Truth About Shooting in Minneapolis, and Shock Anti-ICE Network Details, w/ James O'Keefe, Dave Aronberg, and Andrew Branca | Ep. 1238

24:48Did you hear it right at the beginning? Can we re-rack that? Let's just play that one one more time. Listen right at the top. As soon as you start playing it, you can hear.

25:02We're going to slow that down for you in one second, but it's still unclear how many agents fired their weapons. Amid the scuffle, agents were covering a 9mm handgun and additional loaded magazines. The next video we're going to show you is very graphic. We did not blur it because it's already hard to see who is making what movement. This is the same video obtained by DropSite News, but an account on X called AFStreamWatch took that video and stabilized it so it does not move around so much. They also slowed it down. All right, I'm going to show this video. In it, you see more clearly that the agent wearing a gray coat has his hands near Preddy's backside, near his belt area.

25:41It appears that he grabbed something, likely the gun, but another agent blocks the camera shot at that exact moment so he can't say for sure. An agent screams he's got a gun or gun. The agent in green goes for his own holster and draws his own sidearm. The agent in the gray coat turns around and runs from the scene with Preddy's gun. The agent in green, who's drawn his own gun, moves behind Preddy, who's now trying to get up on his knees. It's then you hear the first gunshot. And now here is a slowdown soundbite of the agent screaming about a gun. Listen.

26:24You heard it, right? First they yelled, gun, gun. Then you hear a gunshot. Quite clearly, we'll play it again. quite clearly the warning that the man they were trying to arrest and they were wrestling with had a gun came before anybody pulled their gun, much less fired it. Here it is.

26:54God, the whistling is so annoying. Truly like think think of you had to do your job. I sit at this desk, you know, I do interviews for a living and deliver news. I don't think I could function like that. I really don't. Like, wasn't that so annoying? And I apologize to my SiriusXM audience, which is trying to drive their cars. This is like piercing through their car radios right now. We're done with that. But imagine if it's all around you in person and you're trying to affect an arrest. All right. So we've made clear, it's not clear to us where the first gunshot actually came from. A guy named Rob Doerr, who's a lawyer for the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus, telling the New York Post that he believes Preddy's gun went off after the agent grabbed it, leading the other agent to open fire.

27:42Here's a photo of the agent with the gun, Preddy's gun, after leaving the fight. So it looks like he retrieved Preddy's gun and left the fight. And this is the video. The agent is involved in the tussle. He can then be seen running away from the huddle with a gun in his hand. He briefly looks back when the gunfire rings out. Some have determined that this could have been an accidental discharge with Preddy's weapon. There are reports of this happening with this particular weapon multiple times that apparently it's known to do this kind of thing, which is not great, not great in a firearm. Don't know if that's what happened here, but it's one of the possibilities that they're going to look into.

28:23President Trump did not initially weigh in on what happened, but he told the Wall Street Journal last night, quote, I don't like any shooting. I don't like it. But I don't like it when somebody goes into a protest and he's got a very powerful, fully loaded gun with two magazines loaded up with bullets. Also, that doesn't play good either, said the president. Fair take. Measured, actually. Unlike Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, who immediately went for the cameras, claiming ICE is not law enforcement, and I guess Border Patrol too, and Preddy was shot just trying to buy a donut. This federal occupation of Minnesota long ago stopped being a matter of immigration enforcement.

29:02It's a campaign of organized brutality against the people of our state. And today that campaign claimed another life. Donald Trump, I call on you once again, remove this force from Minnesota. They are sowing chaos and violence. We've seen deadly violence from federal agents again and again and again. And I call on all Americans to see the decency that this state is exhibiting and the horrific, cruelty, unprofessional, absolute abomination that is passing for what these ICE agents are doing on our streets. and quit referring to these people as law enforcement. They are not law enforcement. You ask us for peace and we give it and we get shot in the face on the streets coming out of a donut shop.

29:51I mean, I'm sorry, but that is so irresponsible. I know there's loose talk. Listen to podcasting. You're going to hear that. You're going to listen to cable news pundits. You're going to hear that. He's the sitting governor of the state. He has an obligation to the citizenry to be more careful with his words. He truly does. And don't even get me started on Barack Obama and Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris, who I swear to God, if you wanted to get someone killed in Minneapolis, you wouldn't do anything differently from what they are doing. The words that they have chosen are extremely insurrection-y, Bill Clinton looking at you in particular.

30:31But this is, it's exploitation. There is no, trust me, there's no actual caring. They don't care. They're not actually upset at all about what happened to Alex Pretty there. They see no good crisis is wasted. Use every good crisis as an opportunity. That was Rahm Emanuel's words to Obama. They see an opportunity. They see an opportunity to finally make Democrats popular again, which they haven't been for over two years. They see an opportunity to make the Republicans look like the bad guys. and they know if they just keep amping up the things on the street corners of Minneapolis, there'll be another one.

31:09And they can just come out there and look forlorn, just so sad and exasperated. You saw how quickly they moved on from the little five-year-old boy with the sweet little dog hat. Oh, like they moved on real quick once it became very clear that the dad wasn't an asylum seeker. He was just a regular old illegal with a deportation order, removal order. And he ran, that's why he ran. leaving his five-year-old alone. And that's why his wife would not open the door for ICE authorities trying to give her her son. So the father had no choice once they caught him. Do you want us to give your son to somebody like your wife inside?

31:45Or do you want to take him? And he said, I'll take him. That's what happened. Oh, they moved on right quick from that little boy, didn't they? Because their narrative, it's like darts at a board. And I bet they view Alex Preeti, if you want to be pretty, whatever, honest about it, as a sacrificial lamb. as like a soldier who did his duty. Like, he was martyred, basically, for the cause of proving how terrible Trump is. It's not even necessarily about immigration. It's proving how terrible Trump is so that Democrats can be restored to power. And the best way they want to be restored to power is by part one, which was opening the border and letting somewhere between 10 and 20 million illegals come into the country.

32:26Part two, having zero voter ID requirements at the ballot box on voting day so they can show up and they can vote and they can keep Democrats in office. I'm sorry, but this, like, Governor Walz is out of control. So is his lieutenant governor. She's a sicko, that Peggy Flanagan. Something's really wrong with her. Kamala, awful. The mayor, terrible. This one's still, Governor Walz, I'm about to play with you, where he compared ICE to Nazis. Great, that's our favorite thing. But for good measure, he brought in Anne Frank. We have got children in Minnesota hiding in their houses, afraid to go outside.

33:09Many of us grew up reading that story of Anne Frank. Somebody's going to write that children's story about Minnesota. And there's one person who can end this now. I just want to tell you what the polling is to which I'm referring. Here's just one via Axios. Internal GOP polling, which alarmed some Trump insiders, was completed at the end of December, days before Renee Good was killed in Minneapolis. 60 percent of independent voters and 58 percent of undecided voters said Trump was too focused on deporting illegals. Again, this is a poll by Trump's team. 33 percent said Trump was primarily deporting law abiding people as opposed to criminals.

33:54So one third of the populace believes he's just going after law abiding people as opposed to criminals. I mean, that's shocking. New York Times. Do you think this is their poll? Do you think the tactics used by immigration customs enforcement have gone too far, not gone far enough or been about right? Too far, 61 percent overall, 61 percent. Only 26 % say it's about right. 11 % say not far enough. Democrats, 94 % against the president. Independents, 71 % against the president. Even Republicans, 19 % against the president saying things have gone too far. That's how you get to 61 % saying it's gone too far.

34:41I have to say, to be perfectly honest, I'm in the 11%. I just am. I'm like, I don't think they've gone far enough. Like we've made very little progress in getting these illegals out of the United States. We've tried, they've tried so hard. God bless Tom Holman, he's a hero. But the numbers aren't great. We have so many more to get out. And like, I don't know. I think maybe what we needed to do right from the get-go was send in the way he did in LA, the National Guard to protect these ICE agents so they could get in and get out faster without this kind of thing happening. There would have been a legal challenge and it probably would have been sustained if the National Guard's presence there hadn't been proven totally necessary.

35:23But we're there now. We're there now. I mean, he can send in the National Guard to protect ICE without invoking the insurrection. Will he do it? I don't know. I mean, that's what happened in L.A. That's what he's doing in Chicago or trying. ICE right now, I'm sorry, National Guard right now has been deployed by Governor Walz. And we don't know what, why, what exactly are they doing? We reported on an AM update today. They're passing out coffee and donuts to people wearing different like reflective vests to try to make themselves look different from border enforcement. But like we cannot have a situation where the National Guard's on one side and the Border Protection and the ICE guys are on another side.

36:05That's a hard no. I don't know what Governor Walz has up his sleeve on this, but he needs to be watched carefully. This morning there was some progress. Trump sending out a tweet. This is what it reads.

36:24Hold on a second. That's Kristi Noem's. I don't want that. I want this one. Okay. Donald Trump. I'm sending Tom Homan to Minnesota tonight. Wait, this was last night. I'm sending Tom Homan to Minnesota tonight. He's not been involved in that area, but knows and likes many of the people there. Tom is tough, but fair and will report directly to me. Separately, a major investigation is going on with respect to the massive$20 billion plus welfare fraud. And he goes on from there about Ilhan Omar and others. And then this morning, Trump announced the following. Governor Tim Walz called me with the request to work together with respect to Minnesota.

36:59I mean, Trump had been asking him to do this for weeks. It was a very good call, and we actually seem to be on a similar wavelength. I told Governor Walz that I would have Tom Homan call him, and that what we are looking for are any and all criminals that they have in their possession. The governor very respectfully understood that, and I will be speaking to him in the near future. He was happy that Tom Homan was going to Minnesota, and so am I. We've had such tremendous success in Washington, D.C., Memphis, Tennessee, and New Orleans, Louisiana, and virtually every other place that we have touched, and even in Minnesota, crime is way down.

37:29But both Governor Walz and I want to make it better. President Donald J. Trump. so we're looking for any and all criminals that they have in their possession okay that's what we've been asking for for quite some time the reason we don't get them is because it is a sanctuary state not officially but by default and minneapolis is a sanctuary city so they don't cooperate in handing over those criminals to the feds even if there's an ice detainer on them so is he is waltz ready to sacrifice the sanctuary state city policies great that actually would be a W. We'll see. I think we all know Governor Walz is very, very, very interested in distracting from his massive fraud scandal.

38:14And he has no real interest in stopping the bedlam that's on the streets of Minneapolis right now. One of the people who was right in the middle of it was our friend James O 'Keefe. He's the founder of Project Veritas and is now the CEO of O 'Keefe media group, cleverly referred to as OMG. Before the cameras, before the ceremony, before history is made, every detail is chosen. From Amazon MGM Studios comes Melania. This new film takes you inside the 20 days leading up to the 2025 presidential inauguration through the eyes of the first lady herself, where fashion is not just style, it's strategy.

38:54Witness the image defining decisions made behind closed doors, a celebration of duty and glamour. Melania, only in theaters starting January 30th. James, welcome. You were in the thick of all this over the weekend. Tell us about your experience. Hey, Megan. Yeah, I was actually in Minnesota for a different reason on Friday and Saturday morning, and I was in undercover journalism, doing some undercover journalism. And I was there when the shots were fired. Just absolute coincidence. So I walked over to the location in what appeared to be like the suburbs of Minnesota, a relatively nice neighborhood.

39:30People need to understand that what's so shocking to me is that this is not like a bad neighborhood. This is just a suburban place. And this is before the autonomous zone was formed. I don't know, about 11, 12 a.m. I was walking. We parked our vehicle, got out of our vehicle. We did have undercover people in the mob. But what was striking to me is right when I parked my vehicle, as soon as I got out, it's negative 12 degrees. So every part of your skin is completely covered. They can't identify you. Immediately, five women who are white began interrogating me and asking me who I am, what my identity is.

40:02I've never experienced anything quite like this. I actually told them I was press and they, they proceed. It was almost like they were going to do a citizen's arrest on me unless I identified myself, showed them my ID. So I told them, you know, I'm - James, forgive me. You guys have given us a couple of videos exclusive to you. People can check them out at your website. So we'll play a couple of them as you tell the story. And there is one of the moment I think you're referring to where they're demanding you show your press badge in SOT 9A. Here it is.

40:38Here's my press badge.

40:43These guys are not press. I looked up OK Media. It's from Portugal. They're not from Portugal. and none of their work is political at all

40:56so keep going james so i'll tell the story about a sequence but what happened there is uh they started yelling shame shame shame and they they i mean again this is not yet even an autonomous zone i'm somewhere a mile away from the shooting they followed us to our car they started throwing things at us uh now remember negative 12 degrees a bottle of water will freeze in like 20, 30 seconds. And it's a weapon. And they started throwing objects at me and my security guard. In fact, they actually padded my security guard down. They are the authority. I've never experienced anything like this. I mean, if you have a gun, what are you gonna do, fire it at them?

41:34I mean, that's not gonna work. So they confiscated the weapon off of my Marine security detail, followed us to our - Wait, a gun? Well, he left his gun in the car, but he had like a knife or something on him and they confiscated, they patted him down like they're the police. Now the police in Minnesota have left. The police have left this area completely. So you're completely on your own. And I'm shaking. Megan, you had me on to talk about my film, Line in the Sand. I've ambushed the cartel. They run away from me. They don't like the cameras. These people will kill you. I've never quite experienced, like, I guess I would call it communism up close.

42:14I've never experienced anything like this. So we go to the car and they start throwing projectiles at us, rocks, ice bottles, what appeared to be a knife. I'm still going through all the footage. I'm wearing a bulletproof vest. You saw it in the video. It was terrifying. And we have a couple of clips we've given you, but I've never, I'm honestly a little bit shaken. I wouldn't say I'm scared, but I'm shaken. And I guess we'll unpack all this. But what struck me is how organized these people are. Every car. Hold on. Hold on. Hold the thought on the organization because I do want to get into that.

42:50Let me show the audience a little bit of what you were subjected to. Let's let's hear 10A and 10B together.

43:06The crowd's following James. Now, now you can see the projectile hit James in the back. James! James! James! James! James! James! James! They're everywhere. Shut the fucking doors. Shut the door. Shut the fucking doors. Go, go, go, go. We're pressed. We're pressed. We're pressed. You know what the First Amendment is? First Amendment. Yes or no? They threw a frozen... Ice brick. ...ice brick at the car. Take off your vest. I'm carrying quickly. yeah it's um is you know it's pretty terrifying and the reason why uh is because there's no one there to help like there's no police the police have stood down um i mean you know and you tell them they're oppressed we have more footage they'll kill you they don't care anybody who's not them is their enemy if you are a journalist you're a fed and i I was trying to reason with them, Megan.

44:06I was trying to talk to them rationally. I'm not here. I'm not taking a position for or against ICE. I'm here. I'm a reporter. They said they'll kill me. So that was kind of perhaps a glimpse into the future, I suppose, of what we're up against. There's more to the story here. I can tell you what happened next. We try to go back to our hotel, Megan. We're staying downtown. And the person at the hotel signals to one of them. And we then realized that we're in danger. We have to leave our hotel. So we go to a second hotel and we got someone. What? What do you mean he signaled? He told them that you were staying there?

44:43Yeah. Yeah. These people have spotters everywhere. They have spotters in every street corner. They have people working at the hotels. They somehow got our license plate, rental car. my driver got a text message a death threat from a burner number on his phone Yeah, you posted it I did post that, the death threat, yes It reads, we know you're in Minneapolis you're with O 'Keefe and his crew of Nazis you're in a white Ford license plate and then you blocked it out from Florida you have one hour to leave or you're dead That was to your driver? Yeah, that was not to my cell phone that was to the driver of the vehicle who rented the car.

45:26We don't know. I've had the FBI reach out to me. I think the Attorney General of the United States actually DM'd me. Bondi DM'd me this morning. We're trying to figure out if we can trace it, but that was not to my cell phone. That was to the driver of the car, which I speculate. They ran the tags and found out who rented the vehicle. And they followed us to the hotel. And usually I wrote in my tweet, or my post, that usually I'm able to lose a tail. Like they give up. You just drive down the freeway. We go to a second hotel in a town called Wysata, Minnesota, which is kind of a rich suburban town on the lake where they do ice fishing.

46:05And a guy walks in black block, looks like Antifa. He just stares at me as I'm checking into the hotel. And then I then realized I can't actually lose these people. I have to like leave the state of Minnesota. Do we drive to Chicago? Like, what are we going to do? And my team was honestly pretty, scared. And that's when I went to the parking garage and posted a video of me reading the death threat as we then proceed to go to our third location and try to just extract my team out of there because they feel like their lives are in danger. Yeah. And your security team gets to the point where they realize they cannot keep you safe.

46:44And it's not just you. It's not just you, James. There was an extraordinary piece of tape out of Minneapolis. This is posted on the New York Post, but we found it on X originally, where anti-ice protesters violently swarmed a Minneapolis hotel. They're big on swarming the hotels where they think press like you or ICE or Border Patrol are staying. They believe federal officers were staying there. They began hurling items, quoting here from the New York Post, at people inside, smashing in windows, graffitiing F-U-C-K ice across the building's facade on Sunday. The large mob descended on the home two suites by Hilton Hotel last Sunday.

47:25They shoved and hurled objects at a Minneapolis Police Department officer and others just inside the hotel's lobby and attempted to push their way in. We're showing some video of it now, forcing those inside to use two large vending machines to physically block the rowdy demonstrators. We're all locals. It's all locals, one man shouted as he tried to ward off the protesters. And then we see this piece of tape with a federal agent who's been guarding the hotel come out and scream, not scream, but like yell at the people standing there. Where is the local PD? Let's listen to it. Stop 12. Is everyone pressed?

48:09We're all members of the press. We're all pressed here. Okay. This officer appears to be bleeding from the count. Oh my gosh. Are you okay? I'm fine. I'm fine. Where's the local PD? That's my question for the press. Where's the local PD? what's your message to the local pd sir no okay well the mayor very chaotic sir while you're getting messages what was your message to the protesters that want you out me this guy is bloodied uh from the nose and the mouth james and asking you know basically where the hell is the backup? This is a federal agent. Yeah, I mean, there's no incentive. The incentives are not aligned.

49:02You can't hold them accountable. You can't defend yourself. You can't shoot back. You can't fight back. You can use mace or something or spray, but if you did that as you're being attacked, they'll use force against you. They'll kill you. And so the only thing that - The numbers are just too great. The only thing that we could do, and I was, you know, I'm not a very fearful person, but I recognize when I'm in danger, there's a difference between fear and danger. The only thing you can do is just walk away and not engage them. That's what I had to do in that moment as they're throwing projectiles.

49:33Just walk. Don't pass go. Do not collect$200. Not look back at them, actually, and just get the hell out of there. But you realize there's nowhere for you to retreat to. And my assumption is these police officers aren't going to do anything because they don't want to end up like Derek Chauvin. They don't want to be in prison for the rest of their lives or in front of a jury that'll convict them. So I think you have to experience this, Megan. You're a reporter. I'm on the front lines every week. I think you have to experience this for yourself to fully understand what you're dealing with. I think this is a continuation of 2020.

50:00We paused it. Now we're playing it and it's moving, progressing into the future. It's crazy. We're going to pause and then come back with you, James. But it's very important to keep this in mind because this is what James got as a reporter. Imagine what the actual Border Patrol and ICE officers are getting daily before they walk into a confrontation with a guy like Alex Preddy. More with James when we come back and then our legal panel. A new year means new financial goals, like making sure your savings are secure and diversified. Will this be the year you decide to talk to someone from Birch Gold Group?

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51:24Back with me now, James O 'Keefe, CEO of O 'Keefe Media Group. And I know one of the pieces of your reporting, James, and it matches the reporting of Cam Higby, who's been on the ground there, and Azra Nomani, who's been posting for Fox, that there are these like very well attended, for lack of a better word, signal chats where immense planning takes place. And they're very well coordinated. And it's the network by which they, I mean, this is the real signal gate. Pete Hegseth got in trouble for using signal for comms with some of his top emissaries. This is like planned lawlessness on the streets of Minneapolis via signal.

52:05Yeah, they're very, as I said to you when I got on your show and I've got the Cam Higby report, he was on the ground with me. He's done unbelievable, exceptional reporting. He got access to these signal chats moments ago as I was on the show with you. It shows protesters organizing, and I am shocked and amazed at how organized they are. I've never seen anything like this. Every vehicle downtown, they're able to track, run the plates, confirm who they are, get their ID, like they did in my case. They ran my license plate. We're trying to figure out how they're able to do that, where they have someone on the inside of a rental car company, et cetera, and communicate with each other about it.

52:47And when I got out of my vehicle, this is like 1130 in the morning just after the shooting and before the autonomous zone. Within seconds, there were five of them standing outside of a relatively inconspicuous vehicle interrogating me, asking to see my identification. So I got to give them credit, Megan. I've never seen anything in my life I don't think any of us have ever seen a group of people more organized and I warn people because people are tempted to say well this is funded and honestly Megan what I think and what I believe to be true is there isn't some one boogeyman funding all of this it's a loose network of NGOs some of which indirectly get funds from our government but they people actually really believe in their cause and it's a cause that it appears to me that they're willing to live and die for which is, I think, more terrifying than one guy funding them in a transactional way.

53:45You mentioned just how violent they were and how you felt definitely under threat and potentially like your life was in danger. That tracks with what we've been seeing. This is just one, but we could spend all day playing them. This is an Antifa member whose name is Kyle Wagner, who's making his threats explicit. Again, this is like a day ending and why there are so many, these on the internet, but this one came to our attention and we're going to show you why. SOT 22. My name is Kyle. I'm Antifa. And there's so much rage in me that I've had to record this like 15 times trying to get the message out.

54:19It's time to suit up, show up, ready to go. Okay. No, not talking about peaceful protests anymore. We're not talking about having polite conversations anymore. I am talking specifically to my fucking followers. This is everything I have fucking talked about and this is exactly what I said was going to happen. This is exactly what I said was going to fucking come when we didn't fucking go and march on fucking Whipple with guns. Sorry, but welcome to America 2026 where Second Amendment is the only thing that's going to keep you fucking protected from literal fucking Nazi gunmen that are killing innocent people in the street with impunity.

54:59Get your fucking guns and stop these fucking people. Thank you. Yeah. So Kyle doesn't always look like such a tough guy. We pulled his social media. He's got an Instagram account with over 100 ,000 followers. And this is how Kyle normally appears on it. Yeah. He's, I guess, transvestite. He appears to be wearing women's garb, a women's wig. I can't even, like, yeah, like rainbow, long-haired. There's obviously something deeply wrong with Kyle. I think we can all agree on that. Um, yeah, there's, he's with, in like women's high boots with high heels showing off his rear end. Kyle, uh, to be honest, these, these photos are, are more terrifying than your, I'm a tough guy video was like, you want to prove me that you're, there's something wrong with you.

55:51You just show me those pictures. You didn't have to go through all the theatrics of trying to sound so tough and you're going to get your guns in the second amendment. Welcome to the second amendment loving, by the way. Yeah, it's great to have you here. Go ahead, James. Well, irrationality can be the most dangerous thing. And I witnessed, you know, it's like witnessing communism where there's no rule of law. There's no logic. It's dangerous. And those are the types of people that some say killed Charlie Kirk. So it's dangerous. I mean, as I sit here, Megan, with you, I'm getting death threats constantly.

56:20And I intend to name every single one of these people. You do? I do. I mean, I'm working on it right now, doing the open source intelligence, trying to name. The DMs are coming in, you know, threatening my life. Can I ask you why? Like, I have to say, I never name my threateners. I just never do it. I just, like, they want infamy. Most of them just want attention. They don't actually want to kill you. It's a fair point, but I think sunlight is the best disinfectant, and I think the only thing that these people actually fear is exposure itself. They certainly don't fear accountability. There's no, no one's been arrested.

56:53And the reason— No one, right? Even the three church disturbers who went into the city's church last Sunday, not yesterday, but last Sunday, are already back out. Like nobody was held without bond. I want to talk to you about this. I have only a few words to say about it, but every one of your audience members is all thinking the exact same thing is why isn't anybody arrested? And I think the reason why is because there's no money in holding people accountable. There's no money in it. There's a lot of money in corruption. There's a lot of money in fraud. and I've said this publicly and I mean I am dead serious and I will do this.

57:29If the prosecutors do not arrest the people, then I'm going to hold the prosecutors accountable. I'm going to do investigative journalism. You're talking about Minnesota officials. I'm talking about federally, state, everything. The feds are bending over backwards right now to arrest those people who went into that church. They're being stymied at every level. That's in the news today. They went into the magistrate judge. He said no for everybody but three. Then they tried. Now we know. Harmeet was on the show on Friday. They tried to go to the chief district judge to overrule that guy. He said, no, just go to a grand jury and get get an indictment the old fashioned way.

58:04One, we are told, is beginning tomorrow, Tuesday. They said, no, we want this before Sunday. So no more masses or services are disrupted. So they tried to go up to the Eighth Circuit and the Eighth Circuit three judge panel, two of whom are Trump appointees, said, no, there's nothing so extraordinary happening that you require this quick relief. They weren't real persuaded by the fact that they had to have all these arrests made before Sunday. But just to have the DOJ do all of that, James, is extraordinary. So they are trying. It's just a lot harder, especially at the federal level, to bring charges.

58:37And they don't have enough prosecutors and good lawyers at the DOJ probably that can be trusted. But this is a different level now. And I've had the attorney general and I've had them reach out to me this morning trying to get the identity of the people. And I hope they mean well. But generally speaking, no one's been arrested. Nobody. I mean, I've been arrested, Megan, as you know. The FBI's raided me. Yes. The FBI raided my news. Harmeet was your lawyer. So they didn't have any trouble arresting. Well, that's why it's so crazy. What do you make of that, James? Because it's like James O 'Keefe has a conversation with someone who has stolen Ashley Biden's diary about possibly paying her for it and possibly printing it.

59:20But James O 'Keefe decides, I'm not going to do that. And then James O 'Keefe gets the FBI at his home at five in the morning, along with several employees who get the same treatment as the FBI raids you and conveniently just, I mean, it's a miracle. I don't know how they did it, but somehow the New York Times figured out it was going to happen and published two minutes later. But Don Don Lemon physically goes into a church terrorizing all of these civilians just trying to observe a woman so scared. We just read the police affidavit on her running out of the church. She she broke her arm. Now they're talking about the terror that the children were feeling.

1:00:00And neither Don nor several of the others who weren't the ringleaders can can get indicted, can get an arrest warrant issued against them. For some reason, these federal judges out in Minnesota want to protect them. No one wanted to protect you other than Harmeet. I understand the dynamics, Megan, and it's a serious problem. It's gotten to the point where the lack of arrests is the story. And I actually think it's not just, you know, Megan, what you're talking about in Minnesota. I think it's something more. I think that the people in charge have to have the will and the courage to hold them accountable.

1:00:40Accountability, like leadership, is a liability. Let me give you a more specific example. I get sued once a month, Megan, once a month for reporting what people say, for exercising my First Amendment rights. If I just talk and not do investigative journalism, I probably wouldn't get sued. But I get sued because I hold people accountable. And therefore, it becomes a liability for me. In other words, it's very expensive. I have to raise millions of dollars. It's hard. So I don't think it's just that there's these obstacles. I think that the people in charge, the people in Washington, have to have the balls and the will to expose themselves to liability and to threats.

1:01:23And they have to say, I don't care. I'm going to do it anyway. And that's where we are right now. And if there are threats against them and if they are being bribed, I will I will expose that. I will I will show that to you. Can you get more specific? Because like what Harmeet has done in the church protest, I don't I'm not I'm not talking about Harmeet specifically. I'm talking about you're going beyond. I'm talking about other reporting. As you know, I have undercover people in Washington and elsewhere and people tell me things and people inside the FBI tell me things. and they say the reasons why we're not arresting people.

1:02:00And what I'm saying is that I think it might be time for me to bring that to the American people. Because as a reporter, Megan, you know, you have to balance the relationships you have with these people. You probably have a relationship with Harmeet. I don't know, but I'm assuming you do. Your relationships with the rapport you build with your sources. And also, guys, I'm going to have to put you on blast. It's time to show the world the way it is. And I'm just saying that I think - I will say for the record, It's been very interesting to me because I have more friends in this administration than I've ever had in an administration.

1:02:30And some understand that I do have a day job. And like if they do something that's controversial, I'm going to report on it and they may not like it. And they take it like big boys and girls. And some come crying like little babies. Honestly, some are so pathetic in their like, I thought we were friends. Right. Okay. You join the government. You're fair game. If you want to end the friendship because I've reported on the controversy surrounding you, that's up to you. But, yeah, there's a vast disparity, I would say, between how some respond and how others do. There's definitely a tension there.

1:03:03There's definitely a tension there. But I think we reached a boiling point, and I think the public has a right to know at this point. And, by the way, there's some – I'm going to just be clear to your audience. I have relationships with some of these people. There are some really good people in government. There are some good people trying to do the right thing. But it's the nature of institutions and bureaucracies. It's very hard to lead when you're in a bureaucracy. Individuals like Nick Shirley, he's an individual. He can take enormous risks. I think it's challenging for a bureaucracy to take those risks.

1:03:32But stay tuned. Yeah, we will. James O 'Keefe, thank you. It's great to see you, my friend. Thank you. All right, we'll see you soon. We're going to bring in our legal panel in a minute. But I just want to give you guys an update on what happened with that, the push. Now we've seen the affidavit in support of arresting more people inside of that church. Not the people, but the protesters. It's stunning. Okay, it's stunning. It's not going well for the government right now. But again, this grand jury starts tomorrow, we're told. And so almost certainly they're going to go before that grand jury and try to get these charges.

1:04:09You know, will they succeed with a Minneapolis? It's still Minneapolis grand jurors. They tend to do a little better in federal court, so we'll see. But there's absolutely no guarantee. Look what happened in Washington, D.C. They wouldn't indict that guy. It was on tape him throwing that subway and hitting the cop with it. They didn't care. So it's possible that politics could overrule justice in front of this grand jury. But I just want to tell you what has come out. All right. First, we had magistrate judge Douglas Mikko saying prosecutors failed to present evidence to justify these arrests that it was seeking.

1:04:44Among those rejected were the warrants for Don Lemon, one of his producers, and some others. Mikko did authorize arrest warrants for three people who were described as the leaders, and those people were arrested last week, and we brought that to you. You remember them, Nakima, I think it was Chantel, and that William Kelly. They were all arrested. But there were several others that they tried to get and didn't. And the Trump administration then went up above Mikko's head to the chief district judge, Patrick Schiltz. Schiltz, got to be careful with that name, declined to take immediate action. He said it's unprecedented for you to like run to me.

1:05:24Just go to a grand jury or improve your warrant that the magistrate didn't find persuasive. Like, why are you running above his head? Was that judge's reaction? then the DOJ went to the Eighth Circuit asking that court to issue a writ of mandamus to force Schiltz, Schiltz, to grant the government's request. On Friday, the three judge panels said, no, we're not doing that, as I told you. One Obama appointee, two Trump appointees. Basically, everybody just said, there's no rush. You can present this case to a grand jury and seek an indictment, or you can improve your affidavit and submit it back to that magistrate judge.

1:06:03But the actual facts that were in the underlying affidavit about what happened inside of that courthouse, sorry, church house, were stunning. It's much worse than we realized, and we knew it was bad. Well, listen to this. This is an affidavit from Timothy Gerber, special agent with the Department of Homeland Security, ICE, and Homeland Security Investigations. This is when you try to go get, you drop a criminal complaint, it has to be supported by something. And they support it with the affidavit of a federal law enforcement officer saying, this is what I've gathered. This is why you should issue a criminal warrant.

1:06:39Worked for those three, but not the others. Affidavit submitted for purposes of establishing probable cause, blah, blah, blah. Okay, so it was those three plus five redacted names and other currently unknown persons for conspiracy against rights. that's the Klan Act and the FACE Act. Those are the two laws. We discussed them last week. He says they disrupted their religious services and intimidated, harassed, oppressed, and terrorized the parishioners, including young children. They caused the service to be cut short. They forced the parishioners to flee the church outside of a side door, out of a side door, resulting in one female victim falling and suffering an injury.

1:07:16They later reveal she broke her arm. Some of the protesters also physically obstructed some parishioners as they attempted to leave the church and the adjacent parking areas. Back to victim two, she broke her arm. She slipped and broke it when she came out the door and was running. Victim two advised the police that they were terrorized. Our children were weeping. College students and young women were sobbing. It was impactful and it will take time to work through. Victims four and five were interviewed. They were members of City Church for at least four years. They noticed that the church was unusually full and a group of unfamiliar individuals seated together toward the rear of the church.

1:07:57Approximately 50 members of the congregation were stuck toward the front of the church after the protest began. Victim 4 informed the agents that the aisles, which are already narrow to begin with, got more so as the agitators who occupied the center of the sanctuary made it nearly impossible for the parishioners to get out and leave. All this is important. Remember, we talked with Dave about physical obstruction under the FACE Act and what it means. If you physically obstruct a woman's walk into the abortion clinic, you're going to get charged under the FACE Act. If you physically obstruct someone's ability to leave their place of worship, which you're terrorizing, you can get charged under the FACE Act.

1:08:36So this is what he's trying to establish here. Made it nearly impossible for parishioners to get out and leave. Victim 5 later expressed fear that the agitators may have guns underneath their jackets. Don't forget threats or intimidation. That's what you also need to show under threats, intimidation, physical obstruction, um, at a place of worship. So all of these are going into face act violations and they also will play under the Klan act too. Um, let's see that they were shouting and listen to this. They feared that the agitators may have guns underneath their jackets. When the agitators began shouting, all the parishioners could hear was shoot.

1:09:14We've talked about this. Hands up. Don't shoot. what makes them think that anybody who wasn't an adult in 2015 when Ferguson happened would know what that reference is. And not everybody, even who did know the reference, could hear the whole thing because it was loud in there with that ridiculous Nakima yelling at the pastor. And then eventually he yelled shame back at her. Victim four informed the agents members of their parish attempted to retrieve their children from the childcare area located downstairs. You know how we put the littles downstairs sometimes. And the agitators were blocking the staircase, the parents were unable to get to their children.

1:09:48Victim four recalled one agitator was threatening, aggressive, and intimidating toward the parishioners. Additionally, this agitator was screaming and getting at people's faces to include women and young children. This agitator continued to scream in the faces of the young children while they were crying. It's got to be William Kelly. We've seen that. Victim six was joined by his wife, victim two, and their other children. He recalled an African-American woman yelling, excuse me, Pastor, excuse me, do you know you're harboring ICE agent? Victim one. So that one pastor, I assume, who they thought was ICE.

1:10:20Let's see. Recall people shouting, running, children crying, people singing and praying. Victim six recalled Kelly screaming Nazi in people's faces in addition to confronting children saying, do you know your parents are Nazis? They're going to burn in hell. Threatening, you think? And they've got it all here. Victim six later stated protesters followed and surrounded them in their car as they were trying to leave, but would not let them leave. They were afraid. Victim six informed agents that their face is on the website. They're afraid people will try and come to their house at night. Victim six recalled his child, stating to him, Daddy, I thought you were going to die.

1:11:02Victim six ended the interview and acknowledged that his children are traumatized. That's probable cause, folks, and it's not going to stop at the three who were arrested, at least not if this DOJ keeps its foot on that pedal. And if we have activist judges or grand jurors who don't allow it, then we're going to have to see what happens next because they can't get away with this. A woman's got a broken bone. You've got children who are traumatized. You've got adults who are traumatized. You've got a physical taking over of a place of worship, not allowing people to leave, separating people from their children who are downstairs in the sanctuary, this is worth fighting over.

1:11:39It's worth going to the chief judge and then going to the eighth circuit and then going to the grand jury and doing everything within your power to make sure everyone involved is brought to justice. Now, up next, a legal debate with the guy when it comes to guns and shooting. We had Andrew Branca on this podcast many times during the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, and he understands the law around this like nobody. He's very strong. And we brought back Dave Ehrenberg, who does have a different opinion on the latest shooting, and we're going to have a fair and balanced debate next. These are not the meat sticks you grew up with.

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1:15:17There are so many legal angles to break down on what's going on in Minnesota. And most importantly, were the federal officers justified in using deadly force Saturday against Alex Preddy? Here to debate the issue is Andrew Branca, an attorney who is a self-defense law expert, as well as the host of the Andrew Branca Show. And our pal Dave Ehrenberg, who's an MK true crime host, is also with us today. He's a lawyer, former Palm Beach County state's attorney as well. Guys, welcome back to the show. So, and I'll kick it off with this, Andrew. Real clear politics saying that in their 25 years, you know, as an entity, they have never seen an example where the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Post and the Washington Post all agreed in their top editorial, which was to call on ICE to settle down and to potentially deescalate in Minnesota.

1:16:13I don't happen to agree with that. I know, according to the polls, I'm in the minority, but it is events like what happened with Alex Preddy that have led to that. And so your position that this was what? I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth that it was a valid shooting, that it was a quote, good shooting. How would you put it? Yeah, it was a legally justified use of defensive force. I mean, whether I should deescalate, that's a political question, right? That's not my area of expertise. But whether this particular shooting was justified or not, the legal question is, did the officers who fired the shot have a reasonable perception that Freddie was presenting as an imminent unlawful threat of deadly force harm?

1:16:50And a prosecutor would have to disprove that beyond any reasonable doubt. And what facts do we have here? We have the ICE officers observing Freddie committing a violent felony on another ICE officer. He's non-compliant with arrest. What specifically? Well, when he lays hands on the first ICE officer, that's a federal felony. That's good for eight years in federal prison. He doesn't have to cause injury. He just has to make contact, and it's an eight-year federal felony. So he's just committed a violent, forcible felony on an ICE officer. They go to make his arrest. He's not compliant. They hear shouts of, gun, gun, gun.

1:17:23Then the non-compliant party brings his hand into view with an object in his hand. That's going to get you shot in that kind of tumultuous, chaotic fracas about 99 times out of 100. Because the officers, keep in mind, they don't have to be correct in their perception of a threat. They have to have a reasonable perception. That doesn't mean correct. That doesn't mean optimal. That doesn't mean best case. It means reasoned. They were applying their powers of reason to the things they were seeing presented to them in the totality of the circumstances. They're not required to make perfect decisions in self-defense.

1:17:56They're required to make reasonable decisions in self-defense. And again, a prosecutor would have to disprove that beyond any reasonable doubt. The only person responsible for the death of Alex Preddy is Alex Preddy. Dave, do you agree with Andrew's statement of the law? I know you disagree with the application of it, but the statement of the law, does he have it right? Well, under the Graham v. Conner decision by the Supreme Court, Megan, Andrew's right. The officer's perception doesn't have to be correct. It just has to be reasonable at the time. This was a split-second decision, but the decision says it has to be objectively reasonable, not subjectively.

1:18:35So was it objectively reasonable that they started shooting, shooting 10 times in five seconds? Was this guy a legitimate threat when he had seven officers on top of him and the gun had been removed by that point? I mean, perhaps the officers had a mistake of fact where they thought that the gunshot they heard was from the person who was lying face down and they made a mistake. But was it reasonable for them to make that mistake? So I would disagree not on the standard he's using, but on the facts. It looks like to me that the victim here, Mr. Preddy, was not a threat. The officer saw he had a phone in his hand.

1:19:19And the gun was not brandished. And that is something that contradicts what Christine Noem said. He never brandished the gun. He had the gun legally. And so I think there's a legitimate case to be made. I would agree with Andrew that any case by a prosecutor in this area, and I prosecuted one of these cases in my office against an officer, we got a conviction. But they are very hard to do. It's hard to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt unanimously to convict an officer. But I do think you can take this case to the grand jury and get an indictment. Would you do it, Dave? If you were still if you were the D.A.

1:19:51in this county, would you do it? I would. I would. Now, the federal government normally would cooperate with the state. Instead, they're going to try to conceal the evidence. And so the state may have to go it alone. But I would. I think you have enough with the videos and witness testimony that you can get an indictment here. Whether you can get a conviction, it will go to federal court. This case will be removed to federal court. And then the question is, will the federal judge grant the officer immunity? That's a big question. If he does not, then it's game on and you can try him. But it's tough to get 12 jurors throughout the entire state of Minnesota.

1:20:21This is not just Hennepin County jurors. These are conservative jurors. And to get them all to agree to see it one way, that is a challenge. You're talking about in federal court, the grand jurors or the actual jurors, the petite jurors, the 12. Correct. Would come from all over the state? Correct. It's much easier to get an indictment by a grand jury. But the actual jury, because this case will be removed if it does go to trial to federal court, will come from all across the state rather than just blue Hennepin County. OK, so what's your reaction to that, Andrew? Well, I mean, of course, reasonable people can disagree on what they see when they observe the facts.

1:20:58Right. Facts become a matter of opinion. That's why we have juries as the fact finders in trials. I don't know if it's quite true to say that the officer saw a phone in his hand. In other words, that the officer knew it was only a phone. If we assume facts like, well, the officers knew he was disarmed and harmless and not a threat to them and they shot him anyway, well, then obviously that would be an easy conviction. I suspect if we asked the officer, he wouldn't say, I knew it was a phone in his hand. I saw an object in his hand that I perceived as a weapon is what I would expect him to say.

1:21:26In terms of prosecution of this officer and the officer who shot Renee Good, I think the real risk to them is not immediate prosecution. I think if this goes to federal court, it gets dismissed under the supremacy clause. I think the risk to these officers is that Minnesota does not prosecute them, that Minnesota just waits out this administration, hopes a Democrat administration comes in next. And they have a Democrat Department of Justice that's not interested in defending these officers in federal court and would allow a state prosecution to go forward. Remember, there's no statute of limitations on murder.

1:21:57So Minnesota can just wait out this administration. If whoever the next one is, if President Tim Walz is elected to the White House next time and has his own Department of Justice, he could just tell them, listen, I don't want you to try to get this case dismissed in federal court. I want the state prosecution and go forward. And then we're going to have another Derek Chauvin type of trial. because while trump could give these officers immunity with a pardon from federal charges he cannot prevent he can't protect them against state correct that's correct that's scary that actually is really scary i mean maybe that's one of the reasons why you're seeing some of the divide that's in the news today between homan tom homan and christy noem which is being reported everywhere uh but this isn't like just left-wing press saying oh they hate each other.

1:22:46It's like Fox News and the Journal and the New York Post reporting on how there's a rift between Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski on the one hand and Tom Homan, and I think, is it the ICE chief or the Border Patrol chief, on the other. And Homan doesn't want to be doing immigration enforcement this way. And reportedly, Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski do. Like they, they were fine with, shall I say, more showy, uh, arrests and, uh, greater sort of in your face presence. And I think Holman, who's been doing this a long time and actually received an award from Barack Obama for how he did it, didn't quite approve of the way this is going.

1:23:27And now we get the announcement last night that Holman is going to Minnesota and he's taking over. And then you see a tweet from Kristi Noem this morning saying, this is great. I approve of this, which is okay. All right. Now everybody's going to spin it however they want to spin it. But I think it is a good thing. Holman's going. Andrew, let me ask you about this. So 10 times in five seconds, Dave points out, they fired. And I know we just talked about this with the Renee Goods shooting, that the Supreme Court has said the first shot was justified. So were the remaining shots. And there'd have to be something to change it if that ruling didn't hold, like a pause.

1:23:59Some of the cases where they've said, OK, actually, shots two through 10 were not OK. There was an intervening pause like where they assess the situation. It was clear the person was dead or hurting and they kept going. But that's not do you see that as this case? No, I don't. The only pauses, I think, were really between the first shot and then a series of three shots. And then you get the popcorn effect of shooting. It's not at all uncommon to get a lot of shots on a suspect when you have a lot of police officers. None of the police officers are emptying their magazines necessarily. But if you have a number of officers shooting and they each shoot two or three rounds, which is generally reasonable, pistol bullets are not very effective.

1:24:39They're trained to shoot more than once. If you have three or four officers shooting three rounds each, pretty soon you get 10, 12, 15 rounds that have been fired. But it's all being fired in the same compressed time frame in which it's not yet clear that the threat they're legally privileged to neutralize has been neutralized. Once that's apparent, then they have to make the decision to stop using force. They're no longer privileged to do that. That's where the pause comes in, right? If there's a pause and it's apparent the person's no longer a threat and you use force again, that successive use of force would not be legally justified.

1:25:11But I just don't see that here. Let me play the soundbite again where you can hear all of the shots. Again, apologies for the very annoying whistles blowing, but here it is. The fuck is wrong with you? Honestly.

1:25:40What the fuck did you just do? What the fuck did you just do? What the fuck? I don't see that, Dave, as being enough of any sort of pause to change the default rule, which is the Supreme Court does not care how many times the cops shoot. If the first shot is OK, the rest are, too. Megan, I did hear some pauses in there, and I think those pauses are where prosecutors can use it. I agree with you that I don't think this is the strongest argument to convict the cops to say that they should have just shot once and not 10 times. But it is an argument because once a suspect is incapacitated or the threat is removed, that the justification for deadly force ends and the continued firing into a motionless body.

1:26:24It's tough to reconcile with any reasonable mistake of fact. But I think the stronger argument actually for the prosecutors is just that, number one, at no point during that video did Preti draw the weapon, point it, place his hand on the holster. And so if you want to say it's a mistake by the officers, well, only if the suspect's movements are consistent with that action, like drawing or brandishing. Here he was sprayed, pepper sprayed, tackled, and they were on top of him. And now also the agent who shot Freddie was standing next to the agent in the gray jacket who had just removed the gun.

1:27:00And in training in a team-based enforcement action, the officers are trained to maintain this situational awareness, like 360 degrees. The officer who shot him was standing next to the guy who pulled away the gun. So I think all these give grist to prosecutors issues. But that's requiring the one officer to have noticed that the other officer got the gun away from the suspect. It all happened so quickly. I did not hear the officer who pulled the gun away from Preddy say, I've gotten – I've retrieved the gun. Correct. We hear gun, gun, gun. We don't know specifically what was the gun. Correct. And he should have said that.

1:27:37But, yes, that is a fair point. But also there's my main point is that there's nothing there that would give cause for the officers to reason to believe that this guy was a threat. The gun that he had was concealed. Well, what about somebody yelling gun, gun, gun, which which could I mean, maybe that was the wrong thing to yell. To be honest, I don't know, because I my perception is this is just my perception. This may all change after the investigation. They heard that and they they assumed wielding that the suspect was wielding. You could see his hands. The guy was on his knees in front of you.

1:28:10You could see his hands. His hands had the same cell phone he had the entire time. So that's the thing that I can't reconcile that because someone mistakenly yells gun. You start shooting. That's not what you're supposed to do. So that's my issue. What do you make of that, Andrew? Well, again, we don't know that the officer knew it was a cell phone in his hand. You hear gun, gun, gun. A gunshot goes off. There's an object in the suspect's hand. And the officers are allowed to rely on the actions of the other officers, presumptively reasonable. So when one officer shoots the other officers, you hear gun, gun, gun, a gunshot.

1:28:44There's an object in the guy's hand. One officer is shooting, presumably because he reasonably perceives an eminent unlawful threat of death or serious bodily injury. The other officers are allowed to rely on that perception. So they're going to shoot too. Again, they don't have to be making perfect decisions or even good decisions. They just have to be reasoned decisions. And a prosecutor would have to disprove that position beyond any reasonable doubt. I think there's more than enough evidence here to build a narrative that there's at least a reasonable doubt that these officers had that reasonable perception.

1:29:17The couple things. There is a report now on this gun, which was a Sig Sauer P329 millimeter, that this model, according to Rob Dobar, a lawyer for the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus, who believes that this gun likely went off after the agent grabbed it and said he thinks it's highly likely the first shot was a negligent discharge from the agent in the gray jacket. There is a report that this model, widely carried by armed civilians and U.S. law enforcement, has been the subject of more than 100 allegations that it has a defect that allows it to fire uncommanded. This is the this is the Alec Baldwin argument, Andrew.

1:29:59Right. Like I didn't pull the trigger. No, no, no, no, no, no. I never pulled the trigger. The gun just went off. But that this somehow went off uncommanded. And, you know, if that's what happened, then my God, this is a true, true tragedy because somebody yelled gun. The gun was retrieved. It went off uncommanded. And then the other officers thought a gun had been fired, which would probably lead most cops to start firing themselves. Yeah, that could readily be the case. I mean, this gun has that reputation. I don't know if it's true or not. I want to make clear. But the gun has a reputation for uncommanded discharges.

1:30:31The truth is, if a car had backfired and it sounded like a gunshot, the officers would have been privileged to react as if there were a gunshot. That was a reasonable perception on this part. This was, in fact, apparently a gun going off very close. Guns are extremely loud. It actually hurts your ears when the gun goes off within a few feet of you if you don't have hearing protection on. So it's a shocking, disruptive kind of event. That's why you see all the officers jump, create distance. That's training as well. You're supposed to get away from what you think the weapon may be as quickly as possible.

1:31:06It could be just a complete tragedy in that the gun just went off by itself. And that's what triggered, made reasonable the officers' perceptions that a deadly force threat was in play. Can I just play this for you? Cash Patel said this. Scott Besson said something similar. And it's getting a lot of blowback from the right, from the right, SOT 23. I mean, thousands of people are marching through Minneapolis. They are targeting the Border Patrol. I mean, it feels like the rhetoric and the the protesting is only ramping up. What is your advice to the people right now who are outraged that this is a second killing at the hands of Border Patrol in two weeks?

1:31:48I guess Christie said you cannot bring a firearm loaded with multiple magazines to any sort of protest that you want it's that simple you don't have that right to break the law and incite violence we will of course always protect your first amendment speech and if you peacefully protest there is absolutely nothing wrong with that but you have seen a trend here not just in Minnesota but across the country in these protests turning into violent scenarios and people attacking law enforcement. That's when you go over the line and that's when law enforcement steps in. Okay. So the problem there is I'll get Andrew to weigh in on this too, Dave, but you are allowed to bring a gun.

1:32:26Minnesota is, I think they allow concealed carry and this guy wasn't doing anything wrong just by carrying a loaded gun. I think we should be clear on that. Yeah. You got a rebuke from the NRA on that one when the U S attorney was saying the same thing Kasper Tell did. And it is in direct contravention to what Kyle Rittenhouse was doing. The same people who are defending Kyle Rittenhouse are now saying you should never bring a gun to these events. Well, he had a permit for it. So it was legal and he didn't brandish it. Not once. Alex Preddy. Alex Preddy. Excuse me. Alex Preddy. Never brandished it.

1:33:00It was legal. He had the permit. Correct. If I could go back just to something that Andrew said, he talked about the chain of causation here about when the gun went off the SIG because it may have a defect. You can't claim self-defense, though, based on a threat that you accidentally created. So if a federal agent was the one who mishandled the weapon or chose a firearm with a documented history of uncommanded discharges, the resulting panic is a product of their own negligence, not Freddie's actions. They're not going to put Officer B in jail for Officer A if the officer A negligently actually did discharge the firearm, he pulled the trigger, they're not going to hold that negligence against officer B in determining what's a reasonable suspicion that you're about to be heard.

1:33:48Well, it could be negligence. I mean, in a civil suit, I think that that argument would have merit. In a criminal prosecution, no. Yep. No. OK, so what do you what do you make of what Kash Patel said there, Andrew? Because Scott Besson said it, too. Like the I do think it's kind of the issue here is not that he had a gun on him. Like this is America. you're allowed in virtually every place, not New York City, where I spent the past 14 years. But most places you can carry a gun, including a loaded gun. That's not what this guy did wrong. It went beyond. And by the way, the law is also generally in the Eighth Circuit in particular, an individual's mere possession of a firearm is not enough for an officer to have probable cause to believe that individual poses an imminent threat of death or seriously bodily injury.

1:34:31The suspect must also point the firearm at another individual or take similar menacing action. You heard Dave use that term. Was he menacing, Andrew? And I think that's where it's people who reduce it to, oh, no, no, no. He couldn't have been shot just for carrying a loaded gun. That's true. He did more than that. There was menacing. Well, he did more than that. he committed a felony assault on the ICE officer or the Customs and Border Patrol officer by putting hands on him. That's a federal felony. You can't do that. But it's not a problem with the gun. No one was bothering him before he committed an attack on an officer.

1:35:11Nobody was bothering him because he had a gun. Nobody shot him because he had a gun, because he was exercising his Second Amendment rights or had a couple spare magazines. He got shot because he fought the police. He fought the law and the law won. What about that, Dave? Because, you know, I know that they're there. These agitators believe some of them, at least, that they're doing good or they're doing some sort of protective detail. But like you, as a former state's attorney, know very well to interfere with an active law enforcement operation is complete and utter folly. You are endangering yourself, the law enforcement officers and the community.

1:35:49And isn't that really what cost Alex pretty his life. He made a really foolish mistake. He got in between law enforcement and this other woman who was a protester that they were, she was also in between them and their arrestee that they were trying to nab. Both of them inserted themselves and then he resisted arrest, but he placed hands on the officer and then resisted arrest. Am I wrong? I could see the resisting arrest, which would be a misdemeanor under state law. I don't see the felony assault against a federal agent. If you look at the video, it shows Preddy putting his arms around a woman who had just been shoved to the ground by agents, and he was facing the woman, not the agents.

1:36:29And so then he was pepper sprayed, and his right hand was holding his phone, and the left hand was raised. And so I don't think that's assaulted behavior there. It sounds like he was reacting to getting pepper sprayed for just trying to be a good Samaritan. Well, you can't interfere with a lawful arrest and say you're doing it as a good Samaritan. You're committing a crime. If he's interfering with the arrest of the woman, he's committing a crime. He puts hands-on to the officer. That's a violation of 18 U.S.C. 111, impeding an officer by contact. That's good for eight years in federal prison.

1:37:01But when I watched the video, I didn't see the officers arresting the woman. I saw them push the woman to the ground, and then he went to her aide, and then he got pepper sprayed. And then it was off. Well, all I can do is suggest people look at the video. Can we play the video again, Deb? Let's take another look at it. It's hot, too. Sorry for the whistle. So they've shoved one person down to the ground.

1:37:27I'd narrate it better for the listening audience, but it's so far away from me, and it's such a tiny box from where I'm sitting. And all he has to do is lay a finger on the officer while he's obstructing. All that's required is contact, not injury, not injury, just contact. You don't see that? You don't see contacting? I see it as resisting, which would be a misdemeanor under state law. I don't see a felony assault there because if you look at the circumstances, he had just been pepper sprayed. He has the phone up and he's reacting to it. Yeah, I think it does. Does it matter? Like if he was if he wasn't committing a felony but was inserting himself in law enforcement faces and being antagonistic and they were trying to get him out of the way and then he resisted them.

1:38:14I mean, the statutory language, the statutory language is you resist, oppose or impede with contact. That's all that's required. And also, even if he is, it doesn't give you the license to kill there. It doesn't give you the license to shoot. He wasn't killed for that. Well, right. So that's why that's it's it's irrelevant. Look, I think he did resist. I do not think he committed felony assault. I think if anything, it'd be a misdemeanor under state law. But as far as. But just so we're really clear on this point, he doesn't have to have committed felony assault for the police officers to be exonerated here.

1:38:46Andrew's just adding that in as yet another factor. And that's correct because the question is, as we said from the beginning, were the police officers in reasonable fear of their lives or serious bodily harm and was it imminent? And that's where I say they were not, especially not the later shots, but especially when they saw his hands the whole time they were on top of him. He never brandished his weapon and they started shooting because they heard a gunfire, which was because of their own doing. And so I think you have to look at everything, and that's why I think charges would be appropriate here, although, again, a conviction is far, far from certain.

1:39:19How is it going to affect things, if at all, that Kristi Noem is out there saying what appear to be untrue things about Alex Preddy and his presence there? Here's thought 16B. This looks like a situation where an individual arrived at the scene to inflict maximum damage on individuals and to kill law enforcement. About hundreds of protesters then showed up at the scene. They began to obstruct and to assault law enforcement officers. We saw objects being thrown at them, including ice and other objects. And a rampant assault began and even an HSI officer agent's finger was bitten off. With respect to Secretary Noem, it now looks like even ICE agents are disputing that, giving a statement to Bill Malusian saying this is utterly unhelpful.

1:40:09These statements have been, quote, catastrophic and that they are fed up because overstating what's gone on, you know, in this case, overstating what Alex Preddy had intended is just undermining their credibility. And now there's an open rift between the two. But does this play at all legally? Does this get brought up legally in any way? Go ahead, Dave. Oh, I think it does when it comes to the state seeking the evidence from the federal government. I think they're going to say that the federal government is not acting in good faith. Therefore, you have to order them to turn over the evidence to us.

1:40:40And normally when the feds say we are going to keep the evidence and you don't get it, it's because they're going to prosecute the case themselves. Not when they try to protect the officer from the beginning. This shows they're not trying to investigate. They're trying to cover up the actions of the officer. she did not do the federal government of service or the federal agents who I think would want the evidence to be turned over because something could be exculpatory. Andrew, I got 20 seconds left. Go ahead. Well, I would just concur with that assessment. It's completely unhelpful. It's very important for the administration to stick strictly to what is demonstrably true and not engage in mind reading about people's motives when there's no evidence to support it.

1:41:15And it can lead to exactly the kind of arguments Dave just raised. You can sense the frustration. I mean, I'm sure she was trying to have their back, but there's a good way of doing it. And there's a not that great way of doing it. We'll continue to follow it. You guys, thank you. Learned a lot. We appreciate it, David and Andrew both. We'll back tomorrow with Ruthless. We'll see you then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.