Inside Trump’s Pentagon Threat to Pope Leo XIV

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1:56Ben Meiselas:GoFundMe.com. This podcast is supported by GoFundMe. Pope Leo XIV is absolutely furious at Donald Trump and the Trump regime and their behavior. As we previously reported, Pope Leo has called off all visits essentially to the United States on the 250th United States anniversary. July 4th, Pope Leo made a point that he will be in Lampedusa in Italy, spending his time showing compassion for the migrant community there. And we're learning some additional details as Pope Leo XIV has been calling out Donald Trump and his despicable regime's imperialist and tactics of saying we're going to obliterate civilizations and everything is going to war.

2:42Ben Meiselas:We're going to obliterate you and destroy everything. Pope Leo XIV has been calling that out. And J.D. Vance, who converted to Catholicism, and Pete Hegseth, who invokes God all the time, Pope Leo XIV has been pretty much directing messages without necessarily saying their names, but it's clear he's calling them out. And so what the Trump regime tried to do, and this was a tactic that Hitler did with the bishops right before Hitler engaged in the Holocaust or right around that time, is to threaten Pope Leo XIV and to threaten the Holy See with the United States military. And essentially, the same way the Trump regime was threatening to invade Greenland, right behind the scenes, what we're learning today is that the United States was making threats that suggested that they would use military force against the Holy See, against the Vatican, against Pope Leo XIV, And they summon Pope Leo XIV.

3:42Ben Meiselas:Like, Ben, what are you talking about? Yes, they summon Pope Leo XIV's top American diplomat to the Pentagon, which now calls itself unlawfully the Department of War. The undersecretary of war, Elbridge Colby, invoked the Avignon papacy, the period when the French crown used military force to bend the Bishop of Rome to its will. and they said that we have the power. This is what the Trump regime said to Pope Leo XIV's top diplomat in the United States, that we have the military power to do whatever we want. Whatever we want, we will do in the world. And Pope Leo XIV, he needs to know that. So the Catholic Church has better take sides and they better take the right side.

4:32Ben Meiselas:Now, this meeting that took place that I just referenced was in January, and it followed Pope Leo XIV's speech, which was kind of a state of the world speech that he gives. And as Christopher Hale writes, in the speech that enraged Pete Hegseth and top Pentagon officials, Pope Leo XIV said, a diplomacy that promotes dialogue and seeks consensus among all parties is being replaced by a diplomacy based on force. War is back in vogue and a zeal for war is spreading. The principle established after the Second World War, which prohibited nations from using force to violate the borders of others, has been completely undermined.

5:15Ben Meiselas:And since Pope Leo XIV essentially had his life threatened and the life of the cardinals and bishops and others in the Holy See threatened by the Trump regime, Pope Leo XIV has not backed down at all during this unlawful and catastrophic war in Iran, where at the end Donald Trump completely folded. Pope Leo XIV directed this message to Pete Hegseth. Jesus is the king of peace who rejects war, whom no one can use to justify war. He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them. Even though you make many prayers, God will not listen. Your hands are full of blood. In other words, Pete Hegseth, stop invoking the name of God and Jesus in your war crimes because they are not listening.

6:04Ben Meiselas:Also, Pope Leo XIV is saying that the type of thinking of Hegseth and J.D. Vance is entirely foreign to the way of Jesus Christ. The Pope argues that Christianity has been distorted by a desire for domination, warning that people mistake power for righteousness. Quote, we consider ourselves powerful when we dominate, victorious when we destroy. Instead, he says, God's example is not how to dominate, but how to give life and adds that Jesus does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war. And take a look at some of the posts that Pope Leo XIV has been making lately. He says,

7:13Ben Meiselas:cause of the idolatry of profit that plunders the earth's resources because of the violence of war that kills and destroys. He then writes, again, these are messages that seem obviously directed at Trump and Hegsif and Vance and this entire Trump regime. Often the proclamation of truth is obscured by what we today call fake news, lies, insinuations, and unfounded accusations. Yet in the face of such obstacles, the truth does not remain hidden. Rather, it comes forth to meet us, living and radiant, illuminating, even in the deepest and darkness and the deepest and darkest hours. Now, I think when Pope Leo XIV was ultimately made the pope, lots of people and became the pope, lots of people were looking at his background, the first American pope born and raised in the United States of America, and then obviously studying and traveling abroad and rising through the ranks of the Catholic Church abroad.

8:11Ben Meiselas:But I think someone who was known that would stand up against the exact type of things that Donald Trump is engaging in now, and he has not shied away from it. Remember when Donald Trump had the, he's still having it, but when the ICE and Border Patrol Gestapo were rounding up and killing and murdering and maiming people in the streets, you had Pope Leo XIV standing up, speaking out, coordinating with cardinals. in the United States and bishops and the church. And the church got really active, as you remember. I mean, going into the build, the immigration, federal immigration buildings. I mean, being there, demanding that they be able to pray with the individuals who were kidnapped and administer mass.

8:59Ben Meiselas:All of that was happening. And Pope Leo XIV was behind it all. And he was directing it. I mean, Just to show you some other data points, I mean, this was Pete Hegseth. This was Hegseth yesterday invoking the name of God over and over again in terms of threatening the entire civilization of Iran with genocide. Here, play this clip. Our troops, our American warriors deserve the credit for this day. But God deserves all the glory. tens of thousands of sorties, refuelings, and strikes carried out under the protection of divine providence, a massive effort with miraculous protection. Dude 44 Bravo spoke for all of us.

9:46Ben Meiselas:God is good. Then you had J.D. Vance on the tarmac after trying to prop up Viktor Orban, on Putin's puppet. J.D. Vance was saying that he doesn't even know who Cardinal Christophe Pierre is and has no clue about any of these people. And we don't know about the threats that were taking place by the Defense Department threatening essentially war, threatening to attack and invade the Holy See and go back to the Avignon Papacy in the 13th century. This is what J.D. Vance, I don't know. I don't know. Here, play this clip. X has been abuzz the last couple of days of the free press story saying that senior pentagon officials in january including rich colby brought cardinal pierre into the pentagon brought who cardinal christophe pierre okay into the pentagon i haven't seen this story unfortunately essentially the reporting by the free press is that they told him that the american military has a lot of might and they can do whatever they want and the church should get on its side does that message sound correct to you is that something you would sign off on?

10:50Ben Meiselas:So one, I, I, with no disrespect to the Cardinal, I don't know who Cardinal Christophe Pierre is. He's the ambassador to the Holy CDA and the U.S. Oh, okay. Okay. I do. I've, I've met him before. Sorry. I just didn't remember the name. Uh, I've never seen this reporting. I'd like to actually talk to Cardinal Christophe Pierre and frankly, to our people to figure out what actually happened. I think it's always a bad idea to offer an opinion on stories that are unconfirmed and uncorroborated. So I'm not going to do that. Well, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to bring in Christopher Hale.

11:21Ben Meiselas:And I've cited Christopher Hale's stories and reporting before. He's got these sub stack letters from Leo, the American Pope and U.S. politics. And, you know, look, I understand as well that our audience spans lots of religions from Catholic to Christianity, to Muslims, to Jews, to Hindu, to no religion. And the main kind of core principle that we talk about here at the Midas Dutch Network, though, is empathy. It's love. It's bringing people together, whatever religion or no religion. It's about bringing people together. And to me, Donald Trump's all about dividing and attacking. And I think regardless of what your religion is, I think we can objectively look at what Pope Leo XIV has demonstrated with his leadership and standing up to Donald Trump and recognizing there's a great deal of power in that.

12:18Ben Meiselas:And that's why the Trump regime was so intimidated and threatened him. You have great sourcing inside the Vatican in Washington, D.C., and you seem to know everything that's going on as it relates to the intersection of the church and U.S. politics and the church. Generally, you were handling Catholic outreach for Obama. You've written for Time magazine and other periodicals about the church and about. So talk to us about this incident. And let's talk more broadly about Pope Leo XIV standing up to Trump. But talk to us about what your sources are telling you about this incident. Well, I must say that this report originated with the free press and we were able to confirm it throughout the day.

12:59But here's how the story goes. In early January, Cardinal Christophe Pierre, as you mentioned, who was up until last month, Pope Leo's personal nuncio, which is Vatican's feat for ambassador to United States, was strangely called not to the State Department, mind you, he is a diplomat, but actually directly to the Pentagon, which is strange in itself. And then while he was there at the Pentagon, there was a meeting with the Undersecretary of State. And in this meeting, it suggested that the Cardinal Christophe Pierre, that they were upset with Pope Leo XIV's early January address to the Vatican, to the diplomatic corps of the Holy See, where he said that war is back in vogue.

13:45There is a zeal for war and that the rule of law regarding the territory of nations have been violated. Mind you, this speech took place days after Trump's invasion of Venezuela. So the administration was correct to read this as a critique of their policy, obviously global in nature, but yes, of what they had done in Venezuela and what they were threatening at that point to do in Greenland and what they've done now in Iran just months later. So when you came in, it was tense. And one of the diplomats suggested, brought up the Avignon Papacy, which you mentioned earlier. For your readers, the Avion Papacy was this 14th century phenomenon where the French regime was upset with the papacy.

14:33So not only did they influence the papacy, they kidnapped the Pope, Pope Boniface. They kidnapped and, in fact, killed him, murdered him. And so it was a stunning suggestion to be made to bring up in this meeting. and Cardinal Christophe Pierre from our sourcing takes this information back to the Holy See, back to the Vatican. And there have been discussions about Pope Leo XIV coming to the United States this year. And that was put on ice. And from what I can understand, it's been put on ice indefinitely. There's some thoughts that he might come here in 2027. I honestly do not think we'll see Pope Leo in the United States until after Donald Trump leaves the presidency.

15:16Ben Meiselas:You know, when he's picking to go to Lampedusa on July 4th, that's the island right by Italy, which is known as a hub of migration, which is kind of used there in Italy by politicians and other anti-immigrant groups over there as kind of the way certain locations in the southern border here in the United States are, you know, and it's kind of this been used to kind of attack migrants. And I think a message is being sent that on your July 4th, 250th anniversary day, when J.D. Vance hand delivered that letter during the visit to Rome. I remember the video that you shared with it as well, of Pope Leo XIV.

16:03Ben Meiselas:It was an awkward encounter, wasn't it? It was an awkward encounter. Yeah, talk to us about that. And then basically rejecting the visit. I mean, I'm not sure. Talk to us about that. Yeah, so Pope Leo was inaugurated last May, May 18th. And J.D. Vance comes to see Pope Leo. Mind you, J.D. Vance was the last person ever to see Pope Francis, the last leader to see Pope Francis. So he met two popes within days of each other. And he delivers a letter. There's some contest about exactly what was in the letter, but it was to invite Pope Leo to the United States this year. for the 250th anniversary of our country.

16:47And Leo takes the letter, and it's an awkward encounter. Maybe you could drop in the show notes, but he puts the letter away and says, I'll take a look at that later. But there was talk about the Pope coming for the 250th anniversary. But after this meeting that occurred, that was taken off the table, and you spoke about Lampedusa. And one of the things that you talked about being a point of entry is a point of entry between North Africa and the Mediterranean Sea and Italy and Europe. But it's also a very poignant point in the history of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis, that was his first trip outside of Rome.

17:27He went there in July of 2013. And he said that very famous homily. He said, we are a people who have forgotten how to weep for the sufferings of others. So he's doing two things. He's going, he's making a pointed statement to be there on the 4th of July. And he's also honoring his predecessor, who notably said that Donald Trump isn't Christian. He said that in response to Donald Trump's 2016 campaign, his efforts to build the wall, which of course was what he ran on in 2016. So it's this dual message. But I think maybe what's maybe not known to your listeners is that he's actually going to speak to the United States.

18:10He's received a Liberty Medal Award from Philadelphia, the city of Philadelphia, on July 3rd. If you go and look through those, the previous recipients of them, they're progressive heroes and icons for the Asians. So he's going to have a message for the United States, albeit it will be mobile, it will be remote on July 3rd. And then he'll be in Lampedusa on July 4th. I am very excited for the front page of the newspaper above the fold, below the fold, because truly Leo will offer counter messaging to what Donald Trump and J.D. Vance and what dribble they might offer those days. He's smart. This man consumes media, consumes English media.

18:53He understands how to play the media in the United States. He understands how it works. And what I find fascinating is that when Leo speaks, when he wants to say something important, he says it in English. And for Catholics, we know we associate the man in the white with being very good at Italian, pretty good at Spanish, and not very good at English. This is the history of the papacy. It's remarkable to hear a pope speak fluent, natural, native English. And when he wants to say something important, he says it in English and it gets picked up here.

19:26Ben Meiselas:You know, and finally, you've been reporting how Pope Leo XIV has been able to successfully organize, whether it's cardinals, bishops, all different ranks of the cloth of people helping migrants here. And that's been a major effort, even people who at first, based on some of their background, you think may not have been so publicly out there, you know, in support of being on the front lines to help migrants. You know, I think we've seen this effort. I mean, you've covered these massive meetings, both in the United States and abroad, you know, of all these people in the Catholic Church. And, you know, you've made it clear that, yes, but behind all of this is actually Pope Leo XIV.

20:20Ben Meiselas:And so before we go, talk to us about just the broader resistance efforts and how strong they've been and the real fact that the Trump regime is truly intimidated by this. And it does have this historical parallel to Hitler being intimidated by not being able to break the church and trying to figure out how to maneuver there. Like, you know, whether it's being done because of that playbook or that's just an authoritarian thinking of dealing with the church, there are parallels there as well. So maybe, you know, combine those two concepts before we go. Well, I think the first thing I know is that I'm from Tennessee.

21:00In MAGA country throughout this nation, the Catholic Church is leading the resistance to Donald Trump. You had nuns who marched in Georgia. You had a bishop in Arkansas compare Trump's actions to the Holocaust, to Nazi Germany. You have here in Tennessee, you have the bishops standing up against deportation. So I think in MAGA country, you have the church being a bulwark, remarkably a bulwark against the Trump administration. And progressives across the country are seeing the church as something to look up to. I think the final thing I will say is I think that Pope Francis himself was leading on these issues, but he did have resistance among the hierarchy in the United States.

21:48And what they often would do is they would reduce Francis to being Argentinian. They would say, oh, the man from Buenos Aires, he doesn't understand life here in the United States. And so I think a lot of the bishops thought, the conservative bishops thought, we'll just wait for the next pope. And then by the grace of God, the next pope is a Chicagoan, an American, a progressive, a man who cares deeply about the poor, the migrants. He cares about victims of war, the oppressed. and you cannot simply say he doesn't understand us. He is one of us. Pope Leo XIV is one of us. So I've seen a conversion of sorts of the episcopacy of the bishops of the United States, whether that's because they realize that the man's in charge is one of their owns, or is it a conversion of heart?

22:39The end reality of it is the Catholic Church in the United States is unifying as a bulwark against MAGA authoritarianism, And Catholic, Christian, religious or not, we can all be thankful for that.

22:54Ben Meiselas:Christopher Hale, those social media posts you make to get, just so people know, I mean, 4 million views, 5 million views, 3 million regularly. And it's when I'm trying to research areas regarding the church and its interactions, you know, it's where I go to get my knowledge. Letters from Leo is the name of Christopher Hale's sub stack, the American Pope in US politics. Thanks for joining us, Christopher. We'd love to have you back on. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And everybody hit subscribe here and let's get to 7 million subscribers. Want to stay plugged in? Become a subscriber to our sub stack at MidasPlus.com.

23:33Ben Meiselas:You'll get daily recaps from Ron Filipkowski, ad-free episodes of our podcast, and more exclusive content only available at MidasPlus.com.

23:44Bye.