've got all these photos and you may as well just give it to us now before we like really, you know, throw you away forever. And Steve, his whole thing was like, less is more. I got one photo.

1:56:46That's, that's just the tip of what we've got on you. You know, it's a whole mind game. And the federal prosecutor on this case comes in and he sees what this case could be. And he says to them, I'm leading this investigation now. I'm questioning this suspect. That's so rare. I'm in charge. He's white collar, Megan. He's never dealt with more. Do they usually have the investigator be the prosecutor? You can't, right? Because if this goes to trial, now the prosecutor is also a witness. And now he's going to testify. Yeah, can't happen. But this is this is how wild it is up there. It's so funny.

1:57:20The twin poles of this case are Alaska and Texas, like two states with this psyche, which is like, don't tell me what to do. Do it my way. You know, fine. To a point, not when you've got like what will become the most high value. Like suspect in federal custody, like only Jeffrey Epstein exceeds this guy in terms of like. the threat he posed even behind bars. Oh, so he does confess. We have video of, so we've only titled it FBI interview. So I don't know which interrogators these are, but you'll tell us after we watch that 53 in which he does admit to killing Samantha Koenig. Here it is. He directed us north out of Anchorage towards the Matanuska Valley.

1:58:11and how many yards off the shoreline or feet off the shoreline? Right there. And he pointed to a spot on the lake. And what should they look for specifically? Ice fishing spot. Was it a hole that you cut or was the hole there? No, it was a hole I cut. you'll see it. You'll see where the hole was probably. I don't imagine. There's not very much snow up there. And Israel Keyes said that is where we would find Samantha Koenig. She's not wrapped up or anything, but there will still be some blood on ice. They can find anything else out there? Oh, you'll find her DNA. Okay. you'll probably you'll find her my DNA on her she doesn't remember anyone so okay

1:59:15the one thing I do need to know is how you killed her why I mean it doesn't really matter how it happened I'm saying that yes I was responsible and yes I told you where she is so you killed her yes

1:59:38okay several things about that clip uh we are looking at jeff bell who was one of the lead guys um and then that voice in there that says i i need i need you to tell me why you killed her that's kevin feldes that's the prosecutor who bigfooted this case that's not a question you ever ask a suspect like that. It doesn't matter what you need. I need to know. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I think these little things were tells. Now that's he's telling them where he put her remains. He had her in his shed after he murdered her. Steps away from the home in which his daughter was living? Yes. And girlfriend was packing for their trip the next day.

2:00:18They were going on vacation for two weeks. So she's out in the shed for two weeks. He left her there. and uh when they asked him about it they said weren't you worried and he said was i worried like it's like 10 degrees in alaska no the body's gonna freeze it'll be fine um but they took the wrong shed when they arrested him they took another shed that he just used as a shed he was a contractor they didn't look inside and there were a lot of mistakes on this case a lot a lot of big ones the confession which is in american predator the text of the entire confession uh the fbi has never made that public i had to get that through someone very very close to the case but uh it's in it's in none of the records that have been made public the audio of it doesn't exist they've tried to bury it it's a confession in two parts and it's broken up because one it went on so long, but to And Feldes was in real danger of tipping their hand that they had nothing, that they had no evidence.

2:01:22And once you lose that power, you can't get it back. Third, Keyes originally spoke to them on the promise that he would not get the death penalty. They broke midday, came back to finish the confession, and he said he would only finish the confession if they promised to give him the death penalty. Right. That's so strange. We don't know what explained the flip, the switch. I think his mother spoke to me for the book. She's never spoken before or since. She said when she saw the footage of Keys getting arrested in Texas, she knew that he knew his life was over, that that was it. She knew he was a killer, by the way.

2:02:04What? Oh, she knew he was a killer. How? From the cat and the animals? Well, the cat, the animals. She and her husband kicked him out of the home. He was about 14. He was breaking and entering. He was gun running. He had this habit of he would break into people's homes and move their furniture around. Oh. And then he would go outside and like peep and wait for them to come home and look through the windows and watch how freaked out they were. You know, he was he was a budding, budding, budding serial killer. And she told me she said, oh, the FBI thinks Israel first killed in this date. And I know his first kill was much earlier.

2:02:42Whoa. OK. OK. Great. Could you be more specific? Why don't you call the FBI with that information? Well, and he said something like, it became apparent to me at a young age that the things I thought were okay, no one else thought was okay. And like I was different from the others. And it really does go to like, is a serial killer born? Is it, you know, nature, nurture? Right. Do you arrive here in the crib as a little psychopath and no matter what happens, that's what you're going to be? Or do you have to be subjected to some amount of torture and neglect and so on as an infant in order to get there?

2:03:18Do we know the answer to that in his case? It's a tantalizing, philosophical, neurological, behavioral question that hangs over the book. And I spoke to a guy named Roy Hazelwood, who has since died. He was like the godfather of criminal profiling in the FBI. Godfather. And I asked him that and he laughed and he said, I was waiting for how long it was going to take for you to ask me. Everyone wants to know. And he said, we don't know. He said, the youngest incidence of psychopathy I've ever encountered was in a two-year-old. Oh, gosh. Who was self-harming in a sort of psychosexual way. But he said, we don't know.

2:03:59You know, Keese was one of 10 siblings. They all suffered abuse and neglect at the hands of the parents. All of them. Oh, boy. Only one turned out like this. So I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either. I wish we did. Okay, so let's keep going. So he gives that confession about, do we know how many days he had Samantha before he killed her? Oh, he only had her for hours. How did he get the paper that was post the abduction in the photo? I think he had saved it. He had saved it and how he made her look alive. So she was dead in the photo and he made her look alive. Jeff was right. She was dead in that photo.

2:04:34Oh my gosh. So he took, he was an avid outdoorsman, also an ultra marathoner who was hunting in national parks and the like. But he took fishing wire and sewed her eyes open. Oh my gosh. And then put makeup on her. He took his girlfriend's makeup. This is a very sick person. And that was the proof of life photo. Okay. Okay. So at what point did the cops start to glean there's more than one? Oh, once he starts talking about Samantha, they know. The detail, the affect, the flat, matter-of-fact way of communicating this, we're negotiating now. We're demanding the death penalty. We're demanding it's off the table, on the table.

2:05:25This is someone who's very interested in power and control and it's not the first time he's done it. And in fact, Jeff told me that when he and Mickey Dahl first walked into that police station in Lufkin, into that interrogation room, he said the hairs on the back of his neck stood up before they even said a word to him. They knew. They knew. I think that's right. I do think when you're in the presence of true evil, you know it's a different energy. It's just a vibe shift, as the kids say, but it's real. I mean, you'd like to believe that. You'd like to know that when you're around somebody who's truly evil, you'd have that response with the hair, you know?

2:06:00Well, now that totally tracked to me because he's in custody. They know he took Samantha. Jeff knows she's dead in his bones. He knows it. But he was very, very, very good at wearing a mask in real life. I mean, the irony is that where he and his girlfriend lived, it's in a suburb called Turnagin in Anchorage. And it is a neighborhood heavily populated with judges, federal prosecutors, lawyers. And he was the contractor on all of their homes. And so many of the people they interviewed after they apprehended him were like, he had the keys to my house. And when we were away, we'd be like going and do all the renovations.

2:06:42We trusted him. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine finding out that a serial killer had been in your house regularly working on your kitchen. So the next murders that he confessed to, right, are really the only other murders that he owned, correct? That the husband and wife. Fully. Fully owned, yeah. Across the country. In Vermont. So tell us about that couple. This is so wild. And it's also interesting how they got this confession, because they know he's a serial now. They know it. So they're like, okay, you want the death penalty? You got to give us something else. We can't go to the feds and say, you're getting it for one.

2:07:20You have to give us more. And he says, okay. He says, I'll give you two bodies and a name. And he says, I need you to get a map and I need you to pull it up for me. So now we're in Vermont. And he begins with where he dug up his kill kit. So he's got these kill kits buried all over the country. And they're still out there. They're five gallon Home Depot buckets that he filled with cash. He was a bank robber, only used cash when he was committing crimes, zip ties, guns, ammo, and Drano to accelerate human decomposition. Oh my. So then what he would do is he would start walking around and looking for people to take.

2:08:08That's what he called it, taking people. And he was out this night in Vermont. He was on a family trip. Was this after? No, it must have been before. It had to be before because she was his last. She's his last known victim, which is very important. Definitely not his last one.

2:08:28So it's a rainy night. This is his own self-report. He's staying in like a Holiday Inn or something. He goes out and he's looking for someone to take. and he comes upon this apartment complex and this car is pulling in this little like VW bug and he likes this. And this guy gets out and it's raining and he puts his newspaper over his head and he's trying to rush into his apartment complex and Keyes is right behind him unbeknownst to the guy. And the way Keyes described it, his arm went like this behind the guy, like that. Like he just missed him. He was just about to take him. Like reaching forward and missing.

2:09:06And he said that guy has no idea because if he had been like one second slower, he would have gotten it that night. He would have been the one. I mean, he had no victim profile. He would take anybody. And when I say take, he would abduct, rape, torture and murder. And so he was bisexual. He was always like, they call it practicing the parlances like on sex workers, you know. Anyway, so he goes back to his hotel, waits for the rain to stop. Then it's like midnight. he goes back out his own self-report he comes upon this house it's a suburban it's it's like a flat single story he sees in the um yard there is no indication of uh dogs or kids he says i won't go near kids since having my daughter now now you sort of see where he's beginning to realize he's going to be in the pantheon you know he says he doesn't want anybody to know he exists but he does this is the kind of thing the fictional character dexter would say like i'm a serial killer with a code you know yep i don't touch kids give me a gold star he did touch kids um so he decides he's going to cut the phone line to see if an alarm goes off which it does not um he smashes his way in as a contractor he's pretty confident he knows the layout uh there's an there's an older couple living there named Bill and Lorraine Currier.

2:10:29They are older, they are overweight, they are sickly, they have medication. They have a bird in the house. And this was one of the more chilling details that law enforcement told me. When he goes in, they have this huge bird. I forget whether it was a power or something, but the bird cage, which was like six feet, had the cover over it so it could sleep at night. So it's almost like a shroud of death is already there. And he said he, from breaking the window pane on the back door to gain access to the house and tying the two of them up like hog tied on the bed six seconds and and the fbi did it and and they figured out he he did it in six seconds he did he took them from the house took them from the house so strange just ask you because yeah that i saw how they look and yes it tracks exactly with what you said and they look to me helpless.

2:11:21Like even, you know, in their nice picture predating this terrible event, they looked completely helpless, completely harmless. So he still got a Jones from that? He got a Jones from capturing and killing people who posed absolutely no threat or conquest to him? I think in his mind, it was a conquest because it was a strange house. He didn't know how many people would be in. He could guess. It would be two, probably a married couple. But he's breaking into their house in the middle of the night as a stranger, and he's not just going to kill them in their home. He's going to abduct them, and he's going to move them to a second location that he had staked out like a day prior.

2:12:02And nobody saw any of it? Nobody saw a thing. Dead of night. We don't know if they were screaming. I mean, he probably had them gagged. Okay. So he gets them in the car. He moves them to some dilapidated looking like deserted farmhouse falling apart. And then he, he kills them both. He, the husband tried to fight for his wife. He did. He separated them both. He put the husband in the basement tied up. Uh, and then he brought the wife to the second floor and, um, he raped her up there. and then older woman older woman i he he had an issue he had a lot of rage at his mother a lot of rage and this goes into his taking of of people in pairs and mothers and children um and then he brought lorraine no no no then he hears from upstairs bill courier in the basement is making a lot of noise.

2:13:06He's a big guy. He's a former army veteran. He's an army veteran and he's trying to break free and he's shouting for his wife and leave my wife alone and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Keys goes down there and he shoots him dead, shoots him dead. And this angers him because that was not in the plan. He wanted to strangle Bill. He wanted it to be personal. He wanted it to be that violent. And it takes a long time to strangle somebody to death. It's not like in the movies. It takes a long time. It takes a lot of force. So then he's infuriated, but Lorraine has begun to run. She's gotten out of the house, and she's running towards the highway.

2:13:44Again, it's like 3 or 4 in the morning. It's desolate out there. And he catches her. He catches her, and he brings her down to the basement where he shows her, her husband, and then he strangles her to death. Oh, that is sick. And then he leaves them in the basement. He leaves the bodies in the basement. He's running out of time. The sun is coming up. Normally what he would do would be to move the bodies across state lines. So you make it multi-state. You make it very difficult to track. But he's got to go. And he figures this house is a teardown. So anybody who buys this property, it's going to be a developer.

2:14:22They're going to tear down the house and the animals will get to the bodies before any of this even happens. He was right. He was right. Well, I don't know about the animals, but they show that the house gets torn down. It gets dumped in a landfill. No one's walked through and seen two corpses or skeletons. Nope. They went to the landfill, the police, and searched it, trying to find any remnants. Didn't. So their remains have never been found. They're not even classified as murdered. They're classified as missing. Even after a confession? Speaking of which, let's play some of it. Here is Keys admitting to killing Bill and Lorraine Currier.

2:15:05It's not 54.

2:15:28I pulled as fast as I could until the magazine was empty.

2:15:36After he killed Bill, he tells us that he rapes Lorraine Currier. He rapes her multiple times. And he said he took Lorraine downstairs and Bill's obviously deceased on the floor. He describes killing her and then using contractor bags to put their bodies in in the basement of that house. The bodies were completely covered and they were underneath a lot of debris. They were piled on top of them like wood and trash.

2:16:16I mean, just like the callousness is shocking. Not that you expect a killer to like respectfully dispose of the remains, but in garbage bags underneath a bunch of garbage left for the animals. Just like zero, zero humanity in him. Nothing. Nothing. And, you know, with recovering Samantha's remains, you know, he dismembered her and he just put the limbs and the head in the water. and I spoke to the lead on the dive team who led that recovery. Oh, God. And the two divers who recovered Samantha's remains. And the lead diver, the lead, Bobby Chacon, he's retired now. He has PTSD and he has a therapy dog.

2:17:04And he talks about this case because it's instructive for members of law enforcement. They should know about it. but that recovery he said was among the most brutal and they see a lot of things no one should ever see and in fact what they do these these tough tough tough guys bobby sent me um these drawings they did and uh especially after recovering children the dive the divers will often their beautiful drawings will draw images of themselves and and and their they have their all their dive gear on and their helmets on but they have angel wings on and they're always holding the victim intact, bringing them up.

2:17:45But while they're always bringing them out of water, it's also sort of an ascension into a heavenly place of rest, you know, and that's how special, special people who do this work. You think about them, right? It's like when you're doing your job and you have a bad day and you think, oh, this is tough. Oh my gosh. Then you remember how tough actual hardworking people with really difficult jobs have to spend their days. I think about it all the time with child sexual abuse material. And that really does change people. It changes them. Men in particular who have to spend their days chasing the most vile among us, having to look, and they have to look at the images because they've got to go after it.

2:18:27They got to make a case against these people. And I've heard so many on different podcasts and so on, just talking about what it does to you. Like it deadens your soul. Most don't last that long. This is just how can you spend your day doing that? No, I know. Oh. To expose that level of darkness and things that most people would never even think of. Yeah.

2:18:55There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to close that gap. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. So when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it's time to make an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more zeroing in on the one you'll actually end up calling home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get started at Redfin.com. Own the dream. The wrongs we must right. The fights we must win. The future we must secure together for our nation. This is what's in front of us. This determines what's next for all of us.

2:19:46We are Marines. We were made for this.

2:19:56so keys admits to this double murder of bill and lorraine they know he killed samantha and but then a weird thing happens in the interrogation where they want him to say more but he's suddenly coy and now he doesn't want to like give it up and there's a moment in the investigation this is from July of 2012, where he kind of objects to giving them any more. And it's sort of odd. Please explain this to me. It's SOT 60. I just think at this point, I kind of feel like I'm in a position where I've given you a certain amount of information. none of it has, or I shouldn't say none of it, about half of what I thought we had an understanding on, you know, from the very beginning, hasn't worked out in my favor.

2:20:58Granted, you know, some things haven't worked out in your favor, but I just think at this point, I just don't see what incentive I have to tell you anything else. What does he mean? It hasn't worked out in my favor. He wanted the death penalty and he wanted it really fast. How long was this series of interviews? So they started March, April, and they went till about, he really began shutting down, I'm going to say right around there, July, July, August. He, um, he tried to kill himself in prison and it wasn't successful. And so there's so much secrecy surrounding this case. And I have theories as to why it's not just about a federal prosecutor who was too big for his britches.

2:21:51It's not that. Um, but Jeff Bell, Jeff Bell, when he would go over every day to the prison, the jail rather to see they, they didn't have any, anything remotely secure enough for a guy like this. He never should have been up there. He never, he should have been in a super max. Yeah. He went over there every day to see if Israel wanted to talk every day. And he went, so Israel almost escaped from court. Very Ted Bundy. Like remember when Ted Bundy? Yes. Okay. This, this footage has been scrubbed from the internet. Fox had the footage from inside the courtroom. Keys, shackled, ankles, wrists. Samantha's father is in the courtroom.

2:22:32Everyone's in the courtroom. Keys suddenly in the middle of the hearing leaps up out of his chair. He's out of his shackles and he's jumping. Like, what do you call those rows? I think of them as pews from church, but in a courthouse, he's jumping from like benches, top to top to top to top before like he's tased. He's jumped and he's tased. He almost got away. He was tased. He seemed to very much enjoy the tasing. But how did he do it? How did he do it? Well, he took he would get a little baggy lunch every day before going over to court. And he took the cellophane that wrapped the sandwich and he fashioned little keys out of that thing and he used it.

2:23:16Yes. Yes. And so Jeff would go over there and he would be like, stop giving this guy anything, take away his shoelaces. Why does he have subscriptions to magazines like Outside Adventurer? What's going on in here? They could never get an answer. They could never get an answer. He was just so clever. He fooled everybody. That's an advantage, right? When you're a killer who's very smart and you're smarter than your jailers, maybe than the cops, some of them. So notwithstanding his lamentation that he wasn't getting put to death fast enough, He hadn't had a trial or anything. It was, I don't know how he thought the system worked.

2:23:54They were figuring out that he was responsible for more than just those three murders. Absolutely. Absolutely. Go ahead. The other thing that I'm remembering now that was stalling him up, this is like the lawyer in you will appreciate. So his defender, his public defender is this guy named Rich Kirtner, who is a great lawyer, great lawyer. He's also very anti-death penalty. So there's a man who enters this story named Rich Kertner. What's his story? So he's assigned to Keyes the moment Keyes is arrested. He is Keyes' public defender. Okay, Keyes can't afford a lawyer. So he says, because all of his cash is tied up in kill kits all over the United States, you know?

2:24:36So anyway, Rich takes this case and Rich is way into this case. And I talked to Rich at his office in Anchorage and he was like, I really liked Israel. Oh my gosh. I know. Rich, you got to get out more. Seriously, he's like, I liked him. But he would not, the minute he said, I want the death penalty, Rich was like, well, I'm not arguing for that because I'm anti-death penalty and I won't do it. And so now he's got a court appointed lawyer that he can't get out from under who won't advocate for what he wants. And the FBI is trying to get get him what he wants, but it's not moving that quickly. And they can't get any traction anywhere.

2:25:17Okay. But they do figure out it's more than these three. So how did they do that? They asked him, they said, how many people did you kill? They just asked him. And he said, well, less than 12. And Steve Payne always thought that was a weird number. Because most people go by fives and tens, right? Like you round up to a five or a 10. What does that even mean? Like less than 12. That's a great point, right? Like what does that mean? But Steve took it to mean 12, like 11 or 12. And, but I, I talked to people on the case who think it was way more than that. And I definitely think it was way more than that.

2:25:59And do we know who they are? Like you mentioned something in Florida. We know some of them. We know some of the book that I definitely believe are the work of keys. Absolutely. Um, a 12 year old Paralympian in Colville, Washington, where keys lived very, very small town went missing when keys was a very young man. He was like 14 and this girl was 19. Okay. 19. Um, her, her body was later found with her feet, her prosthetic feet were far away from her remains. But she was seen. She knew him. She knew him. She knew him. So it's not true that he didn't kill children, to your point. Absolutely. And there was another 12-year-old girl who was murdered with her mother.

2:26:49And I think that was Keyes as well, in Colville as well. There's a man named Jimmy Tidwell who went missing in Texas after Samantha. was taken while keys was still on the loose um i go into all of the evidence as to jeff bell knows it's jimmy too he won't say it publicly but we talked about it um after the book came out after american predator came out i got an email from a woman who said your book came to me through a circuitous route um i am jimmy tidwell's niece we have never been able to get an answer from either local law enforcement or the FBI, but now we know what happened to him. So thank you.

2:27:30Wow. There is a very famous case I'm obsessed with in Florida called the Boca murders. There was a man in Boca Raton who was targeting women at the mall, upscale luxury mall, broad daylight first victim she is going to her vehicle with her toddler son and she's loading up the back of the car honestly megan after writing this book i don't move through the world the same way at all like i will never my head is on a swivel in like a garage he comes up to her and he's got a gun and he's like get in the back of the car get your kid in the back of the car takes the car starts driving them all never never do it by the way to listening audience never let them take you to a second location and that would qualify as a second location like from the parking lot into your car to go someplace run run run run you have much better chance of surviving he's probably not going to shoot you he's probably not scream the difficult victims they just kind of let him go but i'd rather somebody take a shot at me while i'm serpentining away than have me in the car you know though what the thing is and and he he understood the psychology of this if you are like the home invasion with the couriers you know when you're awoken startled in the middle of the night.

2:28:45And it's like, it takes you a minute to be like, am I awake? Yes. You know, like he's capitalizing on those five seconds of like orienting yourself. Yeah. And so then who's going to believe a stranger's in your house on top, you know? I know. So he's this woman with her little child. Don't comply. He's got his gun in her back. He's like, get in the car. It's like, she probably couldn't even take that minute. Totally. You know, I don't judge her. Oh, I know you're not. But for the people listening. Yeah. No, I don't comply. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And you do it, especially if you have a child with you, you're like, I'll do anything to protect my child.

2:29:16That thing is to run away. That's what that thing is. Yeah. Yeah. So, so they get in the car and he starts driving out and, and all around Boca Raton and she is terrified and her child begins to cry. And she's worried that the crying is going to just infuriate him further. And she just keeps talking to him. She just keeps talking. Samantha tried this too. It was really smart. Humanize yourself. You don't want to be doing this, right? Like we can end this. Like, you know, he does let them go. He lets them go. He drives them back and he lets them go. The other victims weren't so lucky. Another mother and daughter were found in that mall, tied up in their car, zip ties.

2:29:59There was a woman who was also, witnesses saw this happen. This is how she was discovered. She was driving a Jeep. well, a very well-to-do woman, married, middle-aged, and the Jeep just starts going just erratically. It's like slowing down, but it's going erratically. And then the driver's side door opens and she falls out. So that means there's someone in the passenger side who pushed her out of the car. So when the police and FBI arrived at the scene at the mall with the woman and her eight-year-old daughter who were tied up and murdered, they were like, this is as unique as a fingerprint, this MO.

2:30:44And it matches keys. Now, Jane Doe, the woman who survived with her toddler, spoke to Dateline. She has never given her real identity. We have a little bit of that in Sup 55. Let's watch. I put my son in first. I strap him in his car seat. He's in back. Yeah, in the back. then I go to the back of the truck and I put the stroller in shut the gate and start walking to the front mama mama and I could tell if he's worried or scared that's when I look in to see if he's okay and there's a guy sitting there a guy in a floppy hat wrap around shades sitting in her SUV right next to her two-year-old that moment how terrifying is that I was in shock at that moment And I just stood there and the guy said, get in the car.

2:31:31And I was frozen. And when he said, get in the car for the second time, that's when I noticed the gun. The gun is pointed at her son. I see him pull out a pair of handcuffs. He handcuffs my wrists behind my back and he pulls out a bag of zip ties. And he zip ties my ankles together and then zip ties my neck to the headrest. and he takes out a pair of darkened sunglasses with duct tape, I'm guessing, and puts them on my eyes. So now I'm blindfolded. Speak to me of terror. I started losing it and I started choking, choking myself because the zip tie was so tight. I couldn't breathe and gagging and crying and I was just hysterical.

2:32:20zip tied her neck to the headrest that is disconcerting i mean i can't imagine being able to function with any like anything like your full brain power when you're in that position no and actually i had that detail wrong he was in the car he got in the car before she knew and her kid was crying and going mommy mommy um but that that was that was keys's mo and and the sketch that she worked up, they showed a little bit of the police sketch that she worked up of her abductor, her and her child's abductor. It's a dead ringer for Israel Keyes. It's amazing he let her go. Why would he show empathy in that case and none other?

2:32:59It's such a great question. I don't know. I don't know what it was. I don't know if it was the crying child. I don't know if it somehow sparked something in him about his own daughter. but it makes no sense because a couple of months later, another woman with her eight-year-old daughter, he murders. So it doesn't make any sense. This is after he has his own daughter or no? Yeah. Is she around his biological daughter? She is. What's her story? She was raised by her mother on a reservation way up in Neah Bay in Washington State. It's a very, very remote place. And Keys lived there for quite some time.

2:33:45It's real poverty up there. It's real, real poverty. People know who she is and she just lives her own life. You know, she's never sought publicity or anything. I remember I reached out to her mom right before the book came out and I said, you should know this. It's coming out like you might want to remove photos you've got of her on your social media. You know, it'll be easy for people to find her. So she's probably mid-20s now. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. He had his stepson, by the way, who killed himself. That's been omitted completely from the FBI narrative. Killed himself after Keyes was caught. So what happens?

2:34:24Because now they're starting to get what they think is a toll, you know, a number. And then it all comes to an end one day. It all comes to an end one day. Jeff Bell is getting ready to barge into a house and make some arrests and he gets a phone call. It's very early in the morning that Israel Keyes has successfully committed suicide in his cell. And he has left in blood drawings of 11 skulls with the words, we are one. what the FBI did not make public was that he also wrote on the wall of his cell. And I went there. I went to the jail and I went to the cell and I saw exactly where it was. And this was a plexiglass cell.

2:35:11So if you want to tell anybody that he did it in secret, nobody would ever have known. It's impossible. So they knew he was killing himself. Yes. There was video of blood pulling out from under his door for hours. He used a disposable. Yeah, the razor blade from his razor. Well, you know, the warden of the jail told me that he put a sign on Keyes' door that said, do not give this prisoner a razor blade. Wow. And they didn't follow that? It's Keystone Cops. How did they ever get past that? How did they ever get past that? Dick tat. I don't know. But I got... Wow. After the book came out, I spoke to somebody who was impacted me.

2:35:53Wait, wait. You were going to say something that was on the wall. Oh, on the wall. In his own blood, he wrote Belize. The nation. Why? Well, I asked his mom about that. And she said he went to Belize on vacation and he was really struck by the poverty in Belize. And it really, it made him hate America even more and hate the federal government even more. And, you know, he had planned to, he had in his planning, you know, at one point this case in the middle of it, it was reclassified. It went from serial murder to domestic terrorism. and the FBI has never said why. Wow. Well, does that reclass do anything for the FBI's ability to hide the case?

2:36:37I think they're doing exactly what they want to do. You know, there's like 50 ,000 pages. Why would they get to the point where they don't want to disclose it just because they look bad? Because if the numbers climb too high, they look like they're do or know nothings? I don't know, because I think they're, as discussed, like with just a few of those, there are others in the book. Look, there are plenty of cases I believe could easily be ascribed to him. You know, you could say we could close this out with a fair degree of certainty, right? Give surviving family members some peace of mind. He was allowed to join as a volunteer, a volunteer recruit the United States Army, despite not existing on paper.

2:37:15he was raised off the grid by these cultists who belonged to a church a white supremacist church where um they were friends with keys was very good friends with um chevy and shane kehoe who grew up to be on the fbi's 10 most wanted list of domestic terrorists potential ties to timothy mcveigh oklahoma city bombing keys mentions mcveigh in his interrogations with the fbi and And he says, a lot of people I know regard that guy as a hero. Wow. He was a super soldier in the army. His special forces training. I asked for his army records. I got like three pages. And one of those, two of those pages, the interesting things, one is his father died.

2:37:57They have no idea how or what happened to the body. Oh, boy. And they were interrogating the discovery of a skull, a human skull, on the base where Kiesa trained for quite some time. Well, it's no accident he drew skulls with his own blood as his final thing here on Earth. And he drew 11, which is less than 12. And now we only know officially of three. So, yeah, that's the big mystery. Who are the other nine? We just don't know yet. I mean, we have suspicions, but we don't know, and we're probably never going to know, given that you're saying the FBI is kind of clammed up on it. What did his mom say after the fact, after all this was done?

2:38:39So his mother is a member of a cult called the Church of Wells, last I heard in Texas. And she said to me, these interviews were really difficult because there was a lot of proselytizing to get to the point. Oh, boy. Must have loved that. It was hard. But she said one day they were driving somewhere in his Jeep and she knew something was wrong with him. And she said he turned to her and said, you know, mom, not everyone wants to live the way you do. Not all of us want to live the way you do. And then she said she knew her son was guilty of these things. Like when the FBI showed up at her door and they were like, we have your son arrested in connection with the disappearance of this young girl.

2:39:28she was like yeah that sounds about right and jeff bell saw heidi at the courthouse and he said she looked like someone out of little house on the prairie like the long dress and like the handmade thing and like the long braid and he went up to her and he said please can you help us your son won't talk there's a missing girl they didn't know if she was dead yet i mean they knew but and she said to jeff if the lord wants that girl to be found that girl will be found and turned her back and walked away okay this is what we're dealing with this is what we're dealing with So as you look back on the case now, it's been a couple of years since you wrote the book, like where does he fall in the pantheon of American serial killers?

2:40:09Well, you know, the FBI said they'd never seen one like him before. And I think that's why his case remains so little known. They know more than they're telling, but not nearly as much as I think we think they do. they have something called the evil minds research museum the fbi does what yeah i tried to get in there they really wouldn't let me in they let david fincher in for mind hunter but they wouldn't let me in who is this pest who keeps subpoena knock knock but they they they have there they have the brains of serial killers they have um artifacts they have a lot of keys of stuff like his journals his own self-reports um they have also when they were gonna let me in they were like don't publicize this but screw them they have like a big stuffed hannibal lecter in like a a prison cell like you know in the middle of the movie like for fun senator comes in yeah that's like that's their idea of kicks oh my god yeah this is like at where quantico adjacent oh wow yeah it's like off the side of the highway like it's an unmarked building but it's a real thing so like agents are supposed to go there to learn or like the the the academics i guess at quantica or they are in there trying to figure out the the origins of psychopathy to this degree well i'm glad they're studying it i mean it sounds like to me they'd be better off reading your book but yeah they should give it a shot yeah that's that's helpful well i can't believe i didn't know i mean i am obsessed with true crime i feel like i listen to all of them and i've never heard his name before and my dear friend wrote the book on him so it's like i i mean i'm i was gonna say thrilled to know but That's not the right word.

2:41:46I'm fascinated because they're all so different. And this guy is so bizarre where there's not an MO. There's not like a typical victim. There's not a geographic tie. Just so bizarre. I don't, it doesn't make me, it's somewhat unsettling, right? Because you want to believe there'll always be that and that'll make them easier to catch. But the thing is, is like the more we learn from this one, you know, Keyes said, he was asked, who is your favorite serial killer? They thought they would get something, right? And he said, it's the one who hasn't been caught. Because he knew that there was someone better at being undetected right behind him.

2:42:20And I'll tell you this, Megan. When the Idaho College murder story broke and before we knew who did it, I was convinced that whoever did it had studied the case of Israel Keyes. Definitely could be. I mean, he was a criminologist. He was a criminologist. It was like he had Washington State connections, but he crossed state lines to do it. A lot of them do. Washington State is another one. It is. So is Iowa. So is Long Island. Yes. I know. As much as you think it would be like New York or Chicago or Baltimore, they have different kinds of murders, but it's not really serial killer central. They're much more dispersed than that.

2:43:03Yeah, the serial killer thing, although I will say just a note of comfort for the audience since it's the holidays. um cece moore the great genetic genealogist woman who like catches everybody speaking of brian kohlberger um she told me she doesn't believe you can have a serial killer in 2025 america she's like we've gotten too good touch the touch dna that they like it's no longer they don't need a fingerprint they don't need blood or semen or bodily fluids it's like touch DNA. Look how Kohlberger kind of got caught. Touch DNA on the knife sheath, which yes, then he left behind. But like that touch DNA 10, 15, 20 years ago would have been meaningless.

2:43:46They wouldn't have been able to find that. That would have been nothing if it wasn't like a bodily fluid that you could see in like bag, forget it. Now they know to look for it. And that touch DNA, they didn't have a hit. They had to be the genetic genealogy. They went, they got like some hit to somebody, some distant relative of Kohlberger, which they then traced back to the dad of Kohlberger. And then they start using her skills to figure out who's around this dad who could be potentially in Idaho on this night. And then they quickly got to Brian. But anyway, she doesn't think that you can have a serial killer in 2025 America, which makes me feel better.

2:44:20The only, I would say my caveat to that would be if you look at the Gilgo Beach killer who was active for many, many, many, many years, it's the victim. It's just as important, right he was he was targeting sex workers and they don't stay on sex worker cases for very long you know so i i guess if you're if you're if you're a predator and you know your prey that's that would be my one thing where i'd maybe push back on that yeah you're going to like the victims no one cares about exactly that society regards as kind of disposable well i was trying to leave it on an up note but i'm sorry i don't think we're gonna be able to now i'm not well Well, the book is fun to read and there's, oh, and they're great.

2:44:59I didn't see the 11 skulls, but I hear it's great. The Keys case is fascinating. I was amazed you found the Dateline footage because I was trying to find it while doing the book and I couldn't find the footage. Yeah. My crack team found that. So good. It was, I mean, the whole case is dark, but fascinating. You know, it's like sometimes the serial killer stuff is too much for me. Like I can't take any torture stories, but we think we did a good job today. of skimming over some of the more disturbing parts of this guy because you can go deep and you can go way darker on him even than we did. And that's our silver lining.

2:45:35I like it. You could have gone worse. It could have been worse. We say nothing says Christmas like true crime.

2:45:43So look, I think the reason so many people are drawn to true crime is because it takes your mind off of your own problems. You cannot be thinking about whatever thing is stressing you when you are thinking about something like this. there's something soothing about solving it, you know, like justice. I think there's a good contingent of us who that really feels validated when justice comes to bad guys. It makes you believe again in the world, you know, like people aren't all going to get away with it. Mother effers. And that will conclude the things of positive things. I have to say the list. Love you.

2:46:15I love you. Oh, happy holidays. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. All of it, lady. Great to see you. Great to see you.

2:46:26There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to close that gap. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. So when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it's time to make an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more zeroing in on the one you'll actually end up calling home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. The wrongs we must right. The fights we must win. The future we must secure together for our nation. This is what's in front of us. This determines what's next for all of us.

2:47:17We are Marines. We were made for this.

2:47:28We have a fascinating program for you today. One filled with crime, murder, money, and betrayal. Today we're talking to one of the most infamous mobsters in American history, Salvatore Gravano, otherwise known as Sammy the Bull. To understand his story, we have to take a step back in time to the early 1970s when the Godfather hit the big screen and changed the perception of the mafia in America. You spend time with your family? Sure I do. Good. Because a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man. You look terrible. I want you to eat. I want you to rest well, and a month from now, this Hollywood big shot's going to give you what you want.

2:48:14It's too late. They start shooting in a week. I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse.

2:48:23At about that same time, Gravano, a kid who grew up without mob connections in his family, slowly eased into La Cosa Nostra and made his first kill. Over the course of the next two decades, Sammy the Bull would rise up the ranks of New York's notorious Gambino crime family, raking in millions upon millions of dollars and repeatedly killing. He is admitted to 19 murders in all, including his own brother-in-law, his best friend, and the Gambino family mob boss, Paul Castellano, in 1985. Deadly messages from organized crime to organized crime and the rest of society. The murder of Gambino crime family boss, Paul Castellano, yesterday, or the 1979 assassination of Cosa Nostradon, Carmine Galenti.

2:49:11unsolved very public executions by an underworld that plays by their own rules and their own code of justice the castellano murder particularly brazen and defiant since castellano was gunned down a day before he was to resume standing trial for auto theft and murder organized crime had served up its own sentence by the late 1980s the new don john gotty had named sammy the bull his right-hand man. Gotti himself was a ruthless mobster and media darling who dressed in expensive suits and enjoyed the finer things in life, earning him the nickname the Dapper Don. He also repeatedly escaped conviction with, as it would turn out, Sammy's help, which we'll get to, earning him another nickname, the Teflon Don.

2:50:01Remember how they use that about Donald Trump? It was first about John Gotti. But in 1991, everything changed. John Gotti and Sammy the Bull were behind bars facing a slew of charges when Sammy decided to flip and do the unthinkable, cooperate with the feds. At the time, he was the highest ranking gangster to break his blood oath, earning him the ire of mob aficionados who dubbed him a rat. Not since Joe Valacci in the 60s has such a high-ranking member of the mob turned traitor. Sammy the Bull Gravano now joins the ranks of those who have broken the cardinal rule of the mafia. Omerta, the code of silence.

2:50:44Sammy's testimony helped send John Gotti away for good. The Teflon is gone, the Don is covered with Velcro, and every charge in the indictment stuck. and resulted in dozens of other mobsters going to prison as well. One top FBI agent says that testimony by Sammy led to the demise of organized crime in New York. Since then, there have been numerous books and movies made about the Gambino crime family. And while some may still consider Sammy a, quote, rat, hundreds of thousands of people are curious fans of his. subscribing to his podcast launched right around the time our own did called Our Thing, which is what Cosa Nostra means.

2:51:31In fact, his YouTube channel alone has more than 77 million views. Sammy the Bull Gravano, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure. So let me start with this. After that background, how are you still upright? How are you still walking around on two feet? Well, the mafia changed quite a bit. It doesn't do certain things. And people understand the story, what happened. That word rat, I mean, they use that. They do that all the time. But in my case, I was offered that position to cooperate a bunch of times. I was arrested all my life. I never cooperated.

2:52:22I was facing life in a number of different cases. But when it came to John Gotti, I was arrested in 1991 with him. And after 11 months, the worst 11 months I've ever done in prison, I've been in prison 22 years. of my life, but he wanted me to take the weight so he can go free. He was going to back up the tapes that the government had. And most of those tapes were all lies about me killing union people and taking over or killing my partners and taking over. None of that was true. But he thought that he would have the lawyers back up those tapes and turn around in a way to say, well, you hear John complaining about him.

2:53:17It's not John.

2:53:27would be set free and i would go to prison he had the balls to actually tell me this to my face and um that's when i walked away from him the mafia and whatever would happen would happen i wasn't afraid of it now i understand well and let me just jump in because uh we'll get to that in detail in just a bit. And what you're basically saying is that you felt he was going to sell you up the river and you sold him up the river first. But is that why you don't think anybody has tried to seek retribution? I mean, I understand there's been at least one attempt on your life since your testimony against him, allegedly by a family member of John Gotti's.

2:54:10But is that it? Because you did witness protection, you did all that. I can't imagine Nobody else has tried to come get you. Well, there was a team that came down when John Gotti was away. Peter Gotti, his brother, became the boss. He put together a team to come down and kill me. They found me. They were afraid to even come near me. And they were. They devised all kinds of plans, a bomb. Then this thing that spins around and shoots shotgun shells and that didn't work. Nothing worked. And I got arrested again in. In 2000, February of 2000, and it didn't get done. When I got arrested, I had in my apartment, I had five guns, four guns planted in different places.

2:55:12in my kitchen, in my bathroom, my living room, I expected them to come down. And I had one on me all the time. I was actually waiting for it to happen. And they worked with me. These were people. Some people were my crew. One of them was my brother-in-law, Eddie Garofola.

2:55:37And they knew me and they knew I wouldn't run from it. And they were cowards. They didn't make the move. They were afraid to make the move. And once I went in prison again, that part of it was over. So there was an attempt.

2:56:01Excuse me. They found me, but it didn't work out for them. It worked out for me. As I said, you're doing a podcast now and so on. Are you at all in hiding? I mean, is it something that do you need to keep your whereabouts unknown? No, I think the whole country knows where I am. I'm not in hiding. Listen, I went into the witness protection program. I didn't want to go into the program. I had money. I didn't want to go in. I did only five years on my first hit, my first pinch. And the government begged me to go in that they would look terrible if I refused and didn't go in. And we had meetings and they said, you know, you got a great sentence.

2:56:50Give us something. Come into the program. I agreed to go into the program for a year. I did eight months in the program. Something came up. A woman recognized me and they wanted me to start over again. I said, no, I'm not starting over again. I promised a year. I'll give you a year. There's four more months. It didn't. They wanted to start over. And I quit and walked away. I went to Phoenix where my family was. And I stayed there for about another four and a half years before I got busted again. since I got out I got out in 2017 this all started my wife my daughter did a book I did a book when I got out in 96 and she wanted to do a book we couldn't sell the book and then somebody came to her about a podcast and she said would you work for me and because we're divorced and give me the right to use you to do a podcast.

2:57:55And I said, of course, I'll help you. And that's how I started. A year after that, or maybe a little bit more than a year, two years after that, my son put me on Facebook. A little while after that, he put me on YouTube. Unbeknownst to me, I didn't even know it. My phone, I was getting all kinds of calls. And my son left one day and said, I put you on Facebook. I put you on YouTube. And that's what the calls were about. So I just stayed on that. And I continued the podcast on that. And it grew to big numbers. I'm almost at a half a million subscribers. And I got 77, 78 million views. And now I'm doing a whole bunch of other things.

2:58:46And a lot of I was reading and preparing for this. A lot of men and women in law enforcement, in particular, FBI agents watch and listen to the podcast and the YouTube show because they say it's fascinating. fascinating. They've never been able to get this sort of an insight into a real life mobsters thinking. And you talk openly about the crimes that were committed by yourself, by others. A lot of these guys who were covering you or on you back then are listening, thinking, oh, my God, this is helping me put things together. So it's just the all around you. Obviously, you have immunity now for those crimes, given the deal you struck with the government.

2:59:23But it's a fascinating thing to think about the FBI agents who once tracked you and guys you worked with now listening to you and are fans of the show. I mean, actually fans of the show. So let me pause you there and let's go back. Let's start with you as a kid, because as I mentioned in the intro, you were not raised in a family where your dad was in the mob and your granddad was in the mob. This was not foretold. As I understand it, your dad was fairly successful. You had a nice family and you had some difficulties as a child, but it wasn't related to anything in terms of crime or the mob? No, my mother and father were totally legitimate.

3:00:05My mother was a seamstress. My father was a painter. He got back then they used to use lead in paint, got lead poisoning, had to stay away from painting. My mother got an offer from a Jewish contractor. She would go and make the clothes, women's clothes. And the guy told her, Katie, you're great. Open up a little factory and I'll get you work. If you could produce, you know, the quality of work that you do, uh, we'll give you our work. And that's exactly what she did. My father jumped in with her to help her and they worked together. They had a dress factory and, uh, that's what they did. I had two sisters.

3:00:50Um, neither one of them had anything to do with the mafia boyfriends or anything. One of my brother-in-laws was an engineer. The other brother-in-law was a plumbing contractor. Later on, he came in the mafia with me and he became a made member. But before that, before I was in the mafia, I had no relation to the mafia whatsoever. But in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, it was saturated with the mafia. So it was on every street corner. It was around as a kid growing up, I was dyslexic. I didn't do good in school. I got left back in the fourth grade, the seventh grade. I had nothing but problems in school.

3:01:32I got thrown out. I never got past the eighth grade. And I was in a gang and we stayed away from the mafia. We knew who they were. We knew they were dangerous. So we stayed away from them. It was us against the world. And we didn't want nothing to do with the mafia. and at 19 years old I got drafted and I went into the military during the Vietnam War. I spent two years there and when you were drafted you got two years if you join you had to do three. I did two. I came out and went right back into a gang. Can I just ask you about why? Why? Because I would think I would like to think that a couple years in the army would instill a moral code in you that would give you some pause about going back into a life of crime.

3:02:26Well, it wasn't into a life of crime. It was back into being in the gang. I mean, that's what I knew. The only thing I knew, I was taught how to kill and how to do things in the military. And I would have killed people to protect the country. They gave us that bullshit that communism was coming here. They're going to rape your mother, your sisters. And so I was brainwashed a little bit by the government. I mean, I never met a bad Vietnamese person. The only people I know who are Vietnamese do my nails or my toenails and they just seem to be nice people. I've never met Vietnamese people in prison, so maybe they're good crooks.

3:03:06So I think the whole thing was bullshit. So I went right back into the into a gang. But unbeknownst to me, while the two years I was gone, most of my friends hooked up with different mafia families and they were hooked up with somebody. One of my friends, Tommy Spiro, said, my uncle wants to talk to you. His name was Shorty Spiro. He was in a notorious crew, Carmine Persico. There was a war going on at that time between the Gallows and the Profaci. And there was different sides. The war stopped for a while. So when I got hooked up with them, there was no war going on. I knew sooner or later they kill people that I would be called.

3:03:56That's where I did my first murder. It's a long story. I would tell you if you want to hear it. But I did my first piece of work there. And then Shorty at that after that had told me, Sammy, go get your clothes. Joe Gallo had come out of Crazy Joe Gallo came out of prison He said go get your clothes We're going to hit the mattresses I didn't even know what that meant back then It wasn't a million movies And he said They're a pack of wolves We're a pack of wolves We're going to live together If you have a girlfriend get rid of her If you got a job stop You're going to live with us 24 hours a day Seven days a week And we're going to hunt them They're going to hunt us and that's what you have to do from this point on.

3:04:46And that's the beginnings of your time in organized crime. That wasn't just the gang. That was one of the five New York crime families. Yes, it became the Colombo. It was a Profachi family. Profachi died and they made Joe Colombo the boss. So when I got in, Joe Colombo was the boss. My first hit was ordered from Joe Colombo to Carmine Persico to Shorty. to me. And it was somebody in our crew who was plotting to kill Shorty and me. And his wife was having an affair with Shorty's nephew. And he devised a plot to kill Shorty and me to cause confusion. A couple of months later, six months later, he would kill Tommy Spiro.

3:05:38He went to somebody, Frankie, who was in the crew and asked for his help. Frankie, instead of helping him, went to Shorty and told him about the plot. That's how the whole thing happened. Now, just to take a step back, you mentioned you had dyslexia as a kid and you didn't make it past the eighth grade. And I know that there were some bullies in your life as well. And one of those incidents led to your nickname, Sammy the Bull. They tried to steal your bike. You didn't let it go peacefully you were scrappy and these mobsters saw you fighting and said look at this kid you know and they nicknamed you sammy the bull now right jumping forward now to this point you may have stood up to bullies but you you didn't go to vietnam when you were serving in 1964 so you you hadn't killed anybody whether in a military uniform or otherwise at this point so when they say to you, you're going to kill this guy.

3:06:33Is it, you know, is it, is it scary? Is it frightening? Is it daunting? Or is it all business at that point, even as a young man at this point? Well, it was scary. I had a couple of incidents that were scary that I was going to would have used the gun. I never did. But when that came, I knew it would come sooner or later. So the story, I heard the story, what it was. I thought I was being bullshitted a little bit, you know, that the guy wanted to kill me. I couldn't understand why he wanted to kill me. I had nothing to do with his wife and an affair. But he had this stupid little plot, like I just said.

3:07:18And when they gave me the order, they said, who do you want to come with you? And I said, your nephew, Tommy Spiro. he created this monster and then I wanted the guy Frankie because I couldn't understand why he didn't tell me and I wanted to be able to talk to him about that so they put those two people on the hit with me and you know I watched a movie one time and it's a person who was about to kill and he was sweating and scared and all of this stuff I thought that's what happens to you before you commit this kind of a crime Because I never thought about killing people. But I went through with it.

3:08:03We did it. One night, we went out to half-hour clubs. We got in the car about four o 'clock in the morning. And as we drove away, I shot him in the back of the head. Twice. You were in the back of the car? I was in the back seat. Where was he? He was in the front seat, the passenger seat. and when we went to a spot we went out of the neighborhood we pulled into like a nice community it was miles away from Brooklyn Rockaway and they had nice homes with lawns and it was quiet we drove over there I took them I picked them up out of the car and I put them on the street, the sidewalk. I got in the car.

3:08:58I opened the window, put the gun out, and I shot him three more times. We got back. We went to the neighborhood. We cleaned the car, got rid of the gun. And we were living together, a bunch of guys. I went and take a shower. I stayed in the shower quite a long time. The water running on me, and I was waiting for this thing to happen, and being nervous and sweating, and it didn't happen. Nothing happened. And I went to bed. I slept like a baby. I got up the next morning. There was confusion. Some of the young girls were still with us. Oh, my God, they killed Joe Colucci and Rockaway. And I remember asking one of the girls, did they know who did it?

3:09:45Did they find out who did it? She said, no, it's in the papers already, but it's not in the papers. I don't know if they caught the people or what. And I remember we all went to the corner where we stay. And I had like an out-of-body experience that I felt like I was above somewhere, looking down and listening to all of them talking. And I felt absolutely nothing. And then Shorty came with his nephew Tommy Spiro, and I came back to reality. And they said, Carmine Persico wants to talk to you. So we got in the car and we went down there. But that was the then boss. Excuse me? Carmine Persico at that point was that family's boss?

3:10:44No, he was a captain, but a very, very powerful captain. He was leading the war against the gallows. And so I went down and met with him. I was told not to talk. I didn't talk. Tommy Spiro explained the whole situation, what happened in detail. He grabbed me, hugged me, kissed me on the cheek, and he told me, great job. So, and I didn't feel anything. I went to the funeral and I didn't feel any remorse. I didn't feel anything. And I thought that was peculiar. I thought either something's wrong with me or I'm just a stone cold killer and I'm going to fit in the mafia perfectly. And I guess I what I when I became not a stone cold killer.

3:11:37I was good at what I did. I was good at what I did in a lot of ways in construction, running unions, but I was also becoming a professional hit guy. Had you ever been a man of faith prior to that? Had you ever gone to church? Did you have any relationship with God? No, of course. I still I believe in God. I don't. I went to church as a kid. I stopped going to church. I believe, you know, in prison, I joined the Indians because I wanted to smoke and and you have to join their religion. And they allow that in prison, in the federal prison. So I joined them. I went in to get tobacco. You weren't allowed to smoke from 2004.

3:12:27I went in really wanted to smoke and steal some tobacco and bring it to myself. But I got to understand their religion, the way they believe in God. I also, at one point, a friend of mine grabbed me and said, Sammy, you're not an Indian. We do Wicca. Why don't you join our group? And I did. I joined their group as well. So I started to understand different religions. And everybody seems to believe in God. They're just a path. What path do you want to take to get to God? Indians have it, Wicca has it Muslims have it, Jews have it Catholics have it, Christians have it, it's just a path and I believe most of it Was there a moment back then when you're talking about being in the shower and no remorse, I wonder whether there was any moment of no matter what I feel I recognize I've crossed over I've done something, I've sinned in the most profound way possible and at some point there will be a price to pay No.

3:13:33No, I don't look at it that way. I never felt that way. I still don't think that way. I think that God makes people, creates people, and he creates lions and he creates lambs. I think I'm a lion. And whatever you have to pay, if you have to pay anything, why would he create a lion? if there was a God and he was interested in what was going on why do little kids get cancer and die why do little kids get raped why do so many things happen and talking about religions I mean I was a Catholic brought up that way baptized communion confirmation till I found out what priests do and I had no intention of committing or my crimes to talk to him.

3:14:27I was asked that once by a priest and I told him, yeah, you want me to tell you my, what I do? Tell me what you do. And then I'll talk to you about what I do. So I don't believe in religion. I believe in God, but I think religion is bullshit. I think it's the, it's all about money. It's all about different things. They commit evil things to good people. So, you know, I'm away from religions. I respected the Indian religion, the Wicca religion. It stunned me. It's the only religion that they put a woman above God. The goddess of the moon, the water and the earth. God is the God of the forest and the mountains.

3:15:16Why do they put, I asked, a woman above God? Because she creates life. she needs a man's seed but she in her womb takes care of life and then gives birth and creates life i understand that i'm somebody with common sense if you make sense to me in a certain way i understand it so i understood that religion now a lot of people will not be happy with me saying this but they of course it's a it's a they call it a pagan religion they call it all kinds of things it was before the christianity even and um i understand that part about a woman giving birth and creating life well i mean i've i've i've read that unlike some i uh in the mob you you were very you were a family man in the midst of all this you went home and had dinner with your wife and your two kids each night.

3:16:21Your daughter, Karen, has talked about that publicly many times. And so there has been this respect for your family members, for your wife, for your daughter, in a way that even the people who were in the mob said, for example, John Gotti would go out carousing with other women after hours, and you would go home to your family. That piece of your commitment of your life, you honored, despite what was happening on the other front. And I know that you don't see these as real, as murders, you know, in the same way a soldier doesn't commit a murder when he kills somebody. This is how an FBI agent explained it in one public interview, that a soldier would not be murdering.

3:16:59You don't see your kills as murders because there was a code behind them because you say the people you killed had sort of agreed to live by this code and die by this code. and on that on that note that heavy note let me pause it okay because i want to get into that next and that's a that's a whole other chapter for us so stand by let me squeeze in a commercial break and much much more with sammy the bull gravano as he stays with us for the whole show fascinating story to tell so sammy it was actually a quote that i was reading uh not from an fbi agent it was from Terrence Winter, who the audience may know as the executive producer of The Sopranos, and he also did Boardwalk Empire.

3:17:42And he took part in a documentary about you and said the following, many mobsters consider what they do almost military in nature. They consider themselves soldiers. So they rationalize a lot of really bad behavior. You wouldn't think about calling a soldier at war a murderer. So therefore, if they're a soldier and they're at war, they're not murderers either. They're just doing their job. Does that capture the mentality? I believe so. I, a hundred percent, you know, I watched the program one time during world war two, we dropped an atom bomb, an atomic bomb, an atom bomb twice, not once, twice, but I saw the guy who was in the plane and over Hiroshima or somewhere and he pressed the button and it killed a hundred thousand people, men, women, and children in a split second.

3:18:43And they were patting him on the back that he did a great job. The war was ended early because of those things. And if I was talking to the guy, I would say, listen, you did a great job. Great military guy. You fought for the country. you did what you were supposed to do how do you feel now knowing you just killed a hundred thousand people men women and children does that bother you at all and i'm sure he would tell me no because he was fighting for the country he was fighting for what he thought was right in the mafia it's part of it's not a gang no more it's part of my heritage it came from italy Sicily it started in Sicily and it came to this country so it's part of my heritage so it's not just a gang killing in a gang or doing certain things for a drug is a different thing but this is a soldier it was explained to me I was involved in the Johnny Keys hit it was a major major hit and it was he was a guy who had 50 hits under his belt and me and him were going to go at each other.

3:20:04And it was explained to me that we were like two Samurais. Now, I understand a samurai is a different thing than us. They're actually more violent than us. But I really felt that way. That we were two Samurais who met on the battlefield. what about can i let me ask you a couple follow-ups on that so obviously when we when we dropped the bomb at the end of world war ii they estimated that we saved somewhere upwards of 25 30 million lives by by putting an end to world war ii when the japanese would not surrender and and so you know i'm not defending the the killing of a hundred thousand people exactly but in a way i am because it was the right decision it saved far more lives than it actually cost But in the in the mafia, and I can get it if the guy let me let me answer your question.

3:20:58Let me answer that question. The people who say that it saved 25 to 30 million lives was who the government? Of course, they're going to say that. I mean, independent analysts to take a look at who have taken a look at this ad nauseum since the end of World War Two will tell you that the the lives saved far, far outnumbered the lives cost. doesn't make it not controversial. But you can't talk about it without adding that perspective. But I mean, the thing about the mafia, and I can understand if a guy was going to kill you, I mean, even the law recognizes maybe not exactly the way that you would do it, but what recognizes a right to self-defense.

3:21:40But, you know, it seems like it was a whole criminal justice system that you guys agreed to, where, you know, you sleep with the guy's wife, you could get whacked. You interfere with my business, you could get whacked. It basically is just whatever the head of the crime family wants. And the guy doesn't show up like a samurai face to face in a meeting where you fight it out to the death. He just gets in the car with you. He gets whacked in the back of the head. So I'm interested in the moral, you know, the way you thought about those kind of differences morally. Well, morally, I don't know if it's to me, if it makes a difference, if you kill somebody on a battlefield or you kill somebody in the car or whether you use a gun or whether you use a knife or whether you use poison, that is that you just took a life.

3:22:28it doesn't matter how you take it. You can beat somebody to death. You can fight. You can win a fight. You can go overboard and just beat this person to death. So you just took a life. No matter how it is, whether it's more gory about or more. The means. Okay, you're talking about the means. Yeah, the means of how you're doing it. I don't know if it makes any difference. Now they want to take guns away from everybody because there's a shooting. I mean, if there's not a shooting, you want to take guns away from everybody. You get some sicko. So he goes in with a bomb and he blows half the school up and he kills more people, actually, than he using a gun.

3:23:11Does that make you happy that you didn't have a gun? So I don't think the means of what you use is that important. You're taking a life, whatever it is, whatever your reason is, whatever the senses look at later on, you're taking a life, whether it's on a battlefield, in the street, no matter how you do it or what you do, you're taking a life, bottom line. But we have excuses for what, how you do it. If me and him were in a battlefield in the street, we, like years ago, and we back up and we pull out a gun from the side and we both shoot at each other, you're taking a life. What's the difference?

3:23:53How you do it? That is dead. My brother-in-law had a good saying. You get hit by a car and you're all crunched up, bleeding or your bones are busted up and you're dying. how would you feel if the person ran over and said it's me, Sammy he didn't do it on purpose, it's an accident, doesn't it make a difference to me if it's an accident or it's on purpose I'm all crushed up, I'm in tremendous pain, I'm about to die death is death

3:24:31that ignores the moral code, I mean I agree with you in terms of you die by a knife, you die by a gun, it doesn't make much of a difference to you. But we're expanding beyond that, too. The law recognizes some killings as justified. It would not recognize any of the ones that you're talking about as justified. And I think you know that. It's just what you're saying is that in the mafia, you live by a different code of justice. And as I understand it, your position is that you wouldn't run around killing what you call legitimate people. It's, you know, if somebody pissed you off in your social life, he wouldn't be at risk of getting whacked.

3:25:12You only, for the most part, and we'll get to one of the exceptions I know about, but it sounds like it may have been an accident. But for the most part, you only went after people who were part of your world and who had agreed to live and die by this code. Right, exactly. I never killed a woman or a child And I never killed even a legitimate guy Who I didn't get along with or whatever I mean, I had fights, but that's as far as that would go I'm not going to kill somebody because I don't like what he said Or something like that We're not complete lunatics Some of us became lunatics But I never went to that degree I lived by this code and I was willing to die by the code.

3:26:01I told my family when I cooperated, we talked about cooperating. When I cooperated, I said, if somebody comes down and kills me, don't even be mad. Don't say nothing. Don't do anything. Don't be mad. I broke the code. I understood that I could die for what I was doing. If I could understand it, you understand it. Leave it alone. So I believe in that code, just like I believe in God, but I don't believe in certain religions, probably most religions. But you've got to live by something. And I live by what I was taught by my mother and my father, the legitimate. And a lot of people would say I was a different kind of gangsters.

3:26:44You talked about the law enforcement. I'm still friends with agents, NYPD cops till today, because they were different. We got along. We were friends. They had one life. I had another life. We understood each other. And I was basically a different kind of a gangster. I cared about people. I'm a people's person, basically. My ex-wife and my daughter or my son would say, Dad, you talk to everybody. Yeah. They're human beings. I talk to people. I love people. I like hardworking people. But what about Alan Kaiser? This was a 16 year old boy who you killed. And I understand your defense was accidental.

3:27:30No, no, it was. It's not accidental. And I didn't kill him. First of all, it was a gang who came and they actually did movies about this. So our after our club bikers and I went to that place. I wound up getting a beating. I got jumped by six, seven guys. My ankle was broke on both sides. I had a cast from my knee down and I had permission to go after this guy. And it wasn't Alan Kaiser. So I'll tell you what happened. We got in the car and we were looking for him. One night we saw him pull up in front of a house. A different guy. Aldo Candido. Yes. Yes. And I said, that's him. We went back to our club.

3:28:16We got guns. we got a shotgun now it was supposed to be loaded with double o buck which would put down a moose but they were using it for pigeons and playing around with it it was it was a bird bird shot so anyway louis malino had it i said pull up to the car when you see him coming out of that house where the car was double parked stop ask him for directions like we're lost i was laying down in the back seat with a cast on my leg. There was a driver and Louie Molina was in the passenger seat. I said, when he gets to the car to answer you, I'll shoot him in the face.

3:28:59Louie Molina rolled down the window when he came out. And he must have been told the night before that what they did was to a maid guy, me. And he knew he was in trouble. so as soon as he Louis asked him for directions he started to run Louis jumped out of the car threw a shot at him hit him in the back he kept running didn't put him down he kept running this kid Alan Kaiser and I spoke to the family and everybody about this he was 16 we didn't know he was 16 he wasn't a target wasn't in the hit wasn't supposed to get it no accident he ran at Louie Molito. He might have been part of that gang.

3:29:45I don't know. The driver yelled to Louie Molito, guy coming at you. He turned around with the shotgun inches away from the guy and shot him in the chest. When he went down, he put the shotgun to his head, pulled the trigger again and killed him. We found out the next day that he was 16 years old. We were in shock. it was terrible 16 the number itself shock you but why did he run it louie molito why did he do that he wasn't the target nobody was shooting at him he could have ran back at his house he could have went the other way he could have just stood there and never got touched so now whether he was on drugs whether he was part of the gang i don't know you hear stories just for the record his family says he was not a gangster quote he was just an innocent kid walking home no no not a gangster he's 16 years old he definitely wasn't a gangster he could have been a gang member or he knew this guy because the guy was in his house so they the family can't deny that that guy went in his house they were together he came out he the other guy came to the car and he was on the side.

3:31:02Nobody was going to shoot him. And the family recognizes that, too. I talked with the sister and she said, I don't know what made him do that. Now, people will say that I killed a 16 year old kid. First of all, I didn't shoot him. Louie did. But it doesn't matter. If I could have shot him, I would have. I'm not trying to make myself a good guy. I didn't shoot him. But the police found him exactly where it was in the street where he got to. He came off the sidewalk into the street after Louie. Not on the sidewalk with his books coming home from school, like you hear some stories. None of that's true.

3:31:43Now, it was a shame. We were sick about that he was 16 years old, and we were confused why he even did that. And he wasn't a target of the hit. We weren't even looking at him. But what would you expect? what I expect Louis to do? The guy is actually a foot away from him. What is he supposed to do? Just stand there and wait for the guy to grab him and tackle him to the ground or do something? He's on a hit. Obviously, this is why we don't choose a life of crime. This is why we don't go to murder people in neighborhoods and take the law into our own hands and why the law prohibits it because bad things can happen and that's why there's something called felony murder.

3:32:25You're in the process of committing one felony and you accidentally or otherwise commit another murder, you're going to be charged for it, even if it was an accident in the course of the felony, because the law recognizes creating extremely dangerous situations. Absolutely. And I'm charged with it because I'm part of the murder, not the shooter. And he wasn't the target, but I still get charged with it. And I understand that. That's why it's on my list of 19 people that he's there. I mean, and I get it, but I did give a courtesy to the family. they talked to my daughter they talked with my son and they wanted to talk with me and i did talk with them i took the time to explain what happened and why nobody wanted to kill this kid they understood that i don't know what they told you or told anybody else and i know that the goddies instigated these people saying that i killed their son or their brother 16 years old I'm a baby killer.

3:33:25That was brought up by the Gottis who were trying to make me look bad or make it look worse. And I know how it was brought up. And like I said, this was talked about with the families. The whole thing was talked about with the police. And it's not I'm not saying it was a good thing. It was a horrible thing. But it's one of those things that happen. I mean, if I see a murder, I think I'm a pretty tough guy. I see somebody shooting at somebody. I'm not going to run at the shooter. He's got a gun. I got it. I got it. I got it. Let me pause you there. Let me let me squeeze in one more break. And we'll be right back.

3:34:03Much more to the story with Sammy the Bull Gravano as we continue right after this. There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to close that gap. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. so when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it's time to make an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more zeroing in on the one you'll actually end up calling home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. The wrongs we must right. The fights we must win. The future we must secure together for our nation.

3:34:51This is what's in front of us. This determines what's next for all of us. We are Marines. We were made for this.

3:35:11You're saying my father's right. I mean what you said. I hear this bitch behind my back talking about my father. Do not say nothing when my back is turned. Say it to my face. And automatically I just black the out. I don't give a if he's a rat or not. Say it to my face. Check my bloodline, bitch. I'm coming for you. You want to keep talking about families? Let's talk. You want to bring up families? You want to get my daughter into this? For my daughter, for my father, for every buddy that you spoke about, I will take a piece of you every time, bitch. This is why you never talk about families. Look at the outcome.

3:35:47Now that blood was drawn, things will never be the same again. Okay, so that was the bulk of that clip is Karen Gravano, Sammy's daughter, who was one of the stars of the show Mob Wives, which I confess I absolutely loved. And she was very open about what it was like to grow up as your daughter and sort of when she how she slowly became aware of what you did for a living and how she could tell, you know, obviously she's fiery and feisty, but how she could sort of tell that you were an important man. You know, the way people greeted you, the way people showed you respect. And I know, you know, that must have manifested in your life, too.

3:36:28You sort of getting into the clubs in New York. And I saw the ABC documentary where you talked about you looked at the Manhattan skyline and said, you know, I own this. I own it. I built it. I control it. So can you talk to us a little bit about that that piece of your history? Yeah, well, you know, I became very powerful in the construction industry. And one day we were on the other side in Connecticut, I believe it is. and we were in a fancy hotel and we went out. I went out on the patio and smoking a cigar, I think. And I looked at the skyline at night. Manhattan is gorgeous. Lit up at night.

3:37:09And it just, the guy who was with me said, what are you looking at? I said, look at this. Look at the beauty here. It's absolutely stunning. It's gorgeous. And I'm part of building this whole thing. I mean, you can't get a job at this point in my life without some sort of a wink and a nod from me saying yes or no. I mean, I became very powerful in the construction industry. Paul had me, Paul Castellano had me under his wing because he loved construction. And he was part of the reason I became very powerful in the construction industry. and he enjoyed using me to run certain unions and do certain things for him.

3:37:55And yeah, I loved what I was doing as far as the construction. I should mention, because you mentioned Paul Castellano, because you had sort of started with a different crime family and then eventually moved over to the Gambino crime family. And that's the family that Paul Castellano for a time was the head of. And you would later become part of his assassination. um but before before before we get to that um so you're living large you're living large in new york and this was a time i mean what it's a weird question but like to what extent did that film the godfather affect people's view of the mafia and your own experience within the mafia you know because it when i was growing up you knew about the mafia but there there definitely was a glorification around it you know it seemed like oh they hurt people but maybe mostly their own people.

3:38:43Well, that's not really true. I mean, the extortion was on regular folks, too. And yet they seem kind of cool and people wanted to, like, rub elbows with them in very high circles. There was speculation about Frank Sinatra and, you know, so on and so forth. So what was your experience of that movie and people's reaction to the mob? Well, that movie stunned me. It was probably one of the best movies I ever watched. It was completely well done. Godfather 1 and Godfather 2. Godfather 3 was a joke. Yeah. Because you were in it when this was coming out. You were in it when those movies hit. Yeah. Yeah.

3:39:23And it, you know, it showed the family orientation, how we are with family, the weddings. My family had weddings like that and people would get up and sing and it was fun. And, you know, who was it? Sonny is with one of the bridesmaids in a room upstairs. I mean, that's typical of us. That was really typical of us. All that stuff that happened in that, the agents watching us. And it just gave me a whole different look at the mob and how the people would look at it. And as far as the fascination, I know what it is. Everybody in my mind anyway, has a fascination, especially men, have a fascination of being a tough guy, going with beautiful women, beautiful cars, making money, you know, fuck the government.

3:40:22and I don't want to pay taxes and I don't want to do this and that. So everybody looked at it and it's you didn't live that life, but you admired it in a way you felt a certain way when you watched it. And I watched this new movie that came out, The Offer, How They Made the Godfather. Very interesting movie, great movie with the producers in Hollywood, the whole nine yards. I mean, just watching these things, the mafia really, you know, it's when I was in prison a couple of times, AB's Aryan brothers and other gang members came to me and told me, Sammy, tell me about the structure of the mafia.

3:41:05And I would tell them why. You're not the mafia. You're Aryan brothers. Why would you want to know? And they said, your structure lasted a thousand years. People admire you guys. People want some people wanted to be like you guys. So what's the whole structure about? So I realized then even them asking me questions like that, that they admire themselves and wanted to be like it. My answer to them was, we're not savages. We don't kill outside our organization. Everybody in the mafia, one time or another, has been involved in a murder, 99%. So how do you control that group of people? If there's no violence within us, if there's no punishments that could cause death, how do you stop them?

3:42:03How do you stop a guy? What are you going to do? Cut off his tie? Slap him on the wrist? He's not going to listen to you. Then he'll do whatever he wants to do. Then there'll be no control. We'll be no better than a gang. And that's what I would tell some A-B guys and stuff like that. You have to have rules. You have to have ideas. You know, I looked at, there was a conversation I just had recently about, I was in Paul Castellano's house and the union, which we control the association and the union for the garbage. And there was a massive strike. It was on television. There was garbage piled up everywhere.

3:42:45I came in and he told me to sit down. The maid got me a cup of coffee. And he said, said for Jimmy Brown and the people who are running the union and the association. so we sat there for a while 15 minutes 20 minutes those guys came in jimmy brown was a captain the other guy was a maid guy and he said look at this television he said what are we animals pick up that garbage from schools from hospitals from old age homes we'll win the strike but what are we animals over money over winning we'll win pick up that goddamn garbage it struck me in a way that here's the boss of bosses Paul Castellano he was the boss of bosses he was the head of the commission saying something like that caring about children hospitals old age homes that they would be infected with garbage or whatever.

3:43:52It's gave me a different look at things. And I, you know, those are good things that I saw. There's evil things I saw. There's people who borderline got to like killing and became serial killers like a Roy DeMeo or gas pipe and people like that. And we killed them because they became that. So we don't believe in pedophiles, rapists, serial killers. We want to get rid of that. When I was in my neighborhood, I, you know, the whole neighborhood, I would say, this is my neighborhood. People I don't even know. Maybe you lived in there. I didn't even know you. You're a beautiful woman. You'd walk down the block.

3:44:36My guys, I would tell them, this is not a construction site. Don't hoot and hell. Don't do anything when you see her. But. She's part of our community. They're us. Nobody's going to touch her. Her husband knew she was beautiful. He'll tell her, go right past Sandy's Club. Don't worry about it. He said that because he knew she was safe. We wouldn't let nothing happen to her. Around the block, only God knows what happens. So we lived a different way. And I think that touched the public in a certain way. they they they didn't agree with the violence but we were different we were a different type of an organization criminal organization i'll call it criminal because it is you know we would take like you say from every industry but we took a little bite out of every industry we screwed the government out of taxes yeah we screwed insurance companies yeah we didn't feel any guilt about that because they screwed people all the time.

3:45:46My mother and father that broke their back and was so legitimate I don't even know how I became a gangster to tell you the truth. They were so legitimate so honest. But they were taken advantage of by unions by the government. So I have no sympathy for government. I have no sympathy for insurance companies who sometimes go overboard and people are sick. Oh, no, we're not going to pay that claim or we're not going to do this. We're not going to do that. I'm not saying all of them. There's some really good people, honest people out there in every industry. And there's some bad people in every industry.

3:46:29So, you know, I have mixed feelings with a lot of these things. And what about like the mom and pa shop owner on the corner who are just trying to make ends meet and they got to pay extra money every month for security or, you know, for permission from you guys to do what is their legal right to do. Or else. Never, never, never happened. Never happened. As far as I'm concerned, never happened. All the mom and pop stores knew my mother, my father, me, my family. It was a community. What what if you're worried about the mom and pop stores, I'll tell you what crushed them is big corporations. Liberal elites get these big corporations and crush them.

3:47:11I had a little milk farm, they called it. It's a little grocery store at one point in my life. And I bought Pampers wholesale. And I put them for a cheap number. I wasn't making any money just as a draw for people. So I sent my partner, my Goombada Ali boy, Como, go to the supermarket, see what they're charging. When he came back, he says, Sammy, they're charging like less than we're paying for the wholesale. So I said, how could they do that? He said, well, number one, they're buying tons of stuff. I wasn't. I'm buying two cases. they're buying 4 ,000 cases. And if they want to make a sale and do the same idea that I have, how can I compete with them?

3:48:03I took the two cases of papers and threw them out. I can't compete with them. So this is what happened in small business, got crushed. But the mom and pop sauce, I mean, I have never, ever thought about, we love these people. We knew them. we went to a bakery a fruit and vegetable store those things don't even exist anymore but you guys you didn't charge people for security uh saying no no not security never well for something though i mean i remember i have some personal knowledge on this because in another life before i was a journalist i was a lawyer and um the lawyer i worked for at this law firm jones day was charged with enforcing a consent decree that the mob had entered into in new york city and that That meant the mob admitted it had done a bunch of things and we were responsible for making sure it lived up to its promise not to keep doing them.

3:48:54And, you know, the sort of the harassment of small businesses, small business owners was on the list. Money laundering and so on. That was another thing. But, you know, this sort of smaller crime, smaller than murders and so on within the family. That's that's one of the reasons why people don't like the mafia. Right. Like it's not all within your own family. There are innocent people who get hurt and who have to pay unnecessary money that they shouldn't have to pay and who could get hurt if they don't do as told. Well, listen, like I said before, you know, there's good and bad in every organization.

3:49:27And there's bad guys in the mafia who would do something like that, do a lot of things like that. That wasn't our norm. Now, I would do that with a disco or something to protect when you talk about protection money. If you can mention my name, nobody could come in and bother you. Mafia wise or any other way. I'll take care of your problems. But I didn't cripple them. They gave me a pay or they gave me something that helped them. I don't look at it as hurting them, shaking them down. It's like a rent. It's like anything else that or any bill that you pay. And in most cases that I did, it was a reasonable pay.

3:50:06pay. What I did mostly is use my power to help grow a company and I would become their partner. I'll give you a quick example. There was a guy who had a small little container company. He'd go to houses and put the container, you're moving, you put all your garbage in that container and he's making money. The containers were garbage. And I got to like the guy. I went to him and I said, listen, I got connections in Jersey. I can get the best containers and I could increase your business. So we had a conversation. I said, I don't want any contracts or anything like that. We could work on a handshake.

3:50:47How much do you make a year? And he said about a hundred thousand a year. I said, how about we go partners? The first hundred thousand you make, that's yours. That's what you make. Anything above that, me and you are partners and I could get you more work. I could get you better containers. So we did that. We shook hands and we did that. At the end of the year of our partnership, I says, how did we do? What did you make? He says, Sammy, I made$400 ,000 this year. All right. The first$100 ,000 is yours. The other$300 ,000, give me my hand. The allegation against you by your critics is that nobody should have accepted this kind of an offer from you because if they wanted to renegotiate or if they wanted a bigger piece of the pie, you would kill them.

3:51:38No, it's not true. That is not true. I've never killed a partner. Listen, what we're talking about happened 40, 50 years ago. And if you came to my office, I'll show you 14, 15 different letters of people who were partners with me and knew me back then are sending me love letters. And I don't know if I'm talking about women, men. Sammy, it was great. I watch your podcast. I hope you make it. Our partnership was great. So I don't know what would happen to the guys for whom it wasn't great. What about what would happen to the guys who said, I don't like the deal and I actually want to break up?

3:52:15I didn't care. the guy with the container business after a couple of years when I grew and I was making so much money, I gave him the business back. I didn't charge him a penny. I walked away. This is yours. I did it with a guy named Joe Madonia with the ACE partition. We had 200 carpenters. When I grew in status, I said, Joe, I love you. I made a ton of money with you. It's yours. It's all yours now. And if anybody bothers you, get in touch with me. And if I could get you some big work, give me a piece. and I got a letter from him in my office now a letter from him loving loving the partnership the relationship we had now what would happen if a guy was wanting to take advantage of me in in some way or throw me out or push me out or do something on his own he wouldn't be happy with it he wouldn't get killed it's not a killing in my eyes it's not a killing offense but I was powerful with unions and everything, I could be a tremendous pain in the ass.

3:53:17And that's what I would be. If he's going for jobs, if he would go for jobs, I would tell him, don't give him no work. Yeah. I imagine if Sammy the Bull tells you don't give this guy any work, you don't give the guy any work because there's a lot of power behind that name at that time, especially. So that leads me to Donald Trump, because there were there was speculation in the press when he was running for president that he had mob ties. no one could ever get him on it. Like, you know, the press tried to get him on everything. None of that was ever proven. But it reminded me of this one exchange he had with David Letterman.

3:53:50This is before he ran for president back in 2013, where he was asked, this is a guy in New York City real estate. You know, he has to deal with construction and some of the industries that you just mentioned, unions all the time. And here's how that went. This is SOT 11. Have you ever knowingly done business with what I like to call organized crime? Have they ever stopped by? I've really tried to stay away from them as much. Right. But have you ever had a case where a guy stopped by and said, Donald, we're going to handle the linens? You know, growing up in New York and doing business in New York, I would say there might have been one of those characters along the way.

3:54:32But generally speaking, I like to stay away from that group. Yeah, well, I think that goes without saying. But sometimes they don't let you stay away from them. There's truth to that. But if you're smart, you can stay away. You have to stay away and just sort of lead your life. You don't want to get involved. Although I must say, I have met on occasion a few of those people. They happen to be very nice people. You just don't want to owe them money. Yeah, I understand. Don't owe them money.

3:55:03I've heard you talk about him before and sort of said like he was you knew not to don't go there. You knew. No, here's what it was with Donald Trump. He was smart. He was a good builder. He was a great builder. He was pretty honorable with the people he dealt with. He had a group of ex FBI agents for security purposes. so we knew i knew that so you could push on him a little bit i tried but couldn't succeed what he's saying is right he knew we were there he knew that he had to deal with situations but he built it as a as a business guy you couldn't go up there and try to talk like this guy was talking you're going to threaten him give me you would be arrested in three minutes those agents were around him 24-7.

3:55:54So I backed away from him because there was nothing I could do. A guy named Eddie Garofalo had a demolition company. He did a job for him. He was able to reach some people in the company, but it never went to his level that we know of. And he didn't want to deal with us. I left him alone because I thought that was a bad problem. He was a legitimate guy. I didn't want to go try to threaten him because I thought we would go to prison. So we left him alone. There was plenty of people who wanted to deal with us. So to go up there like a thug and walk in his office and try to threaten him, you would go to prison for sure.

3:56:39So I don't think anybody bothered him. I'm going to give you a quick example of a news reporter, a woman who called me one day and told me the same thing you're telling me. You were very powerful during the 80s. And he was a big builder. You must know something. They're asking me after he became the president. So I said, I really don't know, you know, just what I told you now. That's what I know about him. I really don't know any incidents that he's done anything, if that's what you're looking for. Sammy please come on she's begging me for information it'll just be between me and you which I know is bullshit that's not going to happen she's looking for information it's not going to stay between me and her so I felt like goofing on and I said listen it's just between me and you?

3:57:29Sammy yeah yeah I'll give you my word nobody will ever know I said alright there was a drywall job I wanted I knew this beautiful woman was a friend of mine. She was a hooker. So I hooked it up with Donald Trump, me, Trump and her. We had a menage a trois and I couldn't help it. I started laughing. So she said, you fuck, you're lying. So I said, I'm not lying. You keep pressing me. And she was asking me, what's her name? What's her name? Why? Who do you care? What a name is. You're not going to say nothing. Why do you care? So they're giving it to BuzzFeed. It would have been printed on the front page.

3:58:05yeah yeah so so now she's laughing i'm laughing and uh i said listen there's one thing i definitely would never do with donald trump i don't dislike him but i would never have a mirage of 12 that's the shit so my head wait can i just let me pause this uh right now just have a bit of breaking news uh at this moment you just mentioned him uh the movie godfather and Sonny Corleone, James Kahn was the actor, played that role, just died. Just got that news in. 82 years old. James Kahn just died. Wow. So sad. Yeah. What an icon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know he was hooked? What do you mean? He was in the mob.

3:58:51What? James Kahn was hooked in with the mob. That's the guy who played Sonny, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you mean? I was there when he came down and asked permission to be in that movie. I was there with Carmine Persico. Joe Colombo gave him the role. Who did he ask permission of? To be in the movie. But whose permission was he seeking? Joe Colombo's. And he came to Carmine Persico because there was a guy, Andrew Mush, who was friendly with him. Matter of fact, Andrew Mush, who was a captain in the Colombo family, became godfather, his kid or vice versa. They were real tight all their lives.

3:59:35So he was connected with the Colombo family. Wow. So at some point in his when he was being cast for the Godfather, you're saying he had this connection? Yes. Wow. Yes. I was there when he came down and they said he's an actor. He's coming down. And they played the part. They brought him over to Carmine to ask permission. And you witnessed him asking for the permission. No, absolutely. I was there. What did he say? No, he asked for permission. Carmine told him, I'll talk to Joe Colombo. I'll make this happen. Don't worry about it. What he did is he put him in Andrew Moshe's hands tight. you know what i mean he might have got the part anyway but they played this whole little game with him but he they became super close they became one became the godfather one of the kids and you can look that all up you can you can see that but i'm confused because james con was a successful actor i think i'm i don't have his whole bio in front of me prior to the the godfather so are you saying he was young he was young i don't think he was a major actor he could have been an actor.

4:00:43Of course he was an actor, but I don't think. But he wasn't in the mob like you were in the mob. You're saying ties, like connections and what friends? What does it mean? Yeah, it's it's an associate. It's an associate of the mob. In other words, he's on record now with the mafia as an associate. He's not a MAV member. He's not one of us, but he's an associate of the Columbo family, just like Sinatra was. He was, too, you say. I mean, of course, there's been rumors about this for years but you're saying that without a doubt they're true you know when we took over john gotti and me and uh john gotti was a fucking egomaniac and he was in a restaurant sinatra had come in and uh he didn't say nothing to john he was gonna buy him a bottle of wine or something john refused it and he sent this guy joe watts over to sinatra and tell him whenever you come in the restaurant and you see John Gotti, you come over and you kiss his hand.

4:01:40And now Sinatra went to where he's supposed to go, to the Genovese family, because that's where he was for years, this guy Frankie Blue Eyes, and Chin Gigante, I was there when he got in touch with us and told John, you know, bro, he's always been with us. When do you send somebody over to abuse him? He does a lot of favors. It's not us, but he's my dog, bro. If you need a favor, he'll do it. Don't go sending people over and threaten him in front of people. And so, I mean, how much more, I mean, and I always knew it, but I'm giving you that example where he was abused by this Joe Watts on John's orders and the Genovese family came right out of the woodwork and protected him.

4:02:27And I should say, I mean, with respect to James Kahn, of course, we haven't had the chance to reach out to anybody in his camp and ask these questions uh and they're quite clearly going to be in mourning today uh Andrew ask for Andrew Russo they used to call him Andrew Mush if he's related to him okay um I will say I knew James Khan just a bit personally through a mutual friend and he was an absolute gentleman and completely kind and lovely yeah and I'm not saying anything bad about no no I know I know you're not no no I know I just don't I feel uncomfortable uh if none of this is true disparaging him on the day of his death and so and i haven't had the chance to check it out myself so with respect to you not not saying it isn't just don't know i want to make that clear to the audience um but but that's unfortunate uh it's sad to have lost him his work in the godfather earned him an academy award nomination a golden globe nomination and of course a place in all of our hearts because he was this firebrand who was tortured and i think just did such a brilliant job of portraying what one might go through if one were born into such a family or in your case willingly joined behind quote the family um before we leave that subject did your wife i always wonder about the wives like did your wife know everything i know she knew you were in the mafia but did she know you know about murders did she know all that no absolutely not i never told my wife anything about the mafia and it was my way of protecting her she always in other words in my opinion could turn around if she was ever questioned by the feds or anybody she could say i don't know legitimately not as i'm not going to give her information especially but murder something like that i'd have to be out of my mind to do something like that but she knew i was in the mafia um but she didn't know any of that either did my kids i was a family man i i lived two lives at home i I was a father, a husband.

4:04:25When I made money, I bought a farm. We put horses on the farm. It was a family life. When I drove to that place, I left the mafia behind me. When I got off the highway, it was in Jersey, Cream Ridge, New Jersey. It smelt the trees, the grass. I was like a different person. Yeah, that's the farm. Yeah. Wow. And it was it was a 30 acre farm. We turned it into a horse farm. We lived great times in their fun holidays, Fourth of July. So when I left, I left on a Friday, took off, usually staying there on a Saturday and Sunday with my family. And we did all great things. When the FBI went up to Cream Ridge, New Jersey, they went to every restaurant, everywhere I went, asking people, you know, about me.

4:05:17And not one person said anything negative. When I sold it, there was a woman who was she sold it. She was she asked me for a cart where the kids sit on it and they could drive it. So I had said, you know, I'm not going to sell it. It's part of the farm. and when I did sell it, I told him that cart isn't for sale. And I gave it to the woman. She told the feds. That's how he dealt with me. He never offered me money under the table or doing anything, but he gave me this cart for my grandchildren. And a matter of fact, as soon as I'm done with this conversation, I'm going to get in touch with him and I'm going to tell him that user here asking me questions.

4:06:03So I was a different animal there. Yeah, well, no, I mean, your kids talk about you in this way. It's part of what makes you fascinating, the dichotomy between your professional life and your home life. And up next in our last segment together, I want to get into turning on Gotti, going into witness protection in your job that you did while while that happened, plastic surgery. And then how you wound up back in prison and then free again. OK, so don't miss that. Stay with us for one more segment as Sammy the Bull Gravano continues with us right after this quick break. My team's been looking into the James Caan thing during the break and says, indeed, Andy Mush Russo, part of the Colombo crime family, was a longtime friend of James Caan.

4:06:54And at one point, James Caan did indeed offer to post Mush's bail money when he was accused of a crime. And this Andy Mush Russo was indeed godfather to one of James Kahn's children. So to be continued on that front, there were there have been reports that Kahn had this connection, though I've never heard it directly from somebody who was actually in the mob. So we've gone to a different place. OK, Sammy, you wind up you and John Gotti wind up running the Gambino crime family, the Genovese crime family. And and John Gotti's mob boss. He's the boss of the family. You become under boss. And you guys for years and years were very tight, very tight.

4:07:34And then as I understand it, and as we said in the intro, things went downhill and I don't want to spend too much time. It's been talked about a lot, but they went downhill. You were both in jail together. You thought he was going to turn on you. And and I know you say that's why you turned on him. You went to those two agents who were following you around all the time and said, let's talk about John Gotti. now his defenders say bullshit they're like that's sammy trying to cover his own butt so he doesn't look like a rat um john gott he wasn't going to turn on sammy um and they they basically just call bs on the whole story so what do you want to say about that right i mean i mean i've heard that they said there's millions of hours of tapes it wasn't millions of hours there was but the the Up in the apartment, there was a small amount of tapes.

4:08:28It was up there for months, but we didn't use the apartment. A lot of times when we did use the apartment, we didn't talk about anything. There was a couple of times that I wasn't in the apartment. And he was sitting with Frankie Lacassio. Now, when people talk about it was all bullshit, I mean, it's made up. There's agents, New York State Organized Crime Task Force that heard these tapes, listened to the tapes and knew exactly what was going on. But I'm going to give you one story that's going to blow all that other stuff away. the judge got rid of our lawyers jerry shagel and bruce cutler and we had to get new lawyers one of the lawyers that we brought in did an interview and you could check this out in an article with jerry capisi he did an interview with jerry capisi and told him this i was brought in to be the lawyer for John.

4:09:35And he told John, I was in that meeting, it was a lawyer's meeting, he said to John, you can't beat this case. Your tapes are devastating. The four, five, six tapes out of all the rest of them are devastating. I could try to work out a plea agreement. And John said, no. I'm going to beat the case I got a secret weapon so Bruce Cutler I mean Bruce Cutler what did I just say his name was

4:10:13that big lawyer but anyway he said well tell me your secret weapon how are you going to beat this case and he says I'm going to throw Sammy and Frankie under the bus And I'm going to go free. We all laughed. Sounded like a joke.

4:10:38The lawyer never came back. When he did the interview with Jerry Capici, he told him that story. He says, I never went back because I didn't want any part of that strategy. but John continued with that strategy because when he was in the apartment with those tapes he had planned to kill me and he you can't just kill an underboss who's very powerful big money earner uh the whole family likes you if you could kill him you shake the whole family if you could kill him and you can kill all of us. Here's a guy who's the most loyal guy to you. He's rigging your cases. He's killing people for you. If you could do that.

4:11:29So all of the things he was telling Frankie to talk about to the captains to prepare. Sammy's killing his partners. He's killing union guys and taking over the unions. He wanted that to go out so that when he kills me, he would have a story. That is on those tapes. We looked into what John Gotti was saying on those tapes. And indeed, it's very negative about you and your alleged behaviors. So I see it. And forgive me for skipping past some of this, but this has been out there. So you wind up saying, you're going to cross me. I'm going to cross you first. And you'll wind up going to jail, which he did for the rest of his life.

4:12:14you got a good deal a sweetheart deal where you're supposed to go away for five years you really only had to serve less than one year because you'd already served four prior to you're a little bit off I took a plea with the thing not for five years I took a 20 year plea I got sentenced to five years because of the cooperation that I did I took a plea for 20 years got it And I didn't do a year. I did over four years. You got some good time off of the five. So I did almost five. When I got sentenced, I had seven months to go on what I got. It's immaterial. The point is, it wasn't a lot of jail time for the feds.

4:13:04Absolutely. Yeah, for what you did. So the deal is you're going to go into witness protection, as we mentioned at the top of the show, for a while. and can you just tell us because i i read that you were you did something with pools where did they send you and what was the job and did you actually run around like looking after people's pools for a year or two or selling people's pools how did that go well when i first got out i went in the witness protection program for eight months i get i promised them i would do one year they were begging me to go in the program. I didn't want to go in. I had plenty of money.

4:13:41They said, you're going to make the government look horrible. Come on. You've got a great deal. Five-year deal. Give us something. Go in the program for a while. I gave them a year. I only wound up doing eight months because I met a woman there I was talking to and hanging with a little bit and she recognized who I was and they came back in and they said, we're going to take you and move you to another state. We're going to start from scratch. And I said, no, I promise you a year. I'm in eight months. I'm not doing it. They said, you have to do it. That's the rules. But like while you were doing it, I'm interested in your life while you were doing it.

4:14:25Like, how does a guy who's in the mob doing the stuff you're doing go to like looking after somebody's pool and claiming that you have this other name and this fake background, you know, what, what was that like? I wasn't, I wasn't doing it while I was in the program and I changed my name. When I left the program in eight months, I changed my name back to, to Salvatore Guilherme. So I wasn't walking around with the name. Am I wrong? I feel like you're, you don't like the fact that you were in this program at all. Is that because it violates It's like the mob code. Is it? It makes you sound. No, no, no, no.

4:14:58I don't want to be in it. What am I going to do that? You can't have any contact with your family or friends or there's all kinds of rules. I just did five years in prison. I'm not going to live by a whole bunch of set of rules. So I gave them that one year. You could bounce me around, change my name, do what you want with me. And then I'm done with you. I'm out of prison. So I didn't want to stay with these rules. Did you go to people's cocktail parties? You go to like the barbecue of the neighbor next door and say, what was the fake name again? I can't remember the fake name. Jimmy Moran. Did you, did you say like, Hey, Jimmy Moran.

4:15:33And like, come on over. We'll watch the Superbowl together. Like, how did it go? No, no, no. I was just running around. I was 55 years old. I think I was, uh, or 50 something years old. And I was there. I was, it was in a college town. I wound up in Colorado and it was a Boulder, Colorado. It's a college town. and I was hanging out there. I met a couple of people and I played chess with some people. I'm a chess player and friendly like that. But no, it wasn't party time. It was like doing time on the outside. I wanted to get done with the witness protection program and go home. And when I got done, I did that.

4:16:18Sorry, I'm condensed in my time. So I just want to get in the last thing. So you go back to your real name in your life. And we talked earlier about whether that was scary in terms of like, people are going to come get me. And sure enough, some tried. And you wind up like, to me, it's just so like, you know, I get it because if you're in a life of crime, maybe it's hard to get out, but you wind up dealing drugs and going back to prison for 20 years, almost 20 years. How did you let that happen? How, like, how did that happen? Now on that one subject, not one subject, but that's exactly what happened.

4:16:55I wasn't dealing drugs. It was ecstasy, which they consider a drug. It's and it was that that's all it was. It was no heroin. It was not cocaine. It was nothing crack. It was ecstasy, which is a bullshit drug. They put it on a level. But anyway, I didn't even do that. there's a thing coming out, a documentary that we're working on. And me, my daughter, my son, and I'm tied up on the contract with that documentary that's going to talk about that little part of my life. So I don't think I could talk about that or I'll get my head handed to me because I'm in contract with it now. That's fine. That's fine.

4:17:38So we'll stay tuned to wait for your longer take on that. But you get out of jail in 2017. and now what right so now how old are you now 77 77 years old you and your wife divorced but it sounds like she's still in your life and kind of a business partner now we talked about your daughter karen you have a son as well so you know what next what what do you do with the time you have left well she's not my business part she's not my business partner i'm a bitch i work for her. She owns the company. She handles my rights. And I work for her. I do my podcast. I do some other things. And I do some things on my own.

4:18:23So we're not really partners. But we're close. We have kids, grandchildren. We've been divorced since 1991. And so, but we are close. And I still I'm still close with my kids, my grandchildren, and I do this. I couldn't find a better thing to do in retirement. I'm never going to go back to crime. I'm never going to do anything like that again. So I enjoy the social media stuff that I'm doing. I'm in this contract about the story of my life at that time with the ecstasy and all that baloney. Is that the Salvatore? Is that or is that a different project? Because I know you're no, that's you've got your own short film series called The Salvatore that's coming out.

4:19:14Yes. The Salvatore. It's based on a true story, but it's not a true story. It's fiction, but it's me. It's here's what it is. I get out of prison in 2017. I'm contacted by the FBI. my wife and children were in the program supposedly and they were all killed and the FBI wants me to go after and follow some serial killer and I agree to it I don't want to do it at first and they show me a picture of dead woman and kids and I agree to go after him now I'm going to say this here but I'm not even supposed to be saying these things but But what happens is, is that these FBI guys got money from the mob and they gave this serial killer.

4:20:14My wife and kids address and he was supposed to go kill them. So they get the money. They break the link and they got me. Now they got me going after him. Sounds a little confusing, but me going after him. No, I get it. It's sort of a real-life crime drama. So this is going to come out on Sammy, on his YouTube channel. So if you're not subscribed, you can see it there by doing so. In the minute we have left, rounding back to the discussion we had on faith and God at the top of the show, what do you make of it? A lot of folks when they get to be 77 years old start thinking about the afterlife and what possibly awaits and forgiveness and all of that.

4:20:57So how do you see what's next for you? You know, meeting a maker, making amends, asking for grace, for forgiveness. Is any of that important to you?

4:21:13it's important to you know what's going to happen I mean I really don't believe that you go anywhere I'll be honest with you I don't think you go anywhere but if I'm gonna go anywhere I'm a negotiator I'll talk to him and I'll talk to I'm not gonna ask for forgiveness if you made me then you made me you could have stopped me anytime you want I'm not gonna you made me what I am I'm a lion. You may be that. So if you wanted to stop me, you could stop me anytime you want. I'm not going to ask for forgiveness. I did what I did in an honorable way, if you could call it that in my eyes. I never really took advantage of people.

4:21:57I never cheated. I never lied. I never bullshitted people to an extent, except for the government, because of course, I couldn't tell them the truth and I couldn't tell my family the truth of things I was doing. but I think that's understandable.

4:22:13And I really, I'm not looking for forgiveness of what I did and what that would mean. This is taught in the church. If you don't believe this, you're going to hell. I don't believe in all that bullshit. I really don't. If you don't believe what I say, you're going to hell. If you don't tell, I don't, I don't believe any of that. So I believe there is a God. I look up at the sky, I do artwork. I learned how to do artwork in prison. I look up at this guy. Who could do that? What artist in the world could do that? It's got to be a God. Life, you see kids, you see animals, you see things. Animals kill each other.

4:22:51So I don't believe in the stuff they tell us in religion. You know, I got it. I think God is fair. He's honorable if he's there. and I don't think I'll have too much of a problem. I think people bullshit about religion. I think they'll have more of a problem than I will. I got to leave it at that because we're coming up against a hard break, but I agree with you that God is fair and he is honorable. And I believe he will have the last say. Sammy the Bull Gravano, thank you so much for telling your story. And as I say, for what the mob says, giving testimony that led to, in their view, what the FBI said, led to the demise of organized crime in New York.

4:23:37Amazing. All the best to you. His podcast is called Our Thing and his mini series, The Salvatore, is coming out next week. My God, what just happened? What just happened in that last two hours? My team and I were just talking about it. Went to a lot of places. I did not expect the thing about James Caan. But there's something to be learned there because we have been so fascinated by the mob in this country, so fascinated by the mob. And it is interesting to listen to somebody who was in it at the highest levels talk about how it works and what the ethical code actually looks like, right? Like some of that stuff at the end, I behaved honorably.

4:24:19That's how he sees it, how he believes in God, but doesn't think that there will be any judgment for him because he thinks God made him the way he, God made me alive. I mean, that stuff was very eye-opening to me in terms of how his brain works and how people can live a life like this. How could you live a life where you kill 19 people? I understand. He says they agreed to live by the same code. But, you know, the rest of us who live by a very different code have trouble understanding any of this. And it's an organization that's had its tentacles in American society for 100 plus years. Right. Right.

4:24:59So it's like anyway, there's a lot to be learned. And our fascination with this group remains. It may be dwindling. It's not done in New York, but it's certainly not what it used to be. But it's still out there. And, you know, it's glorified in virtually every Hollywood movie still to this day. So I don't know. I enjoyed the exchange and I enjoyed listening to his take on it. I obviously disagreed with a lot of his ethical conclusions, as I'm sure you did. but I learned a little bit, and I hope you did too. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

4:25:55This is what's in front of us. This determines what's next for all of us. We are Marines. We were made for this.

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