What the Lindsay Clancy Trial EXPOSES About Society, North West's Disturbing Look, and Hayden Panettiere Blame Game, with Dr. Drew | Ep. 1385

28:19I mean, it was sort of like, it was a little bit embodied in the now infamous Tom Cruise, Brooke Shields kerfuffle back in the day when she went on the Today Show and said she was suffering from postpartum. And she resorted to some sort of drug to help her with it. And Tom Cruise went on after the fact and just berated her because Scientologists don't believe, and Scientology obviously has got its issues. We've covered them extensively on the show. But there is a strain of Scientology that is actually quite good in my humble opinion. And it's the strain that says, A, you cut out people of your life who are toxic.

28:56You know, you completely—I'm not endorsing Scientology. You also have to cut out people who aren't Scientologists who are your family members, which is not good. But I'm just saying, I like the part that says, if somebody's toxic to you, you completely otherize them in your own life. You don't talk about them. You don't think about them. You don't let other people mention them to you. You just completely cut what to you is a cancer out, which can be a very healthy mental health option. And they're not big on drugs, especially when it comes to mental health. And I got to be honest, I'm not big on them either.

29:33Even these SSRIs, they seem to cause depression. Once you get on them, you seem to get used to them. Then you have to up your dose. and then you have to try another one. It seems like one cycle after another. This is my layperson's opinion, Doc. So again, these are, we're into some really interesting territory for which there's no one answer, okay? But worth thinking about for everybody. The way I think about it for Scientology is like, hmm, they got a point. You know, there's stuff they bring up. It's like, okay, yeah, you got a point there. And, you know, they will often point at the psychosurgeries for which somebody won a Nobel Prize.

30:06And I, when I first started working in a psychiatric hospital, the first thing that happened is I acquired all the medical catastrophes that were left over from all the psychosurgeries, which were catastrophic. It was ridiculous what we did. Anyway. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Psychosurgeries, that to me is like lobotomy. I thought that was like 1940s, 50s stuff. You're telling me like in your practice as a physician, you still saw hangovers from that kind of thing? I was working at an old psychiatric hospital, been there a hundred years it was like a museum of psychiatry and some of the chronic care patients had had singulotomies or lobotomies in the late 50s and now they were in their 70s and i got them as medical patients and i got to see the disasters that this all created and by the way no there was never any long-term studies on lobotomy they don't know what they what happened i i blame the neurosurgeons.

31:02They stayed quiet during that whole catastrophe. And I could tell by the way they were writing about it, they were just mortified that psychiatrists were going to the bedside. It's like how the endocrinologist and pediatricians are staying silent now as we do this to children, as we cut off their body parts and sterilize them. Same thing, complicit. These things keep happening. The opiate addiction, the psychosurgeries, all these things have the same structure to them. You get an evangelical group of physicians who go around and get control of the regulatory organizations that then get into academia, that then mandate things, and doctors shut up.

31:37They're afraid. We are universally afraid. Do you know how the opioid thing happened? It really got going because they prosecuted physicians for inadequate treatment of pain, which is not malpractice. That's a criminal and civil liability. And doctors immediately stopped prescribing opiates and sent everybody to pain management who took the position that pain is what the patient says it is. The fifth vital sign is pain, more important than your pulse. And off this thing went. COVID, same structure. Dr. Birx runs around to every government, every state government, and gets control. All of a sudden, masking shut down, school closures.

32:15These are things that were pushed. And the government officials are, what's the term that they use in communism? The useful idiots for all that. But once it gets going, it's very hard to stop. But let me just talk about pills. We have another problem in this country, back to Dr. Freud and Ordinary Misery, which is we expect pills to make life better. Pills are not designed to make life better. Doctors treat disease, possibly syndromes, and possibly I'm accepting sort of intolerable symptoms. But medications are only used when they are worth the risk. and there's always huge risk every time I open my prescription pad.

32:59And we have lost track of that entirely. Pills only make things better. It's got to always have, and trying other things first, like you're suggesting, I'm all for it. I'm all for it, as long as it's carefully managed. Even though I wouldn't take them myself, and I certainly wouldn't want my children taking them if they ever needed them, I don't judge the people who do, because I do know some people who have taken them, and said that they were helped by them. So I don't have any judgment in my heart against them. Megan, I'm going to interrupt you. It's a case-by-case basis. I'm going to interrupt, not just case-by-case, but treatment when properly prescribed, the outcomes are good.

33:38Treatment when the prescribing circumstance is a little vague, you're more likely to have adverse outcome. Right, prescribed and then managed. Yes. Like these drugs, like if your doctor's going to put you on, I don't know, a statin, whatever, People go on those for years. They go to an annual appointment with their physician. It's all fine. These drugs seem to require active management by the psychiatrist who prescribes them because they actually can cause more of the very thing that they were prescribed to fix. And the next thing you know, your patient's in a downward spiral. And she was getting like, this one woman who was treating her seemed like an idiot who hadn't been out of medical school more than two minutes, who wasn't on the case.

34:26Then she wound up in the care of physician's assistants who weren't even, you know, doctors, no offense to physician's assistants, but there should be a psychiatrist managing psychiatric medicine. And so, and she did see, I mean, I will say this for Lindsay Clancy, She and the husband did seem to try to reach out for medical help, like with these meds, over and over and over again. And she wasn't keeping it a secret that she was having these issues. She seemed to have been jumping up and down saying, for the love of God, somebody please help me. Yes, and back to what I was saying about primary care, you're not going to see doctors anymore in primary care.

35:04Look, some physicians, assistants, and nurse practitioners are outstanding. Some are not. But you're not going to see doctors anymore. That's what the insurance company has made sure to set it up that way. They have eviscerated primary care, I'm telling you. The other thing is primary care extenders and otherwise are the predominant prescribers of these medicines, and they are not trained to do it. I was interested in the brain in psychiatry. I arrived at the psychiatric hospital, was very enthusiastic about learning psychiatry. I thought I knew something about it. After a year, I thought, oh my God, I don't know anything.

35:40I need psychiatric consults because it gets complicated. After five years there, I went, I'm never prescribing without a psychiatric consult. And they almost are never asked for. And patients resist them. They resist psychiatric consults. I don't want to see that. I'm not crazy. I don't want to see a psychiatrist. Well, I love my therapist. I've said before, he's more like a life coach than he is a shrink. But I can sum up his advice for all the listening audience. People are complicated. People are complicated. He's right. We are. We are. But you mentioned the growing sort of what's going, the mob that's growing around Lindsey Clancy.

36:21I am gravely concerned about mobs right now. I predicted it. I wanted to write a chapter about it in a book because I saw the narcissistic turn. I saw all the trauma in childhood. And I couldn't find a period of history where there was as much of that as pre-revolutionary France. So I just deduced that there's going to be guillotines, there's going to be moms, and we are in it. And it's dangerous now. It's really—I woke up this morning feeling scared. Thank you for saying that because I've worried about this, Doc, because much in the same way when we see a suicide, you know, a very prominent public suicide, they tend to come in threes.

36:57You know, it's almost always the case just from a news person's perspective that when you see one, then you see follow-up ones. Remember, there was Anthony Bourdain and there was Kate Spade. And then we just had two others publicly. But in any event, I worry about that dynamic affecting moms. Like the idea has been floated and and in a way blessed by these loons who are doing these videos and like making Lindsay Clancy into some sort of a heroine. there should be a fair amount of condemnation and scorn. Even if you have some empathy for her and the mental health struggle she went through, I think we must have a fair amount of condemnation and scorn.

37:38Well, I must tell you what I'm seeing in response to, and it's not that, which is men fleeing. I'm just seeing male flight, I would call it, from relationships. relationships. You go on Instagram and X and you'll see all men like, I don't, these women should not, I don't want them to have my kids. I don't want these. I don't. No, no, no, no. They're right. Well, and it's, it's, you know, that 90 day fiance show was prescient. They're going elsewhere to find women to be in relationships with. And it has accelerated. A lot of men. They should. Or what's it? They should. Well, they're doing it. And it's they should.

38:25Why would you marry one of these lunatics? You there any any man, any man out there should marry somebody who is mentally well. I mean, that has to be the first criterion, you know, like before you do anything. What's her family like? What's her background like? How does she handle adversity, stress, sadness? Like all of those things need to be like, you can compromise on like, oh, he's not as clever as I'd like. You know, I'd like somebody with a sharper sense of humor. You cannot compromise on basic mental health. I agree with you. And there's a layer above that, which is there is a movement to vilify men.

39:08and a lot of women have bought fully into it and then have strange expectations about marriage and childbearing, as we were talking about earlier. And there's, I was, again, maybe the algorithm was feeding me stuff, but I saw a ridiculous number of videos, women saying, oh, I just not feeling it anymore. I just, I love the guy, you know, yeah, they're in a beautiful home. You know, they're obviously is very supportive of them financially and otherwise. And I need to end this. I'm kind of not feeling it. And then fast forward to a video of the same woman sobbing, like, he doesn't want to be my friend anymore.

39:41And men think to themselves, honey, you just ruined his life. You destroyed this guy. And of course he doesn't want to be your friend. And there's all this confusion going on in women and men and their relationships in this country. It's not so much elsewhere. So men are fleeing. It's sad to see. i i completely agree this is one of the many reasons why dr jordan peterson's work has been so important and his he'll fire right back at you if you play that card what about you how great are you you think you're so great sister like you have no flaws what do you think led him to be so apathetic or to wind up cheating he's not you know it's not about i'm not ready to do that i'm not ready to blame the guy but it's also but it's also not about always blaming the man it's it's it is it's more that zone where you know it's so it's so um disposable humans are disposable relationships are disposable that that's a horrible quality we need to invest in relations whole notion of building a family people don't even talk about that when they get married they talk about weddings you you're you're going to be the head of a family that gets built and you're going to build it, God willing, through generations.

40:53And that is the function of those two people getting married. That's why we do that. Now, you don't have to have kids. That's fine. That's free country, all for it. But if you - As we're seeing, many people shouldn't. Right. And if you get to it, if you do do it, you got to think about leading this unit that is the foundation of society. And it's under attack. It's been under attack for quite a while. Yeah. Some of that messaging, it has been apparent in these crazy videos that here's a little flavor of what we're hearing around the Clancy trial on this front. It's not 10. Every one of us that have roots that go back to the Salem witch trials, we are freeing our ancestral bloodline by coming together for Lindsay Clancy.

41:41That's why that shit is happening in Massachusetts. It's happening right near Salem. we are coming together and not letting our sister go down for a crime she didn't commit the rise of the matriarchy is here the patriarchy is fucking dead we will burn it at the stake i'm going to sweden spoken like a woman who doesn't have sons right i'm going to sweden i'm gonna go to somewhere else go to thailand find somebody somewhere else uh fine that's what that's what a man thinks. Russia, Eastern Europe, Europe, you know, like where you have more hardline women who respect and love their men and understand like a family hierarchy and are fine with it.

42:24But like, yeah, I would never want somebody I know and love to wind up with that crazy. But I, but I, I, at the same time, I was such a moderate Megan. I'm, I'm, I'm brutal this way in my own brain, which I get what she's saying. I get the, I get the point. I get, yes, yes. Horrible things have happened to women, for sure, for sure. That doesn't mean that we should use, what, the court system as a means of getting justice for the Salem witch trial for women that were mistreated. The Salem witch trial, that was made up shit. There were no witches. They were pointing at normal female behavior and calling it witch-like behavior because of religious zealotry.

43:07And in this case, there's no dispute. she killed those three children absolutely and i would say there's something even more sinister that they're not acknowledging is that the salem witch child was a mass formation psychosis it was hysteria and i would argue that's what's happening all over the place in this country for every little medical issue it's happened for cyclospora it's happening for monkey pox is it everything is everything is a mass formation now that is exceedingly dangerous it's it's the mob stuff I was mob behavior. I was talking about, I mean, mob crime syndicate. I mean, people are gathering and scapegoating it's out of control right now.

43:45It's very strange. It's a leftist phenomenon. It's not happening on the right. This is not right wing women. Conservative women are not posting these videos. They are not falling for this nonsense. They don't talk about men that way. This is a leftist thing. And I was saying the other day that these women who are posting these videos that we're looking at together, you know why are they doing it and i think it's because on the left it's very popular to have every disorder ever known to man whatever it is you've got it and the more of them you have the special more special you are the more you get to talk about yourself which is a very favorite pastime for this sort of brand of women and nothing nothing i've mentioned this to the audience embodies this more to me than this woman who was stopped on suspicion of dwi a couple years ago.

44:33You got to watch this, Drew. But this cop is so respectful of her. She's a nut, but she, she's one of them. And you watch. I have like really bad social anxiety and stuff. I get you. This person.

44:52Right back here, please. Miss Perry? Am I? I'm non-binary, so. Okay. What do you go by? Kai. How can I refer to you tonight? Kai? Okay. Hey, I'm smelling alcohol. I know. How much have you consumed tonight? Probably three drinks. I need to run you through some tests right now. Stand facing me please. But I just want you to know that I also have very bad social anxiety. You and me both. Okay. Okay. Any recent head trauma, traumatic brain injuries, anything I need to know about? Mental, yes. Focus on my finger please. I am. You're just like trying to intimidate me. I don't know how I'm trying to do that.

45:33This is the test. As you know as an indigenous person and there's a bunch of sh** going around, I'm sorry but it's just for me to be on my toes. I get you. Can you remember that I told you that? I'm non-binary. Yeah, I'll try my hardest. I'll refer to you as Kai, right? Yes. Perfect. I need to know if you have any injuries or anything that would prevent you from doing a standard walk or a turn tonight. mental health any physical injuries I get you not call me man please I'm trying my hardest okay okay it means a lot to me I'm trying my hardest okay it's kind of triggering right foot in front of your left nope go back I'm sorry with the whole man thing.

46:28Just like... I apologize. Let's see if we can move forward from it. I just want to tell you that I suffer from really bad anxiety, especially with generational trauma and PTSD around white people and cops. It's like... It's just... You're going to get a relationship, right? I don't! Don't resist. Don't! Listen to me. Don't resist. Don't! you're being a white man and don't i followed all of your like i'm an indigenous person like you guys you guys are scaring me there's nothing to be afraid of yes there is i i just i mean you should be teaching off of this clip yeah i just look at that and i go oh what have we done to this poor woman oh my god and it and it's not the cops yeah it reminds no Oh, it was Christopher Columbus and crew.

47:29Right, right, right. That is so damaging for people. It reminds me of another point, which is that for anxiety these days, the treatment, and for OCD in particular, the only treatment really that works is exposure therapy. Exposing people to the stressors that they are having anxiety about or exposing them to their obsessions, whatever they might be. in a systematic way. That builds the resilience necessary to manage these, what she's describing, you know, complex PTSD and anxiety and whatnot. There's no hope for her. Otherwise, she's just going to be completely incapacitated. And I would not want that for her.

48:13She's there. She's basically in a fetal position. Just to go through it one more time. You're trying to, okay, first, no, first she says, I'm non-binary. Call me Kai. I have very bad social anxiety and mental trauma. You're trying to intimidate me. I'm an indigenous person. Remember, I'm non-binary. I have mental health injuries. I have PTSD. I have depression. I have anxiety. Don't call me ma 'am. It's triggering. The ma 'am thing, that's what's forcing her to not perform well on the DWI tests. I have very bad anxiety. I have generational trauma, PTSD around whites and cops. He tells her, don't resist.

48:49You're being a white man. I'm indigenous. I'm scared. Yeah, I really hope Miss Perry got arrested and the help that she needs. But that walking fetal position woman is everywhere on the left, on the left, Drew. And we see them. That's who's posting these videos. Well, two things underlying that is a very significant feeling of rage. And that rage gets acted out through mob focusing on scapegoats and projection. I see it in you. You're the horrible person. You're the rageful one. You're doing this to me. That rage never gets addressed. But the other issue that's even more concerning is that you watch what happens on social media because of this conversation.

49:46the psychological community the academic training community has been captured and i've been hearing from young psychologists there's actually something called what's it open therapy or something to try to restore it save psychology from this phenomenon they take the position that yes the reason people are having psychological distress is colonialism and everything can be sent back to that. Oh my. Yes. That's. Oh, come on. In the medical community, they're going with this. Academic training kids this way. Training young. So it's possible that that all came from a psychologist. You know, it makes sense because one of my doctors was telling me that when he does rounds at the hospital now, they're not allowed to ask somebody if they're a man or a woman.

50:34They can't. They're they can't like they had to like check the chart and figure it out on their own. All right, stand by. Much more with Dr. Drew. We're going to take a quick break. More after this. Imagine this. You are surrounded by fellow fans sharing wings, sharing drinks, high-fiving random strangers. Everyone remembers the game. No one remembers the guy coughing behind you until a few days later at 2 a.m. you wake up with a fever and your throat is on fire. Now what? Urgent care? Closed. ER? Forget it. Telehealth? Maybe, but the pharmacy's closed. This is where a medical emergency kit from the wellness company could come in.

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53:27Back with me now is Dr. Drew. He is the host of Ask Dr. Drew. You can find all of his content at drdrew.tv. So Dr. Drew, there's another case that's, it's different from Lindsay Clancy, but it's got some shades that are similar that I wanted to ask you about. It's a horrific murder of an 18-year-old young woman. Her name was Caroline Heinz, and she was allegedly murdered by her boyfriend, Royce Moser. They'd been dating for quite some time. They had been to at least two proms together. This just happened. She was 18. She was a rising freshman going off to Pennsylvania Western University. She was a standout soccer player, was set to make her collegiate debut for the university.

54:18Next week, she had one sister. She was dating Royce Moser, who graduated from Cannon-McMillan High School. She went to a different high school, about seven miles away. He, as far as I know, was not off to college, but whatever. They were together for quite some time. Two proms together, including one 12 weeks ago. Royce, who is the, he's the he's the male, Royce wrote on her Instagram, best two nights ever with you, with hearts. It went back and forth with her hearts and his hearts. And then on Wednesday of last week at 9.30 PM, according to a police affidavit, here's what happened. Heinz, again, Caroline is her first name, left her father's home in Peters Township around 9.30 PM.

55:13She told her dad she might stop at a Target before returning to campus. She met up with Royce Moser, the boyfriend, outside of his father's home after spending the day with her family, just north of Pittsburgh, this is. During the discussion, Royce Moser reportedly became angry. He told her, and we don't know why it caused the fight, but they were clearly having a fight or a breakup or something. Quote, he told her, wait, I have something for you. and went inside of the residence to get a knife. Oh my God. He then came back outside and stabbed her to death. Oh my God, it's just. It's so horrific.

55:49The Pennsylvania State Police report as follows. Royce Moser, the defendant, then retrieved a large kitchen knife, stabbed Heinz in the chest. After she fell from the vehicle, Royce Moser placed her in the rear hatch area of the Jeep and drove to the residence of his mother, Rachel Moser. Once at the residence, Rachel Moser assisted by attempting to clean the Jeep Cherokee with cleaning sprays. She then provided Royce Moser with latex gloves and instructed him to follow her to the university. Mom and son drove 35 miles south to California, Pennsylvania. This is a town, California. They then left the Jeep Cherokee near the California's library and Heinz, with Heinz still inside.

56:32The mother, Rachel, then drove the son, Royce, back to her residence where he cleaned his clothes and showered. Meanwhile, Caroline's father had been checking her iPhone location. He later checked her location on his phone, noticed that she had stopped at her boyfriend's house where her devices put her for about 30 minutes. after he was unable to get a hold of her, the California Police Department, California, Pennsylvania Police Department was contacted because an air tag in her vehicle showed she was in a parking lot in the borough. According to court documents, the police department was notified to check the area for a Jeep Cherokee at 1224 a.m.

57:10They found the Jeep. They noticed the blood spatter. They found the body. The mother of the son, Royce, Rachel, told investigators her son called her in early morning hours and said he needed her to follow him to the university to drop off a vehicle, later admitting he had stabbed Heinz and needed a ride home. That appears to have been lies. She appears to have been brought in much earlier in the evening. She said he told her that he had demons and did not know whether Caroline was alive or dead when he moved her. He gave an interview himself, Royce did, told investigators that he had a, quote, demon take over during the confrontation before he retrieved the knife and stabbed her.

57:54He told police how his mother had helped him to clean the car, told him to take a bath, then shower after. She allegedly put his clothes in the washing machine for him. Royce told the police his mother took the knife that was used to stab the victim and put it in a garbage bag to be put in the trash outside of her house, where indeed they found it. He's now been charged with homicide, among other charges. The mother is charged with hindering apprehension of a fugitive and tampering with evidence, among other charges. This is, as far as we know, out of the blue. As far as we know, they're not referencing any criminal history or juvenile history for the defendant here, the prom, the hearts.

58:37It's horrible. In an instant, two lives at least, completely ruined forever. I guess we'll learn more about it as time goes along, but it's incomprehensible. And when things seem incomprehensible to me, I always worry about dark triad and psychopathy. And psychopathy is a heritable disorder. And mom seems to have manifested some of the same stuff, which is not acknowledging that something wrong was going on. Think about how different. I mean, people will go, oh, do anything to protect my kids. No, you shouldn't. No, you shouldn't. When they do horrible things, you've got to let things come to bear.

59:15Look at the murderer of Charlie Kirk. What did his dad do? Turned him in, we think. I think that's what happened, right? Yeah. And that's the right thing to do. That's the correct thing to do. You go, oh, you've done something horrible. Here we go. I would not protect you for this. And let me ask you a question on this, because to me, it seems, as a parent, the first horrible thing is not usually murder. There's probably a long line in this kid's history of the mother and possibly the father downplaying it, making excuses, getting him out of it, sort of teaching him the absence of accountability.

59:54That's my guess. That is exactly what tends to happen. And the parental denial, even when the child is severely impaired with all kinds of things, psychiatric problems, the getting the parents to come to terms with or get the individual to care is what causes the catastrophes. They don't get them there soon enough and they're in so much denial about it. They minimize it, they marginalize it, that kind of stuff. People need to understand the difference between a parenting problem and a brain problem. They are very, very different phenomenon and you need to get brain issues to a professional quickly or horrible things can happen in this case i agree with you though it's probably more of a anti-social quality to what he was been doing the mom also anti-social perhaps and is sort of you know manipulating and minimizing and dissembling and it's tragic it's it's just unbelievable i mean look at those pictures imagine your daughter was dating a kid like that you wouldn't even be let's say they're away at college and you had met the kid but you just see the pictures online you wouldn't even have a reason to be suspicious right that's kind of the way psychopathy and dark triad stuff goes What's dark triad?

1:01:03Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy, the three together. And people are thinking in terms of having varying degrees of one or the other, but some people have all three in full blossom. And all this stuff is way more common these days, certainly than the cluster B side, we call that the narcissism side, than we've had maybe ever. And once again, acting out is the norm for those people, for those disorders. But how do you predict? I mean, if you could do this, you'd be a billionaire. Well, not a billionaire, I'd be able to save a bunch of lives, you know, because you can't predict this.

1:01:41Well, I'm just saying, like, this would be an extremely marketable thing to be able to do.

1:01:49Predict violence. You know, it's like teenage love may be gone awry. She's going off to college. He's not. But, like, then he took a knife and stabbed her in the heart. I mean, this is on the heels of 2025. Carmelo Anthony took a knife and stabbed Austin Metcalf in the heart, a complete stranger. I mean, at least in the latter situation, when it's young love, I don't know. I mean, let's face it, you know, men in love with women have been killing them for a long, long time. This is actually not that unusual, sadly. But like the Austin Metcalfe was such a shocker because it was like out of nowhere, like just one teen taking a knife and stabbing another to death in the heart.

1:02:31And yet with new information that has come out in court, apparently it wasn't just, oh, just two random, random high functioning teens who happened to run in the wrong, you know, sort of run into each other. Both of them had long. That all makes sense when you start reading their long history of violence and antisocial behavior. Both of them. I mean, just terrible stuff. Now, we went into all the details on this one was more violent. One was more antisocial and sort of provocative and racist and stuff. But but you sort of you can put those pieces together. This one, I don't know. We'll see. I you know, that is the dad saying that he's heard, you know, that maybe this kid was had some issues.

1:03:11I mean, do you think that would all pile in now? But then again, the attorneys may have told him to shut up. We'll wait till we get to court. Almost certainly they did. Um, then speaking of, you know, people who are not, not great mothers, um, there is the mother of Hayden Penetier, Lindsay Vogel, and she's been making the rounds. Have you seen any of this woman's commentary since her daughter died? I have read a little bit and I, I, you know, I don't want us to displace, you know, blame. I don't like that. I think we have to understand it as a complicated situation. But there's a lot of let me just frame what I look at with this, which was that Hayden had longstanding addiction, opiate addiction figure prominently.

1:03:56People lose track all the time. Everybody loses track. The fact that opiate addiction is progressive and ends in death, unless it is in daily treatment for remission. It ends in death. I cannot say that strongly enough. That's where opiate addiction goes. You have to work hard. The The prognosis for opiate addiction is significantly worse than the vast majority of cancers. And yet we treat it like some sort of weakness that people should be able to overcome. It's a very dangerous illness. Can I just ask you, can I ask you to elaborate on that? Because it's not just, I think you're referring to like death by overdose, but it's not just death by overdose.

1:04:33It's like, it blows up your life so mightily and affects your overall health so terribly. Death, it doesn't have to be from an OD. No, because you typically end up on the street. You end up on the street because you start losing your work, you lose your family, you lose everything, and you go to the street and you start shooting drugs because it's more effective and it's cheaper. And yes, then you get very, very sick and you don't care. See, the disease of addiction is a disease of motivation. The usual motivational priorities get usurped by one overwhelming priority that takes over everything else, which is get drugs.

1:05:11And that is now a chronic state. Now, it reduces the longer you've been sober, but it's always there waiting for you. It's always there as a priority. It's always affecting your thinking. It's always affecting your judgment, which is why you have to every day reflect with a sober person. Am I thinking this right? Is this okay? You know, are you, oh, that's my disease? Okay, okay, thank you. Let me not pay so much attention to that and do my sobriety work. And Hayden, in her case, she had been treated a few times. She was first victimized by the thing I see all the time with celebrities, which is they do short-term treatment.

1:05:47They return to work. You can't do that. Returning to work prematurely is the number one reason that celebrities relapse. They make money from people. They want them back. They enjoy their work. They're gratified by their work. They make money from it. They want to go back. And it's always, oh, we'll get a sober coach. We'll do this. There are no shortcuts. Well, she found that out. Then she went to eight months of treatment in an excellent facility and had some sustained sobriety and then went back out. And you have to ask yourself, why do addicts go back out? Well, if they're in the program and doing well, there's a numero uno reason.

1:06:23Well, the numero uno reason the medical system takes them out. That does it. But number two is relation. What do you mean out? Takes them back out. A doctor gives them some painkillers and now they're on. Once they're exposed, their thinking gets screwed up again. They start running. They start going into their disease. But the other thing is relationships. Relationships take people out. I'm using that terminology again all the time. The stress of relationship, they get involved with other addicts, their priority of their recovery diminish. And that's kind of what I hear the mom saying. Now, I don't want to blame anybody.

1:06:58I don't know what their relationship was like. But just playing the odds, that is one of the number one reasons that people in good or longer term sobriety get taken down. I mean, what we know from Hayden's own memoir is that the relationship with her mother was not good. She claims that she had asked her mother to just be a mother and not be her manager anymore. And the mother said, you owe me. The mother denied that. That may or may not have happened. The mother's statement. Again, in addiction, who knows? You know, it's dissembling, obfuscating, distorting. That's all part of the game. But there is another.

1:07:34Yes. But just take one look at this mother and you're going to have questions about her, too. Honestly, like this. This is not somebody whose word I would put any any stock in whatsoever. Here she is. Let me let me see. Yeah. No, I don't want to play 18. I want to play 19 because here she's saying something actually which I could I could agree with her. Is it is it? Yeah. in 19 she's talking about the abusive boyfriend and i think she's actually making good points but you can see this woman is something's been a long time she's been thriving in my opinion go ahead 19 one year ago her mom says she went to stay with hayden to help her she says hayden wanted out of her relationship with brian she knew that brian was toxic she knew she had to get him out of her life but things took a turn after about six weeks she noticed Hayden pulling away, so she went back to her home in Florida.

1:08:29What made you leave? What happened between the two of you? When I got the phone call from her saying,

1:08:39I'm going to be with the person I love. And I said, I just lost it. I lost it. I could not believe that she had gone that far back, that he had been successful in reeling her back in with all of the things he had done to her. Vogel says Hayden was seeing Hickerson again. She gave Hayden an ultimatum. She says on the advice of her therapist, she told Hayden she couldn't talk to her if Brian was part of her life. And that was the beginning of their estrangement. I needed it. I needed to have that pocket of time. Of course, I thought it was going to be a pocket of time. I did not by any stretch of the imagination think that this was going to happen to Hayden.

1:09:25Okay. So putting her other issues aside again, I actually believe that piece of her testimonial. I believe she was worried about her daughter's presence with this known abuser of Hayden. Um, and that, and I believe she probably was told maybe disassociate as a way of cajole pulling Hayden into not going back with her abuser. You, one of the, this is a very challenging and sometimes controversial sort of thing I'm going to say, which is that you have to leave with love sometimes when people are engaged in destructive behaviors, whether it's addiction or addiction to relationships, whatever, these are all kind of addictive behaviors.

1:10:04And what she did, I'm sure the therapist would say to do that. Unfortunately, it's dangerous. It's dangerous. And so you drive her into the arms, not even that so much is that maybe the only lifeline she had was her mom and that she was the one watching and could could have you worry about withdrawing from it's technically the right thing to do because you love people to death. That's that's sort of the the codependency saying. But you have to you have to when you leave, it has to be managed very carefully and only when the risk is worth it, when there's no other alternative. And I don't know, I feel terrible for the whole situation.

1:10:44It was just awful. Well, there's some more facts emerging about the boyfriend and so on. The New York Times did an in-depth report Sunday reporting that, first of all, Hayden Penetier had private security to keep Brian Hickerson away from her during the book tour, which was in May. May. We're not talking about ancient history. So she was so concerned about him and his behavior just a few months ago that she was telling the bookstores where she was appearing to promote the book, do not let in a man named Brian Hickerson. Obviously, reports the Times, and we all know now that they eventually resumed their tumultuous on and off relationship.

1:11:25But during that book tour, she had private security who was under strict instructions not to let him anywhere near her. She would wall herself off from family when she was with Hickerson, reports the Times, writing, Mr. Hickerson was a persistent source of conflict in the final year of a life weighed down by grief, addiction, agoraphobia, and physical pain that sometimes made it difficult for Ms. Panettiere to walk. You're familiar with all these dynamics, Dr. Drew. She had an injury on the set where she was thrown bizarrely from a zebra a couple of years ago, and apparently it crushed a couple of her vertebrae and gave her serious ongoing back pain that can easily trigger an opiate addiction in an industry like Hollywood.

1:12:10And then you've got the abusive boyfriend and, you know, that's how we got to where we got. No, no medical system. Take you out. I'm not saying she should not have received pain medication. I'm saying it should have been administered at the hands of somebody who understands pain and addiction. And there's a way to do that. And I'm not saying she shouldn't get the opiate. she should get, even if she needed primary mu short acting opiates, again, carefully manage and understanding that her addiction would be triggered and have to be managed as a result. So there it is, you know, we have two, number one and number two things that really harm people in addiction.

1:12:46It's, you know, it's also brings up the topic of behavioral addictions to, you know, love addiction, sex addiction, porn addiction, gambling addiction, these things these days, because of the crack pipe that we hold in our hands all the time, are really taking people down. holding up his phone wildly i'm holding my phone up yeah um the uh the the listing of what she was going through right grief because her younger brother had died a couple years ago he also what had a substance abuse problem though is said to have died of congenital heart defects at age 28 which i'm sure were not helped by his substance abuse problem um addiction we covered with her, physical pain we covered, and agoraphobia.

1:13:28Can you speak to this? Because in my experience, it is not unusual to find somebody with an addiction problem who's got agoraphobia or is a hoarder or has some other issue on the mental health scale. I don't know if it's caused by addiction, if the mental health stuff causes the addiction and the other stuff but can you speak to that the agoraphobia jumped out well it it it much like the pain oftentimes the drugs that they're doing make all their psychiatric symptoms pain oh pain gets worse on opiates that's just the way it is it causes it causes an intensification of pain then you get headaches because you're in withdrawal then you get low back pain because you're in withdrawal and you just escalate the pain and then you end up on benzodiazepines at night for sleep because you're taking all these opiates and trying to get off those that's where the agor agoraphobia and anxiety and panic kicked in and maybe she hadn't had enough time off those drugs to really let that subside then what we more commonly see or most commonly see i would say is the concomitant childhood trauma right childhood trauma is the rocket fuel for addiction none of this stuff is causational the cause is that it's genetic uh and you either have the gene or you don't, but there are these influences that activate the gene and childhood trauma would have to be number one.

1:14:49And in her case, you know, it brings up the whole topic of childhood stars. And there's the interesting things people talk about with that. You know, Danny Bonaduce was the first to sort of educate me that more often than not, something's up with the parents. And if your parents were good, you end up with Ron Howard. If they weren't good, you end up with Danny Bonaducemi is however he would say it. But there's another issue I have found on top of that, which is that they get into the children. First of all, they're in an adult world with adults all the time taking on adult responsibility. That's traumatic for a child, number one.

1:15:24Not massively traumatic, but traumatic. Number two, they may have fractured families that they have come from, and they get into these productions where it's a family unit. It forms a family, sometimes for multiple seasons. And what no one prepares the child for is that, let's say, after six seasons where this is your dad and you feel really good about him and you feel like he's not, I understand he's not my dad, but I feel very close to him and this family feels very safe for me. End of the production, everybody scatters to the wind and they never see each other again. That is profoundly abandoning for these children.

1:15:57And a lot of them bring that up specifically. Gosh, that makes perfect sense. You're asking so much of these children to manage these adult settings. And in case after case, we're seeing potential child sexual abuse. You know, we just on this morning on our morning podcast, AM Update, we reported on this young actress who was on a Disney, in a Disney, I think, made for TV movie. And she's now come out under this California law that allows you to bring these claims up to age 40, saying she was sexually assaulted by an adult male person on the set. She doesn't say exactly who it was. It appears she and he may have entered into a smaller settlement back in 2015, but now she's going after Disney.

1:16:44But I'm sure that's a lifetime sentence she's been given. Chattering. And you say, okay, if you have good parents, you wind up Ron Howard. Just a little digression here. Does Northwest have good parents? Kanye, or just Ye now, and Kim Kardashian? because she is on the cover of this British quarterly magazine right now with false teeth, like a grill situation, blue hair, all these facial piercings. Look at this. Drew, she is almost exactly the same age as my Thatcher, who was born in July of 13. She was born in June of 13. So I know this age very, very well. He is a sweet little boy. This girl, I mean, would you look at this?

1:17:40And she's launching an album and she's going to be performing concerts. And they are rushing to try to make her a star without, it doesn't appear, any reflection, especially by the Kardashians, on the significant downside of putting your child on camera for her childhood. It makes you worry. and she has bipolar in her genetic heritage, right? And she has parents that have not been available, let's say. I don't know. It doesn't look like they're around all the time. And that can set you up for trouble. And then we're going to go put her out in the public. And, you know, it's another issue that I really was feeling this morning.

1:18:25That being public, back when I started doing radio and television, it was to help. and there was joy and people appreciated the help and they participated. There was a communal feeling. Now, if you're public, it feels really, really dangerous now. And so putting a child into it, it's just, oh, I don't know if we're going to get through this time or it's going to get worse. It's back to the guillotines we talked about last hour. They are out. And hey, everybody that puts somebody on the guillotine, realize history is a clear teacher on this. Everybody ends up on the guillotines eventually if you keep bringing them out.

1:19:04That's always the case in history. She released her debut album at 12. She's already performed on stage with Kanye. These two have manipulated it such that she has gotten other onstage gigs. The name of this magazine is dazed. And most of the comments, thankfully, are not encouraging. People recognize this is wrong. Many people saying, I'm out. I'm unsubscribing. This is very odd. This is a baby, wrote someone. I've just unfollowed after years. What even is this magazine anymore? I'm uncomfortable seeing this. She writes about how she doesn't want to... She said, everyone's in love with boys vaping and doing all kinds of bad stuff.

1:19:49All I want is blue hair and piercings. But then she talks about how I really want to get my bridge pierced. My bridge, but I'm not allowed yet. The bridge, she means right here. There's a picture of it my producers gave me. Like right here between the eyes, the part that your nose, that your eyeglasses would rest on. My God. Of course, thank God at least Kim Kardashian knows this is not a good idea. She told people that, or people reported that she recently debuted a different type of art, piercings on her thighs. I mean, my son is riding his bike, playing tennis and playing something called bucket golf with his buddies in the backyard.

1:20:32This is bizarre. This is a strange choice. And let me just show you one other thing. This is her music video, okay? I'm going to tell you what the words are here. Asshite is the name. I ain't nobody fina save me fina I don't know how to read this fina ain't nobody fina save me I and it's driving me crazy why can't I escape because they chase me they chase me just love me everyone betrays me yeah and I'm seeing blood daily what and it's driving me crazy yeah can't escape because they chase me just love me everyone everyone betrays me watch oh boy

1:21:16do you want to take that one dr drew i mean if that's how she's feeling this isn't gonna go well And one of the things that people do when they're feeling a lot of aggression is they'll turn it on themselves. Cut, pierce, stuff like that. I'm trying to avoid Megan becoming the old guy on the porch. Oh, these kids today, I don't know. I'm trying not to just take it by appearances and try to understand what's up here. The only exposure I've had to her was a video she posted where she was yelling at her mom because her mom knocked her monthly allowance down, thousands of dollars, which already was odd.

1:22:09Did you see that one? That was disturbing. Really calling her mom names, horrible names. I didn't see that. I saw there was some report that Kanye was going to knock down the 10 grand he gives her a month. I don't know. It was unconfirmed. But he was allegedly going to do that because he didn't like the direction she was going in unconfirmed again. But look, those two are much more interested in being on camera and working on their careers such as they are than I think in actual parenting. I'm sure she'd love for her daughter to be a star. In Kim Kardashian's defense, she came by it honestly. That's what her mom taught her when she got that.

1:22:47That whole sex tape was reportedly orchestrated by the mother. She wanted her daughter's sex act on the Internet, according to the man who's performing in it. They deny that. But, you know, speaking of generational trauma, that's actual generational trauma. Thankfully, she was not a child. But, you know, when we were doing Loveline back in the day, every third or every fifth call was about childhood sexual abuse. It was so common back in the day. And realize that we went through a pandemic of this stuff. It's not normal. It does not happen throughout history. We were not just talking about it more.

1:23:28It was about a 20-year period where it was in the heels of the sexual revolution, which anything goes, that this all got unleashed, and then it went underground. And the real problem is that the sad part trying to manage philosophically is a certain percentage of these kids then became perpetrators when they became adults. And when perpetrators like that perpetrate, it's not a digital thing. It's not one time. It's exponential. to multiple orders of magnitude. And so that's why this thing spread so much. And we had a, people forget in the late 90s, early 2000, we had a pandemic of child-on-child sexual abuse because of some of this stuff.

1:24:08You know, we are constantly making fun of, it's called The Cut. It's an offshoot of New York Magazine. And they do more cultural things. And it's a very far left publication, but sometimes amusing. And actually right now, they have a very interesting piece in there. about a little girl who, back in 2015, was only four. She was going to kindergarten in West Virginia, and the mandatory reporters there, a.k.a. her teachers, saw that this girl was being physically abused. They could tell. And as it turns out, they suspected sexual abuse as well. And indeed, it was the case. She was being. And unfortunately, when these mandatory reporters began reporting, Division of Child and Family Services, you've got to look into this girl's case.

1:25:01The parents kept denying it and then ultimately pulled her from the school system and were allowed to just say, oh, we're homeschooling her. We're going to homeschool her. Notwithstanding the fact that there were abuse investigations underway inside the home that were both physical, like a broken femur, and sexual, explicit and awful, just as awful as you can imagine. and you know what? She died. She died as a child because state after state apparently allows this. It's not just West Virginia. It's not a rip on homeschooling. Homeschooling can be absolutely wonderful and in many cases far superior to brick and mortar schools.

1:25:39However, when there's an active, you know, a reporting situation where the mandatory reporters in the school have said the parents are hurting this child, you should not be allowed to homeschool until there's been a favorable resolution for you. Right. So many dumb laws. so many dumb regulations rate these outcomes and not to mention the deficiencies in social services and their ability to do anything but you look no further to homelessness by the way i went to a i have a documentary out on homelessness uh called beyond homelessness and it's um san francisco is down 25 because guess what they're doing they're treating the drug addicts on the street and they're putting them in places where they're accountable have to find work have to stay there for a long period of time, have to do this, do 12 step work.

1:26:23And guess what? Everyone's getting well and everyone is thriving. Oh, you mean the reversal of the open air drug markets and the providing of the needles that they were doing? If those, by the way, needle exchange was supposed to be a needle exchange, not needle handout, number one. And number two, if I were managing, let's say those open air regions where these sick people are located, which is essentially a psychiatric hospital without walls. If I was managing that and six people were dying a day, like they are on the streets of Los Angeles, I would not only be guilty about practice, I would go to prison, but unfortunately doctors and nurses are not allowed to help these people.

1:27:02They only interface with social workers who are not trained to do this. It's like asking them to like asking a physical therapist to do orthopedic surgery. They're wonderfully trained. They're not trained for people that are this ill psychiatrically. And back to the regulations and the stupid laws, if we don't reestablish something called gravely disabled, which was the reason you could help people throughout the last 250 years of this country, if somebody is so disabled that they lie down on the sidewalk and stay there, we need to help you. There's something wrong. You might already own a firearm, but what if you could start with less lethal methods to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of pulling the trigger?

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1:31:32I did want to get back. My offshoot into the Northwest situation was from the Hayden situation. And I did want to talk a bit about the abusive boyfriend. because you tell me, you know, what specifically, was it the drugs? Would you guess that made her go back to this guy that she was getting mandated bodily protection from in May? Because here's what now, a couple things that are breaking about him, Brian Hickerson. He had, according to Lindsay, to Hayden's mom, he had pawned Hayden's belongings. She said that she was shocked to find that Brian Hickerson, who filed for bankruptcy in 2022, had pawned some of Hayden's belongings, including a vintage guitar.

1:32:20The mother also claimed that Hayden Penetier was shocked when she found out that her on-again, off-again boyfriend had some of her possessions in his storage unit. So obviously the implication is that he had stolen them from her. And then on top of that, it was very interesting. This is page six doing the reporting there. Hold on a second. Where is it? Because the report was also that, oh, maybe this is the New York Times. Yeah, it was the New York Times in that lengthy piece on Sunday, reported that he, at some point, had been acting as Hayden's paid executive assistant. Of course. Further entangling the two.

1:33:01His LinkedIn profile describes him as an executive assistant for a high-profile confidential client. And so he appears to have gone on her payroll. All of this, notwithstanding the fact that he beat her repeatedly. Oh, but he took domestic violence classes. So, you know, I guess problem allegedly solved. Well done here. One more thing. Some classes took care of it. Some reassignment. You know, it's like it all to me sounds like, you know, the communist, you know, sort of education camps. Yeah, great. Well done. No, it's like at Fox News. They made everybody take sexual harassment training. People went there for ideas.

1:33:44These classes are a joke. How do these courts think that that's going to change anything? I don't know. What would you mandate to a domestic abuser if you actually wanted him to break a pattern? I remember I was talking to a guy who once pushed a woman through a door and he was a good kid. And he thought, my God, something is wrong. I need help. I'm going in a direction. There's something wrong. And I was talking to him and he said, you know, he's had successful treatment. He had all kinds of trauma stuff and therapy and relational, you know, stuff. Multiple, multiple kinds of therapeutics. And I said, well, how long are you working with this?

1:34:21Because, you know, five years. and I feel like I'm a little better now. And I thought, oh my God, that's a kid that threw somebody through a door. Imagine these people that are so abusive and repetitive push people through this cycle of abuse. And I'm going to have to explain what the cycle of abuse is so people know what it is. My treatment is you separate these people and you get mom into an environment or get the woman into an environment where she can start to look at why she's addicted and why she can't get out of this. Cult of two. I call it a cult of two. The way it works is, oh no, no, I love you so much.

1:34:53I love you so much. Then the jealousy and then the irritability and then the woman's walking on eggshells. Then he's triggered. He becomes violent. Then at the end of the violence, it's because I love you so much. And they have this idealized reuniting and people fall for that, both men and women. It's because I love you so much that I'm so emotional. I can't control myself because my love for you is so amazing. This is BS, everybody. This is nonsense. This is the cycle of abuse, but this is how people get into this cult of two, this cycle where they have trouble pulling themselves out. Now, if they were also using buddies, which I don't know, maybe they're both doing drugs together, that adds to the addictive.

1:35:34Certainly looks that way. That adds the addictive sticky quality to the relationship. And as I said, this is how it takes them out. If he wasn't using with her, why was he asleep at 150 in the afternoon two Sundays ago when they found her, when the brother came over and found them both passed out. He was allegedly next to her in the pullout sofa bed and she was dead. I mean, I think if you're asleep at two in the afternoon next to a dead person, you probably have your own issues. And they had Narcan on them in the apartment, which was an Airbnb. So it wasn't even like, I think the place that he normally lives.

1:36:09So he's clearly traveling with it. And he reportedly, Brian, the boyfriend, and tried to administer it to her unsuccessfully. Here, listen to him talking about domestic violence and how he just needed some education, Drew. My biggest thing about domestic violence is I don't think it is taught early enough in life. Never in my life did I ever get taught what domestic violence was, right? maybe if I did at an early age maybe I wouldn't have done what I did we don't know but it's one of those things you think about so all right yeah you got the training to me it's you don't get it's not about getting taught about dv it's about anger management you know emotional regulation communication what say you years years of work and not just, oh, that's what that is.

1:37:14Okay, we're done here. It's like saying, it's literally like saying, you know, somebody has schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. And it's like, do you come to, we're teaching you what this thing is you have. Oh, okay. We'll see you later. No, then you treat it. The education is to get people to the point where they can acknowledge that they need treatment, that this is not okay, that it's pathological, it's dangerous. And he, something is up there. I don't know what's going on with him, but it would require a lot. And I bet, I just wonder if alcohol is involved because in, and by the way, he also had that flavor of, oh, I was exposed to domestic violence my whole life.

1:37:53I just thought it was okay. I, which does happen to people. I mean, they, but that is not thinking that he didn't know his domestic violence when he was punching her in the face. I'm pretty sure he knew. I would agree with you, but if he saw it in childhood, again, giving it a name doesn't mean you're not going to repeat that exactly what you were exposed to in childhood the reports of you know him attacking her continue to come out we continue to learn more this is um a neighbor uh this is not 26 and it's uh it was on inside edition last week listen to this this is a neighbor of hayden's hayden pennettier's neighbor is making shocking allegations about the troubled star's relationship with her boyfriend.

1:38:39She was always such a bright light when she was by herself. When she was with Brian, she was so subdued and seemed almost like a different person. Mia Terrazas says she called 911 a half a dozen times to report disturbances in Hayden's apartment in West Hollywood. Was there ever any instances where you thought there could be domestic violence going on? Oh, absolutely. I saw her leaving on a gurney. Brian was right next to her and I asked her if she was okay. And it looked to me that she, you know, had suffered some type of trauma that, you know, looked to be battering. And it was clear she was terrified.

1:39:21Brian Hickerson was jailed for 45 days in 2021 for punching Hayden with his closed fist in the face and was banned from the apartment complex where Hayden lived. This image of Hickerson was posted on the property. Warning to all residents, if he is seen anywhere on this property, please call 911 immediately. So I'm needing a bath. Consistent with what she was doing at the book signings. I'm needing a bath. I feel so bad for all these topics we're getting into. This is like really tough material. But, you know, in addition to the stickiness of the cycle of abuse and the cult of two that people get into, the women particularly, their personal resources and their sense of themselves get severely eroded in relationships like this.

1:40:10They really don't have the capacity to pull themselves out of it. They just keep going, sinking deeper and deeper. And then, again, if you're using substances on top of that, that's how they try to manage it. And, of course, that only makes things worse. So it sounds like, Drew, you would have said, like if Hayden had come to you and said, how about I write a memoir and then I go on a book tour? You know, I'm clean and sober now. I go on a book tour and I'm going to go on all these podcasts and all these TV shows to promote it and talk about all my trauma. You might have said to her too soon. I might have said too soon.

1:40:45If it had been less than two years of sobriety, I would have definitely said too soon. And then I would have said, what does your therapist say? What does your psychiatrist say? What does your sponsor say? Are we all in agreement that this is a good idea? If anyone dissents, you're going to wait it out until everyone decides this is okay for you. But there I... Because there was a report that while she was out promoting her book, she was still drinking and still doing drugs, that she tried to order a boatload of alcohol and whippets to the hotel room and the security caught it. And notwithstanding the fact, you know, she was out there saying, I'm sober.

1:41:20Back in July of 2022, she was saying, I'm clean and sober. Here she is in 2022, SOP 25. How are you today? I'm good. It's an everyday battle. It really is. I'm grateful to say that I'm sober today. Sober and connecting on a whole new level with her seven-year-old daughter, Kaya. I can only imagine one of the things you're most grateful for is your beautiful little girl. That she is. She's my favorite little person. But she would wind up agreeing to give the father custody and so on. The downward spiral continued to the point where now, Drew, she reunites with this abuser. He's next to her in this bed when she dies.

1:42:08Obviously, drugs were involved. I mean, we'll wait for the toxicology, but it seems clear. And now Rob Shooter is reporting that sources are telling him law enforcement has seized the cameras around the Greenville, South Carolina apartment where she was found dead and where that boyfriend was living. So we always say that she may have been sober there. And I think that's after her long, long period of treatment, which was excellent. But back to work too soon. That's exactly what happens to everybody. You know, you don't only didn't do that. Robert Downey Jr. didn't do that. his last effort at sobriety, he contemplated that he'd never work again and did his work for years and then kind of tiptoed back under the supervision of his sober team.

1:42:52And there you go. That's how you do it. You don't run out and do a book tour. But the other thing we always say about these relationships and particularly, I'm assuming he's drinking or whatever, or maybe he was sober at the time too, but two people early in sobriety often get together. And what we say is you think you're reaching for a life preserver, but that's actually you're grabbing an anvil and it's going to take you down. And it always does. You know, speaking of sobriety, Brad Pitt's in the news virtually every day because he has six children. And so far, by my count, four out of the six, the latest being his 18-year-old daughter, Vivian, have petitioned to have his name removed from their last name.

1:43:40So they want to go by just Jolie, not Jolie Pitt anymore. And it's not just semantic. It's clear they want nothing to do with him. There was an infamous domestic abuse incident involving Pitt and Jolie on an airplane. All the children were reportedly present. She tried to get the FBI involved. She filed the police report. They got divorced right after. He said to have hit her or hurt her physically, as well as verbally abusing his children and Angelina on board that plane. I believe he's denied the specific charges there, but he did declare that he was an alcoholic shortly thereafter. They got a divorce.

1:44:14And now he sits down for a long interview. I think it was with Esquire two weeks ago and says he's drinking again. he's drinking again, but he can handle it. He it's going to be like more than one, but it's not going to be so many that he gets drunk. You tell me whether that's a thing. Watch what happens. Everybody just, just watch it. It's, it's only a minute. The clock is ticking on the progression. It's a progressive illness. It progresses. And if you've been progressed already, you take a period of time off and you try to start again. You essentially very quickly get back where you left off.

1:44:49And for some people, it's instant. But for other people, it takes a few years, but they'll get there. I know cannabis was a big thing for him. So that'll get involved as well. As far as him being estranged from his kids, you know, he's talked about the effect the addiction has had on his family life. And then he leaves. And I'm going to guess that Angelina Jolie has abandonment stuff. She doesn't feel good about somebody leaving. And she who knows what her role is and the kids not wanting him involved in their life at all. We don't know. Yes. I'm sure there has been manipulation on her part, you know, in not forget the abuse.

1:45:27There's no excuse for that, but not owning her part in the breakdown of the marriage, which does take two to keep healthy and to ruin. Yeah. If you were doing it a healthy way, you'd say, listen, this is your father. Let's figure out how to maintain a relationship. Maybe you want to limit the, whatever, but you to say that person needs to be out of your life forever. That's rough for kids. That's very difficult. Yeah. Right? Judge Judy, she always used to say, you're supposed to love your kids more than you hate your ex. And these two definitely are not living that. So it's sad. Yet another child has petitioned successfully to have Pitt removed from her name.

1:46:00That's four out of the six. And we'll see what happens with the other two. Dr. Drew, it's wonderful to see you. Gosh, we had a lot that we needed to go over with you. Thank you for coming and shedding some expertise and light on you. I always love talking to you. You've really expanded my understanding of some of these things. And although I feel horrible and I still feel like it's a dangerous world out there. Thank you for having this conversation with me. Could be worse. Could be talking politics. Yeah, it'd be worse. Okay. See you soon. You too. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

1:46:30No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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