The Full BOMBSHELL Lance Twiggs Video, Plus New Robinson Texts Revealed, with Geragos, Murphy, Aronberg, Eiglarsh, and Frei | Ep. 1356

28:00It was a Supreme Court justice. I don't remember his name, but somebody said, it seems like all you do in the Supreme Court is you split hairs. And he said, yeah, that's what we do. We split hairs. We distinguish the indistinguishable and we chop logic. And that's what we do. These rulings are are all about the long game. Every single one of these things is going to go up and receive the highest level of appellate scrutiny. And again, this is just a preliminary hearing. It's like if if I had a nickel for every time I've seen Charlie Kirk trial on the Internet right now, this is just a prelim. It's it's it's all it is, is it's termination of probable cause.

28:38And this judge is trying to be careful, and he's indulging the defense because this is an easy way to go through and kind of throw the defense some bones that won't have any impact on the long-term proceedings. And these are all cheap gimmies to the defense as far as I'm concerned. So I think he's being very careful. I was surprised to learn that he hasn't been on the bench that long. But I think he's doing a pretty good job. I wasn't. He's too indulgent. A more seasoned judge would say noted overruled, moved up and move on like every single objection. And this defense lawyer objects to everything.

29:20Yeah. So every. So I mean, I was commenting on this the other day and he he wants to hear argument on everything to the point where the defense lawyer has no argument. Repeatedly, she's had to say, I stand on my earlier argument. She can't. She has nothing to add. she's just trying to slow it up. And meanwhile, Erica Kirk has no rights in there, no rights, notwithstanding the Utah law. It's very aggravating that she and his parents can't even see the evidence that's being shown that I'm not talking about the stuff that gets redacted because they've decided it's too prejudicial to be considered for the prelim.

29:56The stuff that is being admitted but not shown to the media, she's being treated like media. She's not media. She's the victim. The parents are the victims. Why don't they get to see it? So this is this is what's known as Marcy's Law, Megan. So California has the same thing. And Mark, did you know that it's the same amendment to the to the Utah Constitution? It's Article one, Section 28, which I don't know how that works statutorily, but it's literally the exact same statute with the exact same numbers, Megan. So I do Marcy's Law representation on behalf of victims, particularly in sexual assault case, so I'm really familiar with this.

30:29And you're right. It is. And their comments about it being toothless. It is what is known as a right without a remedy. Victims have rights. It's recognized. But the person, the only people that can appeal it are the defense. So once again, the court has to be really careful about that because every single one of these things is going to go up. And the Utah Supreme Court has already weighed in. And this is all going to run through the 10th circuit. What the judge is doing, I think, is he is ensuring that this thing withstands. He knows how strong the evidence is. He's going to bind him over. He's going to go to trial.

31:05He's going to be found guilty and he's going to be sentenced to death. And that's what this is all about. It's so the case doesn't come back and he doesn't have to put the family through it again. Like my Rodney Alcala case, we had to try that three times and the victim's family had to go over three times, which is devastating for a family. I would caution doing Marcy's law work myself. I would caution their Marcy's law attorneys like you don't you want to speak up for the victims. You want to make sure their voices are heard, but you don't want to actually interfere with the process and force the judge into making a ruling that's going to get the case dismissed.

31:40The time for the defense showing Erica Kirk, the exhibits and Mr. and Mrs. Kirk, the exhibits is not going to get this. No, the time that's ridiculous. I agree. It's not going to. There's no reason to exclude them from to treat them like press. They're not press. Here's forget my word. First of all, and the other thing I've just got to say, it's it's it's a bone of contention. The judge continues to call her Miss Kirk. She is not Miss Kirk. She is Mrs. Kirk. She was very notably married to Charlie Kirk. That's why she's there. She's the mother of his children. She's his widow. Show some respect.

32:15Get it right. Yes. It's the same way judges should learn how to like in Idaho, how the judge still couldn't pronounce, you know, Madison Mogan's name and Zanna Kurnodal. Right. All the way up to the end. It's like learn the names of the victims and their survivors. If you're going to say them as the judge, she's not a miss. He's not even saying Ms. half the time he's saying, miss, it's it's annoying. And most women who take their husband's name or even just become married. I'm fine when people call me Mrs. Brunt, even though I didn't take Doug's last name. You the Mrs. is an honorarium that is meaningful to you.

32:49Yes. It's an honor to your husband and to the union that you and especially in these circumstances. I know he's not doing it intentionally. And he's just on my last nerve. OK, Mark, I want to finish that thought. No, no, it's Mark's turn. But listen, I've got to play for you, Erica's and the Kirk's family lawyer. Okay, this is him arguing. He's fired up this morning. Take a listen. And we appreciate the court is trying to balance here, but the Kirk family's waited 10 months for this hearing. And they have a right to be here. And they have a right to hear the evidence. They have a right to see and feel what's going on in this courtroom.

33:27Just like they want to understand, Judge, what you are what you are viewing. They want to see the evidence. And we understand you have to balance, but at a minimum, this courtroom needs to be open for the evidence to be displayed openly in this courtroom, for them to see it. The Utah constitution gives them the right to be here and to be here and not to see the evidence. What's the point of being here? We ask you to let the evidence be seen in the courtroom, please. Thank you for your time. Thank you, counsel. okay mark garagos go ahead you've been so patient this may have been the most frustrating 30 minutes sitting here listening to this and you know i love you you know i adore you and you know i've known you forever let me have it it's fine yes but you are so wrong on so many counts and at least matt who is the consummate gentleman you know now why i always hated going up against him i loved him as a person, but he's he's lethal when you go up against him.

34:29He articulated exactly what this judge is doing, contrary to the characterization that this is. By the way, I think Lanceto, before the OJ case, was one of if he was on the shortlist to be in the California Supreme Court, he was one of the most well-received judges. I know that he got caricatured by OJ, but Lanceto, He you're just completely undermining your credibility before you launch your diatribe. I think nobody has ever done a full throated defense of who he was when before he did that trial. Judge, by the way, to Matt's point, there's no way you watch this judge and you think he's new on the bench.

35:10He's doing exactly. Yes, there is a way because I watched him and I said, this guy's new on the bench. He doesn't have the confidence. And my team checked and he's been on the bench since May. And I was right. There is a way it happened this morning. come to this case through the even though you're not a former prosecutor, you look at this as kind of the rabid prosecutorial viewpoint. And that is not the not not true. Not in this case. I'll tell you why. You're normally right about me. One hundred percent. You're right. And my all my instincts are more prosecution oriented. However, in this case, my friend was killed.

35:43In this case, I know the murder victim. And what I really want is for the right person to go to prison. And so I think Tyler Robinson is the trigger man, no question. But I am not closed minded to his defense. I'm not. I actually like because it's more what's most important to me here is getting it right. Well, so look, you both those things can be right. He can be the trigger man. Number one. Number two, this judge, to Matt's point, if this judge does not do what he's doing, you do not understand the legal colonoscopy that a death penalty conviction gets. When Matt talks about the 10th circuit.

36:20You know what he's doing? He's damning with faint praise the 9th circuit because he's been on the receiving end of doing decades of law, decades of law at the 9th. And the IAC. No, I know. The 9th is ridiculous, but it has gotten better. I have to say, we did a deep dive on this last year. Trump got a bunch of judges on that 9th circuit court of appeals, and it's not nearly as bad as it used to be, but they're all generally not so great. They're all generally stacked with libs. But what you have to do, the stack of libs is that look, I'm old enough to remember when the liberals were the ones who challenged authority as opposed to wanted totalitarian authority.

36:59So that's that's kind of a an ironic situation. But the fact is, this judge has to do what he's doing. He's doing it very, very adroitly. And Matt's point also. And I found this out kind of ironically during Menendez last year. Marcy's law, which is the victim's right, which is a constitutional right, is a right without a remedy. And when I say in the Menendez case, it was on full display. I have argued for years that the victims are a proxy for the prosecution, that when they support what the prosecution wants, the victims are right there front and center. When they don't support what the prosecution wants, they're kind of dismissed.

37:46But there is no real enforcement mechanism for victims. It's a right that's enshrined. And Matt, I did not know it's both Article 1, Section 28 in both constitutions. It's an amazing kind of coincidence. But there is everything that lawyer is saying for Erica Kirk is true to some extent, but it's not really accurate. When he says she's got a right to see all these things, the prosecution is not limited in what they can show or share with her. So, yes, the courtroom is limited. Yes, the public is limited. That is so they don't have a challenge later on to a tainted jury pool, because all judges usually kick the can down the road and say, I'll solve that pretrial publicity or prejudice in jury selection.

38:40But if you've got a jury selection and a jury pool that is completely tainted by all of the stuff that is now inadmissible, you just make your job infinitely harder. So that he's doing the right thing. To your point about Tyler Robinson. Yes, there is probable cause right now to have Tyler Robinson held to answer, which means bound over for trial. But I will tell you something else. I'd love to hear Matt's thoughts. I think right now you could clearly get Mr. Twiggs or whatever his name is also held to answer for trial as a co-defendant. There is more than enough probable cause that's been developed so far on twigs.

39:25This idea that he's a subject and not a co-conspirator is nonsense. He'd be held to answer 99 times out of 99 in almost every preliminary hearing court that I've ever been in. I agree with you on twigs 100 percent, but they've given him use immunity. I'm sure Matt has a lot of thoughts on this exchange and wants to get in still on my miss versus missus. I know. But yeah, well, why don't you do that? And then I'll ask you about use immunity and why Lance Twig's not being charged. OK, so number one, what Mark was saying, just to just to pick up on that, the time to sit down with Erica Kirk and the lawyers is in the prosecutor's office and to show her everything.

40:03So the argument that she's not receiving all the information is a completely different one than what the public should see. And again, Mark's exactly right. That is so they avoid the challenge long term of the jury pool was tainted because we saw that. We saw that in Koberger. The jury pool has been tainted and they had to do a change of venue. There's all kinds of problems that ensue from that. And I've worked with victims. Megan, every murder case I did, I sat down with the victim's family. I gave my personal cell number. I did that for 21 years. So I am pro-victim, victim-oriented. I represent victims now.

40:38But the place for that is in the prosecutor's office. not in not in a courtroom if it's going to create issues because nothing is worse than a case coming back. I think the misses versus miss, of course, that's a he's misspeaking. That's, you know, I can't take issue with that. You're right. He should he should clean it up. But look, this is this is about the long game. And in Utah, he's actually looking at the death penalty. And you want to be careful. There's a crass joke that I'm sure we've all heard about the two bulls standing on the hill. and it's probably inappropriate for me to share it, but it's like there's a young bull and an old bull and there's a whole bunch of cows down in the pasture and the old bull and the young bull says to the old bull, let's run down there and have sex with one of those cows.

41:23And the old bull says, I got a better idea. Let's walk down there and have sex with all of those cows. That's how, in a very crass way, you have to look at death penalty cases. It's step-by-step. You have to be super careful and super methodical because if you base one single call on emotion, and look, Megan, I'm with you on this. I've had friends who were murdered. I've had two friends, actually three that were murdered, but a good friend of mine got murdered in law school. And we cannot base decisions ever on the emotions of the moment. You have to look at it long-term. Long-term is you have to go very carefully, step-by-step, and look, what the defense is doing here, I'm seeing something completely different.

42:05There's the frustration of watching the antics. And one of the reasons why my friend Mark Yargos is so deadly in front of a jury is juries like him. The personalities of these lawyers is not going to translate. He's so likable. It's annoying. What's that? Thanks a lot. He's so likable. It's annoying. No, I know. Listen, you have no idea what it's like going up against him. It's terrible because everybody likes the guy. It must be. So so but but you look at this. We watched this during the we watched this during the the the Corey Richens case. Right. That woman, it's the same defense lawyer. She got up and and and tactically, you know, they're doing they're going through the motions as annoying as it is as a prosecutor.

42:44I love seeing that because their personalities in this, they're it's called Keenan counsel, the other lawyer that's making a lot of these objections. He just kind of it's like nails on a chalkboard listening to him talk. He aggravates the hell out of me. And as a as a viewer, I, you know, I want to throw throw peanuts on my screen as a as a prosecutor. You love to see that because when you have somebody that stands up and makes obnoxious, obstreperous, pedantic arguments every 30 seconds, a jury is going to hate that. And they will have zero credibility when they get into the penalty phase. And that is the best thing for Erica Kirk and everybody who is friends with Charlie Kirk.

43:21Matt is so spot on. I have had cases where the prosecutor or if it's a civil case where you're fighting over other people's money, the other person has zero jury appeal and they don't understand it. They just don't understand how repulsive they are. Repulsive in the sense that repel people against them. A juror, what happens in a trial, as opposed to a preliminary hearing, in a trial, each side is the voice. Matt is up there giving voice to some, normally, because we did so many cases that were dead bodies, literally, well, people who have no voice. I'm giving voice, hopefully, to somebody who never is going to take the stand.

44:08And so you become the proxy. If as the proxy, somebody doesn't want to help you in the jury, the last thing you're going to want to do, and I tell this to my new lawyers, why would you antagonize the jurors? I can understand actually antagonizing the judge sometime if the judge is not likable. Matt and I have always commented on that when we're in a courtroom where the jurors don't like the judge or the judges issuing OSCs on jurors because they're five minutes late and the jurors want to revolt. At that point, I almost purposefully will antagonize the judge. But absent that, that's your audience.

44:50You've got 12 people. Here, your audience is the public. You don't care. I have not had the pleasure of watching any of these lawyers in trial, but I push back on the objecting at a prelim. At a prelim, I think all bets are off when you're on the defense. You should be pushing. You should be going after the witnesses. You should be objecting. You should be testing everything out. It's the only way as a defense lawyer that you can refine. It's a wonderful kind of a test runs. OK, I got it. I got it. I mean, I disagree. And I disagree that the judge has to indulge all of this. And, you know, you can sort of be you can blanket.

45:29Got it. Your blanket objections unduly prejudicial on the statement. She's made it 25 times. We have to go through it each and every time each whatever. OK, fine. But but let's talk about Lance Twiggs, because, you know. So if you hear it's a very that Turkey Tom report, which we've been looking into for the better part of six months on our team, like running it by the FBI. Like we've actually done a deep dive on that report and it hasn't fallen apart. It's been repeated by some others. It hasn't gone far and wide because the original source behind it refuses to come forward and identify him or herself.

46:08But it does paint a picture, Matt, I mean, literally with pictures of their alleged apartment of like a dark, destructive, sick home in which Tyler Robinson for at least some large portion of the final year was OK, was like holding it together while this roommate was on a trans spiral into the depths of the house. of inhumanity. And it does make you wonder what happened. And but it also makes me much more inclined to believe he probably did know more than he's letting on. And now we've heard his DNA is on the towel that was used to wrap the gun. OK, it's from their home. Maybe he just touched the towel.

46:59I get it. Also, the screwdriver that they found on the roof that the prosecution says was used to assemble the gun by Tyler Robinson. I mean, maybe he touched the screwdriver and making all his crazy, crazy concoctions on that table. I don't know. But he also was the one corresponding with Tyler in those text messages that sound somewhat manufactured. It was not you, was it, Tyler? It was I, my love. I'm overdoing it. But this is why a lot of people think that it's a fed behind this whole thing or it's a country or somebody's manufacturing these, whereas it could be a real or be the two of them doing this little cosplaying act to keep Lance twigs out of the feds crosshairs when Tyler knew he'd either be dead or arrested, as his own note says.

47:47Anyway, what do you make of it all? Well, the description of the house reminded me of the place I lived in law school. But look, there's an old adage crimes and held on evangelists as witnesses. OK, and we see this all the time when you get a gang case. Like, your witnesses are often little gangsters. Or if you have a crime in jail, you always have criminals that are your witnesses. The question is, is he telling the truth? And the other thing is, the way I see it, and I'd love Mark's thoughts on this, I think all they have to do with Lance Twiggs is lay the foundation, right, Mark? You've got a note written by Tyler Robinson, which is incriminating as hell, the one found under the computer keyboard.

48:26and the text messages, all they really need him for is to talk about that. I'm curious to see what else he said. But there's also a love affair here, and this goes to motive by Tyler Robinson, that he's somehow defending the honor of his love, which is how he refers to Lance Twiggs. So the furry world is weird. The idea that Lance is weird kind of fits perfectly in my mind, that this is going to be Tyler Robinson's gone off the deep end. He's decided that he's going to embrace the trans community and and whatever. But then going and committing a murder, you know, as a result of it, it all kind of it fits in a way.

49:10So that's my take. What does it mean that Lance is getting use immunity, Matt, instead of getting charged as he has getting use. He has to, Megan. They have to give him use. And especially, I think, when they go through that. Yeah. So So there's two kinds of immunity. There's immunity immunity or what's known as transactional immunity. That's like, you know, you confessed everything you did and you received complete legal absolution. Those are actually very rare. I only did that twice in my entire career. The other is what's known as use immunity. That's also known in the federal world as queen for a day where you sit down and they immunize you against the statements that you make in that interview and the derivative of that.

49:48But if independent evidence arises outside of your interview or what they learn or are able to glean from it and further investigation, anything else separate, they can still prosecute you for that. So in other words, you're given sort of carte blanche to talk about what happened, and then they agree not to prosecute you based on those sentences or those statements, if that makes sense. So that's the common way it's done, and they have to do that. Otherwise, he would have a Fifth Amendment right against testifying when the trial comes around or even at the prelim. If he didn't have it, he'd expose himself federally.

50:28That's right. He has to do it. He has a right to counsel. They have to immunize him so that he can participate in the... Do they have a right to cross-examine, Matt? Yes. Ultimately, they certainly do. But you hit the nail on the head on that one, Megan. There's no right to cross-examine somebody at a preliminary hearing. hearsay is admissible in Utah, just like it is in California. That's been appealed to the umpteenth that's gone to the U.S. Supreme Court. It's okay. So why are you saying otherwise, Mark Garagos? Because in California, as Matt will tell you, when you do a hearsay prelim, we call it a 115 prelim that was based on the proposition.

51:05The only way the California Supreme Court said that that withstood constitutional scrutiny is there had to be a corresponding section, which there is in California called 866, which allows the defense to make a proffer to say, I want to either cross examine the declarant, the hearsay declarant. And here's why, because there's exculpatory evidence that I can show on cross examination, or I want to call. Well, we're not in California anymore. Yeah, but I got to go. I got to go because we're 20 seconds to the heartbreak. Are we coming back with these guys, Steve? Yes, we are. We're holding over. So I'll let you finish that on the opposite the side of this break, and hopefully we'll go to the Lance Twiggs testimony as well.

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53:34Back with me now are the hosts of In the Well. You can find that podcast just by typing in In the Well or MK True Crime in your little purple podcast button on your phone or check it out on youtube.com. Mark Garagos and Matt Murphy, two lawyers, criminal lawyers of lifetime experience who know what they are talking about. Guys, they're still in a break now and what we've been told is that But now the prosecution, this is like never ending. Now the prosecution has agreed to show the video in its redacted final form to defense counsel, which is what's happening right now behind closed doors, incorporating all the only the lines that have been agreed upon.

54:17And then they'll show it to us. Well, no, I mean, they'll play it for us. we'll be able to hear audio only, which again, makes no sense. Why don't we get to see the audio or the video? It's stupid. Like what constitutional right is violated by me laying eyes on Lance Twiggs? Then if he's holding exhibits, don't show the exhibits. Why is this so hard? Everything's got, it's like, here's part of the problem. And I realized like we shouldn't be having this preliminary hearing for people who have their own theories about what happened here. But the reality is it actually like. I think it's good for posterity.

54:59I don't think you ever convince a conspiracy theorist not to believe his or her conspiracy. You just don't. I've dealt with enough of them over the course of my life. They never they never come out of it ever, no matter what you put up in front. We literally could have Tyler Robinson on camera saying, I did it. I did it alone. I did it because there was too much hate. I did go confess to my parents and then they called the deputy and I turned myself in. And the people would still say it's a lie. It's just. I've had so many of these over my 24 years in news that I know this to be true. But just for posterity sake, I think it's valuable to have.

55:37And the video and the audio of the guy saying he confessed to me just the mere fact that he's not going to be on camera is going to set a lot of people off. Like, was he at a gunpoint? You know, like how was he really giving this voluntarily? It's like these are just games. They're games that we're playing because of the defense's every objection. And it leads to a frustratingly incomplete record. I get it for now. But who the hell knows when the trial is going to be Matt Murphy. So this is what's going to be out there for months and months and months on end. Yeah. So going back to the judge for a second, Megan, Mark and I were talking off camera a second ago.

56:19One of the things did you soften to my position? No, but I want to say something in the hopes of making you feel a little better. okay one of the things that you see oftentimes is when you see defense lawyers engaged in this that they're going through the process but this is a long it's a long process right and we're going to get into a trial that's going to be a lot longer than this prelim and the the defense objecting like this and challenging the court on everything eventually wears down on every judicial officer which means he's they're going to get on his last nerve at a certain point i predict probably halfway through the trial and the jury will see that.

56:58And even though the jury's not supposed to take the cue from the judge, they always do. And this is going to, if, if this continues and look, it's going to continue because we, we saw this in the Corey Richens trial, the same lawyer and that the guy that she's got up there right now is he has half the personality that she does. And she is, um, she was not exactly sparkling in front of that other Utah jury. So this is, believe it or not, it's frustrating now. This is good long term because this is the type of stuff that that really will have an impact at the end. This kind of object to everything nails on a chalkboard, slow everything down.

57:35It's going to get worse in front of the jury. The jury's going to hate it. And then there there's going to be no credibility left when they stand up and say, don't execute my client. And by the way, especially at the trial, Gary goes that if we believe the prosecutor, Lance Twiggs is going to show up in person and be sitting in the witness box. And this business of like that one line needs to come out and no one can see him and he can't be confronted with exhibits. That's all out the window. We are going to hear from Lance Twiggs if he is willing to show up there and he'll get cross examined. But that testimony is coming out at some point.

58:12Yeah, but you have you've answered kind of your question by that, that by saying it, it doesn't need to come out and it shouldn't come out now because you've got you're not you don't want to if you're a judge have to change venue. You don't want to pollute your jury. But Mark, what's the typical rule? Well, like in a typical case, wouldn't the preliminary hearing be completely on the public record on the record and everything accessible by the public. Right. And in a typical case, we're not going to be covering it breathlessly on a podcast. In a typical case, it's not going to be covered to this degree.

58:50It's not going to be what's called what I always call a supersize. There were breaths. There were breaths. It was not breathless. Everyone here. The one thing I was going to say is, is during the break, Matt and I agreed that we would give this judge a plus marks. He is doing a spectacular job and a very difficult job. You can put your head in your hands, but he's doing what he needs to do. You can't. I know people want there's this kind of short attention span or this immediate gratification. He's not looking at that. To Matt's point, the bull joke, he's got more guts than I do. I wouldn't have told that joke.

59:35The bull joke, having sex with every cow is basically what you have to do in a case like this because it's capital litigation. It's just no way around it. I Matt and I were talking on the break. Some of the things he's been hoisted on and I've been hoisted on in murder cases, it would blow your mind. We can tell you stories, both of us. You just can't do what you kind of reflexively want to do, which is just mow through this to get to the conviction. It doesn't work. I don't know, boss, Megan. I got it. Who taught me how to do capital case litigation, which is death penalty cases, which is very, very specialized.

1:00:17And the old saying is death is different. And he used to say his name is Brian Brown. He's a legend. I know Mark knows him well. he he said give them everything they want referring to the defense give them everything they want until it's something you really need okay and that's it that's a good way of looking at it because like mark just said the things that you get reversed for can be so innocuous and you just don't want to put the family through it again you want to maximize the chances of this being withheld on appeal being upheld on appeal and so you never have to do it again and you let the the poor crook family put this behind them to the to the greatest extent possible another thing they're dealing with is they're dealing with all of these insane conspiracy theories that are out there and i think that's why we're seeing such a detailed preliminary hearing mark or i on a regular murder case you without a without a capital case component to this without a death penalty lingering out there um this is a one-day prelim you put on the the rifle you do the it's two hours yeah yeah Literally two hours.

1:01:20And and they're doing this, I think it's interesting because there's there's been so much public discourse. I've seen some insane things on the Internet, mostly championed by Candace Owens that are it is so loony tinfoil hat out there. And I think that's hard on the on the victim's family. So I also want to commend the prosecution for going through this, even though it's five days, because it really does change the public discourse on it. We're about to separate those that are open minded to other defense theories from the actual lunatics. It's like the probators with Brian Coburn, right? All of that, the loony theories.

1:02:00Megan, you are right. The reason this is five days, and I know Phil Holloway, he loses his mind over this, but the reason is five days clearly is they're trying to quell some of the kind of rumors or conspiracy theories. But your point is the most astute when it comes to that. Nothing is going to dispel that. And you put something on, all that does is feed it and amplify it. And so that's no good. It's basically the prosecutorial version of no good deed goes unpunished it's all it does is hard that stuff i mean i don't agree with candace's theory of this case but i have to say i i genuinely believe she was traumatized by watching her friend die i i can relate to it and um i think she's in earnest and and i think she she distrusts authority i don't agree with her again matt but i just like and i know people have very strong feelings about her.

1:02:53I just I think she's in her own search for what she believes happened here. And she has zero trust in official words on anything. She's making. Yeah. I'm not quite that cynical. She's making it harder for Erica Kirk and the entire Kirk family. She's also making things harder on the prosecution. And I and look, I don't know her. I've never appeared in front of her. I got nothing against her. I got no axe to grind. But she's she is making things harder for the good guys on this. And Erica Kirk asked her to to stop with the stuff. And she said she would. And then Erica Kirk asked her, I think, twice.

1:03:30And she's continued. She's she's quadrupled down on it. And she sounds insane to me. And again, I don't know her. I would I would debate her any time on on some of this stuff because it's insane. Like the Israel didn't kill Charlie Kirk. Sorry, they just didn't. This is this is this is a murder case. It's a death penalty case. This is what they look like. This is what killers sound like. This is this is how these things actually occur in reality. You got a guy who's in love with a trans guy who decides he's going to kill somebody because some somehow that would help him. That's America today. That's that's that is I mean, Charlie Kirk himself.

1:04:08I don't know. I'm sure you've seen the post assassination culture, you know, and and Tom proved him right. It's like, hey, buddy, you killed the guy and you proved him right at the same time. All right, Matt, if we're going to go down this lane, then we can go down this lane because it was Andrew Colvett of Turning Point who turned over to the FBI Charlie's criticisms of his Jewish donors and his threats to leave the pro -Israel cause right before he was murdered. That was Turning Point, and I love Andrew Colvett, and he did that because he's an honest guy, and he said, you know what? They should investigate everything.

1:04:44they should investigate who else had an axe to grind with Charlie and who else might be motivated he's not some conspiracy theorist like why I was told this myself and it's been now been reported by her and others that there were at least 11 there's a difference in 11 versus 14 Israel only cell phones on the campus of UVU that day like not from from Israeli citizens in other words open accounts opened in Israel. And the NSA knew that shit within two minutes because they locked those scenes down and they can tell you exactly what cell phones were on scene. I don't say that means Israel killed Charlie, but it's one of the reasons why both of these are reasons why all along I've said we should we should be.

1:05:27You should not be saying to her or anybody else, you're not allowed to ask that question. You are allowed to ask questions that it is smart to say who else had a motive. And when it comes to these lone gunman assassinations, you know, Butler and now this people always ask, was he put up to it? You know, is there some nefarious government source? Some people could believe in CIA and MK ultra. Some people believe the CIA actually killed like JFK. You know, you you've heard them all. Sure. And I I'm like you, my instincts are as lawyers. I I think the three of us are much more evidence based. OK, great.

1:06:07You have a theory. Show me the evidence and persuade me with something that's admissible in a court of law that I can argue with. But I well, that's where we are. But not everybody's like we are. And it doesn't necessarily make them a nutcase to not trust the official government narrative. Well, what about just I didn't get Matt? Maybe I'll save it for in the well. But I wanted Matt's reaction. You don't think there's enough to have in to have charged Lance Twiggs in this case? I think that you really need to show that there was some sort of something beforehand or even after where he's helping.

1:06:45You need the DNA is not enough for me. And, you know, Mark, I've done conspiracy cases where people have been yelling at me why I haven't included people. Sometimes I've included people that I heard the exact opposite. You know, how come how come that person's involved? And it just going along with what Megan just said, it's I follow the evidence and I call it as I see it. And the DNA means nothing. You always get you always get. I agree. I've got I can't tell you the number of murder cases that I've had. Of course, especially with with the increasing sensitivity. Mark, then what do you like to indict Lance with?

1:07:19I think that Lance, if on the before, and if you read the, actually, I was going to say, you're the one who put the idea in my head with some of the things that you had talked about five days before, four days before, and then the text that referenced knowledge by him, by Lance prior to this. If I'm the defense, I'm all over that because there is something more to this. This idea of this, of Tyler Robinson doing this alone so far, based on everything I've seen, I would be all over that. When Matt says the DNA alone, he's right. I've defended. That's not to say I have defended murder cases where guys got held to answer because I can think of one where his fingerprint was on a mattress frame where the stabbing took place.

1:08:11We got it dismissed. But that was enough to get you past freedom. Now, you've got DNA on several items that were essential. Let me pause you, Mark. Let's check in with what's happening in the court because Agent Davis just took the stand and this is who they're going to get the video in through. So let's listen, see if they're doing it. Finally, this meeting is to use your statement here instead of your testimony at a preliminary hearing. Understand that? So here we go. In order to do that, I need to place you under oath and also give you an admonition about false statements, okay? First, you do solemnly swear or affirm that the evidence you shall give in this issue shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

1:08:56So help you God? Yes. I also need to notify you that you are notified the statements you are about to make may be presented to a magistrate or a judge in lieu of your sworn testimony at a preliminary examination. Any false statement you make and that you do not believe to be true may subject you to criminal punishment as a Class A misdemeanor. Do you understand that? Yes. It potentially could be used for punishment as a higher offense as obstruction of justice.

1:09:30In addition, I just want to make sure that our recording here is clear that you've also been given a federal agreement and a state agreement granting you immunity from prosecution for materials that you discuss now. Do you understand that? Mm-hmm. Okay. First, we're going to cover some of the things that you've already talked about, but to make it as part of this record. First, what's your name? Full name with middle name or just first and last? First and last is fine. Okay, my name is Lance Twiggs. And do you know Tyler Robinson? Yes, I do. Yeah, I do. And is the same Tyler Robinson that's been charged with the shooting of Charlie Kirk?

1:10:15Yes. And would you say when you first met Tyler? I think it was 2023. I've known him longer than that, though. That was, I think, the first time I met him in person. Okay. Okay.

1:10:33And will you describe your relationship with Tyler when you first met him anyway? When I first met him, I didn't know him super well. He was just a new roommate. So I knew he knew my friend group and I knew he liked playing games, but that's about it when we first, like when he first moved him. Okay. Before we go on, I realized my mic was muted at the outset. Was your mic on? Okay. I'm going to repeat those admonitions just to make sure we got it recorded. Okay. So, again, I placed you under oath. Just to make a record, I'm going to do it again. You just always swear that the evidence you shall give in this issue shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth shall be caught.

1:11:24Yes. And again, I'm going to give you the false statement. Sorry, hold on. They're saying that it's echoing. I think this one's mic is on. Okay, sorry. Okay, you're not on me, my mic. That's fine. Okay. So we should be good. All right. Is that mic on? Yes. Okay, great. All right. Okay, sorry about that interruption. All right, so you said when you first met, you were roommates? Yeah. Okay. And then at some point, your relationship progressed to something more than roommates, right? Mm-hmm. When was that? I think we started dating two or three months after we moved in. Okay. And where did you live at that time?

1:12:12St. George in an apartment complex. And is that apartment the same place you lived on September 10th? Yes.

1:12:25When you lived there with Tyler, were you in the same room? Did you live in the same room or different rooms? I was separate rooms. And at that time, let's say September of 2025, what were you doing with your life? Were you working, school? I was working. I was doing bathtub and shower repair and stuff in new construction. Okay. How about Tyler? I think he was both working. I think he was working for an electrician company then, and he was also in a trade school for being a, I don't know, higher ranking electrician. I'm not sure how the trade system works for that. Okay. But, yeah, I think he was both.

1:13:09What was his typical workday like? I think he'd leave around 7, generally, and get back around 3 to 4. depending on like where the job was and how long it was for the day. And then on certain days of the week during school, like semesters, he would then later in the day, I think around five or six, go to school. So, yeah. Okay. Let's jump to September 10th. Did he spend the night in the apartment the night of September 9th into September 10th? Yeah, he did. Yes. Do you know when he left the apartment on September 10th? I don't know an exact time. I just know he left early. I heard him leaving, and he just said he had a long drive to work that day, so he was leaving early.

1:14:05So early. Any guess as to when that was? I don't know. I would have thought it was 5 a.m. because that's when, like, an early workday was for him, but it was probably more like 4. Okay. I'm going to have his gum just to make sure that you're... I can do that. You're right in front of your laptop. Oh, here you go. Thank you. Thank you.

1:14:39All right, so what time did you get up on September 10th? Probably like 12 to 1 p.m. You didn't have to work that day? No. And did you hear from Tyler? Did he call or text you before then? No, he sent that message in the group chat I mentioned, but he didn't message me directly at all that day. Okay. When did you first hear from him on September 10th? It was at 11 o 'clock with that, like, automated message. Okay, 11 p.m.? Yeah. What about... He asks you here, remember how I was engraving bullets? Was he engraving bullets before this? Yeah, I don't remember exactly when, but he had said he was planning to go hunting with his family.

1:15:28And he asked me for a... If we had, like, a Dremel, because he said he wanted to engrave messages on bullets. and I just told him where Dremel was and I told him to make sure he doesn't set off a bullet on accident in the house. But I didn't really think about it until then. How long before September 10th was this that he asked about the Dremel? I don't remember because he'd been talking about the hunting-slash-camping trip for a couple months, but I don't remember when he was specifically asking to engrave the bullets. So are we talking like a year before? Oh, no, not that long. It would have been, I'd say at most a month before this was when he was asking.

1:16:19Okay. All right. You talked about the note that he left. I want to bring this up, and I should say that these text messages that we've been looking at here, are um bates number 54. okay uh the notes have been titled 16.3 with a note and this is base number 58 do you recognize that that on the screen there yeah yeah what do you recognize it as um That was the note under his keyboard that he was referring to in the first text of that chain. So where did you find this? On his desk underneath his computer keyboard.

1:17:14And I assume you read it? Yeah. And then what did you do with it after you read it? I believe I just put it back down on the desk after I took a picture of it. Okay. And again, the time you read it was probably around 11 o 'clock or so on the 10th? Yes. The night of September 10th? Mm-hmm. All right. And did you ever see that again after you placed it back on his desk? No, I don't think I did. And that was a desk in his bedroom? Yes. And that's a separate bedroom than your bedroom? Yeah. I now want to go to what's been titled 16.2. And do you recognize this series of messages here?

1:18:06Yeah, that was the server of, like, his friend that I was mentioning. Okay, and this is your phone again? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm assuming you recognize it because of the big crack up at the top. And so this is a server. Is this Discord? Yeah, this is Discord. And who are members of this server? I don't want names, just generally. Who are these people who are members of this server? This is his friend group. They play D &D together every week. Okay. And I just want to scroll through this to make sure that I get a chance to take a look at it. Go to the next page.

1:18:53So Tyler Icom, who's that? That's Tyler Robinson. These other people are just others that are members of the server? Yes. Jug, Barnaby, Marina, DM. Yes. Yeah, DM means dungeon master. Most of them are names they're using in the game they're playing currently. Got it. Yeah, it looks like the last text from Tyler looks like it's 8 p.m. And do you know what day this would have been? 8 p.m. on the 10th or the 11th? I would think that would be the 11th. At least I think so, because I don't think on the 10th that he messaged anyone before me at like 11. And he turned himself in on the 11th, right? I thought so, yeah.

1:19:49We're just going to go through this so that we have a record of the messages.

1:19:57Is that an accurate recording of that thread? To my knowledge, yes. And that looks like between September 10th and September 12th. Looks like the last day on this is September 12th. Screen? Yes. Okay. All right, so again, those messages covered from September 10th to the evening of September 11th. Now, September 11th, what time did or did you see Pai, however, on September 11th? Yes. When did you first see him on September 11th? So this is the day after the shooting? Yeah, I saw him when I woke up. like I said he was up and around doing a lot of stuff around the house and then I I think I saw him after that message where I said I'll come home and say I'm doing laundry because I didn't want him going to my parents house right then when he said there was probably cops outside so I went back home and it was just him there and I said bye to him and then he drove off so I just went back to my parents' house.

1:21:13So he acted erratically. Was he pacing? Was he just sitting down, relaxing? No, he was walking around a lot. And that's within the home? Mm-hmm. And did he talk about what he had done? Didn't go into detail. I just asked him in person if what he said was true the night before, and he said it was. I started crying a little bit and said he wishes he hadn't done it, and then kept going around and just doing stuff, I think, to keep himself busy or distracted or something. Did he talk about what he was going to do next?

1:22:02and then eventually said that he would talk to his parents or turn himself over. And when you left, was that how you left understanding that he was going to turn himself in or go to his parents' house? Yeah, and I didn't really want to be at our apartment while any of that was happening, regardless of what went down. Okay.

1:22:28Okay, before he came home, had you seen the press releases, any of the media on this? I'd seen one Instagram link a friend of mine had sent in our group chat. But I hadn't really looked into it at all. And had you seen the images that were released of the suspect? I did the next day. I don't think I saw any on the tent. I'm going to show you a couple of those images. I'm on the FBI's website. You can see the URL there at the top. This is a press release about this event. And here on the screen, you see these, there's, looks like there's two rows of three images. Do you recognize the person in these images?

1:23:22I wouldn't say with 100 % certainty just because of camera quality, but that looks like him in terms of the shoes he's wearing, the sunglasses. I don't think I'd specifically seen him wearing that hat, but he was usually wearing a hat, and then jeans. So it definitely, especially the bottom, the last two, definitely do look like him. Oh, they do look like Tyler Robinson. And you talked about that with your friends, right? His friends, yeah. I don't remember if I talked about it with any of my friends. And then since I didn't have my phone after that for a while and I still am not using social media, I don't know.

1:24:12On my friend's end. Okay. All right, I want to back up a little bit now. We've talked about September 10th, but let me get a little bit of context here. So did you game with Tyler? Yeah. What kind of games? We played some just kind of party games together, like stuff anything that would be multiplayer with a group of friends. There was one game he really liked called Sea of Thieves where he plays like a pirate, and you can fight against people, but most of it's just like fishing, fighting sharks, skeletons kind of stuff. We played some co-op games where it's like you both have to work together to win in whatever way.

1:24:59Way back when, like when I was just out of high school, when I first knew him online, we played some like shooting games together, but I didn't know him very well. So that was just when we had like a whole friend group on to play and he was someone that my friends invited. Okay. Did you and he ever talk about politics? He did more than me. I didn't really still don't really keep up with politics very much. He'd usually talk about stuff he heard on the radio on his drive to work and like their work car since it sounds like their whole crew went in the same car most of the time. But I wouldn't say super consistently because it wasn't a topic I really contributed much on.

1:25:46How about Charlie Kirk? Did you ever talk about Charlie Kirk? I personally had never heard him talk about Charlie Kirk before specifically. Okay. How about political issues? So did you ever talk about gender identity issues and LGBTQ rights? No, not really. Um, usually if he did talk about politics stuff, it was relating to Trump or current, like, policies being, like, issued or voted on, I think. But, yeah. Okay, so before that you have been? For a short time, yes. Okay. And I understand you're going by Luna at some point? To some people, yeah, but not as an overall thing. Okay. Okay. I think that's all the questions I have for this portion.

1:26:50Let me check and see if I've missed anything.

1:26:56The Dremel that you talked about, you said he had asked for that. Is that right? Mm-hmm. And had he told you it was to inscribe bullets? Yeah. and uh so did you have a drama then yeah okay uh it was in our like we had a our apartment we had a section where we kept all our like random tools for household stuff uh in our like uh lower basement level pantry um so yeah okay and did you give that to him or tell him where it was i just told him where it was yeah okay i'm gonna go ahead and end the recording for the 1102 purposes Our sponsor, the Electronic Payments Coalition, says Washington politicians are always getting in your wallet, which you know, and now they're messing with your credit card, too.

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1:30:15All right, that concludes States Exhibit 16. Ms. Hunt. Thank you, Judge. Agent Davis, I asked you yesterday, but I want to remind the court and those present. Were you physically present at the interview we just watched in States Exhibit 16? Yes, I was there. And aside from the court-ordered redactions, did it appear to you to be fair and accurate about what you remember, that interview that day? Yes, yes I do. During that interview, did Mr. Twiggs, was he shown or referenced certain items of evidence? Yes, he was. What types of items of evidence was he shown? It was the text messages between himself and Tyler Robinson, a Discord chat messages, and a handwritten note.

1:31:13And then we also saw in the video he was also shown the FBI press release photos of the potential suspect. That's correct, yes. Have you reviewed all of those items as part of the investigation? Yes, I have. You're familiar with them? Yes. All right, I want to put just on the witnesses' screen what's been marked for identification of states exhibit 16.1. And for the record, this includes the one edit that the court has previously ordered. Thank you. Let me know when you see that on your screen.

1:31:51I see it. I see it now. Do you recognize this? Yes, I do. What is it? This is a photograph of screenshots of text messages between Tyler Robinson and Lance Twiggs. This is a photograph of Lance's phone. So, sorry, you said photograph, you also said screenshot. Can you differentiate or clarify there? Yeah, sorry. These are photographs directly from Lance's phone. How do you know that? In Lance's first interview, he is showing the FBI agents these text messages, describes them to the agents, and at that time his phone was photographed. And you testified, I believe, yesterday that Mr. Twigg's first interview was the morning of September 12th, 2025, is that correct?

1:32:51That's correct, yes. Were you physically present at that interview? No, I was not there. Have you spoken with the officers or agents that were? Yes, I've spoken to one of those agents that was there. And you stated that that first September 12th interview of Mr. Twiggs was recorded? Yes, audio video recorded. Have you reviewed that recording? Yes, I have. So you stated that we're looking in States Exhibit 16.1 at a picture of Mr. Twiggs' phone. Yes. Do you know who took these photos? Yes, it was Agent Larson with FBI. Did you speak with Agent Larson and confirm that? I did. And you kind of made reference to this already, but how did Mr.

1:33:38Twiggs initially show law enforcement the relevant text messages? Yeah, during that first interview on September 12th, he physically shows them the phone and then allows them to photograph the phone. And does he identify it as his phone in that interview? Yes, he does. Does he refer to any particular features of the phone that allows him to make that identification? The second interview refers to the large crack in the upper left screen. So he identifies that in his second interview that was given on April 20th. And according to your review of the recording of his first interview and in speaking with the agents that were there, did he have his personal phone with him at the time of the September 12th interview?

1:34:30Yes, he did. And was this same text thread that we're seeing in States Exhibit 16.1 shown to him during his second interview in, sorry, let me get the date right, April 20th, 2026 at the Utah County Attorney's Office that we just observed part of in States Exhibit 16? Yes, it was shown to him.

1:34:55Was he asked how Tyler Robinson is saved in his phone, like as a contact? Yeah, Justice Tyler. Without saying it, obviously, did he identify Tyler Robinson's phone number? Yes, he did. Did you check the number that Mr. Twiggs gave as Tyler Robinson's phone number against law enforcement records? Yes, I did. And do they match? Yes, they match. Is State's Exhibit 16.1 a fair and accurate representation of the relevant text thread between Mr. Twiggs and Mr. Robinson? Yes, it is. As part of the investigation, was a Celebrite extraction performed on Mr. Twiggs' phone? Yes, it was Did you personally review that extraction?

1:35:40Yes, I have And according to that extraction, did Mr. Robinson and Mr. Twiggs exchange text messages on September 10th through 11th, 2025? Yes, they did What time was that first text sent according to the Celebrite extraction? The first text was September 10th at 11 p.m. All right, Judge. I would move to admit State's Exhibit 16.1, and then pursuant to court order, I would move to publish it to the monitors. Senator Novak. We have no further objections beyond those that the court, of course, is very familiar with at this point in time. All right. I'll note the standing objections made by defense.

1:36:35Those objections are overruled. The 16.1 is admitted into evidence and may be published to the gallery as well as electronically distributed through the camera.

1:36:50All right, Agent, I want to, I'm not going to go through every single message, but I do want to have you read aloud certain portions of them. And I apologize to council. These are not actually given a page number. I have page numbers, but I'm happy to confer that we're on the same page as we go. So here we're looking at page one of State's Exhibit 16.1. If you could start, if you could read a little more than halfway down where it begins Wednesday, 11 p.m., will you start reading underneath that? Yes. So this would have been from Tyler. It says drop what you're doing, look under your keyboard.

1:37:35And I apologize. Let me stop you there. How do you know that that message would have been from Tyler Robinson? That's just, so any of the messages in gray would be from Tyler, and the message in blue would be from Lance. It's just the way the iPhone distinguishes the messages. And also Lance, Lance in his interview also acknowledges that, who was saying what. And up at the top, who do we see that this thread is between? Tyler. All right, sorry to interrupt you. So read that again, starting from look under the keyboard. So after that, then Lance responds. He says, what? And then he says, you're joking, right?

1:38:19And then Tyler says, fuck, I tried to delete that. If we could scroll down to page two.

1:38:28And if you can continue reading along. Okay. And Tyler says, I'm still okay, my love, but I'm stuck in Orem for a little while longer yet. Shouldn't be long until I can come home, but got to grab my rifle still. To be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret until I died of old age. I am sorry to involve you. And then Lance replies, you weren't the one who did it right. and Tyler says, I am, I'm sorry. Lance says, I thought they caught the person. And then Tyler says, no, they grabbed some crazy old dude and interrogated someone in similar clothing. I had planned to grab my rifle from the drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town got locked down.

1:39:15It's quiet almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering. If we could scroll down to page three. Continue reading. Lance says, why? And Tyler says, why did I do it? And Lance says, yeah. Tyler says, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I'm able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence. Going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't seen anything in the news about them finding it. We'll update you shortly. Or sorry, we'll update you by midnight. and then Lance says all right stay safe how long have you been planning this scroll down a little bit please Kimberly and Tyler replies a bit over a week I believe I can get close to it but there is a squad car parked right by it I think they already swept that spot but I don't want to chance it we can scroll down to page four and continue

1:40:18reading about halfway down. I'll stop you about halfway down. This is while they were spot, but I don't want to chance it while they were parked there. If they'd found it, I imagine there would be more commotion. Again, I'm sorry for roping you into all of this. You shouldn't have to worry about this. And Lance replies, does anyone else know? Tyler says not to my knowledge. All right, I'll stop you there. Let's move to page five. So this should be page four. So just scroll down one, please, Kimberly. And if you could read starting.

1:40:57Sorry, Kimberly, scroll a bit more down. If you could read, I don't know, about one third of the way up that starts with guess. okay Tyler says guess I'm guess I'm just sitting in my car watching reels for another hour hoping this guy fucks off and continue and Lance says are you okay still and Tyler says yes check and spot again now we'll sorry now we're on page six continue reading We'll update soon. He continues, the squad car was moved further away enough that I should be able to move in. I backed off because I thought I heard footsteps, maybe a foot patrol, but the crickets here are so fucking loud.

1:41:45Going to see if the road closer to campus is open so I can drive past and check shit out. Probably still closed off, though. Getting worried, hard to know for sure, but I'm not finding my rifle. Could be in the wrong spot. Lance says, do you think they found it? And Tyler says, don't know. They haven't published anything, if they have. And then Lance says, why did you leave it behind? Oh, sorry. Kimberly, if you could scroll down. Originally. Also, does it have a serial number? If you could scroll to page 7.

1:42:27and I'll continue reading I'll stop you on this page in a little bit okay so Tyler continues I did I D E K if I had if I had a serial number but it wouldn't trace to me I worry about prints I had to leave it in a in a bush where I changed outfits didn't have the ability or time to bring it with. And stop there, please. And then if we could go to the next page, page 8.

1:43:00And if you could start at the top. Okay, so Lance says, was your change of clothes there, or was that also gone, or did you bring those with you originally? Anyway, you could replace the gun, or would he notice? Then Tyler says, only thing I left was the rifle wrapped in a towel. I'll bet that canine sniffed it out little snitching bastard replace it unlikely I don't fully know what the gun was because it was old as shit and Gramps did some modifying there was a four digit serial on it God only knows who it's registered to hopefully some dead guy who gave it to Grandpa and he continues remember how I was engraving bullets the fucking messages are mostly a big meme if I see notices is bulge uwu on fox news i might have a stroke and then continue i'll stop you in a moment it says all right i'm gonna have to leave it that really fucking sucks let me stop you there and then if we could go on to the next page page nine

1:44:10and do you see the the first blue message we see on page nine uh can you start there yes uh So Lance says, do you need it for hunting? And Tyler says, no, my dad wanted to use a high caliber for the rifle hunt. Judging from today, I say Graham's gun does just fine, IDK. I think that was a 2K scope. Lance says, geez. And then Tyler says, OMW home, 3.5 hours. Lance says, drive safe. and then Tyler says delete this exchange and I'll stop you right there and then sorry we're on page 9 if we can scroll to page 15

1:45:09and then the second grade message on page 15 if you could start there. Okay. So this is Tyler. I'm going to turn myself in willingly. One of my neighbors here is a deputy for the sheriff. We hope to keep things sort of quiet here. And then I'll stop you there. Okay. And we can remove the exhibit from the screen. Thank you, Kimberly.

1:45:38We mentioned a cell bright extraction of Mr. Twig's phone. Do you know what time that last text was sent? Yeah, I recall it was just before 8 p.m. on September 11th. It was, I think, 7.42 p.m. is my recollection. I'm sorry, September 11th? Yes. Would September 12th make sense? Or you're saying September 11th? So September 11th was when we turned himself in on September 11th. Thank you. All right, I'm going to show just for the witness, State's Exhibit 16.2.

1:46:28Let me know when you see that. Okay, I see it. Do you recognize this? I do, yep. What is it? This is just more photos of Lance's phone. How do you? Sorry. Sorry, these are the, sorry, go with your question, please. I'm just asking what it is. So you said it's a photo of Lance's phone. Do you know if that's from the same time period as the exhibit we just looked at? Yes. And what is it of? These are the Discord messages that Lance had talked about. How do you know that? So Lance in the first interview with FBI shows the phone and the photos are taken by Agent Larson And then these images are shown to Lance during a second interview and it confirms That these are those same messages and this is photos of Lance's phone You mentioned an Agent Larson took the photos Do you know if he's the same agent that took the photos of this exhibit 16.2?

1:47:32Yes, same agent And you spoke with him to confirm that? Yes, I did Are you aware if Mr. Twiggs is actually part of this discord thread? Yes, he is a part of it. He doesn't, in this section, he doesn't reply to it, but he does state in his statement that he was part of that thread. Does he identify whether Mr. Robinson is part of that thread? He does. And when did that happen? He identifies that in his first interview with the two FBI agents, and then he again confirms that in the second interview. Did Mr. Twiggs say what username on Discord Mr. Robinson used, at least with respect to this thread?

1:48:15Yes, it's the Tyler slash IKUM, I-K-U-M. And is exhibit 16.2 a fair and accurate representation of that Discord thread? Yes, it is. Did law enforcement send, as part of your investigation, did law enforcement send a subpoena to Discord? Yes, they did. Were these messages recovered via that subpoena? They were. Did you review that? Yes, I did. And in State's Exhibit 16.2 that is before you, when is the first message from Tyler sent? 7.57 p.m. And it says yesterday. Do you have any knowledge of what day that would have been? Yes, this would have been September 11th.

1:49:11So Tyler sends the first message that you're seeing on Exhibit 16.2, September 11th at 7.57 p.m. Yes, that's correct. You testified earlier that Mr. Robinson arrived at the Washington County Sheriff's Office approximately at 9 p.m. Is that right? Yes, that's correct. And although you weren't physically present there yet because you were flying down, how do you know that he arrived approximately around 9 p.m.? Just based on the police reports I reviewed and then go back and look at the video and such.

1:49:52Judge, the state moves to admit State's Exhibit 16.2 and publish it pursuant to court order. Thank you. We've already lodged all of our objections on all three phases. All right. Noting the objections, standing objections by defense. State's Exhibit 16.2 is admitted into evidence and may be published only in the gallery, not for distribution on electronic media.

1:50:27Sirius XM fans, if you are listening to us now, we've lost audio from the proceeding, we think intentionally on their part. They've turned off the mics, we believe, right now to have a private consultation between the judge and the lawyers on whether the public can have access to the Discord messages of Tyler Robinson, Lance Twiggs, and others in their gaming group. There were at least three confessions alleged by my count. One was the letter that he left under Lance Twiggs' keyboard. One was the text messages he and Lance Twiggs had about the letter and what had done. And one was in the discord group message chat where he confessed.

1:51:11They said at 7.57 PM on 9-11, the day after the murder, one hour before he showed up at the sheriff's office to turn himself in.

1:51:22We're going to go back in there when they allow us to hear what's happening again, but what an extraordinary 40 minutes we all just had together. My God. Tyler Robinson went back home. He returned to his apartment with Lance Twiggs the day after the murder. And they walked around together on 9-11 during the day and talked about what he'd done. Moreover, we heard, we'll get to all of this, but moreover, we heard far more about their text exchange than has been made public. The text exchange we know about because law enforcement identified it in their, what's called the criminal information, the thing that brings charges.

1:52:08And we had been reading from that. We've read from it extensively on the show this week. This is the first we've heard some of the additional lines that were eliminated by ellipses in the criminal information. And, uh, they were they were interesting they were they were telling in some instances but we're getting a much more full picture of the exchange that they had like state's exhibit 16.1 wednesday at 11 p.m when when what happened was tyler robinson had a a pre-set text like an automated text that showed up on tyler on lance twig's phone um that read drop what you were doing look under my keyboard Oh, we're back.

1:52:53Stand by. I'll get back to you. Let's listen. I'm on September 10th. And so at that point, Lance finds this. This is the letter he finds under that keyboard. OK, so to clarify, Mr. Twiggs gets a text from Mr. Robinson around 11 p.m. on September 10th telling him to look under his keyboard. Yes, correct. And this is what Mr. Twiggs represented was underneath the keyboard. Yes, yes.

1:53:25How did law enforcement get this photograph? So following Lance's first interview at St. George PD, his phone is recovered at that point, taken into evidence. It is downloaded, I believe it was the following day or shortly after that. The FBI transported that phone to the RCFL, which is the Regional Computer Forensic Laboratory, in Salt Lake City, the phone was downloaded through Celebrite. And after following that download that was complete, SBI received a flash drive containing that download. From there it went to a SIAC analyst to go through that data of his phone to look for any pertinent evidence or information that may be on there.

1:54:17And at that point, this image of this letter was located. All right. I'm going to break down a few things. You mentioned, I just want to make sure the record's clear, you mentioned Celebrite a few times. What is Celebrite? It's a downloading software that's commonly used by law enforcement. I don't do that myself, but it's commonly used to recover data, to download electronic devices. particularly cell phones. And then you mentioned SIAC. What does that mean? It's the Statewide Information Analysis Center. It's a division within DPS. It's a fusion center. They assist law enforcement with intelligence, various intelligence information for our investigations.

1:55:08You mentioned that you don't personally do Cellbrite phone extractions. Have you spoken to the law enforcement officers that performed the Cellbrite extraction on Mr. Twigg's phone in this case? I don't believe I specifically talked to those individuals, RCFL, that did that.

1:55:29But, yeah, that was then provided to SBI. Did you speak with officers at SBI that have recovered this photo that we're seeing in State's Exhibit 16.3? Yes, I've spoken to, yeah, I have spoken with an ASIAC analyst who particularly in particular found this image I've spoken her personally as well was mr. twigs shown what's been marked as states exhibit 16.3 during his second interview yes he was and again you were present for that yes I was there is exhibit 16.3 a fair and accurate representation of the photo law enforcement obtained from mr. twigs phone and that he was subsequently shown in the second interview yes it's fair and Accurate.

1:56:14Your Honor, the state would move to admit Exhibit 16.3 and then also publish pursuant to court order. Mr. Novak. Just noting the objections that have previously been made, and I think that the court's order is that it may be published in the courtroom only. Thank you. Noting the standing objection by defense 16.3, correct? Correct. is admitted into evidence and may be published only in the courtroom and not be shown or videoed. Once again, they've cut the mics inside the courtroom to have a discussion about we don't know what. They're planning on publishing that exhibit inside the courtroom, but not beyond for now.

1:57:01But we know what it is, at least in part. It's the note that we were talking about just as we tossed back to the courtroom that Tyler Robinson left for Lance Twiggs underneath Tyler Robinson's keyboard in his bedroom in the apartment that they shared. On September 10th, 2022, sorry, 25, the day after Charlie was killed, sorry, the day Charlie was killed, Tyler had set the text message on his phone, the text messaging function to deliver an automated message to Lance Twiggs that read, drop what you are doing and look under my keyboard. We know from the criminal information, even though they're not showing us what was under the keyboard, that there was a note.

1:57:49This is I'm reading directly from the criminal information. The roommate looked under the keyboard and found a note that stated, quote, I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it, end quote. Police found a photograph of this note. You heard them talking about that in court just there. They found that photograph on Lance Twig's phone thanks to this Celebrite technology. It was unclear to me whether that was still in his photographs as an easily retrievable photo or whether he had deleted the photo. And that's why they needed this technology celebrate to find it. Did not hear testimony about that.

1:58:25And then the criminal information adds the following text exchange then took place. And then you heard the long and back and forth on it. Let's go back into the court. How do you know that? I've viewed the FBI's website and I recall seeing these images released on September 11th. Does State's Exhibit 16.4, is that a fair and accurate representation of what you reviewed from the FBI and that the FBI released? Yes, it is. The state moves to admit Exhibit 16.4 and publish according to court order. Mr. Nubak. No further objections. Thank you. All right. Noting the standing objection by defense, overruling that objection, states exhibit 16.4 is admitted into evidence and may be published in the courtroom.

1:59:21And again, in the in the discord. OK, once again, they argue and then they pop back up. I guess they're arguing. I mean, just when they identify the exhibits, I guess they don't want us to hear what they're identifying. I'm guessing from what we heard at the tail end there, we know that 16.1 was, I believe, text messages. 16.2 was the Discord messages. Wait, 16.1, yes. 16.1 was the text messages. You're joking, right? and then we heard Tyler add, fuck, I tried to delete that. That's new. That's new. That was not in the criminal information as something Tyler said. But so he texted him, look under my keyboard.

2:00:09He looked under the keyboard. Then he responds to Tyler saying, and he reads, I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it. Then he texts to Charlie, what? With multiple question marks. You're joking, right? And what we now know is Robinson responded, fuck, I tried to delete that. Very interesting. So I guess Tyler had sent this automated message. It's kind of interesting. And if Tyler's telling the truth that he tried to delete that text to Lance, then Tyler was taken aback by Lance's text, which must have come out of the blue in a way to him at, you know, 10 p.m. that night saying, what?

2:00:51You're joking, right? wait and Tyler's first response was F I tried to delete that and then they were off to the races with um Tyler there was a lot more in the actual text exchange than there was in the criminal information and we have the screen grabs from the actual texts which we will go through I can't do that live on the air with you right now but you heard them um a lot more details about why are they parked there? The crickets are loud. Does anyone else know? Not to my knowledge. That was the first we heard all of those details. And then Tyler telling Lance, delete this exchange. Also so interesting.

2:01:31Did he? Again, I don't know if they got that text exchange off of Lance's text message records, like we all have on our phones, or thanks to that Crime Bright technology that retreats it. Here's one we're showing. Can you text it to me, Steve, so I can see it up close? I can't read the monitor from where I am. So yeah, unclear to me whether Tyler actually had, I'm sorry, Lance had deleted all of this and they just recovered it or whether it was still on his phone. Either way, the efforts to cover it up by delete this exchange did not work. it's all there for the first time we're actually seeing the back and forth with like the text message here it is uh reading here 7 p.m does that still work for you wait hold on a second well this is before the shooting I guess I'm trying to read it on my phone I love you moi moi I love you more so much much so moi moi they're doing the kissy sounds these are okay that's actually quite interesting this is the lead up to his automated text alerting lance that he's killed charlie and they talk so you get a feel a little bit for how these two talk um this is earlier i can't tell the date but it's it's prior to the murder a day i can see it's maybe the sunday prior to the wednesday murder 7 p.m does that still or that still work for you.

2:03:01Yup. I love you. That's Monday. It's blurry, but I think I can read that it's Monday at one 15. I love you. Right. I think Tyler. Yeah. Um, Lance responds, love you too. Hope works going well. Then Wednesday, well, Wednesday, that was the day of the murder and it's 4 33 p.m. Well, that's fascinating. And Wednesday, 4 33 p.m. Tyler texts Lance, love you. Mwah, mwah, like M-W-A-H typed out twice. And, and Tyler responds, I'm sorry, Lance responds. I love you. Morsies. Mwah, mwah, mwah. I mean, okay. Then that same day, Wednesday at 11 p.m. comes in from Tyler, drop what you are doing, look under my keyboard, and Lance responds, what with the question marks?

2:04:01You're joking, right? And then fuck, I tried to delete that. Very interesting, and we're getting more, but truly the most interesting thing to me that we've heard in all of this is that he went, Tyler went back home on September 11th, the day after the murder, that Lance said, I saw him when I woke up. He was walking around the house. I went home and it was just Tyler there. I said goodbye to him and I went back to my parents' house. The prosecutor was asking if he was acting erratically, which Lance had apparently signed on to and then said, yes, he was pacing around a lot. um Lance said he didn't go into detail about what he had done but I asked him if what he said the night before was true and he said yes he cried and said he wished he hadn't done it unbelievable what's that we're back Steve oh no we're not back okay yeah he cried and said he wished he hadn't done it he said he would talk to his parents or turn himself in when you left was that the plan yes I did not want to be at our apartment when that happened or when he said possible law enforcement got there and went from there and this is just it's chilling I don't know it's just you know He cried and said he wished he hadn't done it.

2:05:40And what good does that do? He was crying on September 11th, wishing he hadn't done it. Think of the condition of Erica Kirk and the nation, all of us.

2:05:58Like, okay. So this is the first we've had any indication. He's sorry. He's sorry that he did it. Great. It's not going to spare his life. there's just something about knowing that not as forgiving as Erica. It's galling in some way. Okay. You're sorry. Maybe you should have thought about it a little bit more before you took out your. All right. We're going to bring in our legal panel and get their thoughts. Mark and Matt are out, but Dave Ehrenberg is here along with Mark Eichlarsh, um, as well as Viva Fry. Viva's a rumble host. Dave's former prosecutor of Palm Beach County. And Mark is a criminal and civil attorney.

2:06:37Guys, pretty stunning, pretty stunning stuff there. Like my jaw was on the floor. We did get to see Lance Twiggs, first of all. Part of the video was played, which I thought was very helpful because you could see him. He was in a suit. He was dressed as a man, even though the defense keeps calling him Luna. He said he's only Luna for some people, but he was wearing a video. He was wearing a suit in the video. He had long hair. he was chewing gum here's a picture of him which they then asked him to spit out which he did and to think of tyler robinson sitting in that courtroom dave erenberg watching his roommate former lover whom he will never see again in all likelihood in person or at least not never be able to touch, give it all up.

2:07:30You know, talk about the text messages, the letter that was found under the keyboard, the conversation the day after, an extraordinary conversation the day after. I can only imagine what the dynamic was inside that courtroom. Your reaction to what we just heard? Megan, I thought that Twigs came across as credible. It sounds like he had no part in this, And he generally was shocked that Tyler Robinson did this. And these messages are really damning. I know there are a lot of people on the Internet that want to believe what they want to believe. There's nothing that could prove otherwise that they think this is some international conspiracy or somehow Tyler Robinson was framed.

2:08:13But you've got a guy who confessed at least three and possibly four times. You have the note under the keyboard and then you have him saying, oh, he had forgotten. He had sent the text that alerted Twiggs to the note under the keyboard. Oh, darn. So, I mean, it's very typical for a moron like Tyler Robinson to act like that. Number two, you've got the subsequent one that he justified the murder because he had enough of Charlie's hatred. Then you had the Discord chat later on. And then you had, and I don't think we've heard it yet, but you're going to hear about how when his parents confronted him, he confessed to his parents, according to reports.

2:08:54So four times. And for those out there who think, well, the wording of one of those confessions is so Shakespearean, it could not have come from an incel like this guy. No, you saw subsequent messages like his dismay that they could find the rifle. And what is he going to do to replace his grandfather's rifle? And he was cursing and he was scared. That's who this guy is. They've got the right guy. Even the, you know, like the kissy, like clearly they don't communicate the way some of us would conjure up in our heads, like the gamers, these young gamers. Like these are two gay men, at least one of whom maybe both are a furry, one of whom may or may not be trans.

2:09:42Like, I don't think we can be assuming how they talk. I think we need to be reading the text messages to glean how they talk. Megan, that's such a good point. I was on our show, MK True Crime, and I was debating with Lauren Conlon about that, about the language used. And she said, it does sound weird and unusual. And I don't see it. I can't relate to it. And I said, yeah, you're not a furry, right? I mean, we're talking about a whole different universe of people here. And so we're supposed to be like, well, they don't comply with our current standards of decency and language. Come on. The whole thing is weird.

2:10:16Yeah, I don't know a lot of 20 year old guys who are doing that to each other like that. OK, we're in a different territory here already on the preceding text, which came days before. So if this is like all some FBI plot to like come up with a text message, boy, they did a good job. They went back days. They made the super gay exchanges between the two of them to set up phrases like my love. I don't you know, whatever. But Mark, I was listening to that whole thing was pretty extraordinary. but the Lance Twig testimonial and the evidence that came in right after from that agent who we listened to.

2:10:52That was Lauren Hunt, the deputy DA, doing the cross-examination. And sorry, who did say that again, Steve? Oh, Agent Davis. Oh, yeah, it was Agent Brian Davis with the Utah State Bureau of Investigation. Your reaction to what you heard? I thought the testimony was compelling. I think the state did a great job laying it out, not just for the judge, who, again, I think, you know, in 20 minutes would have found probable cause. But for those independents, I'll call them, not the conspiracy theorists, they're never going to be convinced. It doesn't matter. This is nail in the coffin right here. It's so clear that he's guilty.

2:11:31But for those people, it doesn't matter. For the independents, and by that I mean those who are reasonable, those who, like myself, have an open mind and say, okay, I wasn't there. I don't know what happened. Prove to me the chain of custody that there weren't some agents who said, let's frame this guy like the Mona Lisa for some reason, leaving the true killer out there for no reason at all, risking their life in prison to frame Tyler Robinson, which makes zero sense. I think they did a great job of laying this out. Now, I do want one other point. The fact that he feels sorry for what he did, to me, there was only one One thing that came from that, if ever politics get put aside and prosecutors choose to extend a life in prison offer where he waives his right to appeal and he goes away, no big trial, no more copycat folks because they're watching him and all the media attention he's getting.

2:12:30If they ever do that, it's more likely, in my opinion, that he would accept something like that because of that remark that he felt sorry for what he did. He's not one of these hardcore folks who can't wait to take the witness stand and read all the things that caused him to be so offended by what Kirk said that might have caused him to do this. He's not seeking his 15 minutes. It looks like he would likely take a play. Viva, your thoughts? Well, I was going to say one thing. To Mark's point, people are going to say guilty. Remind everybody, this is just probable cause. Probable cause has been established, period, full stop.

2:13:08People can still say it wasn't him in the video. Lance Twiggs is lying. Okay, you'll raise your reasonable doubt at trial. From a probable cause perspective, this preliminary hearing is over with a big fat period at the end of it. I'm not convinced, unlike Dave, I'm not convinced. Lance might have come off as sincere, but I'm more convinced now than I was before that he had some involvement in this. You know, one question I would have loved for I think it was Brian Davis who asked him the questions in the video. Whoever was asking him the questions, I would have loved for them to ask Lance if he was Ryan McBride, the deputy DA.

2:13:43Sorry. I would have loved for them to have asked if he knew what messages Tyler engraved in the bullets, because if you're going hunting with your family, you don't need hey, fascist catch on the bullet. I'm still thoroughly convinced people. Yeah, people I'm convinced people in the discord chats had advanced knowledge. I'm convinced there are more people involved in the planning. And certainly now we're seeing in the cover up afterwards a people who aided and abetted Tyler Robinson after the act. And I believe that many of them had foreknowledge of what was coming beforehand. But from a probable cause perspective, it's over.

2:14:14And let people try to raise whatever reasonable doubt they think they can, despite the evidence. But just to answer all those people on Twitter on X right now, it's the wrong guy. He wasn't the right height. Those those exchanges were manufactured. you'll raise a reasonable doubt but when it comes to probable cause it's been established and lance's testimony was the nail in the coffin yeah and the other thing is you can hear the prosecution who's clearly you know they've been listening to the alternate theories i'll say um because they spent time asking him about the discord phone the discord confession you know where he the last thing he did before he put himself into custody with that sheriff's deputy friend was to go on Discord and confess again.

2:15:00And one of the theories out there has been that was clearly a lie because he was in custody at the time that message on Discord was posted at 7.57 p.m. on 9-11, the day after the shooting. And you saw the prosecutor there, Lauren Hunt, the deputy DA, going through the timeline. And the officer said, 7.57 p.m., that is when Tyler posted that message on Discord. And she said, and when did he arrive at the sheriff's office? And he said, 9 p.m. So establishing the timeline again, that's not for the judge. That's to prove to the world he was not in custody when he posted that discord to confession.

2:15:41He was still at his home. He had plenty of time to get down to the local sheriff's office and turn himself in. I do think it's interesting. Like, I don't know whether the message, the photo of the message that was left under the keyboard and or the text messages were turned over by Lance Twiggs or found by Celebrite. I, to this moment, don't know that. And let's not forget, Dave, one of the interesting things is he did not call law enforcement. Lance Twiggs did not call the cops, didn't call him on 910, didn't call him on 911 when he got that message from from Tyler. Tyler, he didn't call him when he saw Tyler walking around the house and read double down on the on the confession.

2:16:25They they had to go to him after Tyler turned himself in. So I don't know. I mean, in another world, you could see the D.A., someone like yourself and the cops finding a way to slap charges on this guy. No. Yeah, especially because Twigs's DNA was found on the screwdriver and and on the towel were covered with the rifle. They live together. So you could have an innocent explanation. But if you wanted to say that Twiggs was an accessory, he didn't report it. You could try. The thing is, is that it's got to be more than knowing about it and not saying there's no good Samaritan law that you have to report.

2:17:02But if he tried to cover it up, if he helped Tyler Robinson evade capture or cover it up, then he could be charged as an accessory. He's only been given use immunity for his testimony. So that means they could develop independently evidence against him. So he's not out of the woods yet. But my take and I don't totally disagree with Viva. My take is that he sounded credible and I don't think he was an accessory to it. But I would keep an open mind that if they do have evidence that showed that he helped keep the heat away from his roommate, then, yeah, then they should go after him, too. I'm just going through my notes on his testimony.

2:17:40He said, okay, they spent the night together in the same apartment on 9-9, the night before the crime. When did he leave early? He said maybe 5 a.m., could have been even earlier, 1 a.m., saying that he had to work that day. He had a long drive to work that day. And it wasn't until late that evening, 11 p.m. or 10, according to my text here, that he received the automated message. He did cop to seeing Tyler engrave bullets earlier. Tyler told him that he was going hunting with his family, told him to make sure he told Tyler to make sure he did not set off the bullet in the house. Tyler asked about a Dremel to engrave.

2:18:23I didn't know what that was, but my team found a picture of a Dremel and it's like a machine that I don't know. It's like a carving machine. A mini handyman's tool, like a dentist drill, but more powerful. you switch the end if you want to cut, engrave, whatever. It's a good tool. I mean, you have to be very precise at the end if you're engraving a bullet. It's a pencil tip. I mean, you can basically use it as a pencil for engraving and then you can buff stuff out of it. It's very useful. I mean, that in and of itself, Viva, really is suspicious. Like they're sitting in the same room and he's engraving bullets and they're lovers and he doesn't say, what do you have there?

2:19:00What's that? What are you engraving? I'm telling you, it might be my own bias because I'm coming into Lance's testimony already believing what I believe and I want to find things to substantiate it. But that he's not even more shocked at what has happened, that he doesn't put, that he claims that he didn't put any of this together and it's only late in the evening that it even clicks with him that Tyler might have done this. I've got great difficulty believing that but one of my takeaways is listening to Lance talk about him waking up at 12 or 1 o 'clock in the afternoon because he didn't have work that day what repulses me in all of this and at the end of the day people are going to analyze this like a murder trial and it turns into something a technical analysis is the humans behind this you have these two degenerates one more so than the other and now at the center of the universe it almost feels like they love the attention that they're getting right now.

2:19:51Lance is being asked questions about his childhood, you know, the games that they used to play. And it's like it's all the attention in the world that they've ever wanted because they snuffed out of this earth an existence of a man that was incomparably a better human. It just makes it nauseous to me to actually listen to this testimony where they might even revel in the attention. And Tyler never got this much attention in his life before. And what made him famous was snuffing out the life of Charlie Kirk. Oh, stomach turning. Who would have been a future president without question? Who led a movement?

2:20:26Who led a Christian revival? Who at such a young age had already made such a difference in our world? Just a profound impact on so many levels. and yeah these two losers sitting there with their pot and whatever else they were doing in that apartment their stupid memes and their gamer life contributing next to nothing took it all away he was asked did you read that note that automated message yes around 11 on on September 10th they showed a picture of it they they uh he said then he read the note and then he put the note back on on Tyler's desk. We don't clearly Tyler got rid of it because we've never seen the actual note.

2:21:09The only reason we know about that note that was under Tyler's keyboard that Tyler told Lance to go look for is because Lance took a picture of it and the cops found that picture on his phone and ultimately found him after Tyler confessed, but they've never gotten the actual note. Clearly Tyler went there and did some cleanup the next day, which is interesting. Let's see. He left a message. I don't think I meant to. He said he saw Tyler. We talked about that. Didn't go into detail. Yeah. I asked him whether what he said the night before was true. Yes. I mean, that's another confession, Mark, that we now have the confession in the note.

2:21:47We have the confession in the texts. we have the confession in the discord we appear to have very close to a confession to his parents i mean it's as close as you can get they don't use that word confession when he they discuss what he said to his parents but here is how they describe it in the criminal information his um they agreed that the person in the surveillance looked like their son they believe the rifle looked like the son that the rifle they'd given him the father contacted the son asked him to send a photo of the rifle. Robinson did not respond. Robinson's father spoke on the phone with Robinson.

2:22:21Robinson implied that he planned to take his own life. Robinson's parents were able to convince him to meet at their home. Robinson implied that he was the shooter when they met, implied that he was the shooter and stated that he couldn't go to jail and just wanted to end it. When asked why he did it, Robinson explained to his parents, there is too much evil and the guy, Charlie Kirk, spreads too much hate. They talked about Robinson turning himself in and convinced Robinson to speak with a family friend and a retired deputy sheriff. At Robinson's father's request, the family friend met with Robinson and his parents and convinced Robinson to turn himself in.

2:22:52So I don't use the word confession, Mark, but I mean, might as well. And now we have a fifth, a fifth confession when he saw Lance Twiggs the day after and Lance said, was it true what you texted me? And he said, yeah, it was. I mean, once again, and that he wished he hadn't done it and that he cried as he paced around the apartment, said he would talk to his parents or turn himself in. I mean, how many confessions do we need? Right. One is good enough for me to run to the prosecution and define winning by begging them and pleading them and getting them to offer life. That's why I think that that's what the defense is doing.

2:23:34They're getting past this probable cause of hearing, which, again, as Viva made very clear, I agree with him. The chances of this judge not finding probable cause, I equate to getting struck by lightning while you have the winning lottery ticket in your hand. It is guaranteed to happen. But let me go back to the crying because I think I keep getting downloads as to why that's even more significant. a guilty verdict i think is going to happen at his trial assuming this isn't resolved to a life sentence you go to the penalty phase you got 12 people who are deciding whether he should live or die and death is different however you feel about it megan you would be like all right let's go straight to death no questions asked it's very personal and when you start to hear things like him crying, him wishing he didn't do it.

2:24:27While that would have zero impact on you and maybe other panelists here, that could have an impact on at least one of the 12 jurors. And since they require a unanimous verdict to give him death, that's a concern. It's not a guarantee that you're going to get the death penalty here. And the other thing, just to continue that thought, Mark, is that everything we hear about Tyler Robinson, like we opened the show today with this reporting from this well-known YouTuber. And this guy says he was contacted by a friend of the pair of them, Robinson and Twigs, and that that person gave this YouTuber a bunch of, like we showed pictures from what he said was inside their apartment, a bunch of details on both of them, Tyler Robinson and Lance Twiggs.

2:25:15And if you believe all of this, the takeaway is Lance Twiggs was a hot mess and Tyler Robinson was kind of fine, not thriving exactly, but not the problem. Like maybe realizing he was gay, but like, that's it. He wasn't the one manic and crying and doing experiments with mold and then whisks with metal on them, trying to grow shit in the apartment and, you know, swaying between like huge bouts of depression and then manic, maniacal smiling and giggling while he did these crazy drawings. That was all twigs. So I, I don't know if, I don't know if that answers anything about how Tyler Robinson one day pulled out his gun and shot Charlie Kirk, according to the prosecution.

2:26:07But it it's not like hearing about Charles Manson, who is this like a frothing at the mouth serial killer who loved killing. Who's that? That's for you. Oh, it is for me. I mean, no, just agreed. Yeah. Just yeah. It's not like a lifetime of crime. Oh, absolutely. No. And again, that's another argument. I mean, I know it gets people upset to think that there's any way that he might not get death, But it's another argument to be made to the 12 people who are deciding whether he should live or die. The absence of the Charlie Manson like thought process, the record dating back to the disco crisis, which you would hope to find on someone you're finally going to give the ultimate sanction to.

2:26:52What he did was abhorrent without question. But again, you've got to fine tune the argument and say why he should die and not spend the rest of his life in prison. And again, that is not a guaranteed. We've seen it over and over again in high profile cases where we think it's a slam dunk and two or three jurors say, you know what? No, it'd be worse for him in jail. Let him let him live in prison and maybe he'll get killed there. Something like that. here's the soundbite um by the way before i play it it's interesting because what we learned at the top of the show where we talked about that what the youtuber reported was that tyler was in a caretaking role toward lance twigs tyler kind of had his act more together you know he had a job and he wasn't having i don't know if it's bipolar or what, but those huge emotional swings.

2:27:47And he was, they described him as Lance's handler, but like he had defaulted to a caretaking role of Lance Twiggs. And Lance is the one who is doing HRT, according to this YouTuber, like really starting to do like off-market hormone replacement therapy as he grew breasts and was trying to turn himself into a woman, which in many circumstances drives people nuts and they unleash violence on us. um but it you know along this same line you're going to get an argument that he thought he was taking care of lance twigs that day too you know this hate he was so he was so uh he so objected to in charlie was about this issue that's that's what we think they're going to be able to prove and um you know you see luna sitting there in a suit with long hair projecting i don't know what but this is going to be an ongoing theme that like this is some sort of a caregiving type situation in Tyler's head.

2:28:46Here's the soundbite from Lance Twiggs about the day after the murder, seeing Tyler in their apartment. And did he talk about what he had done? Uh, didn't go into detail. He just, I just asked him in person if what he said was true the night before and he said it was I started crying a little bit and said he wishes he hadn't done it and then kept going around and just doing stuff I think to keep himself busy or distracted or something and I mean Viva can I just say like I don't believe that there's no way they he just said is it true what you told me last night yes it's true that's what I was just trying to look up in terms of when the first images of tyler robinson were circulated to the public to identify the individual i think i think lance said in his in his testimony oh well lance in his testimony yeah i wasn't on social i wasn't on social media much i first of all i have trouble believing that i'd like to know when the first images were circulated because there's no doubt in my mind that he knew it was true and he might have known before that uh text message went out to him and And when Tyler says, oh, I meant to delete that.

2:30:02I mean, some people could say, well, he meant to delete it to send another type of protection, self-serving protection email to his lover, Lance Twiggs. But I don't believe it. It's like that he comes in. He's admitted to what he's done. You've seen the news. I don't care if Lance is on social media or not, but I believe he is. And I believe he knew earlier than that. And then he's like, did you really do it? And it's that part is implausible to me, except for the fact that his testimony has to cover his own ass. Because, you know, above and beyond his use immunity, he doesn't have blanket immunity and he needs to cover his own butt while giving the prosecution what they need to go ahead and charge and convict Tyler Robinson.

2:30:40But no, that part doesn't make sense to me. And I would like to know what Lance Twig's social media footprint is, because given their age, given what they're into, given their discord propensities, I don't think his social media footprint is nothing. And I'd love to know what it is. I disagree with you guys. The victim is telling me, Viva, that they released the pictures of the shooter. Okay. Again, none of us knew who that was. We just saw the pictures of the shooter per the FBI at 10 a.m. Utah time on September 11th. Okay. So would have been, I think, by this timeline, right around when he was seeing Tyler Robinson in their apartment.

2:31:17He says, I saw him when I woke up. He was walking around the house. um so i mean they were probably released by the time he saw him uh and of course the night before he had received the text saying it was me i'm waiting to get my gun i gotta get my gun it worked pretty good grandpa's gun got it done it was only a two thousand dollar scope i mean he'd been given a lot of details by tyler but i just don't believe i don't believe that just your lover has just committed a murder, a, a forgive the term, but sensational murder. And, um, it's all over the news. There's a man hunt and you know, everywhere the FBI has got your lover's picture out there and he doesn't come back.

2:31:58His parents knew it was him. And, and you just say, is it, is it true what you texted me? No, you're going to be like, you're going to know everything. Why? Why'd you do it? What were you thinking? You know, now what are you going to run? And if you were in on it, the conversation is going to sound even different than that. I don't know, Dave Ehrenberg, like you're as a former prosecutor. I would think this is a stone you'd want to keep turning, like keep digging under that stone to see how far we go. Yeah. And this is precisely the point that defense lawyers will seize upon to cast doubt on his credibility.

2:32:32But as my co-panelist said, this die is cast. I mean, this probable cause hearing is just for probable cause, not for beyond a reasonable doubt. They've got so much evidence. And so really, this is about trying to get anything you can to make life miserable for the prosecutors to force them to come to the table and take the death penalty off the table, out of the equation. So but no, we're not there. We're not there. Yeah, that's for sure. It is it is interesting. Is that true? You know, that that does sound like Twiggs is exaggerating what he said at the time. It does seem like that's not exactly what he said.

2:33:06Of course, it doesn't. Or under exaggerating, like under. Under plays. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Under. Yeah. He's downplaying what happened between the two of them. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, they'll say, well, you know, he was they're so shocked. This is the kind of thing they say. But yes, fair enough. None of it, though, cast any doubt upon who did it. And the fact that Tyler Robinson has so much information, including confessions, repeated confessions against him, that he's going down for this. But fair point. The extent of which Twiggs is involved in this is still an open question, even though the authorities, apparently, including the FBI, think that he was not involved.

2:33:43And that's why they're going to go to the mat with him as the key witness with use immunity, thinking that he wasn't even an accessory. But, you know, I'm open to information if we find otherwise. Megan, I guess I'm the only one. Megan, I'm the only one out of four here who thinks that it's possible that it happened exactly as Twiggs said. Now, I also would not be shocked if it didn't happen that way. But I'm picturing him saying, wait, is it true what you told me? Is that true? I totally can picture that. And I also don't see the prosecutors wanting to push any further, especially now because his testimony has been put into evidence.

2:34:22This is what his testimony is. And I don't know that they're going to push any further because it advances the state's case and it's already been done. So I'm just saying I see it play out that way. And I mean, how you would have handled it. And, you know, you don't know what's in these people. We are we are nothing like these people. So when he says, did you you know, is did you do it? Is that is that was it true what you said? whatever he said yeah i see him saying that it is that that he allegedly got the text message the night of then uh tyler doesn't come back that evening and then comes back in the morning when the news you know has been fleshed out you know it doesn't at this point it doesn't matter from tyler's perspective the real question is whether or not lance had a greater involvement or anybody else and then you know to go all the way back to joe kent and his investigation or the rumors that he requested the cash patel look into foreign elements you know the idea that they wouldn't want to complicate the prosecution against tyler robinson by further implicating lance twigs is is a theory that others have said is one of the reasons why uh they may not have dug deeper or pursued investigations into lance twigs because it might complicate uh the the conviction that they want to get of at least tyler robinson in this case right um and there was some great frustration in the public eye that it doesn't look like every stone had been unturned in terms of who else might have been involved in this plot and you know who else was on those discord chats but no to me it doesn't i mean again i i all of this is beyond human comprehension from anybody with a with a moral compass um but i just i don't believe what lance is saying necessarily oh was it really you to me it's more like it's to me it's more like let's cover this up and let's try to find a way to get you out of the country and you know i didn't do anything so i'll worry about that later.

2:36:09That's how I would see it playing out the next day. Not I'm shocked and stunned. No, it's a holy crap. I think I knew that this was coming and I knew since last night. And now what are we going to do? Or not even that I'm pretty sure I knew that this was coming. I did know this was coming and I told these other lunatics on discord about it. That's why they've been posting messages saying, wait until you see September 10th and what happens. And then when September 10th came, I told you, you know, like big news is coming at Utah Valley University. You wait. And then it came, bro, that was it. You know, it's like I I have to believe that the FBI looked into each and every one of those and somehow came away convinced that that was just meaningless talk.

2:36:52I mean, I'm going to guess this is what the FBI would have told us. But because there's been no indictments, you know, Viva, that like nobody else got indicted beyond Lance Twiggs. And it could have been Tyler or Lance Twiggs who would have told them some such a thing on here. But there's no way the FBI didn't talk to the people who posted those messages. I agree. And then, you know, if you say, well, I trust the FBI did a thorough investigation, you'll be accused of gobbling up what they refer to as Fed Slop these days. I know. But the problem is, like, to me, if they did not go in and examine each and every person in all of those discord chats, whatever the hell they call, it's either dereliction of duty or, you know, they don't want to know who was in on those chats.

2:37:41They did. I asked Kash Patel about that directly on this show. I asked him about whether they'd be doing that. And he said, yes, I just he's not an idiot. He wants to solve this case. He wants anybody responsible. And I realize if you're if you if you think the government is behind this, you're saying, what are you saying? No, he doesn't. He wants to. He's part of the cover up. But I don't believe that. I think he wants to solve this case and I would love he would love to indict anybody responsible or who had foreknowledge and had a role. But if he found people with foreknowledge but no role, we deserve to know that, too, because while they may not be indictable, as you guys point out, there's no good Samaritan rule.

2:38:20They they're totally subjected to scorn. They are they should receive all of our scorn. I'd love to know their names. What if somebody hires one of these lunatics? Like, who the fuck are they? I'm sorry, but from the beginning, I've wanted to know who are they? They were predicting his murder when it happened. They said, told you. And we've just been asked to kind of look the other way. And I feel like we've been asked to look the other way on Lance Twiggs, too. Maybe it's because they would preserve his credibility. I don't know. I don't care. But let me read you this quickly. This is this is new from the text message.

2:38:55three hours ago there was an there was an officer with a canine walking nearby the area hoping that pooch has a bad sniffer I mean there are reports that there was a bomb sniffing dog or you know gunpowder and he did not alert and here's Tyler Robinson saying that I'm wishing I had circled back and grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle because it sounds like the police couldn't get in for a long while because of the traffic needless to say I'ma be late coming home my bee and his response is just stay safe. That's that's Lance. I will, says Tyler. I'm more worried about what my old man would do if I didn't bring back grandpa's rifle.

2:39:33He's far scarier than any fed, not going to lie. Guess I'm just sitting in my car watching reels for another hour, hoping this guy fucks off. And then Lance, are you OK still? I mean, this is not like somebody who sounds like he's going to call law enforcement. And indeed, he didn't call law enforcement. Right. But it doesn't mean he's committing a crime. Right. He was being sympathetic to his lover and he was trying to support him and he shouldn't win any nice guy awards. He's not going to win a good Samaritan awards. But to me, I still lean more towards Mark's side that Twiggs probably had little or nothing to do with this.

2:40:13And I did think what he said on the stand was credible. So that's my take of it. I don't know. If I'm sitting next to Doug and he's engraving bullets, I'm going to know what's on them. I mean, I'm just going to put myself out there right now and say, I will know. If dear Doug ever got to a point where he's engraving bullets, he will go to great lengths not to let you know what he's doing. That's true. That's true. Dear Doug does not engrave bullets. He doesn't do anything with bullets. And one of the many reasons I love him, though, using firearms for a lawful purposes is fine. Guys, thank you.

2:40:45What a day. More tomorrow. We'll be back then. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.