I Found Out My Parents Would Get My House If I Died (Unless I Did This!) - Wills & Trusts Expert - Sam Grice (Octopus Legacy)

0:00Sam, welcome, mate. Thank you for coming on. I struggle with this topic. Yeah. I think it's because I need to organize my thoughts and thinking in the way that it's structured. But I think up until this point, until very recently, I haven't had enough. I felt like I haven't had enough responsibilities to sort this out. But this moment for you happens to you because you needed to sort it out. take me back to that moment and that call that you had and what happened after that. Yeah, sure. So, I mean, yeah, it is a topic that most people avoid for lots of reasons. We see what happens when people don't put plans in place, including our family.

0:42But yeah, I mean, I was in financial services. I was 27. So I'd lost a couple of my grandparents, but no one, kind of my close, I guess, direct family. And then it was a Sunday morning. My sister was calling me on the phone. I was, uh, answered it and yeah, it's one of those calls you never really want to get. Um, and obviously a hard call for her to make as well. Um, but yeah, told me, um, yeah, mum, mum had been killed and, and my dad was also in hospital. So it was a very, very intense conversation to have. And then the next few weeks just, yeah, it's like you forget lots of it and some of it's just vivid.

1:16It's like a really hard, hard, um, period to deal with, but yeah and what happened after that moment where you had to start dealing with this situation what what was going on there yeah well i mean i was in it firstly just like there's a lot of logistical problems that comes with death the first part i always explain it is your logistics and then funeral like a it's like organizing a wedding in two weeks with while you're while you're grieving especially in mom's case i say all death is quite um is it is a bit of a shock or death i think even when you're expecting it. It can be a shockfall. But I mean, I was in a different city.

1:49I had to get flights, had to navigate that. I mean, the FCA, the regulator now is classing bereaved people as vulnerable. And you can see why. You're not thinking straight. I think we nearly booked flights on the wrong week. You're just not on a space to do that. Packing, you think it'd be an easy task. You know, what do I need for a funeral? But the whole first few weeks is very much like that because you haven't thought about what you're going to do. But equally, you're trying to plan for a funeral for someone that you love and they're not there anymore. And then the legal and the financial stuff starts quite quickly.

2:27So while you're still running, well, you're going to have to pay for a funeral. How much is a funeral? Where are we going to get the money from? And we'll go into this later, but how the bank accounts are owned, are they joint or are they separate? If they're separate, that's quite hard. And so you go through this process of not knowing anything and having to suddenly be an expert at it all at the time you're grieving, which is one of the most heightened emotions you can go through. So yeah, it's a chaotic period to say the least. And it doesn't stop for 12 to 18 months of just admin and stuff no one wants to be doing.

2:56I'm still in it now. My nan passed two years ago on the October the temperature. We're coming up to that now. And we're still going. It's not. It's grueling. And we talk about this later, but and the people that execute an estate will work with it. I think people start it with good intentions and just don't realize how much work's involved in dealing with the death of someone. The admin attached to that event is a lot more than people think. They say it takes up to 500 hours for a layperson to deal from start to finish on a death, which sounds like a lot, but we've got a team of professionals and it takes them about 50 hours.

3:33And that's all they do every day. so it's not actually crazy to see why it takes 50 hours, 500 hours, sorry. It's still a lot though, 50 hours. 50 hours is a lot, yeah, yeah. And they're professionals. Yeah. So all they do every day is get up, go to work and complete, go through the probate and the administration of wills and it takes them that long. Because it's a lot of communication. You've got to go to agencies, you've got to, they're all different, they require different documents. So it's, and there's no standardized way of doing this. um so yeah it does it takes ages so when this happened there was no funeral plan was there and you know i heard you talk about this and that can be quite stressful in its own regard because you're trying to think about what the person yeah would want to see right yeah so there was no there was no funeral she'd never really had a proper discussion with us um and and there was a will but the will was out of date which i talk about a lot which is actually harder than a no will sometimes because they don't match what the person wanted.

4:32You know, if you write your 20 something years ago, once you dust it off, you go, oh, this is not what we thought. It was a legally binding document. So there's ways of changing it, but we can go into that later. But yeah, but the funeral and you're trying to create an event. And this is where a lot of our industry, the will writing or solicitor industry, they don't talk about things like this because it's not the law. But not having a funeral plan, even if it's just what you want, means that every decision you don't make, your family's going to have to make. So there might be 25 decisions you need for a funeral or something.

5:04I don't know what it is. But if you haven't written that down and taken your family through it, they're going to have to do that. And it sounds really like from the outside, it sounds a bit silly, but say like a funeral song, that wouldn't take too long to pick. It does because you're really worried about it. You're like, what song emulates their life? And they're not there to make it. So it sounds like a little thing, but I remember our family, with hours to discuss what songs we wanted at a funeral. And the flip side of that is it's quite nice being around and being with them. But it would have also been nice to have something from mum where we could have said, well, she wanted these songs.

5:38We've picked a few others and together that's the plan. But because you have nothing, yeah, we were just winging it. Like what would she like? What coffin would she like? Do we do a full funeral? Do we not? Yeah, lots of decisions. Cremation, not cremation. It's actually endless, isn't it? I've been through the whole process. I arranged my whole nan's funeral and he's nuts. The level of detail that goes into it is insane. Well, and people have differing opinions. So we knew mum wanted to be cremated, but her mum, who was still alive, that's obviously the sad part of mum died quite young, so her mother's still alive, assumed she wanted to be buried because that's what she wants.

6:16And so we had to explain to Grant she wants to be cremated because it's not normal that generation buries their children. Of course. So she has a plot and her husband's going to – my granddad's there, so she was going to go next to him and then she was thinking, oh, she should get buried. But, yeah, so not that it didn't cause any problems, but I would say that it could have done in some families, especially with different – they might have particularly strong views on something. And if it's not written down and discussed, then, yeah, that causes – and you start to get this family friction, which is – and we see a lot of that through the process, which I'm sure we'll talk about today.

6:49But ultimately, this does end up in families fighting, which is not nice. Unfortunately, that's like where we're at. It's because there's like sisters, brothers in different countries, different things, different way of thinking, different responsibilities, different needs. And trying to deal with the whole process is nuts. And I'm power of attorney. And I'm sure we're going to get into that because it's a big thing I want to talk to you about, what that actually means. And so I'm sort of middlemanning this whole process. And it's just wild. And what often happens is I think life's full of lots of hard decisions.

7:23And who gets your estate is quite a big outcome for people. People assume what's going to happen. So people assume kids are going to get the money split evenly between them. Maybe the person doesn't decide to do that. And we'll talk about wills and also what if you don't have a will. But what can often happen, for example, is a really normal decision would be that a parent would decide to give the inheritance out on unequal levels. And that might be because one child is particularly well financially and the other is struggling a little. And as a loving parent, they've decided, in my opinion, I'm going to give them more.

8:00But they don't document that. So without the communication then, so the death happens. and that child who's assuming they're going to get 50 % of an estate or 30 % of an estate suddenly only gets 5 % or no inheritance without proper communication can actually cause conflict. Even if they just had an adult conversation about it while everyone was alive, they go, oh yeah, that makes perfect sense. I don't need anything. Don't worry about it. It's like you're in my head and this is happening to me now. It's incredibly common. It's mad. Is it common? We'd say about 50 % of families have some sort of conflict, whether it's a proper fallout.

8:33and we've seen, I mean, without going into details, we've had to send police to houses to change door locks because people, children were coming in and taking items. So it can get, and it happens more often than you think. So we think about 50 % of our, not contested, that's a legal process we can talk about as well, but just conflict. We think it's around 50 % of states have some sort of, this wasn't what I thought, or I want that painting. I want that painting. And we, you always said you're at the middle of the moment as our business by default, We are the impartial legal professional in that.

9:06And we see it all the time, every day. That's sad. It is sad. I sort of felt like at the moment I'm like, oh, my God, this is never going to end. But then also I'm kind of like, well, I need to be responsible at the same time and sort of try and mediate different people. And it's not easy. But it's over half of the UK. Yeah. They don't have a will. No. And so, like, this is a problem. Yes. Because that's not going to go away. That's going to be more conflict, more issues. Well, to make it worse, as I said, because I actually think out-of-date wills are sometimes more damaging. So you've got half without them.

9:41And then a huge percentage of those who do have them are out-of-date. I said they've done them in 10, 15, 20 years. Correct. I reckon if you, I mean, I don't know this, but if you were to assume how many people in the country have an up-to-date valid will, it'd be like 10, 15%. And in your eyes, is it an up-to-date valid will? What does it mean? It matches your wishes. Yeah. In the current state. Correct. So, for example, it's very common for adults, parents when they're younger, unmarried, and we'll go into the unmarried, married thing because it's a big, big deal with your estate, might decide to allocate some of their estate to minor children when they're young to support them in case something was to happen to them.

10:21But now their minor children are 60 and they've got their own children and they've got their own estates. and they might decide, I want to give that to my grandchildren. I want to give that to charity. And what people get into a really bad habit of doing is saying that without updating their will. So they'll say, I'm going to give 20 % to my uncle or someone. And they have that conversation with them, but they don't make a legally valid will after it. Then so when the death occurs, that person assumes, oh, well, I was told by Aunty Dorothy that I was going to get 20 % of the estate and they're not.

10:54And so, yeah, so out-of-date wills can cause a lot more conflicts. And some of the wills we redraft are 20, 30 years old. That's where I'm at. Yeah. It's literally right where I'm at. It's because conversations I've had with different people and she passed before she updated it. Yeah. It's very, very common. Same thing with like wedding rings, specific paintings in home that are special. So, you know, wedding ring is a thing that I think my mum, luckily me and my sisters had quite a strong relationship. but I think mum had told both daughters they could have the wedding ring and then me the engagement ring or something.

11:30She'd said this and then never wrote it down. So when the death occurred, we actually decided something. I ended up getting the wedding ring. But anyway, so these conversations happen and I think it's because people, that is their wishes. It's what they want. They just don't go around to that step of making it a legally valid document, which it has to be. And so they just have these conversations, but they never write it down. So let's talk about the scenario, which is probably the worst one, which is no will and this happens. And then you're in this situation and let's say there's kids, there's grandparents, there's multiple moving parts.

12:06Legally, what is the actual state's definition of what happens to the estate? Is it spouse or children? I don't know. And so I'd love to understand that. Yeah. So it's a good question. So I actually, I actually actually use this as a, as a, as a discussion point at times, but everyone does have a will in the country. It's just the will that's been drafted by the government. And so that's the set of laws. It's the laws of intestacy. And they, they somewhat follow what a lot of people would want, but there are nuances, especially if you're not married. But generally what happens is, well, no, what legally happens is 322 ,000.

12:43it's a nice round number for the government to use but transfers to your married partner. So if you're married it would go to your wife. Where it differs, because most people assume if I die everything goes to my wife or my husband or my legal married partner. So that's not true. So what happens is that 322 goes to them then the rest of your estate is split 50-50 50 % to your wife and 50 % to your dependents or your children. So in that case your children would inherit some money. Now, that might match what a lot of people want, but where it gets into nuances is if you owe an inheritance tax, there's certain tax differences.

13:21And so what you might end up getting is a taxable estate when it actually shouldn't have been because that's not what the person wanted. But yeah, so that's the process. And if you are not married, so what's being more common in the country, especially around second relationships, is that they're not legally married. So they're in a long-term partnership. That has nothing to do with the government's estate rules. So in that case, your assets would go to, say, children, or if you don't have any children. So if you're unmarried in a relationship for 20 years, it sometimes goes up, goes up to your parents.

13:55So it's not exactly what you want. The laws of ancestry online, you can go look at them because there are some nuances. And then could it go sideways to a brother if that's not? It's the next known, and there's a set of how it all works, who's alive and who's not. but it's in your lineage. So if you're not married, it doesn't count. That's so interesting. Which is a big surprise for people. Also, we'll get into power of between. I didn't know about a 3-2-2. Yeah. Because that's really interesting. Yeah. Because technically you'd think, oh, 50-50 is a fair split within, because if they are your kids, like, oh, but then you've got kids outside of marriage.

14:32Yep. Second, third marriages. What happens in those guys? Like, it then starts getting wildly complicated. Well, if you're not married as well, so stepchildren won't be stepchildren unless you've adopted them. So, yeah, it gets more complex if you're not married. But even if you are married, so this is where we talked about before, because someone doesn't have a will, if you think about a married couple being married for 50 years, got children all in their 50s or something, and they die without a will, let's say the husband dies, the wife might assume she's getting the whole estate. yeah she she won't be um and she might then be sharing the house so her we'll go into house ownership and stuff later but with someone else and that's not what she probably is assuming going to happen because that person might want to sell the house this is the so this is where i went down the rabbit hole and yeah i hands up i know i did guys i'm sorry but i asked what would happen to me because i'm in this situation yeah um and my partner would get nothing yes yeah um I've been with her nearly a decade.

15:37We own a home together. And it's basically she'd be left like with absolutely nothing, which wouldn't be my wishes. No. And homeownership, how you own a home matters as well. We're joint. Yes, you've got joint tenancy and you've got tenants in common. Joint tenancy, if you're married, would transfer over to your wife or husband. And tenants in common, no. So that's the situation people get stuck into. So unmarried partners in a house that's in attendance in common, what might happen is you would, let's say you were to die, still have living parents. Your share could go to your parents with your partner.

16:16That's what he said. And that's what scared the life out of me. Especially, I'm not going into your personal life, what we can do, but if your parents don't like your partner, which is common, there's a massive conflict you've just created. They like my partner, but we don't get on. Yeah, well, yeah. Well, my mum, I do, but my dad that I haven't spoken to in multiple years. so he would own i mean he would own the half of your house yeah which is what the ai told me and i my like literally had to have the fear of god yeah instantly i've got to sort this out um and that must not be alone like especially in today's day and age marriage is becoming far less common than it was but longer term partnerships and civil partnerships are becoming are on the rise um especially home ownership in in that regard and so that is something you need to consider because like technically i would sort of look at this like i would like my home uh to go over and then i would like some other assets to go to my sister and things like that yeah and that and that's kind of it yeah so it's like and i i just found that quite um like it gave me a real kick up the ass when i was like okay now i really need to think about this um and if there's no will at all then the law will decide he gets everything and it might not be how you want it and we just walk through what happens there but how can we shift the balance in that and how simple is this process to just get this thing rocking and rolling and in place and somewhere where it's comfortable for you yeah we'll we and we i think we might do one today we'll talk through the questions today with for a will wills are not actually that complex to get in place there's a few intricacies you need to name.

17:54But yeah, well, how you own a home can be changed quite easily with a, you know, that can be done as well. So even just changing the way it's owned can change what happens to it. Unfortunately, if you're not married, there's only so much you can do. So when we talk about inheritance tax later, but there's certain thresholds for married spouses. If you're not married, you can change your will to make assets go to that person, but they might pay inheritance tax. So again, if you're not married, there are advantages of being married. I think hopefully the government is, there's some new laws coming out around the fact of relationships.

18:30And I think it's, I mean, I'm from New Zealand. So those laws are quite established in New Zealand. I was actually surprised that they haven't updated those laws because it does seem a bit odd. You can have someone living together 30 years and in the law, they don't see them as married, which is very bizarre. But so hopefully the laws will update. But in the meantime, if you're not married, you can still update your will but yeah there's still tax implications of not being married so Martin Lewis talks about power of attorney arguably being more important than a will yeah why and what's the nuances and differences between them yeah I think he says it's more important to you I would arguably say it probably is more important because it's more important to you because your will is not for you so what you're trying to do is sort out the chaos that's going to follow after you die But ultimately, you could say, well, it's up to my family to sort out.

19:22I wouldn't suggest that. So it doesn't impact you personally. But a power of attorney, a lasting power of attorney documents affect you while you're alive. And so what they are is the two documents. You've got your health and your finances. And what you're doing is you're appointing an attorney or attorneys. And if you're interested, we can talk about the advantages of having multiple attorneys versus single attorneys. But ultimately what you're doing is giving one person or multiple people power to make decisions on your behalf if you've lost capacity. And why that's important for you is, again, some wishes you might have might not match what happens in society or with the government.

20:08And so what it does is allow someone that you trust to step in and make those decisions. So all sorts of things. But for example, you're unmarried, you might lose capacity. Let's hope not, but let's say you do. And let's say you've got your share of the property and your partner wants to put you in a nice care home. Yeah. That might not be what happens. And so there's only so many decisions people can make. So what they would do is give someone permission to make financial decisions on your behalf. Yeah. So might say, well, actually, this is what he wanted. Or equally, it's what he didn't want.

20:43He didn't want to go into the stuff. And so it just gives someone the ability to make decisions on your path. Two documents, both are very important. And finance one is, yeah, the ability to access your accounts and make financial decisions. There's limits to what they can do when you've lost capacity, but ultimately it's normally in your best interests. And then health would be health decisions as well. And the doc, it's quite lengthy. The documents do go into detail about stuff, but certain treatments, non-treatments, non-resuscitation, that type of stuff. you might not want to live you know without capacity long term and if that's one thing you want something you can talk to your attorney about as well I found the process was you know people could talk you through it it sounds complicated and it is when you look at the documents but actually when someone runs you through it and the decision that you're making it's kind of it makes sense and I co-signed so it helps because there was always somebody else like sort of helping and explaining with you, which was really interesting.

21:44But the way you see a will is like not a legal document. You sort of see it as like a wishes of that individual, right? Yeah. And then power of attorney can be affected while that person's still alive, iniquity post-death as well. Yeah. So it's kind of a bit more of a flexible thing over here. Will is like, this is what I want. Well, the attorney doesn't transfer to death, but if you're the executor of the will, that's when your powers would come in place. But the, yeah, so you're, it's affecting you while you're alive. So it's important to have because it could even be just, you know, you fall down some stairs and, you know, these things happen.

22:24And it's just nice to know that someone around you you trust is going to make those decisions. Can I have your back? Not, especially with your parents, you know. So if you've got somewhat of a complex relationship with your family, you know, you might not want your parents coming and making decisions. and they might be able to and they might go to court and they might say, well, actually, he's our son and we think this is the best outcome, even if it's not what you wanted. And so the documents just make it legally binding. And as you said, the language is a bit confusing, but once you get through it, it's very important.

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24:13I, I, you, you kind of said, and this really struck with me. You wish that your mom had created like a video and just like, and just said it all in five minutes on it. And it would have been a really good thing to have. um and you feel like that is something that uh gets lost in the processes when you're just say dealing with a normal solicitor on this it's less personal it feels very legal and binding and all very straight but whereas where you have like a video uh you can see what they they want to see right and and feel it too yeah i think it's i think the industry a lot of the legal profession has lost the kind of human side of it because, and it is, I mean, it's an important process.

24:59It is, they are legal documents. It needs to be done correctly. Um, you know, for example, if the language is vague, it can be challenged. And again, you don't want this, but, but I think, yeah, I mean, what, what is a will? A will is my opinion is the, it's the last messages to your family. Um, and yes, this is the house, this is how it's owned. And this is where I wanted to go is one part of it. But, um, what's your advice? And like, you know, I'm, my mom's not going to be there for, for, if I get married or if I, um, you know, I had a son, so she wasn't there for the birth of my son. So, um, she would have loved my son.

25:28Um, but, but, um, you know, I've forgotten, I think from her to him and it would have in hindsight, and I've got stuff down for my dad cause he's alive. And so I, if I, if you're not sitting around thinking about death every day, but I think, um, if they had gone through our services when they had written their wills, um, I would have that stuff. And so I think it's important to, yeah, you can't, I can't change what had happened, but now I know that my clients that are coming through our business have these things. And so when they do die, their families have them. So yeah, I think the legal part is important.

26:00The financial part is important, but also your legacy and what do you mean and where's your advice. And I'm lucky because I come on a lot of these podcasts and things, but so if anything was ever to happen, and you, you're on them all the time. So if anything was ever to happen to you, you've got that record of it, of who you are and what you think, your laughter, your jokes, your mannerisms. A lot of people don't have that. So I don't have any footage of mum more than 10 seconds, and my memory is not the best, and it fades. I mean, I just said to you before, which seems crazy, but mum died 10 years ago this year.

26:32It feels like it was yesterday, but it wasn't. Yeah, I mean, you forget them. Not them, but the memories become softer. It's just, when my dad explains it, it's kind of like keep photocopying a picture, and then eventually, unfortunately, it just loses its clarity and I don't have anything. And we've now got the ability in our pockets to film and record and we take a lot of photos, but people have stopped taking a lot of videos. I don't know why, but anyway. Because it used to be the thing, Camcord, didn't it? Yeah, well, I mean, I've got a lot of footage from when I was young of me that my mum and dad filmed, but she hated cameras, so she always made an effort of getting off either behind it or out of it.

27:13You could see her scatter away in some videos, But yeah, so very little of her. I hear, I've got her voice and her laughter on lots of them because she's behind the camera. But yeah, it's just, and even having footage, but actually sitting with someone and talking about, so we have these legacy videos where we sit with someone for about an hour, just like this really, and talk about their life and their memories. And I did one with my dad recently when he was up, you know, we talked about his, he was in London in the 80s, which was a crazy experience. and digging into mum and what was she like then?

27:46And oh, I didn't even, they were hippies in the 80s, probably everyone was hippie in the 80s. But just hearing that from him firsthand, you know, those memories go and mum's died, dad is still alive, but also dad could lose capacity and that happens, especially as they get older and those memories don't become as crisp. So talk to me about the legacy box because it's brilliant. Yeah. It's so cool. Yeah. I'd love to know all about it. Yeah, so we came from someone in our team, Eliza, and she, her grandfather had died and he'd created this folder with all sorts of stuff in it for when he goes, basically.

28:21That was what it was called, I think, for when I go folder. It's like a leaky tap and stuff. Yeah, leaky tap. And he wanted a comedy sketch and he had actually written the comedy sketch at the funeral and all sorts of stuff. And so we kind of took that and then we did a lot of consumer research about, well, what do people miss? So what do people miss and what do they care about? But as you can probably tell, a lot of it, the financial stuff's way down the list. It's like their voice, their smell, their advice. You know, what advice would my mum give me when I was going to get married? What did she say to me?

28:52Like, I don't know. And so the box, the top part of the box is all your legal stuff. So space for your will, copies of your power of attorney, anything you think is important. We guide you what we think is important. You can put that in there so that if you were to die, at least someone who is around you knows where to go find that stuff. And it's in one place. And it has to be, the will has to be physical document. It can't be a digital scan. So a lot of people don't know that either. So it's got to be a physical document. And so keep it somewhere under the bed or somewhere in the shelf. And then the bottom part of that is the legacy part, which you pull out and it's got a dictaphone.

29:28You can record your voice. We actually give you cue cards on like what questions you, we've asked thousands to customers and what we think they think is interesting. You know, what was your first memory as a child and things like that. And so, and we encourage people to use the dictaphone, record it. And then we've got, you know, your funeral songs, funeral planning, all that, and these little cards you can write on. So the idea being is you get your legal stuff sorted because that's ultimately really important. And we don't want people to procrastinate doing that to fill out all this advice stuff, which might take a bit of time.

30:03But so what we do is when we send the documents, when it's finished, that's when we send these boxes. And then we say, for the next five years, why don't you just slowly fill this up and put photos in it? Or if you see something, and we see people really engage with it. And then the legacy video is another service we offer, which is the people that really get into it. and we can come and film them in their homes or wherever they want. And some of the footage and what they want to talk about is amazing. It's mad. We had a 90-year-old, 95-year-old woman, I think, on the other day, and she was all dressed up and had a glass of champagne, and she was just talking about her stories from, you know, it's interesting stories.

30:37It's like they lived in a different time, and so why not ask them this stuff? They want to talk about it. And then obviously now she's got all that raw footage, if anything happens, which will eventually unfortunately happen, but her grandkids and children have all that footage. So, yeah, we're really trying to reshape it because, as you said, the world seems quite transactional and stale, probably not that inspiring to run out into. So what we're hoping to do is say that death doesn't have to be as morbid. We get morbid all the time, but it's not morbid. It's actually the opposite of morbid. If you've seen our content and what we deal with people, it's the most human stuff you'll see.

31:13It's not morbid. It's just emotional. And I like the phrase that griefs the tax on love. and that's all it is. It's just, it's emotional because it's a tax and it's because you love the person. So it's, and we avoid stuff we struggle with and that means people don't write their wills and that causes constant. And as we've said, so because you find it emotional and you don't write your will because it's hard to think of a world you're not in it, you're causing conflict for your family, which would be the last thing you wanted. Like the last thing my mum would have wanted is any conflict. I'm sure the last person people, that 50 % of people that deal with us, the last thing they would want is these families to fight.

31:52But because they haven't done it. So we always say, get it done. Everyone should have a will. Everyone should have a will, in my opinion. So you guys are obviously working on this every single day. Like what, how long does it take? Yeah.

32:10A little break in the episode here. Have you guys been meaning to write or update your will, but just keep putting it off? You might have done everything right to protect your financial future while you're here. Your savings are building, your ISIS are ticking over, maybe you own a home and you've been contributing towards your pension. But what about after you're gone? And that is where a will comes in to make sure the people you love are protected when you are not here. Financially and emotionally too, saving them time and stress when they're going to need it most. Without a law, the laws of intestancy decide what happens.

32:40And that does work for some people, but for others, they want to say in something this important. And yet it is the one part of the money plan that we all put off, me included. Right now, leading estate planner Octopus Legacy, part of the Octopus group that you know and love, are offering you the chance to update or write your will for free until the 31st of October. Charities cover the cost of wills up to£150, which means simple wills are free and wills with trusts are discounted. You can choose whether to write or update your will online, on the phone or in person. Many people who use this service choose to leave a gift to charity as part of their will as a thank you, but you don't have to in order to claim this offer.

33:19To claim your free will today, head to will.octopuslegacy.com forward slash money gains, or you can follow the link in the show notes below. And if you are watching on video, you can also scan the QR on screen. Offer ends soon, so sign up now before appointments get booked up. And now back to the episode.

33:41it it i would say it depends because it depends on a lot of things around your estate but in general um you know 15 20 minutes um but even less than that and that's with thinking i mean we could probably do a will for you now proper top line stuff and go through most of the questions in five five minutes yeah i think so let's go for it all right let's do it let's do it yeah i mean the well okay we'll start at the top so um i won't ask well i will sort this out afterwards i'll get a bit more information from you and then we can we can actually draft a well up for you so i won't ask all your your personal information um as in your your your details but um i mean the first one is name date of birth everybody on there name date of birth address um uh social uh yeah yeah so we won't go into that much detail suddenly someone's in my halifax account doing and all sorts of stuff.

34:30But the first thing is your estate and then your relationship status is quite important. So, I mean, you said you're with a partner, so you're unmarried? Unmarried, yeah. Do you have children? No children. Okay. And then you, so maybe, so that's probably all we need to know for that. Then in regards to your assets, like you don't have to tell me too many of the details, but like what's your general estate? like a property, I'm sure. And then what else have you got? Property, businesses, and savings investments, personal. Yeah, pretty much. And then your assets, so your house, so it's co-owned.

35:13Co-owned, joint. Joint tenants or tenants in common? No, tenants in common. Tenants in common, yeah. So that's the decision. So that's probably what Claude was telling you. So because you're tenants in common and you're not married, yeah, that would be a problem on death. So your parents would probably get that in the intestacy rules. And then so I guess, well, the question then is, and we'll work back from how to do that, but so what do you want to happen? So if you were to die, if you were to leave this podcast, touch wood, get hit by a bus, it happens. That would be typical, wouldn't it? Here it is, guys.

35:49Here's the real life. I actually had a child recently, and so my will, I had a will, but it was out of date. and I thought it would be very ironic if I was to not update my will. So I was like, I've got to do this now because I can only imagine what the fallout would be if I didn't. So now my will is up to date. So what do you want to happen? So if you were to die, if you're hit by a car today, so you've got your house is joined now and we can go into that in a second, but all the other stuff like your assets, your investments, what do you want? How do you want that split? So do you want, so I'll give you some examples that can either all go to your partner, go to your partner, maybe some of your siblings.

36:22Like what do you personally want? like that what yeah that's the first hard question yeah i thought about this a lot because and i knew we were going to do this um so i thought it was fair for because obviously we co-own the house so i think your house should move to my park now yeah and then uh my assets as uh i'm very close to my sister and um i've got two other sisters as well um who i'm also very close with i would like like the assets portion almost 25 with across three sisters and then partner within assets as well yeah does that make sense to say that again so you want your three sisters to get so three sisters to get 25 each and my partner to get the final 25 yeah okay fine and like i feel like that's a fair distribution of it okay um because i feel like with the hard part thing is is i would thought about it you would just leave everything to my partner but then it's like actually those guys would need that leg up so i'm sort of seeing it like do they do they need it too as well and yeah that's quite helpful for them okay and we can get all the details of them as well because when when you're writing a will so we won't do that now again we won't share information but what what what you would need is their name and so when people are writing their will before they start writing their will it's important they'll need their name their addresses things like that they're identifying metrics so we know okay who who your sisters would be and where they are and we can track them down actually because sometimes like hey you've got some inheritance um and so so that's that's and that's actually fairly common what you've said so a lot of people want to do that um have you discussed that if that's does that mirror what your partner wants or she got different differing views because that's quite common as well so um if you're listening uh we need to have that chat yeah i think it's uh um pretty obvious we we discussed having the wheels in place i think definitely the house is on the table yeah i think we both slightly mentioned because she's got a big family her side i think she would see her assets a lot of largely move over to her family and i'm like we were both like yeah cool yeah um i think if we married and changed again i think that would need a further update and a re-establishment and definitely with kids yes um that would need rethinking but i think if it was something was happening to us as of today like that's what we would want and and another common question which we need to cover and I hope maybe she is watching, but do you, do you, do you intend to get married in the, in the, in the short term?

38:48So in the next, you know, six to 12 months? The, the wedding? Would you get married? No, no, not the wedding. No, fine. The only reason I say is because the, the marriage nullifies the will. So, so if you're going to get married, the reason I ask that is because if people are going to get married and they're listening to this, you can, um, you can update your will in a way and you can draft your will in a way of, as if it's still valid on marriage. Oh, cool. Yes. So, um, so it's, um, that's why I ask it. I'm not prying too much into personal life, but so if you're planning on getting married and if those wishes married, cause as an example, if you get married, everything goes to your wife.

39:29Right. Um, so, so, um, unless you stay otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you would also want to agree that. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the marriage would nullify that. So it takes that 25 for the sisters, say, for example. Well, it doesn't nullify. So remember that once you're married, the estate's split, right? So your assets are now 56 years. Oh, yes, the 322. Yeah, but the assets also split. Right. So she owns half of everything you own. And so, yeah, just how it all works would change. So the marriage changes your will. So when you get married, you should definitely redraft your will.

40:05Can I ask, and not that I'm considering this in any way, shape or form, but a prenup agreement within that frame, how does that work? Because businesses are then, say, married into someone who has a business and they want to protect their assets that they've built pre the relationship. Yeah, so that's kind of outside, I would say, our law because that's still a family law. But yeah, that's another legal process you can go through. And so people often do it at once. So they'll do their will and their prenups at the same time, especially before marriage. I'm not considering that because she's been there since day one of doing this business.

40:40So I think it would be pretty savage. But again, it depends what people's views are. And what we always say is have those conversations in advance. And it might be, you know, on marriage, do we want certain things to change? Maybe not. And so, but yeah, if you're going to write your will and you're planning on getting married, and it's quite an interesting fact as well for anyone listening that's been divorced. But so when you get divorced, same thing, right? So your will, if you get divorced, in the way the will law works is that your ex-wife or ex-husband is treated as if they were deceased.

41:19Right, right. Yeah. So a lot of people would probably like that. No ex-wife being deceased. And then that means when you've got substitute beneficiaries. So for example, if you said, I want everything to go to my wife. If my wife dies before me, I want everything to go to my children. Then that's what would happen. So they would treat as if your wife had died before you. That might not be what you want. So even a lot of people assume, oh, well, the divorce doesn't matter because now they're out of the will. True, but what happens as a substitute to that might not be what you want. And so it's important.

41:51So marriage or divorce, marriage, divorce, death, those three events, you should always re-look at your will. And if you've got a confusion, talk to a solicitor or someone about what happens now and is this will still valid. And if it's been drafted correctly, it hopefully should be fine regardless of what happens, but not always the case. So we've just kind of established the framework of what we'd want. Is there any other detail that goes into this? Like, do you then go into possessions and things like that? You can do. So if you can, we don't have to go into that today, but I would say when we send you over the document, you can write that in, but it'd be any specific assets you have, items that you want to go to specific people.

42:34So it might be your watch or your laptop or whatever. You can list it and say, I want that to go to this person and this person. and that's your positions and they transfer to those people as well. It just come into my head. I imagine this has happened before, but let's say, for example, take a laptop, isn't it? It's a prime example. You say, I want this to go to John, but the person in control of that laptop today doesn't want it to go to John and refuses. Has that happened before? I don't want to pass that position to that person and I'm keeping control of it. Is that your... Ultimately, the executors.

43:12Executors, yeah. I mean, depending on this, depends how it's been drafted and if it's been in letters of wishes or it's in the will. And there's lots of conditions on it. But theoretically, if it's owed to John, it's, yeah, it'd be theft keeping it. It's not yours. It's not your possession. Wow. So, yeah. Again, that can be the thing where, yeah, it gets complex when things are gifted. And gifting in life also can make things complicated. So it's better to document it and why and when, because it could be seen as a loan. Like, oh yeah, dad gave you that painting, but that was never yours. That was just, now he's died.

43:45We want like piano had a Van Gogh or something. He might be like, we're going to sell that. That wasn't yours. It was just, he let you put it up in the house. It's not a gift. So if you're going to do something like that, it's really important to document it because if it's a gift and there's obviously tax implications for certain stuff as well. But yeah, it's always best to document everything and write it down. And then, so, but yeah, I mean, your estate settlement's quite straightforward. I'd say you don't have children, but do you have any dependents? Anyone financially dependent on you? No, not anymore.

44:14Yeah. That can happen sometimes up and down so it's always a good thing to think about if you've got someone who's dependent on you and what you want to happen with that. But if you don't have a dependents, you've got a reasonably straightforward estate at the moment. Oh, I see. So, for example, I was paying some of my nun's bills and keeping her afloat. Yeah. and if I wanted that relationship to continue that needs to be honoured within that process yeah so in a case like that so if you've got a dependent either young or old or someone with a disability there's all sorts of reasons this happens yes of course yeah that's when you start getting into will trusts so you know a trust is effectively you know that's my next question yeah well it's effectively you set up a trust and a trust has a set of wishes in it so in that case it would be I want my estate to pay my grand's rent until she dies.

45:08And then that would be set up by your executor. And we'll get into executors in a minute. And once that trust is established, it would then pay your grand's rent. Oh, cool. Because this is what you see when John turns 18, he gets my X, Y, and Z. Is this happening in the trust? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a will trust. And so very, very common in children. So I was going to get into children and guardians, even though you don't have them just for listeners. But, yeah, so there's two things with children, two big questions you've got to make. First is who do you want to look after them? Yeah. I would say that that's a big conversation because often people disagree.

45:43So, oh, I'd love my sister. I don't want your sister to raise my kids. So that's – and what do you mean you don't like my sister? And then the true feelings come out when it's like my son's life depends on it. I always thought he was a little shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, you always said you liked my brother. What do you mean? So guardianship is one that should be discussed. Okay. And I like to think it's – so people think will's a final. So it's your last – well, it's called the last will and testament, right? And because they overthink about it, they delay it. But what I mean there is what I always say is the best situation for where you are right now in your life.

46:23So it might be, for example, you've got a young child and there's a sibling that both partners like, but they're quite young. So maybe they're 25 and haven't been married yet. So it's like in 10 years, they'd be a great guardian. But right now they're a little early in their life. But maybe the older sister with children would be the best place for that child now. And so that's where the debates start to happen and can actually delay the process. So what I always say is think about you walking outside and getting hit by a bus now, not because people delay it. So they'll say, oh, what if in five years, though, and she had a house or what if she'd been married and I didn't like the partner, you know, something like that.

46:58So I always just say what's best right now. So if you were to leave the house now, get hot at bus. Who's the best person to be the guardian? So that's one part of it. And it can take a while. So before you start, so you asked how long it can take to draft a will. If you know the answer is not very long, but if you don't, that could take weeks to decide. So you start dragging on and then people forget about it and go, oh, we should get back to our will. The second is what you mentioned, which is when they get your assets. So most people with parents probably don't trust their children too much with financial assets until a certain age.

47:30Some do, but I would say that 18 is quite young to inherit. So that's the law. So if you don't put a trust in and you just leave it to your child, they'll inherit at 18 with no conditions. And that might be what you want. Maybe it depends on the estate size, but I would probably recommend thinking about that, whether that's the right decision. One of my close friends came into quite a lot of money when we were 18. Yeah. And, well, it was a lot of money at the time. It was a lot of money. It was in hundreds of thousands of pounds. I mean, he did eventually end up sorting himself out after a stint in rehab.

48:04But 18, with all that money, he just went off the rails. Yeah. It's dangerous. For an 18-year-old, 20 grand is a lot of money. I mean, 20 grand is a lot of money for everyone, right? So, I mean, the average house in the country is worth like$330 ,000. So, most people have two kids. So you're talking 150 ,000 a state goes to your 18-year-old. So it's a lot of money. So that's where you get into all trusts. So this is where your conditions come into place. Can it go hyper-specific? You must do X and then all the way. Because you see it in the movies, don't you? Yeah. He has to get an A in physiology at college.

48:44Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, you can be that specific. I mean, ultimately, it's the trustee's decision. so you kind of outline what your intention is and what you want to happen so for example I would assume everyone would agree because you can go to court and challenge so I mean I think everyone would assume that if I've got a son if I left my estate to my son I've decided that I want him to get half when he's 25 and half when he's 35 that's how I've done it I might change it a bit later but But if something goes terribly wrong in his life at 19, of course I want him to have access to capital. Like if he's just desperate and he's sensible, and that's where the trustee comes in.

49:26So you can select the trustee like a guardian. So, for example, I could select my sister as the trustee. And I would say, look, not until he's 25, but if he needs it or there's an opportunity or he finds a dream home and he's really a sensible 24-year-old. He's not like going to go to Vegas and he's really sensible and he needs this or he needs some money. I'm an entrepreneur. Maybe he needs some startup capital and I would always have given him that. So you can be specific, but you can also say like the trustee you select has a little bit of leeway around on what happens and why. So your kid would never be, you know, not get health, you know, if there's a treatment he needs or something, of course, that person can get those assets.

50:02But that's why selecting a professional trustee can help because they're quite rational or someone you really trust, similar to your lasting power of attorney, someone you trust to make would be aligned with your own financial decisions. So like my sister, for example, I think I would trust her to be able to make a good decision for my son if he needed money early and equally know that she would challenge him if he wanted it to go to Vegas or go on a, but I really want to go on this cool trip. And it's like, it's not what your dad would have wanted. And so that's a trust. And it can be the same for you.

50:33If you're wanting to give, you said you wanted to give to your partner, you could put some conditions around that. Remarriaging, there's all sorts of stuff in there. So, yeah.

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51:55And now back to the episode.

52:00Oh, God, yeah. Honestly, it goes so many ways, doesn't it? Yeah. You have to really think about it. Yeah. That's why, I mean, we won't get into too many weeds because then we'll never finish your will. But yeah, it can get reasonably complicated. So a lot of parents want a gift to... I think if I went today and she didn't remarried, I would be really sad for her. Yeah, exactly. So I think I wouldn't put that step-predation in, but I imagine some people might find that actually, no, you can't have that if you remarry somebody else. Yeah, but sometimes parents don't like partners and then they're worried about, well, if their child dies and then their partner remarries someone they don't like or does the partner get stuff?

52:37So it can depend on what you want to do. And size as well. Correct. I mean, if you're talking a big estate, it gets more complex. If it's a house and a bit of cash, generally people are quite aligned to you for what it's worth. Like the house is just a house. And even though it's a substantial asset, it's yours or it's mine because you wouldn't want your partner to be kicked out of the home. And there's a thing you can do there if you're older. So if you've got a second relationship and you're a little, say, 70, in your 70s, what you can actually do is you can set up a will trust that things like the partner can live in the home until she dies.

53:17And then when that partner dies, the house is then inherited and sold. So there's all sorts of stuff you can do with that. When you start, for anyone listening online, when you start to get into those types of things, it's always best, in my opinion, speak to a professional rather than doing it yourself. because sometimes doing it yourself with Claude or Chachpt, you can have unknown consequences with tax and things like that. It's a better sort of professional, but yeah, you can get into the... There's no way I would have done that. And I was asking it, what happens if X? Because I just found that really interesting because I wasn't going to read those laws.

53:52So I was like... No, and there's tax consequences as well. And taxes can get quite complex. And so it's important to understand that. But from an aura of time, because you're a state, you don't have children and any dependents. So your gram was a good example. That could have been a dependent that you wanted to include some financial support for. The next question, which is kind of the main question left. Pretend to the main question? Main question left. Okay. As, yeah, who you want to be the executor. So this is actually a very important question. And the reason it's an important question is because being an executor is a lot of work.

54:29You've just spoken about it. I think you're doing it at the moment. It's a lot of work. It takes a lot of time.

54:38It involves lots of, I think you need to be financially literate because you're dealing with a lot of payments and taxes and you've got obligations as an executor to make sure that it's all correct. HMRC, it's your job to make sure there's no tax. And if you've made mistakes, it's not good. also very emotionally intelligent as you know because yeah you need it you need it because if you do you're selecting a a very fun so a lot of time people select a very financially sound person to be the executor that has very low emotional intelligence which can actually cause more conflict because they're just matter of fact and stuff and they're maybe not that good and so you it is quite hard to find someone that's both of those what I would say is is professionals are generally quite good at that I was just about to say, could you pick a professional?

55:26Yeah, so that's what we do. So we're the professional executor in about 80 % of the wills we draft. So we're doing this year probably about 80 ,000 wills. Yes, we'd probably be the executor on around 60 ,000 of those. Very, very common. Wow. And so what we suggest for what it's worth is we suggest us and someone in the family. So we can kind of, we do most of the grunt work and they're there with oversight of what's going on. So what we generally suggest is a co-executorship. You can select multiple. Oh, right. What I would say is a lot of people select their three kids or two kids. Don't do that.

55:56Yeah. If your children have always agreed throughout their whole life on every matter, which I think most parents know they don't, then maybe, but generally, have a discussion about it. So I think I would definitely, my view would be professional and then a sensible member of the family who's got their head squared on, basically. Yeah. Well, so for you, who would you want? So it would be... Probably my oldest sister. You could select your partner. No, I'd probably pick my older sister. Yeah, I was going to say that because she'll be dealing with a lot of stuff and she'll be very emotional. So a lot of people do select partner and I normally not advise, but it's just remember what they'll be going through.

56:38And it's kind of a weird one because every decision, even if it's like random, or they found another arsenal can be really emotional triggering. Well, I love my partner to bits, but she's emotional. Yep. and wears a heart on a sleeve will cry at EastEnders when they walk out of a pub. And all your belongings going through it. And so having a professional executor and like a sister or a cousin is normally what I suggest. So like someone you really trust in your family or a friend. But if you're going to select someone, make sure you talk to them because some people... And they get dumped on their doorstep.

57:15Yeah, which is an odd part of them because you don't have to run it past them. As an executor, you can step down. you don't have to do it. That's another thing I would say a lot of people don't know. So if you randomly get a call one day and say, by the way, Uncle Frank selected you as the executor. If you're really busy or you're stressed or whatever and you don't want to do it or you just don't want to do it, you can pronounce as an executor, which is, or you can go get a legal company to help you do it. But yeah, the executor is a very important question. It's something that, yeah, people often don't think much about and go, oh yeah, you can do it.

57:45But I would say have a good discussion and equally with you. So discuss that with your partner. Because she, for example, she might not, might hate one of your sisters. I'm not saying she does. No, no, they're like best friends. But I know my sister's like a machine. Yeah, yeah. And everybody has, you know, looked at her. Actually, she works for an agency up the road here. And she's just like one of those people, you know, it's just like nothing phases her. She's always got like head screwed on, knows what's going down and is very emotionally aware. Yeah, no, she sounds like a great one. So yeah, before you sign your will, you know, the discussion you mean to have is with your sister and then with your partner just a little though ultimately it's not your partner's decision because it's your will but just be like I've decided I want her to be the executor with a professional so you could select Octopus for example or another professional and then on your death we would step in the advantage of that professional as well is we can then just take your in this situation we would take your sister through everything that's about to happen what do you want to do we can do it so it's just helpful having that friendly advisor next to you that's going to guide you it makes perfect sense I think I'd feel much more comfortable in that regard.

58:49Like dumping it all on someone's lap is savage. Especially without warning. It happens quite a lot. Yeah. And so people are like, I didn't even know about that. And then sometimes people then leave some of the estate to the executor. It's like a gift of thank you for doing it, which also causes conflict with family sometimes. They're like, why have you got some money and like you're the executor? This seems odd. I don't know. I didn't know about this. So yeah, again, people are notoriously bad at not talking about their wills. So they write them in secrecy, not knowing that. and it might like intellectually make sense, but then there's this chaos around it.

59:21So I always say - Do you think that's kind of like an element of like, surprise, this is like in a way, like it kind of is like your last laugh in a way? Potentially. I mean, some people do some funny stuff in their worlds. Yeah. Like we've had a guy wanted to mix his, wanted his family to mix his ashes with cheese, molten cheese into like a cannonball and fire it out over some Scottish isle or something. So whether that's, to your point on enforceability, not always the case, but the executive would need to make a decision if that was possible. So you get a lot of people do that. I think their humour comes out in wills.

59:53Oh, interesting, yeah. But I think the surprise, I mean, without going into too many details, we see a lot of people with multiple partners that maybe other partners do not know about, second families. Oh, and they come out of the woodworks. Sometimes someone will, we've seen a state split between the mistress and the second family and the wife and the family and we, as the professional, have to have that conversation. And so we have to sit down with the wife and explain, actually, there is another beneficiary here that's not you. And that is probably. Dude, that is rough. Yeah. That is rough, man.

1:00:28Yeah. In that circumstance, a professional executive is probably a good idea. Oh, yeah. But, yeah, no. So we have to deal with that. How? How would you? I mean, yeah. Well, we've just got to be really efficient and intelligent. Just frankly, this is what's happened. we generally don't get much context either. I suppose it's like in a way there's no easy way to say this. No. So I do need to say it. There's a fourth beneficiary and it's not you. So yeah I luckily it's not my job my team deals with that though but yeah so sometimes sometimes but that's true. I only learnt the other day by the way that a throuple is a thing.

1:01:09Right I didn't know about that. Yeah oh you didn't know about this. Like a three couple. Three. There's three in a But that's not legal, is it? No. So one, yeah. But it's an actual thing. There you go. And I was like, okay, we're going somewhere now. And this is all new to me. So I imagine in that regard, it might be quite complicated. Well, if you're married to one or not, then yeah, it would get a bit complicated. Yeah. Until you can marry two of them. But yeah, even more complicated if you haven't told your other spouse about this family or beneficiaries. And that's where Ancestasy is interesting, obviously.

1:01:39because, yeah, if you've had a child, three children and a fourth child, on death that fourth child might inherit because you haven't got your will. And then so, yeah, the children can sometimes, oh, we didn't know about this child. And sometimes the parents may know about it, adopted a kid out. There's all sorts of injuries and wills, or not having wills in that case. But yeah, so I mean, so if we, people have some mental lives, don't they? One of the weird things, interesting things about what we deal with is, yeah, we see both pre-imposed death. We see, we've seen nearly everything. Yeah, I can imagine.

1:02:19I won't go into details of some of the stuff, but we've seen everything. And we see a lot of, you know, people trying to extort money and do, you know, the neighbor, the neighbor suddenly, the 100 % beneficiary and stuff. So you do get there. So as a professional firm, we keep an eye on that to make sure it's sound and no one's under any pressure or under influence. So unfortunately, that's kind of the situation that we're in. Right. And so there's two people in this situation that are saying that they both had conversations at different points and that there was a definite change of the world and there's not.

1:02:56And it's like legally binding documents saying what's happening. Yeah. And they're all like complete and utter loggerheads about it. Yeah. And sometimes that happens because the person didn't write the will. Maybe the will was drafted and stored somewhere else. The hard part is that like then you get the asset of the house, which has a mortgage on. And then like, what do we do? We sell the house. Then the house, then they're paying into a house they live in to keep that going while they sell that asset. That's just a nightmare. And that's what's happening at the moment. It's just dragging on and on and on.

1:03:27Yeah. I think they're, don't quote me on this, but I think there's a million empty probate properties in the country. Probate's the next question for you because it's this word that gets hit with you, you're grieving. What is it and why is it such a nightmare sometimes for people? Yeah, so what people think probate is and what probate is when they say probate, ultimately what you're getting is a grant of probate and that is a form that the executor was going to apply for and what that is doing is just confirming the will. and so we've had wills on back of serial packets come to us. So you don't need a lawyer, you can draft it on a piece of paper, sign it so it can be valid.

1:04:07So what you're doing is you're just validating that this is valid, that this can be held up in court and it's the most up-to-date one. So we do checks to make sure other solicitor firms don't have any that, oh, actually he wrote another one, more recently installed it with this person. So just because you find a will at home might not be the most up-to-date one. So what the application to the grant is kind of just confirming what the will is and that it's valid. Sometimes they're tampered with. So someone takes a page out, maybe that page where they've disinherited a child or done something like that.

1:04:35But yeah, so it's checks like that. It makes sure the staples haven't been tampered with. Or the 25 turned into a 30. Exactly. Yeah, that's why pages, if you're going to do it yourself, make sure the pages are numbered so people can't tinker. And yeah, make sure it's bound correctly. It hasn't been unbound. Because sometimes we get wills that are unbound. So you send it off to the registry and just say, like, this is what's happened. And they might say, no, we don't think this is a valid document. And so, like, copies and stuff like that. So what you're effectively doing is you're applying for a grant of probate to the government.

1:05:09And what that's doing is giving you permission to now act as part of the estate. So that's the, like, official process when someone says probate, generally how a lawyer would view it as a grant of probate. So once that grant is issued, similar to the power of attorney process, you now are allowed to make the decisions for that estate. But you have some obligations. But then, you know, for example, you can sell the property and you can start to liquidate the assets and the stocks and all the stuff you want to do as an executor. So that grant process has been issued. What people, when they say probate, what they mean is more that latter stuff.

1:05:44So the actual probate is getting the grant, but the administration of the estate, which is the next part, is what people always clump in to probate. That's the selling of everything. So selling the property, technically that's not probate. That's going through the full administration of settling everything, assets, liabilities, payment. So that's the executive duties. So when someone says, so we're going through probate, the grant part starts first and whether there's tax due. So what you're trying to work out is, is the estate taxable? And the inheritance tax laws are a little complex, but not that complex.

1:06:19But is the estate taxable? No. Fine. Yes. Okay. And there's different forms you have to fill out. But once you've worked all that out, the grant is issued, taxes paid, the executor will start their job. Yeah. And that's seven months in just to get there sometimes. So you've got... It was, yeah, nine months. Yeah, it can take. And then now we're pushing on two years, still no realisation. Well, as I said before, we see all sorts of stuff. Sometimes the executor dies during their job of being the executor. So then you have to start all sorts of forms to get that changed as well. So yeah, it's a gruelling process.

1:06:58But when people say probate, what they're generally meaning is the wider definition, as I said, which is basically selling all the assets and transferring that to beneficiaries. But part of that then means they're having a lot of those difficult conversations. So you're doing this charity will for free at the moment. Yes. And that's through charities, right? Yeah. So I'd say fully subsidized versus free only because the charities do pay for this. Yes. But why they do is what we find is common. So about 40 % of people that draft a will with Octopus leave a gift to a charity. A lot of people don't know you can gift a charity in a will and you can.

1:07:38and it's a really lovely thing to do because it supports them. A lot of people don't know this so I won't name them but some of the household names you know up to 50 % of their income comes from charitable giving. Huge help. Most charities wouldn't survive without gifts and wills. So it's a very, very important part of the industry and it's lovely because sometimes people get to a position where they've got their pension their house is paid off but that's about it. So they'd love to give money to charity, but they can't. And this is a way of doing it. So you can gift, you know, a percent, five percent.

1:08:15We see 100 % gifts, which children can not be so happy about. So it's important to tell your kids why you're giving, say, a Macmillan money and the reason for it. And we see these people very loyal to their charities. Especially if they've been through hard times and they've helped and stuff like that or they have an affinity to it. Oh, 100%. I mean, you, you, Macmillan's a good example, but you've got those Macmillan nurses, if you've had experience with them, the fantastic job they do. Yeah, the surviving spouse would buy, absolutely. Of course, I'd give some of my estate to that. And so that's why gifts and rules are really important.

1:08:52So whilst the end user, so your viewers won't pay for them, the charities do work with us on the payments to make it commercially viable. It needs to work for everyone, I think. but their benefit of that is the gifts and wills and so you don't have to leave the gift to a charity in your will but we encourage you to think about it and think about a cause you really like and we partner with over 300 charities so there's a lot on there to pick from. So that's why they're helping with the subsidies of the will because it makes sense and then people can't naturally leave to their charity of choice.

1:09:25Well yeah and as we've said from the start of today a lot of people don't know about wills and what you can or cannot do with wills. So a lot of people don't know you can actually gift to a charity. So the reason the charities work with us is we raise that awareness. So it's, yes, you can leave, and you can leave a pecuni gift so you can give some cash. But what we would always say is think about, you know, just a percentage of your estate that you're comfortable with. But you can also say, you know, 500 pounds to this charity or that charity. But yeah, just, you know, a percent or two can go a long way for charity.

1:09:56And there's some tax benefits of it as well. There is, yeah. And that's what's really cool. And because my sister went to look at a house the other day and she offered on it and they didn't end up getting it um because it was like a uh sealed bid one-time thing but um it was owned by a charity yep and uh like this is the first time i was like wow this is a real thing like the charity owns the property they're selling the property yeah they take the estate yeah um which is really interesting yeah yeah so so i mean as i said we've we've some of our charities have 100 % of the estate going to a charity um and we work charities on that because not all charities are you know experts and estates and and the transfer of wealth but yeah so often when you're bidding on a you'll know the probate houses when you see them on right move and stuff you can see the state of some of them because often what it is is they haven't been lived in for a very long time and so they're a bit dated um but yeah so a lot of those on death are transferred to charities or they've got those cool like 50s carpet yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah so those are sometimes owned by charities and the charities um it is is the same as any beneficiary.

1:10:59So yeah, they might have an executor. They might be the executor. It's quite common, actually. So they might be doing it themselves or use someone like us to help them. But yeah, it's a charity. And sometimes those ones are a little harder to bid on, actually, because they'll just set a price and they're less bothered about when it sells. So is it right that you can leave, if you leave 10 % to charity, your family pays less inheritance tax? So people tend to try and ease up to that to bring down the burden on their actual family. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so if you're, it's actually, inheritance tax is a tricky one because you've got to work out whether or not, you've got to work out what your date of death valuation is going to be.

1:11:35So it's kind of hard in your life. If you're 45, you're like, well, what am I going to be worth at 80? Equally, when you're 80, it might be nearly running out. So I would say that's why it's always important to update you, Will, because if you're 60, you might have an inheritance tax bill, decide to give 10 % to charity for the inheritance tax savings. But actually, when you're near 80, you're running out. And so you might change your mind. But yeah, there's gifts. It gets a bit nuanced with gift aid and stuff, so it's always best to have a look online. I think there's some calculators on our website.

1:12:03But yeah, what are the benefits for doing this? But yeah, there's inheritance tax benefits for gifting up to 10%. Well, it's just something to take in consideration, especially if there's a large inheritance tax bill because it can help balance the books slightly there. Yep, and you're supporting charities. And you're doing a good thing. Yep, yep. So it makes a lot of sense, right? but you should look into that every situation is nuanced we should 100 % clear that up because it's not always a case of an inheritance tax depending on the size and complexity of your estate it can be quite quite a nuanced conversation but mate I've loved this what have we not covered have we covered pretty much the main grounds yeah for your estate I mean we can on the back of that we'll get someone on my team to ask you some personal details but I mean for your situation that's pretty much your will sorted So it's not as daunting.

1:12:57And we discussed a lot of scenarios that weren't even relevant to you, just for your listeners. But yeah, I mean, for you, you're quite a simple estate. And so, you know, we've got... And would you say largely most people are? I would say no. I would say, well, complex in size often gets mixed up. So people assume a large estate is complex. Actually, a large estate can be, you know, a very wealthy person just says, I want everything to go to my wife. That's a really simple estate. I think when it gets complex is people gift a lot to different people and they have these conditions. And it's like, that's when it gets complex.

1:13:33But what I would say is unless it's a large estate, you know, the conditions on the£10 ,000 gift is probably going to be someone has to enforce that and manage it. And it's complex. So some people sometimes overcomplicate their estate. But generally, I think most people, the biggest thing is around guardians is where there's a lot of disagreement between couples. With young children. Yeah. And if I die, does everything go to my wife or does some go to my wife and some go to my husband and some go to my children? Those are the two decisions that people can have to debate as family. But apart from that, it's pretty straightforward.

1:14:13form and um but and imagine businesses are a little bit as well yeah if you've got a business it's best to talk to an expert because there's all sorts of different ways the business is owned and but but it's an asset so um uh yeah because it'd be quite interesting because i i have shareholders yeah i imagine there's a pass down there what happens to my share who gets that who has it sold well when i mean when it gets into business obviously your articles of association there'll be all sorts of stuff on there you'll um i won't go into that on this because probably need a whole other podcast. You know, like you'll have good and bad lever causes and all sorts of stuff.

1:14:46So it will depend actually. But it's an asset. So, you know, in this case, you were saying your wife would get 25. In this case, your sisters would get 20, 25 each. So, yeah, there will have to be, something will happen. So it's best to actually check that out. And what I would say is if you've got a business asset, I would strongly recommend talking to someone like us for a solicitor than doing it yourself because it is nuanced. And again, you're not doing it right means that on your death and that income might support someone. So it's important to think about it and probably not common is talk to investors about it, but about what they would want to happen because some businesses the founder or the CEO dies, the business might be over.

1:15:35Some businesses probably a bit more autonomous after death and so maybe the shares don't have to be sold and all sorts of stuff so yeah be loyal there yes i think so yes okay well that's going to be interesting that might delay but hey but but but the delay so it depends because there is clause is all in our contracts by the way and i did go through all of this when we did all of our contracts and based on i always think wall writing is about making sure that your stresses are alleviated as much as they can be. So right now in your situation, because you're not married, I think it's better to get something sorted for the house.

1:16:12Oh, yeah, yeah. What I'm saying is sometimes people build up all the things they need to cover off but end up never writing the will. Yeah. So it's better to – because you can update your will again in two months. Yeah, yeah. So once you've got the legal document, it's actually quite easy to update it. And so for Octopus Legal, actually, we offer updates to our clients for free. So get it done. And then at least, okay, you've got the house asset and the cash and stuff sorted. Okay, now the business stuff. Because then you're better than having, okay, the business wasn't sorted and the house wasn't sorted and the assets weren't sorted.

1:16:39So the whole estate's in this. So in my opinion would be, because it doesn't take very long, you know, you can do it free of charge, but we'll sort one out for you. At least you've got the house and the assets sorted. That can alleviate a bit of your stress. And then you can say, okay, let's worry about the business stuff now. Rather than waiting for the business stuff to be sorted. because again, you could get hit by a bus today and you would want your, if you want your share to go to your partner, not your parents, then it's better to get that sorted today. And you can literally sort that out.

1:17:06You know, we'll get something over to you. You can literally sign that with two witnesses today and it's sorted. Stress off your plate. Better than no will, in my opinion, but yeah. No, completely, completely agree. I mean, I've loved this. And obviously we're doing some work with you guys on this as well. And we're going to leave all the details for everybody to get that well sorted uh in the description below um jump on there your team are amazing um they're lovely and you know they're sending me the videos over that people have done and the work that you're doing on the legacy boxes is incredible and hats off to you guys because you know i think you you've turned what can be quite a tough experience into like quite a nice experience yeah um and giving people those memories back which is i i think so key you know And for me, I would have absolutely loved that for my granddad.

1:17:56And thankfully, there's footage of him on the telly, which is helpful. But even that, for me, it's not as personalized. So I think I'd have loved something like that. So yeah, I think it's awesome. But thank you, man. Well, thanks for having me. So yeah, head to the show notes below. But where else should people go if not? I mean, Octopus Legacy, go to our website. We've got a number and an email at the end. When you call us, you'll get one of our – our team is very lovely. it's a big part of our brand and what we're trying to build, but you'll get a person on the phone and we talk to people all day.

1:18:25So there's no charge for these chats. We basically just trying to find out what they need. If it isn't complex, is it not? And then guide them down that path. But so a lot of the questions you had around businesses and stuff, our team's trained to have those conversations on the first call. So it's no like surprise when you come to a consultation with us. And what we're trying to do is ask you those questions first. So we ask you quite a few questions on the phone. And then we say, well, actually, basically what you've said is quite simple. So you can do it online or, okay, with that second wife, you might probably want to speak to a solicitor.

1:18:56So our team's trained on that. And they're really lovely. They are, yeah, from first-time experience. But, dude, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, let's get some wheels written. Yes, exactly. Good. Cheers, man. Perfect. So I've been working on something super exciting for the last 12 months. And I am very, very proud to finally bring it to you. and it is called GainsApp. My whole thing with this was we've been speaking to many of you guys about the rising costs of living and how hard it is to actually manage your money. So I thought, why not actually solve this and build something for you guys that you can use every single day?

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1:20:13And now back to the episode.