*Re-Air* Creating Modern New York -With Madelyn Wils

6:39Kelly:And you just have to continue and press your case.

6:44Madelyn Wils:Right.

6:45Kelly:I had to be smarter than anybody. I had to have more information than anyone. I had to show them that I was there to do business and nothing else.

6:53Madelyn Wils:Right. I love your drive. inspiring, you know, to me and I'm sure other, you know, women, but I mean, as a man, I'm super inspired by your strength in general.

7:05Kelly:Thank you.

7:06Madelyn Wils:Then you went into TV production.

7:08Kelly:I went to TV production. I was hired by Time Inc. who owned HBO at the time. You know, it's, it's a chess game now. Everybody's buys, sells companies. So at that time, uh, Time Incorporated had a television production arm. We did a lot of BBC of the Masterpiece Theaters, if you remember those, but we did a lot of television syndication, worked for HBO. So I did some made-for-TV movies there. I did some game shows. And then I was hired by the Washington Post Company, which was at the time the most important television company at that time. And I sold the first show to cable television. I was the first woman executive vice president of a television company.

8:04Kelly:So I had broken some of the glass ceilings. It was hard at the time because, frankly, even though I had that position and I still had to deal with a lot of negativity towards the fact, how did you get there? You're too pretty. You're, you know, what did you do? And like, so it was a constant having to show people that I belong. But I got a lot done. And then I got married and I went on to open my own television production company. Wow, good for you. I did the first parenting show on Lifetime Television. I did that for four years. I did some syndication work. I sold a pilot for a drama series to Paramount and CBS, but the president of CBS got fired, so it never went on.

9:10Kelly:What was the show about? It was the first show about forensic medicine. It was called Married to Murder. It was about a cop and a scientist and how they married, solved murders together. But this was before there were any of those forensic shows.

9:34Madelyn Wils:Like the ID Discovery Channel type stuff.

9:37Kelly:Yeah, but that's what happens. You're a trailblazer.

9:41Madelyn Wils:This is fascinating.

9:43Kelly:I don't really talk about that time in my life anymore. but it's truly fascinating I hope Claire knows about it but did you

9:51Madelyn Wils:so you were a television producer I don't want to am I jumping ahead too far for Larry King and Charlie Rose yes I put Larry King

9:59Kelly:on the and Charlie Rose on the air so now really see how old I am then and yeah Jay

10:08Madelyn Wils:Jay do you know what these people are I've heard of them I've heard of them this is what makes me sad when I ask him I worked

10:13Kelly:I worked with David Susskind oh wow He was a major producer at the time, director. So that was interesting.

10:23Madelyn Wils:How was it like working with Larry King?

10:26Kelly:Larry was very nice, but he was physically extremely awkward. We had to get him a body coach to teach him how to actually walk onto a set. Really? Because he was in such bad physical shape. and you know i had to you know fix his shirt you know his jacket all the time it was interesting to me maybe he went on to be a you know big hit a lot of women but he was you know

11:01Madelyn Wils:he was a he needed to be put together wow that's really interesting but he was a very nice man oh

11:07Kelly:Nice to hear. Interesting.

11:08Madelyn Wils:Charlie Rose.

11:09Kelly:Charlie Rose. I would say that Charlie, a very interesting character.

11:18Kelly:Charlie liked women. At the time that I met him, he and his wife just split up. I don't think he ever got married after that. But super intelligent.

11:31Madelyn Wils:Oh, nice.

11:32Kelly:And read all the books before the shows. never always knew exactly what he was doing. Not the funniest guy in the world. I mean, when he tried to be like, I'll remember we had Donny Osmond on the show. Oh, that's cool. And he said, so, Donny, tell me the difference between you and Marie. And Donny said, well, Charlie, I'm a boy and she's a girl. And he was like, he didn't know what to say.

12:05Madelyn Wils:That's exactly what the first thought I had in my head, how I would answer the question.

12:09Kelly:He's a more serious, but also just really smart, really smart man.

12:16Madelyn Wils:And so at this time, were you living in Tribeca? Because tell us about, so you started basically, in a sense, your adult life in Tribeca. Is that from what I understand?

12:27Kelly:Yeah, I lived on West 70th Street. I've been married 42 years. I met my husband. He was a Tribeca at the time. And, you know, it was called the Washington Market, just had started being called by Madison Avenue Tribeca. And my husband had the last food business on Dwayne Street because it used to be the Washington Market. He had all these food businesses down there and he didn't want to move. He just kept it there until it could not be there anymore. So we've lived in the same place now. He's lived there longer. He was living there in a raw loft 50 years ago. And I moved in 40 years ago, 40 years ago, right before the birth of my first son.

13:21Madelyn Wils:Wow. So you've been in Tribeca, let's say 40 years. Yeah, I can add really well, can I? Yes. And then you were a community volunteer, correct? And that's, is this at the same time you're working in television as well?

13:37Kelly:It was interesting because I was still in television. Someone who represented small businesses downtown asked me if I would be on the community board to represent small businesses because nobody was really representing. You're representing residents or big businesses, but no one was really representing small businesses. So I applied. I got put on the community board. I found it very interesting. They were just building the northern part of Battery Park City at the time. It wasn't really my background, but I got very engaged with civics.

14:20Madelyn Wils:Right.

14:20Kelly:And I learned that you could get a lot done if you know how to advocate properly. And I learned how to do that. So as time went on, I became the chair of the Tribeca Committee, the Parks Committee. I led a rezoning of Tribeca. We came up with a new zone for contextual zoning called C-62A, and we got city planning to pass it. And I got involved in the landmarking of the whole area. And I was chosen to chair an advisory committee to get all the park system and Battery Park City built. So it became very interesting to me. People thought I was a landscape architect. And I wasn't. When I left the community board, the president of the Ballery Park City wrote me a letter and said, I was so pleased to have a landscape architect of your caliber on the board.

15:34Kelly:I said, thanks, Tim. But, you know, I'm a television producer. but okay but you know i learned to build sets i learned right have a an eye for design uh so i mean that was so my metamorphosis has a background to it because what i find very interesting is as i got much more interested in land use and building and transforming I could take my television production skills as an executive producer. I had to build sets. I had to, you know, design. I had to put it together. I had, you know, 50, 100 people working for me always. Wow. So I could take those skills and use them to negotiate a deal with a developer or think about building something.

16:35Kelly:And what I learned is that I started to really take to the public realm. I started to really, in the middle of the night, some parents and I went to PS 234 downtown, which did not have a playground. And we broke in, broke the lock.

16:59Madelyn Wils:I read that you did that and I loved it.

17:01Kelly:Took it over and put a new lock on it. These are the things you could do in the 80s and not get arrested for.

17:10Madelyn Wils:When I read this, I loved it. And guess what happened?

17:13Kelly:We got that playground.

17:15Madelyn Wils:Yep.

17:16Kelly:And a dog run.

17:18Madelyn Wils:Yep. As a protest? Or how did you get the playground?

17:23Kelly:The school did not have enough room for a playground. And it was an elementary school. What do kids do if you don't have a playground? So there was an empty lot next to it, right next to it, that the city owned, but they weren't going to give it to the school. So we took it. You just went and did it. We did it.

17:44Madelyn Wils:What was the decision? You just spearheaded this decision to just -

17:48Kelly:There were three of us.

17:49Madelyn Wils:Yep.

17:51Kelly:And we just said, let's do it. Let's just take it and see what happens. I love your drive.

17:55Madelyn Wils:You have such an amazing drive and passion, you know, for what you do in the city to make it better. It's incredible, you know, and it's really admirable. You're inspiring me to. Thank you. To, you know, to, you know, go cut some chains and do some. I think you'd get arrested for that now.

18:14Kelly:I mean, that was still the time where things were just a little not so serious.

18:21Madelyn Wils:It's fascinating, though. So Madeline, can you tell us about 9-11 and the aftermath of what happened? Yeah.

18:31Kelly:So, well, what happened is that I was the chair of the community board in 2000 and 9-11 happened. And I was outside by the PS 234 taking my child to school and also giving out leaflets for someone who was running for borough president. Right. And that's three blocks north of the World Trade Center. So I saw it all came down. I was in the middle of it. I ran for four days, took my kids. My husband was in all the bizarre places, Las Vegas at the time. I tried to retrieve all three of my kids, which was very hard. I got two of them. One had to stay in Brooklyn for four years. But I came back to the city after four days.

19:32Kelly:I ran and someone took me, took us in.

19:36Madelyn Wils:Right.

19:37Kelly:Because I had this, I had this feeling that if I didn't come back and help with this mess, who would? Yeah. So I came back. We put together a meeting in the Canal Street playground at the time to see who was there, what people needed. We had the elected officials there.

20:05Madelyn Wils:I started asking this. Was this right within a week of 9-11? Five days later. Five days later, yeah. Yeah.

20:11Kelly:People couldn't get into their apartments. Their pets were missing. There didn't know when knew if their houses, apartments were still intact. The air was terrible. Nobody knew what to do.

20:29Madelyn Wils:Right.

20:30Kelly:And there was no direction from the city. So we had to take it upon ourselves. So we put together a daily meeting with all the elected officials. Rudy Giuliani had his OEM team at Pier 94. We got one chance a day to put all our questions in there. Okay, fast forward. Things are not going well. Rudy Giuliani cares about the victims and victims' families. You couldn't care less about the people who were stuck with no electric, no water, no phones. You couldn't care about the older people who couldn't get their medicine. You couldn't care about anybody. So we broke up. We knocked on doors. We tried to help people.

21:20Kelly:We brought them water. They needed medicine. There were no deliveries downtown. Everything was shut below Houston Street. So you couldn't get any food or water. You couldn't get anything. Someone couldn't get their medicine. So it was a very bad time because there was nobody working for us. So we had to take it into our own hands, basically. And that's what we did. I put together all these scientists because I thought this air is bad. You couldn't breathe it. It stunk. Got my council member at the time. These scientists gathered at my house at midnight. This is two weeks later. And the council member used her credentials to get into the red zone, got them all into the red zone.

22:13Kelly:We had identified three apartments by the World Trade Center, one in Battery Park City, one in Fideye, and one right north in Tribeca. and we got them into the apartments. They took the samples. And as you suspect, so the interesting part here was that when we had asked Rudy Giuliani for help, he said, well, we'll let you test, but the results have to come to us, not you. And we said no.

22:47Madelyn Wils:Right. So New Jersey Department of Health sent us a truck.

22:54Kelly:because knew one of the scientists. Scientists came from the Midwest, from Pennsylvania, and New Jersey, very educated environmental scientists. As it turned out, you could imagine what was in the air. It was PCBs. It was all sorts of bad stuff. And that kind of forced the issue with the city is, how do we clean our apartments? People were living in there with dust up to their knees.

23:24Madelyn Wils:And no one helped.

23:28Kelly:No one. No one helped. So it was just a bad time. We put together this meeting downtown in where Cipriani's used to be a hotel. Over 2 ,500 people jammed in. I had all the agencies, federal, state, and city there. People wanted to know what to do. And it was just a very bleak time. So anyway, I got appointed by Governor Pataki to be one of the founding members of the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, which I was happy about that I could actually be useful with money and influence where that money went to rebuild Lower Manhattan. I was the chair of the offsite committee. I was on the redevelopment of the World Trade Center site on the committee that picked the architect and the plan.

24:31Kelly:I was on the cultural committee. So I had and I chaired the transportation committee. So I. I was in it. I was in it.

24:44Madelyn Wils:do you you know this is you know i always ask people this i know it's probably a question for you that i mean you were obviously right there when it happened can you tell us your experience of when it you know when 9-11 happened what where were you specifically were you at home were you

25:01Kelly:did you saw everything right there correct i was in front of ps234 if it's okay to talk about for you yes it's still very raw i can only imagine people who come from war zones how it must be for them because this for me is still very raw whatever you're very comfortable no i was standing in front of ps234 after dropping my eight-year-old off and uh i hear this enormous noise i look up i I see this enormous plane. And then I hear gears go, like pulling back up gears. And then the plane, which is no more than 200 feet over my head, starts to go up and then right into one world trade center. And it felt like being in a diehard movie.

25:53Kelly:Just that. Is this real? Is this not real? Am I in a movie? is it was like that first you had to get your bearings right and everybody said oh that was a small plane that was a mistake yeah i remember you know so we all were we're told that was no small you knew it was a huge yeah uh but it was shocking so shocking we all just stood there

26:21Madelyn Wils:did it did it did it process you know did you process that it was deliberate or just what you just couldn't even fathom.

26:28Kelly:I felt it was deliberate. People were saying, oh no, what happened to that small plane? But then the next plane came.

26:37Madelyn Wils:And that was actually a bigger explosion.

26:44Kelly:First was more of an implosion. And the second was much more of an explosion. And then people just started to run. And all havoc broke loose. And we went into school to get the kids into the basement because we didn't know what was going on and um then after an hour or so when the building started to come down we got the kids out right the building and just ran north uh oh my gosh and that's basically what happened terrible and you

27:18Madelyn Wils:know we're in september now just a week and a half away or whatever from the anniversary yes and do you go to the 9-11 memorial?

27:25Kelly:I did for the first 10 years.

27:27Madelyn Wils:Yeah. And then I said, this is enough.

27:30Kelly:And now it's really should be the families. This is really their time.

27:37Madelyn Wils:Understood. Thanks for sharing that with us. That was, you know, I know that's emotional. And so Madeline, after that, that time of, you know, rebuilding after 9-11 in lower Manhattan, where did life take you after that?

27:54Kelly:Well, after, people were telling me that I should run for borough president, that I had made a name, but I was approached by the Tribeca Film Festival, and that blended some of my interest in politics and civics with my interest in film. So I became the president of the Tribeca Film Film Festival, Film Institute. I was to create a bigger not-for-profit platform for the Institute, make it more of a year-round programming. So I worked to do that. I was there for only two and a half years. And then I got a, but it was fun. I mean, I have a lot of great stories, but that's, you know, that's another time.

28:43Madelyn Wils:But, you know, I did a great program in

28:48Kelly:Marrakesh with the king of Morocco and the students at Hunter Film School and I brought them together for two weeks for a course with Marty Scorsese. So, you know, it was very cool.

29:06Madelyn Wils:What's it like to work with him?

29:08Kelly:Very nice man. A little nervous but very nice man. Yes.

29:12Madelyn Wils:Very cool.

29:13Kelly:He's very enjoyable. Good sense of humor.

29:15Madelyn Wils:And a real New Yorker.

29:17Kelly:Oh, nice. Super New Yorker, Little Italy. Grew up in Little Italy.

29:21Madelyn Wils:Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Okay, so then the Tribeca Film Festival.

29:25Kelly:And then I got a call from someone in the Bloomberg administration and said, we have this new job at the Economic Development Corporation. It's executive vice president. We want you to spearhead all our large-scale rezonings. And that was like, wow.

29:45Madelyn Wils:That sounds like a huge job.

29:46Kelly:Yeah. And it was nothing I had ever done. But the person who hired me, Bob Lieber, watched me during my time at LMDC. And what is LMDC? The Lower Manhattan Development Corporation. He watched me with large groups of people get things done. So he called me and he said, I want you to come over here. It wasn't the job interview. It was just like, this is the job I'm thinking about. I'd like you to have it. So that was a total shock to me. A great shock. It was, and that really, because after 9-11, I realized I wanted to do some public good. I just came away with, okay, I've done television enough, but this is more important.

30:44Kelly:So one of the great things at that job was I had all five boroughs. I had the planning department. I had the development department. I had maritime, all the waterways. I created the ferry program. I did all the large-scale rezoning and put the amusement park back in Coney Island.

31:14Madelyn Wils:I love that. Yeah.

31:15Kelly:I did the rezoning, the first rezoning for Willits Point. That was painful. I did Hunter's Point South with all that parkland there. It's so beautiful. The Bronx Greenway, the Staten Island Homeport. I did the ferry program, which we were told would never happen.

31:35Madelyn Wils:The NYC ferry?

31:37Kelly:The NYC ferry. Nice. Yes. One of my favorite things to do. My last day at EDC was launching the East River Ferry program. So I got to be in the middle of a lot of it in all five boroughs. And it was really fascinating. And when I got tired of, oh, and then I took on Seward Park, which had been in a race dispute for 40 years.

32:04Madelyn Wils:Can you explain what that is?

32:05Kelly:Seward Park, which now is Essex Crossing, is that big development at the head of Williamsburg Bridge. Oh, I got you. It were empty parking lots for over 40 years. It was an urban renewal plant, and all the people were, it was torn down. They were told to leave. Properties were condemned. That's on the Manhattan side? It's on the south side, mostly. But of Manhattan, right? It's beautiful.

32:40Madelyn Wils:I was just there. Yes.

32:42Kelly:But it always turned into a war of the Latin community with the Jewish community because they both lived there.

32:54Madelyn Wils:Right.

32:55Kelly:And there just was no peace around this piece of property. But we managed to, working with the community board and really taking it slow, we managed to do a massive rezoning of that area. And now you see. It's incredible. It's all built up.

33:16Madelyn Wils:It's amazing. I mean, you have just every facet of New York City, you have beautified or improved in some way, shape or form. I think that's incredible.

33:27Kelly:Yeah. I did the East River Waterfront, the first, you know, the park area there. Yes. And then I had been on the board from 1998 to 2007, 2005 of the Hudson River Park Trust. Uh, and then I got a call asking me if I'd come back as president, um, that, uh, the park was, uh, only half built. It had no money. Um, they had to figure it out and, uh, it was a big challenge. So I decided to go back to the park that I had always loved. 550 acres, huge. Somehow I figured out not only how to take it out of the red, but to triple its income by building new restaurants, by building new concessions, by really trying to balance commercial with park.

34:36Kelly:because nobody knew that we were self-sustaining. We had no money for maintenance. We weren't getting any money from the city or state, even though it was a state city park. But because it was not a park within the city or state system, we had to manage to get all the revenue and pay for everything. And there was no money to maintain the park.

35:03Madelyn Wils:Unlike Central Park, which is like donations and everything, correct?

35:05Kelly:Donations, plus they do get money from the city as well.

35:09Madelyn Wils:But you did not.

35:10Kelly:We did not get any money from the city except to build it. But at that point, we had no money left, period. So I spent the next 10 years figuring out how to get hundreds of millions of dollars. I got Barry Diller into this deal to build what is now Little Island, 260 million, what Time Magazine called one of the 100 wonders of the world.

35:43Madelyn Wils:Wonderful.

35:44Kelly:I got Google into Pier 57 and RxLR to develop that. it was i did pier 26 did the design for gansford peninsula where we put the beach pier 97 dulce waterside park so i think in the 10 years i was there we built about a billion

36:06Madelyn Wils:dollars worth amazing and everything you've mentioned i've watched built here in new york city and it's incredible.

36:14Kelly:So really what I, uh, and then I left there in 2001, COVID, uh, and I thought I'd retire.

36:26Madelyn Wils:Right.

36:27Kelly:Uh, and then after a year of retiring, I realized that I was not ready to retire. I wasn't at all ready to retire. You had more visions for the city. So then I opened up my own business called Public Realm Strategies. I decided that what I really like doing is building. I like coming up with an idea, getting it built. And then I got a call about Fifth Avenue.

36:59Madelyn Wils:Right.

37:01Kelly:And a couple of people called me and said, listen, there's this idea to take Fifth Avenue and to bring it into the 21st century because economically it's having a harder time now. It was the number one street in the world for so long. Number one revenue maker in the city. And something has to be done. And I thought, oh, well, that's interesting. A lot of people came to me with projects. I said, not so interesting. But this one hit me because I thought, who would not want to keep New York great? New York should be for everyone. But you also have to have, you have to keep on to your history and also keep your great streets great.

37:58Kelly:And what was sad about Fifth Avenue is it's way overcrowded. So I find what's interesting in 1907, in celebration of the cars being made at the time, the street that had just been finished Fifth Avenue in Midtown went all the way through Harlem, but was just completed there. They decided, the Fifth Avenue Association, the city, decided to make it into the United States' first driveway by making the sidewalks narrower and making the roadbed wider by two lanes. So they actually made the sidewalks narrow. Thus, 100 and almost 20 years later, that project was finished, by the way, in 1915. Now we have too many cars, too many buses.

39:02Kelly:And what's happened since 2015 is as it got more crowded and then the city started to put more buses down Fifth Avenue. And then in 2017, they made it into two bus lanes and the avenue saw a 3 % decrease in sales. Why? Not because people don't need buses, but we had so many buses at that point that people did not want to cross the streets. Between the cars and the buses, people felt unsafe. So when we surveyed people, they don't cross east to west. They don't like to cross north to south. And people said they were spending less and less time there. And that's a problem. You know, it's a problem.

39:55Kelly:In 2019, Fifth Avenue accounted for 5 % of jobs and 5 % of income to New York City. Wow. So let's say you don't believe that you should spend any money on Fifth Avenue. You don't believe money should go elsewhere, should go to poorer neighborhoods. You need that revenue from Fifth Avenue so you can build in lower income neighborhoods. People have got to understand there's a balance here.

40:28Madelyn Wils:Right.

40:29Kelly:So for some of us who do believe Fifth Avenue should get a second chance because it does still account for 4 % of revenue and 4 % of jobs. And a lot of those jobs are blue collar jobs. Those are jobs in the service area that are the highest paying service jobs in the city. Why? Because it's in a more expensive area. So you get paid more, you get more tips. It's higher income for people who live in the Bronx, who live in Queens, who live in Brooklyn and Staten Island. they get higher paying jobs. They don't necessarily have to go to college for these jobs. And so you can make a good living on Fifth Avenue without having an MBA, you know, so there are people in the offices, but it's a huge job for the service industry for hotels and retail.

41:28Kelly:So if you want to keep that income and you want to keep New York a great city, you should not give up your number one most important street in the world. You can have it all. You can have Fifth Avenue and then you can have the money you need to build up other communities that also need it. So this is not about, you know, you hear what I hear in the last particularly 10-ish years is that we should not pay attention to one part of the city because this part of the city has never been, never had attention. And the truth is we need to pay attention to all of it because New York has to be a great city for everyone.

42:20Kelly:And that means it not only has to serve people who are less fortunate, but you have to keep it a great city because we need the tourists.

42:32Madelyn Wils:Right.

42:33Kelly:We need all the income that comes into New York because we are the biggest city, the most expensive city, and have the highest budget. And if you want to run this city, you need that money. So it's fascinating.

42:52Madelyn Wils:We need people.

42:53Kelly:People have a lot of small mindedness about all this. So people say, oh, we need a bike lane. We need more buses. We have more buses on Fifth Avenue than any other street in the town. They put now we have 250 deadhead express buses going down and 1300 or more express buses. since 2017, 10 % full. And then when you hear that DOT and the MTA want to put a third bus lane in because traffic is too slow, what I say is get rid of the buses that should not be empty on Fifth Avenue before you think about putting more buses. Keep all the local buses. People use them. But the politics of putting, oh, we'll put more buses here from the Bronx and Staten Island because they're the loudest communities.

43:57Kelly:We don't need those buses, but we're going to put them there anyway because those communities say they need them. Right. And we just don't want to have a fight with them.

44:07Madelyn Wils:Right.

44:07Kelly:But that's not a good enough reason to make our streets overcrowded, overcongested. You need to right-size the buses, and then you need to put them in Queens, in Brooklyn, where you need more buses. Spend that money. Put that money where it's needed. Don't put it down here because politically it's a safer issue. So we don't need more buses down Fifth Avenue, and we don't need a third bus line down Fifth Avenue. We need less buses and more efficient buses, express buses down Fifth Avenue. And then also put them down some other avenues. Why did they all have to be down Fifth Avenue?

44:50Madelyn Wils:Yeah, I walk Fifth Avenue often. When you have the most expensive real estate and you need the stores generate the most revenue of any store around. And it has the highest rent in the world.

45:08Kelly:And it pays the highest taxes in the world. It all works that way.

45:18Madelyn Wils:Well, people need to understand the entire city is interconnected.

45:22Kelly:Exactly. So that.

45:23Madelyn Wils:Exactly.

45:24Kelly:So what's so interesting is that on a Thursday afternoon at four o 'clock on one street on Fifth Avenue. on one block, we have approximately 5 ,600 people. On a Saturday or during the holiday, on one hour, on one block, you can have 23 ,000 people, which is more than you can stuff in Madison Square Garden. Wow. We will have that on one block in one hour. Those sidewalks have the capacity for about 4 ,000 people. And through the years, there has been continued obstructions, bus shelters, signage, vendors. You have to walk around. You have to negotiate how to get from point A to point B. No wonder people don't want to spend more time on the streets.

46:33Kelly:It's so hard to get around. Our city has made it so difficult for people to get around. And pedestrians is the number one transportation mode in Manhattan. It's not buses. It's not bikes.

46:51Madelyn Wils:That's how I get around. So people say, please put a bike lane.

46:57Kelly:You have 148 bikes and you have 5 ,700 people. You need to take care of the people walking. And I appreciate if there were room, if we had more than 100 feet, sure, put a bike lane. But we don't have it. So a bike lane just needs to go on to another avenue. And not because we don't want it. People go, you don't want it. You're an elitist. No, I want people to walk. I agree.

47:31Madelyn Wils:It's the least elitist type of transportation there is.

47:35Kelly:Your feet taking you from point A to point B. We need to make more room for pedestrians in our city.

47:43Madelyn Wils:I completely agree.

47:45Kelly:So the city wanted us to look at renovating from 40th Street to 60th Street, which is called sort of, it's called Upper Fifth, even though it's not the residential portion of Fifth. But that's really where the stores are. And that's where St. Patrick's, the library, Central Park, Grand Army Plaza, you have all these wonderful 19 landmarks just in that little area there, maybe more than 19. And the idea is to narrow the roadbed to three lanes, have one car lane, one and a half bus lanes, the way it really is now. It's two bus lanes, but you also right now get to make a right-hand turn in a car.

48:31Kelly:We're not changing that. You still have your two bus lanes operating in the same manner. But we're reducing it from three car lanes to only one. So it's not like the car people are taking over. No, it's just enough to get some traffic there for people who actually need to go to Fifth Avenue. Right now, we have a lot of people using the avenue just to get north to south. We just want people who want to come to Fifth Avenue. But there's no room for a bike lane, that means. And what we're doing, though, is increasing the sidewalks from 23 feet each to 33 and a half feet each. That was the most. We could have gone to 40 for the amount of people that we have, but we don't have the room to go to 40.

49:23Kelly:So we're going to 33 and a half. We're going to green it with trees. There are barely any trees. We're going to put seeding, plants. We're going to make places for placemaking. There'll be enough room for an outdoor cafe to really elongate the day. Right now, Fifth Avenue closes at 6 p.m. This will allow people to stay on the avenue longer, enjoy it longer. The idea is to not only bring people to Fifth Avenue, but to keep them there. Keep them shopping. Keep them going to all the cultural institutions.

49:59Madelyn Wils:Keep spending money. I'm so sorry. Yeah. So, no, I did also read that they're going to continue like the Art Deco style of architecture throughout the Fifth Avenue, whatever, however they redo it. It could be wrong. I don't know. Something like that.

50:13Kelly:For the buildings, you mean?

50:15Madelyn Wils:Or just in general, just the feel of Fifth Avenue, you know.

50:18Kelly:Oh, yes. So a lot of the details that we're using are, in fact, details from all the historic landmarks. It's amazing. The tree pits will be covered with brass. Brass will be in the seating with an art deco design. Everything has an art deco design in these little details. But then you'll have the planter and the planter walls that will be fairly simple, beautiful plants that will bloom 12 months a year. And this is something that when you beautify a street, a park, a street, the High Line, Brooklyn Bridge Park, whatever it is, people come. If you build it, people come.

51:08Madelyn Wils:True. Field of dreams. Right. Field of green. It's from Bryant Park at 42nd Street, correct?

51:14Kelly:40th Street all the way up to 60th Street.

51:18Madelyn Wils:Up to Central Park right there. Yes.

51:19Kelly:So the design itself is$350 million. There's another 52 right now for new water mains. There'll be a lot more money. The street infrastructure is super old.

51:34Madelyn Wils:Right.

51:35Kelly:And because no one's touched it in 150 years.

51:38Madelyn Wils:Yeah, from 1950.

51:39Kelly:So we have, and even beyond, I mean, the earlier parts started in the 19th century. And then went through probably another 20 years to get to Harlem. But the infrastructure is amongst the oldest in the city. So we're looking now to see the money for this project. A lot of it is going to go towards the infrastructure.

52:05Madelyn Wils:Right.

52:06Kelly:And the infrastructure has to be done no matter what. So it's a really good thing. You're going to tear the street up. You're going to tear it and make it beautiful, not tear it and make it look the same way.

52:16Madelyn Wils:Exactly. You're going to tear it up, make it beautiful above ground, but also update what's below ground. Exactly. So that's amazing. And so this starts when?

52:27Kelly:We believe that the design will be ready in 2028 because right now it's all about underground.

52:34Madelyn Wils:Right. We have the design for above ground, but below ground is really where we have to spend a lot of time and energy with Con Ed, with DEP and Verizon.

52:49Kelly:And it's a mishmash, they call it. We always used to call it in building. It's the spaghetti below.

52:57Madelyn Wils:I'm going to say that now. I love that. The spaghetti is old. It's a perfect phrase.

53:01Kelly:Old stale spaghetti.

53:03Madelyn Wils:I'm going to take that. I'm going to put that in my back pocket now and use that. I love it. I love it. Well, this has been fascinating. We could talk for hours, but we have to go. Is there anything else you want to add quickly that you think? I know you have such an interesting life and so many things to talk about.

53:22Kelly:I just love the city. And I have been really fortunate in being able to touch a lot of it. and see what this transformation has meant for people. When I go to Hudson River Park or East River Waterfront or any of the parks, I had any hand in Coney Island. Right. To see people smile and to watch them enjoy themselves. For me, that's what I get out of all this.

53:57Madelyn Wils:I love that. And also, now when I am all over the city every day, I'll be thinking of you and every place I go to. So you'll be with me. So one last project you want to talk about, Madeline. What is that?

54:11Kelly:I'm working pro bono on a project to build the largest subsidized dance rehearsal studios in New York City. That will be in the old Boys Club on East 10th Street for the Joyce Theater. so we're um we're going to be starting construction in 2026 this is largely funded by the city of new york and uh with lots of funding also from the state and uh and private fundraising and we're going to really do this because in order for new york to stay the dance capital it cannot just be a few of the big companies that have places to rehearse and create their work. We need to find more places that are affordable.

55:00Kelly:And so the Joyce Theater is going to subsidize these studios. There'll be 10 to$25 an hour and, and people will be able to create work and, uh, and make a name for themselves and do work not just in New York City, but then take it all over the world.

55:21Madelyn Wils:I love it. It's amazing what you're doing for all of us New Yorkers. I'm very grateful and thankful for you. You've made this city so beautiful. I love that you, you know, everywhere we go now, we'll be thinking of Madeline. Thank you for being on the show. It's really amazing. Thank you, Kelly. You're amazing. Awesome. So Madeline, before we let you go, we here at the New Yorkers podcast want to know what it means to you, Madeline Wills, to be a New Yorker.

55:50Kelly:I have always felt that New York was the greatest city in the world. And I love the arts and I love culture and I love parks. And I think New York has the best as well as the worst. and the worst makes you want it to be the best. And the best just wants you to keep it the best. It's a challenging time in our city, in our state, in our country, in the world. And I think we all need to be hyper-focused on what is meaningful to us and what is useful to us.

56:40Madelyn Wils:Beautiful. Well said. Madeline, thank you for joining us today for this week's episode of The New Yorker's Podcast. It was really fascinating. Once again, I'm your host, everyone, Kelly Kopp, also known as New York City Kopp across all my social media. Please like and subscribe to The New Yorker's Podcast. And you can follow The New Yorker's on social media at The New Yorker's Podcast. You can leave a rating or a comment to let us know how you are enjoying the show. We read through all your comments and DMs, so please, we would love to hear from you. Thank you Yang, Sandra, and Italian Lion for your kind words on the last episode.

57:19Madelyn Wils:If you want to be featured at the end of an episode, leave a rating on Apple Podcasts or comment on Spotify. And thank you Bill Strickland, Leanne Nell, and Tom Metz for your comments on Facebook. Have a lovely day and we will see you next time. Bye. This is the last stop on this train. Everyone, please leave the train. Thank you for riding with MTA New York City Transit.