Is Trump a Russian asset? Fiona Hill on the President she worked for

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1:03This is a Global Player original podcast. Some people say, is Donald Trump a Russian asset? He actually had a very different risk calculation. He got emboldened. Trump himself is very prone to conspiracy theories. Are you the one who would say to him, I mean, this is batshit? Trump would sometimes pick up on things and you'd realise this is Russian propaganda. He's become a kind of King George. King George was mad, wasn't he? Today, you'll be hearing the unmistakable voice of Fiona Hill. The Durham girl who worked for Donald Trump has been right at the heart of his first administration and has got plenty to tell us about the state of the world.

1:41And she's also been a key person in advising this government on what it needs to do now that we have an unreliable partner in America. Welcome to the News Agents USA. the news agents usa with emily mateless and john sopal it's john it's mateless and fiona hill is this remarkable figure that when i was living in washington you suddenly heard this kind of key figure who's part of the national security establishment in america and you think that ain't no american accent she's speaking with she is from the northeast and she's got a fascinating backstory. She became a key person advising Donald Trump in the White House, was with him on a number of overseas trips and is trying to advise him in terms of relations with Russia, which is her expertise, and worked very closely with John Bolton, the National Security Advisor, and then took part in the first impeachment trial of Donald Trump, which, as you might imagine, didn't exactly put her in Donald Trump's good books.

2:46Yeah, she is a fluent Russian speaker, as you'll hear later, and a witness in those House hearings of November of 2019. And she is also the Chancellor of Durham University. So she sort of straddles, as it were, the UK and her extraordinary knowledge of the US. And she spends a lot of time thinking very closely about security, about our defence and about the position that other countries are now having towards America under Donald Trump. This sort of overly bright shining star who sucks up everything around him. Yeah. And she was co-author of the Strategic Defence Review that Lord Robertson, George Robertson, has written and which the government has got really cross with George Robertson about after Robertson said, you know, the government was being complacent about national security and was talking the talk and wasn't walking the walk.

3:52So she's also playing a role, even though she lives in America and is very rarely in the UK, in kind of a very key part of UK politics right now. Well, we're delighted to be joined by Fiona Hill. I want to start. We're obviously going to talk a lot about Donald Trump, the difference between the first term and the second term and the way the international relationships have developed or deteriorated. and it seems that the British ambassador Christian Turner has been overheard on a hot mic saying to school children that America's only special relationship is not with us, the British, but it's with Israel.

4:30What do you make of that?

4:32Fiona Hill:Well, he's capturing something that at present is accurate. I mean, the United States and Israel have gone to war together against Iran and that obviously is indicative of a very deep and very important relationship and it was done, of course, for Israel's security. Now, there are historic reasons, you know, for why the United States is so heavily invested in the relationship with Israel. I mean, the United States was one of the first countries to recognize the creation of Israel. I mean, there have been some tensions, you know, obviously in that relationship over time. But of course, if you look at the composition of the US population in terms of religious affiliation, And we also know that often Judaism is at least linked or associated with, you know, an identity that goes beyond just a pure religious affiliation, rightly or wrongly.

5:24Fiona Hill:Let's just stress that because that obviously is controversial. But you don't always think, for example, that, you know, people who are Presbyterians are all Scots or people who are Church of England, just using the kind of British examples, are all English, you know, for example, Episcopalian. But there is a tendency to, you know, associate that with a larger identity. and, of course, the largest population of people who identify as Jewish outside of Israel is in the United States, about 7 million. Now, of course, there's all of the back and forth about the implications of all of this, but the United States has been very committed to the support of Israel for a long time.

6:00Fiona Hill:There is a very important constituency in terms of voters and others who support Israel. There's lots of exchanges back and forth. But over time, I would say certainly from the first Trump administration onwards, you've seen a much closer relationship emerging with the government of Benjamin Netanyahu, which I think has been quite different from perhaps, you know, more of a general support of Israel that we might have seen under previous administrations. You go back to the Suez Crisis and Britain gets into massive trouble with America for starting a war in the Middle East that America disapproves of.

6:37And now Britain is in trouble for not getting involved in a war that Donald Trump has started with Israel that didn't get congressional approval. The UN were totally sidestepped. And now Donald Trump is berating NATO for not doing more. And what does this tell us about how Donald Trump sees the world order, if he does at all?

6:59Fiona Hill:Well, it does get back actually to that point about the relationship with Israel. This has been extraordinarily close. One in terms of intelligence and, you know, in terms of political relationships, also focused on the creation of the Abraham Accords. I mean, that has become a kind of a cornerstone of US policy in the Middle East as well. and I think when you're referring back to Suez the United States had a very different position on how it saw the Middle East unfolding at the time it saw France and the UK I mean there's a certain irony in all of this of course as colonial powers that were still kind of basically trying to intervene in a way that the United States at that time disapproved of and you know as the relationships have shifted of course if you think back to 1956 and Suez the French realise that their relationship with the United States wasn't too special.

7:45Fiona Hill:And they tended to chart their own path in terms of their affiliation with NATO and other choices they made, including on their nuclear defence, for example. And the UK took the opposite decision to kind of double down on the relationship and try to hug the United States closer. But over time, all these tensions have built up with the United States and the United Kingdom. If you think back to Iraq in 2003, of course, it was actually another war that was decided on in conjunction with the United Kingdom then in 2003 with Iraq. I mean, Tony Blair and the government were heavily involved in that decision making about Iraq.

8:23Fiona Hill:But, you know, fast forward 23 years, we've obviously had a lot of shifts. And I think that this is actually what we're looking at here. We've got a shifting world order. We've got shifting perceptions of alliances. Donald Trump and people around him have felt that the UK, along with many other European countries, notwithstanding the UK's involvement in Iraq and you know before that in Afghanistan have not been you know moving in step with the way that the United States emphasis on its global posture has shifted. Now again I said this is not without irony because in the national security strategy that was published just last year in 2025 the United States seemed to downplay its positions and interests in the Middle East.

9:05Fiona Hill:It had the Western Hemisphere its own region of Canada, Mexico and all the rest at the top. I mean, basically restoring the defensive posture of the United States within its own region, immediate region. Then, of course, was the Asia-Pacific. We've been having this pivot in the United States towards Asia going back to the Obama era, but actually still very much emphasising that China and what was happening in the Asia-Pacific was uppermost. And then the Middle East was after that. But I think, you know, that point in 2025, that idea of the Abraham Accords that kind of cornerstone keeping Iran at bay would have been I think from the United States perspective very much settled now obviously those circumstances have changed but we did see the United Kingdom and Europe, there was a bit of a shout out to the UK and Ireland as sort of having still a special affection in the United States thinking about Europe but it was very much clear from the national security strategy that the whole intent was that Europe was going to pick up the slack move on that the united states was no longer in fact this has been again back to obama and even earlier an admonition to the uk and europe to stand on your own two feet you know do more in terms of um your you know support for your own defense etc but you've never really got away from that tie that the united states is very much still responsible for israel's defense and protection as well.

10:29I want to ask you Fiona about the way other countries respond to Trump. They used to use that phrase you know watch the hips not the lips in other words let's see how he he actions rather than what he says but it seems now that we're in a new place which is how do we how do countries or how does the press how does the media respond to this man that is literally absolutely at the centre of sort of everything right now. And in the first year of his second administration, 2024, it seemed that everyone was trying to be compliant. Everyone was trying to make the right moves, you know, turn up with a gold bar, do the right trade deal with him, you know.

11:15And this year, there has been a reset, like the sort of the blindfolds come off. And we've seen him in Venezuela and we've seen him in Greenland and we've seen him in Iran and people have gone, oh, right, we're backing off. I'm just trying to get a sense from you whether you recognise that as a kind of, as a movement away from Trump and whether it's making us safer or less safe.

11:45Fiona Hill:Well, look, I mean, in terms of how things are all going to play out in this very turbulent and difficult geopolitical context, that question of safer or less safe. I mean, we are in many respects less safe than we were before already because of all of these rifts and these ruptures. The fact that the UK and other allies were not consulted about the decision to go after Iran, take out the Ayatollah and the leadership and then to basically move forward with an operation where I think, I mean, even within the United States itself and very much so within the ISIS states, there was already a reckoning intelligence and other circles that highly likely, if not inevitable, that Iran would close the Strait of Hormuz.

12:29So that already gives you a kind of a sense. And I think I just want to get back to the actual where the question is the way that you framed it.

12:35Fiona Hill:I think what people are seeing now that they didn't perhaps see the first time around and perhaps people like myself and others are something to blame of that, that there were a lot of constraints and checks and balances still around Trump. He wasn't uninhibited and unconstrained. I think there were more people who were willing at that point to basically push back at some of the positions that he wanted to take. But were these positions that you recognised from your work alongside him in the first administration? So he always wanted to do this stuff, but he just got pushed back. I think there were some things that he actually had a very different risk calculation.

13:14Fiona Hill:So I think he was more cognizant of the fact that some things could go wrong the first term. So I think what we've seen over the course of a very quick course of his first year is he got emboldened by his ability to kind of impress his will, both at home and abroad. And the really periods, I mean, a lot of people have said, why is there no pushback in the United States against President Trump? Well, you are starting to see it now. But at first, it's kind of seen that. I think you are. I think you're starting to see it in all kinds of different fronts. It might not be coalescing, but he is getting pushback at home from the courts because they take quite some time to kind of build up here.

13:50Maybe not in the way that people might want from the Supreme Court, but certainly you're still getting the undercutting of his position on tariffs, for example. You saw in Minneapolis and in Minnesota, people in the population there pushing back. You're getting a lot of questions, actually, in the Congress right now about, you know, the necessity, as you were already saying there, John, about was this really wise to attack Iran? As you said, I mean, the Congress didn't have any say in this, too.

14:16Fiona Hill:There's all kinds of questions, you know, about this and questions about, you know, the kind of natures of the, you know, the relationships, you know, as a result that are playing out across the Middle East. but you are you know starting to see a lot of people at the the level of the states uh and big cities and the kind of question um the way that uh trump is behaving and of course i think that you've got a couple of watershed moments iran is definitely one of them because the um fallibility of the premise has now been proven and all of the people who trump would have seen as naysayers about talking about iran you know going um uh forward with the closure of strait of hormuz I mean this was well known it's one of the reasons why previous governments didn't do anything and also within Israel itself it was well known, I mean you see within Israel many of the intelligence people both retired and current and former generals saying exactly the same thing this was magical thinking that there would be no response like this from Iran but prior to that you've got Greenland and you know you've also then had this whole series of insults and calling out Volodymyr Zelensky in the Oval Office And just incident after incident where I think it's really got people focused now that this is a person who is uninhibited and basically just now does whatever he wants.

15:35And he is not even responsive to public opinion or even to voter opinion.

15:40Fiona Hill:We'll see what happens in the midterms in his own country, let alone internationally. Oh, the fight with the Pope is another one. I mean, this is kind of an irony to me. you know we talk about papal infallibility but trump's basically saying no i'm infallible i donald trump and the pope is very fallible i mean taking the pope on theology on just war theory and on just any of his pronouncements i mean trump has at this point you know and the kind of the american lexicon you know sort of you know that expression jumped the shark gone a bit too far this was from happy days and the fonds yeah in some kind of ridiculous i mean i remember that I'm not sure that everybody else remembers this, where, you know, Fonz is out water skiing and jumps over a shark and people think, OK, they've lost it.

16:25Fiona Hill:They can't come up with any more plot lines. And that's kind of I think that feeling is starting to happen in the US that Trump is just going too far now. So you've talked about the unrestrained Donald Trump. You've talked about the relationship with Netanyahu. I want to talk about another relationship, which is the Trump relationship with Vladimir Putin. you were at in the room with a few of them very few people in helsinki ahead of that news conference that they gave together what is it i look some people say is donald trump a russian asset and i know it sounds a preposterous thing to say because that's the sort of you know the russians are controlling him as a sort of, you know, as a spy working on behalf of the Russians, on behalf of the Kremlin.

17:13But what is it? Well, it's basically like President Xi of China.

17:21Fiona Hill:There's this whole idea that for Trump, he has very few peers on the global stage. And of course, from his point of view, it's the ultimate strongmen are the people that he associates himself with. so as he's dissed the pope and dismissed the pope um that's kind of removed as one person with global reach and global recognition and as far as he's concerned the people who've got the most control the most power the most authority are vladimir putin on the one hand and president she on the other and then within that we started talking about the erosion of the uk us special relationship which has been you know ongoing for quite some period of time but within that there was a very special relationship with the royal family and with the king and prior to that with the queen because they have a cachet that trump also doesn't have they have global recognition and global respect they may not have the same kind of powers um in a constitutional or real pragmatic sense as she and putin do but for trump the people who are at the apex or the uh the very top of a vertical of power and as far as he's concerned you know if you went around the man in the street and said, who's this?

18:31Fiona Hill:I mean, chances are most people would recognise Putin and Xi, even if they couldn't come up with their names, oh, that's, you know, the Russian leader or that's the Chinese leader. And then, of course, most people would recognise either, you know, Queen Elizabeth II, their deceased queen, and then, of course, King Charles. But that's kind of what Putin, you know, for him, for Trump is. He wants his respect and he wants to kind of bask in a way in reflected glory of Putin. But is it more than that? I mean, the question that I think has surrounded this whole relationship is, does Putin have something on Trump which makes Trump constantly bow to his will rather than favouring Zelensky?

19:11Yes, he has something valuable and tangible that Trump wants, which is his respect, his adoration. But not compromise. Well, look, that's compromising, right? So if you are, well, it's very compromising because if you are a KGB agent, you're looking for someone's biggest weakness and vulnerability. How can you manipulate them and how can you turn them into an asset, witting or unwitting?

19:35Fiona Hill:You know, if it's witting, you know, you're obviously with money and all kinds of things and compromising material, which we all have on Donald Trump. I mean, come on. I mean, how many lawsuits have there been? You know, how many exposés of things that he's done and said? And the corruption in the United States now that people are documenting is phenomenal of him and around of his family. So what could Putin possibly have that be more than that? Very clear. I mean, perhaps there is something. But, you know, Trump has been going to Russia since the 1980s. And it's very clear that he responds to flattery.

20:04And even, you know, at the time of his first visits, everybody is seeing him as a celebrity business person who has political aspirations. So, of course, they would be courting him. And so Putin is playing on that desire to be recognised as the greatest, you know, world historic figure. The first things that Putin said about Trump, even when he hadn't really met him, was something about he's a very, he used this Russian term, Yarky Lichnist. And Yarky is, you know, it's translated as bright, unique. I mean, it can also be a slightly kind of backhanded compliment in the kind of Russian sense. Yeah, he really stands out.

20:40you know it's kind of yes you are a bit too bright yeah but shoot too brightly exactly yeah he's a bit of a you know kind of person you don't see too you know too often around and so um putin's very carefully doled out access to him for trump i mean he'll say things when he wants to kind of lure trump in that um you know suggest that he said nice things about him and trump immediately kind of responds um you know in a way i mean it's it's almost as if they're in a kind of relationship you know a sort of kind of romance where putin is making sure he's a bit hard to get uh and he's making himself a bit aloof and a bit inaccessible he's not pandering and fawning all over donald trump and same with she and obviously the king is not doing this either so he's not so in a way he is turning him into an ass because uh trump wants to have um basically Putin's respect and praise at all times.

21:35And he also is a bit intimidated by him as well, I would say. And he's clearly learned from Putin's playbook. He's learned about the power of destabilization of truth. Right. I mean, you know, we are talking sort of three days after another attempt at assassination. And you will know, we all know that America is full. the internet is full of people who actually just don't now believe it, right? They don't believe what they saw in the Washington Hilton. They don't believe what they saw at Butler, Pennsylvania, that we are now entering into a place where we are doubting things that should be fundamental facts.

22:15I mean, is there any doubt in your mind that any of those attempts happen? Does that feel a ridiculous question? It is a ridiculous question, but yes, it's obvious that that is the realm that we're in now.

22:27Fiona Hill:And it is a realm of misinformation, deliberate disinformation that, again, is a vulnerability for exploitation from the outside. So, I mean, if you think about Russia and getting back to this, you know, what does Putin have? I mean, again, he knows that Trump himself is very prone to conspiracy theories, that Trump lives in a world of memes and all kinds of tropes and on his truth social. And, you know, he will actually take on board anything that is fed to him. This is another massive weakness. I mean, when I was in the first administration, Trump would sometimes pick up on things. You'd realize this is Russian propaganda.

23:02That's actually what I said in the first impeachment. And the Russians are just amplifying all of this because they know that Trump will believe it. And if you think about the downing of MH17, the Malaysian airlines flight across Ukraine, for example, remember the Russians said, oh, this was a CIA action or this was, you know, was uh putin's plane that was crossing over territory nearby and i just so many it was it was a plane that was filled with corpses the cia had uh produced from somewhere this was literally in one of the ideas the same thing with the scrip al poisonings in salisbury the uk did it to itself you know etc etc etc there's all of these players all the time but these are the kinds of players that Trump likes to engage in as well.

23:48Thinking about the accidental shelling or missile attack on the girls' school in Iran. Trump immediately says, well, maybe that was Iran. I mean, it can't be known. But that's the kind of... It doesn't mean he believes it, though, does it? It just means... He wants to believe it, but he also wants to deflect in the same way. And again, there's a vulnerability in all of that. When you yourself are playing in that realm, it's one of the reasons that I think in the first time around many of us

24:15Fiona Hill:resolved that the reason that he did not want to go after Russian misinformation disinformation operations was because he wanted to engage in them himself and if you go after foreign malign actors you have to go after domestic malign actors because they're using the same techniques you know the role of super PACs the political action committees that's what Putin has I mean essentially the troll factory that you've got any pre-gorgion used to run and so in the sense john you're asking that question about being an asset i mean that's how trump is an asset because he's got all these fallibilities these weaknesses these frailties these you know vulnerabilities he loves a good conspiracy um and did you were you the one who would say to him i mean this is batshit you can't you know this isn't serious or and how did he respond when you or bolton or whoever would say this stuff to him Well, I mean, I didn't get a chance to say these things.

25:07Fiona Hill:I mean, you certainly said them publicly during the impeachment, but I'm not the kind of person that he would listen to. Bolton would try, John Bolton and H.R. McMaster. I mean, there were lots of his, you know, senior staff, the DNI at the time, Dan Coates, Gina Haspel, when she was the CIA director, Pompeo, Mike Pompeo as well. And everybody would try to kind of refute these. and there's no one doing that now. Yeah, I think it's highly unlikely that someone's doing this now. Now, the people around him, many of the people around him, including the current CIA director, of course they know better.