Puka Lounge: An NFC West Preview

28:33Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah, I will preface this by saying Ernest Jones is one of my favorite players that I've ever covered when he was here in Los Angeles. And team captain, he was our good guy award winner. The beat reporters, they vote on somebody who they really admire and who's been super helpful throughout the course of the season. Good, bad. whatever happens during the year, that person is always helpful and wants to explain and what's going on and takes a lot of bullets for the team and like all of these types of things. The recovery from the knee, because obviously I believe him. He is an honest and earnest person when he says about, I feel a lot better.

29:17Jourdan Rodrigue:I feel better than I have. And I believe him because if that was something, and I'm not trying to speak for him, but if that was something that was kind of getting put off a little bit and making sure that he could set himself up long-term and really get the, just get settled, not moving around so much, being traded and then being traded again and all this stuff, really get in one situation and then just set himself up for his team for the future in that position and in that role. Like I want to see it out on the field after the recovery. And so what we talked about in Wari here earlier, what I really like about the foresight that this team has, and by the way, I'm not calling Ernest Jones a weak spot.

30:00Jourdan Rodrigue:I think he was one of the best inside linebackers in the league. It's just, my question is like, I really want to see him come back from this and I want to see what that looks like. And, and we all hope, you know, that he's healthy. And I think that I liked the foresight of them and Wari because my theory is yes, that inside linebackers are more important than ever, but that there's a self awareness across the league about what outliers still are and what players, what players capabilities are. I think one of the best things that the Seahawks did with Ernest Jones was understand who he is as a player and where his gifts are as a tone setter.

30:34Jourdan Rodrigue:And then also what player could compliment him in the future. And so to pair with that initial theory, I think more teams are trying to draft and develop these really, really big, that you saw way in the past, you know, I know you're a fan of those teams, really, really big safeties who will eventually play a very hybrid role to help in coverage. When you know your inside linebacker is going to, you want to keep them on the field all the time and you want to technically play two linebackers, but you don't want to sacrifice your DB sub packages and you need cover players. I think we're coming back to that.

31:07Teams are starting to prepare to have that extra safety

31:10Jourdan Rodrigue:coming down and being physical to help the tone setter and the force of your defense. So my question is, will that all be ready when they need it? Right? Because they'll need it. They'll face a lot of really, really good tight ends. They'll face a lot of different personnel that are designed to exploit your middle of your field. And how will they do that with a, we hope healthy, but we have to see it, Ernest Jones in the middle. Hearing you talk about that just takes me back to um dm buchanan with the arizona card i can see your memories i was looking up his height and weight uh compared to eminwari and i mean where he's got a couple inches on memories you'll see he's yeah he's insane yeah but um you know there were teams that um have executed what you're describing well and then there's been failed experiments and yeah i i I, so Ernest Jones really shored up the run defense to your point.

32:09Yes. Yeah. They still struggled versus play action. They got a little better. It was a train wreck early on, but, um, you know, I, I've been, when I talk about the CFS defense, you do before and after the buy, cause after the buy, they were like top five in every number, but one area where they still struggled 22nd versus play action 31st over the course of the entire season, because they were so got off in the beginning. I'm interested in seeing if that's something that can improve year two of Mike McDonald. But, you know, otherwise... I think the other question I would have is corner opposite Reek Wollin.

32:42Josh Jobe. I think I'm saying his name right. Jobe, who cracked the starting lineup last year. I, you know, Devin Witherspoon is his best playing closer to the line of scrimmage and talk about Agents of Chaos. So you'd really love it if... you know, when, like, if you had that optionality, I think on the outside at corner, Wolin himself, such a fascinating player. He's so good in coverage and so up and down tackling, but not many concerns about this Seahawks defense. I think they're going to be awesome. Many questions about the Seahawks offense. Completely renovated. I'm going to do depth chart here because it bears.

33:24Yeah. Sam Darnold is QB1, backed up by Jalen Milrow and Drew Locke. The receiving group, I believe the starting trio is JSN, Cooper Cup, Marquez Valdez, Scantling with Bobo, and Tori Horton, who they picked this year. AJ Barner and Elijah Arroyo, who's a rookie, are the two tight ends. Kenneth Walker, Zach Charbonnet are the backs. And the offensive line is the aforementioned Charles Cross, Gray Zabel, who's their first-round draft pick. Olu Oluwatimi at center. Competition at right guard. I have Christian Haynes written down, who was their second round. last year uh who barely played and then abel lucas um okay the offensive coordinator is kink kubiak so when they made the big gino trade and then they let dk walk and sign cup and whatever it i i talked about this on the pod but i'd like to get your thoughts on it it almost felt like to me like they were giving too much they're building the offense not in the image of the quarterback or the players but in clint kubiak's like they built an offense for clint kubiak is how i read this um i mean you know they picked darnell because they viewed him as the best young quarterback available in free agency after trading gino and the thing that i expressed skepticism around was what like we're really gonna just count on clint kubiak to fix the run game and fix the offensive line and it's like what has he done to earn this level of investment do you think i'm overstating it and what are your thoughts on kubiak because i i think that's where i start here i'm i have some skepticism about his ability as a play caller to just come in and deserve this level of investment, I suppose.

35:19Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah. Multiple factors in New Orleans, some outside of his control. Some really were, when you talk to people around the league, were the product of an inexperienced coordinator, had had a cup of coffee at the role before in Minnesota, but generally pretty and experienced in the role. And you kind of saw it also happen a year later to the Bobby Slowicks, you know, of what are the next levels of this offense? Like, what are the counters? What are the counters? What you're starting to get solved? What is your problem solving? What are the next steps in the equation? You already do this well. What are the counter plays that come off of it?

36:05Jourdan Rodrigue:Those types of things that present problems to the coaches who are trying to defend you. Not to say that they don't exist, but are there enough to where on a four practice week during a game week, you're causing enough of a slowdown in the opponent's process and by the caliber of players you have and by what they can do. you're causing enough of a slowdown in the opponent's process that you automatically have an advantage as, as a lot of these really innovative offenses do. And I think that that catches these young coordinators a lot. Honestly, it caught Bobby slow it certainly. And I think that even in the course of a season, and again, you know, with respect to very clear other factors going on in new Orleans as well with the quarterback too.

36:54Jourdan Rodrigue:I think that that this can sometimes catch these coordinator. So what I actually thought, again, this is a theory, suspicion. When you go after a guy like Cooper Cup, Cooper Cup, Matthew Stafford, Kevin O 'Connell at the time, and a handful of assistants, and Sean McVay. But Cooper Cup being very much in the mix in that role helped completely overhaul Sean McVay's offense in 2021 into not just something that had different answers to the test that defenses were presenting. But behind Matthew Stafford being a different quarterback, an entirely different passing game, going to the drop back passing game, having Matthew orchestrate so much in front of him, having Matthew wanting to see the defense in front of him more than the pure back-turning play action, figuring out over time how to run some of that out of the pistol so you're still getting some of the benefits of the run fake without actually having to fully turn your back.

37:56Jourdan Rodrigue:Um, all of these different types of things, Cooper cup is right there in the mix in the office with these guys, with Jake Peets, who by the way, is also in, in Seattle, who they kept despite offensive staff turnover. Um, and, and so I think that my theory is part of the reason you go get a guy like that. If you're, if you're Clint Kubiak and you have a say, which it seems like he very much does because of what they've, what other things they've brought in, um, that you do go out and seek. a guy like that because you have to use him as a resource. You have to. And if you don't, we will see it immediately.

38:34Yeah. I wish it was 2021. I feel a lot better. No. Um, the funny thing about the Rams example is like, they're kind of doing the reverse, right? Like this was an offense that was lived in the gun, lived in empty last year. Gino was forced to just constantly, it was, they had no run game. They did not run grub would not run the ball. Um, and so they're, I think they're doing the opposite where they're going the other direction they want to very much run the football i think my question it's very easy to say yeah something that i think drives me crazy is like teams get fans and sometimes analysts get frustrated with teams for not running the ball and say you know it's like it would be the solve the offensive line if they weren't for and i and i i don't disagree with that to an extent in seattle i think it put way too much onus on the offensive line to pass protect so much you want to be a more balanced offense to help the line and then help the quarterback obviously and play action off of that the seattle was terrible in play action last year and they almost never ran it what sometimes gets lost is you have to be able to run the ball well yes and i think that's what happened that was kind of slowick's undoing frankly is he wanted to run this offense they couldn't run the ball well in houston because the offensive line stuck so you bring in kirkubiak you know you who in new orleans it was a very under center outside zone heavy run game this is the tree they ran the second most outside zone in the nfl and they were decent at it honestly even despite all of the injuries in new orleans seattle last year was very bad at running the football from under center 20 negative 0.05 epa terrible at outside zone 2.9 yards per carry.

40:21So it's not as simple as flipping a switch and saying, cool, we're just going to do this now. Yeah. If you run the ball on first down and you're averaging 2.9 yards per carry, all you're doing is setting up your quarterback to fail. So for this to work, it's not just about the commitment to the run. They have to actively be better at it. And I think that is the premise on which this entire thing rests is, can you be better at it.

40:44Jourdan Rodrigue:And setting up to fail a quarterback that should by no means be allowed to hold on to the ball for too long. You know, like, I feel like this, you're exactly right. And to that point, you know, having Ken Walker back is great. That's, I love that for them. But having a really, really solid running back who, based on the quotes coming out of camp, is excited by and And just really inspired by this offense and the run scheme and the mid zone and the wide zone and all of that. That's one thing. That's awesome. But that doesn't fix your offensive line. So I hate to say it because Seahawks fans, I know it's like, you know, it's just like a mental twitch at this point.

41:34Jourdan Rodrigue:And Seahawks fans' eyes collectively start twitching when I say this, but it's going to always come back to this line. And whether or not any of this works, can Zabel be good right away? Can Olatini take a step forward? Can Christian Haynes, if he wins the job, be the guy that they drafted him to be? Yeah. I'd say if two out of three of those are yeses, you feel decent and can Abeluka stay healthy. But if it's anywhere close to last year, this is DOA. And the tea leaves say they want to get both of these tight ends involved. that's what you know the some of the moves they made the fan released like yes exactly but can those guys block it well enough to help your offensive line in the short term and this is again to why another reason in my opinion why they bring in cooper cup because there are there's a range of opinions about him in the passing game um i think he's still got some juice left but i know for sure he will dig out blocks.

42:34Jourdan Rodrigue:I know for a fact that he will have one leg left on his body and one arm and he will still be, you know, Monty Python, the black knight, throwing himself into the trench to grind out some of these blocks, especially where needed. And I just feel like that's a part of it is they're basically saying, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, at this offensive line, what if this is not enough? Let's throw all of this, throw all these players and these multiple tight end sets, which we need anyway. And in this development of this offense, I can see they're trying to evolve it forward a little bit. Um, but you need all of the help you can get.

43:11Jourdan Rodrigue:And, and then, and then you still aren't sure because, you know, you aren't sure if the quarterback can consistently play when things go haywire. That's a whole other piece of this. Um, you know, I have talked a lot about Darnold and I think the one thing he, you saw last year, he was, playmaker against seattle so you'd want to see that um you know as much as it is discussed that he's going from this incredible situation in minnesota to a very different one in seattle the minnesota offensive line was not great shakes at the end obviously that played a big role in the struggles um and you know i i he at times was really good and i really want him to succeed um i like the tight end duo a lot i think aj barner was sneaky underrated last year or rollo's really really fun athletic tight end at miami um can you bring some verticality which they really need yes ascending cup is their primary receivers so i am hopeful that the run game can improve so that darnold is in better situations i am skeptical uh but that would be i think the thing that, you know, if I, if I have to, if we're asking what makes this, if the, okay, best case scenario for the Seahawks top five defense, you and I agree, that's totally realistic.

44:37Can you get an above average offense? Cause last year was slightly below average to me. It's just, can you run the football at an above average level?

44:44Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah. And can you get your, can you get your offense a lot of bites at the apple? Really? I think that's what Mike McDonald really likes to try to do is, is almost play the probability a little bit where, okay, you know, we're going to have double digit drives. And so, cause I'm, my defense is going to get you the ball back. And so playing the percentages, some of that has to work. Right. And so I think that it's not the worst way to think about it. If you know what your strength is, um, I do have a question for you about this, what you think about this. So obviously they're doing some of the mid zone, the wide zone.

45:19Jourdan Rodrigue:That's just the staple. And I say this in this portion to sort of set up another point when we talk about another team. Do you think, because sometimes I can take some of the pressure off your offensive linemen, especially if they can move a little bit, if they can get to different levels of the run game, if they can move laterally, like it can help alleviate some of that was what this was always famous for. If you can do it well, if you could do it right now, that's the caveat. You have to do it well and you have to do it right. They could take some of the pressure off your line. But this offense and these quotes out of camp, we want to be ground and pound.

45:50Jourdan Rodrigue:We are this. We want to run the ball. That implies you want some physicality, right? When you look at this offensive line and when you look at the system overall and what it wants to be, but then also the scheme that it is going to rely on, do you believe that it matches? I think it's funny because like I said, they were awful at it last year. But body type-wise, they're athletic. This is not like a physically imposing offensive line off the rip. You know, I think Gray Zabel, who they drafted this year, makes sense for an outside zone heavy offense. He's just fantastic on the move. He's got tremendous feet.

46:33I think the tackles, when they're healthy, make sense. Olatwini's not a huge dominant center. So I think like, you know, looking at them, body types, some of the things they've showed in the past, it makes sense. I think I almost want to go back and rewatch some of the outside zone reps from last year because the numbers are so dismal, right? 2.9 yards per carry. You're like, what happened here? What was going on here? I think, you know, the no Lucas was really bad. I mean, that was a really rough situation on the right side. But yeah, I... I think that you have to see some pretty significant development from these young offensive linemen for me to feel optimistic about it.

47:18Because I don't, they're not a group who is just going to knock people around. But you know, it's hard to be worse than they were last year in pass bro. Okay. Let's take a quick break and come back about a team that I would actually argue is kind of like the flip of what we talked about where I'm higher on the offense than the defense. that would be the LA Rams. Right now, O 'Reilly Auto Parts gets you back to savings. Pick up select Royal Purple Fuel System additives. Buy one, get one free. Plus receive four times O rewards points. Stop by your local O 'Reilly Auto Parts store or shop online at OReillyAuto.com.

47:55Chris Canney here. Football season is back and Lids has you covered. Just in time for kickoff. Want the latest headwear to rep your team at the tailgate, at the barbecue, or at the game? shop the 47 brand NFL collection exclusively in store at your local Lids. This collection puts a new spin on retro NFL gear. Lids has every fan covered with all 32 teams featuring the big time hits and alternate team logos. You'll find the perfect fit for every Sunday. Selection may vary by store. All right, we're back. So the Rams, Jordan, this is your expertise. So recently, this is the team you covered so closely.

48:34I've been getting caught up with last couple of weeks in anticipation of the preseason. Yeah. Which is this very different conversation from the one we're about to have because you're talking about guys. We won't see any of these people. I think you will see Terrence Ferguson. There's the tie end. See Josiah Stewart. We'll talk about them a little bit, but let's talk about this offense because I want to ask you a question. Do you think that the Rams, okay. favorites to win the division. I've been doing these power rankings pods and everybody's had them top 10-ish or higher. Nick Wright just had them six.

49:12Do you think because everybody's last memory is of Matthew Stafford marching down the field versus Philadelphia more than once, that they're forgetting some of the ups and downs over the season? Do you feel like maybe or do you think this level of optimism is merited and we can get into the reasons why.

49:36Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah, I think a lot of people did forget what the backstretch of that season looked like last season, 2024. We found out way after the fact that he was dealing with some ribs injuries, you know, didn't miss practice, but it was said that it very much affected him in some of the games, especially during that backstretch of the season when they just, they were not scoring points, weather was a factor in that 49ers game. But it was concerning, I think. And I think that at this point, the Rams understand what having a really quality backup quarterback, first of all, is valuable for when Matthew Stafford is 37 years old and has taken an absolute beating in his career and had some really serious and, frankly, frightening injuries over time.

50:27Jourdan Rodrigue:but I think the Rams understand also how to kind of reignite that like I actually don't feel this because the competitor is awake dark Matthew Stafford darkly chaotic Matthew Stafford as I call him like watching Jimmy G kind of carve the Seahawks defense up at times at the end of the season drive down the field and make some throws watching when he was being rested in that last week of the regular season and then come out and be the guy that we all know he is right so i think why people are rating them so high is because we know we know what he is we know what he's capable of being the floors were high or lower with him last year than i have seen in his time since he was traded to la yeah it i think that's a good way to put it i think to answer my own question And I think, yes, people are like, when I see Matthew Stafford ranked above Lamar on quarterback rankings, I'm like, okay, I understand.

51:28We saw him at his peak of his powers, but it was up and down. Now in his defense, there are two things that I think mitigate that. Offense was horribly injured last year, 27th in adjusted games loss. The offensive line was a mat, which we'll talk about, was a mash unit constantly figuring, shuffling, fearing things out. guys who I know from the preseason were playing, which is not a good thing. You know, Cooper Cup, Buga Nakua was out for several games. Higby, Tyler Higby was their number one tight end, missed most of the season. So I think it's fair to give them some grace for the regular season in that regard.

52:05I also think the addition of Devontae Adams is potentially massive for this offense. And he doesn't have to be 21 of his best year, 18. Like Devontae Adams, for me to think that, it really is because so much attention is paid to Pukunikua. Merely having a wide receiver to a traditional X like Devontae, the opportunities are tremendous. One thing I pulled this. So when the Rams faced man coverage, Pukunikua was targeted on 43 % of his routes, which is the highest of any receiver in the NFL. He had 3.29 yards per route run. No one else on the Rams had over two, which is kind of the barf. They desperately needed someone else.

52:55And I think Tudor Matwell is a good player and who they signed to another one-year deal. I think he's a contributor. But to me, again, because of the attention commanded by Niku, as well as the scheme and the quarterback, there is the potential here for Devontae Adams to absolutely cook in this offense. But again, he's older and all of that. I'm just saying the potential is there.

53:16Jourdan Rodrigue:They were thinking very much about what the first half of the Super Bowl, back after the 2021 season, early 2022 of the fiscal year, they were really very much thinking about what that looked like in the first half with Odell Beckham Jr. and how open he was and how all of the coverages tilted toward Cooper Cup and gave Odell so much space and how this guy was on pace to being Super Bowl MVP and how, okay, it's Sophie's choice. Who are you going to pick at this point? Because, okay, go ahead and try to shift coverage back away from Cooper Cup, who had one of the best seasons by any receiver in NFL history that year.

54:02Jourdan Rodrigue:Okay, good luck to you on that. So that's what they're thinking about. They're watching Puka enter his prime and they're going out and getting a receiver who Sean McVay has always thought very, very highly of to the point where he's sending him videos while Devante is in Japan of Sean holding his phone up to his TV screen where there's film cut ups and narrating said cut ups while Kris Jenner filming his TV screen with his phone. and it's like that's the the the desire that they had to bring him in and to really throw back to the iteration of that offense but then move it forward too because this is how I kind of see it it's like I think they have two ones Puka and Devante I see it as they have two ones and I also see it as back when they had Jalen Ramsey and Aaron Donald on the same football team which that's like I still can't believe that it's insane that the league let them do that but But it operated, the defense at that time operated like a solar system.

54:59Jourdan Rodrigue:Every other player, those two orbited around each other because Jalen was coming down into the slot at times. Aaron was moving across and around the line of scrimmage. But then also Jalen was coming down and run support and then coming back either in the slot or playing on the perimeter. They were basically these two figureheads in this solar system around which the entire system of defense orbited. This now will be the case for Devante Adams and Puka Nakua, who not only can line up all over the field, but I have seen it happen where Devante is in the slot and Puka is detached and out wide. or Puka is all the way out at the perimeter.

55:39Jourdan Rodrigue:Tutu Atwell is the motion man and Devante changes positions to make space for Tutu in the slot and then he kicks out. There's so many different permutations. And then again, using Tutu Atwell as like the motion player to confuse defenses even more and have to account for the deepest parts of the field. Everything will orbit around these two receiver ones. And that's where I think the top is. Then I think the second layer is more tight end usage. And then I think the third layer. Is this the year? It's the year. That we finally see more 12 personnel. I say it every year, Mina. I say it every year.

56:17We're a tight end. So I feel like the Rams front office might kill Sean McVay if he doesn't actually do it this year. You're wasting our picks. Let me tell you, Harris Ferguson, who I don't think I talked about in the draft, very complete tight end from Oregon. You know, kind of good all around. I wasn't like blown away compared to some of the other tight ends who were taken earlier, but I thought he had a really complete skill set. At practice, he's a lot bigger than I thought. He's got trunks on him. Here's one thing I want to ask about the 12 personnel. His team was okay running the football?

56:57Not explosive. They hit doubles, not explosive. yeah uh sixth in rushing success rate which is like down to down efficiency 29th in 10 yard plus rushes yes uh 31st in percent of runs were 10 yards so yeah they were they were efficient but not explosive um he also drafted it back uh who we will see again it's a tradition um yeah i just i think like when we talk about this rams offense and whether or not they can be a top 5, 10 offense. The Adams is huge. The other thing I do want to see is maybe the offense get a little bit more explosive. I don't know if I guess I said 12 personally. Realistically, I think the opportunities will be there in 11 because of what you just described, which is defensively account for those receivers.

57:48The hope is we have two really, really good receivers. We're going to create space for our guys underneath. The question and this is if i had you know i did the same thing with seahawks defense the offensive line yes already dealing with some issues uh aleric jansen jackson who was starting left tackle um came out i think in june that he had blood clots questions about the timeline looking at the christian barmore timeline from last year dj humphreys was signed as a veteran. But that, that to me is the biggest question in this whole thing is because that was really what doomed them for some of last season.

58:30Yeah.

58:31Jourdan Rodrigue:Because as we touched on in the top, the offense will go as Matthew Stafford goes, right? Really? Now I would posit that Sean McVay doesn't necessarily want to quite be so dependent on that understanding now what he didn't maybe earlier in his coaching career of when an offensive line falls apart, it really falls apart, which they've been through twice now, 2022, and then again, last season. So I think in, again, re-signing Jimmy G who can deploy the offense and then also the progress they've made so far on the potential contract extension with Kyron, but then drafting another running back as well, having continuity with that, having an 11 personnel team that can flip the switch to 12 personnel as needed on a case-by-case basis, which he wanted.

59:18Jourdan Rodrigue:He wanted all of these tools and all of these different avenues and outlets just in case something was going to happen again to the offensive line, which so far it has, because that is an unideal to say the least for Matthew Stafford. Now, Alaric is out at practice, which is a great sign. I've been hearing some positive things about his recovery and his treatment. This is something he's dealt with before in his career, but it's also like this team will not put him on the field if they don't think it's safe and so you have DJ Humphreys who is repping at left tackle and then you have a swing backup in Warren McClendon who had a hard time when he was spot starting and and and playing last season and then you have Rob Havenstein by the way who's also the right tackle the veteran who is recovering from a double procedure on either shoulder where he says it was not a repair as a clean out.

1:00:18Jourdan Rodrigue:And he says his bench press is back to what he wanted it to be, but you're stepping and pressing, you're stepping and pressing and you're absorbing force every single play. And so I think that those are the two, if I'm going to have any question about this offense at all, it starts with those bookend tackles. Yeah. We'll see what happens. That would be the, know the the real the biggest question for me um a lot more questions about the defense you know i'm so excited about earth said i was like ah is everybody thinking you know overrating stafford and i thought well maybe to some degree but also there were reasons explaining i do think folks their last memory of this defense is the front four wrecking havoc and that is merited.

1:01:05This front four rocks. This front four got better. Behind them, I have some questions, Jordan. This is a defense that finished 25th in DVOA versus the pass. They were better against the run. The pass defense They had issues with, I talked earlier about the Niners. When they didn't get pressure, it was quite bad. They also gave up the fourth most completions of 20 plus yards in the NFL. Really struggled versus play action. So is the plan, once again, just that Jared vs. Kobe Turner, Byron Young, Braden Fisk, will Ricks, you know, just be such world destroyers that will compensate for that? Or do you think it's possible that the past defense got better in some ways that I'm underestimating them?

1:02:05Jourdan Rodrigue:I think that if on paper, the past defense stayed the same. But I will say that, and I know I don't have to tell you this, but when you look at a large portion of those explosive plays, a lot of those came from missing first contact on a rush. Uh, and Jared verse will be the first to admit this leaving several sacks on the grass because he's, he'd miss at first contact. And then the quarterback would scramble Kyler Murray. I know you watched that game killed them with this, especially Jared verse, by the way, had only four and a half sacks on 64 pressures, which is a very terrifying combination of numbers for the league.

1:02:49Because you're not going to have four and a half sacks again next year, history suggests. So to your point there about letting some sacks.

1:02:58Jourdan Rodrigue:100%. And then it's also a group that was learning how to rush together for the first time in a post-Aaron Donald world. They kept their front structures very, very simple at the start of the year. Got really fun and interesting near the back of the year. I know we'll talk about that in a second. But it's so interesting because I was talking with someone who's with the team. And basically, they their theory was especially as they stay young and relatively young and relatively cheap in most areas of their defense is if they their theory, and this basically is clear, people don't have to agree with it, just communicating what the theory was, that if If they built the best front they possibly could, run and pass, signing Puna Ford in free agency, underrated still, and one of the best signings I think they could have possibly made to help stop the run.

1:03:48Jourdan Rodrigue:And if they built out this defensive front, this line, as best as they possibly could, as high as caliber as they possibly could, that would improve the secondary enough to not spend resources on it. This is a team that was going to, was in talks with Miami, was certainly open to the idea of reuniting with Jalen Ramsey, but at the same time, weren't going to shell out resources for it. Darius Williams is their highest paid player in their secondary. And in part because he is, you know, captain material player who's bringing up a lot of the younger players. I think they're fine at safety. They have a lot of really exciting safeties, young safeties, Cam Kitchens.

1:04:30Jourdan Rodrigue:Jayla McCullough is playing a little dime linebacker as well. Quentin Lake, who's playing their star position. So that hybrid linebacker safety and a little corner, actually slot corner as well. But I do I do wonder about the perimeter because it's Darius Williams and Akela Witherspoon, who when they're good, they're very solid. But when they are dealing with injuries or when there's, like I said, covering for a really, really long time, there's been issues. behind them is Kobe Durant who is so exciting as a as a player as a personality but between injuries and depth rotation all of that just hasn't quite put it together consistently and then they brought in Emmanuel Forbes who we still don't really know what he is or what he can be he is wearing the the white arm sleeves which offensive linemen tell me make you look bulkier so if you got the you know so people keep asking me if he looks like he's gained weight and I'm well, he's wearing white arm sleeves, which I hear make you look larger than you actually are.

1:05:27So I saw him. So for folks, I forgot Emmanuel Forbes was the first round draft pick by the Washington Commanders, who was like the career pick six leader in college, who's got incredible clothes, closing speed, great tone eyes, great instincts. He is also my size. So, uh, you know, I think that I, I liked that addition a lot because why not? It cost him nothing, but I'll be interested in seeing. I think situationally he could be useful for them. I think the tackling is obviously a question. Yeah. Look, this is the second cheapest defense in football. They're counting, I think, on the offense, giving them leads.

1:06:06They're counting on the pass rush, exploiting that. I think all of that is a totally realistic expectation. But the cornerback room gives me a lot of pause. linebacker is again an area where they've gone pretty cheap at too nate landman in the green dot he can tackle i'll say that he's a good tackler um yeah and they drafted linebacker i think we're gonna see in the preseason chris paul chris paul yeah so many uh nfl players who have

1:06:35Jourdan Rodrigue:nba player names now who paul nicknamed pool paul so i i hope you have some fun with he's a great personality mina so i do hope you get to watch him a little bit in the preseason i uh i don't I was going to say I could make some land man jokes, but I don't think we're going to see land man. Cause he's like a starter. Omar Spates was last year's preseason all-star who earned his way. And he, and I, and I do like him. I think he is a really ascending player. So I, I, I hope I'm not finding too negative. I just think the secondary, the cornerback room gives me a lot of pause. Linebacker gives me some pause, especially when you think about going against the likes of, you know, Philadelphia and Detroit in particular, when we're thinking about the top of the NFC, but yeah, I mean that verse number, Like the pass rush is still going to be absolutely sick.

1:07:18All right, let's wrap. I do like the safeties by the young safety.

1:07:23Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah. And if I could, I'm sorry, if you'll just indulge me real quick, you can see exactly what they're actually worried about because they're pulling two of their safeties down into that cover. Like I mentioned when we were talking about Seattle, that more cover linebacker role, they're more worried about middle of the field. They're more worried about tight ends, covering tight ends, especially in the NFC West. Clearly, they're more worried about helping to defend the run now because, again, the players they're pulling down closer to the line of scrimmage. Two of their best players in that young secondary are Jayla McCullough and Quentin Lake.

1:07:56Jourdan Rodrigue:So they're pulling them down into areas where they are more unavoidable in terms of every snap from snap to snap. And I think that that's exactly what their strategy is, is we're looking first and foremost at prioritizing the pass rush and getting to the quarterback. and affecting the quarterback any way we can. We added this high-dollar free agent, Kuna Ford, who we think is going to shore up our run defense and help, and then a tackling linebacker. Not really a coverage linebacker, but a tackling linebacker. But we're pulling our best players in our secondary down closer to the action because that's our biggest concern.

1:08:32Jourdan Rodrigue:That's really what I think they're showing you. Then you start getting worried about that explosive plays number. No, I think you're right. And completely flipping a game, as we saw early with the Cardinals. completely making a game unreachable early yeah you mentioned the cardinals offense uh let's save let's get into it you were just there um the cardinals offense to me is best captured in two numbers they were 11th in offensive dvua so just outside the top 10 so you see that and you're like well why did at times it not feel better they were second in variance and that's your answer folks um there were moments you talked the rams game is the one that really jumps out where they looked like absolute world beaters kyler playing the best football of his career the run game as dominant as they've been last few years marvin harrison jr went absolutely nuclear in that game the deep crossers and then there were games the seahawks not long after that where they just couldn't even move the ball what are the Arizona Cardinals what is this offense like what do you like where do you regard them headed into this season uh this is one of my favorite offensive systems in the NFL to be honest uh defensive too but we'll get to that in a minute but I when you were talking about variance why do I why does this seem so strange why does this feel so bad I the the vivid memory that you brought forth to my mind was sitting in the back seat of a car and I ate a king-size Butterfinger the entire thing and it was a summer day in Phoenix and I was fine and enjoying life and feeling incredible and I had a king-size Butterfinger and then about an hour later I was like I think I'm dying maybe yeah why do I feel so horrible yeah so this is the Cardinals or what they were, right, last year.

1:10:29Jourdan Rodrigue:And I just feel like it is such a delight. It's such a treat to watch what they can do. I am so high on Drew Petsing. And, you know, we talked about the Kubiak system when we were talking about the Seahawks and how there's this intent to stick to the outside zone and this intent to stick to the boots and the play actions off the outside zone. And that is what you do because that's what you've always done since, you know, Father and Shanahan and all of that. What your pet sing said is I am of this system, yes, but actually I'm going to run a gap scheme run game. And yes, I'm going to use my tight ends, but also somehow my timeline has intersected perfectly with these absolute freaks of players.

1:11:16Jourdan Rodrigue:And it's one in particular in Trey McBride where you have a mismatch anywhere on the field. you have a math advantage anywhere on the field, including blocking in the run game. And you can design conceptually so many things out of these heavy personnel. So instead of all of your answers coming out of a wide zone, a lot of your answers come out of pure physicality. And then you can split the field however you want, because you can line up your heavy personnel anywhere you want. So I love that about this offense. I have questions about the consistency of this offense. the local media in Arizona, the biggest talking point on the radio there throughout the summer, throughout the off season is, is the Kyler Murray question.

1:12:07Jourdan Rodrigue:Is this going to be their quarterback for the longterm after this contract? Is Marvin Harrison Jr. Going to take the next step forward this season? This is, these are the two biggest questions about the offense that again on the ground locally people were talking about this season but i gotta tell you it's all there that's the thing conceptually it's all there the butterfinger is there tyler's so frustrating because he's so hard to rank for this reason right like i did the quarterback draft we see the quarterback rankings and yeah there's the moments where he absolutely looks like a top 10 quarterback and then there are moments where he looks like a bottom it's just all over the place and statistically it all evens out right and he ends up kind of like you look at most metrics he's in that 10 to 15 range but um it is just consistency consistency consistency is what you need from him you need him to be consistent on third down you need him to be more accurate consistently throwing deep because there are i think what's frustrating is like there's moments where you see him do it so it's not like impossible there are moments where he He looks unbelievable.

1:13:19One thing I, so I'll get to Harrison Jr. Who's the other player I want to talk about. One thing that makes me excited about Kyler is something Buda Baker brought up to me. I interviewed him for YouTube. Cardinals fans, go check that out. He's great. And he mentioned to me that Kyler looks, has said to him and is also doing things and practices suggest he really wants to run more this year. So last year, as a runner, Kyler Murray had the highest yards per carry, percentage of runs over 10 yards, yards before contact, of his entire career. I've heard him talk a little bit about feeling better this offseason coming off of the injury than he did last offseason.

1:14:04I think sometimes we forget, like we talk about the Cardinals run game and think about how, you know, they've got, you talked about it in depth, like they're so physical and bruising and petcing scheme. but a big part of the reason why they're able to run the way they are is Kyler Murray. Yeah, because he might run.

1:14:22Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah. I mean, they're so good running out of the gun. And I think if he is as dynamic as ever, that's huge for this offense. So I think I'm allowed to say this. If I don't show up to work in the coming days, you know, the Cardinals came and took me out. But at practice, when I was watching some of their installs and all of the things that they were doing yes I did see more designed run I did see more of that with Kyler I saw that more with Red Zone I saw that more and and you know what's so much fun you and Nate Tice have brought this up a few times and it kills me every single time it's the best it's just like the the Monstars all around Kyler yeah yeah yeah and just like this little helmet I mean it's a large helmet but like from a bird's eye view it's this little helmet just everywhere and it's like the best that's exactly and the blocking is there you can see the structure it's are they going to do it and and frankly is he going to do it because it's there and they're installing it they're putting it in speaking of the monsters as one does as one does yeah right uh who's jacked now um oh yeah mina they yell 12 personnel when he comes into the huddle.

1:15:39That's what Jack D is. Yeah. Wow. Um, he's the big dude. What is it like six, four? Uh, okay. So not a bust of a rookie season, but a disappointing one given where he was drafted. My belief in his talent level. Um, some of that is on him and Kyler lack of chemistry in moments. Some of it is on Harrison jr himself. Just again, not playing up to what he's capable of. Some of it's on drew petzing. I'm just gonna say it. I was not thrilled at times with how Harrison was used in this otherwise like awesome offense. A couple stats I want to read to you. So Harrison Jr. of all the rookies and they're speedsters, right?

1:16:21Neighbors. I just averaged up the target of all the rookie receivers. 13. He led all rookies with tight window targets in tight ring of targets. Again, some of that is on him he was the isolated receiver 30 of the time no other rookie receiver was isolated above 17 neighbors was 16 it felt at times they were just lining him up outside asking him to run a go route and he was like a sacrificial ex in this offense and again he is not about he there's you know his separation all that factors into it but i felt like they could have done more to find ways to get him integrated into the structure of the offense instead of just

1:17:06Jourdan Rodrigue:asking him to take on the number one corner and i might push back on you a little bit on that because in reframing this this is not an offense that runs through an x receiver it obviously runs it runs through the tight end it runs through trey mcbride it's his system he is the volume one so it's almost like you can't even look at it that way anymore and if you have a receiver who you need to develop eventually into being an x and you have to find a receiver who you need a partner for him, especially when they're in, they are, when they are actually in 12 personnel and he needs to have a running mate who can also take some of the attention off him in turn as a receiver.

1:17:40Jourdan Rodrigue:You do this guy, a young guy, right. Who has admitted that at times everything was going too fast for him. And who has admitted that he needed just more time to understand kind of what was going on around him. And, and you have him out there and you need to use him. Okay. And I hate to say the word decoy, but at times you just need to clear space for Trey McBride. And that's what this offense was. It can't sustain like that. Let me be clear. It cannot sustain like that. That's part of the reason why, yes, they improve, but you need more from everybody, including getting Marvin Harrison Jr. as involved as you would structurally see even an offense that does run fully through the tight end.

1:18:19Jourdan Rodrigue:But you are creating space with him as well. That has to be part of what he does anyway. He's not the volume one. It's Trey McBride. It's true, but he's too good for that role. He is too good. Yeah. So I think that's where they got to find a way to - Yes. You need more. Yeah. You need more. It's like, again, it makes sense that it runs through Trey. Trey's unbelievable. He's just one of the best tight ends in the entire NFL. He's so good at everything. But I just feel like Marvin Harrison Jr. is your second best skill player. Right? So like, you know, um, you know, I anticipate the run game being as good as ever.

1:18:52We'll see how things balance out between Connor and Benson.

1:18:56Jourdan Rodrigue:James Connor, the sneakiest 30 I've ever seen in my life. I mean, I feel like he's 25 the way he runs 22, the way he runs. He's had such a great, great, he benefits from Kyler too. You know, we were talking about it. Um, the line I think will continue to be good. I think, you know, guards may be a bit of a question, but Kyler, that's another thing i thought he deserved credit for um i thought you know uh you saw them benefit from his presence back there in terms of his evasiveness all right um defense let's wrap with this uh buddha and i talked about this quite a bit insane last year one of the craziest defenses in the NFL.

1:19:40Yes. Buddha being the centerpiece of that, a defense that was used him in literally every possible way a football player can be used. But, you know, under the defensive coordinator, Nick Rallis, what they were doing on any given down. Nick Rallis, what are you on? some real mad science and stuff crazy pressures crazy simulated pressures yeah uh in front with a mixture of a kind of vikings-esque mixture of zone coverages on the back end although they were primarily they played a lot of three safety looks um in the second half of last season this was the worst season in defense in the nfl arguably the year before last year they improved in the second half of the season, they were just outside the top 10 in a lot of metrics.

1:20:37But a lot of that was because the pass defense, which we can talk about. This was not a good pass rush outside of Budapaker. So they go out, they add Josh Sweat, who was the big edge signing of free agency to compliment Barron Browning, Xabin Collins, Calais Campbell, Dalvin Tomlinson, you draft Walter Nolan, on the defensive line. So I think my question for you is, do you think this pass rush can improve to where this defense is not just outside the top 10, but could actually jump into it?

1:21:10Jourdan Rodrigue:I would say it has to, but I don't, I don't know if it can yet because Walter Nolan's dealing with an injury, um, which is, there's no timeline on that, which is never a good sign. Jonathan Gannon is notoriously tight lipped about injuries. You know, it's the Philly, you know, and then before that the Steichen and you know all of that but like this is a person who will not give much on the timeline so but the fact that there wasn't even uh sort of an estimation or anything that's that's concerning to me um but I will say I I was there the day after all of that happened and you could almost see there weren't pads on yet I've heard since pads went on it's been even better more impressive you could almost see second year player darius robinson obviously more on more on the inside you could see the the the light go on like you could really um like gannon had to yell at him a couple times because he was it was too much for no pads right and but you could see like he wants it he certainly looks the part and then i think underrated as well bringing calais campbell back too because this one of the best humans of all time by the way but and still got it, still contributing.

1:22:25Jourdan Rodrigue:Still got it. Every year I do this thing where I'm like, okay, let me look at all the defensive linemen and look at their pass rush wins and their pressure. And every year I'm just like, how is Calais Campbell still, according to every advanced metric, one of the best defensive linemen? And even improving certain statistics, like he got his hand on so many passes last year. It's insane. But you know what's interesting? You could already tell there's a lot of rotation. There's a lot of stuff. I thought this Walter Nolan pick when they did draft him was so great for them because he sort of represented, if you call their line right now a mix of the previous era and the new era, certainly with Calais being there as well, being back in Arizona after time away, it is a combination of the former and the new.

1:23:10Jourdan Rodrigue:And Walter Nolan certainly represented what was going to be the foundational part of that new. You don't have him now, right? So now you're in a mismatch of still the new and the old. And so I think that that was the initial plan. So you're not necessarily having to deviate too much from the plan. You're just missing this for now, missing this potentially very disruptive player who would be, by the way, a perfect fit in your system. But I'm, I'm watching, you know, saving Collins move around a lot. You know, this, the rotations are, are still there. And it is so interesting to me because this is a defense you mentioned it in, at the top that has, it's not just that they've improved statistically.

1:23:50Jourdan Rodrigue:they seem to know what they're supposed to do where they're supposed to be there was an urgency there was a pace um now the injuries could be what really ends up being an issue for them yeah the nolan injury hurts yeah it's such an important time for rookies uh i would also add by the way jordan birch was a edge that they drafted who's an interesting player um the good news is i think on the back end this has the potential to be a really strong secondary so we already know buddha baker is one of the best safeties in the nfl got him and jalen thompson on the inside the corner room now you know again there's some speculation here because will johnson is a rookie but i thought that could be the steal of the draft yeah and he's practicing you know there's concerns about the injury, Max Melton, and then Garrett Williams, who

1:24:45I, I, already, already. And then, you know, if, if you have a better pass rush, you're not asking Buddha to rush the passer as much. He doesn't have to, he can play a little bit. He was saying to me, he wants to get his hands on the football a little bit more and just play more safety again. And so, you know, I think that some of the issues, maybe your questions up front can be mitigated to some degree by what this defense is capable of with the back end, because I think the ceiling for this young secondary is really high.

1:25:17Jourdan Rodrigue:Finn, still. Lots of young, interesting, exciting players that they've brought in and kept around over the last couple of years who hadn't found a spot just yet. But, you know, with Starling Thomas going down, he went down the day I was there. It was really, really awful to see. He's clearly a heartbeat player for the team as well. And then SMB not being there. But that trio that you mentioned, Williams, Johnson, and Melton, law firm Esquired, it is actually so exciting because Williams can move. He can move around. Like Darren Urban, who does a great job with the Cardinals as a team reporter there, keeps reiterating that he's going to be playing on the outside if he has to.

1:26:01Jourdan Rodrigue:and they'll put somebody else in to compete in the slot. And then when it's a three-corner look, Will Johnson can come in on the outside and has and already got first team reps early in training camp. It's really exciting to me because you never want injuries. It's awful. I feel awful for the guys, but it's also like there's pure competition there, but there's already adequacy and then some there, which is exciting if you're a coach. Yeah, this is the nice phase about where they are in rebuilding is they actually have some continuity, which was not like there's actually a few proven vets. There's vets coming in and then you have young players.

1:26:36So like you said, Walter Nolan doesn't have to be the best defensive lineman on the team immediately because they actually added, they used all the money that they had to add some depth. And then Josh Sweat, you know, I think that's what Josh Sweat is kind of a question for me too, because I always think of him as like being a good, not great edge. Obviously Jonathan Gannon, there's familiarity there, but no, I think he'll have the opportunity to get after it if the secondary plays as well as I think they're capable of. I do not know how I'm going to rank this division. I like to go through all the teams first to kind of help.

1:27:08I was hoping you'd forget. I'll go first. Oh my God. Okay. So I'm ranking them on wins, like how we think it might end out. And even though I'm not sure I believe the Niners are a better team than the Seahawks and the Cardinals, I'm going to put them second behind the ramps. I'm gonna go Rams Niners, but that's a lot of that has to do with the Niners facing the easiest schedule in football. So I'm just clarifying there. Then I'm gonna go Seahawks Cardinals. But I honestly, these power rankings pods, the NFC West teams outside of LA keep finishing like 17, 18, 19 Jordan, because just I don't know.

1:27:49I think that's where I'm gonna end up, but I don't feel great about it.

1:27:53Jourdan Rodrigue:Well, it's impossible. I mean, this is impossible to do. I think that, like for me, we should just invent something. A lateral ranking. I mean, it's not really a ranking. Tears. Lateral. Lateral. This is all. They're all winners of Milo. In the one tier, you've got the Rams. In the second tier, you've got these three teams that could finish it in any order. That's how you get caught up during rankings, is you do a tier. Yes. I will say, like all of these teams, like you, I think any one of these teams. This order, listen, I'll wake up tomorrow and I'll probably hate exactly what I chose and do it completely opposite.

1:28:27Jourdan Rodrigue:This could go in any direction. Fans of these teams, I do not hate your team. In fact, I probably quite love your team. But yeah, I'm going to put Rams, Cardinals, 49ers, Seahawks. And again, not because I think any of them should be last. There is no last place in my mind. I think anyone who took the time to listen to this pod understands that we see them as being pretty competitive. Yeah. It's just schedule is going to be huge, I think. And health. That's why I put – because I wanted to put San Fran – I could easily see them winning the entire thing. Like I could see it. But at the same time, I just – I'm so curious about the health of some of those like weight-bearing walls.

1:29:11Jourdan Rodrigue:You know what I mean? And then, and then LA, if Stafford's not healthy, I mean, I throw them all the way near the bottom, you know, or if Jackson is out the whole season, that really affects if CMC comes back and he looks like CMC, but if he doesn't, there's so many, so many variables here. Um, what is not a variable is how good Jordan Rodriguez at covering this league, which you are now doing the whole league. So where can folks find your work this season? Yes. Uh, so I am so excited to be visiting in some form or fashion, all 32 this year and moving forward as a senior national writer for The Athletic covering the NFL.

1:29:48Jourdan Rodrigue:I also do NFL Daily three times a week with Greg Rosenthal. I'm in the studio right now. This is some very non-subtle marketing suggested by a one Greg Rosenthal. But yeah, I'm grateful to be on with you today, Mina. I've been a fan of your show for so long. And so I really appreciate you having me. Lucky to have you and your expertise on today to preview this crazy division. I will be back next week to do the AFC West and then the AFC South and the NFC South after that. So we've got three divisions left. Um, and Oh, for those who are wondering, so I'm doing a live show in Seattle this week, Julian love who you should by the day really talk to Jordan.

1:30:29If you get up to Seattle, he's one of my favorite players.

1:30:32Jourdan Rodrigue:One of my favorite players in the league. Yeah. Great. I'll be interviewing him then, but I'm also with Danny Kelly and Jackson Bevan is going to be doing my annual awards preview pod. That will be available the following week as a podcast on YouTube and audio for those who are not in Seattle. The majority of my listeners don't want to listen to it. As always, thank you to my friends and the folks who make this possible at Omaha Productions. Kirsten Specky, Anthony Jimenez, Owen Saylor, Jack Foster, Tucker Taschen. uh also uh i have my non football pod with david dennis jr viewer discretion uh you're gonna get that on youtube as well where we talk about tv and movies we did superman last week this week we are talking about materialists and whether the rom-com is dead so go check that out viewer discretion i'll be back uh next week with the afc west

1:31:29You