The DEFINITIVE Deep Dive on Every Michael Jackson Allegation From 1993, 2003, and 2013, with Andrew Hammel | Ep. 1327

28:51And that law said, you can introduce other evidence of sexual misconduct with children or any kind of sexual misconduct, even if it didn't result in a conviction. And so we just just for the audience, because we've been following many cases and we've been we have been discussing on the show how that same rule exists in New York State. It was passed after the Me Too movement that you can allow in other women to testify in a sexual harassment or abuse case. That's how Harvey Weinstein got convicted the first time. And then it got overturned because the court of appeal, which is our highest court in New York said, this is unfairly prejudicial.

29:32You cannot have a parade of witnesses who are not identified victims in this case, take the stand. And now you can't do that. But this same thing was in place in California when it came to people accused of child abuse, child sexual abuse. And so that did happen at Michael Jackson's 2005 trial. Okay, but wait, we're getting ahead of ourselves. I don't want to leave a Jordy Chandler and we'll get to the next case, the trial. But you were saying, okay, in addition to finding those books in his bedroom, and then you were going to give us a meantime update on Jordy Chandler, what he was saying, I mean, one of the things that jumped out at me from your article was that Jackson was in regular contact with June Chandler, Jordi's mom, and that at some point she found out that he was sleeping with her son, like in the same bedroom.

30:24They'd all been at Neverland. He showered them with compliments and gifts, you say. He took them on a trip to Las Vegas. And then after June Chandler went to her bedroom with her daughter, Jordi and Michael Jackson watched The Exorcist together, and then Jackson invited the frightened child to sleep with him. When his mother June found out about this, you write, she put up some initial resistance to which Jackson responded with tearful entreaty. So tell us what she did and what Michael Jackson did as a result of her alleged upset in that moment. Sure. So they were all staying in a large luxury suite in a hotel in Las Vegas.

31:06I believe it was the Mirage. And June Chandler and her daughter, Lily, were sleeping in one bedroom. And they went to sleep. And then Michael Jackson and Geordie Chandler watched The Exorcist. Geordie Chandler was terrified. Michael Jackson invited Geordie Chandler into his bedroom and, I believe, his bed. And they slept together. Nothing happened during that night. But June Chandler the next morning said, you know, what's going on? You know, I didn't sign up for this. And Michael Jackson was crying and saying, we are a family and we're all together. We must trust each other. Nothing would ever happen.

31:45I would never do anything. And then June Chandler relented and Michael Jackson bought her Cartier bracelet worth, you know, probably 20 or$30 ,000. And from that time, as Jordi Chandler said in his interview with a child psychiatrist, You know, Michael Jackson got my mother to agree to let us sleep in the same bed, and we were in the same bed together until the end of our relationship. For the price of a Cartier bracelet. Yes, and even some other pieces of jewelry, too. So, June, it's not a surprise that after all the illegal events of 2004 settled, Jordy Chandler sued to be emancipated from his parents at the age of 15, both of his parents.

32:32And that was granted because he claimed in court they were not properly taking care of them. And the judge agreed. And honestly, if you look back on this story and you believe that Michael Jackson is a pedophile, was a pedophile, shame on that set of parents. because had they actually, if we're in the lane of this is true, he did it. Had they actually just dealt with the police, conducted a criminal case or pushed all their resources into a criminal case, not a money grab, who knows how many boys could have been saved in the future, but they didn't. They went civil. Michael actually didn't pay right away.

33:17He was like, no, I'm not paying this. He resisted. And that is one of the reasons why many of his supporters say he didn't react like a panicked person who was guilty. He reacted like, who are you grifters? No, I'm definitely not giving over a bunch of money. This is outrageous. And ultimately, though, he did settle for a reported$20 million, they couldn't make a criminal case because you tell me what happened after he did that payout. Sure. The payout occurred, the settlement occurred in January of 1994. It was negotiated hard by lawyers on both sides. And the ultimate amount, we don't know the exact ultimate amount, but we know that$15 ,300 ,000 was paid to Jordy Chandler in a trust account and about$1 to$2 million to his parents.

34:06And the terms of that settlement say Jordy Chandler can never say anything negative about Michael Jackson ever anywhere. And Michael Jackson cannot mention Geordie Chandler ever for any reason, which is why the Michael biopic that's currently being released had to be cut. And after the settlement came, now, you know, the Santa Barbara and Los Angeles district attorneys were investigating Michael Jackson still in 1994. But Geordie Chandler indicated to them that he would not willingly testify against Michael Jackson. and so they convened grand juries. They would have needed a subpoena and you can only get that if the person's in the jurisdiction.

34:48I mean the truth is that even a settlement or a non-disclosure agreement can be overridden by a demand in a criminal case potentially or by government officials that you testify, that kind of thing. Your non-disclosure obligation from a settlement agreement would be vitiated. You would not have to give back the money but that's a separate matter from whether they can actually get a subpoena on you to force you to appear. And generally, you have to be within the jurisdiction. And he wasn't. And he actually threatened to leave the country altogether if they wanted to try to wrangle him in by subpoena.

35:22And then as a prosecutor, you're like, okay, even if I were going to go do all that, I have this extremely reluctant witness. What am I going to get? I'm not going to get what I want. So they decided not to pursue the criminal charges in 93 on the Geordie Chandler allegations. That's true. And actually, in 1990, Jordy Chandler did say in 2005 during the criminal trial, I'll flee the country to avoid a subpoena. In 1994, exactly. He was still there and he could have been subpoenaed, but he indicated that he would not cooperate. And, you know, of course, the subpoena can overrule a civil settlement, but he strongly indicated I'm not going to cooperate.

36:06I don't want any part of this. And so the prosecution would have had to call a reluctant witness, and they had no idea what he might say. And it's also important to understand that we don't really understand what Jordy Chandler's attitude toward Michael Jackson was at this time. When he originally told his father, Michael Jackson abused me, he also said, daddy please don't hurt Michael don't go public with this because that will be really bad for Michael and I don't want anything bad to happen to him he's a sweet and kind person I don't agree with what he did to me but I don't want to destroy his career so we don't know exactly what Jordy Chandler thought but he might have still had very fond feelings to Michael Jackson and who knows And there's the possibility that Michael never touched him and that he, you know, his defense was always that I'm a child.

37:05I hang out with children. There's nothing wrong. What could be a nicer expression of friendship and love than sleeping in the same bed? You know, I mean, two young girls having been a tween and teen girl, you'd sleep in the same bed as a girlfriend any time. Like, that's not unusual for two, like, 10-year-olds who are having a sleepover. Yeah, a 30-year-old man with a 10-year-old boy is a very different scenario and should never be allowed. It just shouldn't be. But anyway, so it's possible that Geordi Chandler never accused Michael Jackson and told the dentist father. He didn't. And the dentist father came up with this story that, no, no, Geordi said he did.

37:45You told me, Geordi, right after I gave you the anesthetic for your dental work, you told me that he did. And now, you know, there's a big dispute. And it's possible that the parents manipulated him either to make false allegations or that they were making the false allegations, because it seems pretty clear the parents are disgusting. The mother's disgusting. I'm willing to say it. And this father seemed very focused on getting a payout from the moment the idea occurred to him, either because his child made out an allegation or because he just got the idea. And I think that was also part of the prosecutor's calculation, you know, like, okay, the boy's not going to testify.

38:21Are the parents credible? Do I like my witnesses? Like, how is that going to play? And it was very clear that they were not going to play well. And so from that standpoint, they did the right thing, the prosecutors, because, you know, you can't go through all this only to have it fall apart. Just ask the ones who brought the case in 2005, where they had yet another terrible mother who took the stand and sank the whole case. She sank the whole thing. Time for some life talk. You probably have life insurance, but you might be paying too much for too little coverage. And did you know if you get it through your employer and then you're laid off that you could lose your coverage?

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41:16So he pays Jordy Chandler that money. They go away. The family goes away. And now we have a 12-year period from 93 to 2005. And the next big thing would be the criminal charges for another boy. But what happened in between that time, Andrew? Like, was the pedophilia thing quiet? Did no other boys come forward? Did we know what was going on? Well, during that time, from 1994 to 2005, there was a sort of a concerted effort to try to repair Jackson's reputation. So in 1994, he married Lisa Marie Presley in, I think, the Dominican Republic.

42:14going there. Michael's sister Latoya came out and stuck the knife in. And as far as I know, she's the only family member who's done this, but she, she stuck the knife in and twisted it. And here is what she said. She was in Tel Aviv for a concert. Sat For. I must tell you that this is very difficult for me, that Michael is my brother. I love him a great deal but i cannot and i will not be a silent collaborator of his crimes against small innocent children and if i remain silent then i means that i feel the guilt and humiliation that these children are feeling and i think it's very wrong i have seen checks payable to the parents of these children and i don't know if these children were apparently brought to the parents by Michael or not, but I have seen these checks and I've seen these checks through my mother.

43:13She's shown me these checks that Michael had written to these children and it's for a great amount. And I'm not speaking pennies. The sums are very, very large amount. And this is my first time talking about it. And I never want to speak about it. I never want to say anything about it, but I think it's sad because I am a victim myself and I know what it feels like. And these kids are going to be scarred for the rest of their life. And I don't want to see any more innocent small children being affected this way. Very damning, but it didn't stand. She wound up taking it back, Andrew. Yes, that's true.

43:48I think that interview was given in 1993, and it was very damning. It was reported worldwide. And she also said in a book she published in 1991, she described that, you know, the Jackson family matriarch, Catherine, was extremely displeased with Michael's behavior when they were living in the same home in Encino, California, and she called him, you know, an anti-gay slur, and she showed LaToya these checks. Now, later, LaToya took it all back, and she said that when she made these statements, she was under the influence of her abusive ex-husband, who actually was almost certainly abusing her at the time, and that none of what she said was true.

44:34At the time, she said, I can provide evidence Michael Jackson abused kids for$500 ,000 to a tabloid, but they inquired and she didn't have any evidence of that. So she took it all back, but still, it took a lot to repair her ties with her family after her coming out and saying that. And also one other question on the Geordie Chandler case before we move forward. The search warrant and the pictures of Michael's genitals and his body, they were looking for something in particular to see if it matched up with the description I guess they got from Geordie. There appears to have been some sort of a birthmark on Michael Jackson's penis, like some sort of dark spot.

45:20I don't know if it was a birthmark or it was the vitiligo, which makes your skin darker in some places and whiter in other places. And did Jordi Chandler accurately say that that existed? How did that whole matchup go? Do we know? Yeah, that is still to this day extremely controversial, as with almost everything in this case. Geordie Chandler gave a description to police about Jackson's torso and genitals, and he claimed that underneath Jackson's penis, which is, you know, you could only see this in an erect state, there was a dark splotch possibly caused by, you know, maybe vitiligo had affected other parts of the genitals and this was unaffected.

46:07and according to law enforcement officers you know when Jackson was photographed he he made a big stink about it he was extremely upset and he also had his own photo photographers there also taking pictures these photographs have never been released and that is why there's a debate until this day law enforcement officers say that you know they have seen the photographs and the photographs were consistent with what Geordie Chandler said. However, to be fair, Geordie Chandler also said that Michael Jackson had a circumcised penis. And at his autopsy in 2009, the coroner said his penis appears uncircumcised.

46:50So we still do not have full clarity about whether Geordie Chandler's descriptions were accurate, but law enforcement officers have said they were. and there's many people think that that was one reason that Jackson settled. Now, Jackson had his own photographs taken. He has never released those. He has never asked for the sealed photographs to be released during his lifetime. So unfortunately, we'll never know the truth. But law enforcement officers say it did match generally. Okay. So now we're back to Geordi and family go away. Now we're in this period from 94 to 2004 or 5 when he goes on trial.

47:35What's happening? What's happening is first, I mean, damage control. So there was the marriage to Lisa Marie Presley, which lasted two years from 1994 to 1996. It's pretty well documented that they didn't stay together very much at all. And I believe she had her own home for most of the marriage, and it dissolved in 1996. Jackson also released an album during this time in which he attacked - Standby. Let's spend a minute on Lisa Marie. Because she was asked by Oprah, did you consummate the marriage? And it was one of those famous moments where Lisa Marie was like, Oprah and Oprah kind of shamed her audience who were like oohing an eye and say you know you want to know the answer too and she was not wrong I have to ask you this was it a consummated marriage oh my god Oprah I have to ask that question what and you all know damn well you want to know

48:45I mean it was a real marriage like between the husband and wife it was a consummated marriage. Yep. It was. Okay. That's all. So that happened. And she gave a couple of interviews and she ultimately revealed that her mother, Priscilla Presley, had urged her not to marry him saying you're being used. He's being accused of molesting a little boy and he's using you to make himself look like a straight, normal guy. So don't do this. But Lisa Marie did marry him. They had a lot in common because they both grown up with no childhoods, like a completely under the scrutiny and glare of the bright lights in the media, which gave neither one of them a moment's peace.

49:32Lisa Marie threw no fault of her own. Michael originally threw no fault of his own. His dad made him become this star, but eventually he chose it. And it does seem that they developed actually a very close friendship, though it didn't look anything like a marriage to most people. I think Lisa Marie would later say that they did consummate the marriage or that they at least had had sex in the course of the marriage. But who knows? It seems like they were really just more friends. And here's a little bit of the two of them at the MTV Video Music Awards. This is the opening of September 1994. Here it is.

50:08They walk out together. It's not 11. Please welcome Mr. and Mrs. Michael Jackson.

50:20Welcome to the MTV Video Music Awards.

50:35I'm very happy to be here. And just think, nobody thought this would last.

50:48They're kissing.

50:57And yeah, she said it was a complete marriage. Yes, it was a complete marriage. So that happened, and it didn't last, actually, Andrew. No, it only lasted two years and there were no children as a result of the marriage. It's amazing, though, when you see that beautiful face looking exactly like Elvis, right? It's like Lisa Marie was the spitting image of her equally famous dad. I mean, it's tough to say that Elvis was more famous than Michael Jackson. It's like, has anyone been more famous than Michael Jackson? Like, who's ever the most famous? Like, Princess Diana, Elvis, the Beatles. He's tied, at least.

51:37Here's just one more. Norm MacDonald, you know, one of the greatest social commentators and political commentators to have lived in the modern era. Just underappreciated while he was alive, but posthumously has been celebrated many times by new fans. There he was on Saturday Night Live in 1996 after the divorce was announced with the following. Sat 12. The nation is still reeling from Thursday's bombshell announcement that Lisa Marie Presley has filed for divorce from Michael Jackson. According to friends, the two were never a good match. She's more of a stay-at-home type, and he's more of a homosexual pedophile.

52:16So there's a little flavor of what the populace was doing, which is not buying it. They did not buy what he was trying to sell with that kiss and with the marriage to Lisa Marie. Sorry, now keep going. Sure, Ed. So after that marriage dissolved, Jackson also released an album in the late 90s in which he attacked the prosecutor of Santa Barbara County, Tom Sneddon, in a song that actually had anti-Semitic lyrics mentioning kikes and Jews. Michael did a song with that? Oh, yes. He did a song attacking Tom Sneddon and the press. His prosecutor. The lyrics to the song go, kick me, kike me, sue me, jew me.

53:07And he had to apologize for this. And he apologized in a groveling fashion. But that was something that really stunned me. Well, he really got that push swept under the carpet. because, I mean, I guess, you know, if you're going to choose your controversy, you'd probably choose, like I said, something anti-Semitic over, I molested a bunch of little boys. So I can see why the one drowned out the other, but I was not even aware that he had done that. Okay. So he's clearly bitter over his prosecutor. Yeah. And then he went on to marry a woman called Debbie Rowe, who was a medical assistant to his own dermatologist.

53:50And they were married for a couple years in the late 1990s, and that marriage produced two children. So Paris Jackson and Prince Michael Jackson, the first. And of course, they're still around. And frankly, especially if you look at Paris Jackson, she looks like a Swedish bikini model. There's no way she is the biological child of Michael Jackson. I don't think so at all. And I, you know, Debbie Rowe has, of course, everyone who had close associations with Michael Jackson has signed NDAs and has also agreed to never really go into detail truthfully. So we'll never know exactly what happened in that marriage, but that marriage also collapsed after producing two children.

54:39And then in the early 2000s, like in 2000, 2001, Jackson was really in the doldrums career-wise. His latest album hadn't really hit very well. And Pepsi had canceled their contract with him, and he was getting more and more into debt. And so then he decided on a really huge gamble. He invited a British tabloid journalist to accompany him for eight months just to make a documentary about his ordinary private life. And that documentary came out in 2002, and it was called Living with Michael Jackson with Martin Bashir. And the documentary, you can find it online, but it's hard to find it online. Lots of sources about Michael Jackson exist only in, like, you can only find this documentary in 10-minute-long YouTube clips from years ago.

55:34So, you know, lawyers and fixers have definitely been trying to take care of this. Because the documentary is incredibly damning. I mean, it shows Jackson at Neverland Ranch, and he goes buying expensive things at the Fabergé store in Las Vegas. He attempts to bottle feed his child, Prince Michael Jackson, the first, but that doesn't go well. Oh, I think we have that. We have that. Let me show that. That's SOT 7. I love you. Here he is. Here's the bottle. Wait, wait. Here's the bottle. It's okay. Just get this off. Ow! Oh, please don't cry. Blanket. Blanket. Blanket. Blanket. Okay, okay. Here we go.

56:14Abu! Abu! Abu! Yes. Abu! Blanket! Blanket! Blanket! Blanket! Blanket! I love you. Blanket. Yes. Yes. Yes. I love you. I love my children very much. Why would I put a scarf over the baby's face if I was trying to throw them off the balcony? We were waving to thousands of fans down below, and they were chanting they wanted to see my child. So I was kind enough to let them see I was doing something out of innocence. Thank you. Jackson's behavior was beginning to alarm me. It looks like he has never encountered a baby before in his life, never mind held or fed one. That was shocking. And that's also the baby that he held over the balcony of the Hotel Adlon in Berlin to cheering fans, which also caused a lot of, you know, frankly, horror and anguish among observers.

57:15It was so strange. The crowd down below was cheering him, just like we've seen them do, like the famous Marilyn Monroe moment. Only Michael had his baby and decided, rather than just like even kind of gesturing, here's my baby, to literally put him on the opposite side of the railing of a balcony. I mean, like, I don't even know what to say, but I remember that moment because it went everywhere. And this was the cleanup he tried to do with Martin Bashir, where he doesn't, he's got the kid, for listeners, covered in like a green veil, like a green scarf, allegedly, so we can't see the baby's face.

57:53Well, you can see right through it, and you can see what the baby looks like anyway. The baby hates the veil, not surprisingly, especially when he's trying to get his bottle, and Michael can't get it in his mouth and doesn't look like he's familiar with babies or with his baby or comfortable. Poor Martin Bashir, who must have been a father. I mean, just the way he jumps in is basically like, please stop torturing that baby. This is awful. If you are listening to this show, I urge you to go to our show about an hour in and look at this video. My God, go on YouTube and check this out. Good gracious.

58:27So the Martin Bashir interview didn't go well. I think we have one more from that exchange. Yeah, okay. Is it SOT? Okay, here's SOT 8, a little bit more. Watch. How do you write a song? How do you write a song? How do I write a song? Well, if I sat down with this piano, what would happen? If I sat here and played some chords, whatever, and say, I'm going to write the best song I've ever written, nothing happens. Something in the heavens has to say, look, this is the time that this is going to be late on you and this is when I want you to have it. Now I remember when I wrote Billie Jean, I was riding in my car down Ventura Boulevard.

59:12All I said to myself beforehand, I want to write a song with a great bass hook, you know. And I just let it go, really. And then several days later, you know.

59:28Where did that come from? From above. So that's just another flavor from the documentary. You got to know him, the good and the bad. Like, okay, yeah, that's the kind of thing we're tuning in for. Tell us. How did Billie Jean come about? You know, it's like, I've had these conversations with Richie Sambora of Bon Jovi, and they're fascinating. Like, how did that rhythm come to you? Like, where were you when wanted dead or alive popped into your head, and he can tell you that story. And yet, we had a lot of the dark moments too. Last week or when we aired this right after the movie, we played the soundbite where he tried to defend what could be more natural than sleeping in the bed together with a little boy.

1:00:10It's loving. It's the most loving thing you could do, which would haunt him for the rest of his life. And then here's a little bit where he was filmed with Gavin Arvizo, and this would be the next boy to accuse him publicly. The Bashir thing was what, 2002, 2000, right around there? Two, I think, yes. 2003? Okay, three. And the criminal charges against him would be filed in 2005 by this, as a result of this boy who he features. He's 12 years old. He's a cancer survivor. And he chooses to expose Martin Bashir to this boy, Gavin Arvizo. in the documentary. When people hear that children from other families have come and they've stayed in your house, they've stayed in your bedroom.

1:01:03Well, very few. But, you know, some have. And they say, is that really appropriate for a man, a grown man, to be doing that? How do you respond to that? I feel sorry for them because that's judging someone who wants to really help people. Why can't you share your bed? the most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone you really you really think that yeah haven't you got a spare room or a spare house here where he could have stayed yeah but no yes i have we have guest units but whenever kids come here they always want to stay with me and and gavin's head is resting on michael's shoulder while he's saying that like he they look like lovers?

1:01:50Or you could put an innocent explanation on it and say, your own child might lean on you like that, especially if you were under some sort of stress or attack, they might lean on you like that. But this was not his child. This was somebody else's child. And this child would accuse him of molestation within 24 months. What does it feel like when your clothes actually feel good. This spring, Cozy Earth makes the case that what you wear at home matters just as much as what you wear out of the house, and maybe even more. Let me tell you about the Brushed Bamboo Jogger Set. Made from viscose from bamboo, it's lightweight, breathable, and unbelievably soft, with enough structure to feel put together, even at home.

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1:05:42He got to know the Arvizos because, I mean, Gavin Arvizu, who you saw in that clip, he had a tumor that was, you know, almost the size of like a grapefruit removed from his body and had stage four cancer and was right near death. And miraculously, he recovered. And fortunately, he's alive right now. His mother was named Janet Arvizu. And Gavin had two siblings, Star, a brother, and Davalin, a sister. and they appeared in the Bashir documentary and Jackson was very close to the family as always with families he showered them with gifts and you know attention and you know I think I'm certainly paid for parts of Gavin's medical treatment was very generous and invited them to Neverland etc and at this point you know when the Bashir documentary was made there were no accusations of abuse between Gavin Arvizo and Michael Jackson.

1:06:48But then after the Bashir documentary came out, the Jackson camp went into damage control and they invited the family up to Neverland to create a rebuttal video in which the family was supposed to give long interviews praising Michael Jackson and saying nothing happened, everything was fine. Now, these interviews were never aired. The rebuttal video was aired with outtakes of the Martin Bashir documentary that showed Jackson in a more positive light. But allegedly, during the time that Gavin Arvizo and the Arvizo family were at Neverland doing the rebuttal video, that is when Gavin Arvizo alleged that Michael Jackson sexually abused him.

1:07:29Arvizo alleged at the 2005 trial that Michael Jackson had given him wine, which Jackson called Jesus juice. And other, you know, James Safechuck also says Michael Jackson gave him wine. Gavin Arvizo also said that Michael Jackson had shown him pornography to get him aroused. And in fact, Gavin Arvizo's fingerprints were found on copies of Hustler, Barely Legal Hardcore. So his fingerprints and Michael Jackson's fingerprints were both found on an issue of that magazine. And so Gavin Arvizo, once again, Gavin Arvizo's allegations were not given immediately to the police. He went to a child psychiatrist and the psychiatrist reported the potential abuse.

1:08:19And then that's what started the ultimate 2005 trial rolling. And there was another search of Jackson's home and apartments in L.A., and they found yet more legal nude child erotica and also explicit adult homosexual pornography and explicit adult heterosexual pornography. a lot of it, and also porno DVDs. And much of it was in Michael Jackson's master bedroom, which he shared with children, and it was accessible to them, perhaps not laying out, but, you know, in bookcases or in drawers. And that also became a part of the 2005 trial. And so Gavin Oviso accused Michael Jackson of abusing, sexually abusing him during the filming of the rebuttal video, and that's what led to the 2005 trial.

1:09:23And there is other testimony around this same time. I don't know if it was at the trial, but about how now in the corridor leading to Michael's bedroom, they've added all these security alarms, like basically down a 25-yard hallway, like lights will go off and alarms will sound if you get anywhere near Michael's bedroom, which has some six locks on it, including deadbolts, multiple deadbolts. Now, I mean, I understand as a public figure, you do need to feel safe in your bedroom. So like there's that defense there, but that sounds like a lot. So there is a question about whether that was there so that he could have a warning if anybody was coming.

1:10:08And there have been over the years, a bunch of security guards and maids and other servants who have worked at Neverland who have come out to say he was doing it. Like I never saw him actually molesting somebody, but I saw him in his bedroom or I had to clean his bedroom with like incriminating underwear, you know, boys underwear. Um, or, you know, I saw him pick up young boys and, you know, take them home to his bedroom, not like strangers, but like testimonies like that. But in every case, again, they were money grabs. These people wanted money. They either sued Michael for money or they took big tabloid payments to say these things.

1:10:49This is the thing that's so infuriating about this case, Andrew, right? It's like everybody had their handout. All I want is one, the few witnesses who come forward who didn't take money defend Michael, like Macaulay Culkin, like Brett Barnes, they have never taken a dime and they defend Michael. I want one person who has not taken money, who comes out to say, this is real. He did it to me and I don't want a dime. I just want you to know this is real. That would make it so much easier. But the fact that all these accusers took money is just so despicable in my in my view. I just they've they've muddied the waters.

1:11:36Anyway, back to you. Yeah, that is that's the argument that won the trial in 2005. So Michael Jackson's lawyer, Tom Mesereau, veteran criminal defense attorney, extremely good lawyer. He cross-examined all of these. They were all allowed to to testify as sort of like pattern and propensity evidence to show that Michael Jackson had a tendency to abuse young boys. But Mesereau tore them all apart on cross-examination. And the argument that he consistently made is, if you really saw a child being abused with your own eyes by Michael Jackson, as you claim, or something that, you know, that's extremely incriminating, why didn't you just immediately go to the police?

1:12:19And they didn't have a good answer for that. And they all had to admit they'd taken tabloid money. They had threatened to sue Michael Jackson. and many of them were disgruntled employees who had been fired for cause, as Mesereau was able to show. And so the attempt to show this broad pattern fell apart because basically every one of the accusers had their hand out or had a grudge or had changed their story. And so that is, you know, I say in the article that I think the jury's verdict was reasonable. They could have gone the other way, but acquittal was appropriate under the circumstances because there are so many holes in the prosecution's case because of these witnesses.

1:13:05Yeah. Here is Tom Mesereau in 2019 speaking about the Jackson case, South 21. Do you think he's remotely or could have been remotely capable of doing any of those things? The things he's been accused of doing? Absolutely Absolutely not. I am 100 % convinced Michael never abused a child, never harmed a child, certainly never molested a child. I think this is hogwash. Do you think if he was still alive, do you think these people would now be coming out and saying the same thing, that he molested me? I just don't know. I mean, I think I have to believe these are financially motivated accusations.

1:13:46I have to believe that. Because how else can you explain it? I take that into account too. But I personally am not involved in their civil lawsuits. I've not represented anybody in them. I've not been present for any of the proceedings. I don't know who said what in those cases. I just know the evidence that I saw. And that leads me to a very powerful conclusion that Michael Jackson never abused a child at any time, never tried to hurt a child. We had testimony in the trial that he said he would slit his wrists before he would hurt a child. Hmm. So, okay, that's Mesereau. He believes his client.

1:14:24But in that trial, while he did a very good job defending Michael Jackson, it was the cross-examination of the mother of the victim, the alleged victim, who sunk the case. So she sank the case. So what was so bad about the mother's testimony, Andrew? Like, why did she do so poorly? Well, I believe she was on the stand for something like five days. And the reason she was important is because the prosecutor had sought to sort of like upcharge the child molestation allegations by also saying that Michael Jackson and his employees had essentially kidnapped the family and forced them to stay at Neverland Ranch to make these exculpatory interviews.

1:15:14and that was a bad mistake by the prosecution because you know janet arvizo took the stand she snapped her fingers at the jury she lectured she went on long rambling excursions uh she had to be reprimanded by the judge over and over and you know the the defense attorneys kept pointing out you could have left at any time and you know you even left the ranch and came back to it voluntarily because you wanted the favors and you wanted the free lodging and, you know, the possibility of gifts from Michael Jackson. You weren't kidnapped. You weren't held against your will. And she was also, you know, she engaged in fraud, welfare fraud and perjury that she was convicted of after the trial.

1:16:01But there was already indications that she had basically applied for welfare, even though she had already gotten a$150 ,000 judgment in a lawsuit against J.C. Penney. You know, allegedly one of the security guards attacked her in the parking lot and she had all that money, the$150 ,000, and then she applied for welfare and got it and concealed that settlement, which she certainly did. And so she was completely non-credible and Mesereau painted her as sort of a grifting con artist willing to do anything to extort money from the Jackson estate. Now, it's true she didn't sue him before the criminal trial, but as we both know, had Michael Jackson been convicted, then the civil judgment against him would have been just a matter of pure form.

1:16:52She could just sue him for civil damages and automatically win because he'd already been convicted. I do feel the need to say that we see this pattern oftentimes, whether it's a pedophile or a serial rapist of women or a harasser abuser, these victimizers choose their victims wisely. They don't usually choose somebody from an intact home with a loving set of present parents and financial means. They look for someone who's vulnerable, who might be in a difficult family situation, and whose credibility, the family as well, would be easy to destroy. So I do feel the need to say that because is it possible he did that with these families?

1:17:39Yes, it is. It's possible. It's one of the possibilities that's out there. Okay. So he wins that trial and we go forward. Now, you point out in your piece that there's a journalist named Diane Diamond who worked for Hard Copy, and she's one of the people who busts this case wide open to begin with. she busted it open because she was given back in the 93 timeframe, um, a police report about him allegedly being a pedophile. And with the, with the admonition, she said from somebody saying, I, this can't keep happening as if there had been multiple reports to authorities of Jackson being a pedophile.

1:18:21So she's been on this for a long time and she wrote, um, a postscript to, she wrote a book in 2005, but then she updated it after that Neverland documentary, again, in air quotes, came out. And she wrote the following, a highly placed law enforcement source once revealed to me the results of a forensic deep dive into Jackson's financials. The source said that that examination concluded that over the years leading up to the 2005 criminal trial, the entertainer had doled out about$200 million worth of gifts and hush money to young boys and their families. This This astonishing figure you write appeared to be confirmed by attorneys representing Wade Robson and James Safechuck, who of his accusers featured in that Finding Neverland or Leaving Neverland, during civil litigation against the Jackson estate in 2015.

1:19:09$200 million. If that's true, you say it's confirmed by attorneys representing these two who would have had access to those kinds of numbers. It also does dovetail with what LaToya said in her later retracted soundbite about her mother showing her the checks that he'd written to multiple families, not just Jordy Chandler, it sounded like. And it would explain his financial ruin because on the day he died, the New York Times, The Daily just did a deep dive into this. On the day he died, his estate was valued at zero given all the debt he was in and lack of income because these allegations had taken their toll.

1:19:50Yes, absolutely. Now, I mean, we can't really, of course, we can't completely verify the 200 million, but we know that at least 25 million is accounted for because he paid the settlement to Jordan Chandler and also to Blanca Francia, one of his former maids, who accused him of abusing her son, Jason Francia. He settled that lawsuit for about$2 million, over$2 million in the mid-1990s. And the other thing is that we all know how things work in Los Angeles. If you're a lawyer, you have fixers who, you know, when a demand letter comes in from a potential plaintiff, the fixers come around and they make it go away.

1:20:36And if you have hundreds of millions of dollars, you can make a whole lot of things go away before they even hit the airwaves. And so it's not just the, you know, hush money payments and settlements and also gifts. He bought a house for James Safechuck's family. And, you know, he bought an incredible amount of expensive bling and incredibly expensive paintings and artworks. Yeah. So he was broke at the end of his life. And that's why after he, you know, after 2005 he was really broke he couldn't pay his lawyers anymore and that's when we almost had the pro-pedophile documentary from the makers of rupaul's drag race what oh this is yeah this that they had to cut it out of the articles because the article was already too long but in 2000 in 19 okay the guys who make rupaul's drag race they're called barbado and bailey and they're now very famous, they have a production company called World of Wonder Productions.

1:21:40Now, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, they were making gay-themed schlockumentary, sort of like tasteless, over-the-top movies about, you know, a gay drug kid murderer called Party Monster. And in 1996, World of Wonder Productions from RuPaul's Drag Race, they tried to option a book about Michael Jackson, which contained explicit descriptions of sex between Jackson and Jordi Chandler. This book is called Michael Jackson Was My Lover, The Secret Diary of Jordi Chandler. And the book was, it had private information from the Chandlers, like bank receipts and medical records, etc. And so World of Wonder Productions, the RuPaul's Drag Race people, wanted to make it into a documentary about the loving romance between Michael Jackson and Jordi Chandler.

1:22:39And in 2006, when Jackson was broke, they finally did get the rights to the book. They wrote four screenplays for this movie. The movie was going to be called Michael Jackson Was My Lover. There's a 2006 article in British GQ about this movie that was about to come out. They had raised four million dollars for a pro pedophile movie about the erotic romance between Michael Jackson and Jordi Chandler this article is extremely hard to find I had to you know you have to really work hard to find it but I found it and it's up on my YouTube channel now I have a video about it and so in they were about to release in 2007 and even Barbato and Bailey the guys behind role to wonder productions they said this shatters all expectations of what you know anybody can make this is completely outrageous and that's why we had to go to europe to get funding because in america the eek factor about a positive portrayal of pedophilia is so high so we had to go to europe and they said they had raised four million dollars to make this movie uh of course it It never came out, but it was about to.

1:23:57A movie that portrayed Jordi Chandler and Michael Jackson as a sexual erotic couple who were deeply in love with each other without any hint of adverse judgment. Oh, that is sick. That is unbelievable. So RuPaul didn't make the movie, but he owned the company that was going to make the movie? No, the company is owned by two guys in Hollywood. You know, they make a lot of LGBTQ gay themed content. Barbato and Bailey, and they own the company World of Wonder Productions. And that company now makes RuPaul's Drag Race. If you go to the company's website, it says, we're bringing the underground into the mainstream with, you know, uniqueness and extravagance.

1:24:46So now they're very mainstream. Back then, they were on the extreme cutting edge of what was tasteful. I don't think they are mainstream. I mean, honestly, I don't watch RuPaul's Drag Race, but I saw Kamala Harris went over there. And we had done a segment two weeks before Kamala Harris went over there to launch, like was one of her early campaign videos, was showing some crazy trans person, like a man walking down the runway with fake breasts in it, like bloody breasts in a bag around him with blood dripping down his chest, you know, fake blood. It was so dark. So no, they really haven't cleaned up their act much.

1:25:24I mean, you can't go lower than glorifying pedophilia, but okay. So, all right. I don't want to keep you too much longer, but I do want to spend a couple minutes on the two names that we've been mentioning over and over, which is Wade Robson and James Safechuck. Those are the two men who are featured in the, again, air quotes documentary, Leaving Neverland. And that was in 2019 that revived this whole debate, you know, in a massive way about what he was and what he wasn't, because these were without question two boys who, when they were young, 100 % knew Michael Jackson and spent a lot of time with Michael Jackson.

1:26:03One, I think it was Wade won a dance contest. He was like a lookalike. And one, James Safechuck was in an advertisement with Michael and did get to know him. And both of them testified at the trial in 2005 that Michael Jackson never laid a hand on them. Because we had the witnesses coming in, like the extras saying, like the maid's son, he molested me too. But we also had the character witnesses for Michael. Like these two, like Macaulay Culkin, who went to that 2005 trial and said, he's never laid a hand on me. He's a very good guy. These are lies. But these two have come out in that so-called documentary to say, I was lying.

1:26:45I was lying under oath then. Macaulay Culkin, all these years. Emmanuel Lewis, too, the kid who played Webster. All these years, never, never laid a hand on me. I would tell you. I like Macaulay Culkin has said like it's kind of fashionable these days to say like you've been a victim of something. He's like trust me if I had something to tell you I would tell you never laid a hand on me. So these two boys said the same but then in 2019 cooperated with this filmmaker and there are all sorts of credibility problems especially with Robson especially with Wade Robson. What's your view on it Andrew.

1:27:25yeah and even after so wade robson testified at the trial in 2005 said michael never laid a hand on me i think uh safe chuck uh gave a deposition or a statement but didn't testify but certainly they both over the years over and over and over said there was absolutely nothing going on and even after the 2005 trial they said there was absolutely nothing going on and and robson especially, was in contact with Michael Jackson and was trying to sort of like work angles to build his showbiz career with Michael Jackson's help after 2005. And he claims that he changed his view of Michael Jackson after he became a father.

1:28:11That's what James Safechuck also says, after he became a father, which, you know, that is sometimes a factor in cases like this, But certainly, and they both sued Michael Jackson's estate and his companies in 2013 and 2014. And they had to sue the estate and the companies because Michael Jackson was dead and the alleged abuse was long past the statute of limitations. So the theory of their lawsuit was that Michael Jackson's companies had been negligent in failing to prevent Michael Jackson from abusing them. And because the companies still exist and the estate still exists, that was a theory of the lawsuit.

1:28:50It was an extreme stretch. And the lawsuits were actually both dismissed. I believe that Wade Robson initially claimed something at$1.5 billion from Michael Jackson's estate and companies in his lawsuit because he claimed that the abuse had made him unable to launch his show business career, which otherwise would have been extremely successful. So the lawsuits are a real stretch and they are a money grab and they were eventually dismissed. Now, California has updated its laws and changed the statute of limitations. So Robson and Safechuck's lawsuits have been revived and may now go to trial. And so then they told their story in 2019 in the documentary or the interview series.

1:29:38uh and the thing is uh and the you know it's not a documentary because it doesn't even attempt to provide any sort of balance uh in that part uh in that documentary there's they're not cross questioned they they don't go into the timeline they don't go into all the statements that they made supporting michael jackson over the years but you know you know when i watched it at the into the documentary, I thought, you know, these guys are, you know, they are flawed and they are, they have questionable motives. I'm not sure if I can completely trust them, but the pattern that they described was consistent with the statements of many other accusers and the details were consistent.

1:30:26But all those had been public prior to 2013 and 2014, or 15, when they filed their lawsuits. So they absolutely could, like the Jesus juice, you could study that. You just go back and read Jordy Chandler's account. I always forget the second boy, Gavin's. Read his account. Read the earlier accounts that were out there, and you could come up with a credible story. I'm not saying it didn't happen to them. I really don't know. I have no wish to traumatize little boys who were molested and then grew up and found the courage to talk about it. I'm just trying to be fair to Jackson, who's dead and unable to defend himself here, in pointing out you would be able to tell a credible story because the earlier allegations were not under seal.

1:31:13You could steal heavily from them and craft a story. and these two, I mean, apparently Wade Robson at Michael's 2005 trial was a star. Like he wasn't just a witness. He was a star. And the prosecutor really tried to rattle him and get him to admit he did get molested, that there was, Michael wasn't this upstanding, you know, never touch a child figure. And he was unrattlable in a way. It's been very hard for some people to believe a little boy would have been capable of, you know, that they believe the under oath testimony where he said nothing happened and they don't believe the current Wade Robson, who didn't make these allegations until he thought he was going to be cast as the choreographer of the Cirque du Soleil Michael Jackson show.

1:32:02And he wasn't. He wrote a book about his alleged experiences with Michael, and he reportedly lied about having done that when asked if he had written anything under deposition in a civil case, he lied and said no. And it turned out he had. And I'm told, this is my own reporting, that they actually wound up getting the metadata on that book by going to some of the publishing houses who had received electronic submissions. And it showed inconsistent testimonials from him. His story, even in the old drafts of his book on what happened to him changed dramatically from version to version, which is very devastating.

1:32:48You know, it's like, what do you mean? The abuse is the abuse. Like, why would it be changing from version to version? And he needed money, you know, so there's a bunch of things with Wade Robson. I'll go into it in another episode in more detail, because I do know a lot about these two in particular. And Save Chuck, we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, but he also needed money, was facing some legal, some litigation when he filed his claim. And also on top of that, alleged that he was abused by Michael Jackson through 1994, sorry, sorry, that it ended in 1991 or two, the abuse of him. And he claimed that it happened repeatedly in this train station on Neverland, like a fun Disneyland type train station.

1:33:36And after that so-called documentary came out, it was revealed that that train station wasn't even built until 1994. The application for the permit is public and it was not filed in 93 and it's public record that that train station didn't go up until 94. So there's no way James Safechuck was abused in that in 1991. No way. And the filmmaker who put him out there with that story said, oh, well, his date of the abuse must be wrong. It must have ended later than he thought. Well, that's not how his documentary presented it. And Safechuck hasn't explained that three-year difference when he said in 91, or it might have been two, but the reason it stopped was he had aged out.

1:34:22He's got a pedophile, as I've been trying to tell the audience for months now and related and unrelated stories. A pedophile is somebody who is attracted to prepubescent children. Prior to 13 is what the literature says. Prepubescent. And all these kids have alleged that they did age out. They aged out of his attraction. And Safechuck said that as well. And if it really were going on into 94, into that timeframe, he would have been, I think, 16, which is aged out by his own description. And on top of that, Michael Jackson, by that point, was spending his time in New York, not at Neverland. So, again, I don't know whether these guys are telling the truth or not.

1:35:10All I know is they too have serious credibility problems, which are coming as news to most viewers who haven't been tracking the coverage really carefully. That looks critically at some of the allegations. That's wrong. You were meant to walk away from leaving Neverland thinking, I believe them. The whole thing was crafted to drive you to that belief as opposed to just presenting a fair both sides, you know, case from which you could walk away with an educated opinion. yeah and in fact dan reed the director he just released in late 2025 a follow-up um i it's also has neverland in the title and i watched that and that is a much much more conventional and totally unconvincing follow-up documentary like traces how these lawsuits proceeded and in that documentary you know we see robson and safe chuck you know with their families and they complain about how terribly traumatized they are.

1:36:11But most of the new documentary is, you know, sort of sleazy Hollywood lawyers explaining how they were trying to maneuver the lawsuits against Michael Jackson's estate. And so you see the lawyers, I don't want to call them sleazy, but you know, they're kind of, you know, they're very lawyer-y in the way they, oh my God, this, this, and this. And it makes it really, yeah, very slick and very unconvincing. And you also see that their lawsuits initially went nowhere because the legal theory was basically invented. And then in this documentary, at least Dan Reed, the director does give some time to the other side, to people who defend Jackson and dispute Grobson and Safechuck's claims.

1:36:55I mean, after he completely poisoned everybody in 2019 with his original piece, it's like, okay, great. And it's no accident to me that these guys didn't come out until after Michael was dead. And the same with the Casios. Those four children who are, that story is so bizarre. They're like three sons and a daughter of a guy who worked at the Hounsley Hotel in New York that Michael Jackson would swing through. And their dad was a hotel worker. And somehow he connected Michael with his children. And before they knew it, he was regularly visiting them in their New Jersey, very modest home. And Michael Jackson moved in with the family for three months after 9-11.

1:37:36and who's, wait, Michael Jackson's on the couch. Michael Jackson's living with us back at our house. Okay. I'm like, the kids in school must have been - Oh, he's done that before. Yeah. What? He did that with Wade Robson. He moved in with, I mean, he moved into Jordy Chandler's house and Michael Jackson would, like when Jordy Chandler was going to school, Michael Jackson would show up at the house at like, you know, 5 p.m. after Jordy came home from school, sleep in the same bedroom with Jordy Chandler. and then in the morning Michael Jackson would leave while Geordie Chandler was at school and then when Geordie Chandler come back Michael Jackson would come and stay and sleep in the same bed with Geordie Chandler that went on for at least a week and it also went on with the Robsons I mean actually the Safe Chucks the Safe Chucks also report and there's evidence to back this up from like chauffeurs and documents that you know first of all he bought them a house and he also lived there for a long while.

1:38:34He called the Casios his second family back in 1992 and lived with them on and off for various times. Now, I also have a lot of doubts about the Casio allegations, because first of all, they've already been paid off. They received a settlement of$16 million in 2020. And now the money's run out. And now they're saying Michael Jackson abused them all publicly for the first time. Exactly. Same thing. So, and they all along had been defending him saying, never, never, never. But now Michael's dead. Then they said that the Leaving Neverland documentary in 19 led to an aha moment where one was like, I've got to tell my siblings I really was molested.

1:39:18And then all the others are like, me too, including the girl. She's the only girl to ever come forward and say that she's been molested as far as I know. like i'm not sure that tracks one more there's another girl there's one more yeah she's called jane doe and uh she claims that just so she's never been she didn't sue and her identity is not known she claims michael jackson abused her in the late 1980s and early 1990s and the only reason there is anything to this story is that you know she provided checks of you know hundreds of thousands of dollars that Michael Jackson had made out to her, which apparently are authentic.

1:39:58But that doesn't prove anything about her claims or allegations, and there's no other corroboration. I mean, I'm interested in it because if you didn't sue, then it's good. But why is he giving her big checks? I mean, like, she must have threatened a lawsuit. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been writing those. But okay, so in any event, so this family now suddenly after he's dead and the gravy train is getting back on track. Because right around that time, we were seeing the Cirque du Soleil and the Broadway musical was launched, which actually turned out to be a hit. Everything related to Michael Jackson, the Cirque du Soleil was a hit.

1:40:36The Broadway show was a hit. The movie was a hit. The music is coming back. There is a very, very strong appetite for Michael material. And they realized it. And suddenly, they've had an epiphany. I don't think their lives are going that great. They didn't look like they were living large. And, you know, they're like, what could it hurt? That's my own assessment about them. Could be wrong. I don't know. But that was it. They're awfully late to the story. Okay. I want to finish with where you finished in the piece. Cause I thought it was a, it was very well done. You, you know, you spent a couple of good pages on like, what is a pedophile?

1:41:12What, what do pedophiles do? And like in general, if you, if you zoom out, Does Michael Jackson's behavior that we know he did match? And you write about something called the preferential pedophile. And you write that preferential pedophile. Okay, so, well, first you say this, citing a book from 2010, a study, Child Molesters, a Behavioral Analysis. You say preferential child molesters typically proceed by seducing their child target, much in the same way that adults seduce one another. They tend to focus on attention-starved children from broken or dysfunctional homes. At first, the pedophile wins over the child's parent or parents by offering them support, advice, services, or gifts and showering them with praise.

1:42:01You mentioned he bought some houses. Once the parent's guard is down, the pedophile, or maybe Cartier bracelets. Once the parent's guard is down, the pedophile turns his attentions to the child. Spending time on things adults and children can do together without arousing suspicion, such as visiting an amusement park or a sporting event, playing games with them, giving them gifts, and smothering them with attention and praise. I mean, it's just when you think about the Neverland Ranch through this lens, it feels plain as the nose on your face. Preferential pedophiles are often noted to be very good with children, able to talk to them easily and understand their worldview, perhaps even better than their parents.

1:42:42Their homes will often feature interests or items of interest to children, such as game consoles, toys, puppets, or figurines. What did we hear in the movie, Michael? You know, we saw his room with all the stuffed animals and brings the Twister game home. And we've heard from Mark Garagos that he had a two-story arcade at the Neverland Ranch. That was like, you know, something out of the 80s where, you know, we all used to go and hang out and play Space Invaders. The kids loved it, not to mention, you know, the Ferris wheel and the rides and on his front lawn and the trains and so on. So game consoles, toys, puppets, figurines, pedophiles, writes Lanning, the author of that study, often refer to children using words like clean, pure, innocent, or impish.

1:43:29The homes of some pedophiles, writes Lanning, have been described as shrines to children or as miniature amusement parks. After the pedophile has created a situation in which he and the target child can spend time alone, he must convince the child to keep secrets. To this end, the pedophile often encourages the child to engage in naughty behavior, such as smoking, drinking, cursing, or viewing pornography. My God. This creates a bond of shame and secrecy. Some pedophiles resort to outright threats or violence, but that is rarely the case with those who follow a seduction model. I mean, oh, Andrew, this is like, I don't, it's like 10, we're 10 for 10 here on the matchups.

1:44:18And that's, you know, it's that the author of that, that I relied on among others is Kenneth Lanney, who was a child sexual abuse specialist for the FBI for decades and, you know, participated in thousands of cases and interviewed thousands of pedophiles. And the behavior pattern just fits so closely. You know, Neverland was an amusement park. If you look at the faxes that Michael Jackson sent to Wade Robson, it's love bombing. You know, Michael Jackson spent, you know, five or six hours on the telephone to young boys just talking about how wonderful his ranch was and everyone he met on the tour and the great things they were going to do together.

1:44:59And, you know, Michael Jackson, even, you know, he refers to you share your bed with somebody. It's the cleanest, purest sweet, innocent thing to do. Because pedophiles, they don't think that what they're doing is wrong. They believe that they are showing love to another human being and helping a young boy blossom. And they're providing him or her with attention and advice and material assistance. And occasionally, they have a little play doctor session, which both of them enjoy. That is the, and as Lanning says, the first time they're accused, pedophiles always, always deny. They say, of course not, I would never do something like that.

1:45:48And then only when they're confronted with the evidence, you know, with the hard drive full of pictures or, you know, surveillance photos, then they say, okay, well, maybe we did that. But, you know, I understand this kid, this kid comes from a broken home. He had nothing going for him. His parents were abusive and neglectful. And I provided him with love and attention and gifts. And that's supposed to be wrong. That's supposed to be immoral. Who else was going to take care of this little kid? So just to clarify, this is interesting. So to clarify, in the mind of a pedophile like this, this preferential pedophile, because I guess there's another type that's like, I don't know, whatever.

1:46:29But for purposes of our discussion, that's what we think Michael might have been. That person genuinely doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. Like he recognizes society has a judgment on it. But in his mind, he genuinely is like, this is okay. He's not like, this is so wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway. Yeah, that's the pattern. It's also the pattern in that weird book I was talking about that almost got made into a movie. the book about Michael Jackson containing this explicit description of sex with Geordie Chandler was positive toward that relationship. And when you ask pedophiles, you know, the smarter, many of them are very intelligent and very social and educated.

1:47:09And they'll say, you know, look at ancient Greece. It was always accepted then. Look at Oscar Wilde. So they have historical parallels to it. And they believe that it's just some people have a natural preference for members of the opposite sex or members of their own sex. And some people have a natural preference for children and some children. And this is the sinister thing. As I pointed out, that movie in 2007 that almost got made from people behind RuPaul's Drag Race, that movie was going to portray Jordi Chandler as the initiator of this sexual relationship with Michael Jackson. that was going to portray him as wanting to have sex with Michael Jackson, as being a young gay boy who was absolutely floored by his idol and now had the chance to become intimate and erotic with his idol and took it.

1:48:05So he's the one who seduced Michael Jackson. That was going to be the theme of the movie, as far as we know, according to the reports. And that's what pedophiles also say. A big question for a lot of us, you know, covering the news these days. Do we have any idea how widespread this is? Do we have any idea like, you know, they say, who knows if this is true, but they say like one in every four person is a sociopath. Do we have any idea like how widespread pedophilia is? Or it's just, there's just no way of knowing because the vast majority of them understand this needs to remain underground or they will lose their freedom and possibly worse.

1:48:44Sure. And I mean, the prevalence, it's very low. It's probably well under 1%. Thank goodness. And the one thing that, you know, if Kenneth Lanning, the FBI guy, and other researchers were here right now, what they would say is, if you're thinking of pedophiles as a weird, nasty guy at the park in a dirty overcoat or something like that, that's completely wrong. The people who are convicted of child molestation, first of all, half of them are married. Only a quarter of them have any kind of hardcore child pornography. and the vast majority are in positions of authority and respect where they can have contact with children like in churches schools and youth groups and so don't look for pedophiles at the park or in a dark alley look for them as being like weird older men who have a very unusual interest in children who get along with them really well and who show them a lot more attention than most males do and who are in a position to get access to children in like a school or a church or a Boy Scout group.

1:49:52Those are the people who are most likely to be pedophiles. So at the end of the three months and the article, and I know these things go through so many drafts and so much editing, so you've become deeply familiar with this subject matter at this point. What's your judgment? What's your takeaway on Michael Jackson? I think Michael Jackson was a pedophile, which doesn't necessarily mean he was a child molester. But I think that, you know, looking at the forest and not the trees. So the trees are all the individual accusers, all the rumors, speculation, gossip, and all of that. But when you look at the forest, there is a consistent pattern of him seeking out inappropriate contact with young boys and engaging in clear grooming behavior with young boys.

1:50:42And there are numerous accusations of him moving on. And also pedophiles don't just randomly go after every child they meet. And Michael Jackson loved children. And he also treated young girls very well and took them to Neverland and formed friendships with them too. He loved children. And he was in many ways an extremely decent, kind person and a humanitarian. But when he saw a certain kind of beautiful young boy that he was deeply attracted to, that's when he went into manipulative grooming mode. and after, you know, a long selection process determining how close he could get, how many red lines he could cross, how much the child would be willing to tolerate in an unknown number of cases, I believe he did cross that line and sexually abuse children, not in a violent way.

1:51:42The distinction you're making between you believe he was a pedophile and maybe not a child molester, but you believe yes, is that you could be a pedophile without acting on it, you're saying. Yeah, they call themselves virtuous pedophiles. And so there are support groups for, it's almost always men, of course, who are attracted to children and who have committed to never acting on it because they know it's wrong and it's immoral and it's harmful. And they call themselves virtuous. And I know I have to hand them credit. If they don't act on it, then nobody is harmed. And, you know, I think that's what Michael Jackson should have done.

1:52:21He should have gotten help, tried to redirect his impulses. And if he couldn't redirect them to, you know, maybe young 18-year-old men, you know, which is, you know, what they call twinks in the gay community. I'm not gay, but, you know, I know the term. You know, if he couldn't do that, then he had a moral responsibility to not act on those desires. And I believe he did. We did talk about before, there's tape of Michael Jackson talking about how Joe Jackson, who is without a question abusive of his children, but I don't know about sexually abusive, but physically abusive. But there is tape of Michael Jackson saying that his father, before the beatings, used to make him get naked and used to rub oil all over Michael before he beat him with the cord of an iron.

1:53:10Now, that's just bizarre. I mean, it's just, I've never heard of the most abusive dads we've heard of in the news, forcing a child to get naked and oiling him up. So that's strange. That's definitely strange. And, you know, sometimes with child abuse, sexual abuse, it can perpetuate itself. Like if it was done to you, there seems to be a higher likelihood that you're going to do it to somebody else. There's no allegation that he beat any children, but I mean the possibility of sexual abuse unconfirmed, but it was something that was really jarring to listen to. Joe Jackson was not a good man. And it seems like the entire family admits that because they're all behind this movie and he's portrayed terribly in it.

1:53:52So clearly everyone, including Catherine Jackson, who's Joe Jackson's wife and Michael's mom, who's still alive, she was fine with him being portrayed as a complete abusive bastard too. So like, this is not a good person if we're looking for the wise and look how Michael died. You know, look, look how he died. Like he was, he became a drug addict long before he actually died. Now he'd been through a lot. He's got that terrible burn. He'd been dragged through the criminal courts. And if you were innocent, that would really stress you. But you have to wonder what was haunting him so badly that he needed propofol to get any rest at night, to fall asleep at night.

1:54:31What kind of demons were in there? and I'm not sure we'll ever have a definitive answer, you know, without like a videotape or a photo, we're going to be left to figure it out ourselves. And then the next question, as I said, to then ask ourselves whether it matters when it comes to our ability to enjoy the art as opposed to the artist. I don't know. Have you thought about that, Andrew? As somebody who's been like neck deep in this, are you able to like enjoy a Michael Jackson song or watch the movie and admire the dancing? Yeah, I watched the movie and I really enjoyed it. I mean, it's not something deep or profound, but it's fantastic entertainment.

1:55:11Michael Jackson was an absolute musical genius. And, you know, he had a lot. He was also an incredible humanitarian who gave millions and millions to charity. And the music is fantastic. I think of it as, you know, do you like the music of the Rolling Stones? Well, the Rolling Stones had sex with 13-year-old groupies all through the 1970s. You know, Roman Polanski is a great director, and he also raped a 13-year-old girl in 1977 and probably did more than that. Jerry Lee Lewis. Jerry Lee Lewis. I mean, the list goes on and on. Wasn't it the girl he married 13? Yeah, exactly. And that was a huge scandal back then.

1:55:56and it was technically legal. And, you know, if you look at contemporary artists, Picasso was a bastard. And all through history, you know, Leonardo da Vinci was a pedophile and a pederast in his time. And so I think you can enjoy the art, you can enjoy the music, but always with an asterisk. And the asterisk must mean that no matter how rich you are, no matter how gifted, no matter how famous, if you abuse your intelligence and gifts to exploit children, then that must always be a part of your legacy. It must always be mentioned, and anything that doesn't mention it is a whitewash and dishonest.

1:56:38Totally fair. I love the way you said that. And I completely agree with you. Andrew Hammel, thank you so much for writing this piece. Again, it's at Quillette. If you Google it, you'll find it. But the name is Never, Neverland, the new Michael Jackson biopic and the campaign to whitewash the king of pop's reputation by Andrew Hammel, H-A-M-M-E-L. Thank you. Thank you. This is an important conversation. We really appreciate it. You're very welcome. I really enjoyed it. All the best to you. Thanks. Wow. Wow. Gosh, I'm like, I couldn't stop reading the piece. I sent it to so many people because there's even more detail in the piece if you read it, which maybe you will now.

1:57:24I first listened to the audio. You know, I love my audio news. And then I printed it out because I was like, I know I need to lay eyes on this piece and actually read it, which I did multiple times. Well worth your time because there's even more details in there. And it's well-written too. I'd love to know your thoughts because I feel like you guys have been through this with me now. We've done several in-depth looks at this. And at some point, I will do the deeper dive into Wade Robson and James Safechuck with you because I do know a lot about those two. What do you think? What do you think? Those two questions.

1:57:56Was he? And does it matter to you when it comes to your ability to enjoy the art? I mean, I know it matters to you, But like, does it matter to you when it comes to the ability to enjoy his songs, his dancing, this movie, the rehabilitation that's underway of his image? What do you think about it? Email me. It's Megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at MeganKelley.com. Back live with you all on Friday. See you then. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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