Is Trump trying to distract us from the Epstein files?

0:01This is a Global Player original podcast. We have some breaking news into CNN. Jeffrey Epstein accomplice and convicted sex trafficker Gillan Maxwell is offering to testify before Congress, but her lawyers say she has a list of demands before she talks to them.

0:19Jon Sopel:Over a month has now elapsed since the Justice Department was meant to have published all the Epstein papers. only a tiny fraction have so far been released. But late last night we received news that Ghislaine Maxwell, the only person now serving a prison sentence for sex trafficking in Epstein's ring, is going to appear before Congress. Will that make any material difference to what happens now? Welcome to the News Agents USA. The News Agents USA with Emily Maitlis and John Sopel. It's John. It's Emily. And we have had a lot of people contacting us over the past few weeks saying, Epstein, what's happening?

1:05Jon Sopel:Has everyone forgotten about it? Has it all been sorted? Has it all gone away? And it's easy to imagine that it has given the kind of avalanche of news about what's happening with ICE officers in Minneapolis, what's happening in Greenland. And we are covering all those topics extensively on the main newsagent's feed. But on News Agents USA, we want to come back to this because no way has the whole dossier over Jeffrey Epstein and what happened to those poor young women who were trafficked to his island, has it gone away? It is still very current and very hot. Let's take you back to November just to remind you that Congress pretty unanimously voted to release the Epstein files.

1:51They put pressure on Donald Trump when he was forced by members of his own party to offer that to a vote. And all but one said, yes, we would like to see the Epstein files released. And there was this sort of easing of the pressure on Trump for about a month when we were watching to see how, when we would get all these papers. The Epstein files, just to explain, I mean, it's not a ring binder as such. It is testimony that goes back 20 years, that goes back to the first reports of many of these young girls, young women in 2006, 2007, 2008, who came forward to the police, who came forward to attorneys, to prosecutors and told them what Jeffrey Epstein was doing.

2:37It contains stuff from Jeffrey Epstein's own estates. It contains memos that he has written. It contains more emails, more correspondence. This is all the stuff that we are waiting to see. A month went by. Nothing happened. The law was very clear. The Department of Justice in America was required to disclose all the investigative files by the 19th of December of last year. We are now into the third week of January and we haven't seen those files. A month has gone past. It is clear that Trump has managed to talk about just about everything else except for these Epstein files. And Justice Department attorneys, just to put this in context for you, said that they had posted around 12 ,000 pages to the Department of Justice's website.

3:32That equates to 125 ,000 pages under the legislation's requirements. And in that same letter, they'd identified more than two million documents. So your maths is better than mine. It's a fraction. Tiny, tiny. We are waiting for probably 99 % of the information to come out. And we are now, what, two months on.

3:58Jon Sopel:And the other thing that's just worth adding to that is that what we've learned, and if you think about some of the new things that have come out about, you know, that involved Peter Mandelson, that involved Prince Andrew or Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, that was nothing to do with the release of the files held by the FBI. That was because the House Oversight Committee had papers that belonged to the Epstein estate, which they started to feed out as a way of putting pressure on the Justice Department. Say, come on, you've got the bulk of this stuff. You need to come clean on it now. And of course, it has been relatively quiet for the past month because Donald Trump is a news generating factory that produces stories, ten a penny.

4:41Jon Sopel:and we all kind of look the other way. But it's going to come back to Epstein without a doubt, following the news that Ghislaine Maxwell has agreed to sit for a deposition before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee on the 9th of February. So two or three weeks time. What we'll learn from that, I'm not sure. Because her lawyers have said, you know what? There's only a very limited amount that we are going to give because she complete the Fifth Amendment. In other words, say nothing. Say nothing, yeah. And so her lawyers have been saying they're going to plead the fifth. And let me just read you what her legal team have said in a letter to the committee.

5:24Jon Sopel:Put plainly, proceeding under these circumstances would serve no other purpose than pure political theatre and a complete waste of taxpayer monies. The committee would obtain no testimony, no answers and no new facts. So that is the warning from Ghislaine Maxwell's side while she's still in prison. Now, they're obviously saying, you know, give her a full pardon. It's a different ballgame. I mean, she would say that, wouldn't she? She's saying she has the right not to incriminate herself while an appeal against her sentence is continuing. And so she's essentially saying, I'm just going to be boring.

6:00I have nothing to add. I'm not going to say anything. I'm not probably going to speak. James Comer, who heads up the committee, has also called upon the Clintons. He's a Republican and he has called upon Bill and Hillary Clinton also to testify before his committee. We should explain there is no assumption of wrongdoing, but there is a need, the committee feels, to hear from people who have been named in some of the depositions, who have been named in some of the correspondence, whose presence may have been on the island, on Epstein's island, and whose presence we know was on Epstein's plane. And so they have already refused.

6:40It's complicated because they're also saying it's been weaponised to attack political opponents of President Trump. So they're trying to play it from the position of, well, we just think you're pulling us in because you don't want to talk to Trump. And Glenn's saying, well, why would I want to do that? Because I'm just going to incriminate myself when I'm already in prison. And so at the moment, we don't know what these appearances are going to add, if anything. I mean, whether the Clintons can stay out of this completely or whether they will be subpoenaed. But I guess where it takes us is this question of what is voluntary and what is the law?

7:17And Spencer Colvin, who is a friend of this podcast, the attorney for, I think, the first ever Epstein victim, has said Congress did not create a discretionary timeline. It created a legal obligation. In other words, you can't choose. You can't just choose whether you're going to obey the law. You have to obey the law. Congress has said, release the files. We all voted to release the files. What is the government doing? It should be releasing the files. And now there are some who are calling for a judicial intervention who are actually asking a judge to implement what they call a special master who could facilitate the release of the documents.

7:57Is anyone going to do that? Is anyone going to go to Trump and say, oh, you know, you really want to see these files released back in November. Should we get on with it now? I don't know.

8:05Jon Sopel:I think there was a kind of great sense of hope, not about political embarrassment, but actually... Getting to the bottom. Getting to the bottom of this whole dreadful, sordid business where these young girls were trafficked and made to do ghastly things to support these powerful men who thought they had impunity. And that was the hope. And here we are, as you say, in the third week of January. And not that much progress has been made. And sure, it will be a moment of TV drama when Ghislaine Maxwell is sworn in. She'll be in her prison doing it remotely to give evidence. And she may not say anything.

8:48Jon Sopel:We may not learn anything more. And I think that sense of frustration actually does not help Donald Trump, because I think there are enough people in America who think that actually no one comes out of this world. and Donald Trump is seen now to be a block on information, particularly given that in the run-up to the 2024 election, all the people around him were saying, we demand full disclosure of the Epstein files and now they're in office and they've seen what's in those files, they don't seem so keen. If you want to try and understand why this is so important and I think a lot of people might be saying, well, we've seen the emails now, We saw the correspondence that Epstein sent.

9:33We've read a lot of this stuff. What more is there to know? We've heard the testimonies of these young women. We've heard the story of Virginia Dufresne and her memoir. What more is there to know? And I cannot begin to explain why this is so important, because it goes back to a court case that would have put Epstein on trial in 2007-2008. In other words, 20 years ago. If that court case had taken place, it is highly possible, highly likely, that Epstein would have been sent to jail for decades. and many of the victims that he went on to abuse would not have had that abuse. So in other words, we need to know from these files what change of mind happened at the top of the DOJ that led to the cancellation of a court case that ended up in a plea deal.

10:34The investigation went away. Epsien ended up with a ridiculously light sentence, a sort of open prison where he could come and go. he slept there and it was only a year and from what we understand now he carried on abusing people during that prison sentence and we still don't understand who decided who made that decision at the top of the DOJ to make that trial disappear or why so that's why these papers these files

11:00Jon Sopel:are so important it just fosters suspicion and doubt and cynicism among people if when there are legitimate questions that need to be answered and there are a pile of questions that need to be answered over Epstein if you just say okay we're brushing it under the carpet we don't want to go anywhere near it and the DOJ I think Pam Bondi is the Attorney General it's shameful the way she is playing this for as long as possible to say as little as possible with as many redactions and as much black ink as you can possibly find so that you can keep people in the dark about what went on on that dreadful little island.

11:42We'll be back in a moment, looking at the rising star of the Democratic Party at Davos.

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13:03Jon Sopel:the newsagents usa in davos over the past couple of days there is one american voice that has come through very loudly and has been with us kind of every minute of every day it's felt and that of course is the president donald trump but there has been another voice that has really also cut through in a way that I think puts him now on the international stage as a voice of opposition to Donald Trump and that is the governor of California Gavin Newsom who until now has been you know yes he's been active yes he has been talked about as a potential presidential candidate but the thing about American politics is there is no post of leader of the opposition as there is in our parliamentary system in the UK.

13:50Jon Sopel:But Gavin Newsom is sort of emerging now as the leader of the opposition to Donald Trump. And he's using that platform at Davos to take the attack to the man in Pennsylvania Avenue. Yeah. And according to prediction markets and early polling, Newsom is now the Democrats' current front runner for president for 2028. He has a book coming out next month, a memoir. Always helpful. It's quite often a rite of passage, isn't it, for people who want to throw their hat into the presidential ring, even though he wouldn't tell you that that's what he was doing at this stage. It's become pretty obvious. And he told The Atlantic earlier this month that the American people always support strong and wrong versus weak and right.

14:39And so I I think this takes you into the Newsom psyche a little bit, which is eight long years ago, nine years ago, when Michelle Obama was trying to help people understand what the fight was for Hillary Clinton against Donald Trump. She said, when they go low, we go high. In other words, we have the moral authority. We show them how it's done. We come to this from a place of respect and humanity. and Newsom's gone, uh-uh, no, not me, no thanks. And he's gone low. He's gone properly low on social media. He's funny. He's quite cruel. When he was addressing Elon Musk and the fallout with his estranged daughter, he was like, I'm sorry, your kid hates you.

15:24You know, this stuff is meant to hurt and it's meant to rile. And it has. It's got under Donald Trump's skin because he quite often posts in all block capital He signs off, thank you for your attention, which is iconic Trump. And he's appeared at Davos. And we've heard him a couple of times already this week. The first was when he kind of chided European leaders for being so weak and spineless. Let's just play you that clip. I can't take this complicity. People rolling over. I should have brought a bunch of knee pads for all the world leaders. I mean, handing out crowns and handing. I mean, this is pathetic.

16:07Nobel Prizes, they are being given away. I mean, it's just pathetic. And I hope people understand how pathetic they look on the world stage. I mean, at least from an American perspective, it's embarrassing. Look, I think he believes that. I think he says that with conviction. But I think he's also playing a clever game, which is that he can't seem to Americans to be siding with the European leaders, to be siding with world leaders. He has to sort of kick them a bit as well to sort of say, what are you guys doing? Where are you? Come on. Because he's also trying to sort of, I guess, appear as an American with a sense of strength.

16:47Yes.

16:48Jon Sopel:And I think that so far it's working very well. I mean, look, you know, Gavin Newsom, a Democrat from California. Do Democrats win when they are from coastal states, which are very liberal? And, you know, people will throw stuff at Gavin Newsom about the state of Los Angeles or the state of San Francisco, where there is a lot of homelessness and a lot of drug addiction and all the rest of it. And no houses. and no houses but equally he has shown himself to be absolutely equal to the fight and the other thing we've often talked about on the podcast is how you know whether it's about western leaders not knowing how to deal with donald trump or democrats not knowing how to deal with donald trump or the media not knowing how to deal with donald trump gavin newsom knows how to deal with donald trump he gets it he gets the fact that you know what you're going to get dirty you're going to get mud all over your clothes, but that's what you've got to do if you're in a mud wrestle with the President of the United States.

17:46And how do you know that he's got under Trump's skin? Because his appearance at Davos on stage, a fireside chat with Forbes magazine was cancelled by the US administration. That's what we're hearing at least from Newsom's own office. And just to kind of unpick that, a fireside chat is a very cosy thing, right? A fireside chat is kind of is the formal lingo for sort of meaning it's not going to be a hard hitting talk. It's just going to be a chat. And somebody doesn't like the idea that Newsom and Forbes, Forbes magazine, are sitting down together to have a discussion about the state of the world, the state of America, what's happening at Davos.

18:31Somebody has come in and cancelled that because they presumably either feel threatened by what he's about to say or by the amount of airtime that he's taking away from Trump?

18:40Jon Sopel:So the Americans have never taken such a big delegation to Davos. And as well as the main conference centre, which is where a lot of the activities unfold, every country will have its own little house. And Gavin Newsom was due to appear at America House. So probably run and paid for by the US administration. And it shows their sensitivity, as you say, Emily, that they have pulled the plug and said, no, no, no. If Gavin Newsom wants to go on the main stage in the World Economic Forum as a guest there, that's fine, but he's not doing it here. And so he's been on the main stage at the World Economic Forum and he hasn't pulled his punches.

19:17And we decided the only way to address Trump is quite literally to fight fire with fire. I did an initiative, Prop 50 in California, was to reflect the fact that Donald Trump called an American politician and said in the middle of the decade to the governor of the state of Texas, I am entitled, Greg Abbott, to five seats, and I need you to redraw district lines, mid-year redistricting, to rig the 2026 election before one vote is cast. What the Trump administration expected we were going to do, as good Democrats do, we might write an op-ed. And we may, you know, all go out and just say, this is just so wrong, and all of us would be applauding and say, yes, yes, as he's consolidating power.

20:01Instead, we went out and we redraw our maps. And we also drew a line in the sand. And I think that's what's required at this moment. And he cusses out weakness like no one else. That's his great strength. That's his gift. But you punch back. You fight fire with fire. You display conviction and strength. It's a different relationship. And so my relationship to this moment... He is a risk taker. He's not scared of risk. And what he's just been explaining to the audience is how he responded to Trump's attempts, essentially, to gerrymander these congressional seats in Texas. Gavin Newsom went further than the op-ed, went further than retaliation.

20:45He actually had a brand new democratic measure he called Prop 50, Proposition 50. And he said, if you're going to redistrict in Texas, I'm going to do the same in this blue, blue democratic state of California. But he didn't just push it through. He said, I'm putting it on the ballot. Let the people of California tell you if they want it or not. And in an off year election, which was last November, it went through with a significant size of victory. In other words, Gavin Newsom has now got the backing of the people of California to respond, to retaliate to Trump's moves by doing the same thing in California.

21:23And it's only triggered if Texas is redistricted. In other words, he can say, I didn't want to do this. You pushed me into it. So I think somebody who is just willing to play fire with fire is something that has put a little bit of kind of excitement in the Democrat belly right now, because it's true. You know, you can't do everything. I mean, you can do a lot with a podcast and an op-ed, but not everything. And here's a politician who's saying, OK, right, we're going to fight. This is how I fight.

21:56Jon Sopel:And also, you've just got to put it in the context of the mindset of American Democrats after the November election, when they all sat around and were moping and what have we done wrong? We'd lost and what could we do? And it's all so hopeless. And actually, I think that Gavin Newsom is a fighter who's got up and is making some inroads. And I think that him in Davos, the book coming out, he's projecting himself now on the international stage. Again, all classic signs of someone who is going to run in 2028. I would say the other person in California who is kind of being active again, Kamala Harris.

22:36Jon Sopel:She's looking at polling data that is coming out that is quite favourably weighted towards her, that she would do very well in a matchup against J.D. Vance or whoever it happens to be. And so Kamala Harris is back thinking my political days are not over yet. Now, personally, I think that Gavin Newsom looks much more likely given the background. There's also one aspect of his personal life that is just worth mentioning. I know what you're going to say. Yeah. Well, he's married. Ex-wife. His ex-wife is a woman called Kimberley Guilfoyle. They were married in December 2001. They separated in 2004 and filed for divorce in January 2005.

23:17Jon Sopel:and they cited difficulties due to their careers on opposite coasts. Well, forget opposite coasts. Yeah, opposite sides. It's on opposite sides. Kimberly Guilfoyle was then attached to Donald Trump Jr., the partner of, a great MAGA voice on Fox, and for her efforts in supporting Donald Trump, she is now America's ambassador to Greece. And so she is there in this prominent position as a champion of MAGA, while her ex-husband could be the Democratic candidate for the presidency in 2028. Yeah, I mean, this all started weirdly with Newsom doing this podcast. Just, I mean, to your Kimberley Guilfoyle point, he started doing this podcast where he invited on all these MAGA voices.

24:03Yeah, Steve Bannon and the like. All of them, you know, I want to hear them. I want to hear what they've got to say. And he was kind of ridiculed at the beginning because he wasn't really pushing back. He didn't really ask tough questions. He just sat there and listened and let them speak. but essentially I guess it went into the ether which was like okay if I don't know what they're saying how do I know how to counter them and so it sort of feels like this is the product of what he's been doing now for 18 months where he's gone I get you I hear you I see your social media I see your language I see your problems I see your weaknesses I've got it but we are still in 2026 it's a long way to go to a presidential election.

24:43Jon Sopel:Yeah, and, you know, there'll be so many other people who are looking themselves in the mirrors thinking, I could be the candidate in 2028. There is not going to be a coronation for the next Democratic candidate as there was for Kamala Harris when Joe Biden pulled out of the race very late. If the word cloud around Biden at the end was, I mean, is this unfair? Doddery, weak, senile, frail. Right. then what you're looking at in the voter's mind, presumably, is somebody who is the exact antithesis of that. We'll be back after this.