Ruth Percival: ‘I became a first-time founder in my 50s – and never looked back’

0:00Welcome everyone to the Naked Founder podcast, a business podcast where nothing is hidden. Thank you to our sponsors for Nashi El, the home of money for women, and our producer Dan Brown of Renowned. Our guest today is Ruth Percival, CEO of Contolo Group, the first time founder at the tender age of 51. She launched Contolo Group in 2024 and has made five acquisitions, employs more than 230 people, and has grown turnover to around£37 million. She plans to double the size of the business by the end of 2026 and has 160 potential acquisition targets in the pipeline. She also shares her birthday of May the 9th with yours truly, which is always a good sign.

0:40Welcome, Ruth Percival. Thank you very much, Chris McGuire. Thank you very much. You're the only person who uses my surname, Ruth. But you can because we share the same birthday. We do indeed. Ruth, we always start each episode of the Naked Founded Podcast with the same question. What didn't they tell you about founding a business that you wish you'd known? So what do I wish I'd known? I'm very ambitious for our business, for myself, for the team. But that ambition has really grown as my confidence has grown over the last couple of years. And I wish I'd had the confidence to raise a bigger pot of money with North Edge at the beginning.

1:19I don't... Did you ever say what the pot was? So we raised$12.5 million in 2024. And I wish we'd raised more because if I'd had the confidence then about the scale of the business that we could build, I think we'd be unstoppable. We did an interview recently with a founder and they said, always raise more than you need. Yeah, good advice. They were talking about imposter syndrome among female founders and they said, if you need 10, ask for 15. I mean, don't ask for five and settle for one. It's absolutely right. I was thinking about this. You know, you read in interviews about men will always say they can do something that they might never have done before in an interview.

2:04This is stereotyping. And a woman might say exactly what she has done, but wouldn't say what she was capable of. And I don't know whether this is the same sort of... I don't know if this is the same sort of thing. Now, that's the reason for the Naked Founder podcast as well, because this is a problem that other female founders talk about as well, actually. um yeah the other thing with that confidence though is is spending money so i wish i'd at the moment we've got a lot of um i've got some great business leaders around me but we've all been leaning in to do those technical skills like hr it finance that we're not really skilled to do because we're sort of you know we're a startup and we're all rolling our sleeves up and it would have been if I'd last year if I'd have recruited some of those more senior technical experts into the business I think it would have taken pressure off my leadership team and me in particular and I think would have got got things going a lot faster so it's again it's about confidence isn't it's the same isn't it fantastic isn't it interesting how like if I was interviewing and not to stereotype all men and not to stereotype all women but you know you've started a business two years ago you've grown it to 38 million turnover, 230, 250 staff, you've made five acquisitions, and you're talking about how you could have grown it quicker.

3:21If you've got somebody in a man who's grown a business to like 200 grand, got six staff, and was thinking about an acquisition, it would have been the big I am for some men. But that's really interesting. You've had a stellar career. It's interesting you talk about confidence as well because you've enjoyed a stellar career and very, very good reputation as well. So we're not going to talk about your career highlights. We're going to talk about a difficult moment on the Naked Founder podcast. You work for a company called Fisherwap between 20 and 2022. They got bought by Bridgepoint. And as sometimes happens when a new investor comes in, they do away with the old management team.

3:59And in that case, that meant doing away with Ruth Percival. I'm going to use your surname. Okay. Ruth Hannah Percival when we're talking about grim things like this. Okay. And suddenly you found yourself at whatever the tender age was, surplus to requirements. and having enjoyed so much success in your career, how did you find that? It was, well, obviously really bloody difficult. You were going to say something else, weren't you? I was. I managed to not say it. It was very difficult. It's a very humbling experience because you're working incredibly hard. And with private equity, you always know that that's a possibility.

4:34So whilst it's not a surprise, it's nevertheless a shock. And it does, it knocked my confidence terrifically. at the time I think we've talked about it before my father was really ill he was he was dying of cancer and it turned out to be perhaps a good thing in the end because it gave me some time at the chance to spend some time with him in the last few months which I just wouldn't have done if I'd have been at work I just I just wouldn't have made those choices but it was it was really difficult and then I was looking around thinking right what on earth am I going to do next as though I flirted with going back into advisory, but my heart just wasn't in it.

5:16I went for a few roles to join other teams in private equity portfolios. One of those was actually a North Edge investment. And I learned a couple of really important things through that. So firstly, I watched how North Edge treated that team. So North Edge clearly wanted this role. It was a kind of FD, CFO, COO type role. and they really wanted that role in that business. But the management team had been together for donkey's years. They were really tight and they needed an awful lot of persuasion. And Ray Stanton and Phil Frame, who were on that portfolio at North Edge, they were so careful and respectful about how they managed that through and really patient.

6:01And it made me think, gosh, if I was a management team, if I was a CEO, I'd want somebody treating me like that, which is one of the reasons I wanted North Edge as my my investor. But the second thing I realised was I didn't want to join somebody else's team. I didn't want to have to fit myself in to be the last piece of the jigsaw in someone else's already formed team. And it made me realise I wanted to do it for myself, which is which is what I've done. Didn't don't you think, though, that as you get older as well, you become less tolerant and less patient? of you've got a policy at Contolo Group, so no dickheads rule.

6:39We do, yes. Absolutely. We have it above all the doors. Absolutely. And you don't want to work with dickheads. And I think as you get older, you realise that actually things that are important to you that might not have been important to you at 25 are much more important to you at whatever age you are. So you decided that a return or going to a big four company wasn't for you. You spent your career working with founders. And I often think I think to myself as well that I launched Business Cloud in 2016 and I'm not sure I would have done it, you know, and maybe I should have done it earlier once I'd started to do it.

7:17And then myself and John Simcox bought it five years ago. And we realized then that it was like our calling as well. You spent your career working with founders. How long was it before you thought to yourself after starting Contolo Group? Actually, I found my calling. It's my favourite job so far. I've absolutely loved this role. I feel like I'm thriving in it. I'm a deeply curious person and I'm stretched all the time, but in a good way, it's forced me to stretch myself. And I like all of the different challenges that come with it. So I'm really, really enjoying this role. You mentioned you're loving the challenges.

7:59You love being the founder and the CEO of the business as well. But obviously there's stresses and there's pressures that go with that role, growing the business, recruitment, acquisition, et cetera, et cetera. How does that sit with you? I find I do get stressed. The thing that the way it impacts me is I don't sleep. So I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm turning things over in my mind. It helps. So my husband, Jonathan, a boy who you obviously know very well, He's done a similar thing. So he set up a business from scratch a couple of years ago, corporate finance practice at Alvarez and Marcel.

8:38Coming back to confidence, he's recruited 160 people. That takes terrific confidence. That's probably the difference, isn't it? But you've recruited 230 people. I have, but I've bought them with income. He's recruited them and then had to go and win the work. So that takes a level of bravery and confidence. doesn't it that's in a that's on a different scale but i think but back to how i cope with it i don't think i'd be doing this if i wasn't um if i wasn't married to him for a whole host of reasons so he he does understand you know he's he's guided me a lot he's advised me um and he understands he understands building the business in the same way i do well he's spoken he's worked with founders all his life i mean you mentioned earlier that your favorite ever job is contolo group presumably appearing on the naked founder podcast is your favorite podcast obviously it has to be my second favorite that's a private joke um right okay let's go back a little bit okay uh because i'll come back to contolo group um towards the end of the podcast i want to talk a bit about your history and your career okay because i'm often one wonder the sort of serendipity that and the fate that plays its part and how you got to where you were so you studied genetics at university and that looked like that might be your career until professor guindale who i would love to get on the podcast um pulled you to one side at the end of a lesson and dealt you some pretty harsh news he did he did he um he said well i'd just broken the electron microscope and he did tell me that this wasn't a career for me but um so i did genetics university and i got a desmond which you know a two-two a desmond tutu which you don't that's one for the kids that is everybody used to say that am i and your generation okay so you got a desmond i got doesn't you don't see those anymore i don't think they award them i've never seen a cv with a desmond on it i don't anyway that's an that's an aside so um i that was for two reasons one um i wasn't very good at it and two i didn't do any work so i came from a very strict family yeah um and i'm that completely stereotyped kid who comes from a strict family and then goes absolutely wild at university.

10:51So to give you an example, my 18th birthday party, I had a curfew of 10 o 'clock and everybody else went out clubbing afterwards. So I got into university and I didn't come home before 5am every single night for three years. So I didn't do much work. And then it turned out I wasn't very good at it either. You've got two daughters as well. Yeah. And so it's taught me a big lesson. I've not made the same mistake with them. I was that mother who at 15 was like, yeah, you can have a party in my house, which obviously was terrible. You mentioned your family. Your dad was an accountant, actually. And after your failed attempt at genetics, you then went into accounting.

11:30I did. How did you find that? Well, so I went back home with my tail between my legs from university. And my father said, you need a proper qualification. So you can do your charting. Can I say that was a really good fatherly impression? It was. You need a proper qualification. So you need to do chartered accountancy. And my father was senior partner of this practice in Manchester, and my grandfather had been the senior partner for him. That's pretty amazing. Well, it just felt inevitable, didn't it? And my brother came to work there as well. And so I qualified. So I did these exams, which were incredibly difficult.

12:02And I studied, if you don't know about accountancy, you go to these sort of private schools. It was called Accountancy Tuition Centre. And I was the dunce of the class. and the lecturers there just had the head in the hands because my father had been a really good client and they'd got all these kids coming through. They'd managed to pass exams and then they'd got this wayward daughter to try and they were determined that I would pass these exams. So they gave me loads of extra help. And I did pass. I will say my eldest daughter, she's doing her last final at university today and she's been doing the first year of a chartered accountancy exams in her spare time since January and seems to be passing the exam.

12:45So they must be much easier than they were when I did them, Chris. That's the only conclusion I can come to. Can I just say that as the first year that ever do GCSEs, and when I see record GCSE plus rates, I say every year, it's a lot harder when I did it as well. It's much harder. So we've established that your daughters obviously got help, whereas you were very, very clever and these exams were like, and we didn't have AI back in the day, did we? We didn't have AI. So you, by some miracle, you qualified as a chartered accountant. I did. And then, and then, so my father's practice was audit and tax.

13:20And I absolutely hated it. I was bored out of my mind. So I left to join a corporate finance practice. And he went absolutely ballistic. And it was made 10 times worse because my brother was working there as well. And he said, oh, my God, this is so awful. And the only reason I'm doing it is because you're here. So he left as well and went to become a maths teacher. And then I don't think my father forgave me. It wasn't a good time. It's a hard one when your parents think you're going to follow in the family business and you don't. You had your epiphany, as a lot of people have their epiphany, outside Smithfield Market.

13:54I did. I was going to count bananas. For a living? Well, yes, that's what auditors do. Well, I was counting bananas for a living. and I sat outside and had my head on the steering wheel just crying at the thought of another day counting bananas and decided I needed to do something different. The thing is I've only ever said to my kids do something you enjoy and try and find something that you really enjoy and you'll never work another day in your life which is the same advice my dad gave to me and it passed down from generation to generation. You do find yourself repeating sometimes what your parents say.

14:29Well, so my father said yes this is a really boring job but it's given as an excellent standard of living, so you suck it up. So that was a very different kind of attitude. And I don't feel the same way. So I have been extremely fortunate in that I've found jobs, which I have absolutely loved. I loved my corporate finance career, and I've loved this role as well. Well, I'm going to tell you my dad's story, OK, because actually, thinking about my dad, who's a lovely man, he would always say, you know, get yourself a trade. Yeah. The world will always need plumbers. The world will always need electricians.

15:06It is true. But he also said to me, never get a tattoo. And I said, why is that then, Dad? He said, because if the police arrest you, they'll know who you are. Exactly. And that's good advice. So I've got no tattoos. But I was once arrested. But the police didn't know who I was. Because you didn't have a tattoo. Because I didn't have a tattoo as well, actually. And that was a grievous miscarriage of justice. But it was all sorted in the end. I'm going to pass that one on to my children. Do that. Do that. Absolutely. Now, you decided to give corporate finance a go. You quickly excelled. Now, and it's hard to believe now, but that industry is still dominated by men.

15:44It's still dominated by men. Back in the day, when you entered corporate finance, it was even more dominated by men. And unfortunately, sexism was a problem. And as a young person coming into that industry, you experienced it firsthand. It wasn't nice. And how bad was it? It was pretty bad at times. I had some pretty awful experiences. But I reflect back on that time with very mixed feelings because by nature, as you know, I'm chatty and I'm really interested in people. I laugh very easily. So I'm quite a flirty personality. And it used to get me into a whole heap of trouble. And I, and I didn't really, I didn't, I genuinely didn't understand what, what was happening.

16:34And it took me to, I was at BDO actually, one of the senior partners there. Eventually I was talking to him, I was on the director or partner track, I can't remember at BDO. And, and I talked to him about it and he said, you need to dial it down. He said, you are permanently dialed up to 10 and you need to dial it down and this will stop. And I did. I did dial it down and it did work. Now, don't get me wrong. It doesn't. There are still some absolute predators out there who you can be dialed down to zero and they're still going to think you're fair game. So that that is what it is. But but that that did work.

17:12But I look at that now and think, God, I look at my beautiful daughters who are full of joy and effervescence and think, can I imagine in the peak of their careers telling them to dial it down and that being good advice? It's a really, it's, yeah, maybe the world's moved on and that's not how things are. Yeah, but it's also like if you say don't. It was good advice. Don't wear this particular outfit because, you know, and then you say. You're bringing it on yourself. Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah. And actually, why should you have to change what you wear? Why should you have to change your personality, et cetera, et cetera?

17:48It is a sorry indictment. It is, but I have been thinking about BDO a lot recently. So we've got, we've set up this sort of... This show is sponsored by BDO. No, it's not. Norse, shall I say that a few more times? Or Contala. No, I have been thinking about BDO because we've got 25 % of our workforce in Contolo are female, which obviously is not enough. And I worry, I am worried about those women's career progression because it's so hard to progress in professional services. And you feel when you talk, if you're female, you're talking before about how few women there are in corporate finance. And it's true of lots of professional services organization.

18:35organization so and I've been trying to think what is it about BDO that gave me the opportunity to really thrive and I think a lot of um professional services to be successful you've got to win work to progress um and there's loads there's lots of people who can deliver but there are far fewer who can deliver and sell and so but selling professional services is hardwired towards men and that's understandable because the majority of clients are men and that was true at BDO in corporate finance and it's true now in consultancy to build environment and so if you want to create business development opportunity um those those events um need to attract male clients to them and because you want them to attend them so so you're inevitably going to do things that would exclude women like golf and football and drinking and things.

19:37So the thing that BDO was good at was it put on a lot of gender agnostic events. So we'd have retail forums where we'd gather loads of interesting data and the big retailers were interested in it and wanted to come or we'd have dinners with great speakers and they'd want to come or education events on topics that clients wanted. And that gave a level playing playing field to me as a as a woman with my male counterpart. Now, what you do after that, you've been given the opportunity to meet these potential clients. How you take it forward is obviously up to you, regardless of what sex you are. But regardless of that, if someone's passed you the ball, at least you've got a chance of getting it in the net, haven't you?

20:21So I've been thinking about what we could do at Contolo to create those same sort of environments for my female colleagues that were coming through the business. I interviewed Nicola Merritt a few, probably last year. Yeah, so she's absolutely in the thick of it. Absolutely, at Courtice. And she took part in a round table to kind of start with International Women's Day. And she gave this story about a woman that they'd offered a job to. I think she was a partner. And then in between offering the job and starting the job, she found out she was pregnant. And she phoned up Nicola and she said, look, Nicola said, I'm going to have to withdraw the job from the job.

20:54And she was out there and said, because I found out I'm pregnant. And Nicola said something on the lines of that's great news that you're pregnant. The job will be ready for you when you're ready to come back to work and we'll get a fantastic, energized member of staff. She's exactly what they got. Absolutely. Now, those sort of conversations are few and far between. Did you and we're talking about BDO only in a sense that that's where you worked. Obviously, the corporate finance industry that you worked within was a lot wider than just that. So your experiences are across the corporate finance world.

21:25Did you find, though, that you'd have to work harder than an average male counterpart? Yeah, of course. I think women absolutely have to shine compared to them. You've got to be well above average to compete with your average male individual. You said earlier that you laugh very easily. I could give you some terrible news, and I think you would laugh because it's your default. it's your default reaction okay so we're only going to talk about serious okay face comes across serious stuff okay um let's go back to jonathan no um let's go back to contolo okay so you set contolo group up it's a name that you don't know what it means in terms of contolo if you don't it's doesn't it's not like it says in a tin sort of thing what does it mean it means bring together bring together in latin in latin i wasn't very good at latin at school neither was i and i thought it was quite a smart thing to do.

22:15And then I went to this other round table business leaders type forum and literally 50 % of the people there had some smart Latin name for their business that meant something deeply meaningful. Yeah. So so any to our listeners out there, my Latin teacher is called Peter Corman, nicknamed Scraggy. Scraggy. Scraggy. I can't imagine why. Absolutely. No, this is serious. This is a new series. Oh, right. OK. OK. But I learned one, I learned, had one year of Latin and I can honestly say I don't remember a single word of it. But I do remember the name of my teacher. So, OK, so you set Quintolo Group up, which means bring together in Latin.

22:52What does it do? So we're a consultancy to the built environment. So we've got two core disciplines in the business. One of them is cost and project management. So that's quantity surveyors. And the other is mechanical and electrical engineering. And so then if I came to you with a problem, you know, who would I be as a typical client of yours? You might be a main contractor or you might be a landowner or a developer or an end user client. Yeah, it's interesting. Earlier you mentioned Jonathan Boyers, who's a personal friend. And he's just a really, really nice guy. I mean, you know, it should be.

23:29You're married to him. But it's interesting that you spoke about the fact that you don't think you'd have achieved what you have achieved without his support. because obviously, you know, he spent 35 years at KPMG. He is Mr. Corporate Finance. He won deal maker a year four times. Still thinks he should be more than that. But he would say the same about you. And yet, you know, your success is on your merits as well. In terms of what he's brought to Contolo and as a female founder, what is it? Well, it's a few things, really. So because he's a corporate financier and an extremely experienced one, and a lot of what I've been doing to raise the money and to negotiate with private equity, with the bank, with all our stakeholders, is corporate finance.

24:21I've got some fantastic free advice on the side. It would have cost you a fortune, wouldn't it? It would have cost me a fortune. So that is fantastic. it. He's really, he gives good counsel and he gives advice. He doesn't sulk if you don't take it because obviously I'm a corporate financier as well. And it turns out that we're two at the opposite ends. You sulk. Well, yeah, I'm a great sulker. But we're at the opposite ends of the spectrum. So I'm much more detail oriented and he's much bigger picture. And so sometimes if I, I don't want to do the things that he suggested. And he's cool with that, which is healthy.

25:03I suppose the other thing is financially, though. So, you know, in between Fisherwack and Contolo, there's a period, it's nearly two years with no income, where Oliver Dennis and I were deciding what to do. He's a fellow co-founder of Contolo. He's a fellow co-founder, exactly. And so we were exploring all sorts of different things, trying to decide what to do. next we spent a year looking at all sorts of investments um thinking that we were going to create this amazing investment club um and we ended up with these two things one of one of which is contolo so but there's a lot of work that went into that with no income for a period now i'd got some money from being pay out from fisherwack and i'd got some equity in fisherwack which got paid out so i was covered from that perspective but i don't think i'd have had the confident not to get to me to panic and get another job.

25:55If Jonathan wasn't there, make it saying it's fine. I've got it all covered financially and you take you take the time you need to sort it out. So there's a few different there's a few different factors there which are important. But there might be a lot more founders in the world if if they weren't constrained by such ordinary things as the bills. More female founders in the world if there were more Jonathan. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay, which in itself is not a great thing. But that's a valid point. I always think that in life, life is finite, so you have to do what you want to do. I listened to an interview once with, I think it was an astronaut, I think it was Chris Hadfield, and he was the guy who went into space and sang, this is Major Tom from Ground Control or whatnot.

26:43I don't want to get you talking about music because we'll be here all day, given your track record. but he was asked a question what should I do for a job and he said when you go into a book store like a Waterstones who also don't sponsor the Naked Founder podcast yet what part of the bookshop do you go into because what interests you is where you'll go and read the books and I thought about this and I thought actually I go to the sports section cricket and I go to true crime you know my second choice of career was to be a detective and I would love to have been a cricketer if I've been good enough as well.

27:18So you found your calling in Contolo Group, but if the pressure had been on to pay your mortgage, you could have found yourself back in professional services. Most definitely, yeah. And not been happy. Yeah. Well, I would have been happy. I would have been happy, but this is... Not as fulfilled, maybe. Not as fulfilled, yeah. Okay. So one of the things you've done with Contolo is to try to create a business different from your experiences, I suppose in the embodiment of you in a way you think businesses should be run. So one of the things you do is you meet every member of staff who joins a business.

27:53I do. That is a lot of coffee. It's a big pot of coffee. It's a big pot of coffee. OK. Why do you do that for? I think, well, twofold, really. I mean, it's always useful. I do find out what's going on in the business. But the reason I do it is because as a buy and build, the people in the business haven't chosen to join Contolo. They've chosen to join the company we acquired. So I need to sell to them what we're about and why we're doing it and really why they should stay with us. Because our business is only as good as the people in it. We haven't got any other assets. The people are our assets.

28:34So I'm very transparent. I want them to be able to ask me anything. And they do. ask me all sorts of things um so i do these new new starter workshops every quarter now and i meet everyone who joins the business within three months of them starting and we spend half a day together and i tell them loads of stuff about contolo and our values and our culture um and then i ask them loads of stuff about the place where they used to work so what did they like about it what didn't they like about it why did they join us which is really interesting really useful information um yeah and i think i think it's really important i find i know a lot of businesses and a lot of entrepreneurs and they get to a certain scale and they stop learning the names of the people who work for them so they'll pass people on a staircase and they'll just nod without knowing their name um and i think to myself actually that's just that that relationship would be 10 stronger if you knew their name and you knew you knew a little bit about their their backstory.