André Villas-Boas EXCLUSIVE: Bombshell Chelsea Revelations, Levy’s Tactics & His Porto Masterplan

28:46We're not speaking about economy. So that's the, of course, I've seen this story and it's good you point out to me because this is precisely me as a principled human being setting out the rules. The rules were that we only had a few free spaces in first class that couldn't fit all of the first team players. So the established players. So you would have to make a selection between, let's say, Peter Szek, Didier, John Terry, Lampard, and then leave out the Jonobis, the Rauls, the rest of the boys, the Maloudas or whatever, the Alouz, etc. Fernando, for example, could be another one. So the principle was precisely that.

29:35So instead of creating a problem, Let's put here the Academy boys, makes no difference, and send all the rest of the guys in business class. So that was the reasoning. I don't remember John coming to me, I think probably Gary Staker or David Barnard coming to me saying that might have been a little bit of an issue with the boys there. I don't remember them changing. I think the Academy boys ended up traveling the same. I don't remember John, to be fair. But that was the principle. So instead of putting only a few of what was considered the top guns, because I think we didn't even have, so we had enough for the captains, which was always a good excuse.

30:20So the captains of the team could come to first class and the other ones wouldn't come. I think we tested all of the different criterias, so appearances, a number of years for the club. the principle was precisely that you know the big guns go together and the boys they come up to first class so I see it completely different John see it does the other way around I think it has zero influence like I told you in preseason because in preseason we were excellent we dominated all the games we played excellent football we started the season very very well so nothing to do probably has something to do with my principled way of being my stubbornness in some stage or not overseeing the big picture, probably, you know, the big prima donnas having to go on in the first class.

31:13John Obi Mikel:But I think, boss, what you're trying to say is he's probably played 400 games for the club, 300 games, 200 games, and a kid that has not played a single minute for the club. I see it the other way, Jonathan. You know what I mean? You don't want to get to come and see in a business class. I see it. Yeah, no, I see it a little bit. I understand. I understand, you know, I'm not sure if I would have, if I would do it differently right now, because it's a practical, efficient thing. It has nothing to do. I mean, OK, if we were speaking about, if John rings the podcast right now and says that the places were an economy class, you know, I can probably accept the arguments.

31:57but from what I remember was we were speaking about first class and business class which is you know it's a no brainer anyway yeah you could see it both ways and both maybe you can open in the podcast a poll and you see I need to open a poll the pro JT and pro EVV it's ridiculous you're right when you say it like that can I ask Andre did you watch the 2012 Champions League final Did I watch the final? Yeah, I watched the final. I was in Porto in a friend's house. What was the emotions? Listen, I congratulated a few of the guys. A few of the boys wrote to me. I cannot tell you that I was supporting Chelsea.

32:48It had inflicted on me too much pain to be supporting Chelsea on that final. So I did speak to a few of the boys. David Luiz texted me after the game, Ramirez, Paco Biosca, our famous doctor, very, very funny, a few of the staff. You know, this is why I always tend and I do it as a free spirit and from my heart. That win was totally down to these boys, their transformation and Mateus transformation. It has nothing to do with me. I built that squad. You know, the choices that I did in the transfer market were all mine because I believed in these guys, but the way that they transcended themselves to finish the season is down to them, not to me.

33:44So yeah, it's their merit and their triumph. It's a very, very funny team, this Chelsea team. And I always go back to when this guy won on the penalty, you shoot out. And I think this reflects, John can say otherwise, but I think this reflects the dressing room. So when they score the last penalty, one guy celebrates this way, the other guy celebrates this way, the other guy goes to the goalkeeper, the other guy stays in the ground, the other guy. So they all went in different directions. And I think this resumes a dressing room where people respected each other. They tolerate themselves, but they're not really good friends with each other.

34:37This is my understanding of the psychology of the game and the way I perceive that team. I think a team would go in the same direction when you win the Champions League trophy. Wow.

34:52John Obi Mikel:It's incredible. So you feel that it doesn't matter what we come out and say in the press, how together we are as a team, and you feel like there is no real togetherness, like players liking and loving each other as a team. There were special groups, special group dynamics. It's hard for me, John, speaking about this in front of you because you know. I could invert this question and ask it to you and you would give me your answer. And you could agree or disagree with me or partly agree with me or partly disagree with me. I think, you know, probably the Brazilians would be with Matt. The French-speaking guys, the Calus, Maloudas would be together.

35:42There were different mixes of personalities, individuals that thought a lot about themselves, played in the same team but didn't feel emotionally strong as a team. I don't know, this was my impression when I saw you guys celebrate. I don't know how much in touch you are with each other but that was my understanding of that group dynamic your relationship

36:14John Obi Mikel:with Roman and Marina because it feels like there is something there unfinished discussion of business something that you left with some set of dysfunction the way it happened the way you got dismissed from the club. Is there something there that you're still holding on to that you think you were unfairly treated? No, really, because the results were negative. I think that run that leads to my sacking, we lost in Everton, lost West Brom, lost in Napoli. Okay, we were playing in Birmingham, we would have won that game, I think we would have won against Napoli. But, you know, results were going down.

37:01So it's accepted that when coaches don't get results, things change. Roman was never there that year, if you remember. So he had a big court case against his ex-partner Boris. So he was mostly out of Chelsea's training ground. So I often mention to Ron and the board and Marina that his presence was important. It was important, yeah. So, most of the time he was out. Most of the transfer window was done with Marina, Emanalo, Ron. So he was always out.

37:41But yeah, I think there's no hard feelings. Results were those results, the results were poor, you change the coach.

37:50John Obi Mikel:A few words about our crowd sponsors. Betwinner is your reliable partner in the world of sports betting. enjoy placing bets on any sports event with great odds and maximum convenience visit betwinner.com now listening to you andre i mean you've been very candid with us you've said that you were given a blueprint to change things that roman wanted to take the team in a different direction you've admitted to being convinced by the old guard that they were buying into your methods that they were ready to take on the new blueprint. Reflecting on it now, with one of the big regrets, looking back, you maybe wish, you know what, I want to stick with my gut.

38:30I want to move the old guard on. Does any part of you, after the dismissal, think, yeah, that was a big mistake? No, I think January was difficult. We were about to make some changes. Roman was not giving any budget. Didier wanted to go to Shanghai. So, Didier knocked down my office to join Shenhua in advance. I don't know if you remember, he takes a penalty at home. I can't remember against which team. He scores and says goodbye to the West End. Then he ends up staying. So, this was all, I think this is interesting because you all see these dynamics and DDA came to my office and he was asking for a transfer because he was going to get a few million per year, as you can imagine.

39:24So, yeah, I think that there is always another side to the story. I think, you know, DDA is, you know, my regrets is not being able to explore the talent of a few of them to the best of their condition. be it because of the system be it the fact that we played possession and we didn't have that spaces to attack there were a few players that I was in love with that probably connected more to my possession game rather than the transitional game that was always part of the history of mostly the success at Chelsea but yeah I think that you know this is why when I leave the next transfer window I think Roberto ends up spending 300 million in players.

40:13And yeah, those were the big investment of the Chelsea team. So yeah, I'm really proud to have put together a low-cost team to win the Champions League. With Matt Asturridge and Oriol Romeu, Kevin De Bruyne, Lukaku, which only arrived the year after, Courtois and all these boys. and Cahill and so much fun man so much fun but yeah but these guys they gave me a hard time as well you know so many funny stories

40:52John Obi Mikel:there was one is there one what's the funniest one funniest one you can remember listen I think the funniest one is I think is Ashley so in one of these crisis meeting before Napoli you know basically I asked these guys to give a reflection of the moment that we were passing in terms of results and as and then each one's moment so team and each one's moment so so I ended up these guys are speaking of course everybody has the right to speak and we go one by one and I'm putting notes on the board and I say that these things relate to me. So for example, a few of the guys thinking, boss, we train too much before the day of the game.

41:43So, or we don't train enough before the day of the game. So I'm taking notes that are related to me. Or you don't speak to me the same like you speak with him. So I'm writing these things. You don't hug me enough like you hug him. So I'm writing these things and then A few of them, and I think Frank made a really, really good point. They were not satisfied with their own performance. I think I can do more and I have to adapt to your methods, boss. And so I'm writing these things that are related to them. So we reached Ashley Cole and Ashley, so he speaks about the team and then he says, You know, boss, when you put the team out and you have my harrow, the harrow that you put doesn't go past the midfield line.

42:37So I don't, for me, I don't understand. I was always a fullback that went very, very deep. So I don't know why your harrow stops in the halfway. It stops the halfway line. It stops the halfway line. So I said, okay, Ashley, thank you very much for your opinion. So I write this stuff and then we go to the game against Napoli. And I called Frank because he was not playing. And I called Ashley and I told Frank, listen, I'm going to choose Raul for this game. I appreciate what you said in the meeting. It's really thorough. Give me some time to work things out. But in this game, you're going to be out.

43:15So I called him and then I called Ashley. And I told Ashley, listen, you're trying to make a fool of me in front of everybody. I cannot accept. So you are out of the team. You go into the bench because you took a crisis meeting and a group meeting into something where you think it's funny to play with your coach. So you are out. So we start the game. Bozingo is playing at left back. Gets ruptured. That's two minutes into the game. Two minutes over. Bozingo left back. Ashley is up because of what is in the meeting. And Bozingo gets injured two minutes into the game. So I look at Ashley and he looks at me and says,

44:01John Obi Mikel:This is incredible. Incredible. But yeah, I think this resumes. I mean, the boys have their own versions. I have my versions. It is all a funny story right now. It is the life of a football coach with a group of players that have ended up, you know, turning a very unsuccessful season. or a misery season into the season where they win the most important trophy. I prefer it the other way around, to be fair, to build projects, to build solid teams, to build, you know, something that makes you reach the maximum success. But this is what resumes the beauty of the game. It's the unparalleled, you know, dynamics that happen that change things dramatically.

44:50John Obi Mikel:What do you make of the club now? The situation of the club now, Chelsea? What do you make of it? Obviously since the changing, the owners have gone. Romana sold the club. You know, the new owners, Blue Co. What have you made of them in terms of how they're running the football club? Well, different dynamics in England right now. It's a Super League on its own. So I tell you my president's view of a members club. So Porto, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Athletic Bilbao, there's only a few members club in the world. So we do compete against multi-club ownerships, which are very, very difficult to compete against.

45:29And you have seen the dynamics of transfer that they apply in between group, which is difficult and hard to understand. The way they control cash flows and accounts. They have built a very, very successful story, of course. I mean, they are chasing more success, for sure. strategically they do operate the market in unparalleled ways from long-term contracts to moving different players so it is creating a lot of noise and rupture and new ways of approach to the market so that makes us think as well I've spoken to Bedad, he's a very dynamic guy I haven't spoken to the other owner, Todd but for us we believe as a members club that we have a cultural and competitive advantage because we are not subject to different ownerships through time so Chelsea went on from a Russian owner to American owners to funds a football club in England can go from an Asian owner to an English owner to an American owner and those dynamics in between can change the way you approach market can change the way that you approach cultures can change the way that you interact with your audience and your fans etc they are all very very rich clubs of course from the fortunes of the premier league but i think members clubs have a competitive advantage because we know where we sit we know what we are we have our own cultural and historic history that it that belongs to the fans, to the members, and whoever is the president is just a continuation of the culture that is set within.

47:20So this is why, for example, in this organization, you would probably visit, you know, the marketing department or the legal department, etc. And they're all Porto fans, since they were born. You would visit the legal department in Chelsea and the marketing, and one comes from Arsenal, the other one comes from City, another one comes from America, from Google, the other one comes from Apple. This gives you different ways to approach markets. So they think out of their box, but they don't have the cultural knowledge to approach the people. Although, to be fair, isn't it true as well that the own dynamics of the Chelsea fan base is changing at the same time?

48:04So you have the through-bred Chelsea die-hard fans, the one that historically have been there, grandfather, father, son, etc. But you also have the worldwide fan base that it's growing more and more and more and reacts to different stimulus. We are not that way. So, you know, all the people that work here are Porto fans. We don't have a guy that is from Benfica working in our marketing department. That's going to be impossible. We will never tolerate such things. So, you know, we tend to protect our culture, our history, what we represent, what we are. This is very, very strong within us. And this is something that we cherish a lot.

48:52John Obi Mikel:Betwinner, your bets, your wins. We've just seen the transfer window close And we've seen again One more time In England The Premier League spent about 3.5 billion close to Yeah That is crazy How difficult is for clubs in Europe You know like yourself Here in Portugal Different clubs You know Spanish league French league To compete with that amount of spending It's crazy Yeah As the president of Porto now How do you see that and going forward, how difficult would that become for you guys? It's ever more difficult. So I can tell you the story about Kala Vierenke, for example, that joined Coventry.

49:36So there was some stage where we approached his club, Northland, to bring him in to this football club. So we went as far as we could have gone, which was a lot to bring him in. We had to stop. and this boy ended up going to Coventry for 27 million plus some bonuses, plus some sell-on. So this is a talented kid from Ghana, of course, coached by Michael. And we had high expectations for his future. And of course, we wanted to bring him in, nurture him over here and probably sell him to the Premier League to one of the big clubs. So this is happening more and more, which is the amount of ability that your clubs, the Premier League clubs have to build immense scouting structures and data structures that identifies talent quicker than us and prevents young players from having that stop way passage which normally would have been Porto.

50:44So, for example, Kala would have gone to Porto and then eventually to Chelsea or Arsenal or another one of the big clubs. Estevão, for example. Typical Estevão pathway would be, for example, Palmeiras to Porto, to Porto to Chelsea, where he is right now. So, Savinho the same, Vinicius the same. So this would have been the normal pathway of extremely talented kids that would probably stop in Portugal and Spain before going into the Premier League. It now doesn't happen. So these kids are going directly into the Premier League, not to the top clubs, but to clubs that are part of the Premier League.

51:28Yeah, yeah. That compete for survival in the Premier League like any other. We, of course, are selling as well to those clubs. We are selling probably less to the Arsenal than the Chelsea are selling to the Bournemouths, to the Coventry, to the Brentfords more and more. So this is going to be a new tendency as well. But it's becoming ever more difficult. So for us now to be able to reach talent first, we are starting to scout between 16 to 18 years old. Wow. Across the globe. Across the globe. Getting them younger. Yeah, 18 outside of the EU can only be 18. But within the EU we are at 16, 17, 18.

52:12Wow, that's the market. Yeah, so for example, Pietusewski, the Polish winger, we brought him at 17. Granaz, which is a Norwegian kid, we brought him at 16 this year. Gabriel Mech, the Brazilian, we brought him at 18. It just escaped the radar of the English clubs. don't tell me why, but we managed to get it. So, yeah. The radar was not working when he was left. Yes, yes. A few of them are left. We grabbed them. But yeah, really, really difficult. Difficult, competitive. Interesting as well now what I think can happen in the future, which I think is the overflow of talent into the Premier League is going to lead to offload of talent from the Premier League in the next seasons.

53:04That's interesting. So, you know, without prejudice, Stevon is not finding time to play at 19 years old. Savinho is already changing clubs. So eventually, you know, the Premier League clubs will want to continue to grab talent and they will offload talent into other clubs. The problem is the salaries that they are in would prevent us from higher them. Exactly.

53:32John Obi Mikel:And that's why you see them go to Saudi Arabia now? It's the reverse. So, for example, we have already bought from Saudi Arabia. Vega. With Gabriel Vega. So he went early from his career, of course, more linked to the financial possibilities of going into Saudi Arabia. But he has now returned to Europe on normal European salaries because he wanted to be back to the European experience, play Champions League, win titles, etc. So that offload from Saudi Arabia is already happening. The offload from the Premier League will happen, I think, in two or three years' time. I am conscious of time. Talking about talent, Andre, we cannot sit with you and not ask about one man in particular, Gareth Bale.

54:18Because I remember your year at Tottenham. I still believe this. His best season of his career was under your guidance. 26 goals in all competitions. I remember the goal at Upton Park. How special was he, Andre? Is he the best player you've ever worked with? A difficult one. Listen, Gareth was never a hard worker. No. Really? No, no, no. First of all, because he had a lot of injury prevention related to his workload and work rate that we had to take care of. when I arrived he was playing on the left of a 4-4-2 so it was Adebayor Defoe and then was Bale Lennon that team was amazing in terms of speed and then was Walker on the other side so those were flyers and then at some stage

55:21we had an issue with Ekoto, he was suspended or he was injured. We had to play Yen at Central Defender because Yen was our left back in emergency cases, Vertonghen. And I think Gareth sensed that he was going to play left back. So basically, I think in the week leading to this game, He came to my office, he knocked on my door, he came in and he told me, I told this story when he won the PFA Player of the Year award. So he came into my office and said, boss, I'm really disappointed with my football. I'm not happy with my football. I can do much, much more and, you know, I'm not happy in the positions that you are playing me.

56:09So, okay. So from that moment, you sense that you're going to put this guy left back. So he got rid of the situation. So, you know, what you demand from me as a left winger, I'm not pretty happy. I said, OK, Gareth, what do you want me to do? No, boss, I need to play in a free role and, you know, have the freedom to go right, to go left. I think this would favor my abilities. I said, OK, look, I can try. Give me a few games and try to organize the team and we try. Why not? So we played him off the front from Madre Vallor and it was amazing. Because he could go right, left, in behind, in midfield.

56:52He had total freedom and then he started scoring those goals for free. Each one more spectacular than the other one. So yeah, we ended up with a magnificent season.

57:08And Gareth had all the days off. I'm tired today. My back is no problem. Take me off. Take me off. So, yeah, I think we missed the Champions League for one point. So it was the record points of Tottenham that season, 72. A magnificent season for us. We were miserable against Wigan. That's when we lost the fourth place in the Champions League. We did a 2-2 against Wigan away.

57:41And yeah, we finished fifth record of points. In 10 seasons of the Premier League, 72 points would get you into the Champions League. That's right. We were out. Gareth then has the offer from Real Madrid. I remember a Man United call in the last minute because Daniel came into my office. Wow. They were paying 120. No. And Gareth didn't want to go. He wanted to go to Real Madrid. Wow. So, he turned down my United to go to Real Madrid? Yes, yes. No, don't tell me that, Condrema. Wow. No, for me, it was indifferent. We were in Hong Kong during the preseason. Gareth was protecting himself because he really wanted this transfer to happen.

58:23Real Madrid were pushing a lot. I remember in the Asia Tour, in the end of the game, he was out in the physio room. So, I went to his physio bed and I got a pen. So I pick up my pen and I wrote here Real Madrid and Man United. Which one? So yeah. He chose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He chose Wiser. Without disrespect, but he really wanted that move and yeah. Wow. And he did get it.

58:57John Obi Mikel:It's crazy to see that an English player has turned down the biggest club in England, Manchester United, to go to Real Madrid. He had the options and he chose Real Madrid. I know Real Madrid is the biggest club in the world. I don't know. I think it's a personal one. Real Madrid is the winner of all Champions League. He contributed decisively to winning those Champions Leagues. And a historical club. I think it's a difficult decision. I think it's acceptable. I remember David Moyes called in and he wanted to have that move. I think Gareth also speaks about this freely. And he ended up, I think, making a good choice.

59:34John Obi Mikel:I mean, either of them were great choices for sure. Talking about making choices, I know Gary turned down Manchester United. There was rumours that, in saying you turned down, is it true that you turned down an offer from Real Madrid and Inter Milan in the summer of 2013? Me? Yeah. No, Paris. Paris? Yes, yes. Yeah, Paris. You turned it down to stay at Tottenham. Yeah. So, really interesting story. I think this one was never told so you have the exclusive. Exclusive, huh? Yeah. So, and it was funny because I was with Nasser the other day and we were reflecting on this story a little bit. It's a really, really funny story, this one.

1:00:18I'm going to rob you a few of your minutes but I think this one is worth it. We want all the minutes. Yeah, so also long story short, I was fixing my Dakar bikes at the time. so end of season in Tottenham I go back home I have my bikes in my in my house and I remove the Dakar bike because I'm I'm fixing the carburetor of my bike and Nasser calls me and Nasser calls me and he says André Leonardo is going to call you we want you to become the next Paris Saint-Germain coach and please have a word with him and then we will speak to your agents to see if you are interested. I said, okay, no problem.

1:01:06Give him my number and call. So my hands dirty fixing my bike. So Leonardo calls me and he tells me, Andrea, Nasser, give me your number. It's a great pleasure to speak to you. Listen, I want you to know that you are not going to become coach of Paris Saint-Germain. I was the one that was going to become coach of Paris Saint-Germain. but I have an issue with with the French Federation because of an incident in the tunnel against a referee and they want you as a second choice to me and I said Leonardo thank you so much but I'm not going to Paris Saint-Germain so I put down the phone and I continue fixing my bike so Nasser calls me again and says André please I'm so sorry about Leonardo he didn't mean it he's just that he is so frank and honest in his relationship that they wanted to tell you that, you know, just so that you guys start well on your next project.

1:02:01I said, Nasser, how can you want me to start well on my next project when I'm in second choice to be a sports director? There's no chance I'm going to Paris Saint-Germain. Please, Andre, reflect, blah, blah, blah. So this is the first calls and I put him down. I tell him no and I put down the phone. So then a few days after I go to the Bahamas because Daniel and John Lewis, they invite me to Joe Louis they invite me to to the Bahamas to spend a few days with my family so I take my assistant coach I am there in in the Bahamas and we are 100 meters away from Joe Louis' boat and Paris is insisting so there is one week of Paris speaking to Levy and Joe and and Joe and and Daniel are trying to sell me oh they were speaking to Spurs already they were speaking because they had to pay the release clause which was 20 million pounds.

1:02:56So Nasser is insisting with me and I had Baldini at that time coming to the Bahamas as well because Baldini was joining Tottenham as sports director and he was coming to the Bahamas and I'm telling Baldini, listen, Paris is insisting. They want me to speak to the Emir of Qatar. I don't have a good feeling of it, but I have to listen to them. I just want to let you know. So this is happening. So I'm speaking to the Emir of Qatar and I don't have a good feeling about the projects because I'm speaking to them about my things, like I told you before. The players that I want. I'm very meticulous. I know what I want.

1:03:38I know where I want to go and which players that I want, et cetera. And Nasser and the Emir and Leonardo, they are insisting on other versions and I'm not getting a good feeling. So my assistant is there. he's trying to push me to sign to go of course but I tell him I tell him Jose I'm not going to accept you know I don't think we want this project we want stability we want to build teams that represent where we want to play we are you know we just did well in Tottenham we're going to sell bail we're going to reinvest in the team we feel good and it's the right setup the right environment I'm going to stay so the guy is all over the place and in my head i i think to me okay i am i am rejecting paris saint germain is joe lewis and daniel levy they're going to offer me a new contract for sure but now i find out that these two they want to sell me to paris saint germain so the contract renewal never comes and because the contract renewal never comes and then so daniel basically starts speaking about this to my agent but my agent understands that this is all bullshit.

1:04:53So he's delaying and delaying and he's playing games with me and I'm getting really fed up with the situation. So I stopped speaking to Daniel. Really? So things really started to get... Nasty. Nasty within. Because, you know, there was really no communication. Franco is in the middle trying to cool things off. And basically, you know, you make an emotional decision of attachment to Tottenham. Yeah. You reject the move to Paris. And you think, okay, these guys, we finished fifth, but we end up season record of points. Okay, I'm never an easy person to deal with. And we had our issues during that first year with Daniel.

1:05:35Very, very funny stories along the way. But, you know, this is your coach. You know, you set up a new contract, you renew him, you put some special clauses, whatever, but everybody feels the attachment. but no these two they are trying to sell me to Paris so yeah this is this was this was Tottenham I think this was reflected as well on the story of coaches that they had very very you know for us Latin people we are very attached to emotions and to the feeling that you have from the boss from the other side to the reading between the lines, etc. So I didn't take it lightly and we started that second year with a lot of disputes.

1:06:25But that was funny, man. That was funny. This reflects a little bit the story. But it was Paris. The informal calls I got from Real Madrid was always informal through other people. Right, right. So that's probably, that will be probably

1:06:44John Obi Mikel:one of your biggest regrets, probably not taking that job. No, no, no, no, no. That was a decision completely taken in consciousness. First of all, I am Olympique Marseille through and through. I love the club, love the experience, love the fans, the way I interact with them and the way they interact to me on pure essence, pure emotion. I love that experience. I love that club. It was really, really special. And I really, if there is a shirt that I have worn other than the Porto shirt, it was that Olympic Marseille shirt. Really? Marseille shirt. Wow. The fans are crazy. Yeah, the velodrome is unique.

1:07:27It is a pity that they are in the state that they are. That club lives on ups and downs of love and hate. But you have to learn to speak to those people and that was magic. I don't know, the Paris decision was straight, clean, clear. Of course, you know, when you make a decision to stay at Tottenham, I was expecting to renew. Yeah. To have that, to feel that love as well. Wait, never game. Never game. So that's the lesson.

1:08:02John Obi Mikel:Always give your coach love. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We've all said so many times how Daniel Levy was always the man holding back all the transfers. This summer, they've gone out there, they've spent, they've backed Roberto De Zerbi. But they are still in that mess. How do you see, where do you see, how did they come out of this? What is the problem of that football club?

1:08:29It's been a lot of years since he has gone, since I left. A lot of the same dynamics, I think, in between. A lot of managers. Ex-mantation. Conte, Mourinho. Yeah, Andrzej. Andrzej. Pochettino. Pochettino, Nuno Santo. Wow. Yeah, Spirit Santo, yeah. Crazy. A lot. Probably the best managers in the world trying to find an understanding of the situation. It is funny because all of these coaches, they speak about Tottenham as a person. So what is happening with Tottenham that, you know, when you went to Tottenham, these things happen. Because the players keep on changing and the phenomena is the same.

1:09:15So it's like a dark spell that it's within the organization, which I don't know. I think you have to let space for the teams to grow. Time and space, for sure. expectations are now at the level of maximum because of the investment for sure. A little bit similar to my second year where the 100 million on bail we reinvested on the market and then we ended up collapsing more through injuries and results rather than through internal disputes, let's say. You know, at some stage we had three central defenders out of the game. And so we had different problems when the results dropped.

1:10:01Leadership is a problem. I think this is a common ground to the Premier League, where you have owners. So basically, in my view and my understanding of sports dynamics, there is always a bigger voice. The bigger voice in members clubs is the president's voice, which the president's voice is the continuity of the members of the culture, of the history, of the demands of a football club. So whenever the president is present and he speaks what he has to say to a team, he's representing all the members of the club and their expectations, their frustrations and where the team should go right. and what do you expect from your group?

1:10:49In ownerships, you don't see these dynamics. So when you see a coach in trouble because of results and the media is there and they are starting to burn you and you are the next dead man walking, the coaches look back and the bigger voice is not there because they are owners. They are there for the profit on the long run. Most of them are there because of the profit. not because they love the club they are there because they invested and they want the return at some stage and they don't they don't understand sports dynamics I think there is then the rest of the structures that support the coaches so let's say the sports directors the CEOs etc but the problem is that these assets are also being transferred from club to club so they don't represent nothing they are a CEO at the time and he's the sports director at the time and he's also under pressure because of the results and he's also waiting for the voice of the owner to tell him something or where you go are you secure yeah the CEO is secure the sports director is secure the coach is secure so you guys keep on doing your job but you know players I think John can relate to this you want to see the you know when Roman was there Not in my time, but the big boss is coming.

1:12:17John Obi Mikel:Surprisingly enough, though, he never came to the dressing room at your time. No, never, never, never. The big boss is coming. For sure you remember in different times when the big boss is coming and you see Roman had a special attachment to the club. And, you know, he cherished you guys. He took care of you guys. I mean, everybody at Chelsea was taken care of. So there was no excuses. You have excellent trading grounds, salaries, salaries paid on time, bonuses paid on time, you know, top-notch facilities. So there is a no-excuses job. So at some stage when the big owner and the big boss puts you in order, you know, things move on.

1:12:58And I think this is happening in the Premier League because these people don't know who they own them. They're not present. They're there in the director's box and end of game and they're off with their private jets to somewhere to take care of their businesses. and this is their hobby in the end. Wow. You know, I don't expect Jeff Bezos now that he bought a third of Liverpool to come into the dressing room and give a smack on the players.

1:13:23So this a little bit goes back to that cultural advantage that we might have, comparative advantage. So do you have a relationship with the players, André? Do you go in and... But I think so. I mean, put me out of this equation and think of Florentino Perez and think of Joan Laporta for example and the impact that they have on the running of Real Madrid and Barcelona or Pinto da Costa imagine winning all these trophies in his career and coming into a dressing room to give you a stick everybody knows when he came in the dressing room he didn't even need to open his voice because everybody was you know this is the leader and at some stage you don't know where these leaders are.

1:14:10I think there is a bit more involvement. I mean, City, we play tomorrow. I think Group City, you see this involvement, you see this dynamic between CEO, sports CEO, you see protected people that have power and they have the power of influence and they are present on the day-to-day life. So people see them present. I don't think that this is happening in other clubs. And when you look back, well, no one is there. No one is there. So now you see Deserbi speaking in the press. He has spent 400 million or 300 million and he's trying to get his results right. And you know that eventually they're going to come.

1:14:51But the press is hunting headlines and he's already cooking the news. Yeah. And he's trying to defend himself. His time, his situation, his playing time, etc. But nobody's buying it because you need the owner's voice. It's the owner in the interview saying, listen, this is Deserbi. He saved us from relegation last season. He's doing well. We invested a lot. The team needs time. But time is of the essence.

1:15:17John Obi Mikel:Big game tomorrow for you guys. How do you see that one? I mean, against Manchester City. Yeah, a big return. So, Porto is number four of the top five with most presence in the Champions League. It's incredible. We are two Champions League winners. Two times Champions League winners. Vienna, of course, over here. Gazan Kirsha. Yeah. So a big, big, massive club. Tomorrow we play with our history, but we play also against the new history of football. Big, big teams assembled at a very high cost. Best talent in the world available for a team. So difficult. I mean, for City, it's been 400, 500 million invested in this transfer window.

1:16:05best players in the world that you can think of are now part of their team. A change of coach, a coach that we know very well, that we did well with Leicester in Chelsea and City. So we take our historical pedigree into the pitch, the demand of our fans, the expectations, but we know that we're going to compete against a team that has enough talent to create this problem. You need that 12-man tomorrow.

1:16:28John Obi Mikel:You need the fans behind you to be able to push it. Champions League night. Yeah. Yeah, we have those nights. And to win one of those as president, that would be the greatest achievement on the field. Yeah, it's difficult right now, particularly also with the format of the competition. The knockouts always give you those chances. The league phase makes it a little bit more dramatic. But getting one of them... You can dream. You can dream with outsiders in the Champions League. It's always possible. You need to arrive there at the right stage, avoid injuries, be at the top of your game, but it's going to become ever more difficult.

1:17:06I think eventually through time, in 10 years time, we would look back to European competitions

1:17:11John Obi Mikel:and see a dominance of English teams. Yeah. In there. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. You've given us so much time. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much. It's good to see you.