Reid Em and Weep? Picking the Top Ten Coaches in the NFL

29:37Okay, he's in my top 10. And I have Matt LaFleur at eight. What? This is great. I love this. No, this is good. No, I love that we have dissent. Okay. Yeah. Do you have D 'Amico Ryans or Dan Campbell on your list? I do. I have D 'Amico Ryans at nine. Okay. And Dan Campbell just missed the cut. I would have had him at 11. What? Make the case. How about make the case for Dan Campbell is a better coach than Jim Harbaugh. i think that dan campbell first of all that he's had an extraordinary amount of team success in detroit already right like that obviously playoff teams in five seasons uh turned out turned around a team that was abysmal when he joined right you remember that so there was this was a complete overhaul and turnaround job um took a quarterback by the way who was cast aside again, Jim Harbaugh, part of the reason Jim Carball came to the NFL was Justin Herbert, right?

30:42Or chose the Rogers undoubtedly. Dan Campbell then didn't, this was not like, oh, I get to work with Jared Goff. Let's go. We're going to rock the league. Jared Goff's become a very, once again, a very good quarterback. But my point is that like, this is more, Dan Campbell did the turnaround job and then he kept it going. Unfortunately, I, my argument for him is I do think that the injury bug has played such a role in this team's struggles and their playoff their failures including last season 25th in health now you could argue the same for the Chargers and their offensive line for sure not the entire team but I do think Campbell has already proven that he can execute a turnaround and that he has overcome a lot of adversity in Detroit also obviously I love the game management stuff so they are polar opposites right when it comes to aggression and management.

31:33So what is your case for against Dan Campbell? Just that he was a Ben Johnson merchant and now we're suffering, we're seeing it. I actually liked Dan Campbell a lot. Yeah, I had a hard time. You know, I think if I did this exercise like once a week for the rest of the off season, there would be times when I had him in there. Like I said, I had a just missed list and I had him at 11. I think the emotional intelligence with him, I believe in that kind of more than like with any other head coach in the NFL. I always think back to that hard knocks clip when he was like cutting players and he actually seemed so genuine in that, like it pained him and he had a connection with them.

32:06Now, maybe I'm just a sucker for TV and the music and everything like that, but I do think that's real with him. I like the culture stuff. I like just how sometimes unhinged he is with the game management where he's like, even the analytics don't say go here, but screw it. You know, we're gonna, this is our identity. I love that part with him, maybe more than any other coach here. It is the Ben Johnson, like, can he find, That's the hard part about being the CEO head coach is just filling that pipeline of offensive coaches. And you lose Ben Johnson and he tried last year and it didn't work. And then he took over and it didn't work.

32:39And now he's got Drew Petzing. And I'm not saying that he can't figure it out. There are other things I like about that team. It's not like it was a complete disaster offensively. But I do think that's what their best teams have been, maybe more so with what Ben Johnson was doing with the offense than what he's doing with the whole team. I think what I would argue for Detroit, because I think the biggest case against Dan is that Ben Johnson left and like we saw the impact of Ben Johnson is that I think some of their struggles at times, the offense wasn't even that bad on the whole last season.

33:09At times, it was much more about the offensive line than it was about, wow, we don't have Ben Johnson anymore because Ben Johnson got to call off the dominant offensive line in Detroit. And we've seen that sort of, you know, crumble a little bit. They've been dealing with, you know, retirements and injuries and this and that. And you do have a quarterback who obviously needs a good offensive line. So I think the team was a little bit more fragile than we thought. And, you know, maybe some of that lands on the guy who we'll talk about later, who put the team together. But I still remain a fan of his.

33:40Let's take a quick break. And then after the break, talk about D 'Amico Ryan, who we both have on our list. Most protein drinks ask you to choose between results and taste. Bucked Up decided that's a ridiculous trade-off. Bucked Up makes lightly carbonated protein drinks, 25 grams of protein per can, clear protein, not milky or thick, and they taste so good that 25 grams of protein almost feels like a bonus. Bucked Up is so confident you'll love their drinks. They're giving away an island vacation just to prove it. That's the kind of brand this is. No purchase necessary. Giveaway ends May 30th.

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36:06Shopify.com slash network. Okay, we're back. So I had D 'Amico six. I bumped him at the last second to six over Ben Johnson and Dan Campbell. You had him at nine, you said? Ninth, yeah. We're in the back half. Yeah. Okay. So my thought process was this. And actually, you covered the Seahawks during the Pete Carroll era. So I think he is the closest thing we have to Pete Carroll in the NFL right now, where the defense is built in his image. and while it's less on its face as schemed up as mike mcdonald's and we don't talk about defense demick orion's as being like the architect of a meta jesus someone punch me in the face the next time i try to say that um the way they play the way he's developed players not of all whom were first round draft picks and whatnot speaks to his talent as a coach as a developer as a leader and this was the best I remember I came on your show we did the best defenses in football yes this was to me the outside of Seattle the best defense in football very different styles I think he deserves quite clearly a lot of credit for that Texans defense that we saw I love what you said about identity because it's like it just feels like NFL teams when they face the Texans they're like we're going to be in pain after this game like it's going to be a long week of recovery this is not going to be a good time going up against this defense like the violence the physicality they play with and it's been to your point it's been three seasons now and then he was doing it with the 49ers before then so it's kind of like what we said about Ben Johnson where it's not just the head coaching tenure this was an elite defensive coach before he got the job he's remained an elite defensive coach and offensively I don't know the answer is it he can't find the right offensive coordinator is it the offensive line they haven't made good decisions is it CJ Stroud's not as good as we I thought he was going to be after his rookie season is it some combination of all of it now they've tried different things haven't got it figured out on that side of the ball but even even so they've been to the divisional round the last three years have kind of all looked the same for them, but great defense gets you to the divisional round.

38:29And I think ultimately whether he can get to the super bowl or the Texans can get to the super bowl will be if they figure things out offensively, but I feel good about him kind of coaching. You give him any defensive roster and I feel like he's going to get something out of them. You know, he's able to coach him up. Yeah. He also like the way players talk about him when they cut to it on the side, you're just like, ah, he just has it, you know, like we talked about Dan Campbell and he has it. Um, I think McVeigh is another one I would put in the like, oh, you just have it kind of category. Um, all right.

39:02Did you have Peyton six? If I remember correctly, I had Sean Peyton six. Yes. I had him nine. So we just swapped. Okay. All right. Yes. He was in my top 10. Uh, tell me why you had him so high. I obviously like him as well. Yeah. Listen, there are things about Sean Peyton that I think we can say are annoying. You know, he is, uh, I think I have everything. I find it really funny, but I understand that people don't like it. He's very arrogant. He thinks he's God's gift to coaching. I think he's got a large chunk of maybe some people in the media in his pocket. But you know what? You add all that up, and he's still an excellent – he's an unbelievable coach.

39:36I mean, one of the best coaches of the last 25 years. To go to Denver, the situation they were in, you draft Bo Nix, and they're 24-10 in two years with Bo Nix. And if he doesn't get injured there, maybe they had a Super Bowl appearance last year. So I just trust it with him. I trust the body of work. I trust him as an offensive schemer. And the one thing I'm curious about this year, I mean, this Davis Webb thing, I just feel like is the most confusing thing to me this offseason where I'm like, no one is giving me a good answer. Like, wait, why is Sean Payton giving up play calling duties? He's I actually think he's very good at this.

40:11He has a long track record of being good at this. And I try to get in Sean Payton's head. and all I can think of is he's like, well, if Davis Webb sucks for the first four or five weeks, I can come in and save the day and my legacy looks even better. So that's the kind of coach we're talking about, but still a great coach. It's a little weird. I think the fact that he, I mean, he rebounded from the Russell Wilson era, not just the Russell Wilson era, but the way it ended could have gone so badly for so many coaches and then immediately started winning despite early on up and down play from the quarterback.

40:50The fact that he has developed a young quarterback who many folks were skeptical about when he was drafted, you know, even after he was drafted. And you've seen legitimate improvement over the years. I think he deserves, you know, because I think we probably should be talking a little bit more about, you know, I talk about we talk about like offensive play caller merchants. quarterback is a big thing with a lot of these like yeah are you good or do you just have Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen you know that that was a question I thought with Harbaugh I was like I wish I had been a little bit more critical of this and I think with Peyton the fact that he's done the opposite is really impressive um Vance Joseph I think deserves a decent amount of credit for were the defense, which is kind of the identity of this Broncos team.

41:36But the total, the winning record, I mean, I guess my question for you would be like, when you look at the wins that they've had, the fact that they were knocking on the door of the Super Bowl, had their quarterback not get injured. Is he really worse than Jim Harbaugh? Because you had Harbaugh over him and Payton, to me, has kind of a better resume. I just had that thought as I was, as I was giving the defense for Sean Payton. Wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, I think I would probably take him over Jim Harbaugh. One minute with Bo Nix. I mean, like, Broncos fans get mad whenever you say anything mildly.

42:09But, like, I'm just saying, like, Bo Nix is young, right? And the fact that he has developed him this much, I think he deserves a lot of credit. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, to just get out of a horrible quarterback situation, draft a guy who other people maybe didn't have as high, and to win that many games and to throw him the Chiefs finally and to win that many games. um yeah he probably maybe even deserves to be a little bit higher okay so you had lafleur eight and this is what where i raised because i had campbell who's not on your list and you had la fleur yeah who i was a matt lafleur apologist for years i would point to his great winning record i would point to their unbelievable offenses despite the lack of the stud receiver i think he just broke me last year yeah he just broke me I I he almost I kept putting him on and off and on and off and ultimately just outside why did you ultimately decide to keep him on the list because I have to think you were similarly frustrated by him at times I was yeah I mean seven seasons he's 76 40 and one he's made the playoffs six times two championship game appearances now the playoffs have been ugly and that's always our lasting image of Matt LaFleur every year is kind of he's three and six in the postseason it is absolutely fair to criticize a lot of his the way he's handled the postseason but then I look at you mentioned quarterbacks and I think his work with quarterbacks is pretty underrated developing Jordan Love Malik Willis comes in it's the Malik Willis thing is a big feather in his cap or we're just all looking at that going man he just did this like on the fly and this offense looks really good what I actually feel about Matt LaFleur is if he were in a different setup.

43:49Like, I think his flaws are fixable. This is it. We can fix him. I mean, I think game management and let me pick your DC, Matt LaFleur. You know, if you just, I'm going to hire an analytics person for you and they're going to tell you what to do during the game. And then I'm going to find you your defensive coordinator. Everything else I like about you, we're going to get over the hump and go to the Super Bowl. Like that's, you know, you mentioned Sirianni earlier. I was thinking about this. I was like, if LaFleur was in the Eagles organization and they're like, here, we got you, Vic Fangio. here listen to this guy in the booth i'm like they would be unbelievable so i think the flaws that he actually has are fixable i don't know when they're going to get fixed but i do think there is a great coach there and there have been a lot of good results even if the final result every year leaves us a little skeptical do you think he likes not having a number one receiver because it justifies the second and 10 runs i know the run rate is wild but then they also produce a lot of explosive plays generally can't produce an explosive you don't have far to go uh no he's a really good play caller i don't know i i just he just drove me so insane last year but i i i he he is probably the biggest comeback candidate because he has shown that i mean the packers offense even despite the frustration and despite the lack of you know i i actually like the receiver group a decent amount but like i think the number the production does speak for itself.

45:15And yeah, like you said, the things he did with Malik Willis, I think, part of me thinks felt like he enjoyed it more than Colin. Which is for a lot of these guys. Yeah. Doesn't mean that Willis is anywhere close to love. It just is, he liked being the scheme Lord, I think. All right. So I have, we're down to 10 because we've all, we've used up. I had Ryan, as a reminder, Ryan's at six, Ben Johnson at seven, Dan Campbell at eight and Sean Payton at nine. Can you remind folks of your six, seven, eight, nine? Because we, at this point, neither has revealed our 10. Yeah. I had Sean Payton at six, Andy Reid at seven, Matt LaFleur at eight, D 'Amico Ryans at nine.

45:57All right. I'm like embarrassed to say my 10. I'm like, I don't know if I got, I don't think, I don't know if I got this right, but maybe if you're embarrassed, I know I want to guess it. Shane Steichen? No. I don't know that I should be embarrassed. I don't know. I just look at it, and I don't think it's going to be who you had at 10, but maybe I'm wrong. Liam Cohen already? No. I need to see a little more. He's volatile. I like what I've seen. He was on my right. Yes. This is one. Okay. O 'Connell? Yeah, I had KOC. I had KOC. Oh, you did? Okay. KOC versus Dan Campbell. I was just sitting there earlier today going, like, this is really hard.

46:38I had Campbell over him, clearly. yeah they're so different by the way the entire nfc north is on my list as if as this three-fourths of the how much does it suck to be an arizona cardinals fan and three of the top four coaches in the nfl are three the top three coaches in the nfl are on your division yeah why did my wife will flirt take that job crazy um okay so i have the entire nfc north i just realized that now i didn't i didn't think about it um and we both had o 'connell tough year last season quarterbacks teams fail quarterbacks it's uh it's tough when you put out a quote like that and you know it starts to uh i part of me i i did write fraud watch question mark no i don't mean that but part of me also just i'm just like buying the vikings and i think this is a pick that could potentially look good next year yeah process i had the same thing i had that thought for a few of these guys like definitely that probably affected my jim harbaugh uh pick early and a couple others but yeah i i looked at o 'connell and i thought all right he won what 13 plus games with cousins he won 13 plus games with darnold and then i started going well come on that's how much of that is brian flores but then i was like anybody could have hired brian flores i mean he was what the linebackers coach of the steelers and all the other teams could have been like hey we want to hire you as our defensive coordinator and i think you know some of the things you hear with But it's like you just got to let Flores be in his office and cook and don't get in his way.

48:05And it takes a little bit of leadership or humility or self-awareness to just be willing to do that. And he's been willing to do that. So I like what he's done with his staff. I like what he's done with the quarter. I mean, they went 9-8 last year. That's like one of the craziest stats from last season is they still had a winning record. So, yeah, I am buying the KOC stock, but I am a little nervous about it. The counter is that they went 9-8 because the defense, and as you said, the defense is not his responsibility. And if I'm going to call, you know, we're going to call Dan Campbell, Ben Johnson merchant, we got to call Calvin O 'Connell.

48:39Brian Flores merchant. And he also benefits from the honorary Steve Spagnuolo. Huh, I guess this guy is just going to be a defensive coordinator award forever. And there are obviously, Brian Flores suing the league for racial discrimination is a much, you know, earlier I said about Mike Rabel, the league tolerates anything. That's not quite true. That's not quite true. You found one thing. Yeah, the one thing. But I do think when you look at O 'Connell's body of work, the fact that he was able to produce so well with mid to better quarterbacks, Darnold had his renaissance there, even surviving, you know, some of the games without him or with really some pretty horrendous quarterback play over the years speaks to his play-calling abilities.

49:28He just ran into one that was too hard. It's like, what is that meme of like, God, give me your greatest challenges or this is too much. But I do think we are going to see a bounce back. I think he's a very good play-caller. By all accounts, he's a good leader. And like you said with Flores, like sometimes actually managing or like having the humility or ability to let somebody completely take over one side the ball is also a skill in of itself um was there anyone else that you were tempted we named a few of them cohen i guess stiking because i was like the job you did last year it was daniel jones but he wasn't on my list just you know not good enough who else did you consider yeah Campbell was my big miss he was an easy 11 Steichen you mentioned I had him on the just missed list Liam Cohen I just I feel like there's a little the personality the volatility I'm like let me see another year and make sure this but it has been very impressive what he's done there and then you mentioned John Harbaugh earlier like is he definitely not I mean I felt like there was definitely a case that he could be in the top 10 I didn't love what he did with the staff in New York here, especially on the offensive side of the ball.

50:45And I was like, if I'm going to ding Andy Reid for are his best days behind him, do I feel that way with John Harbaugh? The guy who took the guy he like maybe fired. Yeah, no, I wrote Harbaugh. I'm right. I had him on my outside the top 10 looking in. I'm interested in seeing what Dave Canales does this year because if they continue their trajectory, that would be one to watch. I had LeFleur too, if you're just outside. So that's it. I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule, and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self-injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo Pre-Filled Syringe, which contains F-Gartigamide Alpha and Hyaluronidase QVFC.

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53:14All right. Top five GMs. I had an easy top four and then a very, very, I went back and forth a million times on top five. How about you? I thought this was, I looked at this and I was like, 75 % of GMs can all be grouped together. And it's just who lucked out with the quarterback or who looked lucked out with the great coach. Like I had a very hard time. Really? No, I think we'll have some crossover. But yeah, I mean, because some of these guys, I'm like, I like them a lot now. But hold on, let me look at the whole resume. Oh, when this big event happened, whether it was coach or quarterback, oh, they suddenly got really smart.

53:52So I found this to be very difficult, actually. Did you not have Howie Roseman number one, who I had number one? I did have Howie Roseman number one. So we'll start with the obligatory Howie Roseman number one. See, the reason why I think he's a clear number one is you can take all of what you described, which is, did he have the elite quarterback? Did he have the elite coach? And it doesn't really apply to Howie Roseman. Like, unlike some, like, Howie Roseman is one where I can point to and say, no, you are the constant amidst all of the change over the years all of the coaches and the quarterbacks and you know say like he to me is the team is him it really is and uh he's been GM for so long it's interesting because it's really long tenured guys at the top for me like a lot of them and I think that speaks to something when we talk about the number two which is if they let you do this long enough, you'll probably turn out to be right.

54:49But the thing about Roseman is he's just been so active, right? Like even in the draft, we were reacting to the McKay Lemon trade. I looked this up. He averages over three and a half trades draft as a GM of the Eagles, which is amongst most of any GM. And when you look at his moves, I mean, good Lord, right? Like 2021 moving with Miami to move down and then back up for Devante Smith, 2022 trading with the saints to move down those picks become Jalen Carter and Cooper Degene like I it just he's good at training players before it's too late quarterbacks Wentz Bradford the dude is just he's had misses for sure and you can point to them over every year but the body of work to me of which he was active as far as just like letting things happen it's pretty undeniable that he is the number one GM in the league and I think this is the best he's ever been when you like these Eagles rosters are the last three years are the best of like my lifetime.

55:47And I think his strength has become, I am going to coordinate with every single department in the building, coaching and analytics and scouting and sports science and ownership and medical. And like, I'm going to gather all the information and then we're just going to try to make smart bets and not like, like the contents of sport and all that, like they are sticking to it. Um, and I think that maybe, you know, in the past, maybe it's like, all right, this is my show. Um, you know, some jams, it's like the old school idea of they're just in a dark room watching film. Oh my gosh, I see something in this player I've never seen before.

56:19I think he's realized that's not the job. The job is to like coordinate with all these different departments, get all the information and make a decision and then getting out of messes. Like you mentioned the Carson Wentz thing, like when things have gone bad for him, like individual years during Howie Roseman's tenure and he finds a way to dig out of it. And it doesn't take that long before they're right back in the playoffs. So yeah, I think this is definitely the best version of howie roseman we've ever seen who did you have two i had john schneider okay yeah yeah all right so yeah i okay so this is obviously what i was alluding to when i said if they let you do this long enough you'll start getting it right and i don't mean that sounds like shade but it like shiner was a comeback story right because this the team the drafts were just so bad for like over five years but um they let him stick around and then he rebounded and some of that has to do with where they were picking for sure but like also he's really hit on players in later rounds too and over the last few years this has arguably been one of the three best drafting teams in football he also talked about moving on from quarterbacks I mean could not have timed moving on from Russell Wilson and Geno Smith any better decisions that I personally and incorrectly criticized at the time so you know there's not Oh, by the way, going back to the drafts too, there were some really awful trades back then.

57:43Jamal Adams' trade comes to mind. There's some other ones. But then in recent years, they've been good trades again, right? Even like a trade like Leonard Williams. I mean, when that happened, people were critical of it. People thought, really? Like for half a season, you want to keep this guy and overpay him? And he's become arguably the core player on this Seahawks defensive line. So just total body of work over the last three-ish years, three plus years has been spectacular, combing and aiding, of course, in the Super Bowl win. Yeah, I mean, 16 seasons, 11 playoff berths, three Super Bowl appearances, two Super Bowl titles with two different head coaches.

58:21I actually, I was trying to think, I was like, what is John Schneider's superpower? And I think it might be that he might be a great hang. You know, like people are just like, man, it's fun to come to, you know? Yeah, well, I just think like people are like, oh it's fun to come to work for this guy you know like he is a uh uh it's sort of a leadership style that i think works well for him where people feel empowered to do their jobs uh and they like coming to work and that kind of thing because to your point the individual decisions just if we're looking at whether it's draft picks or trades or whatever i would quibble with a lot of them probably over the years i'd be like this isn't what a sharp gm might do but i think he nailed the biggest decision and that was hiring Mike McDonald where you know that was his job it was like we're giving you the keys even Pete Carroll saying it at his final press conference like all right you're gonna see what the job's like and he's like I'm gonna go hire Mike McDonald and then two years later they win a Super Bowl so yeah I thought even though I don't always agree with it sounds stupid for me to say how he uses resources it's just like the resume is kind of unimpeachable I'm glad you mentioned to you yeah the Pete Carroll moving on from Pete Carroll hiring Mike McDonald I'm gonna talk about the quarterback decisions but that was not a decision that people loved at the time that was one that I did like people listen to the show know I thought it was time and I loved the McDonald hire but it has even surpassed my you know I was over the moon when they got him and I even that like even as excited as I was I wasn't excited enough right like good god um yeah he's on the tour i was like the coach i feel like is kind of like you know when i look at the super bowl i mean he definitely put together the roster i mean jason he deserves a lot of credit but the coach deserves a lot of credit too but you know uh the fact if you had told me five years ago shiel if you told us that we would be talking about john schneider again this way would not have seen this coming.

1:00:16And it kind of makes you wonder, are teams too quick to move on from GMs? I don't know. I don't know if I have a good answer for that. But he did make a comeback. Okay, three, I have Les Snead. I had Les Snead four. I didn't feel that strongly about it. But he was one that I was mentioning earlier where I was looking at the resume pre Sean McVay and post Sean McVay. And I think Les Snead is a good GM, but there were some, what five straight losing seasons with him as GM. Now, once you get McVay and you feel like you have a chance to win, I liked that he went forward and even the F them picks. It was like, he's, he's doing that in the first round, but he's getting those picks back later and they're finding some gems later and he built a good roster.

1:01:05So I do like him, but I did feel a little conflicted where I'm like, I mean, he nailed it with Sean McVay. how much credit does he get for all the other stuff the 2024 23 and 22 drafts go crazy and i think you know he deserves a lot of credit when they didn't have outside of jared verse who was their first first round pick which they obviously nailed but then other than that in those drafts they did not have you know those first round picks and you're looking at the core of this rams roster from those years moving backwards. Brayden Fisk, Blake Corum, who's become, by the way, a really important player.

1:01:44Cam Kitchens, Josh Cardi, Steve Avila, Byron Young, Kobe Turner, Warren McClendon, who's become, I mean, he's hit on a lot of offensive linemen at later rounds. Obviously, Puka Nakua, one of the picks, right, of the defining picks of this generation of football players. Kobe Duran, who's gone now, was a good player. Kyron Williams, Quentin Lake. Yeah, I mean, those are all good players. Like really good players. Like he's just hit, hit, hit. A lot of those F them picks trades have worked out. We'll see if the secondary, the McDuffie one does. Um, the Ty Simpson one pick. You can't, I, I thought about like, cause obviously, you know, I had my reservations and criticisms about it.

1:02:26I'm sure you did too. I felt like this can't affect my evaluation now, but ask me about it. It's funny. Cause we won't even know for, well, actually if next year Devante Adam gets hurt, Adams gets hurt and they don't have receiver, then I do think we can start criticizing it. Right. Like they don't have, but that definitely felt like a, he is loading up that chip with dip and let's see what happens. Move moment for, for big less. Yeah. Cause one of the things I wrote down when I was doing this, I'm like, I love that he goes for it. Like he knew they had a chance to win a super bowl and they're making.

1:03:00And then I'm like, wait, but this is not what he just did, you know, a month ago. And I'm like, why did you do that? You should have stuck with the go for it. Maybe it'll look smart down the road. But yeah, that was one that I didn't necessarily agree with. But I think overall, they've kind of maximized their chances to win Super Bowls or compete for Super Bowls with McVeigh and Stafford. Is your number three my number four, which is Jason Light? He was my number five. Ooh, who's your number three? I feel like you're probably going to rip me for this, and I probably deserve it. Eric DaCosta? that okay so he was on my second tier he did not make my top five okay make see he to me got the like lamar jackson is doing a lot of the work here who you didn't even draft on so make the case again i i wish i could give a strong case i would just look i was kind of just uh over less yeah I mean I just felt like all right seven seasons they've been really good and I know it's not all him I understand Lamar Jackson he was handed John Harbaugh was there who I still think is a good coach I do feel like he's a little bit in kind of the Howie Roseman mold where he is trying to get all the information from the different areas and make a smart decision and not try to overthink it and it's kind of like that decision just kidding yeah that's right He's cutthroat.

1:04:26He's competitive. He can get out of a bad situation. We learned that this offseason with Max Crosby. So I like that. They seem to have a good sense of like what types of players will fit there. And they kind of have an identity. They've just been really good during his tenure there. But again, I had a hard time deciphering how much of that is him, how much of that is the quarterback, how much of that is the coach. But when I was looking at, all right, do I like these other guys outside of my top five better than him? I thought, no, I think he probably deserves to be in there. Yeah, looking at the Ravens draft history, I mean, a lot of guys hit in later rounds who have become good players for them.

1:05:03I mean, Matabuike, who I totally forgot was a third rounder. Man, do you remember that? That's crazy. Queen was their first rounder that year. But, you know, scrolling up, Travis Jones is a third rounder, really good player. Isaiah Likely was a fourth rounder.

1:05:22Rosen Garden has been really good for them. Wiggins looks good. Lots of really last year's drafts kind of still undecided, but like lots of really good players. I do think I have, as I kind of have regarded my own, maybe I've overrated this team a little bit going into every season. I think the line of scrimmage is where I've been like, maybe they haven't quite, you know, they still haven't found that edge rusher, right? That they've been looking for. they still don't have that like number one even if zay flowers is a good really good player wide receiver for and the offensive line has some issues although i did love the picks uh this year the pick this year so definitely worthy of consideration no doubt also by the way the fact that he navigated the lamar situation and they ultimately i wouldn't say won but it worked out obviously for them probably deserve some credit for that too right because that was pretty volatile for those who have forgotten.

1:06:18Okay, so I had light. I won't get into it too much. I just think he continually smashes it in the draft. I feel like every year they put together one of my favorite drafts from top to bottom. I think this roster is just really well constructed. Also, as a team that has struggled to find that edge rusher, I think, since they won the Super Bowl, but he's got the resume too. And I think also the difference between Eric Dacosta has Lamar Jackson and Jason Light has Baker Mayfield. And obviously the Bucs, you know, last year kind of fell apart. I also think coaching and maybe life deserves some criticism for, you know, I think Todd Bowles might be that might be time to kind of wind it down.

1:07:02But I just think he continuously finds really, really good players, both either values in the draft or good values in free agency, including Horace Baker, and deserves a lot of credit for that. yeah it seems like their rosters are always good and he makes common sense moves and he hasn't had a difference making coach or quarterback since the end of the Tom Brady era but you know the teams have still been uh pretty decent but he's an ease to your point about if you stick around long enough I mean 12 seasons he's been there they've made the playoffs five times you know it's kind of like all right those Brady years were very good and then I think they stayed afloat better than we all maybe expected post brady but uh i'm a little curious to see kind of what direction i don't want to say they're directionless they're they're not but um i don't know what like the next three years look like losing cohen i feel like that was tough and yeah yeah they're they're in a tough they are in that tough just good enough spot which is always a hard place to be in the nfl but i don't think it's because of him um all right i so wait so you had okay to revisit you had howie john at three you had da costa yes wild uh and then at five you had jason light no and i had sneed at four you had seen a four okay okay so we've gotten to all my guys yep all right who are you missing oh my fifth i struggled with this one this was brad holmes spot but i just felt like when i looked at the roster and some of the problems with it you're starting everybody always uses the lions as the test case or the example of like you should go off the board and draft who you want and positions don't matter until it's like wait we don't have another edge rusher and our offensive line is falling like it's just i think they're they're starting to see some hole it's i still think he's really good and i do think they'll be a good team i just kind of have questions about the roster i think he also similar to um Dan Campbell deserves some grace for the injury bad luck.

1:09:02I went with Nick Casario. Really? Okay. Did you consider him at all? I did not. Okay. But make the case. Maybe I should. Like I said, I had a lot of these guys bunched together. So make the case for Casario. My case for Casario is he's kind of nailed every single thing except the offensive line, which admittedly is very been bad. It's been very bad. And it's a problem. and everything they did last offseason I hated I like this offseason a little bit better but um man looking at some of his moves in his drafts he built this roster and it is very good Jill I mean since he took over starting from 2021 Nico Collins a third rounder for those who forgot top five eight receiver in the NFL not five was that was rich sorry top 10 receiver in the NFL yeah uh 2022 was stingley petrie 2023 cj strad will anderson a move that at the time i thought was insane i ripped it for sure yeah freaking he gets the w there will anderson jr is one of the like five best where um tank dell's had the injury but even like value like henry 202 has become like a capable linebacker for them 2024 lassiter bullock stover all outside the first round uh and then last year higgins looked solid for them second round receiver he's a starter signed um you know hunter zizel shair even assigning like i will say the offensive line as much i didn't like their moves i was like this ed ingram signing kidding me and he ended up being pretty capable for them so i didn't think collectively like this was a horrendous roster obviously when he took over to the point where we were talking about you know um the tank job David Cully and now it is one of the best rosters in the NFL now again the offensive line is completely worthy of criticism and he bears responsibility for that but I do think he deserves a lot of credit for how this thing was built I think it's a strong case uh if you look at it overall 39 45 and one so six games under 500 with him as the GM but I think I struggled with him because a lot of the moves he makes at the time he made them like even nico collins i remember being like i don't think they had a lot of picks that year and he was like trading up for nico collins who was you know it was like all right he's got some upside a lot of the moves have hit and so he deserves credit for it but i'm wondering if like the process is all even the will anderson one you mentioned like yeah is that just they saw something that no one else saw and he absolutely deserves all the credit for it or it's like he got that one right but if he does it again next year it could blow up in his face type type thing so i think that's what i struggled with with casario with some of this and then even rebuild yeah rebuilding the offensive line last off season where it's like wait these are the guys you're replacing i know but it's awful like you said they kind of got more out of some of those guys than we were anticipating so in terms of results i think there is a certainly a case for him i do kind of question some of the process behind some of the decisions i guess that's where i'd be with casario yeah i'll be interested in seeing because they've kind of that was like okay we're the thing about making aggressive moves like they did for stroud and anderson is like the team part of the reason i ripped it i was like this team stinks so they're that draft picks can be too valuable yeah but i think he correctly realized these are our two foundational players and we are a bad team we're a young team and we need those players to be good and to like that's going to be the core on both sides of the football and he hit on both of them in my mind and whatever you think about cj stride it was a good draft pick in my opinion so yeah i don't know i also just couldn't bring myself to put anyone about i was looking at like george patten in denver i mean god the wilson move he looks super brave for doing that and it's succeeding and they've hit on some players um i considered brian guttkunst but i just kind of feel like the the packers roster has too many holes right now i'm too nervous about it?

1:13:05I had him on my just missed where I'm like, wait a minute. He's my just miss as well. Yeah. Like I have a, uh, an idea of Brian good accounts in my head, but I have never once in my life considered him a top five GM until this exercise. And then I'm like, wait, is he a top five GM? Like they, he's been there for eight seasons. They've won 82 games during that stretch. The Jordan love move. Now, you know, we can quibble with it at like the time, but like to go from Aaron Rogers to Jordan love, I liked the Micah Parsons trade. Even when Devon Dante Adams wanted out. They maximized value there. I'm like, good against.

1:13:38I'm sorry. You know, he's done so many smart things and also hit on guys later in the draft. I mean, Tarcraft might be like one of the three best Titans in football right now. Like if some of the defensive players on the spine of that defense, like, but really like high value positions. I'm like, oh, like offensive tackle, pass rusher outside of Parsons. you're just like, oh, you haven't really... It's like he's hit on a quarterback being the most important thing, but at some of those other positions, receiver, you're just like, oh, a little bit shaky. All right, well, so to revisit, I had Howie, John Schneider, Les Snead, Jason Light, Nick Casario, and you had Howie, John Schneider, Eric DaCosta, Les Snead, was your fourth, right?

1:14:30Yes. Fourth, yep. Okay, fourth. And then your fifth was Jason Light. Real quick, Brett, do we need to do like 90 seconds on Brett Veach? Because I feel like it's – no, you're done. Okay. No, I've just – that roster has been such a problem now for – Yeah. Am I crazy? I was thinking, is there a Brett Veach-Siriani comp there? Where it's just like he kind of – if you look at the pro football reference page, you're like he's got to be a top five at his position. but I don't think most people believe that. I think it's sort of right place, right time, right situation. If he hits on all those defensive picks, there's potential for a turnaround here.

1:15:13Like if one of Peter Woods or R. Mason Thomas is an impact plus starter, you're one, and Delane, who I really like, then I feel comfortable revisiting this next year. But I think the last few years have not been kind. I agree. All right, Sheil, folks can check out the Ringer NFL show once a week as well during the offseason or follow Sheil Kapadia. You're on Blue Sky, Sheil Kapadia, right? I'm everywhere, yeah. You're everywhere on Sheil Kapadia, Twitter as well. I will be back next week to do quarterbacks, your friend, Ben Solak. That will, I'm sure, inspire some rage. on the internet. I haven't worked on my list yet, but I'm excited for that one.

1:16:03Thank you, as always, to my friends at Omaha Productions who make this show, Kirsten Subecki, Owen Saylor, Jack Foster, Tucker Taschen. Also, if you are watching The Boys or Euphoria, I'm recapping that on YouTube as well. My other pod, David Dennis Jr. and I co-host, Viewer Discretion. We're also going to do this season of Perfect Match on Netflix. For those who follow the Netflix reality universe, you'll know what we're talking about. and that's it for now alright gotta get back to my spelling bee prep