James Cole: Building a £100m company without the b*llocks

0:00The Naked Founder has landed here in Chorney today in Lancashire. We're going to interview James Cole, who's the founder of Panache Cruises, a business he started in 2020. It's tracking 50 million turnover. It's got 100 staff, got an office in the US and the UK, ambitions to grow internationally in Australia and Canada as well. It's not all been plain sailing. He's a veteran of the cruising industry. James Cole, the founder of Panache Cruises.

0:23James Cole:And this episode of The Naked Founder is sponsored by Financial, the home of money for women. Thank you for inviting The Naked Founder podcast into your offices in Chorley, which we're looking forward to looking around later as well. We always start every episode of The Naked Founder podcast with the same question, which is this. What didn't they tell you about founding a business that you wish you'd known at the start? Well, it's really hard, Chris, isn't it? Founding a business, and I think you go into it a little bit blasé. Certainly when I founded my first business, I think I was 31, 32 years old and probably thought I knew everything.

0:59And it turned out working for a corporate business for 10 years, I knew virtually nothing about running my own business. So, yeah, it was a steep, steep learning curve. Yeah. So in terms of what you wish you had have known, would it have been, is there anything you could have known? Or do you just have to jump in feet first? Well, I'm certainly glad I didn't know how hard it was going to be. So I'm glad I didn't know that. What would I have known? I think, you know, for me, it's just about surrounding yourself with some great people and bringing in some specialist knowledge. We were pretty resilient back then.

1:39You know, we put in a lot of hard work. But did we have the right people around us? I'm not so sure we did. We're going to talk about that business shortly as well. I sometimes think that founding a business is a bit like becoming a parent. You know it's going to be tough. There's going to be highs and there's going to be lows. But if you knew everything before you became a parent slash founded a business, you probably wouldn't do it. And you've got three children of your own. We always start the podcast, the Naked Founder podcast. And it's called the Naked Founder podcast, not because we're naked, but because there's nothing hidden.

2:10And we always try and ask for questions that, you know, maybe dig a little bit deeper. So I'd like to take you back. Christmas Day, in your previous business, Cruise 118, you came downstairs, like anybody, probably excited, but in your case, you were a bit more nervous. And you drank half a bottle of whiskey as well. We're going to talk about you had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol to a point you stopped drinking in 2018. Just take me back to that moment when you went downstairs, and what was it that made you open up that bottle of Jack Daniels so early? Yeah, I don't know whether it was Jack Daniels.

2:43I think it was more single malt. to be honest, Chris. But no, I think, you know, look, starting any business is tough. And we started Cruise 118, as it was, the brand, back in 2008. So we sold our first cruise 10 weeks before Lehman Brothers went under. So we'd raised a million quid in investment from various sources, including putting our own redundancy checks in. So, you know, we were right up against it. Houses could be repossessed, all of that sort of stuff, if the business went under. And within six months, we were literally faced with the prospect of running out of money. So it was a very, very tough environment, as you can imagine.

3:30And I don't think it was the first Christmas. I think it was the second Christmas. Got two young kids. Got two young kids at the time. And January is one of the peak trading periods. It's the peak trading period in travel, the wave season, as we call it in the cruise industry. You know, everything happens around January. You know, if you can step up into that year, then hopefully the year is going to be pretty good for you. So, you know, it wasn't about stepping up into the year. It was about we had to step up into the year for the business to survive. And it was just I was just so anxious and I had so much pressure on me.

4:08and I just felt absolutely terrified about what was or what wasn't going to come. It seemed like the only option at the time, to be honest. Yeah, and a lot of founders talk about that when they're stressed and they sometimes do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. You took the decision on New Year's Eve in 2018 that you weren't going to drink any more alcohol in 2019. You haven't drunk any alcohol in the seven years since. I think you took a slightly different view as well because you said, if I do drink alcohol, it doesn't matter. I'm drinking less than I was before. So you didn't put that extra pressure on yourself.

4:46But you've also resolved this year to be a bit more selfish, which on the face of it is an odd thing to say. But you think founders should be more selfish and put themselves first because quite often you put yourself last. Tell us about your approach this year, James. Yeah, so drinking, yeah, I did take that approach. And I've done the same with sugar this year. since I gave up drinking I've got a real sweet tooth which I didn't used to have and you know I don't I've had a bit of an unhealthy relationship with sugar over the last seven years so I've decided this year and I think you know we're getting into into January now I'm a good three weeks in to not having any sugar this year but again I'm not being hard on myself I'm just saying I'm not going to eat sugar today if I do eat sugar today then let's try not to eat sugar tomorrow it's a similar sort of less pressure on me than than than i've i've had before chris and you are more relaxed founder now than you were when you founded your first business one 100 percent um and i think a lot of that is because of the issues that we've been through at the old business which were absolutely terrifying issues you know literally um having to find you know six figure amounts literally overnight you know thinking that we're going to go bust in the next couple of weeks multiple times over the first few years you know I've just you know cash flows one of my um weak spots um in in business and you know I'm just all over the cash at Panache Cruises and we've got a a plan that takes us through the next two or three years um from a from a cash point of view so i think as soon as i can get relaxed with our cash planning and our cash management everything else is going to take care of itself and we've built panache in a completely different way than than my first business i think founders who are ambitious are sort of naturally on edge a little bit you know that that's what makes them them you're man united fan it's what made wayne rooney a phenomenal player was being on the edge um take you back 2020 launch panache cruises yeah you've got an ambition to be the world's premier luxury cruise retailer by 2030 you want to be a hundred million pound turnover company this year you're probably tracking circa 50 million as well your previous business cruise 118 also topped 100 million turnover how do you create a hundred million pound turnover company james well it's interesting because you talk about being so you start with yourself yeah and you start with yourself and i think that's the thing that I did.

7:24So, you know, let's think about the entrepreneur's playbook. When you start a new business, what does it say? It says you have to work 25 hours a day. It says you have to work eight days a week. It says you can't go on holiday for the first three to five years. It's all bollocks. It's all complete bollocks. How should you start? You should start by drinking two or three litres of water a day. You should start by making sure you get eight hours of sleep per day, eating reasonably healthy and making sure you go to the gym three or four times a week. That's how you should start. Build your business on great foundations and the number one foundation for me is looking after yourself.

8:04Because then you can look after other people. You know who said exactly the same when I interviewed him last October? Stephen Bartlett. Exactly the same. Look after yourself. Okay it's a bit like when you're on the plane and they say in the event of a crash and the mask come down, make sure you put the mask on yourself first. You touched on it earlier, which was when you launched Cruise 118. So you launched it with your business partner, Mel Barrett. You mentioned that you secured a million quid against your homes. You didn't have a plan B. You were all in on plan A. You know, this was like a game of roulette.

8:33My brother worked at Lehman Brothers, so I saw the same footage that you would have seen when people came out carrying boxes had never been heard of before. As a new founder, and you mentioned how it manifested itself on Christmas Day. What was it like for you? Were you thinking day to day, week to week, month to month back then? Yeah, or even hour to hour. You know, what sales are coming in? It was all reactionary. It was all very last minute. It was all, you know, firefighting. It was all surviving. And then it was all, you know, working long hours, you know, trying to do it all ourselves. It was then drinking to cope with it.

9:18You know, it was all on its head. It was all completely the opposite way as we're doing it at Panache Cruises. And now, you know, again, it took me until I was 42 years old to learn that drinking, guys, it's a load of bollocks, you know, unless I'm not the type of person that can just go out for a Sunday roast and have one glass of wine a week. I just am a black and white person. I'm either in it or I'm not in it. And it was the same with drinking for me. I was either drinking each night, you know, or I wasn't drinking at all. That was it. I could do dry January. But apart from that, I was drinking most days.

9:58So, you know, there's a lot of people out there and I speak to a lot of people about drinking habits and some people can go weeks and, oh, yeah, I just had a glass of red wine with a Sunday roast. I can't do that. so I've had to train myself to look at things in a different way. You watched a TV programme with Adrian Charles in which he tracked his alcohol content. He didn't think he had a problem and you did the same thing and worked out actually you were probably drinking circa 80 units. That was too much. I'll ask you a question if I may. In terms of when you're founding a business, what people don't necessarily see is those first few months and years, you're barely taking out a salary and that puts pressure on your family life as well, which would have been true for you.

10:40yeah the first time around it was really really hard really really hard because there was no backstop for me I think it was slightly kinder to me this time because I'd sold my previous business so I did have some some cash behind me so I knew what the runway was and where it got a little bit more tense was we launched during Covid which again I think and I can explain exactly why it was the right time for us to launch in COVID because there was a great number of people available for us to employ and there were a lot of customers that were very upset with Cruise Lines and some of our competitors.

11:18So we were able to build a database quite quickly. So that was the right time for us to start in COVID. I'll ask you just a couple more questions about Cruise 118 because I think you learned the lessons from previous businesses that you then take on board to Panache Cruises, which you founded in 2020. So in terms of, I was looking at the announcement that was made. In 2018, it was announced that Cruise 118 co-founder James Cole had left to, quote, pursue other interests, which makes it sound like a football manager who's left the role. I mean, it was amicable, It was perfectly amicable. But when you left Cruise 118, was there any part of you that felt it could have ended differently?

12:06Was there any sadness about leaving? Or was it just happy, pardon the pun, to part the waves? That's a really interesting question, Chris. I think at the time it was absolutely the right thing for me to do. It was very sad to leave all of those people, you know, a team of 200 people, a lot of those people I'd been working with over several years. That was the saddest part, no longer being working with certain people within the business. But no, I don't regret leaving at that point. It was the right time for me. Perhaps it should have happened a little bit sooner. But no, it was the right decision.

12:48I don't have any regrets. I didn't miss working in the business. You know, I'd started and founded, co-founded the business. But no, I didn't have any regrets about leaving. So you grew Cruise 118 to£100 million plus turnover. That's the ambition for Panache Cruises. When you set out in 2020 with Panache Cruises, did you write down a list? This is what I'm going to do differently. Was it more of a mental thing where you just said, right, subconsciously, I'm going to do it differently. I'm going to do it my way. was there any difference second time around? A hundred percent, yeah. It was completely a different approach that we had at Panache Cruises versus the previous business because I was going into the previous business as an ex-employee of a corporate business where I'd worked for 10 years.

13:41So I didn't know what was needed to be an entrepreneur. whereas moving into Panache I had that experience of what skills you need. I had the poor bad experience of the business nearly going under several times and I was really fighting for cash especially in those early years but then I also had the positive experiences about when you build a team and you build a team with a great culture and a great working environment what can actually happened. So, you know, I could see quite clearly what was needed at Panache, which was building a business that focused on its colleagues, that focused on its customers and focused on its long-term relationships with cruise lines.

14:28And you know, Chris, that we have our Vision 2020, which is really straightforward, colleagues, customers, cruise lines, nothing is too much trouble and that was the foundation of the business right in the early days. Let's build those foundations in the right way. Let's surround ourselves with great people. Let's treat our customers really, really well and let's make sure we've got long-term partners in the cruise lines. But also let's have a massive mission, Mission 2030, where we're going to be in 10 years time. We want to be the world's biggest seller of luxury and ultra-luxury cruises. One of the interesting things is I went around and spoke to some staff and they understand what your mission statement is This isn't a mission statement that the founder and the CEO has got.

15:16This is one that's embodied by all your members of the team

15:23Welcome to Panache Cruises office Everyone's got the t-shirt everyone likes the t-shirt everyone's branded up Yeah, we've been in here since, well, this office used to be five offices. We've knocked through and you can see redesigned it, invested a lot of money to try and make an office that people want to come into rather than feel they have to come into. So, yeah, we've been here for just over two years now. And it's Strawberry Field Digital Herb in Chorley. Just take us through, tell us what we can see. So yeah, so we've got our finance team, we've got our product team, we've got our marketing team here, then we've got our service and admin team, and we've got our sales team, our connoisseurs.

16:10There's a few people in the office today, but we do... Talk about connoisseurs, because connoisseurs is really important. That's really at the heart of what Panache Cruises is all about. Yeah, so a connoisseur is our name for our salespeople. So they're there for our customers from that first moment of contact right the way through to returning from their cruise holiday. So it just means that if I'm a customer, I can pick up the phone and speak to somebody. Speak to the same person. You'll get your own connoisseur who'll be there right the way through the journey. So not just us taking the money from you, right the way through to you getting on board, even when you're on board and when you return from your cruise holiday.

16:47And there's a stat that you use that some of your customers are repeat customers, and between them they contribute quite a significant chunk to your bottom line. Yeah, so our top 40 customers have booked over 500 cruises with us and spent over£8 million in the UK with us.

17:06You launched, I mentioned Cruise 118, launched it, Lehman Brothers happened. You launched Panache Cruises 2020, COVID happened as well. as a founder do you see the best of James Cole when your back's against a wall um I do seem to thrive in those situations um and yeah I'm I probably do get the best out of me but I think um you know that's just from previous experiences Chris I think that the big difference between launching Cruiser 118 is we launched before Lehman Brothers with Panache Cruises. We deliberately launched in the middle of the pandemic. I think the issues that we got from the pandemic, which most people did, is we didn't realise how long the pandemic was going to go on for, and neither did most people in the world, and that caused us a few issues.

17:59But as with most businesses, we got through those. You did something which I think really good founders do, that you saw a crisis as an opportunity and you were very big on Facebook during COVID and you actually offered advice because people forget, you know, people were at home and they had time on their hands and not much to do. And you provided a service where you would answer questions, cruise questions, to try to reassure customers who weren't even your customers yet as well. But you built up a database, I think, of 12 ,000 potential customers. So when the blocks were lifted and you could start selling cruises, you had a database of 12 ,000 people to go at.

18:38now you did it because it was the right thing and the nice thing to do but the business benefited and as that gets back to the point where nothing is too much trouble that was a deliberate approach wasn't it well we always we always try and do the right things for our colleagues the right thing for our customers and the right thing for the cruise lines and if you focus on those three things for us the three c's as we call them and make sure you're doing the best that you possibly can for your colleagues, for your customers and for your cruise lines. Everything else, you know, we've got a plan, we've got a financial plan, everything else is going to take care of itself, isn't it?

19:14That's the theory anyway. Now, we are absolutely not a perfect business, but we do work very hard on those three things. You've never been afraid to try things that are a bit different. So you recognise the value of influencers, not Geordie Shore and Love Island influencers. You saw a couple called Richard and Helen Chalu, who sort of left their previous roles and actually decided to sail the ocean wave and create great content. And they've become almost like ambassadors for Panache Cruises. And I think they've generated, just them, as a couple, more than two million quid's worth of sales for Panache Cruises.

19:53Are you a founder who's not afraid to think outside the box? Well, I like to think that. I have some different thoughts, some alternative thoughts. But again, it's not rocket science what we're trying to do here, Chris. We're trying to attract people to our business using social and digital marketing. Take them offline, introduce them to their very own connoisseur, who's there right the way through that journey, and they come back to us. So we can just combine social and digital marketing with high-end offline service. We're not trying to split the atom, are we? So we're just trying to sell a few cruise holidays.

20:31But, you know, Rich and Helen, absolutely fantastic people. We want to work with fantastic people. They create such amazing content and they've been great partners of ours, as you rightly say, over the last five years. They've become personal friends of mine and Heather's. You know, it's great to spend time with them. They do their stuff. They're very, very impressive about what they do. Right, so here we are in Panache Cruises. I'm with Anna Perrett, Chief Commercial Officer. She's been in the business for three years, worked in the travel industry for over 15. Anna, why is Panache Cruises different to some other companies within this sector?

21:09James Cole:It's different. We don't mess around. We want to get stuff done. We've got huge growth plans and we just have a lot of fun whilst we're doing it as well. We're really innovative. We want to work with the teams as much as possible, engage with as many people as we and we just have fun with it as well. Would it be fair to say that James isn't your typical CEO founder? No, absolutely not. No, he is completely different to any other CEO that I've worked with previously.

21:37It was Theo Pothesis, former Dragon's Dance star, who said, KISS, keep it simple, stupid. You know, business is simple. If you keep it simple, it only goes wrong when you complicate it. You're passionate about the three Cs you mentioned earlier, your colleagues, customers and cruise lines. One thing that's interesting about you is all your customers have got your email address and your mobile number. You've got a lot of customers as well. You know, I don't know if they ring you or they email you regularly, but is that because you want to be seen as an approachable CEO founder, not somebody who sits in a glass office and isn't approachable?

22:14Again, we sell cruises at the end of the phone. The one thing that pisses me off with most businesses or a lot of businesses, I should say, that sell at the end of the phone is they hide behind it. And I didn't want to have that perception from anybody. And I don't want to have that perception with our colleagues or with our customers or indeed our cruise line partners. So, you know, from a customer point of view, a customer, in my view, can speak to anybody they would like in the organisation, whenever they like, including myself. So if a customer's got an issue, why can't they have my mobile phone number and just give me a call or send me a message or send me an email?

22:57Because I think it does two things, Chris. It opens up our business as being more personable and being more approachable. And that's great from a customer point of view. But I think it also sends a very positive message to colleagues as well that, that a customer will reach out to me if there's something not right. So sort the issue out and don't let it fester. I've known you for a long time, known you from the Cruise 118 days. You're a different personality now, I think, just an observation from me. The challenges that you face in Cruise 118 took its toll on you personally and your personal life.

23:38And I don't think I've seen you more content than you are now. Married to Heather, got a young daughter, Lily, as well. You've got two daughters from your previous marriage. Your son works in the business, Charlie as well. So you've made a concerted approach, I think, to make sure that it's not work and your family. You try and combine the two, don't you? So if the opportunity arises when you can go away on a work trip with your family, you do both because you didn't want your family life to suffer like it probably had before. Yeah, and, you know, look, there's this phrase, isn't it, work-life balance.

24:16I'm not a big fan of that, to be honest, Chris. I'm a fan of life balance and just trying to get your life as balanced as you possibly can. Are you trying hard to balance your life? I don't think you ever get it right. But basically what I try and do is if I'm in the UK, I'm focused on work during the week and then I focus on family at weekends. So, you know, my priority is work during the week. My priority is family at weekends. It doesn't mean to say I'm not spending time with my family during the week. You know, I went out for dinner last night. It was a Tuesday night. I went out with Charlie, Lily and Heather.

24:56We went out, so we had some quality family time together. And at weekends, it doesn't mean to say I'm not working, but I do the family time first and then work has to take a back step. But when I go abroad, and we're going abroad in a few weeks' time, going over to the other side of the Atlantic, I'm tagging on two work trips. So I'm doing three days in Phoenix and Orlando, and then I'm flying to Barbados to be with my family for two weeks. They'll then fly home, and then I'm flying to Miami and Orlando and tagging on three days at the end. So I'm just trying to balance my life as best I possibly can.

25:36am I perfect? Heather will tell you I'm not but will she tell you that I try my hardest? yes most of the time I absolutely do this is the Naked Founder podcast it's the podcast where nothing is hidden as well I think one of the things about you as well in terms of being quite personable you're quite invested in LinkedIn aren't you? so you write honest pieces on LinkedIn where you probably present the honest side to you as well how important is it as a founder to have a profile on social media that's authentic? Yeah, well, I just try and be my true self wherever I am, Chris, which is difficult sometimes.

26:17And obviously, you know, as a founder, you do have to keep certain things to yourself. You can't be completely open with everybody. But, you know, I do try and just this is who I am, whether I'm in the office or I'm at home. And, you know, I think I do a pretty good job of just being myself, which, you know, I do expect a lot of myself. I expect more of myself than anybody else. I am very, very critical of myself. But also I expect a lot of the people around me. But hopefully we create a great environment as well. Hopefully we treat people exceptionally well. You know, we've certainly picked up some awards about being a good place to work.

27:04And, you know, we reward, you know, exceptional work from that point of view. You and the listeners and the viewers will be hard pushed to believe this. You turned 50 last year. I know, I can't believe it. Well, you thought I was 60. Absolutely. The viewers will be surprised by the fact that you turned a significant birthday last year and it was only 50. but you were 50 that's a phrase absolutely absolutely but you realized that you wanted to do something with purpose you wanted to raise money for ruben's retreat i think at the last count you raised over 75 000 pounds but one of the platforms was you decided to go to mount kilimanjaro in africa and climb mount kilimanjaro with a team of 15 colleagues from panache cruises as well what's what does that do for your business and why did you do it for well we've raised it over 88 grand now for Rubens Retreat.