No Pack No: Recapping the Eagles Win, plus Jonathan Taylor’s MVP chances

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0:33welcome back to the mean and calm show featuring lenny where i am joined as always by dominique foxworth the host of the dominique foxworth show to recap a monday night game that i would say dominique falls into a genre i like to call great defense or horrible offense Yeah. The answer is never simple to that question. It's usually both. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think this falls more into the great defense than horrible offense. I would like to present because I don't think it was poorly executed offense as much as it was. Extremely conservative. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of conservative offense. So it wasn't like they were just bad except for the penalties and the drops.

1:20both both offensive play callers were calling the game like they were terrified of the opposing defensive line which you know might be some justification in that so obviously the eagles come out on top uh despite nick sirianni's last minute attempt to give the packers a chance uh nick sirianni who's luckier than nick sirianni today because if they had lost that game um after that so it's so funny too because um so the packers the eagles for those who have forgotten uh went for it on fourth in like eight or something or it was fourth and short four and six uh and gave the packers shorter field position with no timeouts to try to potentially win the game or tie the game which is meaningful because if they had like a real kicker that could have actually been pretty harrowing uh which we'll get to in a second um afterwards he said he just didn't want to kick the field goal because i i was looking i was like what is his explanation i gotta see this because i'll say as somebody who um hates when teams are correctly aggressive and then fail because every time it feels like eggman's like well joe the analytics say the analytics said punt y 'all i i just want to emphasize that every model i saw on the internet was like punt punt punt punt so for once the analytics said punt yeah and it's so funny because in nicks i can't remember i'm starting with this except whatever the game but nick seriani's explanation he didn't even address the punt it was like a weird deflection he was like well you know we don't want to take the field goal bro nobody was talking about field goals here we're asking why you didn't punt because of the field position and the lack of timeouts and i didn't see him address that I have to think he overruled his own people, a classic Sirianni shenanigan.

3:08I mean, what was your reaction to that? And I guess then we'll get to the Eagles win, I promise. Immediately, like this is the most interesting thing because I will create a new category of games that we can also put as like the game that you think you're going to learn a lot from, but you ultimately come out and don't feel like you've learned a ton. Because I don't know, I don't feel all that different about either team. But anyway, we'll get to that. But it seemed like in real action, they cut to him after the pass, and it seemed like he was saying why into his headset, which maybe is about the play call or the play decision or anything like that.

3:42But it seemed like he also was not surprised that they were going for it, but didn't like something. And I respect that he didn't throw anybody under the bus at that moment. But I think that we're looking at 16 yards, worst case scenario. Like if you punt touchback, you get a touchback, If you're not able to down it, you would have gained 16 yards. I guess that's the argument is 16 yards could have been gotten pretty quickly. So that's not worth doing. And I guess if you kick the field goal and you miss it, it goes from the spot where you kicked it from. Right. So potentially you're giving up six or seven more yards.

4:18I'm trying my best to wrap my head around why this was a good idea. And if you're going to do it, why a like a low probability play? I know AJ Brown is really good, but a go route? None of it really made a ton of sense, honestly. Maybe he was like, AJ, before the game, I said he'd get him a specific amount of targets, so he promised not to tweet. I don't know. It was ridiculous. Okay, let's focus on the good here. Let's start with the positive. The Eagles defense looks really good. We'll get to the Packers side of it because I think the packers were in that place where you don't trust your offensive line to pass protect but then you also can't run block so then you're not really doing anything but the reason why they couldn't trust your offensive line to pass protect is this is the best i thought the eagles four-man rush has looked in all season potentially um you know you get nolan smith back and then obviously you trade for jaylen phillips who i thought was spectacular in this game both in terms of getting pressure but also against the run and then obviously he had the final play on the fourth down attempt which we'll again we'll get to um but Dominique like when we think about the Eagles and what this means for the team going forward and can they hang with the top teams in the NFC the Seahawks the Rams um my feeling is I once again I'm still have concerns about the offense we'll get to that side of the ball but I feel much better about this defense today than I did last week because you started by saying like what have we really changed about these teams I think that was the one thing I came out of this game feeling like okay there's a little bit of a difference here they've got a pass rush now and they didn't really before and that was a problem that's fair I think that my I was focused more on the opposite side of the ball you're right that pass rush is there and that was kind of foundation of any type of defense that wants to play the way that they do where it's like heavy quarters and uh I mean Quinone is incredible Like he's someone who's so good, particularly in a game like this, where there isn't like, I know you might think it's more valuable to have him against a true number one, which like, yeah, I guess that's true.

6:24It's really nice to just know that a guy is erased. Just out there racing people. The Packers know that because he was their most targeted player in this game. I like, sorry, I swear to God, I'm not going to start complaining about the Packers immediately, but like it's the Eagles, right? Whatever you do, and I understand they do things to make this difficult, you got to go after, in this case, Dory Jackson. It's like Dejean and Mitchell were targeted more than Jackson in this one. Okay, sorry. Back to Quinn Mitchell. He's great. Sorry. I just can't stop. I was so mad watching this game. Yeah, in the past, you're right.

7:02That was an obvious – it feels like it's nice when the things that you expect to happen actually happened so like when you go and acquire a pass rusher he shows up and is immediately impactful that's like really nice to see I mean I think we saw with the Colts they like um sauce gave up a touchdown but like if you watch the whole game like sauce was impactful in a way that I thought was important allowing them which we talked about last week allowing them to do more things defensively and be a little bit more aggressive so in this particular game like I I think that that pass rush is real. This team got a little better.

7:42But I would say in comparing the offenses, because that's where it really gets interesting, because I think we knew both of these defenses were good. I don't know if this is just like some sort of confirmation bias in my mind, but the Eagles felt like this is what they wanted to get offensively. We can be angry about it or annoyed with it or whatever, but it seemed like it was consistent with what they wanted. The Packers offense felt a lot more like they couldn't get done the things they wanted to get done. And when they did have success, they had penalties or drops. And that was slightly more concerning, which some of that is on the defense they're playing against.

8:19I guess penalties and drops, like pre-snap penalties and drops, really not. I would argue this is a game where neither offensive play caller was able to really come up with answers. But the difference between Green Bay and Philadelphia is Philadelphia has Saquon Barkley and Devontae Smith. right like I mean this was like a real hey we've got stars because like the little check down to say like that's not that's not the blown coverage the the Devante uh over the top versus the safety quarters uh the we didn't point it out I'll get up this morning that's just Devante man like those the Eagles have superstars and and and it was a great throw from Hertz too right but but like no one on the Packers was making those plays in fact on the final draft you got like Wicks with it and this is not to absolve Jordan Love again we'll get to that in a second but like it didn't feel like and I thought Josh Jacobs was doing what he could back there but the difference ultimately between these two offenses against two great defenses was in those clutch moments the Eagles had superstar I mean how often have we said that about the Eagles over the last few years um and Jalen Phillips now is one of those superstars I think you could look right like it was just him like he was the most impactful defensive player in this game immediately after joining the team and some of it wasn't even on the stash sheet like the Jalex hunt uh sack happens large part because of Phillips the Kobe Dean coming through because of the matchups you got there he was so good against the run which was by the way like I think why I thought he might be a trade target for Philadelphia because you know Vic Fangio wants his edges who can defend the run and and it was just like a complete performance from him and then now it's like okay Carter Phillips Smith is back you feel really a lot better about this defense um okay that's that's the Eagles defense Packers offense I think the question I have that I want to talk to you about is how much we blame Matt LaFleur.

10:23Because, like I said, the offensive line was not holding up, right? But I think he fell into the trap that sometimes play callers do with bad offensive lines, whereas he just simply believed he could run the ball and he couldn't. That was my feeling. Or it was all short. In the first half, on first and second down, in the first half, 11 dropbacks. average depth of target can you guess seven one and a half yards Dominique I think he didn't used to be this way it's like he spent the offseason watching OANN and came back he's like I'm really conservative now because I didn't they used to be bombs away and again I I do think it's much more I see people saying well he's not he's worried about love no he's not This is about the offensive line, which fine.

11:19But on first down in this game, running the football, they have a straight yard to carry.

11:27So the conservatism is not actually protecting your quarterback is what I want to say. Right. I mean, I don't know that that's completely fair because like the, and I guess you could argue that Watson should have tried to catch that ball because I remember it might have been their first deep pass, probably based on the depth of target, probably their only deep pass of the first half. They threw that post to Watson, and it seemed like the way that Watson reacted to it, like this was an interception, it looked a lot like that interception he threw last week into triple coverage. So you are protecting your quarterback if he doesn't have a chance to throw an interception.

12:07I don't know if you're protecting him. I think to your point, when you have a quarterback, it's counterintuitive but like it's obvious to you and me and people who watch this stuff the best way to protect your quarterback is to throw when you don't have to throw yeah and if you're not having success on early downs and you're in third and let's say five plus it's like everyone knows that you're going to throw the ball and you're putting your quarterback in a more challenging position where there's no play action isn't going to affect anybody it's not going to slow the rush it's also not going to help to free people up it just is a harder situation um and i think to your point if you're going to throw the ball on early downs i get being afraid about your protection by throwing it short but still the outcome yeah can also often still be the same where you gained two yards or you threw an incomplete pass now you're in a bad situation this is though where opponent comes into play too right like there are defenses around the league where I would be like, yeah, it's fine.

13:13But the Eagles are one of the best tackling defenses in the NFL. They're amazing against short passes. And that's the other thing. I felt like Tucker Craft's not there anymore, man. The yak is no longer on the menu. You got to change it up. Until Jaden Reed comes back, that's not who you are anymore. I think that's my thing with LeFleur, just to go back to the run, the yak. It's like it feels to me like he wants to call the offense for a group of players he doesn't have anymore. By the way, Watson admitted on Twitter that he should have caught the ball. I saw that just before we came in here where he was like, yeah, he should have.

13:53Yeah, it changed the way that I looked at that pass. But I texted Charlie last night immediately after. It was like, Watson just think it was a bad pass? He reacted like he anticipated a bad pass. He switched to playing DB like way too early in that one instead of just. And he didn't get his eyes back. He'd pass it a period if he was a DB, by the way. But they don't call that offensive guys. But can I say this also? There's, of course, the coach that's on the team, and I guess this is probably just an observation about like psychology, is there's some things that you can see when you're really close to something and that you can't see when you're like backed away.

14:34And I think that we have that benefit and it'd be really helpful if coaches had someone who just like isn't in their meetings all the time. I say that to say that the it feels like that both these teams are very wed to things that may not be helpful. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. And, you know, it's like I get it. like I understand and it's a balance because like having identity is important and knowing that you're going to go back to this specific thing when when shit gets hairy it's fine but shit ain't hairy right now why are we acting scared and yes and like your reaction I think there are lots of different ways to solve a number of problems in football but some coaches are like well when I see this I do that and I think that's what you're explaining about LaFleur is he's like when I see this i do that but you could also do this like other people have different philosophies and it'd be helpful to be able to mix some of that stuff in looking to see when jaden reed comes back because i think that's massive for them just have have you seen enough out of golden to like i feel like i haven't watched him as closely i've seen like yeah it's been disappointing honestly i mean he's had some good plays but i use hurt in this game um right i know i guess that was my question No, no, no.

15:48Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, what do I think of him? I mean, it's not. His return, since he's so young, maybe also be some value. Says Jaden Reed could return from injured reserve as soon as week 13 against Detroit. They beat him back. But I just think, to kind of put a bow in it, the offense needs to take a hard look in the mirror at, like, what they're capable of. And I think, like, you got to go down swinging with love, man. Like, you can't. I mean, he made some throws in this game that should have been caught. Wicks. Um, and I don't think he, you know, I said, I wasn't like, it wasn't like he was, I mean, he had a silly fumble, a goof at the end, but I don't know.

16:30This is not, this one's not on him for me. It's on the floor and some of those receivers. Um, on the flip side, the Eagles, she, I posted this, this was their worst offensive success rate of the sirianni hurts era wow couldn't run the ball um the under center stuff was not working through a lot of this game play action outside of the bomb to davante not effective i kind of felt it's funny because i I was very mad at Green Bay. To your point, I actually didn't feel like with Philadelphia, like there's obviously something else they should be doing. I thought the Packers defense played really well.

17:21And the Packers defense, this is why this game was kind of hard. I think the Packers defense also is like built in a way to make them competitive with Philadelphia. I mean, I guess if you're Philly, you probably look at how the Packers defense got ran on and you wonder why you can't like last week. But I think that was more – I think this is – the Packers defense we saw last night is the one that I believe exists, like where this is a team that can stop the run without selling out. It plays a lot of – I think both teams in this game played a ton of cover six, it felt like. And they got a really good pass rush.

17:53I mean, Micah Parsons is yet another game where it's like it's not going to show up on the stash sheet, but Hurts was like running from him all night long. I don't know. Do you come out of this panic mode about the Eagles offense or like what's your take on it? No, I mean, I think like you, I walked away and I said it earlier in this show is how it felt like the Packers weren't able to do the things they wanted to do. And the Eagles were kind of it wasn't it didn't make me happy. It wasn't something that I liked or encouraged or rooted for. But the Eagles were doing things like it was kind of going according to their game plan, which honestly might just be the fact that we are watching these two teams play each other.

18:35if that makes sense because the the Eagles didn't make a whole bunch of mistakes they just didn't have success the Packers had a bunch of mistakes combined with them not having success and it also just seemed like watching Jalen Hurts relative to Jordan Love is like Jalen Hurts seems to be it appears that he's in control in making decisions that he wants to make on he's not scrambling excessively or trying to force throws in order to avoid sacks. He just seems to be a little bit more in control. Ultimately, they weren't good offensively, but it seemed more consistent with how they wanted this game to be played.

19:17And then when they got their opportunity, they immediately followed that Saquon play with a shot to steal the game. It just felt like they were sitting in wait, like waiting for the opportunity to do the things that we know they're capable of doing, which I don't think is good. I wouldn't encourage it, but that's what it felt like. Yeah. I mean, you contrasted again with those offenses in the NFC that are just like rolling and it just feels like everything is a lot harder for Philadelphia. But again, I do. I did feel a lot of it had to do with the Packers defense. I mean, you know, I mentioned the pass rush.

19:50I thought looking at my notes here, Walker, Wyatt and Williams were spectacular against the run. it felt like every I mean uh uh Quay oh my god felt like he was in the backfield on every run um and I think Wyatt had some TFLs too so I I do think that the Packers run defense if I'm a Packers fan it's a shame because it's a waste of a defensive gem but that was such a concern coming out of the Panthers game watching this they were just extremely fundamentally sound and I thought the spine of the defense in particular was excellent against the run against philadelphia's i think i think quay was the guy responsible for saquon on that pass too unfortunately like that sucks because it should be uh a stop there but worst case scenarios like it should be like a short gain and a tackle but it's saquon it turns to a 40 yard gain that sets up the game winning play i think all of the eagles big pass plays were um because of the attention paid to AJ Brown is the other thing.

20:57Yeah, he's not getting targets, but the Smith one was the safety comes down. And then he had the deep ball to Goddard where Brown was being bracketed. And they had that almost clenching play where he threw that out to Devontae Smith and they rolled the cloud coverage to AJ despite the fact that the passing strength was to the other side. Yeah, he's still having an impact on the game, whether it's catches or not. So ultimately, come out of this feeling, I would say my big takeaways, the Eagles defense looks better. They're trending in the right direction. That matters. The Packers offense needs to change.

21:49I just feel that pretty strongly because this has now been a couple weeks. it's just what they're doing right now is not nearly it's there's obviously it's not explosive enough but it's just not efficient enough you can't keep playing for third down like this even when they would play get to third and short and jordan love would complete like a super tight window throw that was barely caught on third down and i felt like matt lafleur was like my work is done here. No, it shouldn't be that hard on third. I don't I've I like I've always liked him. I don't know what's going on this season. It's really tough to watch.

22:27Oh, so finally, why are you rostering like a hurt kicker who could barely make kicks? I don't like I know there's not a lot of great kickers around the NFL. Did they have a guy younger guy who was making them? I don't know. That is bizarre to me. No part. That was one of the worst field goal attempts I've ever seen, by the way it was very bad it was there they obviously would have been better off trying the the uh stanford band play or something anything else other than that that was it was really sad okay um sure the surely we'll have more to talk about with the uh with the eagles offense in the coming days but i'm not totally panicking there let's take a quick break and talk about one of the teams that I mentioned and then the Indianapolis Colts, specifically one Colt.

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24:34Ask for O 'Reilly Veriscan today. O, O, O, O 'Reilly. Auto Parts All right, we're back. Your winner for the week as you shed your jacket. It's hot in here. So many lights. Oh, my winner for the week, JT. Jonathan Taylor and his hop, hop, hop, hop dance. I mean, the cool thing about having standalone games is they normally get a lot of attention. But when you have a standalone 930 game, we forget about how awesome it was by the time we get to Monday and start talking about it. But I think this is was an impactful game. It started to reignite the MVP conversation for Jonathan Taylor. But it's so rare that you have a player who I mean, it's rare at this point to have a running back be the engine of the offense in the way the Saquon was last year.

25:34and when you have a team that when they struggle their go-to play is give it to the running back when they're behind they give it to the running back they throw it to him they hand it to him his impact on this game is like one of the single best or one of the best single game performances so far this season and for him to put the game away in overtime too it was just an incredible performance also when you are the focal point of the game plan of the opponent and then the quarterback is struggling in this particular game. Daniel Jones made a couple really impressive plays, but he also was turning the ball over and was clear that they weren't going to win because of him.

26:14And Jonathan Taylor just is able to avoid people and set up his blocks in the backfield. I don't want to take anything away from the offensive line. They were good also, but this was very particularly a Jonathan Taylor, just all-timer type of game. 228 rushing yards after contact which is the most this is from ngs by a game and a rusher in the past nine years wow um obviously a lot of that was on the big gigantic fourth quarter run which is a great example of like you know with running back sometimes you're you we always struggle with how to quantify what they're doing versus what the blocks are setting up how much is on the running back and ngs has that rush yards over expected stat but that that that was like the mvp moment mvp comment we'll talk about that in a second where you look at that you're like that's just the back being a special human right obviously it was um i mean at one point i wanted to take a screenshot because it was just like a brick wall of bodies in front of him and then he bounced it outside um the mvp stuff okay so he's in the item it seems like for the most part people are on him stafford and drake may at this point am i leaving out anyone obvious okay before we get to that so i was thinking you know obviously saquon was part of this conversation last year so i looked up his numbers compared to saquon uh through week 10 he's got almost 200 yards more than saquon did he has 1139 saquon had 991 um they actually are tied in rushing yards over expected the stat i mentioned but one massive difference he's got a much better not much better but a better success rate than saquon more efficient and then he's actually doubles him up over doubles them up in EPA per carry on the season.

28:11So if you thought Saquon had a case last year, you absolutely need to think Jonathan Taylor does, especially because, you know, Saquon was going against Allen Lamar. Now that said, Dominique, I do believe Stafford and May have really strong cases. Yeah. In season. Those are two arguably best teams in their conferences. You could argue that. Between the three of them right now, and don't just pick the back to be saucy. No, I'm not. I wish I could be saucy and pick the back. I don't think I've ever been described as saucy before. But I would go – I'd definitely go with Matt – yeah, I mean, I think it's Matt Stafford and Drake May.

28:57Drake May is definitely overachieved. That team is overachieved this season. So it kind of tends for me to lean that way. but Matt Stafford's putting up absurd numbers and might have the best team in football. But yeah, I don't know if this is like annoying or too semantic key for you, but I just have a problem with the way the award is named because like, I badly want to make an argument for Jonathan. That's what I read when I said you're being fuzzy. I knew you wanted to. Because I think that he is the most outstanding player this season. Yes. Like the, the NFL player of the year, I could get behind that.

29:38But once you put the word value in it. Then you think about like, well, John the Danter was on this team last, you know, it's like. Yeah, right. And I've seen those, some of those tweets too, where it's like, maybe Daniel Jones is super valuable because this team is actually better because they have a competent quarterback. It's like, no, now we're getting crazy. But yeah. The value thing obviously always comes into this discussion. Yeah. I look at it as just the best player, dominant, very good team. When it came down to Alan Lamar, it was a lot of who's doing the most with less. If you go that angle, it should be Drake May.

30:15There's big moments on the schedule that I think could determine this. Taylor's got the Chiefs. I think the Chiefs' run defense has been kind of sussed. There's some opportunities there. Drake May gets the Bills again and then the Ravens on Week 16. that's a game oh he's got the giants on uh december 1st at night is that wait is that a monday no december 1st is this the game no no that's the game we're in oh shoot so drake may's got the giants monday night football we're gonna be there it's gonna be cold so that's a big one for him so i think he's got some quote-unquote showcase games left and then obviously this ram seahawks game this weekend is going to be massive for matthew stafford but he's also got the bucks at night, which is another big one.

31:00And then the final game of the year, Ram Seahawks at night. I could decide this. So going down to the wire, I believe it has to go down to the wire because I don't think any of the three have an obvious case at this point. I know that's a lame thing to say, but it's just how I feel. If you made me pick, I would probably pick Stafford just because I think right now, but a lot of football left to be played. All right. Jonathan Taylor, you were awesome. Colts defense too you talked about sauce that's what i was focused on on monday on nfl live really good lots of man coverage was really impressed by how he um sorted through some of the stuff atlanta was throwing to him when they played man like the stacks and stuff so yeah oh the rams were my winner so i guess that is a good segue from stafford um so the rams are sticking with the three tight ends stuff i think that's really interesting um because it is like they're doing what a lot of the good offenses are around the league, which is they're putting tight ends in the field, getting defenses in base, and they're just shredding them through the air.

32:03Absolutely the right strategy against a San Francisco defense that's missing the backer, Fred Warner. When they played 13, which they played a ton of in this game, they got them in base 90 % of the time. They threw 11 passes, an average.70 EPA per play. Wow. Nearly 10 yards of play. the catch the tight ends had 10 catches i think what strikes me the most dominique is they just kind of found their change up right like

32:37sean mcveigh throughout his career has changed this offense so many times in so many interesting ways always with the goal of how can i create run past conflict how can i find a way to dictate to defenses and this just feels like his newest move um i don't think it'll be as effective against the seahawks we don't have to get into that but against certain defenses is absolutely the right thing to do and yeah the dictating the way of play is an important thing especially coming off of a conversation about the packers and the eagles is like it does feel like normally like the default is for defenses to react to offenses i don't feel like that's the way that the Eagles play necessarily offensively.

33:20It's like they're more waiting for you to tell them the way that you want them to attack you. And they may listen, they may not listen, but that it feels like more of a feeling out process. I think your point about the Rams is that that terminology just stands out to me because it does feel week to week that they have a opinion of where their advantage is and how they are going to attack it. And they have personnel and a coach that's able to figure out ways to attack it. I know that in our circles, much is made of Puka and Nakua's ability to block, but I think that having three tight end sets with Devontae, who's a big receiver, and Puka, who's a really physical receiver, the advantages that you have, depending on what the defense puts out there, are numerous.