Styles Make Fights: The Top Defensive Prospects in the Draft

45:28And like some of that stuff seemed to be like maybe it's coachable, but it just felt like a little bit slower on the awareness than you would want from a player like that. But I think he has a high floor and a pretty high ceiling. But, of course, the probability of him hitting that ceiling, I think it's lower as you get deeper in the draft. Yeah, Cash's house is often ranked above him out of A &M. And very productive college rusher, 11 sacks, 41 pressures, three TFLs. Similar to Reuben Bain Jr., short arms and small, 6 '2", 248. He plays like a honey badger. that's what I wrote for better or worse.

46:08I mean, he is explosive. He jumps off the line of scrimmage. He is an absolute maniac. He's agile. But I do think the size shows up both getting locked up. And it's amazing because he has 11 sacks. A lot of them come from him just like jumping on the quarterback. Because he's not able to use his length to reach out and grab guys. And it speaks to how fast he is, to be honest. But I do worry about that at the NFL. yeah I wrote plays small but I think that's probably the wrong terminology but I think what I what I meant was like you can see there are some players that we talked about Arvel Reese where his size doesn't really show up as an issue for how oh yeah I see this like being a problem for him in the league like this is a awesome guy situational we'll throw you out there on nickel and dime and use your speed but I wouldn't want like this to be my starting edge first round is i was like wow man yeah yeah i didn't i don't got it there for me he feels like to me like the second rounder who like you said comes in and it's part of the fast rush and they're like damn he is like why doesn't he play more and it's like well um okay let's talk about the defensive tackles there's really three that are under consideration i think for the first round unless i'm totally missing some but i've been doing these mocks dominique and they all keep dropping And so we'll see.

47:32It's hard to rank them because Kane McDonald is just such a completely different thing from what you're getting out of him is so different. I actually want to start with him, though, because I do think he's going to go in the first round because his skill set is so obvious. And it's that he's got to stop the run. Ohio State, 6 '3", 326. He is a textbook NFL nose tackle. And boy, is he a nose tackle. Plug his biggest defensive line, and he will eat up double teams. I thought in the Indiana game he was excellent, and they averaged 3.5. That's a very good running team, averaged over five yards per carry, the only average 3.5 against Ohio State.

48:17And he was a big part of the reason why. The question, of course, is just whether there's pass rush upside. And people are divided on that. It didn't show up a lot. there are flashes of it. I would say even in look at my notes from that game, there were a couple times where he actually had some pass rush wins with arm overs and, and quick penetration, but it's going to take a second. So Dominic's shaking his head. But if you're a team that needs a run stopping defensive tackle, he's going to be good immediately, I think. Nothing to add. Yeah. I mean, And don't, I, he's awesome. He's enormous. He took out the shit out of whatever situation you want him to.

48:58Those, them guards are not going to get up to your linebackers. Like his impact on the game, I think is inarguable. I would guard against convincing yourself that he's going to be a pass rush threat. Like, I don't see him as an every down player. Like, even in college, I think he, like, averaged, like, 28, 29 snaps a game. In college, where it's like 60 to 70 snaps in a college game, like, a guy that size, you're not expecting to be out there that much. And he doesn't have the, like, the testing athleticism that you, I think you would say for a player his size would turn into a pass rush. I just don't know what people are drawing on to give that projection, which doesn't mean he's not a first rounder.

49:56I still – I would take him in the first round. And as we see the league moving more and more to base, I really see his value in running the ball a lot more. I really see his value, but I wouldn't convince myself that he's going to turn into a legitimate pass rush threat. Tylek Williams, also Ohio State knows, was drafted 28th by the Detroit Lions. That feels like the range, 25 with the Bears and down for KM. I also think his value is somewhat boosted by the fact that this is just not, to me, the defensive tackles. Yeah.

50:38It's dubious at the top. So the other two are Peter Woods out of Clemson and Caleb Banks out of Florida. Let's start with Banks because you have strong feelings about him. Yeah. I mean, I really like Caleb Banks. He had a foot injury. He didn't play much last year. The thing about his tape is when you watch it, it's impressive. It's amazing. The 2024 tape. Yeah, yeah. The 2024 tape is impressive. It's amazing. um it doesn't translate into a lot of production which is i think concerning but you can see the impact that he has on a on a team he's enormous so like he gives you the 6 '6 3 30 size that could be a nose tackle but he has the athleticism and explosion that you could see from guys that size like they turn there is i i would say compared to mcdonald like the the ceiling for caleb banks is is all pro um pro bowl that's that's his ceiling where the floor is i guess for the floor for mcdonald i think it's probably higher but caleb banks man it's impressive uh the foot so just to let me get the details yeah so he barely played in 2025 with the foot which he hurt that fall um he heard it in camp missed the first two games broke it immediately had surgery and then fractured it again at the combine which is not great and that's a shame because the 2024 tape has some jaw-dropping moments the lsu game in particular is like first round you know high first round top five yeah like it's unbelievable he he i'm talking to who did i compared to Chris Jones.

52:30He looks like Chris Jones. Yeah. Yeah. He's built like him. His foot work, his agility at foot speed brother is at his size is very special and very rare. But he's a big guy with foot problems. Yeah. And that's scary stuff, man. It is not like foot big is a bad combination and throw my hands up and say it's your medical evaluation, not mine. NFL teams. It's a little high cut, I would say, like a little bit top heavy. he's good against the run but it's a lot of TFLs and early penetration but yeah he is if you could tell me he was healthy I would put him in the top 12 easy yeah Woods is a really frustrating watch out of Clemson he's again a guy who had good tape better tape last year or the year before yeah lack of production only three sacks last year so what I find so frustrating because I I watched him early and then I, yeah, my opinions kind of soured the more I watched.

53:36So, so I'm watching him first and I'm like, whew, he is winning at the live scrimmage. He is getting up field. He is knifing through those gaps. He is jumping. And then I'd be like, oh, he just missed the quarterback. I'm sure he'll get him next time or the running back. and then the more I watched I was like he's still not getting and that's what I think is kind of confusing is he wins so quickly and he gets in the backfield but he just doesn't bring guys down and there's missed tackles and I don't know if that's something he can improve at because I do think the explosiveness of his first step in agility are traits that are promising but the lack of translation to me dominique is a little bit confusing at times yeah i mean he he's capable of playing everywhere across the line and they put him at edge at clemson sometimes and to your point explosiveness and athleticism for a guy his size to be able to play there and produce is impressive um to your point uh that's i mean that's the positive stuff that jumps off and his best stuff is good enough to have him i think most people rank him as the best um interior defensive lineman in the draft so like that's his good stuff is there the thing that jumped out to me that gave me some concern the word i wrote was like inconsistent and it's not because of like lack of effort because like i rarely see him not playing hard like i have him as someone who plays hard.

55:15Good run defender too, by the way. Yeah, which, I mean, correlates with someone who plays hard and stick their nose in there. It's just like inconsistent play where, to your point, like see him get beaten off the ball. I have that written down in my notes. It's like there's a couple times where he gets beaten off the ball. It's like, but you're so explosive. But maybe it's a combo of him like being his size, and they do play him all game long in all those positions. So there's ways to explain it away, but he's not. But yeah, my evaluation is pretty close to yours. We'll see how many, if any, go for...

55:51I could see maybe one or two of the going first round, but this is not a defensive tackle heavy draft for sure. All right, let's take a quick break, come back and talk about one of the best players in the entire draft at the linebacker position. Hey, y 'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder, what if? Like, what if it doesn't fit? A little to the left. No, wait! Yep, should have gone with Wayfair. Or what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. Should have ordered from Wayfair. Or what if it's that material that makes that noise? It was a sofa, I swear.

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59:01I guess we should have talked about whether or not – Yeah. I think Arvel Reese can be an edge. So there you go. That's why I talked about him there. I think you do want to play – I mean, he is a really freaking good linebacker. Yeah. Can we take a moment and acknowledge how insane it is that Ohio State didn't win the National Championship? You've watched it. defense because holy mackerel they are good um okay so study styles uh ohio state built in a lab to play the position built in a lab period six foot five two or four three pounds gigantic wingspan gigantic frame destroyed the combine did everything at an extremely high level um The first thing I'll say is this.

59:46I cannot, when I watched him, cannot believe that he hasn't been playing linebacker his whole life. Yeah. He was safety. He it is tackle teach tape baby. Holy mo spokes. I love watching this young man meet the ball carrier because it is it is gorgeous from both a technique standpoint from an eye standpoint from a violent standpoint. I just absolutely love watching his tackling reps. um i didn't watch him until after the combine okay and i was funny because i my film study showed the exact opposite of what i expected knew he was a former safety saw him put up big numbers and was like yeah he's probably a speedy linebacker who's like really great in coverage and not that physical.

1:00:47I watched it and was like, this motherfucker is a linebacker. And he was butting and pressing and shedding big tech. Like, all that stuff was there. And I was actually surprised to see, like, he was good in coverage, but I expected him to be a little bit more comfortable and more natural in coverage. Maybe they'd have left him at safety if he was. That probably, just because I would have thought that, like, a bad safety would be better in coverage than a good covered linebacker. but he wasn't bad in coverage. He just was like, oh, I was anticipating I'm going to come in and see this super athlete who don't want to hit nothing.

1:01:21I got the opposite. I was like, this dude is an old school linebacker. And yeah, I don't know what they were doing at previous levels to not put him there. But yeah, he feels like a perfect linebacker. Yeah, same experience. Like it's just the physicality that it, but it's like whether he's like meeting the back head on or from an angle like he's just such a good tackler like such a boring thing to say but it's tackling man like tackling the tackling is just really really special um and it's interesting because he gets comped to fred warner a like decent amount and obviously that is a god level comp and a dangerous one to make um and i think that potential is there for sure but you know i he's gonna have to learn more i think at the next level from a coverage standpoint route recognition some run play run pass stuff you can see him get fooled a little bit he has the potential to do it all i think can i ask you um um i guess it's a little different i've been we've been kind of having this ongoing conversation about positional value when it comes to Sonny Styles and Caleb Downs.

1:02:43And obviously there are exceptions to every rule. And given the quality of this draft and given the potential of Sonny Styles, would you be willing to violate some of the, like, positional value rules in drafting Sonny Styles? it's so funny you ask that because i've been asking myself why am i being more generous from positional value standpoint talking about styles versus love because i've you know i've gotten into people about jeremiah love and i think here's why and your question gets cuts to this both i think the opportunity cost and the money factors into this right like because they both play positions that are not paid a lot.

1:03:31You can get extract more value if you hit on an edge rusher, receiver, whatever. That applies to both of them. I think the difference though, is that increasingly I feel linebacker is less of a context dependent position and a more important position in terms of like affecting everyone around them. Like I just think what you're not going to get the most out of a running back unless you already have a good offensive line. I feel that at the core of my being, I believe that is true. whereas i think a linebacker can solve more problems and so does that yeah i think i think you're right i think one other thing i've been toying with and i guess i need to like buckle down and do some research to be able to like fully develop this theory is that like the game evolves and positional value changes and it felt like part of the mcveigh revolution is isolate and it's not fair to do that to Kyle Shanahan, I guess it's him also, is we were moving to smaller and smaller linebackers in order to compensate for this game.

1:04:36And it feels like the game is involved in that offenses are targeting these linebackers in a way in the past where they would design schemes in order to target corners, which then the value of the corner went up dramatically. I think it feels to me like we're on the precipice of this linebacker position is inside linebacker position value going like a value correction if it's a position that can be isolated in attack to which it feels like we can out it is if you don't have a player that is comfortable there then it feels like it breaks your deep and then we've seen like the Seahawks defense the Ravens defense both defenses that went to another level when they had that middle inside linebacker.

1:05:23I'm just not sure that we have linebacker, which to your point, the money, how much they're getting paid never changes. So like that value, we can't, we can't argue with that, but the actual on-field value, I'm not sure that we have that price. I totally agree. And I think some of it also reflects that there just aren't enough good ones. Yeah. Truly great ones. Because the difference between a really good linebacker, Fred Warner should make so much money. Yes. Is my belief. But there's other examples around the NFL where I think the difference between a great back and then that next level, financially, that's reflected.

1:05:59I think with the styles from the value, the danger, too, is just that it seems to take guys a second at this position. So are you capturing the value? You know, I don't even know if him, like, can he be good? The question to me isn't, can he be great? He's going to be great. It's, can he be great immediately? that I think is an open question because the NFL play the position is so hard to play now Ohio State we talked about this very complicated defense he wore the green dot I do think that also matters here right but it's just different the difference yeah that's the point it's college offenses they don't have enough time or um expertise to uh attack you your weaknesses in as many different ways and for a linebacker um to the point that i made earlier they are schemed for because there aren't so many good ones so like it might it might take some time for him to be comfortable it's not just like see ball get ball how do you feel about the increasingly i'm seeing him mocked to the new york giants at five uh that is uh you know dean uh weaver is the defensive coordinator so denard is wilson denard okay weaver's in baltimore right oh he went back right yeah yeah yeah right sorry uh denard who you know uh defense that's the only reason why i nailed that one because uh he was safety for me yeah he always says yeah say hi to dominey uh sorry uh the other thing though that it's funny because like similar to the linebacker like with with So similar in the running back conversation where I'm like, you can't take a running back because that's an offensive line.

1:07:37It's hard for me to condone taking a linebacker if you don't have pass rushers. But the Giants might be the only team in the NFL that actually has pass rushers. And they have. We'll see what goes down with Dexter Lawrence. I personally think he's probably not getting traded. So they signed Tremaine Edmonds in the offseason. But the other linebacker position, I think, you know, is something that could be addressed. How do you feel about that as a destination for Sonny Styles? Because I like it. Love it. It's a no-brainer to me. If Sonny Stiles is still around right then, run to the podium and get Sonny Stiles.

1:08:07It would be, to me, it's a can't. Well, I wouldn't say can't miss, but it's the obvious right choice right there. Positional value be damn. I also think with the Edmonds signing, you know, whatever you think about him at this point in his career, it's fine. Talk about a wingspan, all wingspan, linebacker, buddy. It does lessen the pressure on Stiles to be full-time Mike immediately um you know i he he is you know he's like we talked about where he playing the position that front seven and the giants too horrible against the run last year horrible that was the clearing weakness this addresses that i think in a pretty big way because as we talked about his run defense is really special so yeah i would like it too i yeah there's no other linebackers to consider um not at that at that high yeah he's he's perfect i don't and compared to the other players at that spot i think he'd be uh yeah i have a pretty steep drop off after that i mentioned cj allen out of georgia i wanted to like his tape more um because he's so clearly a smart player yep n 'kobi dean is what i kept seeing maybe it's the georgia thing i was like look at n 'kobi out there doing the kobe i kept writing good vision but it just takes too long for him to get to the back he just does the athleticism yeah at first i was wondering if it was just like a hesitation and then i was like nah he just doesn't have quite the range that i love i i think he can play in the league i think yeah you know i just yeah i mean we're talking about the fifth pick like yeah he's not yeah he's he could be a good player in the league but uh jacob rodriguez out of texas tech is a film player who ended up watching a decent amount because i watched so much bailey um he did you see i don't think i said to you his head shot he has a something i personally adore in linebackers which is a perfect one-to-one head to neck ratio he looks like if you just took pedro pascal and like stretched him um he's a thumper yeah if you want a thumper this is your dude.

1:10:17He gets downhill in a, you know, he is a maniac again, doesn't have the sideline to sideline range of like a styles. And then Anthony Hill jr. Out of Texas is another interesting sort of undersized player. I think he's still developing and his strength and whatnot, but there are some good athletic reps on tape that make him interesting to me. But yeah, I don't, I don't have any of these other guys with first round. Yeah. I don't need, I mean, the, the one like positive note I have for, I mean, I don't mean one positive note, but the thing I have for Rodriguez was like kind of splash play. Like he did a lot of fumble.

1:10:55He caused a lot of fumbles. That sort of stuff is, is great. Like that to me feels like something that'll translate a ball puncher. So that's, that's right. That's cool. He's a good run defender. So it's really hard to talk about any of these guys after we talk about Sunday. You're killing me. Yeah. I say he's, it is amazing that we were talking about him going fifth over wrong. We're like, cool. But the Giants are an interesting team. I mean, because there's other directions that could go in receiver, offensive line. It feels a little rich there, but they're not, they could find a receiver later in the draft.

1:11:32They can't find another Sonny Stiles. Um, so, and I do think he has a transformational, he could have that impact on that defense. So I like it. Giants fans. All right. Oh my God. I saw, uh, love as a potential alternative there. And I, I mean, again, really in today's world, planning ahead isn't always top of mind, but not having life insurance can leave families facing difficult financial uncertainty during already emotional times. In many cases, loved ones are left managing expenses, debts, or long-term obligations without a clear plan in place. Life insurance is one of those ways to help provide financial security and support when it's needed most.

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1:14:00And listening to this show, you get 20 % off your first purchase when using the code SPORTS at checkout. That's an additional 20 % off better plants and better growing at FastGrowingTrees.com. Using the code SPORTS at checkout. FastGrowingTrees.com. Code SPORTS. Now's the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. It's that simple. Use the code SPORTS to save the day. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. Okay, let's talk about the corners. when we do our mock draft man we're george yeah we're uh not george and love where jeremiah love is gonna go it's gonna be really interesting i'm gonna have to might have to save him from his slide because you and kevin definitely not gonna pick i did i have been talked into the commanders a few times okay so we'll see that's not a slide so all right so you made fun of me because i said jermon mccoy was you're like who's your guy and i was like jermon mccoy and you're like that's ridiculous he's a top half of the first round um i think i feel like a my guy has to be someone that you're higher on than everybody else like for it to be a my guy like this is my guy jamard mccoy once he ran that four three he became everybody's guy i know i i had you watch chris johnson though is he a good my guy oh yeah chris johnson great my guy i like we'll talk about him later uh manser delane versus jermon mccoy to me is the classic floor versus ceiling debate the safe mr nice someone you can take home to meet your parents that's mansoor delane jermon mccoy is the wild card you don't know they might not like him he might show up uh wearing a white t-shirt and basketball shorts however i i think i'm learning more about you than i ever knew or wanted to know before because your guy you you like the fawns huh Who are you taking?

1:15:51Who are you taking? The nice, safe guy? Straight lace, man. Button it up. I don't got to worry about you. My daughter's going to be home on time. Thank you, Mansoor. You're a much more flexible. Plays in every coverage. Understand sophisticated defenses. Physical aggressive against the run. Got the speed to run with guys. I can't go wrong with him. He's a good player. So I feel like my terrible analogy diminishes that I actually really came to like him the more I watched. um so first of all manster delay allowed a qbr of 3.6 as a primary coverage defender which is pretty pretty good uh zero touchdowns two picks uh 26 completion percentage uh 66 contested target rate I loved his press man reps man uh those were my favorite although I do think he can play both man and zone but those were the ones where I I loved him in man coverage generally I loved his physicality of the line of scrimmage.

1:16:50I love the way he stuck with guys without getting grabby. I love the way he fought through picks and rubs when they were playing man. I loved his football intelligence. Well, we'll talk about zone. But I loved everything about him. The only thing I didn't love was and they showed up a little bit in the man coverage. He's not that fast. Yeah. yeah yeah fast if you get speed it's like yeah right i i i'm with you and again this was a probably about me trying to learn from my priors and like i normally am enamored with a really fast combine guys and uh his speed was not a issue that i saw too often on tape and i i think also So this might be a little bit of recency bias, but I think one of my guys is Kamari Lassiter in the NFL, where it's like, yeah, and it might be a little bit about that defense too, but I'm wrapping my head around a 4 '5 guy can ball, and he's not a 4 '5 guy, but I'm wrapping my head around that, and it's like, look at the tape, and he goes up against high-level competition, and they're not leaving him.

1:18:08I think, was it the – there was one game, I forgot, one of those top-level receivers was giving him a little bit of trouble, but it happens. It's going to happen. I'm not worried about it. I like him a lot. The thing about the speed is he knows it, and you can see him like when he plays zone, he'll give a little – if he plays a fast guy, he'll give a bit of a cushion. Where it shows up is that, and then if he plays man and he gets beat, the recovery speed isn't quite there. So, you know, I think super fast guys in the NFL could give him some problems, but he's a very complete, great open field tackler, physical against the run, tries really hard.

1:18:52Yeah, I'm a huge fan of his. And the more I watched, the more I liked. I hear the boredom in your voice. Get to McCoy. That's who you want to talk about. Get to your man, McCoy. boy Tennessee uh I think they're about the same size exactly but look bigger to me yeah um there might be a length difference uh so didn't play 2025 ACL which is you know ACL from ACL these days yeah uh no it's it's obviously a very serious injury however it didn't be it didn't happen recently so he should be fine good to go he did run at his pro day a 438 um 2024 24, he had 36 contested targets, nine PBUs, four interceptions.

1:19:41In man coverage, he allowed a QBR of 11, which I wanted to size because I figured it would be good. I've mentioned this, but his game against Ryan Williams in 2024 is one of my favorite watches. Really, he didn't even win every rep, but it was a great iron sharpens iron. Like, let's see this. Let's go. battle uh I'm looking at my notes to things I I think the thing about his 2020-24 tape that jumped out to me the most I would say is oh god there's so much that I liked this I I the footwork and the speed and the length um yeah he is not he's not as I I think uh Delaine is more physical at the line of scrimmage.

1:20:30You mean like in press coverage, right? Yeah, sorry, in press coverage. But it don't matter. There's some great reps where he would even get beat in the line of scrimmage, but because of his speed and his length, he erases it super quickly and gets his hands on the football. He does not panic. He was so smooth. And then when he plays zone, the way he closes on it is just really impressive. to be the doesn't panic part um was a no a big note that i had is also like again to the things that are hard to measure there's a a cornerback's confidence that he has and desire to compete um and which is combined with like that you talk about in the the the um was it the game against Williams where it's like hey not winning all the reps but he doesn't back off he doesn't slow down he gets an incredible interception combined with the ball skills he gets you the ball back which is a big deal because it'll change how offenses play like if the if there's a option is incomplete or big play they'll take that if the option is incomplete big play or he might catch it because there's some guys who just aren't going to catch it and you're comfortable even if they're great cover guys to throw it up over there and so all that stuff I think makes him special the zone stuff yeah was good enough but like the man coverage was a part that's impressive and I think it's we're moving to a place in NFL where I think you have to be able to play man coverage and have somebody who can be comfortable and the flexibility it gives your defense if you have a corner that you're confident can go up against a top guy in the league and not win them all but not crush your defense and so yeah the uh he is an inch taller than delana just put up the actual exact and then the as i suspected he wingspan is about three inches longer and it it does show matters yeah um just like a fluidity to the way he moves that's really the reason i could go in the way because he's williams is so fast and so he you know he had drops this year but watching him stay step for step for him was really impressive to me um to do it to do it calmly also i think is is important because like as as a corner like it's what is really tough is someone gets away from you the speed that you have to expend to catch him up to catch up and then they change directions again like there's a a calmness that's hard that's impossible to fake that allows you to change directions that i think um comes from experience and confidence and ability that he has that a lot of other guys just don't the comp i gave espn.com because they're asking you know who's your guy and what's his guy uh was stefan gilmore um he's about similar size yeah uh yeah man coverage ability twitched up smooth ball skills um length uh Uh, yeah, just the injury is something that's, you know, NFL teams will have to evaluate on their end.

1:23:47If you, if you told me he was healthy, I would have him as my quarterback one. Um, so I have those guys in a tier of their own and I, I have a pretty decent tier break to the next group. Um, so I actually, I went ahead and ranked them. I haven't been ranking them really. I've been doing tiers, but I went Colton Hood, Chris Johnson, Avion Terrell, and then Brandon Cissé, but he's in kind of a different tier, I would actually say. Chris Johnson was a later watch for me. Yeah. Okay, well, first of all, do you have like ranking? How would you rank those players? yeah um i didn't really rank them necessarily i think i did a tear break also i like any of them in particular yeah i i liked avion terrell um it might just be because his brother is in nfl but what i saw from his tape was an understanding of the game that uh isn't common for someone at his level which might put a ceiling on his ability and again he's a feisty smaller guy which who can run which i i like um five foot 11 180 pounds yeah yeah 186 he probably drank a lot of water i'm familiar with that strategy good player um do you think he plays in the slot or outside um i think he plays outside but i mean he can play in a slot there's no reason why he can't He's small, but aggressive.

1:25:27So I like him. Great wonder at his size, by the way. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thought, Brad, as he said, I thought he was really good with his hands at the line. He was disruptive at the line with his hands. And there's technique stuff and discipline stuff that you hope can be fixed. He's another smaller guy who's super aggressive. But yeah, I thought that, yeah. and Colton Hood uh better in zone than man but yeah it's a that's that and then there was some other guys that I that I liked that probably would not probably won't make it into the first round but yeah uh you didn't mention Chris Johnson so you you I asked you to watch him at the end I was late to him because he's so he's at Stadio State he didn't play the greatest competition yep and that's that's to me just the only real question i have is how would he hold up because against the teams he did play he was awesome and i think he has like a really complete skill set six foot 195 pounds um great feet i thought he was really good in man coverage they play a lot so but he he's like i think i texted you this morning but his ability to stick with guys at all three levels i thought was really impressive he's a pest yeah you could tell he's just annoying to play against he's just got his hand and he he um makes plays on the football he had the you know the um the pick six where he beats the quarterback against cal he had one against nevada but he also just makes plays in the football he gets his arms in there constantly um he reminded me of those seattle corners with how aggressive he was i i want to go so bad i want to see yeah He would be a perfect Seahawk.

1:27:13But I think you and I had this conversation about how it feels like the softer players are gone. There's very few guys who won't stick their nose in there at corner and tackle. He was on the even aggressive end of the aggressive in these plays, which I really liked. The criticism that I would have of him was he has long arms. He's tall. He has great feet. he stays in front of guys and press but he doesn't use his hands which is like you gotta i was watching him and cc and i was like that cc keeps getting his hands on people his feet aren't as good but he keeps getting his hands on people and i just was like i wanted him to disrupt him a little bit i actually like that about hood i thought he was getting his hands on people um and he also has a great personality on the field i i was the hood i i another big physical corner You're right.

1:28:06These guys are all pretty physical. I don't think. Yeah. Even small guys. It is a theme. You're right. The cold hood. I mean, he plays like he is a maniac out there. He will attack a screen like a freight train. He will get his hands on you at the line of scrimmage. Not like, but, you know, I think he, I would say lacked some of the foot speed and fluidity of the guys that I had the other guys that I've mentioned um but back to Johnson really quickly yeah that is something I noticed I also thought he got chewed up a little bit underneath um by shiftier guys um and in zone there were moments where I thought like oh he's not quite sure where they're going with the football so I I actually think he's got really high upside um because I thought traits wise I liked really liked what I saw and I think some of the things we're talking about are things that can be taught especially not coming from the biggest program I would be very happy if Seattle took him quite frankly I really like to stay yeah no he's great I think you're right about those things the I went and watched his what I could find of his senior bowl practice tape because I had the same problem is you is like i the i only watched i tried to watch three of his games and i went and found like who were the best receivers um in the mountain west conference to try to but he ends up not matching up with those guys very much in the game so that was the one thing that i was looking for is like real competition there's only a few one-on-ones from the senior bowl on youtube that you can watch of him so that's the one thing that like is a bit of a hold up is things might change and particularly with the press technique when people at higher levels they'll watch the film and when you get to the nfl he's not going to be able to do that that feather technique you do that that's a mix-up i mean that's like a change-up and he does it like exclusively so those sorts of things and that there's really no fear of the guys that he was playing against running by him She's like, I want to see him in those situations.

1:30:16That's the only hesitation I have. Yeah, Delaney McCoy were just so battle-tested. Yeah. Against receivers. And yeah, there's some prediction there. All right, let's finish with the safeties. There's three that I think could potentially go in the first round. Caleb Downs being the most notable, who we'll talk about at the top. And then in however order you rank them, people have them different ranked. Dylan Thienemann out of Oregon and Emmanuel McNeil Warren out of Toledo. Let's start with doubts. And I'm just going to ask you a very simple question. Is he as special as it's been portrayed? It depends on when you ask me.

1:31:00So like, I think I, I watched him after. Yeah. I watched him after a lot of the hype, the original hype, and was quiet. I didn't want to talk to anybody because I was thinking, I don't really think he's as good as everyone says. And I think that there's not a lot of splash there. And I would say my argument for him is that there's no stat for the explosive plays that he eliminates. So like he makes tackles, he's in the right position. There are like so many times where I'm like, this would have fooled someone else. It would have been a big play. This person would have missed this tackle. It would have been a big play.

1:31:47And I'm like, all right, that's a huge value. But the way that people are talking about him and the comps that people are making, he's so smart that the thing that I want from him is for him to take his intelligence to the next level where it's like the anticipation as a result of the intelligence the i'm in this so you see that so i know you're going to do this so i'm actually not going to do what i what i'm supposed to do the problem with caleb downs for me and it's not a big problem is that he's too perfect which sounds stupid but like you don't get the interceptions you don't get the big plays you don't get the sacks you don't because you're too perfect you're always the right place the right time at some point i want you to take it to that yeah take it to that master's level where it's like, all right, now I'm a risk it right here.

1:32:32This is a calculated risk. I have so many thoughts on this. Um, similar journey with him where going into the combine and me being not a college football person during the regular season and then arriving at it late when they were talking about him throwing around some of the names and the safeties who have drafted in the top of the first round. I was underwhelmed at first because I was like, this is not he just isn't making the sort of plays you would associate with a player who's being talked about this way. I think some of that is because he is, like you said, in position. I think some of it is also just size and athleticism.

1:33:11Unfortunately, he is a smaller guy and he is not a freaky athlete. He's a good athlete, but he's not insane like holy smokes. And that, to me, is what prevents me from putting him in that conversation. however i really like your point about how his production his stats don't show up he has so much like hidden impact not just on himself as a player but on other players i don't know if i've watched tell me what you think about this because i ohio state because we're scouting the entire defense i watch i don't think i've watched a prospect in the nfl who i feel like was communicating more on the field and telling people what to do it is wild not even pre-snap mid play you can see him making sure everybody is in the right position like on the field like it is really remarkable dominique to watch on tape the level of conducting that this young man did in the back of that defense yeah i i think it cuts both ways where it's like we get to the intangibles too soon it scares me but also the intangibles slow and tiny yeah it's not like kyle hamilton yeah and but it's also like these intangibles are so exceptional so like it's this is where no i'd be ecstatic to have him on my team however at how high some people are talking about going it's like i i would like a few more big plays or is that just me and that's why i kind of came around to make this other argument to be like, all right, it's a big play.

1:34:57Tackle for a two-yard gain that otherwise would have been a 20-yard gain. It's a big play, but it just shows up as a tackle on the stat sheet. Right. I think his big plays are going to come, are going to be similar to like what Bryant branches in the NFL when it comes. I think as a blitzer, situationally, I think you're going to get TFL. I think he's going to blow up screens. And then I think he will be in position in the moment to make interceptions, but it won't be like anything insane. And Brian Branch is a really freaking good NFL player. But, you know, that's just not how it was immediately presented to me.

1:35:37Like, if you told me Brian Branch was in this draft, you would definitely feel comfortable taking him in the first half of the first round, right? Like, you just would. Yeah. But, I mean, the thing is, I just Googled it to make sure. Brian Branch was the 45th pick. Yes. Well, he dropped too far. That was great. Right. But, I mean, it feels like, would you take Caleb Downs in the second round? Of course. Would you take him in the end of the first round? Of course. The part where it gets a little hairy is when people are talking about, like, to the Giants, something like that. I'm like, I don't know.

1:36:16I don't know. Cincinnati, a 10. Oh, that's where. No, no, would you do that? I'm asking. Yeah. Yeah, those guys are gone. I get it. I mean, I also like the corners that are out there. But I guess for Cincinnati, it makes a lot of sense because where their defense is, a guy like that on the defense that is smart and gets everybody right position would really help. I'd certainly consider it. But I think to your point, Jamar McCoy, if he's still around, like would you, if you were Cincinnati, you had McCoy or Downs, what do you think?

1:36:58It's a tough one. Yeah. I actually like the corners. That's part of it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like Dex Hill. I think DJ Turner's decent. They don't need it as much. I also think Cincinnati, where they are as a defense, downs could be like a really important player for them on the back end. He does feel like a key. That could unlock other players. So yeah, let's do it. We'll put them in Cincinnati at 10.

1:37:29Thineman and McNeil Warren. Sorry, Kansas City at 9. Put a safety there. That's fun. I would take the corners. They lost all their they lost all their corners that's right and i know since the chiefs fans hate that because yeah we'll get one later i'm like yeah right okay you won't get mansoor delane later i would take delane if i was kansas city i think that's yeah he's yeah he's flexible they do a bunch of different things he's comfortable they did some of those like um disguises to drop into zone um at lsu they definitely run like a system that i think would make a corner comfortable um doing the freaky stuff that the Chiefs do.

1:38:13Do you have a strong Theoneman versus McNeil-Warren preference? Because I think both have their pluses and minuses. I think they're both interesting and good players, and I wouldn't hate either of them going in the first round. I don't think either should go in the first half of the first round, but in the second half when things get a little bit froggy, I think there are certain teams that make sense for both. but do you think either i think what it comes down to for them is do you think that mcneil warren is has growth still less than i'm not physical growth because he doesn't need that he's height but like yeah uh he's not big yeah he's he's tall um and where where are you going to play him are you looking at him as a nickel type player or as a true safety because i think probably Genesis Smith is probably the best true safety in my view and like a deep safety in the draft Thinaman I didn't see the 4-3 speed on the field that I was shocked at the combine and then I was I didn't want to say I was shocked because of his appearance shall we say but it does not look like that and I really like his tape I think there's a lot I like I think he's really he's a good run defender he um he's good at man coverage too like he he you don't think he can play free safety in the nfl could he yeah yeah i think he could yeah yeah okay i i mean i guess i i thought that genesis smith was like a better deep middle safety i think that i i might start splitting these people into different positions because there are a number of these safeties that I like a lot just like like Jalen Kilgore and Keontae Scott I like them as big nickels along with McNeil Warren I think I really like him as like a big nickel box safety type and Theoman I think him and Genesis Smith I'd like a more deep but like I like Theoman as a strong safety you put him in a box but in man coverage against a slot for a team that wants like I think he could play man coverage against a slot, which most safeties cannot.

1:40:26So I don't know. It's hard for me to rank these guys because I don't really think they play the same position. But I think the players that I enjoyed watching the most were the guys who aren't in the top. It's like Scott Kilgore and Smith. But I think I like McNeil Warren more than Thiedemann because I could see some growth there and his impact being bigger than i think them and can be but again this is a scheme dependent type of i think it's very scheme dependent and i think like you said there's more projection with with mcneil warren um mcneil warren i ended up watching a lot of him not a frustrating player for me because there were flashes of like really he he has splash plays he He has great length and size.

1:41:16He makes plays on the football, both against the run and the pass. He closes, but then he takes bad angles. He misses tackles. And I will say that I felt the same way a little bit about Nicky Manwari's college tape at South Carolina. The difference, though, was Emanwari was just so, like, rocked up. Like, he was just such an undeniable athlete, whereas McNeil Warren isn't, I don't think, to that level. Yeah, like, the Louisville game was rough. I watched that one. But then he makes – I also look at my notes. There's some really cool plays. He has a TFL where he ducks under the block. It looks like he's limboing.

1:41:54He's just – I think he's going to take a little bit of refining in the league, so that's a bit of an upside bet to me. Better in zone than man at this point in his career. So you would definitely want him in a zone-based defense where you can play him a little bit closer to Linus Ramech. Length is valuable, yeah. uh the other thing i think um uh so some of the issue with him was too at oregon he was asked to do so much and i feel like suffered a little bit for it um because he was they really leaned on him to be like so such a versatile player i do feel like the run defense sets a floor he's really really good at fitting the run he's he flies in um into those lanes and i think he has man coverage ability you saw you don't like him in man as much as i do it sounds like the man yeah oh no no i said he does have man oh okay i thought i heard in your voice like oh no no no no no no i was saying i think you can um play him in either is what i meant um i think he can play free safety i do i would love him more though in a you know the the current meta which is too high shell that rotates who's going to rotate you know i think he has that smart like versatility so i you know he is a more polished player to me mcnor meneal warren probably has a little bit of a higher ceiling but i have question marks about some of the things i saw on tape i i didn't i also liked a little bit the uh aj the lsu safety aj halsey um who i just ended up watching because I was watching Delane so much.

1:43:29A little bit chaotic, but makes a lot of plays. I noticed, you know, like he and some of that is playing with Delane is helpful in that regard. Gives up some plays too, but he was one who I thought he's consistently game after game. I would just notice more and more as having like flashy moments. So, yeah, I would consider him maybe third round. I don't know where he's being mocked. That's something that I would consider as well. All right, that's it. Those are all the players we are talking about. Woo! Do I have a new my guy? I don't know. I think that would be a good job. I think that would be a good job.

1:44:10I think that would be a good job. You guys should check out. What are you guys covering on the Dominic Foxford pod before our live show? We are doing a trade value, I believe, where Charlie has created a list of the guys that are untradeable. and I'm going to yell at him about it. It should be pretty fun. But I'm really excited about Pittsburgh and doing the show with you guys where I will outdraft you and Kevin Clark. I can't wait. It's not a competition. Come on, you of all people. Try this. It's not a competition. I know you. We're going to divide up all the thirds, the first 10, second 10, the final 12, and put them on our respective podcast.

1:44:52But like I said, it's going to be live on YouTube. youtube.com slash at many times go check it out go check out uh my next episode of viewer discretion with david dennis jr we're talking about the boys do you watch the boys i love that show we're also going to recap the first episode of euphoria which i just watched so i'm saying i i told you i gave up on that like a few episodes in the season one because like i had like a pre-teen daughter and i'm like this is disgusting i can't i can't do this yeah my son is a little bit too far away for me to start worrying about the euphoria so go check that out youtube.com slash at Mina Kimes you can follow the show also at instagram instagram.com slash Mina Kimes show thank you as always to everyone at Omaha Productions, Kirsten Sebecki Owen Saylor, Jack Foster, Tucker Tashin and I'll see you on Monday with the final war room mock draft with Todd McShay and then we're going to be in Pittsburgh bye

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