160: Lessons Learned From Two Decades Of Senior Military Leadership | Colonel Ed Arnston

15:22Colonel Edward Arntson III:and then you're going to kind of flatline, you know, what's the saying? Water finds its level, right? And then you're probably going to move out.

15:31Nick Bare:Yeah.

15:32Colonel Edward Arntson III:Now, some folks, they still might have that hunger, but maybe it's not, hey, I've still got this hunger, but I'm going to step away from the military and I'm going to do that in my community, in the business world or whatever. But some folks, you know, they get comfortable, right? And then it's the, well, I don't, you know, I want the promotion. I want the money, you know.

15:56Nick Bare:Without the responsibility.

15:57Colonel Edward Arntson III:Without the responsibility and without the ability, excuse me, to, you know, keep progressing, keep improving and figuring out new ways to just get better as a leader.

16:09Nick Bare:Yeah. Remind me, does OER stand for Officer Evaluation Report? It does, yep. And then NCOER is Non-Commissioned Officer Evaluation Report. That is correct. and these are essentially feedback reports on how an individual is performing at their role. 100%. What is the cadence in which these are created and shared?

16:34Colonel Edward Arntson III:Most often annually. Okay. They can be created sometimes if there's a leadership changeover, which is called a change of rater. So, you know, I'm working for Nick, but Nick changes out of his job because he's going to another job and I've worked for him six, seven, eight months. Okay, that might generate an OER or an NCOER for our enlisted folks.

16:58Nick Bare:The reason I ask this, I think back to when I was in the Army as a platoon leader and the OER and NCOER burden, if you will. Sure. It felt like a burden. It was just like, hey, we got to do this annually. Yep. Let's just get through it. to them. Now, as I reflect back on the importance and value of the OER and NCOER, I wish then I would have valued it more than I did. As we were talking, when we were working out, how important it is for people under you when you're in a leadership position to know what success looks like. How do you measure success? And if someone who's working for you and you're leading someone doesn't know or understand what success looks like, it's really hard for them to work towards a vision or a metric or a data point.

18:01Nick Bare:Now I'm thinking back as we're talking, man, I wish I would have really understood how valuable those NCOERs were because it would have allowed me to develop subordinate leaders in a more

18:15Colonel Edward Arntson III:effective way absolutely it is a great time um and i'm glad you've reflected on that nick and it's um it's a great time to bring folks in and and just say hey here's where i see you here's where you stand because the fact of the matter is in the army we have we have so many incredible people you're judged against your peers. And so only so many people can get promoted. Only so many people can get the top block OER, even with so many great folks. But it's a great time to bring folks in, sit them down, and give folks feedback. I spent a lot of time, especially in my last Brigade Command, sitting down with folks and talking through with them where they stood, right?

19:10Colonel Edward Arntson III:And then what the development plan for them was going forward. And sometimes you've got to spend a little more time with maybe the middle and not bottom, but just maybe some of the folks that didn't get a top block because you've got to sit down and explain to them where they need to improve. Sometimes your, your Uber top performers, you know, they just need a, you know, Hey, I need you to do, I need you to work on these one or two things, everything else, keep doing what you're doing. And they're like, okay, I got it, sir. Appreciate it. And you know, those might be pretty short conversations with your Uber high performers, but some folks that, that you want to kind of pour into and develop a little bit.

19:51Colonel Edward Arntson III:Those are, those are the conversations that actually can be a little bit longer, you know, especially as you move on in the army and these reports become consequential for promotion and moving on.

20:04Nick Bare:Do you think that the army or the military as a whole is effective at the evaluation report process? And let me add some context to that. Sure. Feedback is hard. It is. Candid conversations, hard conversations are really hard. Yes. and it's much easier to avoid them than to confront them. And there's an ask the question. I mean, when I transitioned out of the military and I started building VPN, those first couple of months and even years were easy from a leadership perspective because I didn't have many employees to lead. And I have to make many hard people decisions or have many hard conversations.

20:53Nick Bare:But when I had to start letting people go and having the hard conversations, that's when it started getting challenging. That's also where I started to really grow and develop as a leader. Those conversations used to be very challenging and they're still difficult, but you become comfortable in the uncomfortable conversations because you know the growth that happens on the other side. Absolutely. How do you think, because I mean, I'm managing and running a company that has 45 people. We're talking the military. We're talking the army. How many people are in the army?

21:31Colonel Edward Arntson III:Let's see. I think you're talking a million. I think it's 1.1 million total. And there's about a half a million, just under half a million in the active duty force in the army.

21:42Nick Bare:So if I think of just like that multiple and the amount of leadership that has to be so effective and strong. Yeah. How effective do you think the evaluation report process is? Are those hard conversations being had or can they be better?

22:01Colonel Edward Arntson III:Just to be very frank, I think some people do it better than others. I had captains that came in and sat that I sat down with in my previous brigade command. And I haven't really got to with 3rd SFAB now where I command now. I haven't really had a lot of those conversations yet because, you know, we're kind of usually OER season, NCOER season is like spring and summer, right, as folks are transitioning. So we haven't had that yet. But in my previous command, you know, I sat down with captains and sometimes they'd say, you know, hey, sir, this is the first time anyone's actually counseled me. You know, this is a captain who's maybe been in the Army six, seven or eight years.

22:44Colonel Edward Arntson III:And, you know, I kind of think that's criminal, you know, that someone didn't sit them down and go through with them, you know, strengths, weaknesses, development plan. What do you want to do in the Army? What are your goals? And so, simply put, I think some folks do it better than others. And I would say, if you're doing it right, you can take care of, you know, there's a personnel in the civilian world. it would be HR side of this. If you're doing it right, you can take care of a lot of people. There were a lot of company commanders in Grey Wolf in my last brigade, I think that are going to get promoted to major because we knew the right way to do it in terms of how I wrote reports for folks, but then also to take care of the most quality folks in the organization that really deserved it and that wanted to go on and continue and to continue to serve as majors and continue to be senior leaders in the Army.

23:56Colonel Edward Arntson III:And yeah, a lot of those conversations, they can be difficult, especially with folks who maybe think, hey, I think I'm at this level. And then you as their boss are telling them, hey, I'm sorry, I don't see you there. And here's why. And I think, you know, we were talking a little bit about, you know, tone, tone range fan. I think you can have very sincere and you can have very direct conversations with people, you know, that are effective in the leader development realm if your tone is right and you're not, you know, it's not a, it's not a, hey, my name's Ed and I don't like you. And so, you know, here's your center of mass report.

24:43Colonel Edward Arntson III:Goodbye. It's here's where I see you relative to your peers. And we got, if you want to continue to, you know, continue to have an opportunity to advance, here's where I think you need to improve. Right. And have some data, have some metrics for these folks or have, you know, it's very, very tangible examples of, hey, there was a time where I was really looking for you and counting on you in this, you know, in this exercise, in this time period. And I didn't really see what I was looking for out of you. And I think for folks, who are, if you're having those honest conversations, I think you get good self-assessment out of folks too, where they sit back and they're like, yeah, sir, if I reflect on that, I probably wasn't at my best then.

25:39Colonel Edward Arntson III:And then we can have a dialogue about how to improve instead of kind of arguing with the ref. Well, that's BS and you didn't see this and you didn't see that. And that, you know, those conversations can be a little bit counterproductive. Right. And I've actually, I've had conversations with folks that write extremely consequential reports, especially for the majors that I served as, you know, it's called their senior raider in the Army. I had one guy in particular had done good work, but I wasn't necessarily seeing him with the other top majors in the brigade.

26:26Colonel Edward Arntson III:and I told him where I saw him, and he was very professional, very calm, and he kind of argued his case for why he thought, hey, sir, here's why I think I'm in the top tier instead of kind of the center tier, and we had a really good conversation about it. He did not get upset. He did not get defensive. right his tone towards me was he was still humble he was still very respectful and he very clearly laid out what he had done and some of those things I frankly hadn't taken into consideration and I kind of stepped back I went and talked to my personnel officer and I said hey how can we do

27:10Nick Bare:this how can we take care of this officer and he was like we this is kind of how I think we can do

27:17Colonel Edward Arntson III:it you know and i was like okay let's do that and i called him about 10 minutes later and said hey man i'm gonna bump you up and he was like hey sir thanks i really appreciate it right but if he had been defensive if right if he had kind of come at me you know sort of like you know arguing with the flag on the play i i don't think that would have gone well for him but in in his case right we were having very direct, very sincere conversation about areas where I thought he fell short. But then he's like, hey, what about all these areas where I think I've done really well?

27:56Nick Bare:And I was like, man, it's a good point.

27:58Colonel Edward Arntson III:You know, let me go back and see what I can do. I was going to save this part of the conversation

28:04Nick Bare:for later on, but I feel like this is a good segue. Talking about the tone range fan.

28:10Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah. And we will link this article. Okay.

28:14Nick Bare:that you created within the show notes of this episode. Okay, awesome. I think it's really powerful.

28:21Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

28:22Nick Bare:As I was telling you earlier, I'm currently reading The Energy Bus by John Gordon. Awesome book, yeah. It's a great book. It's pretty simplistic. Very simplistic. In form and storytelling and just the message of positivity. But considering yourself a leader, energy and tone are so important. Absolutely. Now I was just like thinking about like what leadership is. Leadership is its vision, its communication, its courage, its energy, its tone, its humility. As you talk about selflessness, rooted, firm, steady. And if you can get energy right and get tone right, that breaks down a lot of barriers.

29:08Nick Bare:It does. That people put up in almost a defensive position. It does. You're talking about just how that major had a productive conversation with you in a healthy defense to his evaluation. That's right. The opposite of that, like you talk about in this article, intellectual arrogance. Yes. Often another cornerstone of our worst tone. Intellectual arrogance is driven in large part by the fact that a leader's or subordinate's ideas are the best and that everyone else's are the worst. which is driven by pride, ego, arrogance. Yes, insecurity. Insecurity. I personally really dislike when I'm going to have a conversation with someone and I'm faced with intellectual arrogance because you know that that conversation is going to be unproductive.

30:04Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yes.

30:05Nick Bare:And that you almost have to like really guide them into where you're trying to get to.

30:10Colonel Edward Arntson III:Absolutely.

30:12Nick Bare:But I want to hang around this tone range fan a little bit and how you got to this realization and these concepts because as I was reading through the article you shared with me, I sent this to some of my advisors. Okay. I sent it to our leadership team, our brand team, because people can understand this. Yeah. Mashed with energy. Yes. It will make them a much more effective leader through communication.

30:38Colonel Edward Arntson III:Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, for me, it came about, I developed it in Command of Grey Wolf. And it was something I put on my whiteboard and something I had been thinking deeply about in my first six or seven months in Command of Grey Wolf. So early 2024. And I thought about it in terms of, you know, in the army and then especially, you know, kind of in the combat arms side, you have a range fan for a weapon system, right? So you apply the range fan to the terrain to see, especially in a training environment, to see if, you know, the training exercise that you're about to do in most cases, you know, in this case, it'd be a live fire exercise.

31:30Colonel Edward Arntson III:Is this going to be safe relative to where we have people and live ammunition and targets, and then how the maneuver fits with all that. And so I started to think about how much as a leader, your tone can be used positively, when it's kept in the way I was thinking about it is, hey, when your tone is within this range fan, it can be applied very effectively and you can have the effect, intended effect you want to have as a leader. And when it's applied the wrong way, when we get outside of what we call the surface danger zone for tone, whether you're a subordinate or a leader, when you get on the far right or left of the tone range fan, you start to have problems.

32:27Colonel Edward Arntson III:It starts to be more about you and less about the development of your subordinates or the betterment of the organization. And so I have had the opportunity to coach a lot of folks using the Tone Range Fan to help them improve as leaders and really just help them see, do you understand that this is where you're being perceived in how you are engaging with your team, right? With your staff, with, you know, if it's a company commander, with your company commander, if it's up to your boss. And so I've been able to, you know, I think make some breakthroughs with folks using that tone range fan to help them really just understand their impact, right?

33:22Colonel Edward Arntson III:Whether it's up and out or whether that's down and in.

33:24Nick Bare:You know, what's interesting about tone is that you have to be aware of the tone that you are using when you're talking to someone. And I'm sure we've heard or said it ourselves, I don't like that tone. That's right. I don't like that tone you got going with me right now. Yeah. Because even if you're saying something and you attend, but you actually feel something else, your tone will depict your true feelings. That's right.

33:51Colonel Edward Arntson III:It's a hundred percent. I had a guy, he worked for me in this last command. He's still in Grey Wolf. He's the brigade operations officer. And we had served together at a previous duty station. And it was one of my first meetings. I was a battalion commander at the time. And I had forgot about this interaction. And the guy I'm talking about, his name's Steve. Steve reminded me, he goes, you know, sir, it's kind of funny you wrote an article about tone. And I was like, why is that? He goes, do not remember one of your first interactions as when you're a battalion commander with, and this other guy, his name was Brett.

34:32Colonel Edward Arntson III:And Brett was one of my company commanders. He's a great, great guy. We're still in touch. And Brett had said something to me. And there was a little arrogance in, and Brett's a great leader, great company commander. But there was a little, there was a touch of intellectual arrogance and probably slight contempt in his voice as he was talking to me about something we were doing training-wise inside the battalion. And I just turned to him and said, hey, Brett, I don't like your tone very much.

35:04Nick Bare:Right, I think I did a battalion commander two weeks or less.

35:07Colonel Edward Arntson III:And it was kind of a shot across the bow of like, oh, okay. You know, and that kind of right-sized the conversation very quickly. But I, you know, I'd probably been thinking about it all the way back to then, that was 2019, all the way up until I wrote the article last fall. So yeah. And if I could share one story about this, and this was an area that I was very proud as a leader. I was really glad that I had the opportunity to do this, but the young man that I'm talking about, I was able to do this with him. We probably spent 30 or 40 minutes in his office laying this out. And this is a guy who is extremely smart and very talented.

36:04And I attended his company training meeting, which is, I did that very often in brigade command. And then afterwards I said, hey, let's go to your office.

36:14Colonel Edward Arntson III:And we went to his office and had a little conversation to have a conversation. And I said, hey, excuse me. How do you think your relationship is with your boss right now? And he kind of put his head down and he's like, sorry, it's terrible. And I said, okay, whose fault is that? He's like, it's my fault. And I was like, okay, got it. Now let's get to work. and I started drawing out the tone range fan on his whiteboard in his office. And we went through it in terms of how do you think you need to engage with your boss, right? To have the impact that you want to have, not only for your company, which is a very, very good company, but also for your battalion and for the brigade, right?

37:10Colonel Edward Arntson III:and I laid that out. This was right before the Christmas holiday in 2024. We come back, we go, we come back from the holidays. We go right into the field, right into a big training density prior to another rotation to the National Training Center in the spring of 25. And it was his boss, one of the battalion commanders came to me and he said, I just said, hey, how's it going with this officer? He's like, sir, I don't know what you said to him, but I am working with a different human being now than I did for the first six months of command. He is, the tone is different. The way that he approaches problems is different.

38:00Colonel Edward Arntson III:The way he's leading is completely different. And I don't take credit for that. That's on this officer, this young man who did an incredible job and incredible self-reflection on, I got to change my ways. Like what I'm doing is I'm not leading myself well. I'm not leading my company well. I'm not being a good teammate. I'm not being a good subordinate. Absolutely flipped it. Performed incredibly during the training density. Incredible at the National Training Center, which is very, very hard. you know you know you did it right as a as a lieutenant incredibly hard you know month four or five weeks there in california and crushed it and he's still leading that company and doing a phenomenal job right and it the tone range fans really would allow us to have that conversation him to visualize that and then absolutely flip it to where you know he was you know his boss told me he's like sir frankly he is a joy to work with now right and that that transition happened over about two months to where previously he would have been like you know this guy he's a burr in the sock you know what i mean like this is not you know burr in the saddle kind of deal like this is not enjoyable so i feel like it it is an un undervalued skill yeah and focus is is tone yeah

39:27Nick Bare:Now thinking back to some of the best leaders that I've worked with, worked under, worked alongside in the business world, but also during my time in the military, they had a very appropriate tone given the circumstance. and we were talking about this earlier as well, but the best leaders that I worked under and learned from were very consistent. Yes. Their tone was very consistent. Yes. When they were trying to coach and mentor and develop, it was a very reassuring coaching tone. Yes. It was calm. It was steady. They would use a more aggressive tone if needed.

40:15Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

40:15Nick Bare:And the message came across. It was loud and clear. Absolutely. Like, hey, this is serious.

40:20Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

40:20Nick Bare:But knowing when to apply the right tone to certain situations and circumstances, but being consistent when you use that tone. Absolutely. I'm even thinking back to just being a leader in my household. Yes. In my family. Yes. With my kids. Yes. Knowing when to apply the right tone. Yes. So as my kids are developing, because they're young right now, as they're developing and learning, they know what the tone means. but if I'm inconsistent with my tone, my kids will not respond to a fluctuation in that tone because I'm inconsistent.

40:54Colonel Edward Arntson III:That's right. And I will just tell you for myself, that is an area that I'm working on the most, is leading my family at home and applying, making sure that I'm consistent with what I wrote in that article and how the tone range fan is laid out. when I engage, you know, with my wife, you know, with, with my son, with my daughter, uh, to make sure that it's, that it's consistent and that, and that it is focused on, on their development. Right. And it does not become about, about me at all. Right. It's about them and about the message that you're trying to communicate and a lesson, uh, or a principle that you're trying to teach them and then also you know just with with my wife right that it is that everything is on you know equal footing right and that i'm always trying to have excuse me i mean we've been married for you know this summer will be 23 years congratulations yeah thank you and um she is She's such an incredible, incredible godly woman.

42:11And that as I communicate with her, with Tracy, that I'm always, that I've got my best tone, right?

42:19Colonel Edward Arntson III:That I'm, you know, that I'm humble, that I'm deferential to her, you know, in how I'm engaging with her, right? As we progress, you know, to hopefully, you know, 24, 25, 26 years. because those are the things that matter the most, you know, to your significant other. I feel like I should get my hand tattooed energy and tone.

42:42Nick Bare:That's right. Because I know there's moments where it's earlier in the morning. That's right. Kids wake up extra early. You know, Steph and I use the wrong tone of each other. And we both look at each other like, let's not go there right now. That's right. And that's the power of tone. In this article, you describe the best tone, the coaching tone, the compassionate tone. And I highly recommend everyone who's listening to this episode, go read this article. But you say that humility is the cornerstone of our best tone.

43:18Colonel Edward Arntson III:It is.

43:20Nick Bare:At what point in your career did you learn that? The power of humility.

43:28Colonel Edward Arntson III:early in my career I've been very fortunate I worked for a lot of a lot of great leaders and but certainly as a young as a junior officer you know probably far too sarcastic you know thinking other people are way more screwed up than they actually are, right? I'm sure you can relate to that. You know, most like platoon leaders think everyone else other than, you know, at the rifle platoon level, stink, you know, or screwed up.

44:05Nick Bare:There was some ego and arrogance coming from a rifle platoon.

44:08Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah, right. And you need some of that when it comes to, you know, like operating in combat. You need some of that confidence and a little bit of that arrogance. but I would say for me, you know, I went to, I went to 1st Ranger Battalion as a, as a, as a captain. I was a pretty young captain though. And I haven't talked about a lot that publicly, but I failed at 1st Ranger Battalion. I did not do well there. And I think a lot of that was a lack of humility on my part. You know, I thought that I had made it. This was it. You know, these guys are lucky to have me. And that did not translate well at all.

44:58Colonel Edward Arntson III:And certainly in an unbelievably high-performing organization like any of the Ranger Battalions or any of the other special operations units in our military, that did not translate well. And so much of that was on me. And that's where I really started to learn and really started to see the value of humility. Because as I looked around at other folks who were, whether they were succeeding in that environment that I was in at the time at 1st Ranger Battalion, or as I progressed in the Army, you're seeing folks that are unbelievably successful, but they're super humble about their own success, about their achievements.

45:46Colonel Edward Arntson III:and as I went into my next assignment, I actually went to the old guard and served there as a company commander and as an operations officer before I went to the staff college. And it was there that you start to really see the value of humility. Some of the folks that I had the opportunity to work for there, Dave Anders, Paul Edgar, work alongside Ed Mathitis, who's now gonna be a general officer friend of mine, James Stoltz, who's also likely going to be a general officer. These guys are unbelievably humble human beings about just their own personal capabilities, but then also kind of some of the things they've done in their career.

46:32Colonel Edward Arntson III:And you really started to see that I did as the cornerstone for really high level leadership. you know comparing your experience with say ranger battalion and the old guard and and contrasting that to uh you know the traditional army yeah i'm curious just some of the different leadership challenges because as i look at units like ranger battalion and the old guard.

47:07Nick Bare:Like they are the best at what they do. They do the basics very, very well. Oh yeah. They lock those down. And probably a lot of type A, alpha mentalities, mindset. It's probably a lot of ego and arrogance. And when you put a lot of people like that into one place, you need really strong leadership. You know, it's like putting wild dogs in a room. It's like, you need the alpha dog to control those dogs. What was that experience like compared to going back to, you know, a traditional line unit? You know, obviously leading and managing and developing people at the core fundamental level.

47:52Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

47:52Nick Bare:But just differences in personality and drive and ambition and achievement and success.

47:59Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah. No, it's a great question, Nick. I would say, I'll talk a little bit about it from my perspective in the old guard, just because I spent a little more time there. A lot of the company commanders at the time had come off of, at that point, some guys were, a good friend of mine, Steve Wallace. I think Steve at that point had done three full combat tours, maybe two in Afghanistan, one in Iraq at that point. and several of my other friends that were there that were company commanders that were peers. They were off their second or third combat tour and they were coming to the Old Guard after that for both another leadership developmental opportunity, but then also in the Old Guard, most of the time you're not going to deploy.

48:55Colonel Edward Arntson III:I actually deployed from the Old Guard, which is a very interesting experience.

48:58Nick Bare:Yeah, reading that in your bio It was the first time that unit deployed since Vietnam.

49:02Colonel Edward Arntson III:Vietnam. Yeah. Very interesting experience. But just to talk about kind of those other alphas, I would say that's where we really saw. And one of the things I really experienced in the old guard that I loved was the teamwork amongst those other alphas, those guys that were just, they're fantastic leaders in their own right. And that's where I think we saw. And I think other guys, everyone saw that in each other. They saw that, hey, this guy's a great leader. Anthony's a great leader. Andy's a great leader. Other folks that I worked with. And how do we work together for the betterment of the battalion, of the regiment, et cetera.

49:51Colonel Edward Arntson III:That was a really neat thing to be a part of, to learn and grow from observing those other folks. But not in a, you know, yes, everybody wants to have the best company, etc. But it was not in a hyper-competitive, you know, I'm going to do whatever it takes to be better than you sort of deal. how do we work together and create some teamwork and camaraderie, right? Amongst, amongst those folks that are all high level folks. That's challenging to do. It's very, very challenging to do. And I would say that is where in our case, a lot of really good peer leadership came into play where good dialogue amongst us, us peers really helped carry the day.

50:46Colonel Edward Arntson III:You know, as I remember back to my company commander days there, you know, really good peer dialogue about, okay, you guys are doing this. You know, what about that? We, we're, we'd like to do this. And just that, just really, really good teamwork in, in the genuine interest of everybody succeeding, not I need to be better than you.

51:07Nick Bare:Yeah. I'm kind of currently working through that here in BPN.

51:14Colonel Edward Arntson III:Okay. Right now, I would say our branding creative team is at its peak in terms of being effective and functional and working together, being a

51:31Nick Bare:true team. Yes.

51:33Colonel Edward Arntson III:But it took a lot of time and intention to get there.

51:36Nick Bare:Yeah. One of the things I've learned over time, I mean, you look at sports teams. Yes. You can put the best players in their position on a team, but if they don't work as a team, 100%. the team loses.

51:51Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yes.

51:51Nick Bare:And it sounds so fundamental and easy, but it's not. Yes. It is very challenging. Yeah. Our brand and creative team, we have, in my opinion, the best of the best. designers, videographers, filmmakers, editors, directors. And we thought just by putting all of the best into a room, we would then have the greatest output and teamwork and camaraderie. But what ends up naturally happening is someone thinks they're pulling more weight. Someone wants to be better than the other. Someone thinks that they're pulling the others ahead or behind. And that's naturally going to happen. So coming in and really developing subordinate leaders, seeing peer leadership step up, brotherhood, sisterhood, helping each other and really realizing that the only way this business succeeds and the brand team wins and grows is together.

52:55Nick Bare:Yes. There is not one person who's going to pull all of the weight. And that concept for me a few years ago was so easy and simple, but I've learned that people management and development and team building, it's challenging and it's not passive. It is active development.

53:15Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. It is really, really challenging, especially when, if we're doing something and maybe working on it together or whatever, but I want the credit for it. Yep. Right. I want the credit for it. And, you know, I've done that before, like a hundred percent. Like I've, you know, you're doing something and it's like, I want the credit for this. Like, this is a great idea. This is a great whatever, you know, especially younger as a junior officer, even as a young major. and you start to realize like, boy, that's not productive. That's not helpful at all. I had the opportunity to go as a young major, excuse me, to attend the School of Advanced Military Studies at Fort Leavenworth.

54:06Colonel Edward Arntson III:And one of the big things that the school still teaches young majors is you want to be more than you seem, remain in the background, right? And it doesn't matter who gets the credit, right? Whether it's Nick that gets the credit, whether it's Ed that gets the credit, it doesn't matter. And I think eventually most leaders, especially most leaders that, you know, perceptive leaders, they know who's behind, you know, an initiative, a project or whatever, right? but I think and I've observed several folks through my time in the army that they don't care who gets the credit and they're just you know but you but the folks that are there they know even if someone else is getting recognition they know hey that was Nick's idea right right Nick was behind that initiative and so much credit's got to go to him for for that And that's where I think it takes perceptive, self-aware bosses, leaders to recognize that and folks that are beneath them.

55:22Colonel Edward Arntson III:And sometimes… That might not be right away. And that's frustrating to folks. Sometimes it might take some time to say, I really thought that was Nick, but making someone up, right? Actually, Bill did a lot of work on that project, and that's incredible. I want to make sure I go recognize Bill. But I think that's up to leaders, to folks that are in, you know, CEO type positions, you know, command positions to recognize that who's actually driving things down at the lower levels.

55:57Nick Bare:Yeah. I've also found that when culture is really strong within a unit, culture will police itself. You know, if you have someone who is stepping on a line.

56:10Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

56:10Nick Bare:Who is being ego driven and arrogant.

56:13Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

56:13Nick Bare:sometimes the leader doesn't even have to step in. That's right. The organization will pull that guy or girl aside and say,

56:19Colonel Edward Arntson III:Hey, I don't work here.

56:22Nick Bare:That's right. I love seeing that.

56:24Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

56:24Nick Bare:That's strong.

56:26Colonel Edward Arntson III:I'll give you a great example. As a young lieutenant, we were out doing some training. We were getting ready to go to Afghanistan. And I had said something to, and it was not,

56:42Colonel Edward Arntson III:um it was it's a it now it's a really funny story when i was a 24 year old you know 23 year old lieutenant getting ready to go to afghanistan it wasn't very funny um but you know the kind of the story got out that like i was telling our first sergeant how to do training and our first sergeant This guy named First Sergeant Mike Sunshine, absolute legend, won the best ranger competition as a young sergeant. I mean, guy was just an absolute stud. Somebody you just, like me as a young lieutenant, looked up to this guy as like, this is what a senior not-commissioned officer needs to be. Jumped into Panama, right?

57:23Colonel Edward Arntson III:Just total stud.

57:27Colonel Edward Arntson III:And it was one of those things that, you know, game of telephone. by the time, you know, what's the old adage? The, you know, the lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to put its pants on.

57:39Nick Bare:One of those types of situations.

57:40Colonel Edward Arntson III:And I was like, wait, what are people saying? But anyway, it was that I was trying to tell the first sergeant how to do training. We were doing some live fires, but the lieutenants in the company, my peers, came to my office and they're like, hey, it was kind of, you got to watch your tone with the first sergeant. And I, you know, as a young officer, I was like, number one, good on those guys that they came to me and they're like, hey, you know, watch it a little bit there. You know, young buck, you're brand new in the company. And I was like, okay, whatever I said didn't land the right way. Wrong tone, wrong timing, whatever.

58:22Colonel Edward Arntson III:So I need to be reflective of that and adjust moving forward. so but it was 100 % like my peers came to me and they're like no no no no like this isn't going

58:35Nick Bare:to fly in in Apache company first the final first yeah so that's great yeah it was good uh I was just thinking of this story this actually happened a few months ago this goes to show that you know you constantly have to uh be aware of your tone and you're still going to make mistakes yeah no no matter how long you're doing it. We were on this call a few months ago and I presented a business strategy and some initiatives to the group before they were vetted and before we really refined them. I shared them prematurely. And one of our advisors was on the call with me. And after the call was over, he asked me to hop on a separate call.

59:22Nick Bare:Let's just catch up real quick. And he kind of let me know like, hey, we need to talk about these things before we share this to the larger group because that was premature and those weren't vetted and we didn't lock those in yet.

59:36Colonel Edward Arntson III:And I was offended as the founder and CEO of BPN.

59:42Nick Bare:And I said it with a tone, loud and clear, loud and clear, got it. And I knew as soon as I said that, I was like, that wasn't right. That wasn't right. Yeah. Because that conveyed the message from me to him. I don't care. Yep. I don't care what you're saying. That's right. Moments later, as I just reflected briefly, I realized I was in the wrong. I shared that information prematurely. I knew I was wrong.

1:00:11Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah. I was defensive because I was called out for my mistakes.

1:00:17Nick Bare:Sure. And no matter how much time, experience, how many times we've done it, we're still going to be offended because it doesn't feel good to be wrong. That's right. A hundred percent. And that, and that's where even, you know, and that,

1:00:34Colonel Edward Arntson III:and it's in the article, right? That's, you know, in your case, right now, I don't know if you had the opportunity to follow back up with, with your advisor, you know, the guy who called you, that's the virtuous cycle, right? That's where that comes into play. Like whether you're a, whether you're a subordinate, whether you're the lead or you're the leader. Like, that tone stunk. And that did not land the way I just had to, I just did this with Tracy, you know, last week about a conversation we had. And something that I said that I did not mean to land poorly, landed very poorly for her. And, you know, I, you know, I had to, some of it was my tone.

1:01:16Colonel Edward Arntson III:And then some of it was choice of words. Like I had to walk that back. And then, you know, it was okay. She forgave me, you know, move on, all good. But how often does that happen in the business world, in the military where that loop doesn't get closed, right? And we, you say something or you do something as a leader or as a subordinate, and then it's never followed up on. There's no like, shoot, my tone stunk. I really just need to go, you know, and I think it's really powerful for a subordinate to say, hey, sir, hey, ma 'am, like, I was a little off on that. Apologies, you know. I didn't have my best tone.

1:01:58Nick Bare:I will in the future, you know. There's a lot of respect there.

1:02:02Colonel Edward Arntson III:There's a lot of respect there. And I think if, you know, as I know folks have done that with me, hey, sir, you know, I don't think what I said landed okay. And sometimes it might be overblown on a subordinate's part. You as a leader might say like, hey, no, we're good. Like, I didn't take anything from that. Like you were just expressing yourself, you know, a lot of opinions, a lot of ideas were getting thrown around. Like, we're good. And then like, oh, okay, good. Like the boss lady, boss man is good with what went down. And I think that can also create trust, right? That builds trust. That builds cohesion.

1:02:38Colonel Edward Arntson III:Like, hey, even if there's an interaction that's not great, we still can then circle back on that, right? That's what the virtuous cycle is in there for. Like we can still circle back and say, hey, and you can even, you can do it as the leader. Hey, you provided this, this feedback in, in the meeting. Like that wasn't great. You know, that landed poorly with a lot of your teammates, a lot of your peers, et cetera. Like, you know, and then you can, here's why. Ah, all right. You know, that's how you're developing folks to, to continue to be better, to continue to improve as a leader through the coaching, through the counseling in those instances or through compassion on the other side of it.

1:03:24Colonel Edward Arntson III:You know, if something happens in someone's life, work life, personal life, et cetera.

1:03:30Nick Bare:I think sometimes it's hard to, I'm just thinking on my personal experience. It's hard to correct tone because it feels like they didn't really do anything wrong. or someone says something with a tone and you want to correct it, they didn't really say anything wrong. It's how they said it. Yeah. So it's like, I don't know if I can correct it, but I think it should be addressed. Yes. This is the way I perceived what you said based off your tone.

1:04:03Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

1:04:04Nick Bare:Is this what you meant? And if so, let's have a further conversation because both energy and tone, they leave deposits that's right and the more positive the more better the more negative the worse but you you keep depositing in one or the other that's right over time that builds trust or distrust that's right uh anger or joy yep uh resentment yeah all those feelings kind is like they build, they compound.

1:04:36Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yep. And also, and then hopefully what it builds too, right, is folks have the ability to say, like, again, even in the moment, it gets a little heated, you know, are you creating an environment as a leader where folks can circle back with one another and be like, hey, we were, you know, it got a little heated, you know, my apologies. You know, and then other person, maybe they got heated too. Hey, my bad too. Like we're good. And then we can find some common ground on things we agree on or whatever it is. And I think that's just important as a professional in the military because you're doing things you're passionate about, training for combat, training, potentially preparing for war, developing leaders, et cetera, or in the business world.

1:05:22Colonel Edward Arntson III:But having that and setting that tone, that environment as a leader where, hey, sometimes it might get, like we're passionate about the stuff that we do. So sometimes maybe that's going to come across in a tone that's not perfect. But we got to have a little bit of grace, right, as teammates and as leaders. And then as long as there's, I think, the appropriate self-assessment and reflection of like, yeah, I didn't do that the best. Or the leader giving the feedback or the subordinate coming up. I think that is really, really important and helps build the right environment where, hey, we're all mission focused on whatever that is, building the best supplement company in the world, building the best brigade in the army, building the best battalion in the army, whatever that is that you're trying to do.

1:06:14Colonel Edward Arntson III:Those things, then that becomes the focus, not any sort of animosity or any sort of personal rivalry that can develop between folks.

1:06:23Nick Bare:Yeah, passion. Passion can definitely influence tone. Yes. But I don't think it can be an excuse for. That's right. Because I'm a passionate person, a lot of things, and my tone will be influenced by that passion.

1:06:41Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yes, that's right.

1:06:42Nick Bare:So I want to go back a little bit. You graduated and commissioned as an infantry officer in 2012. Two. Sorry, sorry, 2002. Yep. 2002. how soon after commissioning in 2002 did you go to afghanistan uh it was just over a year later

1:07:05Colonel Edward Arntson III:so did the um was actually a gold bar recruiter that you know for the for the rtc folks i was a gold bar recruiter there you go yeah pretty good gig yeah uh and uh that's where i'm at where I met my wife, Tracy, who was working at North Dakota State University at the time. And then went and did the, you know, obligatory nine, 10 months at Fort Benning, the basic course in Ranger School. And then by October, so commissioned in May of 02, by October of 03, we were in Afghanistan. So yeah, with my battalion. What was that deployment like?

1:07:45Nick Bare:What was the environment in Afghanistan like at that time?

1:07:52Colonel Edward Arntson III:The environment in Afghanistan at the time was, it was not like it became in 06, 07, 08, where it was really, really kinetic. My battalion was unbelievably fortunate. We actually didn't, we had some folks that were very seriously wounded on that deployment, but we did not lose anybody on that deployment. But a tremendous amount of resources at the time, early 03, had went into Iraq. And so Afghanistan was a little bit more of an economy of force theater. and for a while in, especially in Eastern Afghanistan, our battalion, 1st of the 501st, we were kind of one of the very few shows in town. So we were extremely busy doing a lot of missions in Eastern Afghanistan in late 03, early.

1:08:50And we stayed there till we left in the summer,

1:08:54Colonel Edward Arntson III:you know, August of 04. So we were there about 10 months. but we were extremely busy for that whole time operating in Afghanistan and a lot of that was you know when you look back now and read things about what happened in Afghanistan that was a little bit of a lull period in terms of what the Taliban were doing and other folks were doing because they you know obviously everyone's familiar with kind of the bombing campaign and you know, in late 01 and 02, when we were going after bin Laden. But then after that, things kind of settled down in Afghanistan as the Taliban kind of retreated a little bit, as our presence ticked up.

1:09:38Colonel Edward Arntson III:But then there's a tremendous amount of focus on Iraq. And so that was a, for me as a young leader, a tremendous environment to learn in. My platoon sergeant, a guy by the name of Mike Parrish, who I've talked about a lot, was unbelievably formative in my development as a young leader because Mike was that guy, and we have a friendship that still lasts to today, was a guy that came alongside me and really helped coach and teach me as a young officer in terms of how to lead effectively at the platoon level in the infantry And then also kind of give me the confidence that I needed as a young officer that, yeah, hey, sir, good decision here, but we got to work on this.

1:10:33Colonel Edward Arntson III:You know, we got to work on delivery for this. We got to work on, you know, you can't rush to the objective before I have security set up, you know, stuff like that. And so that environment for me as a young officer and the leaders that I had, Tony Gibbs, company commander, he's a general officer now. Harry Glenn, my battalion commander, was fantastic. Val Kevney, the battalioness 3E, was fantastic. He was later my battalion commander in third of the 509th. Around so many good leaders. And so that was a great deployment for just learning and growth in an environment that, you know, it was tough.

1:11:15Colonel Edward Arntson III:It was combat. but we didn't lose anybody. And the environment was not, we talk about Iraq 06, 07, very, very, very much different environment

1:11:29Nick Bare:on that deployment. Yeah, my cousin, Matt, he was with the 101st in 06, 07. Okay. So I was watching him come back home and going back overseas on multiple deployments during that time. And obviously very kinetic then. Yes. And I watched him transform into this man. And that's actually what influenced me to want to join the military. Okay. I watched him go from this boy to this man.

1:12:02Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

1:12:03Nick Bare:And coming home on R &R, and I was like, I want that in my life. Yeah. I want to grow and be challenged and change like that.

1:12:13Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah. I'm curious, being in college, ROTC, how did your perception of what a leader was before

1:12:29Nick Bare:commissioning change based off of your early experience being in combat with a platoon? What did you think leadership was? And then what did you actually learn leadership was?

1:12:45Colonel Edward Arntson III:I learned so much in that, in my role as a, as a platoon, I was a platoon leader for that platoon, first platoon Apache company, first to 501st for, I don't know, 18, 19 months, I think is how long I led that platoon. But one of the things that I really learned in that platoon, and I had some fantastic, Mike Paris was a fantastic platoon sergeant. I had some really good squad leaders too. And one of the things that I had never really, we don't really talk a lot about in ROTC was the ability to, look, you're the platoon leader, you're still in charge, right? It's not a committee. But that doesn't mean that you can't take input and feedback from your non-commissioned officers on how we're going to go about things.

1:13:38Colonel Edward Arntson III:And that was an area of leadership that I think as a platoon leader that I really grew in, in terms of when to say, hey, this is what we're doing, even if it's unpopular. But then also those times when, hey, Joe Hancock, Keith Hira, Mike Hensley, what are your ideas about how we should go about, whether it's attacking this objective, setting in this small kill team, whatever it is. give me your feedback, right? At the end of the day, it's going to be my plan approved by my company commander, but I wanted their feedback. It was important to get their feedback as more technical experts as NCOs. And so that was an area of leadership that as a young officer, I think I really grew in that really wasn't, we didn't focus on, there's certain there's pure leadership in ROTC, but not as much of the like, hey, there's going to be times when you need feedback from your non-commissioned officers and you got to listen to them because it can't always be just top-down delivered guidance for everything.

1:14:56Nick Bare:Yeah, that's good. You got to own the plan. You have to own the outcome, whether a success or failure. Yeah. But there's nothing that says you can't collaborate on the strategy and how you get there. I actually, as you were sharing that, I used to do the same thing as a platoon leader. And then I started doing the same thing when it was scaling and building BPN. I thought I had to go off into the corner and build out the whole plan and then present this beautiful plan and strategy. And then everyone goes and executes. And then what I started finding is I was stepping on people's toes trying to do their job for them when they have a different perspective.

1:15:38Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

1:15:38Nick Bare:They have different ideas to bring to the table.

1:15:40Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

1:15:41Nick Bare:And it's so much more effective if we collaborate on the plan and the strategy. By the end of the day, I have to own whether it succeeds or fails.

1:15:51Colonel Edward Arntson III:That's right. Absolutely. We're doing, I'll just give you an example right now. So my command now, you know, third security forces, citizens brigade, we're, I'm training and preparing some folks for an upcoming deployment. And it's a pretty unique mission in the Middle East. It's a mission that I've never done. And it's really unique. And so we're going through a mission rehearsal exercise next week. And we're going to do a rehearsal on Monday afternoon. And I invited all my battalion commanders to come. And I say, you don't have to come, but you're welcome to come. I was like, we've got a framework of a plan.

1:16:33Colonel Edward Arntson III:You know, what guy used to work for, he called the, you know, we've got a might work plan here. So we got a might work plan, but I've never prepared for anything like this. And so we're going to step through what we have planned. But, you know, these are battalion commanders. These are folks with 20 plus years, you know, in the army, super successful, talented folks. I'm happy to get your feedback to refine this and make it better because like, yep, Ultimately, it's going to be my mission rehearsal exercise and my plan. But I want your feedback because I've never done anything like this. And so if you have a different perspective on how we can best prepare our advisors to go overseas, I'm all for it.

1:17:16Nick Bare:Do you guys do that during the workday? Yeah, absolutely. I'm just thinking through some stuff right now and how I can compare my time in the military to building a business. Yeah. And I've said this before, but what was so unique about the military, I'm sure you can add some coloring in context onto this. You're learning to lead people. Yes. And those people, those individuals are not influenced by money, salary, power, bonuses. I mean, they know whether they work 20 hours a week or 100 hours a week, they're getting pretty much the same pay. That's right. And when you compare that to the workplace in America or the world, it is not that way.

1:18:11Nick Bare:That's right. It's okay, I'm working overtime. How much more am I making? That's right. What am I getting? It's transactional. and that's what's so powerful about our military is people are there for a mission that's right selfless yep dedicating and committing their time their resources sacrificing a lot absolutely for this country it's absolutely amazing and you don't see that anywhere else but our military really yeah and as i'm just thinking about like these rehearsals and asking more people to do more stuff and it's because they actually care.

1:18:47Colonel Edward Arntson III:Absolutely.

1:18:48Nick Bare:And they care about the mission and the success and they want to see a win. Yes. That was very unique for me about my time in the military.

1:18:58Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

1:18:59Nick Bare:And I'm not going to lie. I'm very fortunate and grateful. I have a great team.

1:19:03Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah. This team here will work whenever, on whatever, wherever.

1:19:09Nick Bare:Yeah. There's never a complaint. so i'm not comparing this to to bpn but i know out there in the world it is not like that that's right and that's what makes the military and the culture there and the people and the leadership

1:19:24Colonel Edward Arntson III:such a unique experience it it's i mean the stories that you know anyone who was was in the military certainly anyone who's in the army the stories that you have about the dedication of folks, probably at times even unhealthy. In Gray Wolf, I always made it a point to recognize all of our maintainers, all of our mechanics. Twice, both times before we went to the National Training Center, we did a brigade level formation and awarded all of our maintainers, every single one of them, right, who was in good standing with the army, an award. because that is how important their work was to the brigade.

1:20:11Colonel Edward Arntson III:It's an armored brigade, right? Hundreds of vehicles, right? Tanks, Bradleys, Paladins, right? And if those guys and gals aren't firing on all cylinders, like we're not going anywhere. And the dedication of some of these mechanics, right? That are, I mean, after the National Training Center, you go through something that's called regeneration operations. And you do it there, you know, and you have maintenance bays and stuff like that, if you recall that from your time. Just go out there, five, six o 'clock in the morning, you're going to find mechanics that slept on a tank. You're going to find mechanics that slept on a Bradley.

1:20:54Colonel Edward Arntson III:And they're not getting paid any extra. They're just that dedicated. and they worked until they absolutely couldn't anymore. They got to crash out and they're going to get up and they're just going to start again. And that level of dedication to me was always, is and always has been so awe-inspiring, you know, in the army that, you know, sometimes when you reflect on that, you're just floored. Yeah. Because that's not happening at your local Firestone. You know what I mean? it's not you know well i gotta just sleep on bill's car here to get it up for tomorrow because bill's got to go to work at 8 a.m it's like no we're gonna close at six and you know i'll get to bill's car tomorrow you know after i've you know had coffee and had a staff meeting and whatever um and and that's fine that's a different world um but the level of dedication and the level of commitment from our you know from our soldier sailors airman marine is marines is is incredible and if I could just share one thing there was um I gave let me see I was a brand new young colonel and we were doing something called project convergence uh it was part of uh what army futures command does it's where you get a lot of technology initiatives and emerging technology and you test it you know in a training ground in this case it was the national training center And I was there as a young colonel working in the Army Futures Command, which is now Training and Transformation Command, a new command.

1:22:36Colonel Edward Arntson III:And I was checking out in the PX. I was just, I think, buying lunch. And there was a young soldier behind me. And he's like, hey, sir. Clearly, he was, I think, leaning towards getting out of the Army or something. And, you know, you've been doing this obviously for a long time. What is the motivation? What keeps you going, you know, 20 plus years in the Army? And I paused for just a couple of seconds and I said, and I don't remember the young man's name, but I said, hey, you know what? For me, it is the ability for officers, non-commissioned officers, warrant officers, civilians, soldiers, all to come together and complete a mission, right?

1:23:26Colonel Edward Arntson III:That is what is so powerful about our army and our military. The ability to always, wherever you go, right? Hey, we got to build the team. We have got to build the team. one person one NCO one officer you know one civilian isn't going to do it for everybody we have to build the team how do we do that effectively and then go about accomplishing our mission that is what has always for me been so so so powerful and rewarding about you know for me specifically being an officer in the army

1:24:02Nick Bare:yeah it's just a unique and different experience that to be honest, I miss. And I tell this to Steph all the time, but I wish so badly that and hope that my kids get to have the same experience. Yes. Because it was really powerful for me.

1:24:24Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

1:24:25Nick Bare:And I learned a lot. I learned a lot about myself. Yeah. I learned a lot about other people.

1:24:30Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

1:24:32Nick Bare:I learned what it means to truly be selfless. Yes. And be working towards a greater cause, a greater mission, and to make yourself feel small and little. Yeah. And that's been a valuable learning lesson that I think we need to apply to our entire lives. Yes. Make ourselves smaller. Yes. For a much greater purpose. That's right. It's really easy to inflate ourselves and make ourselves look and feel and want to be bigger.

1:25:06Colonel Edward Arntson III:Absolutely.

1:25:06Nick Bare:Because how do we make ourselves smaller? That's right. Going back to what you shared with the tone of humility. Yep. Pride is our greatest enemy. Oh, yes. Humility is our greatest friend. Yes, absolutely. I'm curious, compared to the deployment in 2002 in Afghanistan, Dan, was there a deployment after that that was more kinetic that really challenged you in terms of your leadership abilities and skill?

1:25:40Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah. 06-07 Iraq commanded Able Company, third of the 509th, as a part of 4th Brigade, 25th Airborne Brigade, which had just stood up at Fort Richardson, Alaska. So I was very fortunate. I was a lieutenant in 1st of the 501st, which became the base of 4th Brigade, 25th Infantry Division. That brigade, now it's different. It's 2nd Brigade, 11th Airborne Division now. But for a long time, it was 425. and I had the, I was really, really fortunate. I had the opportunity to go to the career course, right? Which is one of our education development courses for young officers. Do that, attend U.S. Army Jump Master School as well because it was an airborne unit and then go back to Alaska, to Anchorage.

1:26:37Colonel Edward Arntson III:And so I had the opportunity to command as a young officer and I'd been in the army for just over three years when I took command of ACO 3509 and with so many, so many incredible young people in that company, folks that I still keep in touch with today and moved through trained for a year and then deployed in the fall of 06 to Iraq. and then I made it until New Year's Eve of 2006. I was wounded, leading my company in combat. We had just gone out to Western Iraq. We were south of Baghdad and we had just gone out to Western Iraq and I was shot by a sniper talking to some folks. actually killed a young man that I was talking to.

1:27:38Colonel Edward Arntson III:The bullet went through him and hit my arm. So I left theater in early, early 07, but we had already lost three soldiers in Able Company. Staff Sergeant Lane, Corporal Gifford, and Corporal Donica, Dustin Donica. We'd already lost them before I was wounded. and then we would lose five, we lost five more soldiers after that. And I transitioned from the role of, and then I think for our battalion total, I think third of the 509th, we lost 18 or 19 soldiers total in that deployment. So not, it wasn't the worst of all the folks that had gone over there during this time, during the surge. But it was more than many.

1:28:29Colonel Edward Arntson III:And I went from a role as a young officer who, you know, deployed over there at 26 years old. So 26, 27 years old, leading young men in combat, excuse me, during an extremely dangerous time in Iraq where folks, the insurgents are actively trying to kill you every day. Whether it was IEDs, snipers, direct attacks, didn't matter. People were trying to kill you. And I went from a role of being in that every single day for those three plus months I was there as a company commander. And transitioned back home to Fort Richardson where I was wounded, had multiple surgeries, but then now had to memorialize the men that we'd lost as a young man.

1:29:23Colonel Edward Arntson III:And so I'm still processing my own grief. And frankly, I'm angry. I'm 26 years old. I trained with that company, built that company from the ground up. And now I'm wounded. And I had to leave theater to the point of I didn't want to leave theater. I wanted to just, hey, I'll stay and heal and then put me back in the game, coach. and when my commander called me, it was the end of January, Val Kevney told me, hey, I'm going to leave you home to lead the rear detachment team. I put the phone down and I cried. I mean, like crying my eyes out, I was so mad that I couldn't go back to combat with the team that we had built in third of the 509.

1:30:16Colonel Edward Arntson III:and then found myself over the next five or six months especially where of heart where's hard combat giving memorial speeches for soldiers in my company that had passed away and then soldiers from our battalion that that died and we're having almost monthly memorial ceremonies at Fort Richardson for these soldiers who have passed away. Having to deliver casualty notifications to spouses whose husbands have died in Iraq at 26, 27 years old makes you grow up really, really fast. And so, yeah, that next deployment that I went on, very, very challenging. and for me was a hard time in my life there for that year, year plus of losing soldiers that you knew, that you knew intimately, had trained with, but then also having to go back home and memorialize them was extremely difficult and challenging.

1:31:31Colonel Edward Arntson III:And I would often feel really bad because it was hard to get through a speech in the chapel at Fort Richardson without tearing up and welling up almost to the point of blubbering, crying. But those are the emotions that I felt at the time, right? That's how hard those things hit when those young men gave their life in service of our country. on the mission in Iraq. And so, yeah, that was a very, very challenging time. Tracy was by my side the whole time, supported me, was incredible. But it was still, it was a very, very hard time.

1:32:18Nick Bare:Yeah, I can imagine.

1:32:19Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah. Were you able to, in that moment or shortly after,

1:32:28Nick Bare:be able to reflect and maybe think there's something to learn here that I can apply to this next chapter to be a better, stronger, more effective leader. Like maybe I'm being taught something right here or was a lot of anger just coming out of it.

1:32:50Colonel Edward Arntson III:There was some just at the time, I mean, just straight up raw anger.

1:33:02Colonel Edward Arntson III:Because, you know, at the time, and I know that, you know, your faith journey, Nick, and where you are now. And I grew up in a Christian home, had tremendous parents. um and but there were times where i was a little bit you know not angry with god but you're like hey why what is going on with all of this why is this happening why is this happening to me um etc now i i very i kind of came off that pretty quickly and adapted to my role as a leader for my battalion back at Fort Richardson. And I understood why my boss did it because one of the things that I had that some of the other folks on the rear detachment and the brigade, and some of those folks had, they'd been to combat.

1:34:00Colonel Edward Arntson III:They just hadn't been to combat with our brigade. I had the benefit of the doubt when it came to just trust. And I could, you know, my, my boss, Val Kevney, who's a tremendous leader, gave me full autonomy with the rear detachment. I didn't have to ask questions about extending people on leave, doing anything. He trusted me to make the right decisions because I had led for him both in the rear and in combat. And he trusted me to make the right decision. And that wasn't necessarily the case for a lot of my peers. And so I understood why my boss made the decision he made because then he didn't have to worry about what was going on at Fort Richardson, right?

1:34:43Colonel Edward Arntson III:And to work with his, you know, his wife, you know, Kim's tremendous, like one of the greatest humans on the planet, um, to work with her and, and help, you know, set conditions. And at the time, you know, my wife was working for army community service. Um, so to kind of be of service and help folks understand what's going on in theater and then also be of service to my, you know, the battalion forward and what I could do for them and my peers with, you know, property accountability and all the kind of minutia that comes with army leadership. I settled into that role and adapted to it and did well with it.

1:35:23Colonel Edward Arntson III:But initially it was hard, right? Because at the time, you know, you're hard charging, you've trained, you want to be over there. When you're in the fight and to ask, to kind of take that forward, and I'm sorry, long answer to your question. When I actually went, when I had the opportunity to take my company from the old guard to Iraq, I did apply a lot of the lessons. And I wanted to make sure we were not going over there for, we did end up doing some patrolling and things outside the wire in Iraq on that deployment in 2009, 10. but we weren't preparing for that initially and it was but in some of the training and the preparation i wanted to take some of the things i had learned both in combat and in preparing for combat and apply them to charlie company 1-3 infantry to make sure we were as well prepared as possible for anything that came our way so there was learning especially on reflection when I got another opportunity to lead a company in combat.

1:36:34Colonel Edward Arntson III:Different circumstances. Iraq in 0910 was a very different place than it was 06, 07. You could be out driving on MSR Tampa. You could stand on the side of the road. You could have a conversation with somebody. In 06, 07, someone was going to come shoot at you. Or later that night, there was going to be an IED on the side of the road. right? That was not happening in 09, 10, but, or 09, 10, but I wanted to make sure we were as best prepared for our mission as humanly possible. And that was one of the things that I, you know, when I reflected and I had, and I got another opportunity, I was like, I'm going to pour into these guys like I never have before.

1:37:19I can imagine you've seen the best and worst of people.

1:37:24Nick Bare:So, thinking about the preparation for a deployment in garrison, that's one type of leadership requirement. And then the leadership requirements in a kinetic combat zone, Iraq 06, 07. But then as you're sharing this, I'm thinking about the leadership requirements of post-deployment. Yes.

1:37:55Nick Bare:It's leading people in a whole different way. Yeah. It's not in terms of preparation, but it's recovery. Yes. Mind, body, soul. Yeah. And it sounds like in some cases, it's a family thing. Wives step up. Yes. kids step up and volunteer and support whatever it takes to build that team back together, that family back together. Absolutely. Can only imagine how challenging that is for knowledge for the families and the people, but in terms of testing your leadership.

1:38:32Colonel Edward Arntson III:Absolutely. I mean, and some of the, you know, just to give a huge shout out to so many army spouses and just military spouses overall, but especially during that time, you know, from 03, 04 until for about 10, 12 years there where folks were still consistently going to Afghanistan and then into Iraq. Some of the work that our army spouses and then military spouses still do today, but particularly during that time in the army and in the Marines, you're losing a lot of folks in combat. And some of the work and support that our Army spouses provided to grieving families, to families of those who had been wounded.

1:39:19Colonel Edward Arntson III:We had several soldiers in 3rd to 519 that were very, very seriously wounded, lost limbs, burned severely from IEDs, et cetera. The support provided to them, I mean, you want to talk about just being humbled and inspired. that stuff was incredible to witness, right? And see the power of when folks are coming together to help one another. And that still happens all across the military and especially in the army. But that time in particular, when a lot of folks were consistently deploying and then we were losing folks at a pretty high rate, those were some tough times.

1:40:05Nick Bare:so you were in ROTC when 9-11 happened I was a senior I just started my senior year

1:40:12Colonel Edward Arntson III:of ROTC we were doing you and I talked about Ranger Challenge this morning we were we had just finished we had just finished Ranger Challenge PT in the Benson Mucker Fieldhouse at North Dakota State University and I was getting in my car to drive back to Concordia when I heard the news that the first plane hit the tower. And by the time I was walking to class at 930, the second plane had hit the tower and the plane, I think it hit the Pentagon already. And I'll never forget, I was leaving the building to go across to class. Now, all the classes got canceled that day and all the professors told us to go back.

1:40:59Colonel Edward Arntson III:but one of my friends as I was walking out the door he just looked at me he goes hey Eddie you're gonna go to war and he kind of said it in jest but then as I walked out the door and kind of had a solemn moment I was like he's probably right you know we're going somewhere after this type of attack on our country and sure enough as we talked about you know a couple years later, I was in Afghanistan along with a lot of other folks.

1:41:31Nick Bare:Because the first three years of, of your college experience in ROTC, you're not thinking Iraq, Afghanistan, going to war, but everything changes. It changed like that. Were people in ROTC dropping out and enlisting? Did that happen at all?

1:41:52Colonel Edward Arntson III:We might have had a couple.

1:41:58We did have some folks that I remember that were scholarshiped, you know, like four-year type folks that they found a way out.

1:42:11Colonel Edward Arntson III:Got scared. They found a way out of the program and of their commitment. And I'm sure some of that involved paying back money. from their scholarship. And I remember as a Gold Bar recruiter working with folks who were going into a contract year or who were already there and moving towards commissioning and you're like, this person's going to, it's not in their heart. They're going to leave. But similarly, we had other folks that were then became interested and wanted, hey, what's ROTC about? Where is that going to lead me? And how can that lead me towards potentially serving my country?

1:42:58Nick Bare:Was there a shift in the energy of the ROTC department after that? There was. And I think in a very positive way. Yeah.

1:43:09Colonel Edward Arntson III:I mentioned this morning, my friend, Chad Gosney, he became the battalion commander of that battalion. And Chad is an incredible leader. He became a pilot in the Army, Chinook pilot in the Army. He's retired now, but was an incredible pilot, served in the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment for a long time. And Chad had been enlisted before in 2nd Ranger Battalion. And Chad talked a lot about, you know, early on. And that was, you know, what, September? It was so September 01. And then I was commissioned, but I was a gold bar recruiter. So September 02. So about a year after that, and there started to be the one-year anniversary stuff, et cetera.

1:43:51Colonel Edward Arntson III:And I remember, you know, as Chad talked to both his leaders on his staff, but then also the younger cadets about what was going to be required of them and the commitment it was going to take. and it was neat it was neat to see that out of a 24 25 year old guy um who's leading rtc battalion but has enough perspective um and appreciation for what's going to happen in the path that these folks are going to have to follow excuse me that um that he's kind of laying it out for him and inspiring them himself because he was unbelievably fit smart dedicated you know etc so that was neat

1:44:35Nick Bare:I can imagine those are the moments where leaders stepped up or fell behind.

1:44:41Colonel Edward Arntson III:That's right.

1:44:42Nick Bare:And you saw some people really, really step up.

1:44:44Colonel Edward Arntson III:You did. And then we had folks in our infantry officer basic course that were folks that were, you know, we had a mix. We had a really healthy mix of ROTC, officer candidate school, and guys who had gone to West Point. But so many of the guys that had gone or that were officer candidate school graduates, they were just like working jobs, you know? And then 9-11 happened and they're like, I'm going to go become an officer in the army.

1:45:16Nick Bare:I want to join the infantry and I want to go to Afghanistan and fight for my country.

1:45:21Colonel Edward Arntson III:And it was really neat because these guys were, you know, they were working on Wall Street. They were, you know, working jobs in downtown Chicago in the business world. And they're like, yeah, hell no. I'm going to go suit up for my country. And that was really neat to see. And there was a lot of soldiers like that as well that I had in my company in ACO 3509 and all across the Army that 9-11 happened. They were in middle, late high school. And they're like, I'm going to join. I'm going to go serve my country. And it was neat to see and neat to have that. to like in ECHO 3509, you could feel that energy from folks, how motivated they were, you know, how hard they train.

1:46:09Colonel Edward Arntson III:And we're training in Alaska where, you know, six months out of the year, it's freezing. And folks are getting out there and getting after it. You could feel that energy. It was neat.

1:46:18Nick Bare:I mean, you're preparing for a real fight. Absolutely.

1:46:20Colonel Edward Arntson III:A hundred percent.

1:46:21Nick Bare:There's a real mission. It's not this made up. Maybe it will come. No, it's there. it's coming. That's right.

1:46:28Colonel Edward Arntson III:It was not the Krasnovians. You know, it was, you know, it was real.

1:46:31Nick Bare:Yeah. The last thing I really want to touch on, and we briefly were discussing it when we were working out, is this difference between becoming an asset and a liability. Yeah. And if I think about your role over the years, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you are building and creating assets, and you are eliminating liabilities. Yeah.

1:46:59Nick Bare:how has that view as a leader shaped your approach to building your your personal life your fitness your skills your your abilities and others as well and the power of becoming an asset

1:47:16Colonel Edward Arntson III:yeah it's a great question nick and i think like especially in the military and then i'll speak to my personal experience in the Army, which most of that time in the infantry or in units that are preparing to go to combat or go on an operational deployment. You've got to be ready. You've got to be ready, not only from a, like personally, I am ready to go and deploy and do things on behalf of my country.

1:47:50Colonel Edward Arntson III:But you've got to be physically ready to do that, right? You've got to be physically very sharp and keep yourself sharp. The best leaders that I've worked for in the army, they're not just doing physical training, you know, from 6.30 to 7.30 during the, you know, when they've got duty, you know, at pick and installation. It's a lifestyle of staying fit and staying ready and staying sharp. And that so much, the folks that I have seen and that I've seen have a lot of success in the Army, they're doing that consistently. they are prepared mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally to go do whatever they need to do on, you know, on behalf of their nation.

1:48:47And we really have to, you know,

1:48:51Colonel Edward Arntson III:obviously the Secretary of War just came out, you know, that this was, you know, back in the fall, you know, big speech about, you know, standards and making sure that our standards are, We keep our standards up very high, especially for physical training. And I think that is spot on. And it's up to all leaders throughout the military. And, you know, again, I speak to my experience in the Army to do whatever you can to keep the knife sharp for your formation so that they are ready to go. and that they can be an asset for their squad, their platoon, their company, their battalion, their brigade, their division, et cetera, instead of being a liability.

1:49:44Nick Bare:Yeah, I apply it to my own life now, post-military.

1:49:52Nick Bare:You know, I am not training for a race right now, for example. That doesn't mean I'm not running. and I want to be an asset to the world, society, my family, my team. That guides my decisions in terms of the way I train, the way that I eat, the way that I rest, the way that I recover physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. I always want to be an asset. I never want to be a liability, and that's what drives me every day. Yeah, it's a phenomenal approach to have.

1:50:30Colonel Edward Arntson III:I worked for a guy in Alaska. He was our brigade commander on that deployment that was really hard. His name was Mike Garrett, and he retired as a four-star general. So he retired as General Mike Garrett. And he was in incredible shape as a brigade commander. um now you know and hopefully he listens to this but i could still take him right as young captain arntzen uh but he was in incredible shape and and someone had asked him one time hey sir why do you do pt because he did pt so hard i mean the effort and the energy that he poured into keeping himself ready uh as a colonel at the time and that he did for the rest of his career all the way through four-star general was incredible.

1:51:19Colonel Edward Arntson III:And he just had a really good answer. He just said, hey, look, I want to live a long time. I want to be around for my kids and my grandkids, right? And as I see him now, right, as a grandfather in that role, like he's an asset for his family because of how he takes care of himself, how he continues to stay fit, stay super sharp. So he can be an asset for his kids, for his grandkids, for his wife, right? For his brothers, for his sisters, for his aging father, et cetera, right? And that is such a great, like, why are you working as hard as you're working? Like, I'm working as hard as I'm working so that I can live as long as

1:52:07Nick Bare:humanly possible and be an asset for my family right just at a very baseline level even if you

1:52:14Colonel Edward Arntson III:remove the military or anything like that i want to be an asset for my family um going forward yes the quantity of life but the quality that's life as well that's right and not a quantity so

1:52:28Nick Bare:that the quality of others yeah decreases that's right that's right and it's and it's about it's

1:52:34Colonel Edward Arntson III:like you talked about that earlier nick which is a great point like making yourself like small but like it's not about me but like how can i be make myself be a servant to others right how can i continue to serve continue to lead right but as an asset yeah right yeah well sir i appreciate this it's been a great conversation yeah you bet there was one other thing i wanted to hit on a little bit if I can.

1:53:03Nick Bare:I'd love for you to do that.

1:53:04Colonel Edward Arntson III:The, um, on something that I think just might benefit folks in terms of, cause I think a lot of people, the way that they think about leadership, they're not really sure, Hey, what does good leadership look like? Right. We talked about, you know, your energy and tone, right. Which is a great place to start in terms of how you as a leader interact with folks. I developed a little bit of a formula that if I can just share with you, it might help folks just to how folks can think about leadership. This is how I think about it and what I look for in leaders. The first thing is authenticity. Is the person, does the audio match the visual, right?

1:53:54Colonel Edward Arntson III:Is the person being their authentic self, right? And I worked for a general officer who was an introvert. He's a fantastic leader, but he was an introvert. That was, he didn't try to not be that. But in the times where he needed to really be an extrovert, he was, and he led, and he did everything he needed to do and did it superbly, right? But at his core, he's kind of a quiet, introverted guy. And he never tried to shy away from that, right? He just knew when the right times were to have, I'm giving a speech. I'm giving, you know, a presentation on leader development. I can't sit in the corner, right?

1:54:41Colonel Edward Arntson III:We've got to be out there. We've got to project strength, et cetera, right? It's a lot of confidence to know who you are and then own that. That's right. And just be yourself, right? So authenticity, right? Audio match the visual. And are you the person that you are purporting yourself to be? Or are you trying to be someone else, right? The second thing is humility. We've talked a tremendous amount about humility on this podcast as a cornerstone of great tone and great leaders. But are you coachable? Are you teachable? And do you have the ability to say, I made a mistake? as a leader. I did not make the right decision there.

1:55:26Colonel Edward Arntson III:I should have made this decision. My apologies. I'm going to make up for it. Are you humble enough? So is somebody authentic? Are they humble? And then intellectual curiosity, which we hit on a little bit. Are you trying to grow and are you trying to develop as a leader, as a person, right? Not just for, you know, not just for your organization, but as a person, are you generally intellectually curious? You want to learn new things? Excuse me, are you interested in learning, you know, hearing different opinions, right? Or, hey, I've got it all figured out, you know,

1:56:07Nick Bare:you know, I don't need to hear Nick's opinion about X, Y, or Z.

1:56:11Colonel Edward Arntson III:Or are you genuinely a curious and interested person in what other folks have to offer in learning new things and new skills. Authenticity, humility, intellectual curiosity are the numerators. The denominator is competence. If you had all those three things up front, you Nick Bear, CEO of VPN, you are absolutely authentic. Audio matches the visual. Nick doesn't work out. We see the videos. Nick trains pretty freaking hard, right? He is humble, right? He is not always making it about himself. He is promoting the team, what everyone else is doing, et cetera. And he is someone who's intellectually curious.

1:56:59Colonel Edward Arntson III:He wants to learn. Well, Nick, if you didn't know anything about like nutrition science and supplements and how to fuel the body and how to train, my guess is you would not be that great of a ceo for for bare performance nutrition correct right like you you'd be great just as like nick the guy like nick's humble he's you know he's curious he wants to learn but like when we talk about competence in your profession you've got to have that you got to have competence right whether that's as a military leader a business leader et cetera, you've got to know what you're talking about when it comes to, for me, maneuver warfare, combat, leading folks, et cetera.

1:57:49Colonel Edward Arntson III:I got to know what I'm talking about. I got to know what I'm doing in that space, making decisions in combat, in training for combat, et cetera. If I can't do that and I don't know how to do that or lead a staff, lead a team, like you could be all those other things you're not going to be a great leader yeah but where you see those four things i think where you see authenticity where you see humility where you see intellectual curiosity over a rock solid foundation of competence i think you see great leadership and if you start to analyze folks that you're like you know that person looks good

1:58:34but there's something missing you know what i mean like maybe there's a little something

1:58:38Colonel Edward Arntson III:that person they might need a little humility they might need maybe they're really competent but they're missing one area and maybe that can be rounded out by another team member right and then the whole team can improve but for for folks as they look at like what does really good leadership look like? I have found that formula to be really helpful as I look at folks inside the army, outside the army, whether it's a coach of a professional college team, whatever, and I start to look at them and analyze them. I look at it through that lens. Most of the time where you find great leadership, you have those four things in spade.

1:59:20Nick Bare:I love that. I love that to use also for evaluation reports of subordinate leaders. Yes. But one of the questions people ask me all the time is, how do I find a mentor or an advisor? Yeah. I mean, using that formula to evaluate people. Yes. If they will be a good mentor or advisor to you.

1:59:42Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yes, 100%.

1:59:43Nick Bare:I love that you mentioned within humility, coachable and teachable. Yes. I believe a lot of times people just view humility as the opposite of prideful.

1:59:57Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

1:59:57Nick Bare:And it's putting other people first. Yes. Which it is. But you can put others first and still not be coachable and teachable.

2:00:06Colonel Edward Arntson III:Yeah.

2:00:06Nick Bare:And when you are uncoachable and unteachable, you are very hard to work with.

2:00:13Colonel Edward Arntson III:100%. I have found like the best leaders are open to and want feedback.

2:00:20Nick Bare:They want to be coached. They want to be taught. They want to develop. They want to learn. They want to grow. I love that formula. That's great.

2:00:26Colonel Edward Arntson III:Absolutely. So anyway, I just wanted to, that's something that, you know, I've had, you know, it's existed on different whiteboards throughout my time in the army and wanted to share with you and your audience. And hopefully somebody finds that helpful.

2:00:42Nick Bare:Yeah, that's super helpful. well, I appreciate it. I have a lot of respect for you and what you've done. And the few times we spent time together, man of character, man of God, strong leader, the resume to prove the credentials and credibility behind it. And there's a lot of people who talk about leadership and it's another thing to have lived it and experienced it for 20 plus years. So I appreciate you coming on here and sharing some wisdom of what you've learned that can be applicable to not only the military, business, but ourselves, our families, teams. Leadership is like, it's a... It is a keystone to life.

2:01:38Nick Bare:It is an unlock for so much. It is. So I really appreciate you.

2:01:42Colonel Edward Arntson III:Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Thank you for what you and your team do here at BPN. I shared this when we came for one of our sessions in Grey Wolf. You and your team do such an incredible job of inspiring so many folks to you personally and your team. that they can, you know, your motto is go one more. And it's, it is perfect. It inspires so many folks to say, yeah, I saw Nick do this today. I'm going to go another mile. I'm going to do a few more pushups, a few more pull-ups. And so I really appreciate what you and your team do for kind of pointing everyone just a little bit higher of like, I can push a little bit further.

2:02:28I can go a little bit further. I think that is a really neat aspect of what your brand is about.

2:02:36Colonel Edward Arntson III:And it inspires probably more people than you know. So thank you for that. Thank you. I appreciate you. You bet. Thank you.