Mark Kelly: The Senator Trump wants 'hanged'

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. Do I regret this? Absolutely not. I would do it again tomorrow. And go to prison for it? Absolutely. We're talking about the Constitution of the United States that this guy is clearly violating over and over again. Not just the freedom of speech. He threw Don Lemon, a journalist. He flew through somebody like you guys in jail for doing their jobs. He has attacked law firms, got them to back down. Media companies got them to back down. Universities got them to back down. He's not getting me to back down because this is too important. It's not just about me.

0:42I just happen to be like the first person through the breach here. And, you know, I'm the guy who has to deal with this. I mean, I've almost died for this country so many times. and I'm going to take this to whatever conclusion. I mean, Donald Trump, he's got a couple options here. He can continue to put the full force of the Department of Defense and the Department of Justice up against me, or he can go and, I don't want to use the wrong word here, what do you guys say, bugger off? He can do that. That is Senator Mark Kelly from Arizona, former Navy pilot, former astronaut and who now has a wanted sign on his head because of things that he said that have upset Donald Trump.

1:35He has told colleagues in the military that their duty is to the rule of law, not to Donald Trump. And because of that, Donald Trump has asked to see him hanged. Welcome to the News Agency USA. The News Agents USA with Emily Maitlis and John Sopel. It's John. It's Emily. And Senator Mark Kelly has just come from Munich, where he was at the security conference, and he's now in London. And he's got a really fascinating background and backstory because he joined the US military, served as a Navy pilot, flew combat missions in the first Gulf War, became an astronaut, so is the only person who's been to space as a US congressman, and now serves as the senator for Arizona.

2:32And he was one of the three shortlisted to be Kamala Harris's vice presidential pick in 2024. He lost out, of course, to Tim Walsh of Minnesota. But he is back and he sounds like he is ambitious enough to consider a run for the presidency. And one of the reasons that he has shot to prominence recently is actually all thanks to Donald Trump, who has gone after him, accused him of sedition and put him before a grand jury. because Mark Kelly was trying to warn those in the military that they did not have to follow the rules of a man he calls a bully. We're joined in the studio now by Senator Mark Kelly.

3:23You put out a video, which we're going to play a little bit of, where you talk to servicemen and women of the United States and say their duty is to follow the military code. And this is what's caused you a whole heap of trouble. I'm Senator Alyssa Slotkin. Senator Mark Kelly. Representative Chris Deluzio. Congressman Maggie Goodlander. Representative Chrissy Houlihan. Congressman Jason Crowe. I was a captain in the United States Navy. Former CIA officer. Former Navy. Former paratrooper and Army Ranger. Former intelligence officer. Former Air Force. We want to speak directly to members of the military and the intelligence community who take risks each day to keep Americans safe.

4:03We know you are under enormous stress and pressure right now. Americans trust their military. But that trust is at risk. This administration is pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens. Like us, you all swore an oath to protect and defend this Constitution. Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home. Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders. You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders. No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution.

4:38We know this is hard. And that it's a difficult time to be a public servant. But whether you're serving in the CIA, in the Army, or Navy, the Air Force, your vigilance is critical. And know that we have your back. Because now, more than ever, the American people need you. We need you to stand up for our laws, our Constitution, and who we are as Americans. Don't give up. Don't give up. Don't give up. Don't give up the ship. Did you expect? could you have conceived of the reaction that there would be from Donald Trump and the Secretary of Defense or Secretary of War, whichever you want to call him, Pete Hegseth, to that video?

5:21Before I say that, you know, as I'm watching this, what I'm thinking about is I recorded that video, took my participation was five minutes. I approved it before it went out. And at the time, I thought I would never see that video again. And now I have seen that video over and over and over again. And Donald Trump's reaction has resulted in millions of people watching our video. So we recorded something that was truthful. We stated the law very simply. We're trying to send a message that members of the military are often not reminded of. You're taught this early on in a lot of cases. You don't hear it again.

6:08But we did not expect that reaction. It was the second video we did. We did another one about, you guys would appreciate this, no kings. We don't have a king in America. We did that video. And then we did this one. And his immediate reaction, like a day or two later, was hang them, execute them, prosecute them. Donald Trump can't even get the order right. He's got the order backwards. But because of his reaction, I mean, so many more people got the message. And the reason we wanted to send this message is here's a guy that you go back to 2016. He is standing on a debate stage. Brett Baer from Fox News is the moderator.

6:52And he says we should kill, the U.S. military should kill the family members of terrorists. meaning women and children, that he felt that was the solution to things like ISIS and al-Qaeda, murder kids. Because of that and other things that he said, we felt like this was an appropriate message. We didn't think we'd ever get that kind of reaction. But just tell us what prompted it, because this came out last November. Well, OK, I'll tell you the other things. So it was that we know who this guy is. He'd been president before. He has said some crazy things. When he was president the first term, he also talked about shooting protesters in the legs, U.S.

7:34citizens who are protesting. And as you have protests in his second term, he starts to talk about sending military units into cities to train in those cities, using U.S. citizens for the military to train on. So we knew who he was from 2016. And then we have protests, which are legal in the United States, as they are here. People exercising their First Amendment rights. And he starts talking about sending the military in and using them as somehow as the red team, the enemy, using U.S. citizens as the enemy. So as members of the military and in a couple cases, career CIA officers, we felt it was appropriate to remind service members of their responsibility under the law.

8:25At West Point, there's a plaque that cadets walk by this plaque all the time. And it says, when the law and orders are in conflict, you follow the law. It's a very basic thing. and we thought it was a you know pretty basic message we didn't think we'd get this kind of reaction from him and from that reaction you became the seditious six in magus speak yeah and there has been an attempt to prosecute you to get you before a court and thrown in jail and what happened to that so my thing's kind of complicated because of the six of us i spent 25 years in the U.S. Navy. I flew combat missions in the first Gulf War.

9:11I was an astronaut while I was in the Navy. So I am retired from the U.S. Navy because of my retired status. In theory, they can bring me back onto active duty and prosecute me under military law, the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So they started to try to do that. But at the same time, the president got the Department of Justice, you know, using the tools that he feels he has, not independent Department of Justice, Donald Trump Department of Justice, to go after us as well. So the DOJ is going after all six of us at the same time. The U.S. military comes after me, and they are now trying to reduce, when they realize they're not going to, you know, hangings a little bit extreme, dream, they're trying to demote me, reduce me in rank, and take away some of my pension.

10:07So I sued Pete Hegseth in his job as Secretary of Defense. I sued him, Kelly versus Hegseth. I got a very favorable first ruling from a George Bush appointed judge who used 15 exclamation points in his opinion. He was very firm with the government here in saying that they are violating my First Amendment rights. He was very clear about that. At the same time, a couple of weeks later, the Department of Justice attempts to throw us in prison by indicting us for a seditious conspiracy. We think that's what it is. So what does seditious conspiracy mean? Well, I think it means that there is a group of people that are conspiring to overthrow the government of the United States.

11:00This stuff is crazy because of the video. But here's the good news. Well, first of all, it's not good news that we, you know, I mean, Donald Trump is trying to send a message to all Americans. You do not have the freedom of speech you used to. Do not speak out against me or I'm coming after you, especially if you're a retired service member. I am coming after you. if you speak out against me because I'm the president of the United States, and he thinks he's unlike any other president, he kind of views himself as above the law, right? I mean, this guy's been convicted of felonies. He is trying to enrich himself.

11:34He doesn't have the same view of the presidency as any other president. So he's trying to shut people up. Not going to shut me up, but he is trying, and it's having an effect. I can get into that in a second in trying to shut people up. But what happened was 16 to 24, we don't know the exact number of just regular everyday U.S. citizens. They impaneled a grand jury. The prosecutor said, we want to charge these six individuals with seditious conspiracy. And they said, absolutely not. Unanimously. Unanimous grand juries against indicting are practically unheard of. And grand juries in the United States, federal grand juries, because historically U.S.

12:25attorneys are so careful to make sure that they're not overstepping. They're almost always successful. In 2013, there were 165 ,000 federal indictments. A grand jury, and it's just ordinary people who say, yeah, OK, we accept this. There is enough evidence to bring this case to trial and a fair chance of success and conviction. Yeah, go arrest the people and charge them. Yeah. In 2013, that happened 165 ,000 times successfully and five times unsuccessfully. So it was incredibly rare what happened. where a grand jury unanimously says to the Department of Justice, you must be joking. My lawyers and every other lawyer I've spoken to in the United States say, unanimous?

13:08That never happens. That's how weak their case is. People see through this bullshit. I mean, the American people, there are lines that they do not want an administration, a president, this president crossing. Do you think that the video that you put out had an actual effect on, Have you heard from members of the military or have you heard? I mean, I'm looking at what's been happening in Minnesota with the ICE agents. I guess it didn't. I am. I'm confident we because of the attention that Donald Trump brought to this issue. I am confident that that message got widely disseminated and people were reminded of their responsibility under the law.

13:54So if there's any positive thing about what Donald Trump said, it's that. Do you regret it? He helped. Do I regret this? Absolutely not. I would do it again tomorrow. 100%. And go to prison for it? Absolutely. We're talking about the Constitution of the United States that this guy is clearly violating over and over again. Not just the freedom of speech. He threw Don Lemon, a journalist. He flew through somebody like you guys in jail for doing their jobs. He has attacked law firms, got them to back down. Media companies got them to back down. Universities got them to back down. He's not getting me to back down because this is too important.

14:38It's not just about me. I just happen to be like the first person through the breach here. And, you know, I'm the guy who has to deal with this. I mean, I've almost died for this country so many times. I had a missile blow up next to my airplane in the first Gulf War. I got shot at multiple times. I've almost flown my airplane into the ground a number of times or into the water. I flew on a rocket ship four times. So let's just get to the bottom of this. Of course, of course, I would do this again. And I'm going to take this to whatever conclusion. I mean, Donald Trump, he's got a couple options here.

15:19He can continue to put the full force of the Department of Defense and the Department of Justice up against me. Or he can go and I don't want to use the wrong word here. What do you guys say? Bugger off. He can do that. He doesn't really think that you and the other people in that video were trying to overthrow the government. Who knows what he thinks? It's pretty obvious we weren't. We were stating the law. I don't know what's in it. Is it about silencing? I do not know what's in his head. Frankly, it's about intimidation, right? It's about silence. 100%. And because of the way he has tried to silence us and intimidate us and prosecute us and saying that he's going to hang us, I've had retired service members, admirals and generals who have recently retired who have told me that they have changed what they say and what they do because of what Donald Trump is trying to do to me.

16:18Think about that for a second. Is your life in danger? Now? Yeah, sure. I mean, the death threats against me and my wife, former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords, who was nearly assassinated and shot in the head in 2011. The death threats against both of us have gone up factor of 10 or 20 and we still get them regularly today. And I've had to have security because when the president of the United States, when Donald Trump says, hang them, he's got people out there that listen to him. and I mean I was just playing a recording for somebody the other day and you know the person said hey if the US government isn't going to take care of this bring him to me and I'll take care of can I just ask you this because what you describe sounds like a tyranny it doesn't sound like a democracy that you're describing it sounds like an authoritarian regime in the darkest corners of kind of from the Soviet era where if you don't agree with the line you're taken off to a gulag can never reappear.

17:22Yeah, I mean, that's, I don't know if he's got like a plan written on the back of a napkin here for this. But where is U.S. democracy now then? Well, I think it's at risk. I think it's been damaged significantly. I think we've got serious challenges ahead. I'm concerned about the 2026 election. I think we're up to the challenge. What brings me hope is things like 16 just regular people, you know, telling the administration to take a hike. So tell us about the 2026 midterms and why you're concerned. Last month, we saw ballots being removed from Fulton County in Atlanta. We know that he has talked about nationalizing, nationalizing the vote in November.

18:16What do you think is going to happen in the midterms? Well, a couple sentences after he said he wants to nationalize the elections, he then said he wants Republicans in charge of the elections in 15 states. I imagine my state, Arizona, is probably on his list. He wants Republicans to take over the elections. Can you get more partisan than putting a party in charge of the elections? He grabbed the ballots out of Georgia because he probably wants to do some ridiculous audit and put his finger on the scale because he cannot accept this guy's ego and his skin is so thin that he cannot accept to live in a world where he lost a presidential election.

19:00Now, the guy won in 2016. He won in 2024 as a convicted felon. He won. You would think he should be able to take a victory lap and say, hey, I'm, you know, I'm a winner. But he is going to try to prove, despite 60 judges saying you lost 60 to zero. I mean, whoever winds up 60 to nothing, 60 to zero judges said you lost that election. There is zero evidence that that election was stolen from you. He still wants to try to prove and show and convince people that might be on the fence about this, that he actually won that election. What does it tell you that a convicted felon can win an election in America in 2024, though?

19:47What is your party doing wrong or what is going wrong? Well, you know, apparently we did something wrong because he was elected after, you know, what I thought was a pretty piss poor job between 2016 and 2020. And then sending a mob to Capitol Hill to overthrow the election. I was there in the chamber that day, by the way, I'd just been sworn in like a month earlier because mine was a special election. I think it says that, you know, we didn't run the kind of campaign and didn't communicate with the voters in a way that they felt a lot of confidence in us, that we were focused on the wrong thing.

20:29And we weren't focused on the issues that they obviously care about, which is pretty basic stuff. I mean, they want us to address the cost of things, their own personal finances to try to make their lives better and their safety. People care about those things. When you say safety, what do you mean? I think that could be border security. It could be law enforcement. It could be, I mean, I think safety also means that you have decent health care. So I think we have some stuff to run on and we can focus and narrow down a message on the right thing so we can win elections. And all indications are we're likely to win a lot of elections.

21:10We had a state Senate race in Texas flip by 30 points. I mean, where Donald Trump won it by 17, the Democrat just won it by 15. We've seen that over and over again. We now have a Democratic mayor in Miami. That hasn't happened in a long time. so i think what donald trump sees if he sees the writing on the wall here he's going to lose big in november and that's why he's going to go grab the ballots that's why he's saying we should nationalize the elections that's why he's saying pass this crappy legislation here which is going to make it really hard for people to vote especially if you don't have a passport if you're married and your married name isn't on your this is all the forms of idea that he's saying you'll have to take with you.

21:54Yeah, it's beyond basic. So it's voter suppression. It's birth certificates and it's passports. Well, I wouldn't say it's suppression. It's just make it really hard for people to vote and disenfranchise a bunch of people. So the elections will take place in November. They will be free, but will they be fair? It's hard. He's going to try, but it's really hard to affect an election in the United States in a way that changes the outcome. We have over 2 ,000 counties. It means we have 2 ,000 county recorders. Congressional districts overlap counties. My state, Arizona, we have 15 different counties and county recorders.

22:33Now, I think you could do it, but boy, it takes a huge effort. And that's why he wants to nationalize the election. If you nationalize it and you make the federal government run it, now it's just running through one office. Instead of 2 ,000 entities, you have one entity. It gets a lot easier. You control it. Senator Kelly, hang on there. We'll be back.

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23:54the news agents usa so mr kelly i wonder whether we can turn to the munich security conference the big set piece event which last year jd vance spoke out and scared the bejesus out of europe with all that he said about free speech and loss of civilization and all the rest of it and it was more kind of accommodating message for Europe. You have been there. Were you surprised? What did you find that was kind of unusual, interesting? Was it positive? Was it negative? Oh, it was really negative. I'd been there before a few years ago. I don't go every year. It's because of scheduling issues. And, you know, I had to run two very competitive races in a row.

24:35But I'd been there once before and feels like a different place, different conference, different issues. You know, J.D. Vance basically kicked the Europeans in the face a year ago. I thought Rubio, I know Marco Rubio very well. I served on the Intelligence Committee with him for the end there. He was the chairman. Was it the speech he should have given? No. Was it better than what J.D. Vance did a year ago? Yes. Initially, I felt like because of the speech, the mood changed a little bit in the positive direction. And then folks started really thinking about what he had said. And then it sort of changed back.

25:18My sense in meeting with European prime ministers, deputy prime ministers, defense ministers, foreign ministers, was there is a tremendous amount of loss of trust between the United States and Europe. And I knew that going in. And by the way, if you're the prime minister of Denmark and Greenland, who I met with at the same time, I think loss of trust is a overly optimistic view that they have. They are now, I hate to say they're afraid of us. They are angry. They are angry with the United States that we would put them in this situation, that this president and people in the administration, and by the way, also people in the media.

26:03When Donald Trump started talking about taking Greenland by force, I was shocked with the people, you know, talking heads on Fox News who are now talking about how this is a good thing. We should do this. Or other U.S. senators saying, of course, we should have Greenland. I mean, just I mean, Mike Pence was amongst them. Actually, I remember listening to an interview around that time when he was saying, well, we don't want to do it by force, but, you know, strategically, it's the right thing to do. I mean, they've all fallen into line. Yeah, just taking people's stuff. But, you know, these are our allies.

26:36And it took us a world war and 80 years to get to this alliance that has been the bedrock of security and safety for all of us and economic security for all of us. And maybe we've done a crappy job of explaining why this is important to the American people. I think that's fair, that even Democrats in the White House have done a crappy job explaining why the investment in our allies and these alliances help us, help us economically, make us more safe. But what Donald Trump did was so un-American. in. So if you were Canada or Europe now, of course you've lost trust, right? Would your message to them be, don't worry, we're coming back?

27:25Or would it be frankly, yeah, you should sort out your own strategic alliances? You know, Carney's trying to do this sort of trade route with Venezuela and Japan and Mexico and the EU that completely leaves America alone. Is he right? I think no, I get why people are upset. And I'm always going to be fair. You know, some of the stuff that Donald Trump said in his first administration with regards to like defense spending here in Europe. If we want to give him credit for that, sure, I'll give him a little bit of credit. Defense spending went up, you know, bigger burden sharing, you know, has happened over these years.

28:01But it didn't make any difference, Senator. So last June, as you know, NATO agreed to higher defense spending. And come January, he's still threatening. And he's still threatening. Right. But he's going to be gone someday. And we don't necessarily, you know, have to get back to where we were. Maybe that's not the end point we want, but maybe there's a place we can get to that's better for Europe and also better for us. And I mean, we've got so many challenges out there, especially if you want to get into China for a second and where that country's going. We need to stick together. And I know with the right administration, the right person in the White House and we win some seats in Congress, we can get back to a place where we can start to rebuild that trust and we could all be in a much better situation.

28:48Okay, what would your advice be to those prime ministers in Europe or the presidents in Europe that you have met? Is it to play nicely and never say anything that offends Donald Trump? Or do you need to stand up to him? The second thing, you can't capitulate to this guy. He's a bully. I mean, what do you do when you were in high school? What do you do to a bully? You punch him in the face. People have to stand up to him. Countries have to stand up to him when he is doing something that is not in the best interest of all of us. But you look at the British prime minister who looks like he doesn't want to pick a fight with Donald Trump at any moment and that he wants to kind of play nicely and go along and he gets a second state visit that no other elected president has ever had before in this country.

29:37What do you think? Well, you don't see that from the Canadian prime minister. Right. So you see a different a different approach. I don't think that's the right approach. You know, I think if you think it makes us weaker. Yeah. And I think the outcome you get is you just, you know, you reinforce in his mind that this is the right approach. When he went after Greenland, what I think really happened is the American people stood up to him and said, hold on a second. You're talking about invading the territory of one of our allies and enough people stood up to him. He said, OK, well, I'm not going to do that then.