Creating the Future of New York City! -With Sara Lind

0:00This is the story of the one. The one who keeps multiple buildings running smoothly day after day. Plumbing that flows, HVAC that hums, cleaning supplies that keep surfaces sparkling. That's why she counts on Grainger. With easy reordering online and 24-7 support, Grainger helps her keep the product she needs on hand. So shelves stay stocked and buildings stay ready. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by. Grainger. For the ones who get it done. Hello, everyone, and welcome to The New Yorker, a podcast by New York City Cop. I'm your host, Kelly Copp, published photographer, New York City tour business owner, content creator, podcaster, and above all else, a New Yorker.

0:42Ladies and gentlemen, the next book looks about, Craig, is now right. Stand clear of the closing doors, please.

1:05This is a time square.

1:23With me today, my friends, I have Executive Director Sarah Lind right here. She is the co-executive director of Open Plans, a New York City-based advocacy organization working to make streets and public spaces more livable. Sarah is a frequent media source on urban planning and policy with appearances on WPIX11, ABC7, WNYC, and NY1. New York 1, I should say. She holds a JD from the University of Chicago, an MIA from Columbia SIPA, and a BS from the University of Wisconsin. But above all else, she is a New Yorker. Hey, Sarah, welcome to the show. How are you today? I'm great. Thank you so much for having me.

2:06Wow, I love everything that you've done right here reading this too. Real quick, you know, at the University of Wisconsin, is that in Platteville? No, Madison. Madison, okay. Because years ago, I lived in the Midwest, and I wasn't sure exactly where it was. But you just brought back some memories. But anyway, tell us about you, Sarah. Tell us about yourself, where you're from, you know, how your life started. Where was that? Yeah. Well, I'm originally from Wisconsin, which is how I ended up at the University of Wisconsin. Right. Sort of a mid-sized city called Beloit. And, you know, had a sort of lovely childhood in a very walkable neighborhood.

2:45Rode myself to school. Yeah. All those things. but you know I always wanted to live in a bigger place. Understood. You know I kind of always wanted to come to New York. It was a circuitous route there but it's been such a joy finally getting here. You know I haven't talked about this much on my podcast but I was actually born in Iowa and my whole family is from Iowa and Wisconsin was just across the Mississippi River right there was in Dubuque, Dubuque, Iowa so we were neighbors you know. I was born at a different time than you, but we were neighbors. But then go ahead, I mean interrupt. Oh, no.

3:22Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting having that background. I'm sure you feel the same way. Yeah. I think you see New York in a slightly, you know, from a slightly different perspective, knowing what it's like to live somewhere small and sometimes small-minded. and coming to New York just, you know, really changed my life. And also both from a personal perspective, but professionally, you know, I brought up the fact that I could bike to school because I think in so many places in America, you know, kids can't. And I really wanted to live in a place where I could get around without a car as an adult.

4:03And I have two kids. So raising them here in New York City and the freedom they have being free from cars is really part of why I do the work I do. Wow. So you rode your bike to school in Wisconsin. You know, I don't think we did actually. Maybe we're a little bit too far, you know, but we rode our bikes everywhere too. I loved it. That's what I loved about, you know, being a child in the Midwest. Yeah. And, you know, we came home when it was dusk. You know, it was a much different time. And I mean, we're all over the city. I mean, riding our bikes everywhere. Yeah. And so I love that's what we're going to talk about today.

4:38Yeah. That's the whole point of this podcast. So you were in Wisconsin and you were pretty, you know, you have so many amazing accolades. And even as a young person, in school, you were active, correct? So tell us about that. I think that's fascinating, like how your brain works. I love it, you know. Go ahead. Well, you know, always an overachiever. Yeah. I've tried to dial that back a little as an adult, you know, give myself some grace and space. Yeah, always an overachiever at Wisconsin, at Madison. I was very active in student organizations and student life. And I went straight through to law school, which I have thoughts about for anyone out there looking to go to law school.

5:26But always thought I wanted to be involved civically in some way. And getting a law degree felt like a step on that path. But then when you're in law school, you get a lot of offers to go to big fancy law firms where they're going to pay you a lot and wine and dine you. So I did that for about four and a half years, almost five years. In Wisconsin? In Chicago. Oh, in Chicago. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. And so then what happened after that? Well, it wasn't for me working in a big law firm. Right. I realized I really want to do mission-based work, you know, and I want to feel good about my work.

6:04And the one thing that I was able to do when I was at a big law firm was a lot of them do pro bono work. They give you a chance to go do work for free for clients. And I represented a lot of people seeking asylum. And it was the most meaningful work I did there, obviously. But I saw how broken our immigration system is. I mean, it's just. Can I ask you what years this was? Oh, yeah, it was honestly much better years. this would have been from 2007 to 2011. A little bit different, yeah. Yeah. Just for context. Totally. Yeah, I can't imagine working in that space right now. I bet. It would be very, very difficult.

6:46But even then, the system is just so broken. Right. And I loved working with individual clients. It was so meaningful. You know, helping them and ushering them through their cases was so important to me. But I realized that I am a big picture thinker and I want to think about the systems, how we fix systems. So in advocacy, there's kind of two paths. You know, there's that like direct service path. And then there's more of the systemic thinking path. And I learned a lot about myself and learned that that was the path I wanted to go down. So I went and got my master's at Columbia to focus more on public policy.

7:26And that was here in New York, correct? That was in New York. It's not what brought me here. I came because my husband at the time is from here. And we had two little kids and, you know, wanted to bring them here and raise them. You know, his family was here, is here. Is he from Wisconsin? No, he's from New York. He's from Manhattan. Well, how did you meet him? I'm so sorry. That's what I mean. Oh, we were working together at a law firm in Chicago. He went to law school in Chicago, as did I. And he started working at a law firm there. That's where we met. And then we came to New York. He's like, I want to go back to New York.

7:56I'm like, I'm going with you. And I was like, I am so in. Yes, please. So had you been to New York before that? A few times. Yeah. But not for any extended period of time. But I think back to my childhood and I just remember like wanting so badly to be here. Me too. So it felt so right. Doesn't it? Yeah. Just so right. We came to look for an apartment and I just was like, oh, I'm home. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly how I felt, you know, and still feel. Absolutely. You know, this is home. Yeah. There's really no place I can live now other than New York City. And never say never. But, you know, I always say to people around the world who it's their dreams to be here, you know, and sadly may never, you know, come visit.

8:41But in their heart, they feel like New Yorkers from watching TV, movies and all that. And that's what the city does that's so special to everybody. Yeah. You know. Yeah. There's a quote. I'm forgetting who said it. but about the different value that immigrants from abroad bring, that native-born New Yorkers bring, and that, I hate the phrase, but transplants bring. And I think we bring a passion that is chosen. It's a chosen home. Completely agree. And side note, look what's going on with the Knicks right now. I know. Are you going bonkers? Wednesday was insane. I've never experienced a sports moment like that before.

9:22Me neither. I was losing my mind. I think the whole city was, and people around the world were too. Yeah. I've had a few calls over the last few days with people outside of New York who immediately ask me, what's it like? We're rooting for you. I love it. The city feels amazing. It does. So let's talk about the reason you're here too. Your passion for what you do among many of your passions, but a main passion that you have. Yeah, I think the Knicks is a great example of it, what's going on right now, which is you see after the games, people pouring into the streets and celebrating together and using that public space, you know, to build community with each other.

10:06And that's at Open Plans how we think about public space. It is for moving through. You know, we have roads and sidewalks that help us get places. But it's also our communal space. You know, most New Yorkers don't have a front yard or a backyard. When you leave your apartment or your home, you're on our sidewalks. That's where you see your neighbors. You know, that sense of community. There's a woman on my block. I always see her walking her dog. I don't know her name. We smile and nod every morning. You know, it's that those moments that we can have in the city and our public spaces and how we create and manage those spaces to ensure that they can be the best possible places for New Yorkers to coexist together.

10:51Right. So it's called Open Plan specifically, right? Yes. I love that. I think that's a great name. Yeah. Go ahead. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. That's I think that's that's the core of our mission. You know, we have a lot of different campaigns, but the really fundamental part is how we use public space for people, not just for cars or trucks or other vehicles. Wow. So how does that, you know, side note too here, how does that tie into congestion pricing and things like that? Yeah, directly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of the work we do is kind of around the fact that if you want that space to be for people, we need fewer cars and vehicles on the street.

11:35You look back at pictures of New York from 100 years ago and the sidewalks were wide. People kind of walked around the streets. You know, Park Avenue was a literal park. And as cars became more and more dominant, we took space from people and gave it to vehicles. And part of what we think about is how do we reclaim that space? How do we get space back for people? We've seen on 8th Avenue, the Department of Transportation has started creating wider sidewalks and filled immediately. You know, there's so much pedestrian traffic there that as soon as people have more space, they spread out and use it.

12:11But that means that we do have to reduce the number of cars on the street, especially in a place like Manhattan, Midtown. You know, we're right by Canal Street right here. Right. And so congestion pricing is one tool in the toolbox of how you sort of incentivize people not to drive as much, you know. Um, some people need to drive. There's always going to be car trips happening. Um, maybe in some kind of ideal world, not generally, you know, um, but how do we get people to make other choices when they can, you know, right. Midtown, lower Manhattan. We have the best public transportation in the country.

12:45Some of the best public transportation in the world. So most people can, you know, take a train to get here if they need to. Not everyone. So, but it's just like incentivizing people's choices and helping them make different choices. Well, there's also so much controversy about congestion pricing. And I was watching one of your videos, and I loved your rebuttal, so to speak, about, I think it was the governor in New Jersey was kind of anti. And tell them what he said. Do you know what I'm talking about? I'm not sure. He basically said, like, you know, it's just another tax or whatever. You know, and you said, well, you have tolls.

13:25It's the same thing. You know? Yeah. And I was like, what a great answer, you know, because he was kind of negating it. And you're like, well, it's basically the same thing. It literally is. You know, I love that you said that. I was like, go Sarah. That was really good. It literally is a toll. It's under the same program that allows states across the country to use tolls on their road. The only difference is that it's what we call a cordon toll. So versus on a highway, you drive through the toll. You're going from one place to another. This is just you're coming in, so you pay the toll. Right.

13:55Otherwise, exactly the same. Well, I think other major cities have had success around the world with congestion pricing, like London, for instance, correct? Yep. And other, you know, I did some research in other countries, other cities, large cities, too. Yeah. I can't remember the specific names right now. Singapore is another famous example where they've had a lot of success. But what we have seen in both of those cities is that if the toll is too low, people just sort of take it, it becomes the cost of their commute. So you kind of have to keep inching it up if you want to change behavior. Interesting.

14:32Yeah, that's accounted for in the law a little bit, but mostly it's kind of just with inflation. So one of the things that we are urging the city and the state to keep in mind is keep an eye on how many people are driving and you might need to change. I don't know if you remember, but when it first went into effect in January of 2025, there were no cars. Everyone was thinking, well, how is this going to work? What are we going to do? And then we've seen slowly it's kind of come back to a lot of congestion. And it's working, correct? It's working for sure. But it's kind of funny when something's implemented that's different in a major city or any city or town, whatever, and just all the hullabaloo about it.

15:14You know what I mean? And all the everybody's up in arms, you know, just give it some time. We'll see what happens. You know, do you feel our new mayor, Mamdami, is helping with this, too, like with his policies? Yeah, he definitely is very aligned with us on this issue of, you know, reclaiming streets and spaces for people. He has announced a lot of bike lane projects, bus lane projects. You know, he has all these. They're doing a lot of watch parties for the World Cup. Right, yeah. On open streets. So, yeah, in terms of these issues, he's been great. Right, because it does depend on who the mayor is or who is running the city.

15:56So I'm just curious, you know, because I don't know that much how to, you know, and have you spoken to him and things like that, too? Yeah. So I will say the previous mayor, Eric Adams, was not so good in many ways. But on these issues, definitely. So he, you know, early in his term proposed some very good projects. And then as soon as there was even the slightest bit of political backlash from his donors, he stopped projects. So one of the things that Mayor Mamdani has done is literally just restart projects that, you know, everything was ready to go. So shovels in the ground very quickly. So that's great.

16:35And then now he's starting to think about, you know, bolder new projects as well. Yeah, we definitely work closely with the Department of Transportation under Mayor Mamdani. You know, we're not going to agree on everything and that's okay. That's politics. Yeah, that's politics. but as long as you can come together on the main things that are important to both of you. Yeah. And I think they're, they're doing a really great job. I think many of the staff at DOT have been very excited to be empowered again by this mayor. That's good to hear. That's good to hear. I think, I think he's doing a pretty good job.

17:08Yeah. So especially it's interesting, you know, we have the, what's going on with the Knicks. We have this positivity with the mayor. I think it's a nice little era that this is becoming or getting into. So for bicycles, too, how do you feel about city bikes and everything like that in the city here? Well, love city bike, both as a concept and as a rider. Right. And what is May? May is bicycle? May was Bicycle Mom. Okay, correct. Yeah, every year, right? Every year. Around the country. Or is it just New York City? I'm just curious. I think around the country. Yeah, that's what I thought, too. Now I'm not sure.

17:42Just making sure. But go ahead. Yeah, tell us about that, too. Yeah. You know, but I think that the issue with biking in New York City is that many people don't feel safe. Right. Correct. It's chaotic out there on our streets. I think it's a very fair point right there. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't actually start biking in New York until the pandemic. Me too. Yeah. And they did everywhere. Because it's so much quieter, you know. Exactly. It's safer, you know. Right. So I rode my bike everywhere. I have a city bike right outside my apartment door. Same. And I, it's the beauty of New York, you know? And so, I mean, I rode my bike everywhere, you know, for, I loved it.

18:18And are you still riding a lot? Um, not really. And it's not because I don't enjoy it. I do love it. And like I said, growing up in Iowa, you know, I, we rode our bikes everywhere. I'm just getting a little bit older and my body's getting a little bit, you know, saying some things to me. That's the only, that's the only reason, you know? Yeah. But so, you know, I started biking during the pandemic and became a confident biker. And now I love it. I got a cargo bike and would ride my son to school when he was still having me take him to school. Now he's too old. How old are your kids? Well, he's 12, so he's in middle school.

18:52Older at that age, like, mom and dad, don't talk to me. Don't embarrass me. Yeah, he takes some years. But it's more fun for us to embarrass them now, too. That's true. That's true. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. No, I mean, just to go on that side note, you know, now he takes the city bus to school. My daughter takes the train to school. She's in Brooklyn. Quick question. Yeah. And I, as a parent, what age do you let your child take the subway? I, I'm always so curious about this. Like, I always ask my friends, like, what do you know? I feel like I'd be a helicopter parent and so worried. Like, how's it work?

19:22I'm definitely not a helicopter parent. So I might be, I might be looser than some of your friends. They're four. They're on the subway. No, but, um, you know, they went to elementary school in the neighborhood. So I started letting them walk themselves to school in like fourth, fifth grade. So I guess like around 10. and then riding the city bus around sixth grade. So maybe more like 10 or 11. And then my daughter started. She took art classes at the Art Institute, Art Student League. And so she would take the one train down starting when she was maybe 11. Yeah. Wow. And my son now takes the train.

20:00And you're just like, see ya? Yeah. That's what I love, absolutely love about this city. You know, to be a New York parent and you're like, oh, your kids are on the subway. I'll see them when they get home. You know, I think, you know, other the rest of the country can't really understand that, you know, and I think it's I think it's really interesting and amazing about that's another beautiful thing of the city. Yeah, I absolutely love raising kids in New York City. I think it is so special. I mean, they just have opportunities I never had. You know, once I was older growing up, it was like, we moved and everything was car dependent.

20:38You had to drive everywhere, you know, until you get your license, you're totally dependent on your parents or on friends. Yeah. So my kids just, you know, my daughter, she goes to a shazat school in Brooklyn. So she has friends who live all over the city, the Bronx, Staten Island. You know, they're just hopping on the train to go see each other. They're meeting up in Bryant Park, you know, to hang out. It's just amazing. Here's all these adults who live around the world that are terrified to come to New York and take the train. And then here's these kids taking it every day like it's nothing, which it is nothing.

21:06It's no big deal, you know. So that's a funny lesson. And do you take the train? I always like to ask women specifically, do you take the train? Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, I work right over here south of Canal, so I take the train to work. I take the train everywhere. I mean, honestly, even aside from my job, obviously working the way I do, you know, you kind of got to avoid the cars. Yeah. I hate going in cars around the city. Oh, the traffic. It's so much slower. It's so much slower. A taxi. No, it's too slow. It's too slow. You're watching the money go up and you're like, let me out. I'm going to walk.

21:41It's faster. Yeah. I get car sick. No, I hate it. Yeah. I mostly take the train. I love the bus for shorter trips. I love to take a city bike. I'm a walker. Whenever I can walk, I'll walk. Yeah. I think it's, you know, I haven't driven since I moved here. Oh, wow. You know, almost 15 years ago. And now I'm getting older, time flew, my license is suspended because I didn't realize I had to redo it. But I don't need it. I can go redo it anytime, but I have to start like a 14-year-old and drive with my mom and dad who don't live here. You know what I mean? Things like that. But you know what I mean?

22:14I don't need it. I truly don't need it. And I have a tour business, and I take people on the subway everywhere. I take it on my first day because you can learn it with me. But I also teach people how to utilize the bus, too. It's so easier. You're above ground. I can see the cherry blossoms in Central Park and hop off. You know, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I love the bus for that reason. You're more enmeshed in the city, you know, as you go along. I also think the bus ridership is slightly different. You get a lot more older people because it's more accessible. You know, so many subway stations, if you have a walker or a wheelchair, you can't use.

22:47So I always kind of like, you know, sitting on the bus and seeing, especially in the Upper West Side, maybe. You know, the older ladies come on with their walker and that's how they can get around. So I love the bus. I love that too. You know, I want to pivot real quick to the trash on the streets. You know, that can be a problem. How do you feel about that? You know, with the people, you know, open streets, people walking through and everything. Yeah. Trying to. Yeah. Well, I don't know what it was like in Iowa, but I, you know, I mean, especially when I lived in Chicago, they have alleys. Like, you never saw trash.

23:19You know, you put the trash in the dumpster in the alley. The garbage truck came through. When I first moved to New York, I was baffled, you know, that we could just live with these huge mountains of garbage on the sidewalks all the time. I understand it, you know, logistically, it's challenging for sure. But we have been advocating for for many years and supportive of the city's efforts to containerize trash. Again, even that, though, like I can acknowledge it's very complicated. You know, when you talk about a very dense neighborhood and big buildings, they produce a lot of trash. You know, but I'm excited to see the city starting to pilot the trash containers in the curb lane.

23:58And something we talk a lot about at Open Plans is the use of that curb lane. So, you know, what some people might think of as the parking lane, you know, where mostly in New York City, it's just cars parked and mostly it's cars parked for free. So three million free on street parking spaces in New York City. and when you think about it you know if you said I've got a lot of extra stuff it's taken up a lot of room in my apartment I'm going to get a little storage locker and put it in the curb and keep my stuff there for free no you cannot do that the only piece of personal property you can store on the street is a car lots of people don't have cars so yeah right me too yeah so it's like yeah so it's public space that's not being used for the public good Right.