Parsons of Interest: Micah and the Most Fascinating People of the 2025 Season

30:43Okay, we both chose two coaches. I'm going to do those next. You chose one that I thought was interesting. This was unexpected for me because it's not a team that I think anyone has as a contender, but you chose Aaron Glenn. Yeah. So explain to me what your thinking was here. So I think one reason also people might not be thinking about this is because you haven't really heard about the Jets this offseason, which kind of in a similar vein to the Patriots, just like, thank God. Like, I don't want to hear any more drama, no more nonsense. Let's stick to football, get through an offseason without any, you know, theatrics and try to be competitive when the season starts.

31:15So I thought that was a great first step. It's just like bringing them back to a place of like some kind of stability ground level. Like, all right, now we can just function as a football team. We also look at this Jets depth chart. They're a talented team. This is a very talented offensive line. I was kind of hoping the Patriots would be in on Armand Membu and flipping them or anything like that. But I mean, Olu and Armand has to be one of the best offensive tackle pairings in the league. Elijah Vera Tucker, obviously a very talented player as well. Stacked backfield. Brees Hall, we already know what he brings.

31:44I really like Isaiah Davis actually is pretty sneaky one for me. Braylon Allen, like they've got a punishing backfield they can lean on. And Aaron Glenn, he pointed out that somebody asked him, you know, oh, now that you're in a passing league. He says, well, you know, the Super Bowl champions ran the ball quite a bit, didn't they? And, you know, yeah, sure. There's something to that, I guess. But and then the defense, we know what the Jets defense is going to be the back end. They got a little bit of Ravens DNA, you know, not never bad when you have a little bit of a Raven structure in the back.

32:13Sauce Gardner is going to be there for a while. And that defensive line is going to be terrifying as always. Retain Jamie and Sherwood. Like it's a very talented team overall. Yeah. Then you get the quarterback and wide receiver outside of Garrett Wilson. And for me, I'm thinking, okay, I can see Aaron Glenn really being the kind of coach who can put a team out there. That's going to drag you into the mud. And it's going to be down to the last possession because just nobody's scoring. Like nobody's scoring. It's not fun to watch, but at least they're keeping themselves in games. But the whole thing about like when he compared them to the Eagles is, okay, Jalen Hurts may not be Mahomes, but he is a respectable quarterback who minimizes mistakes for the most part and makes the plays that are there.

32:54Like that's what helps this whole thing run. You don't have that in Justin Fields. You have a quarterback who holds onto the ball, doesn't read defense particularly well, and I don't know how many days he had completing over 50 % of his passes in training camp. Based on Twitter, it wasn't very many. And if teams just say, all right, we're literally going to get all of our attention over to Garrett Wilson, where does this quarterback you know where does he go as someone who's already going to struggle on his own so it's going to be fascinating to see how far Aaron Glenn can get this team because I do think like he is a different type of coach in that team but with no passing game in the modern league I don't know how just how far you can actually finish in these games where yeah you may have the last possession but do you want Justin Fields on you know as the guy who has the possession last I respectfully I do not it's an interesting team because I think you're right and saying the bones are there of what could be something good.

33:44The offensive line, I mean, pump the brakes a little bit on Pashano Membu, Membu's face now, but it does look on paper like a really improved unit continuously. I thought they were a little bit unfairly criticized last year with Rodgers at quarterback. And then defensively, there's still talent on that side of the ball. So I think for Glenn, what I find interesting, and you would have a lot of insight into this after what happened with Gerard Mayo is there's no expectation for him to win the division or even compete for a playoff spot but does it feel like they're trending in the right direction are the players competing under him is he avoiding game management errors is there like a sense of cohesiveness um and you know he comes from detroit where under dan campbell they were bad year one and then they were still not you know like a plant but they were they improved but there was this sense there early on that things were headed in the right direction and the players were playing hard and the culture was being instilled and they were finding like the future you know building blocks of the team i think for glenn like that's the challenge this year can it feel like it did they're better than that lions team by the way early on they have better players um the bad lions team before they got better obviously but um you know that he has to keep it's an interesting challenge for a coach the one that mayo failed at which is keeping a train running that everyone knows is not going anywhere this year it's a unique coaching situation and also what happens like when things start to go bad if they do kind of get off the rails and they lose some games early like that's the biggest test for a rookie head coach that took, we're mentioning Gerard Mayo, that's where things really started to fall off and where it started to get worse by the week where he couldn't really say the things publicly that got people to retain faith.

35:44If anything, it created a lot more panic to the point where by the end of the year, it's like, this is not something that can continue to go on. So if Aaron Glenn and his team do struggle early on, can he still retain that buy-in? Is everybody still locked in and saying, yeah, this may be a lost season if it gets to that point, but we're still going to be biting people's kneecaps and doing all that stuff. And then you look at them in week 16 and you're saying, this is still a team that like wants to win games and is playing for their coach. In the situation they're in, are they trending in the right direction?

36:11I think so. Do I think they're going to be a playoff team? Probably not, but I think it is significant for a team that has dealt with so much dysfunction and chaos in recent seasons to have a coach where even when things don't go well, there is still significant faith from the roster, front office, and from the fan base that there is something to look forward to. I'm going to be broken record on this with the Jets, but if they want to drag teams to hell, they got to run the ball. Well, that's it. You know, I want, I bet it doesn't feel I better see you have 10 plus carries game, my guy. Harrison Phillips acquisition, sneaky, interesting for them, by the way, to beef up that defensive line next to Quinn and Williams.

36:46All right. My coach is, I think this one's a little bit more obvious because he is probably one of the single most, this is interesting, but I would argue he's one of the most important people in football this year. that's al gold and the defensive coordinator of the cincinnati bangles you don't need me to tell you this any fan on the street or person sitting at the bar could say the same thing if this defense is just i won't even say average if they can finish taylor as like the 22nd defense in football then this is a playoff team can they i don't know um he's largely been given the same players that lou anabrumo had with the addition of shamar stewart um demetrius knight is playing linebacker for them guys were hurt last year in secondary so you have guys coming back uh you know i've talked about this though it really is just can he get some of these young players to make fewer mistakes to play more you know fundamentally sound football the early results in the preseason were obviously pretty scary i read an article uh this uh paul dainer does a great job of covering the bangles for the athletic and i was reading about that game and the bangles were all saying well it was purposely vanilla and we didn't prepare for like the the washington commanders run game and and we've been i swear we've been good in practice and i was like i i mean guys were just missing tackle like I don't know what to say like I I am very skeptical but um you know this is Golden's got I would say just like one of the more pivot like his what he does is like one of the pivot points of the entire NFL season to me and also wasn't the whole issue last year that like things were overly complicated so the young players were kind of swimming they didn't know what they were doing so like how do you kind of balance that do you just get to the point where you just are almost bare bones with this new group or do you kind of I wonder what the identity is actually going to look like for this unit and kind of balancing that because you don't want to overload your young players you want to let them feel comfortable maybe build as the season goes but what exactly does that trajectory look like and what do you think they're actually going to look like once guys get comfortable ideally and they start to kind of establish an identity or are we all just kind of well they're certainly going to play a lot of less a lot less man coverage than he did at notre dame because they just don't have the horses back there um you know i i think he is gonna have to find ways to create pressure because outside of trey hendrickson nobody was getting pressure last year and i think for me when i look at the depth chart the back end is where i have the most optimism perhaps because and i've said this before but There's young players who I think have looked good at points.

39:38Dax Hill, players who had some injuries last year. DJ Turner, Cam Taylor-Britt, the cornerbacks. I think there's something there. But I worry a lot about the spine in particular of this group going from DT to linebacker to safety. And, yeah, it's a tall task for him. All right. Let's wrap up some players. Okay. You can go first. This was so, so you chose Terry McLaurin. I don't know if it was before or after he did it. I think it was literally minutes before. It might have been like, because it was very soon after. Okay. Do you still find him as interesting now that he is definitely going to be Washington?

40:31I don't think it was ever going to leave. Yeah. I didn't think he was going to. I wasn't sure what deal was actually going to get done a little less because I thought that was kind of the juicy part of like, how exactly is this going to get figured out? But now that we've actually gotten to the point where, yes, he's coming back. My big concern is, OK, what does that look like? Because he missed the entire offseason. And one thing we know, especially from guys like receivers, we're running a lot, soft tissue injuries. And Terry is going to be 30 this year. Those are significant. And those are things that you have to look out for for guys who don't participate in training camp or any of these things.

41:04and a big part of Terry's game that makes him so scary is his unbelievable juice both vertically and after the catch like the number of times he was able to bail out this offense by just being an outstanding athlete and obviously a very talented and refined receiver it was pretty significant and this is a team that has big expectations obviously you got Debo Samuel so maybe a better wide receiver too although I am skeptical over what he brings at this point in his career Zach I know is they're like middle of the field reliable veteran all that they've got an interesting backfield, but still like this was the Jaden Daniels and Terry McLaurin show.

41:36And even with Debo Samuel, I don't know that he can be the guy if Terry, for whatever reason, has to miss time. So I'm just, and I also don't think Cliff Kingsbury is the kind of guy that can elevate his players enough to get to the point where all these other guys can really fit optimally. So that's why Terry's interesting for me is I feel like so much of this offense is still going to be on his and Jaden Daniels back. And as he's getting older, as you know, again, missing time. I hope that he stays healthy, but you know, that's a lot to put on a guy in his position, even with this new contract.

42:07Yeah, that's a good point. I think that you can't understand. He can't understand how important he is in this offense for all the reasons that you articulated the Debo Samuel Samuel acquisition does not work. Terry McLaurin is not on the field in my opinion, right? Like Jay Daniels last year faced the second most quarters coverage in all of football defenses were very clearly wanting to put a roof on this thing uh with mclaurin and the entire premise i think of of devo in there and i think he can be a great quarter speeder particularly like working the flats getting yards after the catch is if there's fear of the deep ball so that he can work underneath so that he can add to the screen game so that they can use you know he had the jet sweep in the preseason um outside of mclaurin there's no one really on this roster who's proven in terms of like stretching the field and winning over 15 plus yards the way mclaurin did last year so they had getting him back was crucial there's getting him back and then there's like you said seeing what he looks like he's such a pro i feel like you know he'll be fine but you know he's an older receiver which was the reason behind the hesitation i think that they had for the contract Ultimately, it's not that onerous.

43:28But yeah, I think he's pivotal. Like, boy, I don't know. Without him, I would.

43:37There's you could argue he's one of the most important wide receiver ones in the NFL because of the nature of the offense and the way the depth chart looks behind him. Yeah, I mean, I was at joint practice for the Patriots and commanders when Terry wasn't there. I was more focused on the offense. My colleagues who were focused on the commander's offense and the Patriots defense were like, Like, yeah, you know, Zach Ertz has given them some trouble. Debo made a couple catches. But, like, there's just no one in this receiving core. And even in the preseason, like, they had K.J. Osborne. One of their top guys was rotating with the starters.

44:07He's not on the team anymore. So that whole wide receiver depth chart is very scary. And at its full strength, I think this can be a very fun offense to watch once again. But like you said, you take Terry out of this equation, things look very different. And I don't think people are nearly as afraid of trying to keep a cap on things. I think you can play more, man. And there's the fear of Jaden running, obviously, and that is always significant. But it just really not limits what you can do, but it just it's going to give you much more basic pictures from the defense and things that are going to be tougher to beat when you don't have that true number one on the field.

44:39All right. My guy, I think this is a pretty chalky one, is my final guy is Aiden Hutchinson. um for linear i feel like the micah parsons one addition has only accentuated his importance because this is in arms now that i realized by the way i picked a few guys coming back from injuries right like christian mccaffrey aiden hutchinson i guess that's part of why they're interesting and steph diggs wow i did i think guys on contract with contract disputes so i feel like we both had some all of my guys are coming back from injury digs i guess that's why i think thing because I want to see what it looks like because we know what it looks like when Aiden Hutchinson is healthy.

45:18He was a monster last year. I would, I maintain that the Lions are probably in the Super Bowl if Aiden Hutchinson doesn't go down. Before he went down, he was first quarterback hit, second in pressure, his first in pass rush win. And, you know, the Lions defense, I think, still has the potential to, I had them as a top 10 defense. I like the additions that they've added a lot. But, you know, there's some injuries on the interior of the defensive line and outside of Hutchinson, this is not a good pass rush route. Still, they need him to not live that blitz on every down life. He's back. He is fully back.

45:55Fortunately for them, he did get hurt pretty early in the season. He's got to hit the ground running again. I mean, Green Bay week one, man, like this is like, especially I think given what's going on in the NFC North right now. And this is a defensive line that no longer has Terrell Williams, which is pretty sneakily important. This is a guy that Dan Campbell is very fond of. Legendary defensive line coach is very well established and has a long track record of success. Aiden Hutchinson gushed about him and everything he was learning early on in their time together. And when Hutchinson went down, a big thing that people kind of attested to the ability for the Lions to still have success up front was Terrell Williams and being able to pick stunts that he uses and just maximizing guys using the best ability, putting them in position to succeed, all that good jargon.

46:42So I'm upset that we were robbed of a full season of Terrell Williams, who has just mentored so many successful, bigger edge rushers and Aiden Hutchinson. But now, not only like you said, is it not quite the room that it was last season, but also you have a very important piece that was kind of flying under the radar last season, who's no longer there to elevate them, which just puts even more on Hutchinson's plate. how do you regard this lions defense by the way because i so i did the rankings i think i had them sixth or seventh i can't remember but i was a little bit higher than some other folks who did defensive rankings i mean i you know the limbic neil injury concerning and they lost on zurike they drafted tylic williams they really needed to improve their run defense it was sneakily an issue but like i like jack campbell's an ascending player i'm just going you know backwards um i I think Terry and Arnold's an ascending player.

47:32Obviously Brian branch is already straws a star. This is one of the best safety duos in the entire NFL. They added DJ Reed, who's just like this eternally competent veteran. And it's registrar comes back from injury. Like they're just like, I feel like they're so talented at every level. Am I overrating them in your mind? I don't think so. Yeah, sorry. No, you're good. I, cause I think the backend really is impressive. The really, the biggest concern for me is where is all of the pass rush going to come yeah like you said they got run stoppers like dj reader and tiley Williams that could be a lot of fun i love tiley Williams coming out that's a good deal on the inside but like there's not a lot of speed they've got a lot of bigger bodies not a ton of like twitchy explosiveness and i mean we've seen it you can build from the back to the front as long as you've got the horses really like dj reed he's a good player like they have the players i think to be able to minimize minimize any damage like Guys aren't just going to be taking shots necessarily.

48:28The quarterbacks might have quite a bit of time to throw, and you can have a talented secondary, but ain't nobody covering for like four seconds. So if they have to manufacture the pass rush, if it's just Aiden Hutchinson having a career season, whatever it is, they have that potential. I like their linebackers as well, but if there's no pass rush, I just think it's very hard to be one of those premier units if guys are able to get comfortable in the pocket, especially in that division. Yeah, Kelvin Shepard, their new defensive coordinator, are very fortunate to have Oshinson back in the mix. It makes his life a lot easier.

49:00Taylor, this has been fun. I am joining you on your podcast to talk about one of the Patriots games and their upcoming schedule. Where can folks generally find your work? Yes, you can find me on YouTube over at Patriots Press Pass. It's where I do my show, Patriots Daily. And if you want to see any of my written stuff, if people are still reading these days, you can check out clnsmedia.com. And Mina, thank you so much for having me again. All right, we're going to take a quick break, then come back with Seth Wickersham to talk about some of these quarterbacks. As you know, managing maintenance, repair, and operations is never easy.

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51:27You can get up to$3 million in coverage, and some policies start as low as$30 a month. Ethos has also earned strong customer feedback with a 4.8 out of 5-star rating on Trustpilot based on more than 4 ,000 reviews. Take 10 minutes to get covered today with life insurance through Ethos. Get your free quote at ethos.com slash sports. That's E-T-H-O-S dot com slash sports. Application times may vary. Rates may vary. Trust pilot rating as of June 1st, 2025. All right. So this episode is going to continue with the most interesting players of 2025. But now we are going to talk about the quarterbacks.

52:08And to do that, I am bringing my friend who's kind of becoming the quarterback guy right now because he has this fantastic book about quarterbacks and everything that it takes to become a quarterback and he talked to unbelievable access in this book it's called american kings a biography of the quarterback seth wickersham thank you for joining the show hey it's great to see you um so the book comes out september 9th by the way and you guys can pre-order it now and i'm sure you've heard seth talking about it already but the reason i chose this particular episode to have you on is because two of the quarterbacks that i chose as the most interesting quarterbacks of 2025 are ones that you really spent a lot of time thinking about and they're discussed in this book um and those two quarterbacks are well actually you know what i'm not going to spoil them all so i chose four quarterbacks seth um and again this is interesting so this is not like the best quarterbacks or the worst quarterbacks or even the most important this is just ones where i think like this could go either way and how it goes is going to really have an impact on this season and the first one i chose is one of the guys that you you focused on and you spent a lot of time talking about him with his coach and that's bo nicks who is the quarterback of the denver broncos seth um for each quarterback i want to talk to you about kind of what they did well where they need to get better but first do you agree with my premise here that bo nicks is fascinating because and the reason why from my viewpoint which is looking at the league and uh just kind of analyzing teams and X's and O's of it all, the team is stacked.

53:40The Denver Broncos are right now, I think, one of the best rosters in football. I had them as the best defense in the NFL. So because of that, Bo Nix is inherently fascinating because he kind of sets the ceiling on how far this thing could go. Yeah. And I spent a lot of time with Sean Payton as he evaluated Bo Nix and, you know, kind of came up with this proprietary personal analytics formula that people can read about that led him to him. And I agree with you that he's fascinating for a couple of reasons. Number one, there's the entire like sophomore slump thing. And, you know, that's a team that can't afford to have him have that.

54:18Now, when I brought that up to Sean Payton, like I saw him three weeks ago, he was like, that's bull the entire sophomore slump. That's, that's ridiculous. It doesn't exist. I'll prove it, you know, that type of thing. But the simple fact is that defenses will have an entire off season to study him and to study what he doesn't do well and to try to exploit that. And, you know, can you stay one step ahead of when you're the play caller and the quarterback, can you stay one step ahead of defenses? I mean, that will be interesting. I think that the other thing, of course, that's interesting about Bo Nix is that, you know, they, he, he did a great job last year, helped him get to the playoffs, but didn't play great in the playoff game.

55:00And, you know, they, they scored seven points and that was that. And so I think that even though he was a rookie, and I think that rookie years or most of our quarterbacks are mostly about survival, not a whole lot you can take away from it. But even though, you know, he did a lot of really impressive things this year, the pressure is on him. And of course, one of the most interesting aspects of that is that Sean Payton is applying a lot of the pressure. I mean, he says in front of a microphone to anybody who will listen how great he thinks Bo Nix is going to be. And so all of that stuff to me is really...

55:36It lends itself to him definitely being one of the most interesting quarterbacks this year. I'm always fascinated by coaches who really gas up their quarterbacks because he is gassy. He really is. It can work and it's like a confidence building tactic, but I think it can also backfire. I don't know. I think about Miami where Mike McDaniel was really like Tua's biggest cheerleader. It felt like from the outside, he was a catalyst in him getting the big contract there. And then we've kind of seen some of Tua's limitation. i don't think too is the reason why the team has struggled per se or the only reason why but it feels like maybe it backfired a little bit to some extent like do you think there's any risk that pay before we get again we're talking about bonix yeah risk that he takes and like selling him so hard to the public absolutely because i mean first of all sean payton is like the last of the parcells guys right and so you've had this entire ethos that's gone on for you know 40 years where you just don't do that stuff.

56:33And I think that Sean, he's one of the few guys in the NFL, I think, who kind of likes the performance aspect of being a head coach, whereas like the Belichick methodology beat that out of everybody. But he likes it. And I think that he wants that team thinking they're a Super Bowl team. And he wants Bo Nix thinking he's a Super Bowl quarterback and he'll deal with it. But you set yourself up. I mean, they lose a game and Bo Bo Nix gets throttled, which, look, it's probably going to happen. You know, you make it easy on the defense to say, you know, we watched those clips of him getting pumped up, and this is what we did to him.

57:11So I want to talk about what Bo Nix did do. You alluded to him. I think everybody was pretty surprised by the rookie season, especially after the first few weeks were kind of awful. Like week one against Seattle, I mean, I was watching that and thinking, oh my god like he might not be quarterback next year obviously you're not a rookie quarterback you're trying to take with a grain of salt but he did improve a lot over the course of the season what would you say was the biggest thing that he improved at or the thing that impressed you the most his rookie season by the end of the year well okay so there's two things I think the first one is that you know he he got the ball out of his hand fast and I think that that's key for any quarterback period.

57:51Tom Brady always got rid of the ball fast. I don't understand why coaches spend so much time in dark film rooms away from their families, although that part of it might be on purpose. But they do all this work, and then you see some of the most uncreative plays ever, and sure enough, they blame the players. I mean, you should be figuring out ways to design the most creative screen pass we've ever seen. And Sean does a lot of that stuff. And I think that like the second thing is that obviously he just gained a ton of confidence. Like you're right. That first month of the season, I watched him a lot.

58:25And I mean, you know, it was like this entire, like, remember Sean, Sean let me in on his proprietary formula for Bo Nick. So I've got this before you watched that. Yeah. I've got a book writing on this thing, working out. And, you know, I'm watching him going like, Oh my God, like he has no one around him. He's out of the pocket and he's missing wide open receivers. And I think he settled down and he proved that he could make like incredibly decisive accurate throws under duress. And that, I think, you know, if there's anything going forward, I mean, that's a talent and a skill set that, you know, you can improve on it once you're in the NFL.

59:02But for the most part, you know, you are who you are. And I think that, like, he showed that he can make quick decisions, get rid of the ball, and deliver the ball in pretty tight windows. Yeah, I think your assessment is in line with mine, which is I felt like he showed by the end of the year He could be a distributor in this offense, which is what Peyton really wanted out of him. He also protected the football, right? He didn't really put it in harm's way a lot by the end of the season, which again is something that impressed me. I thought he got better at the beginning of the year. Really nothing downfield was working.

59:32But by the end of the season, including the very first play of the playoff game, I felt like he was picking his spots and pushing the ball downfield. I'd say as far as areas where he has to get better, that has to be more of the offense. And I'm sure Broncos fans are saying, well, who's he, who are you going to throw it to? Okay. But that, I think that is part of it. He has to be better against the blitz. That's something he really struggled with both in the first and the second half of the season. In fact, in the second half of the season, he was 29th in QBR against the blitz. So I suspect that's going to be something Peyton works on him, works with him a lot on.

1:00:05I mean, is there anything else that you felt maybe from talking to Peyton that you think this is an area where they're, they're focused on improving this coming year? Well, and I think the other aspect of that is like, and this is the same for any quarterback, is the people around him have to play well. And like, so three weeks ago, I was with Sean. They were practicing against the 49ers and we were watching tape of the practice. And Knicks threw the ball on kind of like a seam over the middle to the tight end, bending inside and fit it between like four 49er defenders. And I don't try to, when I'm watching film with coaches, I generally try to say little because this is their thing.

1:00:44It's not my thing. But I just said that was an amazing throw and catch. And Sean just kind of huffed and puffed. And he was like, damn it. And then the next meeting was the offensive skill position meeting. And he took the entire meeting over. And he spent an hour talking to all of the offensive skill players about route running. Because every receiver on that play ran the wrong route. And because of that, the tight end would have probably suffered what would have been a game-ending hit after making that catch. And so I think there's all of these things that we don't know as football observers that once you learn more about how offenses operate and how these guys scheme, become these invisible things that end up sending huge signals as to how successful people are.

1:01:31Yeah. Well, they have made some changes. It's mostly the same group, right? But you've got Evan Ingram, and they're hoping that the run game will be better. They extended Cortland Sutlin, and I thought that was pretty key for them. I'm optimistic about Troy Franklin this coming year. I loved how they used Marvin Mims in the second half of the season. So it's an interesting group of players, but you're right. I guess I want to edit myself a little bit, too, when I said the team is stacked. the steel players aren't the greatest in in denver but the offensive line is incredible and the defense is incredible so some of it i think to your point is about on the rest of them stepping up as well um i mean but i think that you're kind of hitting on something which is like bonix doesn't have to be patrick mahomes for this team to be good like he just needs to be a little better right like at throwing on the run a little bit better and making plays a little bit better against the blitz a little bit better at pushing the ball downfield because the floor i think the floor of this offense has actually proven itself to be pretty high yeah and i also think that you know when sean payton was a quarterback and he played in the nfl as a replacement player what he could not do was the multitasking like and and when he scouted quarterbacks and especially breeze like the thing that blew him away about breeze was not that he had this great arm.

1:02:53It was just that like, that guy could manage everything and do it quickly and efficiently and smartly. And Sean knew that like that right there is a differentiator and he can coach it even if he couldn't do it. And I think that like, that will be interesting because again, you know, you're the, the AFC West is a tough division and there are some really good defenses in that division and you're getting some really good defensive coaches. And I think that Like, again, they've had an entire season to study him. And, you know, Denver hasn't started the season well, you know, under Sean Payton. Like, they rally, but they haven't started the season well.

1:03:33And I think that, like, getting off to a good start is key. And that means, you know, Bo Nix playing well, being in command of the offense, and being able to get him into good plays to exploit these things that he's seeing. Yeah. The sophomore something is another. I'm interested because they did he Peyton really kind of figured out the plays that Knicks executed. Well, I mean, they were just constantly rolling him out like, and you feel like defenses are going to key in on some of that. So constantly iterating. It's the sophomore slump to me is less about like the Knicks. Oh, they know they know who he is now and more like, no, they know what they like to run with him.

1:04:08Okay, cool. What's your counter move to that? Okay, next quarterback I want to talk about, I think is fascinating because I think he's kind of like the hardest quarterback to pin down from a ranking perspective in the NFL. And that's Kyler Murray.

1:04:25I feel like nobody agrees on Kyler Murray, Seth. And I think part of the reason no one agrees, and I've talked about this a bit this summer, is the variance is so high with him. The high end is so high and the low end can look so low. But I think he's interesting because I think the team is finally like rebuilt around him and also like this is kind of put up like he's contract i'm looking at that thing they could potentially move on from him they adopted not to draft a quarterback so before we get into that what is your view from your assessment from talking to folks of kyla more very the former number one overall draft pick well i think it's exactly like you know sometimes the internal assessments of guys, you know, from GMs or scouts, whatever it might be from coaches is so different than the public perception.

1:05:16And with Kyler Murray, it mirrors it almost exactly. And that's what I think that like, look, the things we're talking about with Kyler are the things that like now, even now are the same things we talked about when he was coming out of college because he's got an incredible arm. He's got incredible processing speed. And then, you know, you have this physical ability, which is unparalleled, at least since Michael Vick, maybe beyond Michael Vick. You know, leadership, I think he's gotten a lot better. There's probably still some work to do there, you know, in terms of like body language in certain moments.

1:05:49But like, look, he's improved quite a bit. The question is like, is there a ceiling on a quarterback who's that tall? And, you know, I kind of think that my gut tells me that, yes, there is. and that if they're going to continue with him, we're kind of in that different range where you have to pay him quite a bit less and, you know, surround him with everybody. Kind of almost a little bit. I don't want to like, it's not quite like this, but a little bit like the Seahawks did with Russell in the early part of his career. Yeah, and there's some similarities in their games, I would say. It is, I think you hit on something there, which is it does feel like we are having same, we've kind of having the same conversations.

1:06:34I mean, he's been in the league now. He was around in 2019. So it's been six years. And he's 28 and he's, you know, had multiple injuries. So on one hand, I think if you're a Cardinals fan, it's frustrating that maybe he hasn't ever, he hasn't like taken the leap, but then you see him take the leap in like games. So that's kind of what, and then it all nets out to, I was just kind of pulling a bunch of stats to kind of see. He was nice in QBR last year. If you actually look at the numbers, they're pretty good. I just think the lows are low. Last year, something that jumped out to me watching him, Seth, I thought he looked really dynamic and explosive and more comfortable running coming off of the injury.

1:07:18I feel like that just has to be such a big part of his game, and at times it hasn't been to the extent that maybe it should be. I mean, do you think, I don't know, other than consistency, do you think there's something that he needs to be better at generally? Well, I wrote about Kyler years ago when he had the Hail Murray. And at that point, everyone was saying like, look, did we just see something that's going to shift the paradigm in terms of quarterbacking, or did we witness a guy who plateaued right then? And here we are now still kind of asking the same questions, more or less. But I talked to him.

1:07:56His Madden score was off the chart. So I talked to the Madden designers and they could, the mystery of Kyler is how he sees downfield. Like, how do you get him windows? How does he do it? You know how the tall guys do it. How does he do it? And even when they were designing Madden, they didn't know, like they could not figure out a way to even design a methodology for him to be able to, you know, shift bodies around and see downfield. And so, I mean, what do you do with Kyler? I mean, you're right. The stats look pretty good. His completion percentage is really good. He's better throwing over the middle than people think.

1:08:34And that was always like the perceived weakness with him. He doesn't turn the ball over a lot. And I think that like, to me, the question is like, you know, I think that he knows that he has to, if he wants to play as long as he can, he has to be a pocket passer as much or more than he is. And that's a hard thing for him to do, even if his processing skill and accuracy is really, really strong. And so like, when you talk about him as a runner, I think he knows what we all know. And that's like, that's not the way for him to survive in this league. I think that's the conflict for me right like I think there's the he he doesn't want to play that way or he hasn't wanted to maybe but again some of that probably has to do with coming off of the brutal injuries and whatnot and um because you know he is a good pocket passer he is good he's accurate but I think when I think about his dynamism I'd actually think about his dynamism as less throwing on the move and more just as a pure scrambler um and the way it makes defenses just have to account for him.

1:09:38One area I would highlight where he does need to be better versus last year, he was really not good throwing the ball deep last year. In fact, he was 31st at QBR. Under 20 yards, he was actually fourth in on-target rate. Over 20 yards, he was 27th. Now, I think some of that might have been like him and Marvin Harrison Jr. just didn't seem to connect. Right. But he's got such a big arm, Seth. I mean, the arm talent, it feels like that should be a lot better than it is. It is. And there's more stuff that goes into that. But again, I think that like, a lot of that is probably defenses. I mean, a lot of that situational, right?

1:10:14Like sometimes you force balls, whatever it might be. But I think that like, and, you know, receivers have got to be able to come down with their share. But I also think that it's defenses realizing that if they can keep everything in front of him, in front of them with him, the odds are in their favor. And, you know, maybe with a more dynamic offensive coach, you know, they'd be able to scheme some of those routes open, but, you know, you're right. And, you know, when guys come back from injuries, I mean, Carson Wentz is obviously the guy in modern history that he's just never been the same. And, you know, we kind of take for granted just because they're out there on the field, maybe they're not quite the same player.

1:10:52And, you know, deep throws are a product of lower body strength and you know maybe something was lost in the process of of you know him recovering but i mean i i'd expected that you know again these are these are just impossible to know i think that he'll get better at that i think the the question with him is just the same one and that's that like you know are we looking at an incredibly dynamic player who's done what he can do on the professional level yeah that's it's such a tricky one from a team perspective because it's it's like this is like the eternal question what do you do with the 14th best quarterback like what do you what do you do with a quarterback who's in that 13 through 23 range because you don't want to be you know taking moving on from that quarterback is such a risk we've seen so many of these young guys come in kyler you remember i the cardinals were awful and everyone thought they're going to take for Caleb Williams.

1:11:49Kyler's gone. Then he came back from the injury and he looked great that year. And also Caleb Williams struggled his first year. So it's like, it's not a given that moving on from a quarterback in this particular range is going to work out for you. Which brings me to the next quarterback, Caleb Williams. So you spent so much time with him, around him. There's so much great stuff on him in the book. You've published some of it as well. um i don't have to explain to people why he's interesting i think it's very obvious and the ben joss thing is very interesting i want to start by asking you what you thought he did well because we all know that he had his struggles last year we're going to talk about that um but i would contend that there were a flash sufficient flashes last year in 2024 of his play that if you're a bears fan you know obviously you can attribute a lot of coaching and whatnot but there were good things.

1:12:42What did you think those good things were? Oh, totally. I'm bullish on Caleb. And that's not just because I kind of like him personally. But I think that, look, the stuff that came out about Caleb for the most part is about him wondering whether to blow up the draft and to try to have some agency over where he was going to play because of the Bears' horrific record when it comes to developing quarterbacks and just producing good offensive football in general. and he was right and to be worried and his dad was right to like think that you know try to explore every avenue and I think that like we talk about system quarterbacks like it's a bad thing every quarterback is a system quarterback look at John Elway's numbers under a model T Ford offense under Dan Reeves and under a sleek one under Mike Shanahan I mean every quarterback is a system quarterback and he didn't have a great offense around him or he didn't have great coaching.

1:13:41I mean, you know, look what happened happened. I mean, it's just part of the public record. And so I think that he did pretty well, all that stuff considered. And I saw moments like there was the Detroit game, which obviously ended in a debacle. But if you remember the point that I'll remember, even though like, obviously the ending is what everyone remembers is that he was running to his right. He was angling out of bounds and he got hit right on the knee. And that looked like that might be his year. And he not only got up, but he got right up. I think he showed tremendous toughness. I think he was a good leader.

1:14:13Remember at USC, I think it was Washington that they played where he ended up crying in his mother's arms in the stands and then he didn't talk to the press after the game. I mean, he stood up and he took accountability and as hard as the year was it didn't break him and he made some incredibly good throws i thought in known throwing situations under pressure yeah that's huge i think um i love that you highlighted the toughness because i haven't seen people talk about that and also just you know he never complained i i don't know i i like i love by the way your book the story you had set that came out about how they were wary of going to chicago i i'm really grateful for caleb that didn't come out before last year after because everyone was like yeah i mean kid's got a point you know by the time it came out um but yeah i think the toughness was impressive um you mentioned that in like you know drop back situations he made some impressive throws i thought for a short guy by the way because he's he's not short as kyler but he's he's what six one or something yeah he's he's big like one thing with him is that he's put on a lot of weight this offseason yeah i actually think he sees the middle of the field well too for a guy of his height um but the thing that i liked so the flip side like this is the thing i liked and then it transitions to the thing he needs to work on and i want to hear your thought on that when the ball came out fast it looked good like there were certain games i think like the i always mentioned the jacksonville game but there were a few games in a moment like against the vikings where when he was um quick to throw you saw the accuracy not even like what some challenging throws tight window throws the problem was just when he held on to the ball but it was it was interesting stats because and i think we're seeing this like wishador sanders for example so often these college quarterbacks come and then they have bad pocket management with caleb who took a zillion sacks when i was watching him on those um long developing sacks it wasn't even like him bailing and trying to make things happen he was just like in the pocket like not there was like a reluctance to pull the trigger in moments that was very odd to me.

1:16:19And I was wondering what your thoughts were on that and just generally all of the sacks that he took. Yeah. Well, I mean, all of that and more. I mean, I think that, look, look at Bill Belichick. You can find it on YouTube. Look at Belichick's breakdown of him on draft night. And you see a lot of completions he leaves on the field that are a lot of easy completions. And I think that it's one of the things I get into in the book, but like college football, because we've had some incredibly innovative coaches the past 15 years who have figured out a way to exploit space that doesn't exist in the NFL, have figured out a way to let quarterbacks put up huge numbers and look incredibly impressive in ways that just don't translate to the NFL.

1:17:03And the college game is mostly played outside. And in the NFL, you simply have to play it inside and you have to do it against linebackers and safeties who are bigger, faster, and stronger and can jump routes a lot quicker. And, you know, I know that the coaching staff last year felt like that Caleb left a lot of completions over the middle on the field. Now, you mentioned if he saw them. I mean, I don't know how many of them he saw he didn't, but, like, if you're not pulling the trigger and guys are over the middle, that shows, you know, a fear, a resistance, whatever it might be. And I think that, like, that part of things, I really want to see him grow in this next year.

1:17:41And I think that he has a better chance of making that leap because he just has a smarter offensive coach around him. Yeah, I'm sure you've been watching him in the preseason and there's like a seam ball he hit to, I think it was Komet, not Loveland, where he just ripped it right over the middle of the field. And I saw that, I thought, oh, please let this be the harbinger of something with him. Shohei Otani's interpreter was fired today. Ipe Mitsuhara ran up gambling debts to a Southern California bookmaking operation. The inside story of the biggest scandal in modern baseball. He was absolutely bananas, the amount of bets he was making.

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1:20:17Shopify.com slash network. Okay, the final quarterback I want to talk to you about is J.J. McCarthy. And really the logic for him being interesting is almost the same as Bo Nix, which is the team is stacked. And I think you could argue JJ McCarthy of all the quarterbacks is the most interesting because it feels like if he is just average to above average, the Vikings are a contender. He's like a mystery box, Seth, right? Like, so he was a 10th overall pick, but he came in not, he was on championship team. Didn't have to do that much in college. So I was wondering, so when I say like, what do you do?

1:20:58Well, we don't know because he hasn't played at all in the NFL, but like, what are your thoughts generally on like the mystery box quarterback? Because this was a run first offense. He very rarely played from behind. He didn't ask to throw a lot. So there's a lot of questions around him. well and he's the one we know no more about him now than we knew a year ago and i think that um look i think that in a lot of ways like the conversations on kyler and caleb are leading us to jj mccarthy because when i was doing the book i i sat down with with kevin o 'connell and obviously caleb williams loved kevin o 'connell in the draft to the point where he really like imagined what it would be like if he could somehow figure out a way to to play for him and I was like yes I get it having spent time with Kevin O 'Connell and also watching his offense well he speaks he speaks quarterback and he was a four-year starter at San Diego State stud quarterback in college he goes to the NFL he gets drafted by the Patriots he figures he'll play a year behind Brady watch him and then take that expertise elsewhere and he never got off the ground and when he would get tryouts with teams even though he was big he was strong he was fast he was smart he would try to make that wow throw that throw that we see from kyler the throw that you see from kayla the lot those off platform like you know sports center highlight throws and it was only when when koc became a coach and he started to think about the position as a coach rather than as a player that he realized that that's like the worst thing you should do and And he watched all of John Elway's game-winning drives, all of Brady's and Montana's in the Super Bowls.

1:22:38And what stood out was how mundane they were, that they were just moving the ball and doing the simple thing. And as he told me, it was no different than spring ball. And so I think that given where JJ's coming in, that is the perfect situation for him because he has an innovative offensive mind who knows how to stay one step ahead of defenses, but also create those opportunities for his quarterback to do what he does best for right now. And you just build upon that. Yeah, I remember when JJ was drafted, talking about how he kind of reminded me a little of Kirk Cousins. And you could see why they drafted him because they saw Kirk Cousins in that.

1:23:19And, you know, people took that as an insult. For a rookie to approximate Kirk Cousins' style of play, that's a coach's dream. a Shanahan coach in particular that can come in and operate that particular offense. You know, it is what it looked like at Michigan. J.J. McCarthy, under sender, rolling out. He's great throwing on the move. He's accurate. He sees the middle of the field well, by the way. He throws really well over there. So I think, like, the vision remains the same. And you're right. He just – he doesn't have to be a playmaker. He will, like, in big moments if they make it to the playoffs and all that.

1:23:52But for this offense to be functional, for this train to stay on time, he just has to execute it um I think like you know there's areas he needs to get better at from college like I thought he needs to throw with more touch he's more of like a fastball thrower um you'd like to see him I would say make some throws outside the numbers that he didn't make in college more consistently but it's very easy for me when I look at his offense to see why they drafted this particular player absolutely I mean you're talking about a connection between quarterback and coach that, you know, people talk about all the time, but this is, it feels like the most seamless out of all these guys.

1:24:31And I think that like, you know, one of the things that, you know, we look at Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen, and we see these incredible improvisational plays that they make. And we think that that's them doing streetball when in fact, this is their version of Coltrane. I mean, this is the highest level in their craft who have mastered the fundamentals to a point where they know how to improvise from that. And I think that there's a big difference between that and what you see with Kyler, sometimes what you see with Caleb, certainly because he's so young, where it is streetball for them. But I think that getting that mastery down, it takes time.

1:25:13And until you're that able to do that, you know, you want to be someone like Bo Nix or someone like J.J. McCarthy and someone who I think Caleb Williams is going to be, which is going to be a distributor and someone who's going to be, you know, running the offense as the coaching, as the coaches call for it right now. And then when those opportunities present themselves, go make those dynamic plays. Because I think that like Caleb, especially, I mean, my God, I mean, they were in tough situations in games and he made some incredible throws under pressure into windows that don't exist for most humans.

1:25:49And I think that building off of stuff like that. And so anyway, going back to JJ McCarthy, I think that he's in the best situation, a lot like Bo Nix, where he'll be linked with a guy who can put him in those good situations and take pressure off of him. Totally agree. And obviously, from a roster perspective, really invested in the offensive line. You look at that and you see exactly what they're trying to do with him from a development standpoint, right? And now they're doing it with Caleb too. I mean, Ben Johnson comes in, they double down on the interior of the offensive line. And I'm sure as an observer and someone who's kind of closely involved, there's got to be a lot of relief around that in the building.

1:26:30Totally. And I mean, when you look at Knicks and McCarthy, what makes them interesting to me is that like those teams are in a window and the windows don't last forever and they're going be expected to play they're they're not young players anymore like for all practical purposes those guys are both veterans even though jj hasn't even played and you know the the interesting thing will be is like you know how they're able to continue to grow and have those growing pains which will happen um and keeping the the team on track to make the playoffs all right one more question for you this is a surprise because i didn't tell you but um it's not about quarterbacks um so there's we have a new show coming out from omaha productions which makes this podcast it's on vice it's hosted by kyle brandt it's called nfl classics after further review he's going to watch a classic nfl game with like a super fan so i'm just looking at this it's really fun you have like the 95 nfc championship with emmett smith and michael ervin so um rams versus titans with kurt warner come on uh obviously so i my choice i want to know what your choice is because you've covered so many games, so many Super Bowls.

1:27:37What would be the one that you would want to rewatch? And maybe you can pick the person you could pick somebody from in the game. So I'm going to pick one that is a little bit wacky. I'm going to go with the 2014 NFC championship Packers Seahawks. Remember that one, the Seahawks were down 16 to zero. Absolutely. one of the most insane second halves in the history of football, the John Ryan fake, the Brandon Bosnick onside kick. The onside kick. And I would, I would watch that. I'd have to find a Packers fan. I don't know. Yeah. Like Lil Wayne or something. I sometimes I just rewatch the fourth quarter when I'm in a bad mood and I need to pick me up.

1:28:20I'll just put it on. It is truly the most unhinged football game of my lifetime. Okay. What would be your choice? I'm growing up a Broncos fan, so I have two. But I would say one is a young Broncos fan and one not. But growing up a Broncos fan, I would say there was a Monday night game, Chiefs-Broncos, in I want to say 93 or 94, when Montana was with the Chiefs. And it was one of the most insane games ever. And it was difficult as a Broncos fan because Montana beat them. But it was two great players playing at a high level and also just a bunch of crazy s**t. Like there was back-to-back fumbles, if I remember right, by two Hall of Famers, like Shannon Sharp and Marcus Allen.

1:29:01The Broncos scored a touchdown when they had only 10 guys on the field at one point. I mean, and then you just have Montana just, you know, that was kind of the last glimpse of him as we know him. And then, all right, as a quote-unquote professional in all the games that I've seen, what would I go back? I mean, I think that the Colts versus Patriots AFC championship game in 06, because that was obviously a fantastic game. You know, Colts were down 21 to 3, and then they figured out a way to get back into it. It's an amazing place by future Hall of Fame players. And that changed the Patriots. I mean, you saw what they did that offseason.

1:29:47They realized that if they were going to beat the Colts… It didn't just change the Patriots. I would argue that single game changed the direction of modern football because then that ensuing version of the Patriots completely changed NFL offense. And it changed the narrative about Peyton Manning's career. And I think Belichick said, if we ever have to play in that stadium again with them pumping in noise, we have to have more dynamic weapons. And the next season was the greatest offensive season we'd ever seen until 2013. Kyle should do that one with Peyton, by the way. This Wednesday on Vice.

1:30:23So go check that out. Also go check out American Kings comes out on sale next week. It's right behind me. You see it on my TV backdrop right now. It's an awesome book. And if you love football, you should buy it. Seth Wickersham, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much.

1:31:12We'll see you next time. set off with minimum purchase. Plus get a free professional measure at blinds.com. Rules and restrictions apply.