New Yorkers Celebrate Pride On the High Line! -With Alan van Capelle

27:25Interesting. I think it was sort of like, oh. And this is New York City? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So to me that, yeah, in my mind, I just think that would just be how it is. A natural, and then the other misconception is that, you know, there are kids with, you know, same-sex parents all over the city, and the reality is that there isn't. There isn't. It's still relatively really small group of people. Yeah. It's still really small. and then they're like, oh, you should know these people. And I'm like, oh, great, but they have like a two-year-old and our kids are 14. And so I'm like, they have nothing in common with each other.

27:58Right, exactly. I just never really thought about that. You know, I just think just, you know, New York City in general, I would think everybody was just, I don't know, just everybody's cohesively working together, you know, melding together and doing whatever, you know. Yeah, I think it happens in pockets. but it's not a uniform thing. And by the way, parenting, so humbling. Like I have the ego the size of Costco. You could be brought down like 12 pegs in like five seconds by like kids. They're just, you know, I have my 12 year olds just could find a loophole argument in everything. I'm either going to have to work for him when I get older or pull him out of a white collar, you know, prison.

28:43Like, but one of those two things I think, you know, could be happening. And my older one is just, you know, he's there's the kids, I think, are just so much smarter than I was when I was their age. I was like a dumb kid. I was just like, oh, like and they're like, let me tell you about how combustion works. And I'm like, oh, or they're doing math and I'm running in to the bathroom with my phone to YouTube how to do it. Yeah. And thinking I'm being very quiet about it, but it's like not so quiet about it. They can hear that. They can totally hear the thing. And then when I come out, they're like, well, did YouTube tell you how to do the math work yet?

29:20I was like, okay, there you go. I'm sure a lot of parents do that, though. You know, I mean, you know, I just wish I had a kid so I could say with my phone, just fix my phone. Just fix it. Fix my computer. Totally. Exactly. Tech support. Tech support. Yes. You know, and I have, thank God for ChatGBT now because now I'm taking pictures of my computer, what screen I'm on, and it's walking me through it. It takes me some time and stuff. But I mean. that's that's so every step i'm taking a picture and chat chat chimpity is like yeah that's right that's right oh you got to go do this well i have to say every time i have like like a tough day with the kids or like a morning or like something happens i could go for a walk on the high line and literally my shoulders come down like almost instantaneously there is something about the high line that i don't care what mood you're in it just just brings peace to you makes you happy bring you joy it's so beautiful and you don't have to purchase anything you don't have to perform nothing performative about it you could be social or you could be solitary you could you know just bring a book and instead of just being alone in your apartment you could read on a bench and people watch yeah and you know i'll bring my laptop out and do work out on the sun deck of the high line yeah and just take a call or a zoom and watch people go by yeah well i walk it often and I have a tour business too.

30:41So I, people love to walk the Highland. It's one of their favorite things to do. Um, I walk through, I do live videos on it all the time. I, it's just so peaceful and showing. And I like to discuss a little bit about the Highland that Richard also taught me too, you know, about how the soil is really not that 18 inches. Yes. It's fascinating. 18 inches and windy up there. Trees and all those. Right. And then you have to think through like, what are these conditions and how does a garden like this thrive? We just held our first plant sale on the Highland. We're going to do another one in the fall.

31:10And we just did it. And 750 people came to the plant sale. And we sold, you know, 1 ,300 plants that we propagated from existing plants on the High Line. That's amazing. And so somebody was like, oh my God, this is like gold. Because you can't buy this at a nursery, but you're getting it on the High Line. And people got a chance to take them home and to meet our horticulturalists and hear how you talk about them. And I always think the horticulturalists, you know, are the first curators of the Highline. Because, you know, we do have a collection. It's a living collection. And Richard and his team really tend to it.

31:48But for me, it's kind of amazing. Do you know the other cool part about this job? What? Is that I don't have to be an expert in anything. Like, I love art, but I couldn't tell you who an artist was. When I look at a piece of art, I could just tell you if I feel something. Right. But I don't really need to know that because I have Tachilia Alamani and her curatorial team. And that's like taking a graduate class in contemporary art. And I love gardening, but like as a hobby. But I get to learn about how to really do it and do it well, because I have a whole team of horticulturalists who are there.

32:20I was going to say that. And I love the built environment. And I love thinking about how we interact with the buildings around us, right? But I'm not an architect by training or an urban planner, but I get to work with some people who are. and i and you know and so you know i guess maybe like i really am just like miss america and i'm just like basically just like cutting ribbons and stuff maybe like everybody else is doing this and i'm just like saying welcome and that's the thing but i love it i kind of say it's really great the highline yeah i mean i love that all the dreams of a million girls who are more than pretty may come true on the highline city you know i don't know i love it that's so funny so um Let's jump into real quick.

33:04I want to discuss marriage equality and what an important part you play with that, play in that too. Go ahead. I mean, I think for me that professionally, there'll never be anything more important to me that I've done than passing, than helping to pass that bill and helping to draft it and helping get it done. The night that it passed the New York State Assembly for the very first time, I remember coming back to a hotel that I was staying at in downtown Albany. Can I ask you what year this is? The early 2006-ish, 2007-ish. And it was the hotel was called 74 State. And there was a bar up there and there was a piano in the bar.

33:47And when I walked up into the room and it was, you know, past midnight because they took the vote super late and it was thunderstorming and the lights were flickering. The piano player played New York, New York when we came in. And it was no longer a question of if it was going to happen, but when it was going to happen. And I think people believe that marriage just happened, but it was a 10 year effort to get it done. And how we did it was we did, I think, a few things really well. One, we got the legislature to start passing LGBTQ bills that had nothing to do with marriage, like a bill to bury your partner if they die, because we actually didn't have the right to do that because we weren't next to make a medical decision for our partner when they were sick.

34:33We didn't have the right to do that. So we passed all of these small. Some families wouldn't allow even their partners. Oh, I know the bill about burial happened because it was a woman who passed away. She was with her partner for 20 some odd years, the partner had cancer. She dies. And then her parents who had been estranged from her for 20 some odd years came in, took the body. To this day, they still don't know where she's buried. And I got to call that parent up and say a Republican state Senate, a Republican governor and a Democratic assembly thought what you did was so disgusting. They actually passed a bill to stop anybody else from doing it ever again.

35:07And so we passed that bill. And then at the same time, we also said, who are the most important actors in the state capitol? Business leaders, people of faith, and labor unions. And if we could either win these folks over or neutralize them, then we win. because what an elected official who are inherently scared people of losing at the ballot box, what they want to understand is when I go back home to my district, am I getting yelled at at the union hall? Am I getting yelled at or spoken about badly from the pulpit on Sunday? Right. And will people in business leaders say it's bad for business.

35:48And if you could win those folks over, then you win. And we built these massive campaigns to organize those groups of people. So by the time marriage equality got done, there were over 3 million New Yorkers in labor unions who were supporting marriage equality. We had the biggest banks on Wall Street and communication firms and whatnot, all in favor of marriage equality. And every state Senate district in the state had at least five congregations and clergy across every faith denomination that were supportive of marriage equality. So we had created this scaffolding to allow there to be safety for elected officials to do what they should have done anyway.

36:28And this is for the state of New York. For the state of New York. And so this is what year? This is in the late 2000s, early 2000s. So like eight, nine, 10, 11. Which led up then to nationwide marriage equality. And did you play a part in that too? I mean, to the extent that - Because obviously you were a huge part of it in New York State. Yeah. And what I think, I think New York itself played a big role in what happened because the Supreme Court doesn't make decisions unless there's enough of a groundswell. And we call those engine states. Like when, when the big engines do it, when California does it and New York does it and enough Americans live in areas that have this and the sky hasn't fallen.

37:11then the court feels like there's enough ability to pass this because there's enough social support for this that it's not going to like, you know, fall like a lead balloon. And so I was really pleased. And I think the, you know, Governor Andrew Cuomo, who I know a lot of people have lots of feelings about, but gets an enormous amount of credit for getting it done. And I think he oftentimes gets overlooked for that. And I think there are a lot of elected officials, particularly in communities of color, who were there for us early and who took votes when it wasn't popular to do so. Today, elected officials, you know, people forget.

37:46Years ago, even when I started working for the Pride Agenda, people didn't even want an endorsement from us publicly. They wanted our money, but they didn't want our endorsement because they were nervous about what it would take. And so we didn't even get invited into rooms. And so the landscape has shifted. And now what I try to preach, I call it like my gay gospel, which is like, I think elected officials think of gay folks as an ATM machine. And they come to us and they want our money. And we hand it out as though everybody has the pin. But not for nothing, what have you done? You shouldn't get our money unless we have a list of asks for you.

38:31So if LGBT health and human service organizations across New York state are still chronically underfunded and our health needs are not being met in our institutions, then we should be asking for a large financial number to make sure that our community can get the health access that we deserve. And we shouldn't give you any support unless you get that for us. If someone's trying to roll back, you know, our rights, if hate crimes are up, I want to know, I don't want you to come to my apartment and tell me you're with me. I want you to actually do something substantively to demonstrate that you're with me.

39:08And so I just think the bar has gotten too low for us supporting elected officials as a community. Well, where are we today then? Are we solid in where we are with gay marriage? Are we, is there a risk of things going backwards or are we going backwards? Like where do you see this today and in the future? Yeah, I think we should have, I think we have a lot to be worried about. I do. And I'm not a hyperbolic guy and I'm not a sky is falling guy. In fact, you know, when Matt proposed to me, he wrote me eight notes and one of the notes thanked me for always seeing the glass half full. So I'm a half full guy, but I am nervous because, you know, we have a Congress that is not currently a check on the president.

39:48We have a Supreme Court that seems to be more activist than any court that we've had and not in any sort of a good way for us. And there is a real concerted attempt. And the people who don't like us are really smart. They're well organized. They're well funded. And we have to do a better job of organizing our community and making them feel not as safe as they may think that they are. Because any right that we've won can get rolled back. And we want to make sure that that doesn't happen. And, you know, and just for folks who thought like, you know, Roe v. Wade was never going to get rolled back.

40:26And now we're living several years now with that there. That's a big deal. Well, you know, I think we've learned, you know, you know, I think both of us been kind of the same age, you know, we saw progression, you know, moving forward, you know, with, with, you know, gay rights and Roe v. Wade gay rights. And now things are being rolled back. Right. But some of this we're doing to ourselves, I think, too. You think so? Yeah. Because I think we've stopped having conversations with people we don't agree with. And I think it's really important for us to sit and talk to people, make an intentional point.

41:01I'm guilty of that. To talk to people who we don't. Yep. I think it's because it's comfortable. But I want to know, like every night in Albany when I was lobbying for marriage equality, Every night I'd have dinner with people who said terrible things about us and who voted against us. And my friends would say, I don't understand why you're having dinner with them. They hate you. And I said, right, but I want to know why. And I want to know what's behind that. Because if I can understand that and unpack that, then I can try to figure out how to make an argument. And what people don't understand that there's a heads and a hearts component to it.

41:33The head is like the data and the intelligence, like about the statistical data about why we need to be protected. The heartstrings are something that only you and I are going to get if we get to spend time with each other And you know what, even if you don't vote for me, how I want you to vote for me, or the thing that I care about You will not talk badly about me when that issue is debated I won't say the name of the person, we'll call them John But there's a member of the city council, John, who when he was in the city council he was very religious and every time a gay rights vote took place he got up to go to the bathroom because I was his friend and he couldn't vote against me but he also couldn't vote for it so he would just pick up and he would go to the bathroom that's relational right and so that's for me and so what's John's last name but young people today and I feel like a lot of them And we're sort of like, go F yourself.

42:36You know, you're terrible. You're awful. You're this. And I don't want to have anything to do with you. And I'm like, don't this keyboard activism is an activism. Well, that's what social media has done to us. You know, and I'm guilty of that too, you know, and plus I'm getting older and I'm tired and get off my lawn, you know what I mean? But I don't know, you know, I mean, I've, you know, I have stepped up, you know, in my twenties and thirties and marched in, you know, gone to DC and, and did what I thought I could do to be a part of it. But like I said, I'm guilty of, I'm tired of talking about it.

43:12Well, that's the other thing too. But we can't stop talking about it. Because when we do, then we get complacent. And what I'm hoping is that this next generation whose job it is, because I feel like - I'm not tired of talking about it. Tired of explaining it. Explaining, totally. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. But my thought is, look, we stood on other people's shoulders. We've done our bit. There's this other generation now after us. My hope is that they spend some time asking people instead of yelling at them or talking to them, talking with them and saying, why do you think the way that you think? How did you get that opinion?

43:47Let me share a little bit about my life with you. We get so upset if somebody uses the wrong pronoun and what's it called? And we offer no grace whatsoever for people to make mistakes. And so then we lose potential allies because people would rather not engage with us and fear that they're going to make a mistake. I think we have to be a lot more forgiving with people and to say, hey, I'm going to meet you where you are. And I'm not going to demand that you're here before I start engaging with you. I think that's provocative to a lot of people. But for me, I think I have found it the most effective way to win legislatively and politically you know what i didn't realize i needed to hear this because i i didn't expect this from this podcast why because i i have shut down and i've stopped talking about it or debating people or arguing because i'm tired talking about it but it we can't be tired we have to keep talking yeah and but you don't have to necessarily yeah no of Of course.

44:52And by the way, it's totally fine. I'm tired a lot about it also. And so I think I sometimes hide behind my kids and say, well, actually the best gay thing I can do right now is to go and just be a good dad to my kids and model that. But you know what's even weirder? I still think about it. That kid who was masking or closeted still comes out every once in a while right before, like when we go out to dinner, we travel a lot with our kids. Our kids, we make sure super well-dressed when we go anyplace and super well-behaved because everybody looks when you walk into a restaurant, particularly not in New York.

45:30Who are these two guys? What are their relationships to the kids? How are they interacting with the kids? And what happens is they start looking. First, they start looking at you. Then they whisper to the people at their table. Then they look over at you. And inevitably, they know that they've been staring too long. So somebody comes over when they're getting up to leave and they go, you have lovely children. And it's a thing, but it's because they've been staring at us for the last hour and wondering like, oh, they're gay parents. And I tell my kids, the reality is you got to behave in the restaurant because people are looking at us because they don't see families like us.

46:06And that's a different sort of pressure. And just like in the civil rights movement, young men and women who sat in those lunch counters wore suits and ties and pretty dresses because it was important about how you look. I believe that it's also important for the next generation of people, for people that it will be easier for the next generation of gay parents when people get used to seeing gay parents, which puts an extra responsibility on those of us with older kids right now. It's also amazing for someone who's young, who's LGBTQ and they see you and your husband with their children and they're like, wow, that's, they're probably, maybe they can't talk about it with their family yet or they're not out yet, but that gives them hope that you guys inspire them.

46:51Well, look, when I was growing up, when we were in third grade, my twin sister's third grade teacher told my mom during the parent teacher conference that he, and his name was Mr. Harding. And I just want to call his name into the room because he was a very special guy and said that he had this gay cancer that nobody knew what it was and that his parents had disowned him. And my mother ended up spending like an hour and a half with him. And that by fourth grade, he was dead. So he passed away the summer between our third and fourth grade year. So I grew up closeted thinking if I come out, I'm either dying early or my family's walking away from me.

47:29Every morning I wake up, I think to myself, true story, I look at Matt because I get up first. I look up. I say thank you to God. And then I think to myself, I've been with someone for 24 years. It's Matt. We have two kids, which I never thought was possible. I thought being gay meant you couldn't have kids. Matt works as a chief legal officer at a financial services firm. I remember the New Yorker magazine or the New York magazine cover where it said the pink ceiling for Wall Street. where you couldn't go a certain level if you were gay, because you had to be in the closet. And I get to run the high line, you know, here.

48:12That is not what I thought in Comac my life would be. Wow. Because I thought that would be impossible. So the arc of the universe is long. It does bend towards justice. But this pride, I hope people remember, that it doesn't bend on its own. It bends because people like you and me make it bend and force it to bend. And as much as it bends, it wants to snap back. Our job is to keep pushing forward. Right. Even a little bit. Just stops it from snapping back. Wow. You're a very good speaker. Very inspiring. If I'm passionate about it, ask me about combustion engines and you won't find this passion.

49:00no i this is really interesting this is this is really good really good conversation yeah i i love that you're here and talking and you know i can feel your passion about what you do it's amazing in your family and everything and what you do to help make other people's lives better you know so well thanks well this is going to be a big fight you know that we're in for the next several years and people are going to get tired and i would just say when you need a respite you know make the high line not a place that you just go to when your family comes to town make it a place that you go to when you just need to sort of you know pull yourself back together again this year there's more activities uh for pride month than the last few years correct yeah we usually had just done um so a project with the generations project right they did gay storytelling and this year we decided let's go do this big first of all i want you know queer people of color to feel like the Highline's a place for them too, which is why we're partnering with Zesty World, which is a party platform that really brings the party now to the Highline, but it has a big following in a community.

50:02I like the name of it. Me too. I know it feels spicy. So I was like, that's going to be fun. And then, and again, all everything you can find on our website. But then also these piano bar nights, I just think if they were, and a real shout out to Steinway, who gave us the piano and to the Schubert organization that's paying for it. and to Lance Horn at Club Coming, who's producing our nights for us. So just like really fun. There's nothing more serious. There's nothing more to it except it's fun. Yeah. Like that's it. Love it. That's the end of the enterprise. Good. That's what I love. Five question.

50:38What's your favorite New York neighborhood, my friend? My favorite New York neighborhood is... It's hard to choose. It's like picking from your children. I think the prettiest neighborhood in New York is the West Village. I was just wondering if you were going to say that. It's the West Village. I think the best people watching in New York and just dynamic, what people are wearing, street clothing is the Lower East Side, which is where I live. And the hottest guys are the walking on the, running over the Williamsburg Bridge. I mean, they're just, it's like the best eye candy. That's so funny. I don't think I've ever really been on that.

51:20I walk it once a week, back and forth. Yeah. And it's just like, it's just great. It's great eye candy. Yeah. That's hilarious. I love it. Favorite NYC restaurant? I know it's a toughie. Oh, wow. I'm going to get like in trouble a lot. But I think, I love right now Ernesto's. I think I go in waves. But right now I'm loving Ernesto's, which is on East Broadway and Jefferson Street on the Lower East Side which is a Basque restaurant and it's really good it's named Ernesto's Ernest Hemingway oh no you have to Ernest Hemingway and it has like the most delicious pinchos and croquettes and it's really delicious now I'm hungry yeah favorite NYC view the view where do you go for the best views in New York City oh I think the High Line by far by far hey what's your favorite section like do you have a favorite section I had to tell you mine yeah tell me um i like i like well there's construction there right now right where the cars and everything are but it's like midway and you're looking south and it's like the grassy area oh yeah looking towards the lantern building looking toward the isn't that pretty and the sculptures come up so and the and everything grows so lush it's right in that area by the lantern house building by the way also great people watching because the people who i know this one guy's schedule backwards and forwards because i can look into his apartment window all the time oh yeah and his girlfriend goes to work or wife i don't know what she is and he must work at home but i can watch him play his video games um i think and then he takes a nap around midday and then about four o 'clock he starts cleaning everything up because she must be coming home later in the thing but it's hilarious he's been doing it for years wait till he hears this podcast yeah i think i think the my favorite part uh uh on the high line right now is the area around the plinth um because we have um uh uh twan's uh the beautiful uh buddha statue exactly that's there which is absolutely spectacular i love it it's beautiful yep uh favorite hidden gem most tourists don't know about um is nikki tesla's apartment um which is in the basement of the new yorker hotel he spent his last few years there and there's an exhibit there's an exhibit with his art of articles from that he owned.

53:38And he lived his last lives at the New York, last years in the New Yorker hotel. And you could go and it's open to the public and nobody knows about it. I had no idea. And lastly, most New York thing you've done recently? I went with 19 people to see the Mets versus the Marlins on Saturday. And we took our nieces, all of whom now have graduated college. So like, and there are significant others and our boys. And we went to see a Mets game. That's pretty cool. At City Field. How do you feel about the Knicks fever right now in the city? I am not a basketball fan, but I have gotten into the fever.

54:14So I stayed up late and watched the game, and I'm glad I did. Very cool. Because my heart started to sink a little bit, and I was like, oh. And then I was really happy. I just love how the city's going nuts. Yeah, I mean, think about the summer, by the way. The summer's going to be pretty great, right? We're going to have, like, the Knicks are in the playoffs. FIFA is coming here for the World Cup. 250th anniversary sail tall ships and Macy's is doing fireworks both on the East River and the Hudson River. Like kind of like a pretty good New York is it's our year this year. It's our year this year.

54:45I think this is like a really good year for us. I agree. We need it. What do you think about Mom Domi? I think he has really big ambitious plans and I think and I think affordability is the right issue to be thinking about. And and my hope is that he builds a large enough tent and gets everybody in that tent rowing in the same direction because the problems we face in the city are so big that no one person or group of people is going to be able to solve them on their own. We need everybody. Nicely said. Really nicely said. I like that. So, Alan, before we let you go, we here at the New Yorkers podcast want to know what it means to you, Alan Van Capel to be a New Yorker?

55:29I think to be a New Yorker, to me, feels like the greatest gift that I could have. Because I think New York is not a place, it's an idea. And that idea is constantly changing and being shaped and challenged. And to live in a place that's as dynamic as New York is to be able to walk down the street to have a conversation with somebody who has done something interesting at any moment. It's to reimagine how you're thinking about something. You could think about something one way for years and suddenly be exposed to different ideas or people or art or culture. And there's an energy here that I think just keeps us young.

56:13And I was saying right before we started this podcast that I feel like I'm 51, but I feel like my parents looked so much older at 51 than we look in our 50s. And I think it's because they didn't live in the city. I think people who live in the city are younger. We're walking more. We're not in our cars. We're seeing each other. Yeah. And I'm excited to retire here. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a great place to grow old. Mm-hmm. Great answers. Well, you know, it's so real funny, like the Golden Girls. Yeah. You know, they're like younger than us. They were younger than us. And they look so old back then, but they really, they were all in, they were all 50.

56:51Yeah. I think in that thing. Wow. Isn't that crazy? Well, you're the best. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Let's do this again. I hope so. You know, hop on the podcast again, truly. I would love it. And chat and talk about, you know, fun stuff and all this stuff that needs to be talked about. Great. Thank you for joining us today for this week's episode of the New Yorkers podcast, Alan. Why don't you let everyone know where they can find you on social media? They can find us on social media at thehighline.org. Nice. And do you know if there's a Facebook or Instagram? If not, I think it's just the Highline, right?

57:25Highline NYC. Awesome. Yep. Once again, I'm your host, Kelly Kopp, also known as New York City Kopp, all across my social media. And please like and subscribe to the New Yorkers podcast. And you can follow the New Yorkers on social media at the New Yorkers podcast. You can leave a rating or a comment to let us know how you're enjoying the show. We read through all your comments and DMs, so please, we would love to hear from you. Thank you, Terry, Mary Woolwine, and Carol Ann Wildly. And Carol Ann and Kevin, I have done tours with, and they are amazing. I love them. But I love everyone, but just to let you know.

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