Simon Swan: How I got Michael Vaughan to join my startup

0:00So welcome everyone to the latest episode of the Naked Founder podcast, a business podcast where nothing is hidden. Thank you to our sponsor, Financial, the home of money for women. And our guest today is Simon Swan. He founded two very, very different businesses. The first was Hiring Hub, which could best be described as a 14 year overnight success story before he exited. Now at the age of 45, he's gone again and his second business, Youthful, has won the backing and investment of England, former England cricket captain Michael Vaughan. Youthful, without the why, is set to break even in just three months and is already tracking to hit a£500 ,000 turnover or more in year one with only, wait for this, one member of staff.

0:41Welcome to all the staff of Youthful, Simon Swan. Hello. It always makes me laugh when we talk about businesses. Well, here's half the staff here and it's one person or here's the whole of the staff and it's one person as well. So we're going to talk about the challenges and the benefits of being the only person in the business. but we always start each episode of the Naked Founder podcast with the same question. What didn't they tell you about founding a business that you wish you'd known at the start? I think it's different for me because this being my second proper business, I've got an opportunity to do things in a slightly different way.

1:16Having learned everything I learned in that first business. So I would say when I started my first business, I didn't realize how consuming it was. It's literally, you cannot switch off. and I remember going on holiday with my wife who works for a huge American law firm and has a lot of responsibility in her role but she can actually turn the phone off when we go away and escape whereas as a founder you never switch off completely but I am managing that a lot better in this business and I feel psychologically something's changed in that my relationship with the business is a lot healthier with Youthful than it perhaps was my first one.

1:55The thing is, you've always come across as super relaxed and so relaxed, you walk backwards, even when you were at Hiring Hub as well. And I've always thought you look about 20 years younger than you are. Thank you. Absolutely. It's the benefit of youthful. Incidentally, we've got some products, non-sponsored products as well. It's just front to top to bottom in youthful products. But in terms of you've always sort of come across as quite relaxed. But I suppose without wanting to come up with one of your corny puns, you're like a swan, in a sense, on the outside above the water. You're quite relaxed.

2:30But all that work goes under the water. Would that be fair? Yeah, I think I do come across, well, I know I come across as very laid back and chill. I'm actually, I am, I have an ability to maintain my emotions, which I think is useful in business. But I can be very intense, which, again, is helpful and that I can focus for long periods. I think I'm definitely on some kind of neurodiversity spectrum that allows me to focus for long periods of time and get stuff done. I've got a feeling most of the founders we've had on the Naked Founder podcast would also be on that spectrum somewhere. I'm going to start off by talking about something very, very close to my heart, which is cricket, which is the biggest, not the biggest, the second biggest lover of my life.

3:16You secured the investment of former England cricket captain Michael Vaughan, famously Captain England in 2005 Ashes brought a tear to my eye you managed to secure his backing at the very start of Youth Falls' journey how did that come about? a good friend of mine is a really good friend of Michael's and I knew from really the media and the press that Michael was very focused on his health having had challenges with it in the past and so he certainly had challenges with his knees but he's always been a clean cyclist. Yeah, and this is it. So we ended up meeting and I explained what I was doing with Youthball and it was the perfect timing really.

4:01He'd been playing around with supplements for a couple of years. He had his own nutritionist. I explained, one of the big catalysts in building Youthball was that I was taking 10 or 12 capsules every morning myself and found it a massive hassle, a faff and I wanted it all in one single drink. and he was in exactly the same position. He opened his cupboards in the morning and they looked like a pharmacy. So when I explained that, no, I've got 24 minerals, vitamins, nutrients in this one drink that you take each morning and this is what was in it, he sent that list off to his nutritionist who gave it a thumbs up and he was in straight away.

4:38And not just in as an investor, he really wanted to get involved. Yeah, because you're seeing these adverts which are dropping into my Facebook feed and my social media feed as well, which obviously must cost a fair few quid as well. But I always look at a business and I'm not a dragon's den or some sort of wealthy investor or anything like that. But I look at it from my own perspective. And, you know, when my nan, God bless her, reached a certain age, she had a pill thing on her desk. Monday's pills, Tuesday pills, Wednesday pills. I thought to myself, I'm never going to get to that point. And then my wife insisted I take vitamins.

5:10I got four on a Monday, four on a Tuesday. and I literally, you would take him and it felt like I was going to choke to death on a bit of a minute. Not the way I'd want to go out, incidentally. So you came up with this idea. So he straight away was on board. When you meet a high-profile investor like that, and I know unlike me, you're not a cricket nerd, do you just see him as a bloke with two legs or do you just see him as a guy who's got a profile that goes with it? I think, like you said, I'm a swan and I'm good at looking calm. I don't know yeah it's hard not to put someone like that on a bit of a pedestal because of what he's achieved in the past but I'd I'd met him previously I wouldn't say you know we weren't friends or anything but interestingly we played football together in the past at Macclesfield Town where he he's a good footballer yeah played in midfield and so he's a good sportsman full stop I mean yeah well he plays a lot of paddle now as well and he's good at that annoyingly so yeah so yeah I think there was an element of heights michael vaughan but equally um you know i was dead excited about what i was doing with youthful and he was one of the very first people i properly introduced it to um and so it was kind of a test of like this idea i'd had because at the stage it really was an idea i had a name yeah i'd mocked up a few packaging designs and i had the formulation and a nutritional therapist on board that was it um no website nothing so um so yeah it was an opportunity for me to kind of test the spiel with somebody real to see how they'd respond okay um going to ask you a question okay um where is a short leg on a cricket field it's on the cricket field as you suggested absolutely perhaps you failed your cricket test okay um so i'm going to take you back a little bit before we talk about michael vaughan because uh and and youthful and everything that goes along with it as well so your first rodeo was hiring hub yeah which um you exited after 14 years and I'd interviewed you about that a lot just explain what Hiring Hub was.

7:14Yeah so it's a B2B marketplace that connected employers to a network of independent specialist recruitment agencies the goal with it was to take the friction out of working with and managing recruiters. Yeah and you always used to say to me when I made that mistake we're not a recruiter you were just the platform so you were bringing the two a bit like if it was a startup today people would say it's the uber of recruitment or it's the you know whatever um the sort of tinder of recruitment you were a platform which brought the two the end user and the provider together if you like okay you started that business well you're 45 now so what were you 30 when you founded yeah i was on my honeymoon designing the logo were you you just most people on honeymoons aren't designing logos for businesses um so you're 30 years of age at the time yeah 30 and you launched it with sarah jones your former co-founder of the business as well yeah um just explain that 14 year that 14 year journey because because it was a long journey wasn't it yeah and i think back you know we knew nothing well i certainly i won't speak for sarah but i knew nothing about um starting and scaling a company um so we entered it very naively and like i said it is all consuming it takes over your life and it's hard so we learn everything from like how to recruit people train them build systems processes how to raise capital how to build an application how to attract customers and try and keep them um so it was a challenging journey and it was a journey it did it was a roller coaster we had some great times we had some challenging events and yeah i look back now i'm proud of what we managed to build and the good times we had you know we had a great team culture and uh yeah it's still going i think at its peak i think you grew up to about 50 staff didn't you yeah yeah with offices here and in uh cape town as well yeah so so and i remember sarah your co-founder saying to me that one of the things you did in the early days when it was just you and her is somebody would phone for you she would answer it and they say can i speak to simon please i'll just check if he's in like that five minutes five seconds of silence yep i've just managed to catch him i'm going to transfer you now and you would do exactly the same so is there a degree when you're founding a business and you are naive an element of fake it till you make it was Was that a big part of your package?

9:33Yeah, I think it's just a sense that we had to be perceived as bigger or more established than we were. And, yeah, little things like that were part of fun, but, you know, they had a goal, which was to build trust. You know, we were selling that to enterprise businesses that probably wouldn't have taken it. If they knew where we actually were, two people in a shared office space in the centre of Manchester University, we probably wouldn't have been given the opportunities we did get. So, yeah, absolutely. It was it was fake it till you make it. You lost you learned loads of lessons from Hiring Hub.

10:07I mean, you know, Sarah left the business, your co-founder, you raised investment and then you bought that investor out. You raised investment at the back end, private equity as well. What lessons do you look back up at Hiring Hub and, you know, do you take into your new business and life going forward? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, there's lots of business lessons, I think, in terms of just around leading, well, just running a business generally and how to scale it, like I said, around business, around processes, et cetera. And then there's the leadership side. But primarily, I think the things I think about the most are the personal learnings of like what bits I enjoyed, the things I didn't enjoy, and taking those lessons and deploying them in youthful to shape, not just the business, but the life that I want to live for the next 10 years.

11:03Some founders, we talk about the difference between being a founder and being a CEO. Okay, so private equity came on board. You took a sideways step. That's how I sort of saw it as well. And I always think that you were hiring Hub and hiring Hub was you. And then suddenly you weren't hiring Hub. And it was like part of what made you, you wasn't there anymore as well. and walking away from a business that you founded can be quite a painful process. Was it painful for you? And when did you know was the right time for you to, you know, plough your own furrow elsewhere? Yeah, no, it wasn't painful.

11:35I think I'd had a lot of time to consider what I wanted to do. Not necessarily next, I had no plan when I left, which I think it was. When did you leave again? It was the winter of 2024. Right. um and so yeah no it wasn't difficult i was ready i'd like i said it'd been 14 years i was 30 when i started it i was then like mid 40s two kids yeah two kids exactly things my life had changed and i didn't want i wanted to have a go at something else i didn't want that one thing to completely define a career um and equally the world was changing like ai was on this exponential growth curve that was getting interesting in the technology world but it also left me thinking well I don't know what on earth could I build software wise that would be safe from AI in three years time so I was just took a step back and realized I wanted to do something else didn't know what it was but the only way I'd find out is if I left and went and just took some time there's a phrase that I hear a lot, which is burn the boats.

12:42And you had to burn the boats metaphorically and step away from hiring up. So just explain that quote and why you had to physically burn the boats. Yeah, to explain the quote, I can't remember the exact history lesson that should go with the story, but effectively it's a military quote from a general or something in an army where they take the soldiers to the beach and they make them burn the boat so there really is no exit path they have to go forward um to survive uh war so it's yeah that's the the origins of the quote and it felt like that's what i needed to do which was remove my safety net and security blanket and just go forward to find whatever new ideas or paths that were out there because i knew that i couldn't when i was all in at Hiring Hub and consumed by that business, my head wasn't in a clear enough space to be able to get creative again and think about what I'm going to do next.

13:43I think you've always been purpose-led. You've always had a reputation for integrity as well. You post on social media and invariably it'll be things, your voice, you'll speak out against bad practice, which I think is what we should all do, really. Gary Neville speaks about the fact that when he retired from Man United 15 years ago, who's 36 years of age he didn't want that to be the only thing he did in his life he didn't want to be known only as a footballer and he's like reinvented himself obviously as a commentator briefly as a football coach huge accessible business person as well and a you know tv pundit and dragon's den it's got about 58 different titles as well i suppose when you're a one-time founder there's a danger that you'll always be known as that for that was that something that made you scared no no it was not about anybody else and what they thought what i was doing it was about it was me i just um just think life's short and i wanted to i'm i feel at my happiest when i'm learning and doing not necessarily new things but doing the things that i love doing and i love building things solving problems scaling like this phase right now at youthful you know i'm So every day is a genuine experiment and it's exciting and we're learning and things happen so fast and it's moving so quickly that I'm absolutely loving it.

15:07And I think that's the big lesson from Hiring Hub. In year 11, it wasn't the same as years 1, 2, 3, etc. So I'm just trying to enjoy these early stages of the new venture. I've used this analogy before, but it's a bit like having a child, isn't it? it's a bit like those first six months to that first year to that walking phase that you know toddling phase to that running phase as well and you enjoy you clearly enjoy this part i have to be honest as well is that you came in today laden with gifts so i've got my very own very own drinking bottle there um i'll just point that and these this is the packet right and the thing that struck me about it as well is just that a it reminded me of apple you know it's just like steve jolt's talks about that image is everything and this is exclusive isn't it i mean one of these packages costs about just under 70 quid is that right yeah subscription-based model as well but you brought in that try it out you you you bring people into your website you bring people into your social media you work with a fulfillment company you work with a manufacturing company who makes this product um you've got you've got ambitions to hit like 500 000 to a million you know in year one maybe just a bit afterwards as well.

16:22You came in, you gave this to me because it is just you. Right. There is nobody else as well as a founder. I've got a dog. You've got a dog. What does the dog bring to the business? Actually, she's quite a distraction. So, yeah, not a lot. Okay. But, you know, I almost think that's the way businesses are going, especially at the start. No expensive overheads, et cetera, et cetera. And you can flex up and down. You've not got these people on your payroll as well. you are the ambassador for the business you can see it in your in your sweatshirt that you're wearing and the drink bottle on the on the work surface there um is that the way to go is that how you think businesses are going to go moving forward it's going to be these you know one man one person operations i think it's more it's possible now whereas it was much harder even five years ago let alone 20 um with with technology and how the way the world's going I'm not saying that I'll be a solo founder forever.

17:19In fact, I feel like I can get this business, like I said, this year to a run rate of over a million pounds, which is circa 1 ,200 subscribers. We're on a path to that already. So that feels more than achievable as a single, as just me. But the ambition is much bigger than that, and I will need to hire. But I knew when I had six months or so, literally just spending time with my family and riding my bike around Spain waiting for this idea to come to me. Was it simply a question that if you create the right environment to get those brain cells ticking, something will come to you? Yeah, yeah, I trusted the universe.

18:03But it was true. Lots of ideas kept coming through my head, but this is the one thing that kept coming back and it just wouldn't leave me alone. and as soon as it became, as soon as I had a name for it Where did the name come from? I was just rattling my brain, I was lying in bed at night thinking what are the names that haven't been taken and one of the things I thought was how does it make me feel and one benefit of it is it gives you more sustained energy so it's not like caffeine or sugar where you're up and down jittery and you have a crash it's like just i feel like i've got 20 more energy all day long um than i used to have and i was thinking i energy but it sounded like an energy drink um and i couldn't see it but then i was thinking how does it actually make me feel when i wind it all back and youthful was the word i came up because i was feeling as good as i felt you know in my late 20s despite being 45 so as soon as i had that name i was it was like i said i was in bed and i was hiding the phone of the covers yeah so my wife and i was working on godaddy to see if the domain was available and of course youthful spelled correctly isn't but i managed to spell it incorrectly yeah and i got the domain and after that it became like i don't know just giving it a name it became very real and also for others i visualized it as well i started to design some of this packaging just using ai tools and then like i said that first meeting with michael i could take him something and sharing a picture on my phone and it all of a sudden it became real and people took it more seriously took me and the idea more seriously and it just developed wings of its own that was only that was june plus june 25 have you got have you got any ideas you can share with us that you've binned off you said that when you're doing that bike ride across across spain yeah i went to see a pub you want to do a pub i went to see a pub a really romantic idea it's a pub i love in the peak district it's called the swan yeah um and it's a restaurant and pub with some rooms and i was thinking oh could that be the thing could that give me what i want from life and could i put my stamp on that um what else there was i think one thing i did is a step back like i said about the technology and i looked at ai and i just couldn't see myself building another tech business because i didn't know where that was going and i asked like what are the things in a world with AI that we as humans will value more and spend money on and one was well-being and health others were things like hospitality and experiences like holidays etc so I was kind of going down that kind of path but I kept coming back you know I'm really into I'm a cyclist really into sport health I've always looked after myself and so this was something I was really passionate about I think sometimes you know I always say you know what the right thing is to do what the right decision is and that might be doing something or not doing something but yeah you keep coming back to it can't find a reason why you wouldn't want to do it and also it it gives you you know it's just it fills you with energy and and you the worst thing i think we come up with a great idea is the idea that somebody else might come up with a great idea and take your idea that really eats me up big style um in terms of i can't be like that with this because i literally have to print the formulation and all the dosages on the back of the packet so it's like you can copy it but But again, can you deliver it in the same way, the same experience, the same quality of product, the same third party testing manufactured in the UK?

21:35All of the things that we've had to kind of tick the boxes to make sure we're doing creating the best product we can. And I say we, me. I mean, from the inception of the idea to actually take in that first drink of that supplement drink was how long? I think it really cemented the idea. It was around June 25. And then the first samples I got back in late August from the manufacturer. We've got lots of different businesses on the Naked Founder podcast, different sizes as well. Established businesses, multi-serial exited founders as well. you know you're you're a two-time founder a bit like luke littler two times winner um so but you're at the beginning of your second journey okay and you are treating it completely differently in the sense that you're very personal everything's very close to you as well um but in terms of in terms of if somebody's somebody listening to this right now thinking i've got a great idea right there's so many free tools out there that people lose sight of you mentioned we've mentioned ai as well you you've your your the simon swan brand is part of the youthful brand isn't it you know when you post on linkedin as well what's your advice to founders out there you know who are thinking about going with with a business uh startup but but maybe a little bit reticent about making the leap it's without it's so could be so nuanced but generally i'd say just find a way to test the idea and that's the that's what's easier now with the tools that are available it could and it can just be a linkedin post it could be a few comments like i obviously i met michael and tested it with him i met the nutritional therapist joanne hill who came on board and helped me um tested it with her because she really knew the industry and the feedback i kept getting was that this is this like you know the concept's good the brand's good the product um certainly the ideation stage was really good i kept getting all this positive feedback in which case it gave me the confidence to go out and and create it one thing you've done as well on linkedin is you've been completely transparent so you speak about life as a founder you talk about you know things are going great here's a testimonial and then the next day you you e-commerce side of the business dropped off a cliff okay why is that okay um so just talk about some of the little pitfalls you've to navigate so far but also the value of content and being storytelling is fundamental to every business for me it is i i mean i know i would say that i'm a journalist but if you can't tell your story and there's multiple platforms to tell it on now you miss a massive trick so just explain some of the challenges you've had to overcome and also why you are now you're part of the story aren't you your content is part of the story yeah and you're acting now as a other founders are looking up to you as somebody to go to to to share your experiences yeah i just think those experiences are you know it's not every day is perfect and positive and we have we've had loads of things so we've come like i said the meta facebook ads just stopped working we made too many changes we spread too little budget too thinly across too many variants and we had a day the first day since launch with no sales and i was like what's happened um and there's other things I had a shipment of boxes of bottles with dents in like hundreds of them.

25:02I had, I printed 3000 boxes with the wrong colour ink. And so there's always, did you, did you get rid of those boxes or did you? Fortunately, it wasn't my issue. It was the manufacturer. So yeah, there's just, and again, I think the second time around, you can take a view on these things and zoom out and realise that that's just life. that's just business and um yeah take the punches and carry on the next day but i feel more inclined now to document it without the rose tinted glasses and to give like this stuff is good that's happened this is bad and on we go type narrative rather than just sharing humble brags and good news that's something that you've never really done in the sense that because you've always sort of been quite truthful to yourself we've all seen the people on linkedin who talk about the fact that everything's going fantastically well, raising all this investment, et cetera, et cetera.

26:00And we all know those people. You think to yourself, it's not true. It's not real life as well. And I think the older you get, the more that part of you inside that says, I need to be authentic. I need to be that person who's telling people that this is the reality of it as well. Clearly, that's really important to you now at the stage of life that you're at. And you're still a young man, relatively speaking to me. Yeah, I know you are, you are. but being authentic is part of your brand isn't it yeah yeah i don't i think i don't know it's just me it is authentic i don't want to be any different way the best thing about this business actually just that popped in my head is that i'm doing it at the minute i'm doing it from home i do have an office that i can use but i never go in because it's just me and my kids are watching me build it they're watching it literally from that idea stage to oh i wonder if i could do this to samples of things like this coming through the post and hoodies merch etc they get all excited about and it's a really nice thing to be able to do as a dad to show them like yeah you can go to university and become a doctor or accountant or whatever but you could just have an idea one day and build it one of the nice things that i i look back on my my two girls are a bit older but the youngest one's got a big business interest as well and we used to watch dragon's den together and then the moment somebody comes in and says the best way to get her to learn math she does math online teaching now she's got three different jobs was right i'm going to offer five cent of business for a hundred thousand pounds and then she say within 10 seconds how can a business that's not generating any revenue claim to be an evaluation of x um and i just thought it's nice to be able to share that experience with her as well and you know hopefully your kids will be even more successful than you are um can you say what sort of revenue are you doing now yeah what are we doing now because every day it's moving up we're doing we've got about 200 subscribers so about just under 300k of ARR annualised recurring revenue and like I said the goal is a million right now and break even is about 400 odd subscribers so we're not a million miles away from that and like you really celebrate every success story don't you every positive testimony or every new order you love it don't you I do yeah because it's it's exciting right now the best metric in the business right now retention rate which is 94 % and it's a subscription business so it will compound all I kind of need to figure out and improve is the customer acquisition model which is primarily at the moment on meta using Instagram and Facebook ads so it's like what messaging right now we've got a brand nobody knows what it is nobody knows what's in it nobody knows why you take it or what the benefits are so it's just about educating the market so that they understand you know why you would take it.

28:43You think you can get to around a million quid revenue on your Jaxi? If you look at the bigger vision for the business, I mean, you look at my protein's not a million miles away from us here in Manchester. A lot of those supplement brands are worth a lot of money as well. Do you let yourself get carried away and think, well, this could be a£100 million business? Or do you not think like that? Yeah, no, sometimes I let myself get carried away. and I think because I wanted to create something that could be valuable one of my personal goals has always been financial independence so I wanted to create something that could ultimately be sold and isn't totally reliant on me so yeah, a dream but I think for me it was about is the market big enough it's a really competitive market this is there's loads of great brands doing some really good stuff one was there a niche that I could see for me and youthful and two how do I go out and take that segment of the market Do you think that having founded one business that you were unemployable?

29:51Yeah I thought about that a lot after because I didn't have any set there was a moment where I thought maybe I'd just get a job maybe I'd just go and work for another really exciting company that would fulfil me and I could do some interesting things but then I couldn't really think what would that what could that job look like and what would give me the flexibility and freedom to be creative every day um and have some of that control so i probably am unemployable yeah a lot of the founders talk about that having founded one business they can't see themselves working for anybody else as well um you seem to be loving youthful in a way that it's not to say you didn't enjoy hiring hub but i think that you can't not be slightly fatigued at doing something 13 14 years and have the same enthusiasm that you had at the very beginning of that journey as well.

30:39Would that be fair? Would you say at 45 you're as happy as you've been for a decade or more? Yeah, I think so. I think just generally... Still got no grey hair, I'll be honest with you. No, I have got grey hair. That's coming through. I can't avoid that. But yeah, no, it's genuinely happiest I've ever been probably. I think you get to a stage, don't you, where professionally things are going well. Family, I've got a 10-year-old, a 14-year-old. Wife's good. parents both parents still alive so just in a really good place waiting for things to break down what's the last uh the last last two questions okay we've spoken about everything that's great okay what's the hardest thing about being a solo founder it can be lonely but again i've been quite purposeful around who i've put around me as a business i went out and built i knew i'd need help with performance advertising i'd need help with the website i'd need help with fulfillment and that so i've built a little mini team around me that i speak to daily and i've got an investment group around me that are almost like handpicked the people i know and respect who have put some money into youthful and you know i'm eating two of them for coffee tomorrow morning so it's not like i suppose loneliness is the one thing um that i can fall victim to but equally i've got a good support network and i'm more uh i think i'm much faster to recognise it now and pick at the phone and if I've got a problem or something and talk it through with one of the investors.

32:05You've also got a dog though. It's not a flipping point as well. What's the name of the dog? Molly. Molly, yeah. You go for long walks with Molly, who is the vice president of Youthful. Absolutely. But that's such a great thing for your mental health and everything else goes with it. We've got a tradition on the Naked Founder podcast where at the end we always say there's tradition in the US where the outgoing president will write a letter to the successor. And I'm not sure necessarily that'll happen with the current president. But if you had to write a letter to Simon Swan on day one of founding the business, whether it's this one or the one before, or to any founder, what would you write?

32:45Yeah, it would just be around enjoyment. You just got to, you can't be too serious. And I think you've just got to try and enjoy every learning, whether good or bad and zoom out from the day to day and maintain that happiness yeah because yeah i mean it's all a big game isn't it life and i think you just got to go through it and be happy you've never got i always think your even your voice is very sort of monotone quite flat in the sense that when you raise a big investment raise or you had a you know something having in a business which wasn't great say your voice stays the same doesn't it you know i don't think you get too high when it's going well you don't get too low when you have these difficulties you're quite like steady steady are you always like that yeah i genuinely i sometimes i'm like oh what's wrong with me i don't have huge highs or big lows i just i'm fairly balanced yeah what's your happy place i'm a bike on your bike yeah like a four or five hour bike ride in the countryside or a good dog walk with Molly.

33:51How far would you go on the bike, though? Yeah, as far as time allows, often. So, I mean, I was in Spain last weekend, and we'd five, six hours. Right, well, how many kilometres is that? About 140, about 100 miles. Well, I'm going to start taking some of this, and if on the back of it I can cycle hundreds of kilometres, well, first of all, I'd have to find somebody to fix my bike, but I think you'll have a new market there. I mean, you're looking at the next MyProtein. Massive thanks to you, Simon, for coming in. That's all for this episode of the Naked Founder Podcast. Thanks to our sponsor, Phanatiel, the home of money for women.

34:31If you've enjoyed this episode of the Naked Founder Podcast, please tell your friends and family and do press that subscribe button. My name, as always, is Chris McGuire. Thanks.