Former Attorney General Holder Discusses Tuesday’s Election

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0:56Ben Meiselas:momentum. People still absolutely need to show up, but this is an important moment showing how to fight back. Let me show you earlier today. Here we have a governor Newsom talking about what's going on in the Trump MAGA world. Now these people are not screwing around. They're surgical at how they want to take apart our democracy. Here play this clip. He had full stop. That's why he made the call to Greg Abbott saying he's entitled to five seats. That's why he sent J.D. Vance to Indiana. That's why he moved them to make the decision they did in Missouri. That's why they moved in North Carolina.

1:30Ben Meiselas:These guys are not screwing around. But I'll end on this. They did not expect California. They did not expect all of you. They thought we were going to write an op-ed, have a candlelight visual, maybe do a rally. They poked the bear and the bear is poking back. And we're going to get out there and win and send a powerful message not only to the people of this state of California, but the people all over the United States of America by going out in record numbers. Yes. on 50. Thank you guys. Powerful words there by Governor Newsom. Earlier in the speech, he talked about how Donald Trump is just weakness masquerading as strength.

2:18Ben Meiselas:Let's play it. It's great to be back here. And I'll just conclude this. Jen said it. Other speakers said it. Donald Trump is nothing more than weakness masquerading as strength. Why else do you need to make a phone call to Greg Abbott in the middle of the midterm redistricting? Unless you're weak. You saw today Donald Trump one-upped himself. Historic president. Historically unpopular president. The most unpopular since his first term. he's underwater in every key category he knows he's going to lose the midterm elections period full stop that's why he made the call to greg abbott saying he's entitled to five seats that's why he sent jady vance to indiana that's why he moved them to make the decision they did in missouri that's why they moved in north carolina these guys are not screwing around I want to bring in former United States Attorney General Eric Holder, who held that position from 2009 to 2015, the 82nd in the United States history.

3:33Ben Meiselas:Great to see you, Mr. Holder. I want to ask you about what you just saw right there and Prop 50 in general. It's right here, Tuesday's Election Day. I know you've been a big supporter of Prop 50. How big are the stakes here? The stakes are just enormous. And I think I really applaud Governor Newsom and all the people in California who had the guts and the foresight to put this before the people of California in response to that which Republicans have tried to do, have done, I guess, in Texas and in other states as well. This is all about power. This is about the acquisition and the maintenance of power, even illegitimately gained power.

4:13And I think the point that the governor made is really an important one. This is also a sign of weakness. If Republicans had a record that they could run on, if they were not afraid of losing the House of Representatives because of the bad things that they've done, the bad, beautiful bill that they put together, the way in which they're conducting these immigration raids, these attacks on universities, attacks on the media, if they were not afraid of their record, they wouldn't do the kinds of things that they're doing now, which is to try to rig the 2026 midterms.

4:44Ben Meiselas:And this has been part of a broader plan I think we have seen from MAGA and then before that kind of the right wing in general to attack the Voting Rights Act, erode things like preclearance and things that used to uphold the fairness of districts, the Citizens United decision and all of that. So where do you think this all fits into kind of what the plan is, because one of the things that Governor Newsom has said is that if you kind of take this to the logical conclusion of what Trump wants to do, he basically wants our system to look like what you have in Russia or you have in authoritarian states where it's election in name only, but he claims, ah, I won 93%.

5:26Ben Meiselas:I mean, look at it, everybody. What do you make of the broader context of what's taken place? Yeah, this is all about power. That's the through line, whether it's doing gerrymandering mid cycle, whether it's, you know, trying to have a compliant Congress, whether it's a supine Supreme Court, it's all about power. That's the thing that explains everything that they are doing. And it's what authoritarians do. They try to accumulate as much power as they can. You know, they have elections in Russia, and Putin, as you said gets, you know, 95, 93 % of the vote, you know, we'll continue to have elections here in the United States.

6:06The question is whether or not the elections that we have here will be meaningful ones, whether the people will actually get the opportunity to express their views on the policy direction of the nation. And so again, it's all about power, whether it's, you know, gerrymandering, weakening the Voting Rights Act to take power away from people who the people in power now think are not supportive of them. It's all about the acquisition and the use of power. And that's one thing that we on the progressive side, on the Democratic side, have got to get used to. It's not a bad thing for us to say that we want to acquire and use power.

6:43Doesn't mean we're going to use it in the same way that Republicans and conservatives had in the negative way that they have done it. But Roosevelt wasn't afraid of acquiring and using power. Johnson wasn't afraid of acquiring and using power. That's what we have to be about. And so fighting back the way in which Governor Newsom has folks in California by putting together Prop 50 is exactly what we have to do. We've got to fight for this.

7:06Ben Meiselas:What do you make of Trump's statements that he would be sending monitors into California who were just kind of Trump sycophants and that this is how they're using the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division, you know, which once had this real important task. And now it seems to be a perversion of what it was supposed to be used for to be there to intimidate people at the ballot box more than actually help people's civil rights. No, that's exactly right. I mean, the Justice Department has the power to send out these monitors. And traditionally, under Republican as well as Democratic attorneys general, you'd send out monitors to places where you were concerned about compliance with the Voting Rights Act, had some basis to believe there might have been some issues around voting procedures.

7:54They're not sending monitors to California, and this particular monitor to California, for any of those concerns. They're trying to send that person out there to somehow potentially intimidate people, to somehow call into question what I think is going to be a victory by the proponents of Proposition 50. They're just trying to lay a predicate for the ways in which they'll try to challenge the validity of the vote coming out of California.

8:21Ben Meiselas:I would be remiss if I didn't ask you while you hear about these ways that you talk about Trump trying to acquire power at all costs. I mean, as the former attorney general, I have to imagine what goes through your mind when you see Donald Trump going on social media and sending messages, which may have been intended to be direct messages to his attorney general, Pam Bondi and says, Pam, here's what I need you to do for me. Go after this person, that person, and this person immediately. You're making me look weak by not going after them. And then shortly thereafter, there are prosecutions after, by the way, like Republican United States attorneys in Virginia leave the office.

9:03Ben Meiselas:And then you have somebody who's like a former insurance lawyer and Lindsey Allegan, who's never been a prosecutor before going into a grand jury room all alone. Who the heck knows what she even told that grand jury? I know a federal judge wants to know. But like, what's your perspective when you hear about like, can you see that going on compared to what's supposed to take place? Well, there's a whole litany of things that we ought to be concerned about with regard to what this administration is doing. But I got to say, chief among them should be the way in which they politicize the Justice Department.

9:37The Justice Department has enormous amounts of power. The Justice Department has the ability to put people in jail, to separate people from their property. And if you politicize the Justice Department, if you weaponize the Justice Department to go after the perceived enemies of the president, and these are people who just simply have policy differences with the president, that is a frightening thing. That goes to the core against the rule of law. It's the thing that I think has distinguished the United States from other nations around the world. It's a direct attack on the rule of law and is something that has to be opposed in every conceivable way.

10:13I don't think that Jim Comey stands any chance, any chance of being convicted. I'd be surprised if the case is not decided even before it gets to court. Certainly a jury I don't think will ever convict him. I think the same thing is true of Letitia James. But to have a former insurance lawyer who has never been a criminal prosecutor be the one who presents a case to a grand jury simply at the call, at the whim of the president of the United States is extremely, extremely dangerous.

10:46Ben Meiselas:You know, and we obviously focus a lot on the high profile prosecutions, but what I think goes underreported is how Trump's power grab and his behavior and corruption just affects prosecutions in general throughout the country. Prosecutions of drug dealers, human trafficking, the types of stuff that the DOJ and offices across the country do every day where you have just a lot of great prosecutors being pushed out of the office and leaving and not knowing how to act and having their behavior and their normal prosecutorial efforts kind of chilled. And then Trump's attack on the FBI and their investigations with top FBI agents getting fired and pushed out.

11:30Ben Meiselas:Another 27-year veteran just got pushed out for like no reason because Kash Patel got caught using a private jet to pick up his girlfriend. So he just fired a random 27-year veteran. Talk to us about that because I think that doesn't get enough attention, the impact this is having on the offices across this country. No, that's an extremely important point. As they have fired people in various components at the FBI and at the Justice Department, you weaken the ability of the Justice Department and the FBI to do the very important things that matter to the American people. Counterintelligence, national security, the fight against public corruption, to make sure that bribery statutes are in fact validated and enforced.

12:21You take away from those components, from DOJ and from the FBI, these experienced people, and you leave in place those people who are potentially less experienced and potentially politically motivated. And that puts the nation at risk. It puts our economy at risk. It puts our security at risk. It puts us at risk with regard to how we are perceived by and treated by other nations. And so, you know, all of these dismissals might have political motivation behind them, but they have unbelievably important national impacts.

12:57Ben Meiselas:You mentioned earlier in the interview the supine Supreme Court, and what we've seen them do under the auspices of making procedural decisions is using the so-called shadow docket to stay district court decisions where the district court is usually making injunctions to stop Trump's unlawful behavior. The Supreme Court will sweep in and they'll say, we're just going to stay with the district court did pending full adjudication, which for all purposes moots the issue before it ever gets to the Supreme Court, because a lot of this stuff is life or death stuff that these federal district courts. By the way, federal district court judges appointed by Trump and George W.

13:36Ben Meiselas:Bush and Reagan and George H.W. Bush and Obama and Biden. But across the board, it seems the federal district court judges and to a larger extent or to some extent to the Court of Appeals, the circuit court judges are doing the right thing usually. But then you're seeing the Supreme Court issue the shadow docket rulings and people are like, what is this? We've never even seen the shadow docket. And he seems to be substantive ruling masquerading as shadow docket rules. What do you make of that? No, the point that you make there is an extremely important one. The courts have generally held, if you look at what's happening at the district court level, at the court of appeals level, doesn't matter who the president was who appointed the judge.

14:17The judges have ruled, I think, courageously and correctly. It's only when you get to the Supreme Court that you see these problems start to arise. And it's the use of this overuse of the shadow docket. You know, by taking these cases and deciding them, essentially deciding them without hearing any oral argument, without any adequate briefing, you know, deciding these really important matters in that way challenges the legitimacy of the court and does an untold amount of damage to the fabric, legal fabric of this nation. I think, you know, the reality is, and it pains me to say this, I think the Supreme Court is a broken institution.

14:57And it's something that has to be, I think, a part of the national conversation in 26 and in 28. What are we going to do about the Supreme Court? And I think that we have to think about, again, talking about the acquisition and the use of power. If there is a democratic trifecta in 2028, and I think the possibility of that is pretty good, But Supreme Court reform is something that has to be considered. Term limits, I think, at a minimum, potentially expanding the court is something I think that also should be considered. We cannot leave in place without a discussion, at least, and I think without substantive reforms being put in place, this Supreme Court as it is presently constituted.

15:40Ben Meiselas:Because one of the things I think we've seen here is, you know, the Constitution, kind of like a contract had embedded within it, like an implied good faith dealing kind of clause, which is the contract's not an expansive document. When I teach collective bargaining agreements at USC law school, I go, could you imagine this collective bargaining agreement just so much, thousands of pages more than the United States constitution? Because it was always built on just kind of good faith principles that people would follow this document. And I mean, just across the board, I think we're seeing that the good faith way of dealing with this contract with the people has been broken, which I think is why Prop 50 and other efforts like this are needed across the country right now, because people who support our constitution, I don't think we just, we can't just sit back and take it while the constitution itself is being kind of ripped apart.

16:32Ben Meiselas:So I just want to get your final message to all the people watching on kind of Prop 50 and this moment that we're in right now? Well, Prop 50, I think, is an example of where this nation needs to be in this really challenging moment. Here's the deal. There's no cavalry coming. There are no miracles that are going to happen. This is all about what the American people are going to do. Our institutions have failed us. The executive branch is in the process of failing us and has failed us. Congress has failed us. I think the Supreme Court has failed us. But the power that the American people have is substantially greater than I think we know.

17:10And Prop 50 is an example of that. People in California will have the opportunity to say, we're going to increase the potential for five seats for Democrats in California in response to what's happened in Texas. That's an example of people power. The protests that we have seen around the country, another example of people power. And those things are consequential. And so I would urge everybody to find a way to be involved in this fight. You know, Dr. King said that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. But here's the deal. It doesn't bend on its own. It only bends when people like us put our hands on that arc and pull it towards justice.

17:49And each and every one of us, as a good American citizen, has to ask ourselves, what is it that I'm going to do to pull that arc towards justice and to save our democracy? We can do this.

18:01Ben Meiselas:Former Attorney General Eric Holder, It's great to see it. There's so many more issues I want to discuss with you, but we'll leave it at that on a Prop 50 note. But we hope you'll come back. I want to discuss with you lots of other topics, the ICE raids, civil rights. But we'll save that for our next interview. I appreciate you. All right. Thanks for having me. Everybody hit subscribe. Let's get to 6 million subscribers. Want to stay plugged in? Become a subscriber to our sub stack at MidasPlus.com. You'll get daily recaps from Ron Filipkowski, ad-free episodes of our podcast, and more exclusive content only available at MidasPlus.com.