Former FCC Commissioner Wheeler on Trump Attacking Media

0:00Fire car, the censorship czar.

0:02Ben Meiselas:Fire car, the censorship czar. Fire car, the censorship czar. Did you hear those protests during the FCC open meeting this week? The protesters were saying, fire car, the censorship czar. Fire car, the censorship czar. They're referring to the current chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, Brendan Carr, who has been someone who's been trying to rip to shreds the First Amendment and someone who's been utilizing his position at the FCC to threaten and, in my opinion, extort and go after comedians, television hosts that don't say nice things about Donald Trump. or who don't do the state regime propaganda.

0:52Ben Meiselas:I want to talk about what went down at that hearing where he was protested. And I want to get the expertise of someone who I think you absolutely need to hear from, the former commissioner of the Federal Communications Commission, who was appointed by former President Obama in 2013, former Commissioner Tom Wheeler, because he has an incredible perspective. And I don't think you've ever heard in detail how the FCC should really be operating from someone who was a past commissioner. But what's important to talk about, I think, are two major developments. Number one, Commissioner Carr is going to be testifying in the coming weeks before the Senate Commerce Committee.

1:34Ben Meiselas:He was just subpoenaed. And so he will have to answer questions about the shakedown of ABC and Disney when he said, we'll do this the easy way or the hard way, like a mobster. You get rid of Jimmy Kimmel, we're going to do this the hard way. and specifically as it relates to shaking down the affiliate network owners like Nextar and Sinclair, although Sinclair probably ideologically aligns with him as well. So that's a big development. The other big development is what's being discussed at this open meeting and what is it that Brendan Carr is trying to push. I know there's so much news going on, but it's important that we focus on all of these things.

2:19Ben Meiselas:So Carr is trying to change the ownership rules that would previously have precluded consolidation by like one company to basically own all of the affiliate stations. And now what they want to do is consolidate ownership so that Trump's handpicked right wing oligarchs control all of the local stations across the country so they could all be speaking with one state regime MAGA voice. That's what we see in fascist countries. That's what we see going down here. So these modernization broadcast ownership rules are one of the main thing that the Trump regime wants to push, have his right wing oligarch friends own all of the local stations and then demand they push out Trump propaganda and claim that's in the, quote, public interest, that the public interest is the Trump state regime MAGA agenda.

3:18Ben Meiselas:a la Russia, North Korea, et cetera. So with that as background, why don't we bring in right now the former commissioner of the Federal Communications Commission under the Obama administration. He left his post in 2017 during the first Trump administration. Let's bring in Commissioner Tom Wheeler. And now I want to bring in the former chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, the 31st chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, Tom Wheeler, appointed by former President Obama in 2013, left during the first Trump administration. It's great to see you, Tom. A lot of people have questions, and I really want to get into what's going on in the FCC now, because I believe that what happened with Jimmy Kimmel was really just the first step.

4:03Ben Meiselas:There's a broader issue here with these ownership rules and with everything that's happening now, with government shutdown, with the daily chaos of what's happening in the Trump administration. I don't think people are focused a lot on these ownership rules, the consolidation behind the scenes. There's no better person to talk to about it than you. So what's going on? Great to see you. Well, Ben, it's great to be with you. And you're asking the key question because one of the interesting things that the whole Jimmy Kimmel exercise showed was the willingness of the Trump administration through FCC Chairman Brendan Carr to exert their authority to coerce broadcasters to control what people hear by controlling what the broadcasters say.

5:03And what you saw in the Jimmy Kimmel exercise was one manifestation of it. But what's coming next is a further example. You know, an autocrat's favorite tool is a monopoly on telling the story. And if you can control the people who tell that story, then you've got an autocrat's greatest dream. And so what is now going on at the FCC is an effort to change the rules about who can own the right to use the public's airwaves to broadcast to Americans. Go back to the beginning of broadcasting, the 1934 Communications Act, in which the founding principle was a diversity of voices and diversity of ownership.

6:19so that the debate that is so essential to democracy could take place. Over time, that has been whittled down to the point where only about 20 % of America's local, quote-unquote, broadcast outlets are truly locally owned. And what Chairman Carr announced on Tuesday of this week, the last day of September, was an initiative to change the rules to allow, number one, a handful of broadcasters to have a greater reach nationally. And number two, in that process, to allow them to have greater control locally. So I'll give you a quick example. There is a merger that has already taken place, already been agreed to, between Nextar Media, which is the largest chain of broadcast outlets in the nation, and another chain by the name of Tenga, which is per se illegal today because it violates the FCC's rules in terms of both reach and local ownership.

8:01Yet the deal went through, or the deal has been agreed to, and is only awaiting the FCC to change the rules to make it legal. And Brendan Carr has indicated an intention to do that. And how do you make it legal? Well, you cut back on the diversity of voices, and you cut back on the diversity of ownership, and you give it to corporations that have self-identified as being Trump friendly.

8:39Ben Meiselas:It is a wild concept, I think, for our audience to hear that back in the Communications Act in the 1930s, about 90 years ago, that everything that this current, call it a regime, attacks is diversity. But right there in the 1934 Communication Act, the main mission statement, diversity, diversity of voices, diversity of ownership, and that here we are in 2025 with this 90 years later, going to be 100 years later soon, attacking diversity. So what can be done, though, with this ownership rule that's on the table now that would be unthinkable, you know, I think back when, not unthinkable, people would think about it, but unpassable back in the day when you were the commissioner, because diversity, when your mission statement is diversity of voices and diversity of ownership, there are certain things that are likely non-starch.

9:45Ben Meiselas:What can be done? How do we address it? How do you address it? Well, I'm addressing it by trying to make sure that there is an awareness of it. The process that has just begun at the FCC is a process called a notice to propose rulemaking. And there will be a period of about 30 days in which the public can make comments on this, FCC.gov. And then there'll be another period of 30 days where they can do reply comments where they say, well, this guy was wrong for this reason or whatever. And then the rule will will be passed by the commission, probably on a party line vote. There are two Republicans and one Democrat sitting on the commission today.

10:35And and so one would expect that that that would happen. And that will open an opportunity for lawsuits. Those who participated in the proceeding, have filed comments, et cetera, can challenge it in court. And one would hope that something like that happens because there, you know, I don't want to get down into the weeds of communications law. But there's an interesting thing that the limit on the national reach was set by Congress. And suddenly the FCC thinks it can change that. Now, it's really interesting that the conservative Republicans for years have been saying, oh, there's too much power in these independent agencies.

11:32You need to cut them back. And the Supreme Court, Robert's Supreme Court, just did last year cut back the authority of independent agencies. And so it will be fascinating to see what happens if there is a challenge to this effort to make an illegal acquisition legal and how the courts deal with that. And so it is important to stand up and face this challenge.

12:07Ben Meiselas:You know, our listeners and viewers who follow our legal analysis will remember the case that Tom is talking about there, the Chevron case, which used to be where you show deference to what these agencies are unless they act arbitrary or capriciously or totally beyond the bounds of law. you would defer to the agency with Chevron deference being overruled. The federal courts now have a more robust authority to scrutinize what the agency is doing. So it will be interesting now in a post-Chevron deference world that people like Brendan Carr and other Project 2025 authors were pushing to now see a lawsuit where they don't have the benefit of a Chevron deference.

12:53Ben Meiselas:But that's getting in a little bit of the weeds. But let's get out of the weeds. But just talk generally. I mean, you being a prior commissioner of the FCC, seeing this guy, Brendan Carr, come in, like, did you know of this guy before? I mean, did you see this kind of coming? I mean, you know, where is this going? What's your views about what's happening right now kind of generally? Because, look, to me, you know, it's very odd to see a cartoonishly villain figure kind of show up on Fox on an almost daily basis like this guy does and just say, this is just the beginning. We're coming after you next.

13:38Ben Meiselas:I mean, it's a little bit strange to see that at the FCC, which is supposed to promote diversity of viewpoints and diversity of ideas to have like a cartoon villain on TV. So I've known Brendan for years. He was a former staffer at the FCC. He was the former general counsel during the last. Worked for you. No, it didn't work for me. He worked for one of the commissioners. When I was chairman, he worked for one of the commissioners. And then when that commissioner became chairman, he made him general counsel. And then Trump put him on the commission as a commissioner and then elevated him when he came in.

14:16He was the author, by the way, of the FCC chapter in Project 2025. And here's the fascinating thing about that. You say, you know, tell me about Brendan Carr. The first seven words in the FCC chapter in Project 2025, which Brendan Carr wrote, are the FCC should promote free speech. Really? That's what we just saw in Jimmy Kimmel? That's what we're seeing with the limitation of the diversity of voices? So, you know, I actually have respect for Brendan Carr. Brendan Carr has great intelligence. He's a really smart guy. He's a very articulate guy. He is a very strategic thinker. My problem is that he's putting those significant skills to work in efforts that are antithetical to the public interest.

15:26And therein lies another interesting point, that he justifies what he's doing because another part of the statute says that the FCC should act in the, quote, public interest, convenience, and necessity. And Chairman Carr has been saying, well, I'm going to define the public interest. And he defines the public interest as things that are an agreement with President Trump and his agenda. And I will enforce The public interest, this broad term, where I determined that this disagreement with Trump is not in the public interest is an interesting thing, Ben, that that early in his tenure, he said, you know, we should probably have a rulemaking at the FCC that defines public interest.

16:33And I was taking bets then, and I will continue to take bets, that we will never see anything like that. because it is impossible for somebody to sit down and relate the First Amendment to the MAGA agenda. And that any effort that Chairman Carr would do to do that is a mission impossible and it will never happen. But the problem is that right now, this fuzzy term, the public interest, which we all want to support, is being interpreted in a quite unfuzzy way to mean things that agree with Donald Trump. Right.

17:30Ben Meiselas:And how do you if you're going to do a definition of public interest in the context of the FCC, how do you untether that from the idea of diversity of voices and ownership that kind of underlines one of the main and the enabling statute to begin with? So but before we go, I want to speak to you about what you want to see. Obviously, these are not these are dark times for most Americans right now in the pocketbook. You know, also, again, as it relates to FCC, people wondering, you know, the people who I watch on TV, are they going to be canceled because they tell a bad joke about Donald Trump? I mean, is humor and comedy, you know, the same way lots of right wing people wanted to try to fear monger back in the day?

18:19Ben Meiselas:Like now you actually have an FCC commissioner, like actually actual canceling of comedians. Like what do you want to see happen generally right now? Or, you know, we have six million subscribers right here, you know, who don't just want to watch like they would watch a cable news network and go, OK, let's see this person. They want to know what should they be thinking. So as you're out and about, what do you want them to take away right now? We know the bad. Is there hope? What can we do? Well, there has to be hope, Ben. You can't get up in the morning if there's not hope. But what I hope people take away is the FCC used to be the largest unknown agency in Washington.

19:07You know, who could go around and name the FCC chairman? And I was FCC chairman. And I, you know, and and but boy, everybody could sure name Brandon Carr right now. So the fact that there is an awareness of the power of the FCC, the fact that there is an awareness of the power of one individual to carry out the instructions of President Trump using the powers of the FCC. is something that we all need to be aware of. And as I said before, we need to be making sure that our voices are heard through the channels of the FCC, such as FCC.gov and filing comments and being ready to stand up for things that we don't agree with.

19:56But there is an awareness. Action begins with awareness. And I'm just grateful for the fact that there is now some awareness because of this ham-handed handling of the whole Jimmy Kimmel exercise.

20:14Ben Meiselas:I think it's really such an incredible point because we, the people, never actually, we took for granted that there were people like you behind the scenes who were just quietly doing their job and who weren't out there every day. Say, hey, look at me, everybody. Look what I'm doing. and look what I'm inflicting upon you. You know, you just go about the work. And I think we all now realize that we have to be active participants. We the people can't be idle and hope that there are people like you, Tom. We need to have active roles in understanding what's actually happening in the government and who these people are and that people in agencies that may not be always front and center wield huge amounts of power over our day-to-day life.

21:09Ben Meiselas:So I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you coming on. Anything else you want? You're so smart. Anything else you want to say before we go? Look, you're spot on. And I'm just grateful that you're creating a platform where these kinds of thoughts and ideas can be expressed. And they're no longer trees falling in the forest. Tom Wheeler, everybody. Federal Communications Commissioner back in the Obama administration. The chairman. Thanks for joining us, Tom. Thank you, Ben. Everybody hit subscribe. Let's get to 6 million subscribers. Thanks for watching. Want to stay plugged in? Become a subscriber to our sub stack at MidasPlus.com.

21:53Ben Meiselas:You'll get daily recaps from Ron Philip Kowski, ad-free episodes of our podcast, and more exclusive content only available at MidasPlus.com.

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