Former State Dept and CIA Official Ned Price on Trump and Ukraine

0:00Ben Meiselas:This episode is brought to you by Claude by Anthropic. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter and finds connections you might have missed. For problems worth solving, get started at claude.ai slash Spotify. In business, the best days are when priorities stay on track. For midsize and large companies, that means managing multiple exposures, from property and liability to cyber and more.

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1:21Ben Meiselas:Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. Fox News is streaming live on Fox One. When it matters most, you want the truth from the voices you trust. Fox News goes beyond the headlines, bringing you the stories you won't hear anywhere else. Live coverage, sharp analysis, real perspective. At home or on the go, stay connected when it counts. Stream Fox News on Fox One. Download today. The right window treatments change everything.

1:56Ben Meiselas:Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At Blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50 ,000 five-star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals. Free samples. Zero pressure. Right now, get up to 45 % off site-wide, plus get a free professional measure at Blinds.com. Rules and restrictions apply. Let's talk about the intelligence community's perspective on Donald Trump's disastrous meeting with Vladimir Putin and also Donald Trump's, I believe, disastrous meeting with our European allies as well.

2:36Ben Meiselas:I mean, former CIA analysts, former CIA director John Brennan, former CIA analysts are looking at this and saying, wow, Putin was able to manipulate Donald Trump hook, line and sinker. Putin was a former top KGB member. He knows how to develop sources, how to develop people, how to manipulate people. And some of the manipulation tactics just seem so obvious. Maybe others were a little less subtle. I don't know. They all seem pretty obvious. And Trump bought into all of them. I mean, Trump came back parroting Putin's talking points. Trump was saying no ceasefire. Donald Trump was saying we need to redo all of our elections in the United States because Putin told me that the 2020 election was rigged.

3:17Ben Meiselas:Putin told me we're hot as a pistol. Putin said the country's as hot as a pistol. Vladimir Putin said it. Putin runs Russia. Russia's like the strongest country in the world, Donald Trump was saying. Putin turned Donald Trump into literally Putin's PR guy. And Trump came back. He's like Peskov. And he's been just saying Peskov's Putin's PR guy. And Trump's been just saying all the Putin talking points. It reminds me of this article from Foreign Policy that I read back in July. I've shared it with you all before. When the threat is inside the White House, what CIA insiders make of the MAGA moles and toadies now in charge of U.S.

3:53Ben Meiselas:national security. You go and you read it. It's like with Ratcliffe in charge, John Ratcliffe, who's a Trump lackey at the CIA, the MAGA warrior Kash Patel running the FBI, the conspiracy theorist Tulsi Gabbard overseeing national intelligence, and the Christian nationalist Pete Hegsip at the Pentagon, Trump has created the makings of a national security nightmare. Quote, totalitarianism in power invariably replaces all first rate talents, regardless of their sympathies, with those crackpots and fools whose lack of intelligence and creativity is still the best guarantee of their loyalty. Hannah Arendt observed decades ago.

4:34Ben Meiselas:I mean, that's so on point. You take a look at what John Brennan, former CIA director, turned MSNBC analyst. Here's what he had to say. He's worried that Putin may have microchipped Donald, you know, the beast when Trump put Putin in here. Watch what he says. Let's play it. So I think you could see on Putin's face. He felt very, very comfortable. And the fact that he was given a ride then in the presidential limousine, the beast. I certainly hope the Secret Service has swept that vehicle very well in terms of any type of, you know, small microchip that might have been put in the vehicle. But then in the press conference, Putin looked chipper.

5:10Ben Meiselas:He looked upbeat. He looked chipper, upbeat. He was laughing. His foreign intelligence, foreign advisor, rather, Sergei Lavrov was wearing SSR, USSR shirt. Andrea Kendall-Taylor, a former senior analyst at the CIA, just gave an interview with Foreign Policy Magazine. Here's what she had to say. Let's play it. Many people now see with the summit that the worst fears of the analytic community going into the summit now appear to be in play. So number one, it was just the pageantry that we talked about. So Putin was able to secure this meeting on U.S. soil with a U.S. leader. He stood on the stage during the press conference and parroted his view of the war, how it started and what it's about without any rebuttal from the U.S.

6:01Ben Meiselas:president. One of the things that I fear the most is that he was successful in driving a wedge between the U.S. on the one hand and Europe and Ukraine on the other by now putting the impetus back on the Ukrainians. I mean, I think that was one of the key goals that Putin had coming into this was to say yes, but, you know, appear pragmatic, appear like he was ready to make a deal, and then frame the Ukrainians as the one being the barrier to peace. And I fear that's where we sit today. And quite notably, there were no concessions from the Russian side and no pressure, no sanctions. And so it really was a great success, I think, for President Putin in that, yeah, he's shifting the onus back onto the Ukrainians, raising the risk that the United States reapplies pressure to Ukraine, while also buying more time to prosecute this war.

6:56Ben Meiselas:So all in all, I think it was a big win for the Russians, a big loss for Ukraine. And let's show you over here. This is former CIA official Robert Dannenberg. Here's what he told ABC. Let's play it. You were station chief in Moscow once. That's the head spy in Moscow. You knew Vladimir Putin at the time. He, of course, has that intelligence background as well. How did that play into what you saw play out in Alaska? Yeah, thank you. People talk a lot about Vladimir Putin's background as a KGB officer. What does that mean? It means he's a detail guy. It means that he's a guy who understands intelligence and its importance for him as a head of state.

7:39Ben Meiselas:He will have spent hours preparing for his meetings with Donald Trump. I think this was the seventh one that they've had. and he will have carefully factored in what his intelligence services tell him about Donald Trump and what's going on in the United States in his preparation for his meeting with the president on Friday. So how did you see that play out, really? Well, KTB training, like CIA training, is a lot about spotting, assessing, developing, and recruiting people to be intelligence sources. And in the case of Putin and Trump, it's about spotting, assessing, developing, and manipulating, which is also a key part of the intelligence equation.

8:20Ben Meiselas:And what we saw on Friday, what we've seen in previous meetings, including Helsinki, was Putin showing that he had carefully prepared his remarks that he was going to make to Donald Trump. And they were designed to ingratiate himself with the president of the United States and put him in a position to manipulate the president's point of view. Do you think he got what he wanted? I think, you know, didn't Donald Trump say he would know whether the meeting was going to be a success or a failure in the first two minutes? I would argue to you that Putin saw the same thing when Putin got into the car with Trump and he turned and looked at the cameras and smirked.

8:58Ben Meiselas:That was his two minute. I've got this thing. Well said. Let's bring in Ned Price, former senior analyst at the CIA in charge of the PDB presidential daily briefing. You are a spokesperson for the CIA. Break it down in your perspective. Let's first talk about the meeting with Putin. Then let's go on to Trump's meeting with Europe. Let's then go on to where we go from there. But talk through what you saw with the meeting with Putin. Well, I think the clips you played were instructive. There are lots of concerns when any American president, let alone Donald Trump, is going to meet with Vladimir Putin, who has an intelligence background, who's been on the world stage for decades now.

9:44Yes, of course, you have to be worried about the concern that they might place some sort of technical listening device in the beast or take advantage of technological means to further their intelligence goals against the White House. I'm actually much less concerned about that. Number one, how much are you going to learn from listening to Donald Trump rabble in the beast? But number two, I think this, you know, more seriously, there's another tactic I think that Putin was prioritizing here, and it's less about surveillance, and it's more about, as you heard from Rob Danenberg, manipulation. That is really, as Rob was saying, the key skill that intelligence officers learn when they're going through their training, whether they're KGB, whether they're CIA, whether they're any other intelligence, worthy intelligence outfit the world over.

10:35And it's not about, you know, technology that will make you appear invisible or learning how to see through, you know, hidden eyeballs in the back of your head. I think there are lots of misconceptions about what intelligence tradecraft is. It is really the art and it is the art of, as Rob was saying, understanding someone, assessing someone, and then most importantly, lending the false impression to your target, that you care about him or her, that you're interested in what they're talking about, and that you're on the same team. And I fear that's exactly what President Putin did from the moment he got into the beast with Donald Trump.

11:18We heard about some of that, including from Trump himself. He said that Putin raised mail-in voting. He said that Putin complimented him on some of the greatest hits from the campaign trail and really endorsed some of what he'd been saying. Obviously, so much of that was about manipulation. But then I think yesterday, there was something really startling that hasn't gotten enough attention. President Trump was having a conversation with President Macron, and there was a hot mic. And President Trump sort of leaned over and said to him, said to President Macron, I think Putin wants to make a deal.

11:52I think he wants to make a deal for me. Very clearly, Putin left Trump with the impression that, you know what, I like you, we can work together, let's do this together. But he also left, and I think this is the most important point, President Trump embracing not Ukraine's view, not Europe's shared view, but the Kremlin's view. If you remember, Ben, President Trump went into the summit on Friday saying essentially, if there's not an immediate unconditional ceasefire, won't be happy. Moscow will face the severe consequences they were supposed to have faced the Friday before Trump's own self-imposed deadline.

12:30And I'll walk away in two minutes if I don't hear that. And then, lo and behold, a couple hours later, the two men appear on stage together. President Trump has fully embraced President Putin's vision of a so-called peace deal. There was nothing to be heard or found of a ceasefire deal. And he was saying things like, it's up to President Zelensky now to make peace. So President Putin was absolutely successful. He was most successful in the skills that he learned in the KGB, manipulating, bringing and really cementing President Trump in his camp.

13:08Ben Meiselas:And the whole setup, though, that Trump even did in Alaska seems to have kind of trapped himself in addition to all of the tactics that Putin was going to deploy, when you rolled out the red carpet, when you had the American troops go on their knees to literally roll it out there, when you stand it and started clapping, when they built the imagery around, you know, peace or whatever the thing that it said behind them, Trump already or anybody in that position who did that put themselves in a position where you couldn't really extricate yourself like the threats were because it looked like he was, you know, just getting ready for his longtime girlfriend or overseas wife that he hadn't seen.

13:56Ben Meiselas:And he brought it all out. And so the only rejection that could have happened in that public way was Putin rejecting him just based on how he trapped himself in direct. It's just one of the things that was like, you're the worst negotiator. How could you even do a deal like this when you've given him the win of the environment, which is, I think, a major issue in planning just where it takes place. It's such an own goal. Look, there have been a number of elements that have been useful to Ukraine in its efforts to defend itself against Russian aggression over the past several years. Number one was the diplomatic, economic isolation and pressure that Russia has felt.

14:40And just by inviting President Putin to U.S. soil, by fedding him with this arrival ceremony that is not even reserved for our closest allies. Can you think of the last time? Has there ever been a time where there's been a B-2 flyover for any country, let alone one of our closest allies? And with that arrival ceremony, with the setup, as you said, President Trump undid so much of what dozens of countries around the world have worked for several years to put in place, this political isolation, diplomatic isolation with sanctions and other forms of economic pressure, this economic isolation. And then you have the optics of it all.

15:25What President Putin has coveted, especially since President Obama called Russia a quote unquote regional power in the in the waning days of his second term, is nothing more than to stand on the same plane as the U.S. president, to stand side by side, to be seen as an equal. And in some ways, President Trump didn't make President Putin come off as an equal. He made him come off as a superior. Again, the pageantry allowing him to speak first during the press conference, allowing him to set the rules for the press conference where they didn't take questions. President Putin got everything he wanted optically.

16:05He got everything he wanted in terms of the imagery. But again, I am most concerned that he got everything he wanted substantively because he left Anchorage with President Trump firmly in his camp. Even after a day of engagement with the Europeans yesterday at the White House, President Trump hasn't moved off that Russian position. He continues to advocate for it to this very hour.

16:29Ben Meiselas:That's why I always tell our audience here, let's take away the noise and focus on the facts. So in Alaska, was a ceasefire achieved? Because that's what everybody said the goal was. That's what Trump said the goal was. The answer is no. So then as you start looking at, well, what happened with Europe? Did Putin agree to a trilateral meeting with Zelensky and Trump? Well, that didn't happen. Did Putin agree to these Article 5-like guarantees is what the Trump regime is saying, and then that's being parroted by the media. Trump says Putin agreed to Article 5 guarantees with either a NATO force or European soldiers in Ukraine.

17:12Ben Meiselas:And Russia's out there saying pretty clearly in their media, no, we've never said that. We're not doing that. And they've never agreed to the ceasefire, as I said before. So I guess in some ways, too, It's concerning because I feel our media is complicit in continuing this Trump said, but not letting us know how dire it was, because I want to get your take on it. To me, the European meeting by from an American standpoint and our geopolitical interest, how could it be viewed as anything but like one of the biggest failures ever? Look, there's been a lot of fawning coverage of what happened at the White House yesterday.

17:52And if you grade on a curve, if you grade on the Trump curve, yes, it was a good meeting in the sense that President Zelensky was welcomed back to the White House. President Trump said nice things to him. He said nice things back to President Trump. President Zelensky wasn't thrown out on the street after 45 minutes. In fact, he was there for several hours. Several other European leaders were there. They fawned over President Trump. So in that sense, again, the imagery was good. It was certainly, when it comes to Ukraine, far better than what happened at the end of February. And if that's what we have to choose from, either February or yesterday, I'll take yesterday.

18:33I'll take yesterday any day. But when you, just as you said, take a step back and think about the facts. President Trump went into the meeting yesterday, coming off his meeting with President Putin in Alaska on Friday, embracing President Putin's proposal for a so-called peace agreement, rejecting the idea that the war, that the shooting needs to stop first in the form of a ceasefire, something that Europe and Ukraine have been unanimous and consistent in saying. And then at the end of the day, backing off what he had said previously, that there would be this trilateral between Zelensky, Putin and himself, that where at least President Zelensky would have some backup when it comes to meeting with the nuclear armed neighbor that is in the process of invading him and killing his citizens.

19:27And by the end of the day, even that was off the table. And it was sort of, you know, over to you, Volodymyr, to work with Putin, the guy who is every single day killing your citizens to arrange this meeting. And if that works out, then, you know, we'll have we'll have a trilateral. But when you look at the substance, President Trump has not moved. President Putin's positions have remained firm. And President Trump, despite all the happy talk in the room yesterday, was parroting exactly what President Putin has pushed on him.

20:00Ben Meiselas:So, Ned, play this out, I guess, short term and long term. I've been telling our audience long term, our allies who are essentially former allies at this point are allies in name only. And it's sad to see this, you know, how America's treated Canada, Europe, Australia. We won't even meet with Anthony Albanese of Australia while Donald Trump will rush to meet Vladimir Putin. But I can go on and on and on. you know, India, others de-risking from the United States. I think we see what Rubio talked about, a multipolar world, although Rubio, I think, expected America to be one of the most powerful polls.

20:38Ben Meiselas:But I think we're looking weaker and weaker. But I want to hear your assessment of the longer term. What about the shorter term? Like, how does Ukraine and Europe and the coalition of willing, as you see it, with all of this, with what Trump can clearly easily get pulled back into with Putin. What are they doing in terms of hanging on in their mind for the next four years? Do they take just a defensive posture, try to increase as many Russian casualties as possible, hope we get past these next four years, save as much of Donbass as you can, even with some incremental Russian advancement? What do you see the short term and then the long term situations developing?

21:17Yeah, well, first the short term, and I'll tell you my fear. My fear is that President Putin is, again, just playing for time. And his apparent rejection of a trilateral meeting, to me, is a data point. It's not dispositive, but it is a data point that he doesn't intend to meet with President Zelensky, that he is willing to stand up President Zelensky, but he didn't want to also, at the same time, stand up President Trump. And so by disaggregating them and potentially suggesting, you know, maybe Volodymyr and I will get together first. And if that goes well, will bring you into it. That's just his stall tactic.

21:54And I would actually be surprised if a meeting between Ukraine and Russia at the leader level materializes over the coming weeks. And even Russian media is starting to say the issue was broached as to whether there could be more senior level contacts. It's very, very noncommittal. And I don't think that's a very good sign. So I think the task that's between Russia and Ukraine, if there's a trilateral following that, great. I think that will be to certainly Ukraine's benefit and to Europe's benefit. But I think the real task between the United States and Europe and Ukraine over the short term is to work out these security guarantees and what exactly that looks like, what the United States is going to contribute.

22:37Here again is a concern because the security guarantees in one sense, that's actually the easier part of the equation. We are really negotiating between and among our allies and partners, Ukraine, Europe, and others, Russia shouldn't get a veto over what security guarantees Ukraine gets. But here too, the Trump administration might see otherwise, tragically. The real difficult question comes with the idea of land and territory. And, you know, on one level, you can guarantee a really terrible deal, and that will just be tantamount to surrender. If you're guaranteeing Russia's permanent possession of 20 or 20 plus percent of Ukrainian territory, along with no NATO, along with no military, along with potentially a change in government, you know, that guarantee isn't worth anything.

23:28And it's not something we should be pushing for. So really, the territorial question is going to be the more difficult one. I think over the longer term, Ben, I think Europe, despite the happy face they put on, And I should say the vast majority of these European leaders see President Trump as a Bulgarian. They go there and they stroke his ego because they know they have to. They're holding their noses. They don't like him. They don't like what he stands for, but they've seen the alternative and they don't want the alternative. So I think they are wise to the fact that they are going to have to become more independent.

24:03I think they are wise to the fact that the extent that Ukraine will continue to need security assistance into the future, It's going to depend on purchases from, not contributions from United States to Ukraine. And I think above all of that, there are going to be certain European leaders, I think President Macron, chief among them, who are going to be pushing for Europe to go its own way more and more, to go its own way in terms of its own security, in terms of its economic interests, in terms of its diplomatic interests around the world. You're starting to see this divergence. It's not something that has started within the past six months, but I think the Trump administration has really accelerated it.

24:44And over the next three and a half years, I fear that Europe can make a good amount of progress if it feels incentivized to go its own way, to create that daylight with and from the United States. That's certainly not in our interest. It's not in Europe's interest over the long term. But Europe, unfortunately, not without reason, believes that they have no alternative at this point.

25:06Ben Meiselas:Yeah, I mean, even you see with Canada, it's like they have the F-35s and they're now doing a review that if there was a way not to buy the F-35s, they wouldn't. There's nothing else out there in the market that's really like it based on what they're doing. But you see Europe having to assert itself. We got to be building these weapons. Japan rebuilding its military. I mean, you're seeing across the world what this looks like with a weaker, weaker America. and anything else before we go that you think needs some more coverage that isn't getting enough attention that you want to let our people know?

25:40Well, you know, Ben, I think this is Russia, Ukraine is really dominating the news. But to some extent, it is, I think, eclipsing so much of what else is going on in the world right now. When's the last time that the mainstream media has really covered Gaza, the abject failure of American leadership there. There has been no American leadership there. And, you know, I think to some extent, President Trump really pushed for this showy, flashy summit on Friday. Yes, I think there was some sense that he wanted to get a deal between Russia and Ukraine, which still appears elusive. But to some extent, this is intentional.

26:23And he wanted to block out coverage of Epstein. He wanted to block out coverage of inflation, of some of the economic indicators. And so he has put on a show. We have watched that show, but we also need to continue watching everything else that's going on around the world. And unfortunately, here too, all the terrible things that this administration is inflicting on us here at home.