The Left's Brainwashing and the Nancy Guthrie Case Sheriff's Alarming Changing Story, with Buck Sexton and Former FBI Agents | Ep. 1254

32:19Like, what are you talking about? And it shows you at every stage. Yeah, you're unmoored. Unmoored. It shows you who's in charge. And it destabilizes your own thinking. And that's exactly how they want you. Yeah. Yes. This is, okay. We're talking to Buck Sexton. The book is Manufacturing Delusion out today. This is reminding me of the school that we were at in New York. We were at two private schools in New York before we fled. And our daughter's school, and I talked about this at the time, but our daughter's school, She was only in fourth grade at the time, but there was a 10th grade girl who they put through hell, Buck.

32:49They put this girl through hell. It was a long story, which I'll tell in full someday, but the short version is this girl was accused by two of her classmates of saying something racially insensitive about a Halloween costume. and the school, having gotten wind of it, it was said on private time, made this girl stand in front of the entire upper school assembly and apologize to everybody for being racially insensitive. Meanwhile, she wasn't. It truly was completely blown out of proportion. It was a nothing what she said. So she did it. Then they called her back in to say it wasn't good enough.

33:25You have to racialize your apology. You have to get back up in front of the assembly and racialized the apology. Like I, as a white girl, could never know how my insensitive comment about, by the way, the comment was about what we're not gonna be for Halloween. It was something like, we're definitely not gonna be a slave master in slaves. And one of the girls to whom she said it was mixed race. So now you have to get back and you have to racialize it. And only at that point did she say, I'm gonna tell my parents this is happening to me. I'm not sure this is totally kosher. And the parents got involved, like what the hell is going on?

33:58She's been publicly flogged twice for this throwaway comment. Long story short, it wound up the two girls who were sort of coming for her claiming offense had been so incendiary on their own social media about race. There wasn't they weren't offended at all. The whole thing wound up being a target hit job on this girl. La la la la. The school should have done so much better by her. But but what you are saying is exactly what they put this girl through. and it's no accident they didn't call in her parents. They wanted control over this 15 or 16 year old girl. They wanted a public self-flagellation.

34:37It wasn't good enough. They couldn't have an authority figure or a family member to whom she felt close step in and they try to humiliate her again. You bend over and humiliate yourself. You do it, fucking do it. And thank God this girl had something in her, at least at that point that said, I'm calling my mom. and everything turned at that point. But it's making my blood boil going back through it as you spell it out, right? Like this is an old playbook. This is a real thing. This is a real thing, Megan. In fact, Juiced Miraloo, who again, he had a book called The Rape of the Mind, which has fallen completely, like no one, like it's just not something that anyone's reading and talking about.

35:18It's an incredible book. He was a psychiatrist in the Second World War. He was a prisoner of war himself and he dealt with captured Nazis. So, I mean, when you want to talk about somebody who has frontline psychiatric research against what was brainwashing before we called it that, but what was going on with members of the SS and the Gestapo and this, he wrote an incredible book. But to your point about what they did to this girl, the two, to simplify this for anybody, what are the two pillars, according to Dr. Merleau, of menticide, confusion and degradation? Keep someone confused and degrade them, and then you can remold them, you can convince them of anything.

36:00In fact, he writes, one important result of this procedure is the great confusion it creates in the mind of every observer, friend or foe. In the end, no one knows how to distinguish truth from falsehood. The totalitarian, in order to break down the minds of men, first needs widespread mental chaos and verbal confusion because they paralyze his opposition. This is this is exact. Now, yes, you can do that with a squad of like secret police in some totalitarian hellhole. But the same process of confusion and degradation from authority figures in a different context and in a free liberal democracy or free for now, the same tactics can be used.

36:46Right. So this is why I think it's so important. You can start degrading high school students for nothing. Keep them confused. Keep them degrading. Or you can start firing people for nothing, or you can just publicly humiliate them for nothing. I mean, like, it makes so much sense. You can read about it in Manufacturing Delusion, Buck Sexton's new book. We've mentioned the trans thing a couple times. There was just a mass shooting in Rhode Island yesterday that I mentioned at the top of the show by a trans person, a man claiming that he was female. But before that, there was one last Friday, which was horrific.

37:21Eight dead, 25 injured in Canada. This is at the Tumblr Ridge Secondary School in British Columbia. And this was unbelievable. The initial alert described the shooter as a female in a dress with brown hair. I mean, it's just, that's just dangerous. You're just actually endangering lives. It was a man dressed as a woman pretending to be female. And then the police later described a shooter as a gun person. They wouldn't call him a gunman, gun person, and was actually correcting people on the gender so that we didn't offend the dead mass shooter. He was a biological male who started identifying as female back in 2023.

38:05And they appeased him. They coddled him. They affirmed him. And he, like so many, including the guy who just shot up the Rhode Island ice skating rink yesterday, was driven to madness. And none of the coddling or appeasing wound up helping him. and it actually endangered their families and those around them, including the community. And even in death, in a place as fucking nutty as Canada. I'm sorry to my Canadian friends, but your country's lost its mind. They'll lecture you on pronouns, posthumously standing in a field of blood with the 25 people who are still struggling to save their lives with eight dead all around them.

38:48And yet the Canadian authorities know that by policing language and by using these, like we're all gerbils getting little electric shocks, by using these constant tools of shaping the way we discuss and therefore think about these things, we don't have to, rather, the Canadians don't necessarily come to the very obvious conclusion, which is that these people are insane and need extremely serious mental help, the ones that think that they're women or whatever. It's very obvious. It's very obvious to everybody who is thinking for themselves. And also all of the enabling that goes on is a grotesque submission to an evil ideology.

39:32I mean, this is how this has to be thought of. This is how it has to be talked about. You know, I have friends now who will refer to, they'll call them like a tranny jihadi. Essentially, these are like holy warriors for the trans agenda now in their own mind. people who think that they are standing up for a a i don't know what you even say like the the community because as you know there's verbiage or there's there's talk about how there's a trans genocide because if you won't affirm you are erasing and therefore you not using the preferred pronouns it's almost like you are making a species or a you know a group of people go extinct this is bonkersville like i yeah this is crazy and yet every major university in this country to this day pretty much still goes along with this like little automatons that are doing what they're told most of corporate america until five minutes ago was absolutely devoted to this and the democrat party to this day in this country is still doing this thing and you know We have to see this for what it is.

40:49There was Global News did a report on Friday about what happened in Canada at that mass shooting we just discussed. And listen to how they reported it. It's SOT 3. As Tumblr Ridge is grieving unimaginable loss, some community members are urging Canadians to resist division. This is really a time to put that away and to really think about compassion and love. Trans people are substantially more likely to be victims rather than perpetrators of violent crimes. There's fear around different identities. What we know is that people don't do these things because of their individual identity. Between 32 to 41 percent of trans people are estimated to have attempted suicide in their lifetimes due to stigma and discrimination.

41:36something a now removed reddit account jesseboy347 appearing to belong to van roodselaar described it really hurts i am genuinely considering taking my own life yeah i mean i mean this is what that's a sheer propaganda that that's a canadian news outlet that's fucking propaganda this is in the wake of this guy shooting over 30 people eight dead 25 injured And this is it's all about how the trans people are the real victims here. Yes, of course. No, there's a and in fact, I think you could, you know, again, I'm not a psychologist, but did a lot of research in this. It's kind of a covert narcissism, I think they call it, where we're a victim based narcissism, where no matter what you do, you're not responsible because somebody else has done something to you first.

42:28And therefore, you're absolved of all moral agency. and by the way you know that you see this with Hamas for example oh you know we had to go in with the suicide vest on and blow up a bunch of people on a pizza talking about second indifat I'm not talking about this recent war it's a whole other conversation but we had to blow up a whole bunch of people at a bar mitzvah but you know they took our land a long time ago so we got okay guys we need to actually live in the world we're in now and look at ourselves as human beings who make choices and have individual agency and this is removed from us in these in these processes where they talk about this.

43:02I also think anyone who, if you strip away the propaganda, if you strip away the confusion and degradation that is at the heart of the trans agendas menticide, both of the individuals suffering from it, but also from all the people who are supposed to clap and say, oh, and like trans affirmation and all this stuff. When they say things like 30 to 40 % of trans individuals have tried to commit suicide, which also has nothing to do with the mass shooting, Megan, which you just pointed out. Why are we trying to create sympathy? But maybe that's because they're deeply mentally ill. And instead of applause and special days in school celebrating it, we should get them help.

43:44They need help. You know, that that that is the kindness, the kindness. And I hate when people weaponize kindness because it really is the most beautiful human thing is to be kind to each other and to take care of each other. But when they say be kind, use the pronouns, pretend that the 200 pound guy who's, you know, breaking girls noses on the female lacrosse field is just a girl like everybody else. First of all, they're being quite unkind to those women. And in the case of these horrible situations with these mass shootings, it's really is evil for the state and for the society. Endangering your community.

44:23You're endangering your own kids, your society's kids. It's, that's why Bucket's like, this year we met Tish Hyman, who is now running for mayor out in LA. You know her, oh, I'm gonna show you the clip and she's gonna come to mind immediately. But that's why it's so, I call it, I always try to make this show, I call it cool water over a hot brain. You know, like I don't want the audience to ever have to work for it. You know, I want them to hear the news and it's that they understand it immediately because I didn't use a term that not everybody understands without defining it. I didn't reference a news story that not everybody knew about without giving him a quick two-liner on it.

44:57And Tish Hyman is cool water over hot rain. Tish Hyman went out to the Gold's Gym and tried to work out and saw this dude pretending to be a woman, but barely, barely, continuously stripping down in the women's locker room. And she had it. I'm going to show you the clip. You'll remember her, but she's cool water. Here it is. At Gold's Gym, men, grown men with big dicks, in the women's locker room. And that's why I'm getting kicked out. And I want to make sure the girls know. The fuck? Everybody saw that man in the fucking locker room. No one's saying shit. And I'm fucking done with this. It's fucking stupid.

45:49It's dangerous. a riot. Me naked in front of a man without my permission. I'm the one who gets kicked out the gym, y 'all. I'm terminated for not wanting men in the locker room. All right, Buck Sexton, you tell me as the author of Manufacturing Delusion, what makes a Tish Hyman say, F this. It's a no versus the so many others who get caught up in the madness, bend the knee, say the pronouns, whatever. We're just on the trans thing right now, but we can apply this across the board on the woke issues. Well, first of all, she's a she's a civil rights hero. And I know that the media will never say that, but she's standing up for the civil rights of women.

46:36Full stop. If I had a daughter, I have a little son. But if I had a daughter who was trying to work out in the gym and she had some dude next to her and, you know, the whole so we can't have gender separate spaces. We can't have women feeling safer. And anyway, we know this. But but you're asking a very important question. And I do get into this toward the end of the book. And by the one thing that I'll just note, I have a whole chapter, Megan, on how mind control in the era of of A.I. and deep fakes and possibly even brain implants like we're entering a whole new. So it's really important to understand all this stuff now and how these things work together and how these tactics are used against populations for control and for power, because that's ultimately what this is about.

47:24This is about controlling people so that you can be in power, the group, the entity, whatever, the individual. There was also incredible brilliance and beautiful thought that came out of some of the dissidents. And one of the great examples of that would be Alexander Solzhenitsyn. And his probably most famous phrase is, live not by lies. And that's a, you know, it's a very important proclamation. it's a very important mantra the woman that you showed here out at that gym and I remember that clip very well we talked about it on radio she refuses to live by the lie she just won't do it and if you go through your life that way if you refuse to live by lies it's really hard to control your brain it's really hard to make you part of the hive mind to make you a tool in someone else's quest for power to bring you into political madness, the madness of crowds.

48:25And really all starts with the individual. There's no group defense against this. That's what everyone has to do. It's all an individual. It's a group process of falling into madness, but you only return to your senses one by one, as actually Mackie in The Madness of Crowds wrote, not too far back. So yeah, that's... Buck, this is incredible. This is such an important book right now. I mean, this social experiment, this seizing of control in every corner is happening all around us. It really does explain what we have seen on the streets of Minneapolis, what we've seen when it comes to the trans madness, what we've seen when it comes to some of these mass shootings, what we've seen with the crazy race essentialism and people pretending that things are as bad right now as they were during Jim Crow.

49:14It's because these people have been the victims of manufactured delusion. That's the book, Manufacturing Delusion, How the Left Uses Brainwashing, Indoctrination, and Propaganda against you, against its own, and against you. But unlike most on the left, you actually have a shot at standing up against it and going with the live not by lies that we saw Tish Hyman stand up for as well. Buck, thank you. I love talking to you. Good luck with the book. Can I say one quick thing? Everybody go buy it, support Buck. Can I say one quick thing? I just think this is particularly full circle, Megan. And I really, first of all, I really appreciate you.

49:51And you really find out who your friends are when you've spent 18 months sweating blood and tears for a book and six months of CIA review. Who's, you know, who's got your back? You are my very first interview on pub day. You were the first person that I wanted to talk to about this book. And I think it's full circle because you're also the first person who ever put me on primetime TV when no one had any idea who I was. And look how it's all worked out. I knew you were going to be a star. Thank you. I knew it. I appreciate you very much. Listen, I'd love to say it's all benevolent, but thank you for your excellence.

50:23You're always fascinating to talk to, Buck. I never walk away from a segment with you thinking anything other than, my God, he's so smart. Thanks for your being here and thanks for writing this. This is truly an important book. Awesome. Thanks, everyone. All right, guys, check it out. Manufacturing Delusion. Get it today. As you well know, the New York Times is not going to be doing a nice spread on Buck and his book. So we need to support him and give a middle finger to the New York Times and tell them we decide who's going to be a best-selling author, not them. Okay. Manufacturing Delusion by Buck Sexton.

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53:59We are now more than two weeks since Nancy Guthrie went missing in Tucson, Arizona. She lives with a pacemaker. Plus, we are told she needs medication to stay alive and has limited mobility. In other words, time is and has been of the essence. And yet, we don't know where she is. And day after day after day, we are seeing a delay on the processing of the DNA found on those black gloves that were found two miles from Nancy Guthrie's home because this local sheriff refused to send the gloves to the FBI lab at Quantico, insisted on using his lab in Florida, and apparently they're having real difficulty due to the FBI protocols in uploading any of that information or making sure it's of the quality needed in order to run it into the federal database that compares the DNA to that of known criminals, or CODIS.

54:49It would have been nice if he could have just cooperated with the FBI and conceded that it's possible the gold standard lab at Quantico might do a better job. But it appears to many of us that this is a turf war in the sheriff's mind only. And rather than using all the resources of the FBI in order to expedite things, because there's an 84 year old woman who's missing and maybe dying, he wants to protect his turf. He likes to be in control. There's something very off about this sheriff. Very off. Okay. Yesterday, we told you during our show that while the sheriff was trying to say or NBC News at that point had said they're moving away from the family.

55:30Then after the show, the sheriff came out and said, none of the family members a suspect. I'm saying it affirmatively. The family members are not suspects in this case. Okay, that's not consistent with what we were told by our federal law enforcement sources, which was no one's been ruled out. No one has been ruled out, including members of the family. Diametrically opposed information. So we decided to go back and say, all right, well, what is it? The sheriff's the sheriff. He may have learned something that changed what he told the Daily Mail on Sunday, which was the same as our federal source.

56:08No one's been ruled out. That was Sunday. Then Monday, the sheriff said all the family's been ruled out. What happened? Do we get DNA back? Do we get a polygraph? Do we get phone data? What did we get? Here is what we got.

56:25The sheriff, according to Matt Finn of Fox News, Matt reports, quote, I just asked Sheriff Nonos if DNA helped clear the Guthrie family from being suspects. He says, quote, not going there. They are victims and I will not stand quiet when they are re-victimized. It is not just my duty. It is every cop's duty to stand up and be the voice for victims. What? Enter Tom Winter of NBC News, who reports it explicitly, quote, there is no indication this is the result of any new evidence. no indication this is a result of any new evidence whatsoever so what happened here quite clearly is the sheriff decided probably after a phone call from the family he says he mostly speaks to savannah to just say nobody there is a suspect anymore when 24 hours earlier he said no one's been cleared and that's what we were told by our federal law enforcement source too no one has been cleared.

57:22But magically, over the course of 24 hours, because it's his duty to stand up and be the voice for the victims and will not stand quiet when they are re-victimized, the sheriff finds the wherewithal to say, just no one's a suspect in the family. Okay, maybe that's true. Maybe they're not the prime suspects now. Maybe they're moving away from the family, as NBC reported yesterday. But it's diametrically opposed to what both the sheriff said 24 hours earlier and what my sources said within hours of our reporting yesterday. Okay? So something's off. And we don't do feelings in a criminal investigation.

58:01We don't do feelings. We do facts. Okay? That's how it's supposed to work. And the sheriff should know better. It's actually quite interesting now because I'll show you what the douchebag Chris Cuomo is saying. In fact, let's just play it now. It's 52. He's very upset that Ashley Banfield and yours truly have raised questions about the brother-in-law, Ashley's reporting. And based on Ashley's reporting, we've asked questions on this program. And here's Fredo Cuomo on his little known show on News Nation, which has less viewers than I have fingers. Now, look, I've never heard law enforcement make this kind of a statement during an investigation, and I'm not calling for the family to be removed from suspicion.

58:44The job is the job, right? But the job is also you don't speculate just because you don't care that you're destroying this family just because it may get you some clicks. But I want to correct something the sheriff said. It's not the media. No one who pays attention to the law or any standard of decency is doing this. What these digital people are doing. It's the digital media. It's those denizens. It's people who get paid for clicks and rage bait. All right. These fugazi, sloppy influencers and would be sleuths. Right. The truth about whether Nancy Guthrie's family is under scrutiny. She doesn't know a damn thing.

59:24The reason the cops are going back to the comb is because the police think she did it. Where'd she get that? Bullshit. The video messages from the family are like a movie. It's from Silence of the Lambs. Why are they doing that? Okay. So let me tell you what Fredo is really upset about. He has Fredo no Rado. That's his real problem. Nobody watches his show on News Nation, and I mean nobody. And nobody watches his failed podcast either. Nobody watched his serious radio show. Nobody watched him on CNN. And therefore, he gets upset at anybody who does well, like our show, which is always one of the top three conservative podcasts in the nation.

1:00:07It's currently number one on Apple. Fredo doesn't like that, okay? Because as I say, Fredo no rado. So he gets upset and he gets jealous. Sometimes in the past on this show, we've called out Fredo for his terrible behavior, for his bad ratings, for his lies about bumping into people who just happen to be listening to his podcast, because literally nobody does. And Fredo can't take criticism. And I'll tell you something I've never told before. Fredo actually called my lawyer, who he happened to use briefly on a legal matter, and begged the lawyer to get me to stop mentioning him. He didn't want me to attack him because it hurt his little feelings.

1:00:48So now Fredo sees an opportunity to attack yours truly because, of course, we're doing well with this story too, as we do when we do other news, which Fredo can't relate to. So Fredo's upset and Fredo's trying to play the protector of the Guthrie family. Meanwhile, there are few in news who have done more for the Guthrie family than this show. We have covered this story extensively since it broke because Fredo doesn't understand, but I too am a news woman like Savannah. I too worked at the Today Show like Savannah Guthrie. I too have been the victim of a deranged stalker, which may be one of the possibilities here.

1:01:27Something Fredo doesn't realize we've covered extensively as well on this program. I too know Ashley Banfield extremely well, and she's had extremely solid reporting for 20 years in the crime and other fields as well. And so when she tells me she's got a solid source, I take her very seriously. And I also saw this matter being discussed, guess where else? On News Nation, all around Fredo, by Elizabeth Vargas, by Jesse Weber, Dan Abrams, who had the show right before Chris Cuomo for years, did a long segment on it with Ashley Banfield. It's all over Fox News. Jesse Waters, Sean Hannity, up and down the lineup, Laura Ingraham, all of them have discussed whether the brother-in-law had anything to do with it because in an investigation like this, you don't rule out family because of feelings, because of your little feelings, Fredo, because I know you're in the business of protecting your family.

1:02:17Okay, we learned that firsthand during COVID when you put your loser brother on there and ran cover for him. And then ultimately, it was one of the things that led to your downfall because you didn't report honestly on his many, many problems during COVID or his many, many problems in grabbing women. And perhaps the reason you chose not to do that is because you yourself were accused of having a Me Too problem, as you well know. Okay, we had the senior executive producer on this program who talked all about you and your behavior in a bar with her. There was another woman at CNN who came forward against you, who did a whole podcast about the discomfort you made her feel.

1:02:52And then there was an anonymous woman who came forward who was the last straw before your firing. So you have a long history, I understand, of running cover for family. That's not what we do here on the actual news. We talk about what the police are doing, and we try to glean where the investigation is going. And we especially do that when we have a sheriff who repeatedly, when asked whether anyone has been ruled out, says no. No one's been ruled out. Absolutely not. Not the family. No one. No one's been ruled out. Everyone remains a suspect until we have somebody in handcuffs. That's the way you do it.

1:03:27And you especially do it that way when the sheriff tows the car belonging to the sister and her husband and impounds it. You do that when the sheriff and the FBI continuously return to the sister and her husband's home, taking pictures in the middle of the night with the lights off, suggesting there may be something that they need to capture in the same hour of night as Nancy Guthrie went missing from her home. Go back time and time and time again to search the home and take belongings from the home and take photographs of the home, which is not the crime scene. So this is what a responsible reporter does.

1:04:07What they don't do is stage news. Okay, I just, I need to help you, Fredo, because you're a little begging to my lawyer to get me to lay off if you didn't work. So this is what you're gonna have to deal with, actual facts when you try to come for yours truly. This is what we don't do. We do cover facts, we do follow leads, but we don't stage news, Fredo. We do not pretend that we are walking out of the basement, our basement during COVID, haven't smelled the fresh air, in months when everybody knows you were on the street in an altercation involving your bicycle weeks earlier. Remember this moment on CNN?

1:04:47All right, here is the official reentry from the basement, cleared by CDC, a little sweaty, just worked out, happens. This is what I've been dreaming of literally for weeks. My wife, she was cleared by the CDC. She doesn't have fever. She doesn't have the symptoms anymore. More than seven days from quarantine. We're still a little scared. So I'll just give you one of these. Just give you one of these. Just give you one of these. Just give you one of these. Bella has of course taken the video. This is the dream. This is for when we go outside. That's what we have to do now, all of us in New York.

1:05:29So anyway, I'm back. His mask. It was all fake. He'd been on the street. It had made the New York Post and he humiliated himself. And he continues to humiliate himself with his four viewers. Envy is a very unattractive thing, Fredo. Work on that. In any event, we've had a few updates since our show yesterday, including News Nation's Brian Enten saying the FBI is now visiting gun stores with a list of 40 names and 40 photos. That's very interesting. Agents are asking whether the people on the list have purchased a gun at that store that they're visiting. It's unclear if all 40 are persons of interest or what exactly is happening there.

1:06:13I have a theory, but more importantly, my panel's going to have thoughts. Joining me now for reaction, Chad Ayers, former SWAT team leader, former Navy SEAL and FBI special agent Jonathan Gilliam and Maureen O 'Connell, a 25-year-old veteran of the FBI and co-host of the Best Case, Worst Case podcast. Great to see you all. Welcome back, guys. So it's very interesting to me. We'll get to the gun stories in a second. But the fact that the sheriff comes out, Jonathan, just based on feelings, it's my obligation, he says, that they are victims and I will not stand quiet when they are re-victimized.

1:06:51It's just my duty. It's every cop's duty to stand up and be the voice for victims. With NBC reporting, there is no indication this is the result of any new evidence whatsoever. So what is the sheriff doing? Well, I think he's making an emotional statement, and it's not based in fact, because you can't clear people unless you know the motive and you You know, you have suspects and you have and perhaps they do have that stuff. And he's not saying, but he's not the voice of the family. And he doesn't speak for the family. He is there leading an investigation. And so, you know, as you go through and do case study after case study, you'll see where law enforcement has cleared family members before, only to come back years later and find out that it was a family member that profited from the death of someone and actually either hired somebody to do it or carried it out in some way that they just weren't able to find until later on.

1:07:53So, listen, if it was one misspeak by this sheriff, that would be one thing. But he keeps saying and doing things that I think have put this investigation in real jeopardy. And I think any time that you tell the public that you need to calm down or tell the media you need to calm down, the problem with that is that you're losing that force multiplier. So instead of saying these people are no longer a suspect, they're cleared, he should just come out and say, listen, the vitriol is getting so bad against people that you have no evidence against and we're not looking at currently that you're causing threats.

1:08:31You're causing potential danger to these families, and I need that to stop because it's hampering the investigation. You see how much better that would have been if he would have said that? I mean, this guy, he's pointed out once that one of the reporters asked him a question. She had a name that resembled a male's name, and he got into a conversation laughing about that. This is like two days after this disappearance. And so I think that he just—he's been in—it says law enforcement in his bio for 50 years, But for somebody who's been in law enforcement for 50 years, he does not know how to work the media.

1:09:06And he certainly does not know how to run a task force investigation that utilizes all the tools in the toolbox. Well, here's what's crazy, Maureen. Now he's saying to Local 13 News that the family's been 100 percent cooperative, if he said that before, and that family members were ruled out as suspects in the first few days. Now, if he means Savannah, I can accept that. I believe she was in New York at the time her mother went missing. But if he's referring to Annie and Tomas, it's a lie. That's a lie. And we know it's a lie because we need only to look back at the sheriff's own statements. Here he is in a montage dating back since the beginning of this case in SOT 50.

1:09:50Nobody's eliminated, but we just really don't have enough to say this is our suspect. This is our guy. We know or our gal. We just don't know that are you actively investigating the son-in-law in this case you said you haven't eliminated everybody Have you eliminated him or come close to it? We're actively looking at everybody we come across in this case everybody is so cliche Everybody's still a suspect in our eyes. That's just how we look at things and thank you as cops Does that mean we have a prime suspect? No, and and and the family has been very cooperative very they they they've done everything we've asked of them.

1:10:28And we want that relationship to continue. And sometimes people can be mean out there and that can really harm us and harm our efforts. Weird, Maureen, that doesn't that doesn't sound the same to me as all the family members have been ruled out as suspects from day one. No, it doesn't. And he acts as if we're all being unreasonable for even questioning whether or not Annie and her husband are involved when, as I've said numerous times, and all of us on this panel here, we've done a number of rollback warrants to different locations, but I've never done six on one location. I mean, we're the ones following the facts.

1:11:17When law enforcement shows up at a house over and over and over and seizes a vehicle, you know, and then the one, her husband, Tommaso, has been completely out of pocket. No one has seen him since that day he did like that, you know, the gangster lean in his car trying to get away from the press, we're not the ones being unreasonable here. And the only thing that this sheriff has said that has been definitive and decisive since the very beginning of this case was this report that the whole family is just not even in the crosshairs for this investigation any longer. Don't even think about it. Don finito.

1:12:02Well, that's going to be a big problem If we can't bring someone to justice, and then as our other panel member said, and then two years or three years down the road, we get additional information, and now we're saying, oh, yeah, someone is in the frame for this again. Now what are we going to do? It's going to cause problems for the trial. You've got to think about the trial more. Focus on what this trial is going to look like. Chad, I think about, you know, the the Tomas is who people have speculated about originally based on Ashley Banfield's reporting, but also because obviously you look at the family first.

1:12:39And you know who else you look at? You look at the last person we know for a fact to have seen her. And that is Tomas Sioni, Annie's husband. How do we know that? From the sheriff. The sheriff told us that he said it to the New York Times on the record and then admitted that when he went back to that presser and said, we're going to go with just the family. He changed that only because he didn't want to draw too much attention onto Tomas. Well, that's the most foolhardy thing ever. You can't say I'm changing it from Tomas to just the family because I want to remove any suspicion or focus on Tomas, especially when you've been going to his house overnight repeatedly.

1:13:23You've sent people in there to search who have left with evidence bags. And we know that you impounded the family car and you refuse over and over again to say that he's not a suspect on camera to reporters from the beginning of the case. I mean, the sheriff needs some serious media training. So obviously, he's not good at crisis management either. He's not good at crime scene management at all. We've got investigators discarding their gloves. We've had, I still do not understand why Nancy's house was not roped off, taped off, sealed until she's brought home. We talked about that the other day.

1:13:58We are seeing sloppy, sloppy investigations going on here. And just like Maureen said, this very well, Megan, can affect the trial if and when someone is brought into custody for this. So, again, what is going on? This is police 101. I mean, this sheriff's acting like he's on Paw Patrol. This is policing 101. You start with the family. You start with the people who last saw Nancy, family. So, again, in this back and forth stuff, this is why nobody has any credibility with this guy. It's so true. And he's not doing anybody any favors. If this were me and my mother, God forbid, I wouldn't care if they focused on me, my husband, my brother-in-law, my sister-in-law, anybody.

1:14:42I would not. As long as they were still talking about my case, I'd be thrilled. That's it. What does the family of every missing person want? Media coverage. They would give anything to have the three of you moderating a panel about their missing loved one. Day in, day out. If they had to be the subject of the speculation, so be it. The whole point is to keep your loved one in the news so that people are still thinking about her and looking for her. That's the name of the game. It's the only name of the game when it comes to finding a missing person, assuming you have a competent law enforcement leader who's going after the search.

1:15:23Now, in the meantime, it does appear that they're pursuing other avenues, which are good shoe leather police work. And that leads me to the FBI going into these gun shops and asking if they know anybody, if anybody on this list of the 40 names or the 40 pictures has been in there to buy a gun. What is that all about, Maureen? I'll start with you on it. I think what they're doing is it seems to me as soon as I heard that number that they probably have about six suspects that they're looking at. And the gold standard for like a photo array or for what we call a six pack is to have one defendant or one person we're looking at in with five other innocent people.

1:16:08So if you, you know, divide 40 by six, you get a little over six. So I think they have six people they're looking at, maybe seven. And they put them in photo arrays with known individuals that don't have any criminal backgrounds or others. And they're showing them to the gun owners with a whole list of names just to see if anything pops out. But it's a way to look into everyone without telling them who you're looking at exactly, if that makes sense. Yes, yes. They have to do it this way, Jonathan, because they can't. It'll be a bad lineup if they don't. Sure. It won't be admissible. Yeah. And also, you know, we were so stuck on talking about DNA that sources and other methods that the FBI and law enforcement in general have.

1:16:55You know, when these people do bad things, they usually usually and typically run in a bad crowd and people will give hints or they'll talk about or they'll tell in confidence another bad guy what they've done. And so sources that we have that are paid sources or they're working off a debt, those individuals can spring an investigation forward, you know, very quickly. And that could be where some of this information is coming from, you know. And so when you do get a list of names and you go out there and you float these things, It's just showing me that just like Brown University, where they were having these terrible press conferences and people were like, what is going on there?

1:17:40Well, the investigators were there just killing it, man. They were doing incredible work. And that investigation was closed very quickly. And I think that's probably what's happening here, that despite the sheriff, the FBI and the investigators, even though we've heard that the investigators on the case for the sheriff, that he kind of cleaned house and has very inexperienced investigators running that case. But I still think that there's people there that are really working hard. What I also don't see, which when you got to look at the totality of the circumstances of these things, is the fact that, you know, they found one glove in like 15 or at least a dozen gloves that have been thrown down by searchers.

1:18:24The FBI said they found 16. Right. So so gloves that searchers have thrown down. So what that tells me is there's a lack of standard operating procedures, a lack of briefing, which signals a lack of control by the investigative lead agency, which is the sheriff's department. That's a good point. I mean, I'm hearing the same thing, Chad, which is that there are a bunch of novices in the sheriff's office with respect to those who are serving, that they're all maybe two years under the job, three years at most. And so these are baby homicide cops and don't have the experience when it comes to investigating cases like this of the ones who left because they can't stand working under the sheriff.

1:19:04Some of that seems to be manifesting in the case. The FBI, however, with this, you know, visiting of the gun stores thing sounds that they sound like they're on their game. Forty names and 40 photos asking the gun stores to tell them whether or not these people have been inside the store and whether they have purchased a gun. Can I read on something? Oh, sorry, Chad. No, go ahead, Chad. Sorry. No, I was just saying we'll do Chad and then Maureen. Yeah, no, real quick. I think it's just important to know that obviously in these gun stores, you go in to purchase a firearm, you fill out the ATF Form 4, ask you a bunch of questions.

1:19:39So that's great. It's a great starting point. Obviously, we know this person was armed. We saw it. Is it possible that they've used some digital enhancement and able to identify what kind of firearm that is? Possibly. But again, coming from my side, I also know that many times criminals aren't going to gun stores and purchasing their firearms. Most of them are purchased off the streets. These things are hot anyways. Not ideal. Go ahead, Maureen. I was just going to say, I'm not going to throw the sheriff's department under the bus. And even if someone only has three to five years experience, if you had a really good training officer or a really good detective that was training you for those three years, you're going to make really good, solid decisions.

1:20:23I know that they're pouring their heart and souls into this. I can see them out there working. They're all paired up with FBI agents. And we learn from each other in these instances. So I'm not going to go down that road with, I mean, with, you know, just throwing that whole department under the bus because I don't believe that's fair. And with regard to the gloves, those 17 other gloves that they found, they had a bunch of volunteers out there doing as part of the search and rescue team, and they're going to have a different standard with regard to evidence and evidence collection and how we do things.

1:20:59And then they had the support employees or the civilian employees that were also out there that are also a part of that contingent, that group. And then they had the sworn officers. Each of those groups has a different standard for what they do. They should be trained at the same level, but oftentimes they aren't. And, you know, when the FBI comes in, we always have a bag that we designate from the beginning, hey guys, this is where all our trash goes. So our Tyvek suits, gloves, everything like that goes into that one bag. But there's been more than one occasion when that bag has blown off and stuff's flying all over the place and you're trying to pick it up.

1:21:38So there are things that happen. Obviously, they should have all been picked up. None of them should have been left there. But there are mitigating circumstances to a certain extent. Well, that's the thing is that we've got so many eggs in the basket of these gloves and the DNA analysis being done by the Florida lab, which is completed. But now it has to be uploaded onto CODIS to see if it matches any of the perps in the federal database. but they won't upload it until they've been assured that like the quality of it is adequate. I don't totally understand what the FBI is doing there, but I guess they're not going to upload it until it's of a certain quality.

1:22:15And now they're saying it has to be shipped back to Arizona and then to Quantico. All of this is like Nancy Guthrie could be lying dying somewhere. I mean, truly like many of us think she may have already passed, but what if she hasn't? What if she is sitting there clinging to life and really can't go many more days without her heart medication and is wondering what's going to happen to her. We should not have a delay over lab processing, but that's where we are. On the other hand, Chad, we do have some promising possibilities on the backpack and Walmart. Okay, the New York Post is reporting that detectives have been handed their, quote, most promising lead yet, according to a former top cop who they interviewed, who said that Walmart has now handed over the purchase records for backpacks that match the one used by the perp, the abductor.

1:23:08It's a black Ozark trail hiker. They're 99 % sure that's what it is. And that bag is sold exclusively at Walmart. So that's great. Now they do point out, look, it doesn't mean couldn't have wound up at a Goodwill or a thrift store or a flea market or been gifted by somebody to somebody else. But let's face it, the overwhelming odds are that this guy bought it and he bought it at a Walmart. And so they're going back now and trying to figure out, thanks to like the SKU numbers, you know, where you scan your little number when you buy something, who bought these backpacks, when, where, and trying to find videotape that'll match the transaction and any other identifying information.

1:23:52I mean, this seems to me like good old fashioned police work. Very good. One thing I can say about Walmart is they have phenomenal technology and cameras in there. Every register has a camera in it. We know we have them at the entrances, the parking lots. So what will be really interesting is I did read one thing and it may have been on X or something that they believe that type of ski mask is also sold at Walmart. So what a golden egg this would be, Megan. If all of a sudden you see the guy with the old soul patch and the backpack and the ski mask, at that point, you better start stretching and get ready because things are going to start moving really quickly.

1:24:35But it's almost like a tale as old as times. How many Dateline episodes or crime shows have we seen where they go back and this is how they're caught? They go back to the Walmart, the Ace Hardware, and you see them buying the type of equipment to dispose of a body or to break in or whatever. Duct tape. Exactly. It's a shovel. It's duct tape. It's a tarp. It's Like every other dateline. We're still dealing with the criminal guys. This is still a criminal, right? Criminals aren't smart. They do screw up. And I get it. I'm sitting there going, well, this guy's covered his tracks pretty well so far, but there's still criminals.

1:25:07And somewhere he has screwed up in that crime scene. You know, the only. Well, that's the thing, Jonathan, this guy, he will not. He didn't think he was going to get caught on camera that night at Nancy Guthrie's. He did. He did not think so. You know, he wore his little ski mask to protect his identity. than he thought he was hiding or covering up that camera and then eventually took it down. I'm sure he was shocked to learn that there were still images of him. So what are the odds when he bought this backpack? We're told if it's the backpack they think it's only available at Walmart. What are the odds this guy was there buying it thinking I've got to hide my identity here.

1:25:43They're going to figure out I had this backpack. Meanwhile, he thought he wouldn't even be on camera. They're going to figure out I have the backpack though and I got to hide the trip to Walmart. I just I maybe I'm wrong, but even the D.C. pipe bomber accused, who seemed like autistic and yet very smart in some ways, had bought like pieces of that bomb in this radio shack and that store and this store and the other store and waited years between the purchases to make it look less suspicious. but they pieced it all together. What are the odds that this guy, Mr. I'm going to shove some vegetation on it, was so meticulous in the lead up that every single purchase was masked in a way that he's not identifiable?

1:26:21But they're thinking it's hard to understand these criminals in the way that they think. I mean, one thing is they're bold enough and comfortable enough with walking onto somebody's porch at 2 a.m. and then going in, breaking in, and staying in there for what we know at least 41 minutes. That's the comfort zone that they work in, which is, you know, it can be a psychopathic type of where they don't have a conscience like we would typically have, and so they don't feel the emotions like we feel. So they can go in and do these things, but it doesn't mean that they're good at what they do. And so what we typically see, and again, And, you know, yeah, I've been in the FBI and done all the other things, but watching 48 hours, binge watching that for years and years, what you're going to see are statistics and behaviors and things that come out with these people.

1:27:13And they do things because they don't have the conscience and they're not scared, but they make these gigantic mistakes or micro mistakes that really giant investigators are able to go out and find. So I think that diligent investigation and agencies that do their work in a fast is smooth, smooth is slow. And when they do that and they really take in all things into account, you will see these mistakes that these criminals make. And it's profound. We mistake, though, we say all the time that this was a, what's the word that they use, that this was an advanced or that this person had some type of expertise in this.

1:27:58I mean, as we see with that guy, his expertise was walking up, covering himself completely up and walking into a home. But I'm sure he didn't think that when he dropped that glove a mile or more away from the home, that that was going to be found by investigators. I'm positive that he didn't think that. Well, if that's his. Yeah. If that's his. We don't. And one caveat to that bag, I will say, and to Walmart is that they do live very close to the border and there are Walmarts in Mexico. So he could have gotten that bag in Mexico. And if that's the case, then it throws a whole nother problem into the end of the case.

1:28:36And we're also told that the Tucson Walmart does not have that ski mask. They don't care. They don't keep them in stock. And so that would have to be an online purchase if he got that at Walmart. I mean, that one could have come from Amazon, etc. So that one may be a little tougher to track. Maureen, can I ask you yesterday, I did the show without you guys, and the breaking news yesterday morning was that a local reporter in Tucson was claiming, based on an inside source, she didn't describe it as law enforcement, etc., that this whole case has moved closer to believing that, A, Nancy may be alive, and B, that this was a burglary gone bad.

1:29:16Now, no sooner did she take to the airwaves and report that than both of the Fox News reporters on this, citing their federal sources, said getting serious pushback on that, on both pieces of it. They're not saying Nancy's dead. They're just saying, don't sign me up for we believe she's, you know, we strongly believe she's still alive. And the burglary thing, but she's standing by her sources and she's had good reporting thus far. Do you believe that this was plausibly a burglary gone bad? No. No, I don't. And I don't know of many burglars that go into a house, don't take anything of value other than a female victim who's practically immobile.

1:30:00So no, I don't think that's, I wonder who her source is and what they heard that they misunderstood because it just doesn't seem to make any sense to me at all i wouldn't rule it i wouldn't rule it out though i wouldn't rule it out and i hope that they don't why not because the reason i i rule it out is because he didn't take anything other than nancy that we know of if you're gonna steal and it well yes but i mean i feel like the sheriff would have told us if there we have reason to believe there was some burglary there was a burglary aspect of it i feel like he would maybe i'm wrong but he he you know like you you break in there you're gonna to steal something.

1:30:38Maybe you bump into the homeowner. Maybe she got up for a cup of tea in the middle of the night because she couldn't sleep and you decide you're going to take her because she saw your face or what have you. Aren't you at least going to take your loot too? You're going to take something besides the old lady and the hassle. It could be. Well, yeah, it could be. But see, first of all, we don't know what he did or didn't take. We don't know at what point if he was in there burglarizing the home when she woke up. She could have woken up immediately and he injured her or killed her immediately. And then he tried to, he spent 40 something minutes trying to figure out how to get her out of there.

1:31:13Also, I've heard people talking about, well, his backpack is full. Well, you know, every time I order something online, like a drone or something, I get a backpack with it and it's cheap. And that guy could have had 20 bags stuck inside that backpack that he has. So we don't know what his intent was. So that's why I just say I don't rule these things out. Just like I wouldn't rule out the family being a suspect or actually having paid somebody to carry out this crime. As investigator I take these each possible lead or each possible theory and I put them on a dry erase board and then as the evidence comes in then I will chart that evidence underneath that one particular avenue of approach that I'm looking at.

1:31:58And so as crazy as it may sound, there's always a plausibility. And I think when you look at the fact that we don't actually know when and what happened inside that house, then you can't say that his intent was not to show up there and rob the place. I want to talk about a couple of other possibilities here because, you know, we've been talking about the other possibility, but there's a few, you know, there's, yes, I suppose burglary gone bad is one of them. I don't think it's the most plausible, but okay, it's one of them. One of the leans is family member who wanted to get rid of Nancy for some reason.

1:32:35One of the leans is stalker of Savannah Guthrie who wanted to get closer to her, wanted to hurt her, something like that, you know, doing something to the mother they couldn't get close enough to Savannah. And then there's also the possibility of just random ne 'er-do-well. Worker. Or somebody who didn't like Nancy. Yeah, a worker who Nancy didn't give him a good enough tip. Nancy said the wrong thing. They, whatever, they saw an opportunity. And there is still the possibility of legit kidnapper who decided to like steal this old lady because she had a famous daughter and he thought he could extract a bunch of money from her.

1:33:08So there's a couple of those lanes that I wanted to explore with you guys today, including stalker, Savannah stalker. However, it just so happens that just this week, a BBC presenter, that's what they call them over there, news anchor who is Scottish. She works for Scotland's BBC. Or is it GB? In any event, she's a UK broadcaster for the BBC, and she's Scottish. Her name is Anne McAlpine. And she just came out this week and gave an interview about having been stalked by an erotomaniac. A guy who very wrongly believed that they were in a relationship, even though they had never, ever met. And here is what she said in Sat 61.

1:33:57It was letters that started coming to my work. And they were declarations of love, poems, gifts, CDs, cards, those sort of things. So more than fan letters. Yeah, and they were quite frequent in nature as well. Sometimes I would receive up to three or four in one week over the course of about eight to 12 months. Didn't think a huge amount of them at the time. I didn't find them particularly threatening. Unpleasant and uncomfortable, certainly, yes, and a bit of a nuisance. But a lot of the time, these letters would end up in the bin, depending on where I was when I read them. So they were in block capitals, all signed off by the same name.

1:34:38So there was a reference point, there was a name, and they were also dated. but I got engaged at the end of 2021 and the tone in the letters sort of shifted. Why? Because the engagement was public? Yes and I think this person seemed to think that we were in some sort of relationship. They would comment on the clothes that I wore on TV, the way that I moved, the way I held my pen. They thought I was giving subliminal messages through the television. Chad, that is so chilling because as I told you guys, that's exactly what happened to me with my stalker who was an erotomaniac back when I first started at Fox News.

1:35:18He thought he was getting messages from me through my hand gestures on television. He thought that we had some whole coded language that we spoke to one another, all of which was made up by this unwell person. And there you see it happening to this gal, too. Is it possible that it was happening to Savannah Guthrie, too, whether she knew it or not? And this person saw a soft target featured in that Today Show segment she did about her mom, where she went to Tucson and showed off Tucson, and they sat in a Tucson bar and had margaritas three months before this happened. Well, I'm sure that the FBI is diving into Savannah's unread or, you know, how your texts or the Instagram messages go to a separate folder if you're not friends with people.

1:36:03I'm sure they're diving into that. But Megan, you bring up a great point. We have seen an increase and there's a term out there called extreme misogyny. And that's these guys, predominantly men that just have this hatred. They get a friend request or they see someone on TV and they truly believe that this is a mental illness and that they are being invited into some type of relationship or that this person is communicating with them. And when they do not get what they are looking for, that extreme misogyny, they turn to violence. It is hard, though, to wrap my head that this person would turn and kidnap an 84-year-old woman to take out your anger.

1:36:46But I guess it is plausible. It is possible. If you want to affect the hearts of a young woman, go take her mother. I mean, that's one of the reasons why this story is so compelling and has so many eyeballs, which is like, who takes somebody's mom? You know, it's just like, it's just, has it ever happened before? Somebody's mom got stolen? That's like one of the things. It's so bizarre that we're all searching for some explanation. Let me play one more soundbite on it. Yeah, go ahead, Chad. No, just one more thing, because I think you've done a really good job. There's so many keyboard investigators out here that are saying, hey, I'm getting tired in this case, yada, yada, yada.

1:37:25We have a family whose mother is missing. Anybody out there that had a mother or a loved one that would go missing would be begging for investigators, and just like you said, in the media, to be covering this 24-7 until you brought them home. Yes, this is a little bit more high profile because of who Savannah is. It doesn't matter if it was Tom, Dick, or Harry down the street. Someone's mother's missing, and law enforcement's out there doing the best they can. One other soundbite from Anchor Ann McAlpine, SOT62. And so there was a situation where I was getting dropped off by a friend and colleague after a late shift.

1:38:03It was dark. And this man was standing in the middle of the road holding a carrier bag. Outside your home. Outside my home. Yeah. He approached the car. I was still in the car talking to my friend. He held eye contact, was walking towards me quite slowly. And something just felt really off. He didn't look friendly. He didn't look like he was looking for directions. He didn't look like he was going to speak even. and he came right up to the passenger side of the car, just looked in, and I said to my friend, listen, I think you should drive off. We locked the doors and drove off, and then I called my husband to come to the front door to meet me.

1:38:40So that was the first incident outside the house. Yeah, and it sort of intensified after that, a few months after that. My neighbours were involved as well because he was trying to gain access to the house. He was buzzing the flat in the middle of the night. He would stand in the middle of the road, just look up at the window. What, in the middle of the night? Yeah, yeah. The first time was in the middle of the night and then he was sort of sitting on my steps waiting for me. All right, Maureen, my point is if you were like this about Savannah Guthrie, you couldn't get anywhere near her. She is too well protected.

1:39:12That's all I'll say. But trust me, she is. But you could get near her exposed 84 year old mom. Right. And she's got a good security team, Savannah does, and they were in contact with the police shortly after, you know, this event unfolded, began to unfold. And they were working on anybody that was, you know, looking at her from afar or from close up. But, you know, she just had that surgery a couple weeks ago, and she was in a hospital. On her vocal cords. Yeah. And, you know, maybe her mom was the emergency contact. Maybe that is something that sparked something like this in someone. But, you know, having...

1:39:58Or the Today Show feature. Yeah. Well, there's one thing that anyone with two eyeballs can say for sure, and that is Savannah Anna Guthrie loves her mom unbelievably, just like a lot of us or have. You could just see it. It was so apparent and it was so beautiful to see. So if you did want to exercise some sort of control over her, that would be a way to do it. But something's got to be done to stop this nonsense because, I mean, going all the way back to, you know, the early 80s, I was a victim of a stalker when it really wasn't even a word yet. And everyone was just like, oh, you just got to deal with it.

1:40:39No, I don't have to deal with it. Finally, my mom did. And then my uncle and then some other police officers stepped up to try to help the situation. It's illegal. It's totally illegal. It wasn't illegal then. That woman, that Scottish broadcaster, got a restraining order for life against the guy after a criminal trial. So he'll never be bothering her again. Ming, can I say some of this? Yeah. Well, hold that thought because I got to take a quick break. We're going to come back. I know Chad's got to run, but I am going to play you Savannah Guthrie on kidnapping from her book in an incredible excerpt that's next.

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1:45:20And many more. It's bold, no BS news. Only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

1:45:33Welcome back to the Megyn Kelly show. We're back now with our panel, and I'm kind of stunned by what we have here. This was found online originally by somebody on X who goes by at McCann case tweet. And this woman, I don't know, flagged that Savannah's book, which was released in February of 2024, discussed a game she used to play as a kid with her cousin. And it was a kidnapping game involving Nancy. So we pulled the audio that Savannah did of her book. In it, you're going to hear her talk about her cousin Terry, who was, she said, like an aunt to her growing up. Terry's 20 years older than Savannah, so Terry would be 74 right now.

1:46:21But listen to this. About once a year in the summertime, cousin Terry orchestrated a kidnapping of my sister and me. It went down like this. The cousins would visit for a few days at our house in Tucson, and then on the morning they were to leave, Terry would wake us up early, shushing us in the pre-dawn darkness as we made our escape. We would all pile into her rickety station wagon and head north, the sky streaking with bright oranges and pinks as the sun rose over the colorless desert landscape. Somewhere between Phoenix and Tucson, Terry would make a pit stop and let Annie and me call home at a payphone.

1:46:59Mom, Cousin Terry kidnapped us to take us to her house. My mother would feign shock, protest how terribly she would miss us, and assure us she'd drive up to retrieve us in a few days. Jonathan, that is just eerie. It's eerie. She released that in 2024, talking about kidnapping and her mom and her sister and Savannah, a cousin. I don't know about Cousin Terry. I'm not sure whether Cousin Terry is still in the picture or what, but I'm not suggesting Cousin Terry is behind this, But I'm suggesting that just the mere discussion of kidnapping amongst the Guthrie family is potentially the kind of thing that could put an idea in somebody's head, could potentially be relevant in trying to track down where somebody first got the notion of a kidnapping in the Guthrie's.

1:47:48And then you have three months ago, Savannah with her mom in Tucson on the Today Show showing off where they eat, where they hang out. I'm just trying to piece together how this possibly could have even come about since the idea of kidnapping a mom is unfathomable to most of us. Yeah, that is, there's a lot of detail to that story. And so, you know, I have a degree in political science and psychology, double major that is, I call it a double useless degree. But some of the things that I do remember out of psychology that really stands out is that there was one woman who had one of the case studies.

1:48:24She had like 14 different personalities and she had a sister. Well, they were both abused as children and her mom, their mom would do things like when they were, she felt they were being bad. She would put them in a bathtub with scalding water in it and make them sit there. And one developed this incredible deep psychosis. The other one was pretty normal and just hated her mom. So, you know, this is another reason why I wouldn't rule people out. And I'm not saying people should go down this rabbit hole, but as law enforcement, I don't rule these things out because if the sheriff's never heard this before, this would be something that I would definitely look into.

1:49:03But anybody who's read that book as well, as you both have talked about stalkers and we heard the other individual from, I think it was a BBC or wherever she was, talking about her stalker. People latch on to things in weird, weird ways. And I know, Megan, Maureen, perhaps you have because you're on TV a lot. And I know, Megan, you probably had these where you get emails from people that say some of the weirdest things, especially if you've been in the FBI. They're like, can you help me out with the FBI? Or people write and say, hey, can you introduce? I used to host for Sean Hannity on the radio.

1:49:38I was his fill-in host. And people would write me and say, hey, can you get me in touch with Hannity? I got to tell him these things. Right. That's not realistic. Sure. And so I think when we look at, again, the totality of that show that was on there, it showed where Nancy lives. It talked about Savannah. And then there's this book out. This is kind of a striking coincidence, which does happen sometimes. But a striking coincidence, I think, needs to be looked into. And I would, if I was investigating this, I would be looking at the people who continuously send TMZ these emails about how they've seen Nancy.

1:50:19Right. Oh, yeah. We're going to get to that because there's another one. Because that is the individual who very well could be responsible. Again, if these people are that wacky, like you were talking about, or this other woman who was stalked, a person thought they were in a relationship. So if a person, they could be thinking two different things at the same time and still trying to get some kind of glory out of this. So I would really seriously be looking at that. Hadn't even considered that. Had not even considered that what seems like a fraudster continuously emailing Harvey Levin at TMZ about how, I know who the kidnapper is, and I want a Bitcoin.

1:51:02Half now, half later might actually be the kidnapper looking to insert himself into the discussion, as opposed to the person who wrote the first two$4 million,$6 million demands. Sure. That's an interesting thought. Had not even considered that because the person sounds so farcical. Hold on, put a pin in that because I do want to come back to that. But while we're on the subject of the potential stalker, we showed this a couple weeks ago with all of you. But let's take a look at that Today Show segment that I've now referenced a couple times. Mom, you guys came here in the 70s and you'd been moving all around.

1:51:34What made you want to stay in Tucson and to Aunt Roots? It's so wonderful. Just the air, the quality of life is played back and gentle. Yeah, I like to watch the javelina eat my plants. But the best thing about Tucson is coming home and seeing you guys. Should we raise a glass? Prickly pear margarita? Cheers. Cheers. Love you. Love you. It's eerie now. It's sad. Maureen, you're right, by the way. The pictures of Savannah and her mom are, like, very compelling. They're very compelling. You can see the love radiating off of these two. And I can relate to it, honestly. it's like savannah used to not we've talked about it many times her dad died when she was 16 my dad died when i was 15 my dad died when i was sudden heart attacks yeah yeah like there's something i don't know your mom becomes your mom and your dad your mom when your dad dies young your mom becomes both parents and my mom wasn't the tough guy when we were kids but she had to become one because she had six teenagers when our dad died well there's it's no accident you became an fbi agent.

1:52:43It's definitely no accident you became an FBI agent. It's not, and it's no accident. Savannah and I both went to law school and then we both became reporters. And I don't know, I would suggest for the record, maybe we both had something to prove of our own. There's no question that the loss of a father figure and an actual father at a very young age has a profound impact on a young woman. And Savannah did not want to leave her mom when it was time to go off and get her first reporting job. And the mother insisted that she do it. But I understand that, too. It was like I had it more when I went to college.

1:53:14I felt so bad because I was the third kid, and I did not want to leave my mom alone at all. You know, I knew she'd be alone. And I did. My mom said, you're going. I'm like, get out. This is it. I insist. And I went. And so it's incredibly sad, and it's incredibly awful to think that something as sweet as a segment with her mom could possibly have played a role in the mom's targeting. or like a, you know, a fun childhood story about like a silly game. But that silly game involved the word kidnapping and even a fake kidnapping within the family where they took her. You just never know what's going to set a lunatic down the lane he or she goes.

1:53:57Sweet baby Jesus, can we just rid this world of all the lunatics? They are just outnumbering us at this point. It's crazy. But with regard to the kidnapping thing in her book, you know, it sounds like the older cousin, Terry, was just coming up with some, like, secret plan to get the kids up early in the morning to get them out of the house to beat the traffic. And she just had a, you know, a good imagination. How someone else takes that is a totally different matter. You know, my dad, if he were late coming home as a joke, he would call my mom and, you know, she'd be all upset. And he would just say to her, hey, Mary, don't pay the ransom.

1:54:42I've escaped. And we would all crack up. And she'd say, that's son of a gun, you know. But so there are people that can find a little dark humor in things. And my whole family's first responders. So we all have that kind of dark humor. So I'm not blaming. We're Irish, so we have it. It's so true of the Irish. We try to hide it, but when it comes out, you just see everyone burst into laughter and you know you just got to hit it. We joke about everything. Inappropriate and appropriate. Especially inappropriate. It's a great way to go through life, honestly. That's why you don't get too stressed out.

1:55:22Hopefully, you live a long life because you're not running around with high cortisol all the time. You laugh it away. It's a very effective tool. If we got rid of all the bad people, like Maureen's saying, social media would be reduced to about 10 % of the people that go on there every day. So we wouldn't have social media anymore. This is also true. Some potential lunatics would dive right in. Don't, yeah. And now that leads me back to the fourth letter that Harvey Levin got over at TMZ. So as the audience knows, I know Maureen's rolling her eyes and throwing her head back. I know. We all feel that way.

1:55:53Like, what the F? I'm starting to wonder, does Harvey have an alibi for where he was that night? Just kidding. Some of many of the Twitter followers, like they're so fed up with like the way this investigation is going. They've been like they've they've been like, have they checked under Nancy's bed? Have they have they checked the basement? You know, some basic searching mechanisms that they're pushing. But here's what's what's happened. And Harvey Levin has now gotten four letters from someone not claiming to be the kidnapper, but claiming to know who the kidnapper is. And for the low, low price of one Bitcoin, he will tell Harvey who the kidnapper is.

1:56:34That's how number one started. Then it grew to, well, now the FBI is offering$100 ,000. Bitcoin is only worth$65 ,000. So I'll take$100 ,000 for my information now. and I want it to be 50 grand in Bitcoin before I reveal and the other 50 after I reveal. Different iterations of this. Then, and also he was offended that they raised the award. He was like, I feel attacked. Something like that. I thought that was great. Kristen Salis is like an absolute moron. So Harvey was on TV. You'll be shocked to hear talking about this development. And here is what he said, SOT57. I have something to say to you.

1:57:15And I have already talked to the FBI about this, that if you are not real, you're committing a crime. This is the fourth letter you've sent. And I should tell everybody that in this letter, it says, I know what I saw five days ago south of the border. And I was told to shut up so I know who he is. and that was definitely Nancy with them. This is the second time he has referred to more than one person involved in this. He also says one of the reasons he's worried about coming forward is he has a record. He has a burglary on his record from 10 years ago. If you're worried about getting this money and you really do have this information, send it to us.

1:58:10You're sending us these letters. Send it to us. We will forward it to the FBI. So this is a way for you to get that money if this really is legitimate. OK, so now in the third letter, by the way, that preceded this, Harvey said the man had written, be prepared to go international. Be prepared to go international. And so now. We've got a fourth letter claiming he saw Nancy with, quote, them in Mexico, Jonathan. I mean, to be honest, we haven't fully explored the south of the border possibilities. The sheriff kind of ruled them out the other day. I mean, I don't believe the sheriff. I got to be honest.

1:58:59I don't believe a word that comes out of the sheriff's mouth. But the other day he did say, like, no, we don't even think that's a thing. So, OK, based on what your Democrat policies? Truly like how have you totally ruled out south of the you don't know who fucking did it. Sorry, I'm just I've had it with this guy. Should we be talking? Should we be paying a Bitcoin and a half to see what this guy may know about south of the border? Well, first of all, let me say that, you know, again, hosting radio, you make live reads so easy because they're terrible. But as you can see, Harvey Levin, who I figured he would be able to read a little bit better than that.

1:59:36That was terrible, first of all. It was pretty stilted. Yeah. But listen, this goes back. I found something very striking. I've heard him read that already a couple times. But for whatever reason, it didn't jump out at me that the individual that is supposedly writing these letters, first of all, are they coming from the same email? And if they are, then that is very telling. Secondly, the individual just said that he has a record for burglary. Now, I find that very odd as well. As I told you last time I was on here, 20 percent of the people who commit a homicide are the ones who call in and report the homicide.

2:00:15So they think that's going to keep them out of trouble or for whatever reason. So it could be the case, and I would hope that they were looking into this, that this individual could be the one who was actually going in there to burglarize the place, didn't even think about TMZ or anything. And then these other potentially fraud ransom letters came in and were read by TMZ. And so this individual reached out because he wants to get some money for something. And perhaps it was a robbery gone bad. But the reality is, again, when we're looking at the totality of all these things, this is how you go down as an investigator.

2:00:55You have to look down these rabbit holes. There's so many different cases that were not solved until years later because they just did not take a second to stop and say, what is this? Is there a possibility here? Because statement analysis is one of the most important things that you can go through, I think, as an agent. Unfortunately, a lot of us don't go through that much training. I got the opportunity to. I wasn't a polygrapher, but polygrapher are amazing at it. And statement analysis can tell you a lot. And that last email was was that that he got. That's very odd that it that he mentioned that he has a record for burglary.

2:01:32It's a forensic language. So maybe. Go ahead. Maybe we need to be. I mean, Maureen, that's a very interesting theory that like because Harvey keeps saying, I'm telling you, They're taking the earlier two notes that demanded a$4 million and$6 million ransom. That's what the first note to Harvey said, you know, to the media, the two local Tucson stations and then Harvey too. And then the follow-up note didn't offer proof of life but seemed to be reiterating, like, I want the money. That those are not the real ones and didn't come from a real kidnapper. but possibly these, the weird one, two, three, four emails that followed with this guy who seems very much to want attention and also a Bitcoin and a half, that possibly, possibly it is the real kidnapper trying to get a quick buck off of this and just behaving very recklessly.

2:02:26Well, water seeks its own level. And this seems to be at about the same level as the activity we saw on Nancy's front porch. Yes, it kind of does. With regard to the border, it is 60 miles away. It is a place where you could, well, you could do it anywhere. You could certainly do it in the United States also. But you could pay someone to take care of Nancy while you go through the negotiation process to get your money. you know, but there would, there are great cameras at the border, you know, so if we're looking at that timeframe, the time that this event potentially ended, and then go 60 miles, or we always look at windows, we always start with these windows, you can expand out, or you can hone in, but we're going to start with a window like that.

2:03:20So there, It would definitely give us a whole bunch of leads, and I'm fairly certain they've got to be looking at that anyways, because it is a line of inquiry that is logical, and we always follow these logical paths. But we were told initially that that was, no, no, no, no, that isn't what was happening. I don't think the Bureau would listen to that. I think they would have definitely looked that way. My friend Jim Galliano, he was the League at Mexico, and he talked the other day on Fox all about the type of behavior that you would see at our League at, working with the other people or working with everybody else in the government there at the embassy and in other places and all of our partners.

2:04:05We have really strong partnerships in Mexico, believe it or not, the FBI does. We have a number of FBI agents assigned down there. We have DEA agents assigned down there, all kinds of people, and we work together all the time. So if I have a lead in Mexico, I would send that lead to Mexico. I would speak to my counterpart there. They might refer me to the DEA or Department of State.

2:04:33So But I would say in particular, Mexico, we have a very good working relationship with our counterparts. Unfortunately, you don't know if if he if somebody took her south of the border, if they were smart enough to store her someplace for a day or two until the heat wasn't as intense and then cross the border with her in the trunk or something. And, you know, let's face it, a guy in his 30s with a black mustache and the black goatee or soul patch, not going to look suspicious driving from Arizona into Mexico. That probably happens about a thousand times a day. Unless you forgot to take off the gloves.

2:05:10I don't think you would have drawn a lot of suspicion. Unless you forgot to take off the ski mask and the gloves. Well, I mean, if we got that lucky, my God, and they didn't crack that one, then that really is a pathetic embarrassment. There is another case. I don't know. I just heard it in passing on one of the other networks. A former FBI agent was talking about a case where recently, in recent history, a guy was a wealthy male was abducted and taken into Mexico for a ransom from Tucson. So for this sheriff to say, he said that I think the first or second day, that it is not likely to be something from across the border.

2:05:50I mean, again, that's a political statement, just like I think the other thing about clearing the family is an emotional statement. I think that's the wrong avenue to go down it because immediately he just stopped that force multiplier of people considering the fact that it might have gone over the border or come from over the border. But I will say this. If this individual— How can you say that's not a thing when you don't know who did it? That seems like, oh, it definitely wasn't a Mexican. It wasn't an illegal. You know, it's like— It's a political statement. But you have no idea who it was.

2:06:22Yeah. So how can you possibly say that? It kind of sounds like he was thinking the same thing we were thinking at that time. Yeah, right, exactly. Maybe his focus was elsewhere, so he was pretty sure it wasn't somebody from Mexico. go. I don't believe a word he says. I really don't. I right now I'll believe my own eyes and I'll watch law enforcement and see where they go and let that be our guide. But I don't believe the sheriff's words. I'll say this. If if this was not a kidnapping for ransom and something happened in that house and the individual moved her, whether she was alive or she was already deceased at that point.

2:07:01I would suggest the possibility that she's within probably two hours of her home because this occurred and the removal was close to three o 'clock in the morning, which would give you about two hours of sunlight. And people that aren't that comfortable with moving somebody or that experience, they may be experienced with going into a home when everybody's asleep and robbing a place or burglarizing. But if they're not experienced with moving somebody and there's been a situation where something went awry, then the possibility is they wouldn't want to move them after the sun came up. So because they did this in the dark, they're comfortable in the dark.

2:07:40There's a potential she's within, I would say, two hours driving distance, which could lead over the border, but most likely somewhere within that vicinity. Yeah, definitely could, because they said she's about an hour from the border. Clearly, the police were also considering the possibility that Nancy was killed and left somewhere near her own property. I mean, all those searches in the backyard, looking in the sewer or whatever that was. The pacemaker, Bluetooth they're looking for now. The septic tank, the pacemaker. Exactly. And by the way, Ashley Benfield interviewed somebody who said that that helicopter signal seeker can read sniffer about a thousand feet away.

2:08:25But like that's great. I mean, that's better than 50 or 30 or like a thousand feet. Like a helicopter that's a thousand feet above me on the ground is going to freak me out. It's going to freak out pretty much anybody. I just can't imagine that thing's going to be able to get super low throughout the Tucson area without completely upsetting the local residents for what it's doing up there and how low it's going to come. And is this safe? They're already complaining about the media, about the police. The neighbors have about had it with this whole thing. But look, a woman is missing. All right.

2:08:59We're going to leave it there for today, you guys. But to be continued. And thank you, as always, Maureen and Jonathan. Great to have you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. We'll be back tomorrow with plenty of news. We're actually preparing a deep dive on Epstein for you. There's been so much going on over the past couple of weeks. I mean, it's just like there's been so much irresponsible reporting on this as you sort of sit back and watch them just throw out a name and then that name and then that name. And it's like, OK, they're not all the same. Like, what what exactly did they do? Tell me exactly what this person did and that person did.

2:09:32In any event, we took a shot at trying to figure that out. and we will bring that to you tomorrow along with the latest in this case, of course. We'll see you then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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