Will Trump bring martial law to Minnesota?

0:01This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:10What's happening in Minnesota right now defies belief. News reports simply don't do justice to the level of chaos and disruption and trauma the federal government is raining down upon our communities. They're pulling over people indiscriminately, including U.S. citizens, and demanding to see their papers. And at grocery stores, at bus stops, even at our schools, they're breaking windows, dragging pregnant women down the street, just plain grabbing Minnesotans and shoving them into unmarked vans, kidnapping innocent people with no warning and no due process. Let's be very, very clear. This long ago stopped being a matter of immigration enforcement.

0:50Instead, it's a campaign of organized brutality against the people of Minnesota by our own federal government. That is the Democratic governor of Minnesota, Tim Waltz, describing the actions of ICE agents on their street. Trump has just threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act in Minnesota. What would that mean? Essentially, the Insurrection Act gives you the right to put federal troops wherever you like. In essence, it's saying that America is facing a state of emergency. Is that really true? Welcome to the News Agents USA. The News Agents USA with Emily Maitlis and John Sopel. It's John. It's Emily.

1:39And Emily back from on this side of the Atlantic after what seems like months and months. My gap year. Your gap year in South America, which I haven't heard anything about yet, which once we get this recording done, we're going to discuss. But let's focus. I'm going to be your personal drone. Yeah, exactly. Well, events on the kind of northern tip of North America are what concerns us here, because what is unfolding and has been unfolding in Minnesota over the past week, as Tim Wolfe, the Democratic governor, has said, is shocking. Scenes that you just wouldn't believe happening in America, where there are snatch squads roaming around in unmarked cars, stopping anyone who they think may be a bit brown or maybe a bit Somali, grabbing them, asking them they've got to prove that they are US citizens.

2:28And if they haven't got a passport on them, they're taken away somewhere until such times as they can prove that they are genuinely there in America legitimately. It looks like something from another age in other countries whose histories you look at and think that is all pretty dark. Yeah. America, much of America or maybe half of America was slapped across the face a week ago today when we heard of the death of Renee Goode, the woman who was shot a point blank range in the head three times. and instead of launching an investigation into how that happened, into why the ICE agent happened, I mean, you will have seen the multiple videos and I know you've discussed it on the pod in the past, but instead of there being any kind of attempt to hold an investigation into what happened, what we heard was there'd be an investigation into the campaigning efforts of her widow, of her place within the anti-ice support group.

3:36And essentially what this has done, the message it sent out, is one of immunity. This is not about the past. It's about what ICE agents are allowed to carry on doing. And last night, sure enough, clear as day, comes another shooting in the same city of Minneapolis. This time it's a Venezuelan man shot in the leg, thankfully not killed, happened on Wednesday night as tensions once again rose. And so to go back to the Tim Walts take on this, yes, he was Venezuelan and yes, they may have been in a position where they were trying to find out his status or ask for his papers. But what kind of a world has America turned into when that is the response to shoot in the leg or to shoot a point blank range or to shoot a woman in her car dead?

4:35Look, this is a country that has a First Amendment, that has a right to protest, that is enshrined in the Constitution. But in the behaviour of the ICE officers, you are seeing an extreme intolerance of protest. From the remarks of Stephen Miller, the deputy chief of staff at the White House, very close to Donald Trump, You are hearing him say ICE agents have immunity and almost impunity to do what they want. And if anyone gets in your way, that's a kind of felony and you should just not take any notice of the protesters. And also, America has a great tradition of libertarianism, of a certain freedom to live your life and to be foreign.

5:23And if you're white, life's pretty good in America if you're on the right side because you're not going to get picked up. But if you're brown or black or look like you may have got immigrant blood in you, then you seem to be absolutely fair game for any ICE officer to detain you and demand to see your papers. I think what has become clear in all this is that this is about a spectacle and it is a performance and it is essentially a raising of the fists, a come and get me. Trump has sent these officers and you're going to hear later on the podcast from Ben Smith of Semaphore, who tries to put some of this in context for us and makes the point that the officers actually are often quite young, often quite naive, may not want to be in the place that they find themselves.

6:14but essentially are being put in these places where they are riling up protesters who are then responding to the presence of ICE agents, who are then doing stuff that they may regret too. In this case, the officer was actually caught fleeing somebody who began attacking them with a snow shovel and a broom handle. So, you know, not guns, not knives, but makeshift weapons of a sort. and essentially Trump, I think it feels like, is trying to bring to a head a clash. And we've seen this so often. If he can get protesters angry enough to start attacking the ICE agents, then he gets the place where he can say, well, clearly there's disorder in a state of emergency.

6:59We need riot police. We need federal agents. We need the Insurrection Act. This all plays into the Trump playbook perfectly, which is look at all this chaos on the streets something must be done. Look if I'm about to go down a rabbit hole please forgive me because I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist. I kind of always think that these things are always overblown. But it's almost like Donald Trump is trying to engineer the need to have the Insurrection Act imposed. Because if the Insurrection Act is imposed it means that he has got the right to send federal troops anywhere he likes. He can override any state governor, any city mayor he likes.

7:42He puts those troops on the ground. November sees the midterm elections and it's an elections that the Republicans really can't afford to lose. Because obviously, if the Democrats have suddenly got control of the House, they're going to launch investigations. The subpoenas will be flying potentially more indictments. life is going to become really uncomfortable for the Trump family, for Donald Trump and for those around Donald Trump. So if you think you can't afford to lose the elections, what you can do is you can't cancel them. But if you've got the Insurrection Act, you could put federal troops in polling stations in certain areas where Democrats have to win and have to win big.

8:24And it will drive down turnout. And so when we saw just as we came into the studio, that Donald Trump was threatening the Insurrection Act and invoking it because of what is happening in Minneapolis. I could not have been less surprised. Yeah, and I think that explains why. When you hear from Minnesota's Mayor Jacob Frey, a man who has previously told ICE to get the fuck out of his city, he's now adopting a tone which is, I think, deliberately trying to cool the waters. and he's saying to protesters, go home, precisely because he's read the tea leaves in this and understands that actually what you don't want is to find that your own protesters are somehow to blame for what is going on in the city right now.

9:13If it were your city, it would be unacceptable there too.

9:17Ben Smith:And for anyone that is taking the bait tonight, stop. That is not helpful. People, go home. We cannot counter Donald Trump's chaos with our own brand of chaos. And I have seen thousands of people throughout our city peacefully protesting. For those that have peacefully protested, I applaud you. For those that are taking the bait, you are not helping, and you are not helping the undocumented immigrants in our city. You are not helping the people that call this place home. So taking the bait is really interesting. Either he's saying, I don't think that you're actually from this city. You've come in to do this, which we've also seen in the past, outsiders who have come to riot in a city.

10:08or else he's saying if you're feeling violent because you see ICE officers, now is not the time to act. Just go quietly home. And I think both of those add up to the same thing, which is don't be stupid enough to be provoked. Yes, this guy is provoking you. Do not get provoked. I was talking the other day about how among the Latino community in America, where Donald Trump did exceptionally well at the last presidential election, his support has been absolutely hemorrhaging because you know any latino person with a u.s passport or without is fair game for an ice agent to be asked you know who are you can you prove your identity can you prove you're an american citizen and i think it's really pissed off huge numbers of the hispanic community in america who think what the hell i'm being treated like i'm a criminal suspect now i don't like this at all and so i think that there is a political consequence to all of this.

11:02And I think it's interesting as well that ICE falls under the Department of Homeland Security and the Homeland Security Secretary is Kristi Noem, the former governor of South Dakota. And she's very all in Trump, as you might imagine. And she was on CNN with Jake Tapper the other evening. And she's obviously defending the behaviour of ICE agents and condemning the protesters. And Jake Tapper drew the obvious parallel with, well, hang on, why is it bad for these protesters? But on January the 6th, it was just fine. I want to show some video to you right now and ask, what is the appropriate response for the police officers in this situation?

12:03Those are law enforcement officers being physically attacked. By this standard, would any of those officers be justified in shooting and killing the people causing them physical harm? Every single situation is going to rely on the situation those officers are on. that they know that when people are putting hands on them, when they are using weapons against them, when they are physically harming them, that they have the authority to arrest those individuals. The president pardoned every single one of those people. And make sure that they're getting justice for their actions going forward. President Trump pardoned every single one of those people.

12:37And every single one of these investigations comes in the full context of the situation on the ground. And that's one thing that President Trump has been so focused on, is making sure that when we're out there, we don't pick and choose. which situations are in which laws are enforced and which ones aren't every single one of them is being enforced under the Trump administration and the clarity of the law stands and if people don't like it these members of Congress elected officials should go change the law and make sure they have that debate and policy I just showed you video of people attacking law enforcement officers undisputed proof undisputed evidence and I just said President Trump pardoned all of them.

13:16And you said that President Trump is enforcing all the laws equally. It's just not true. There's a different standard for law enforcement officials being attacked if they're being attacked by Trump supporters. We just saw that. This individual and these instances and these investigations all have to be taken and done and done correctly in context of every situation that is happening. I mean, that is just word salad, right? For a start, they haven't investigated the ICE agent involved in the killing of Renee Goode. We just heard that there would not be an investigation. So Christy Noam there is trying to reconcile the thing that's staring her in the face, which was when protesters, when insurgents, when a rioting mob attacked officers on January the 6th of 2021, nothing was done, or at least they were tried and then released and pardoned and they became the heroes, you know, the hostages, all this crazy talk from Donald Trump.

14:13It was his first act on the day of the inauguration to pardon them. I remember well because I went to the federal prison where they were. And yet she cannot explain why those people were pardoned and these people are being dealt with as criminals because they are protesting. And it goes back to what Tim Walsh was saying at the top, which was, frankly, this is not about immigration anymore. This is about dissent. So it's not really about whether Renee Good was, you know, putting an officer in danger. I mean, not not the least of which is if you look at the laws that apply, if you look at the ICE regulations, if they can remove themselves from the path of danger, then they should never be using a lethal weapon against the person involved.

14:58So it's not really about self-defense. It's not really about immigration at this level. it is about dissent with the administration, which just actually sounds like political violence. Look, it is very dark. It feels very un-American. Sure, the policing of protests in America is very different from, say, what we're used to in this country. I mean, you know, the sort of almost military grade weapons that are being used on the streets of Minneapolis just wouldn't happen in London in anything like the same way. So, yeah, there is a difference, but it's also something else. I think that this is a show of strength that Donald Trump can do what he likes, when he likes, where he likes without consequence.

15:48And until such times as there is proper pushback or the Supreme Court rules that this is unacceptable, then he will carry on. because for the moment Congress seems unwilling to act to stop any of this. And I do think that this raises a really important question now for the Democrats because if you frame it as a question about immigration, then they are terrified of going near it. You heard, I mean, Jacob Frey, the mayor of Minneapolis, who we just played out, was asked on Fox News if he was against, you know, do you think I should be disbanded? Do you think we've had enough advice? And he says no, because he doesn't want to fall into what Democrats think is the trap of being anti-Trump's immigration plans.

16:33But if you don't see it as a question of immigration anymore, if you do see it as a question of a paramilitary, if you do see it as a question of political intimidation, if you do see it as a way of basically using the Insurrection Act, as you say, to stop people feeling able to go to the polls, to go and vote, then this is something that the Democrats need to grab hold of and grasp because it is going to be a 2026 election issue, whether they want to recognise it as one or not. This is scaring people across America. And if they're running away from it, then I have to say, as a voter, you'd kind of be thinking, well, who do I go for?

17:17Where do I go? Why would I vote for you? Look, one of the perennial issues of American politics, fun frankly, we try to avoid on the News Agents USA, is the cliffhanger of is there going to be another government shutdown? Because normally it's so hard to explain. And the details of what might be included in an omnibus bill to allow the government to stay open and keep paying its staff is pretty convoluted stuff. And it's kind of it's real beltway Washington stuff. However, it is possible that you could say that funding for ICE as it's currently construed will not be. We won't accept that. And so it is possible that you could see not falling into the trap, exactly as you say, of saying we don't believe that ICE should be funded.

18:08Because, of course, you know, then you're oh, so you're just open. You want open borders and you want everyone to flood into this country. But there are ways of saying what ICE is doing is unacceptable, un-American and unconscionable. Expensive. Up to six times what they normally spend on the same budget. Yeah. And as you say, to provide a show, Donald Trump is a visual politician. He's brilliant understanding the visuals. And boy, is he putting on a show right now in Minneapolis. It's just that an awful lot of US citizens are the victims of it right now. In a moment, we'll be speaking about those ice raids, about the shootings in Minnesota and about the media landscape with somebody who is completely plugged into that universe.

18:57Ben Smith, who is the co-founder of Semaphore, joins us next.

19:13The News Agents USA. Well, joining us now, I'd say, hot off a plane. Very nice to see Ben Smith from Semaphore, co-founder of Semaphore, and the co-host now of the Mixed Signals podcast. Ben, I think this year has started at such a pace. You know, we are at sort of peak flood the zone right now. So I could be starting anywhere with you. But following on from the discussion we've just been having and another shooting in Minnesota last night, the hands of ice. I want to just take the temperature for an American who is deeply connected to how these stories are being told. You've reported yourself for years.

19:58You've seen the changes come in. What does America feel like right now in the middle?

20:04Ben Smith:I mean, I think that the shooting in Minneapolis was a real escalation in terms of, you know, a country in which on one hand, the federal government is doing all sorts of unprecedented things. Trump is pushing the limits in particular of how he uses the Department of Justice to go after his enemies. But if you live in New York City, actually, this is all pretty irrelevant to your life and life goes on pretty much as normal. And I at least noticed and felt like in the last week, there's just a heightened sense of connection to this kind of out of control national story outside Minneapolis, outside Washington, and outside the people who are spending all their time on Blue Sky already.

20:44And if you are part of a community that has organized, you know, to warn people when ICE is coming, we've seen a lot of these sort of voluntary groups, community groups. We think Renee Good and her wife was sort of part of some of that organization. I mean, are people ready to give that up now? Is that what this has changed? Are people thinking you're no longer safe if you're community organizing?

21:10Ben Smith:You know, I think there are two very splits, as often in the United States, and I suppose in the world now, there are two totally different narratives of this story. And one is these out of control mass dice agents, you know, snatching people off the street with no warning, sometimes citizens dragging them out of their cars, pulling their guns. If you consume conservative media, if you listen to the White House, what you see is these young cops trying to do their jobs, by the way, totally legitimately. They have every right to arrest people who are in the country illegally and being harassed very, very aggressively by mobs of people who hate them and who know the law.

21:51Ben Smith:You're not allowed to touch them. You can get within a foot of them and scream insults at them. And again, I think that the White House chose this confrontation. They chose to send these agents into these cities where everybody hates them. But I do think that some of the coverage misses the part of what is such a tinderbox. When the agents in these videos seem so stressed out, it is because they are surrounded by hundreds of people who hate them and are screaming insults at them, are threatening them potentially, or they feel threatened. And it's also an atmosphere of real political violence in the U.S.

22:26Ben Smith:I don't think it's crazy that these agents are worried somebody's going to take a shot at them. And so, I mean, I think that doesn't really go to the policy. Like Trump chose to send these armed mass agents into the parts of the country where they're most hated. It's not going to be the most efficient way to capture undocumented immigrants. In fact, a more efficient way might be to raid workplaces and to go after employers. That's what most of the world does. They've chosen not to do that. They like the theater of the armed agents chasing people around cities. But I do think it's a slightly more complicated story than sometimes you say.

23:03It sounds like you are actually quite sympathetic to the ICE agents themselves.

23:08Ben Smith:I mean, I think that some of the social video just doesn't quite capture the amount. I mean, I don't think they're having a good time. I mean, again, I'm not sure that they've like these are people who chose to do this. Right. And for whether for money or because they're true believers in the administration's cause, you know, like the idea of getting paid to jump out of vehicles wearing masks and grab people who are in the country illegally but aren't, you know, aren't doing any harm to anyone. You're saying they did choose to do this. Yes. Right. Yes. But that said. And I guess you get to choose whether you shoot a protestant.

23:41Ben Smith:And in fact, it's been reported that ICE is having a lot of trouble even internally getting its recruits to go to these cities. It's lowered the standards for recruiting vastly to just try to get bodies in. And, you know, Trump obviously likes the idea of having this sort of paramilitary force running around the country doing this. I think it is also, you know, it's worth noting. It is actually within the federal government's remit to arrest people who are in the country illegally and deport them. That is the thing that these protesters are trying to stop. So it's not I think like the White House chose to escalate, chose to create these confrontations that I think really were inevitably going to start leading to American citizens getting shot, among other things.

24:22Ben Smith:But it's not what they're doing isn't illegal. It's interesting. You're sounding pretty sanguine on this. And Joe Rogan. I don't mean to sound sanguine, but I'm just trying to explain it. Well, OK, so you use the word sort of paramilitary and Joe Rogan has gone one further, I think, and has called it America's Gestapo. I mean, is he over the top? I mean, that's how it looks, doesn't it? Like, you know, masked agents grabbing people off the street. It does. I mean, to us. Demanding their papers. Yeah, it's wildly outside US tradition. And when you've got CBS, who we'll come on to talk about, hopefully, but they put out last night what looked to be an unverified statement that the ICE agent involved in the killing of Rene Good had internal bleeding, an unverified claim from the administration.

25:11And I guess a lot of people now are wondering about the role of the media in all this. I mean, is it CBS's job, do you think?

25:21Ben Smith:To sort of produce what? I mean, you know, I think, you know, if you report something like that, it has to be true. It better be true. Your sources better be good. And it's hard to know when people go with anonymous sources. Parts of this administration tend to be pretty reliable. Parts lie a lot. It takes us into the story of the media right now under Trump. CBS has seen this complete turnaround. We've got Barry Weiss from the Free Press, who's now the editor in chief. It's been quite a journey for her from the New York Times. I wonder how confident you are in what we used to call the mainstream media or the TV channels now, cable channels, whatever, news channels to do their job.

26:04I mean, not very.