Eni Aluko speaks her truth: Barton, Racism & FIFA’s eligibility rules

27:47Not just in Italy. I mean, we know it exists, like, in all places. I think once upon a time, there would be, like, lip service to these things. It would be like, oh, we condemn it and nothing would happen. I think with what happened with Vinny in Spain, there was a punishment. You know, the people responsible went to prison. That's what I'm about. Like people need to see a punishment, a deterrent. And then the behavior dies out. That's, you know. Yeah. So I think that that's better now where players get banned and fans get banned from football stadiums. And, you know, fans in Vinny's case are arrested and put in prison.

28:31That's what it needs to be consistently. Consistent. And so people then go, probably shouldn't do that. I'm going to get in trouble if I say that. Fans then self-police in the stadiums. There's cameras everywhere now as well. So I'm not sure you can get away with it. So I do think it's improved. I do think it's improved and you hear less incidents of it, like way less actually, than I think in the past. So I'm happy about that. It kind of leads nicely, I say nicely on, it's probably the wrong use of that word. The last 15 months for you, Annie, I go back to tweets, messages that were popped out.

29:09How have the last 15 months been for you personally? Forget on the macro level and the issues that Italy have and a lot of societies have. Looking at you specifically, how difficult has the last kind of year and a bit been? Yeah, I mean, it's been tough because, you know, litigation is really difficult. you know litigation's hard um you know but suing somebody is a decision that you i made because i thought back to that point you know if we don't do anything about online abuse at a big scale it will be you normalize it um and people think it's okay you know to to say whatever they want online um and you know i have to i i wanted to make a stance on that and the only way to really do that is to you know create a consequence legally but also financially you know so you know joey barton has to think about now what he said what he said i mean 45 tweets 45 tweets and you know people say you know oh well you know everyone's entitled to their opinion of you and as a pundit absolutely yeah but what does my father and my dad exactly my family my race my gender have to do with my opinion as a pundit if you don't think i'm a good pundit cool i mean lots of people do and the people that hire me do i'm not bothered but when it starts a lot of people don't understand the difference between criticism and attacking you as an individual and a person and attacking your family.

30:48And that's the difference, right? And that's what you felt. It was an attack. It was an attack. Yeah. It was attack on my dad. It was attack on my family. It was attack on me. It was attack on my lifestyle. It was attack on my professional identity. Um, you know, saying that I'm only in the job because I'm black, you're, you're, you're attacking every single bit of qualification i have to do the job that is not that is not criticism that is not freedom of speech that's an attack right and and there's laws on that and the law of defamation means that you can be held accountable for that which which which the court has said these are defamatory you know tweets yeah um and there's a whole element to the claim that's there's harassment as well so it's not been fun it's expensive as well you know i've i've i've put my hand in my pocket to to stand up for what's right but you know i felt like if if i don't do this at the high profile level you know then we're really in trouble here because it's not just happened to me there's other female broadcasters that are being attacked every week every time they get on tv it's a culture and the only thing you can do going back to that point with cultures is create consequence and deterrence so people just change their behavior sticking your head above the parapet as you've done you know you've you've kind of you're fighting fire with fire to your point the emotional strain of it the financial implications of it as well but you're fighting a fight that you believe is right how has that affected your life kind of I would imagine are you subjected to even more keyboard warriors the trolls yeah walking around in the street and the second part to that question would be what has it done to you has it changed you you know anxieties are an issue that would spring to mind has it has it altered the way that you are now day to day?

32:50To be honest, I mean, so, so it all kicked off in January, 2024. And the first week I didn't leave my house and I've been quite open about this. I didn't leave my house because online abuse, when a person with 3.5 million followers is attacking you, as you said, it then it's a wave, it's an avalanche of abuse. All these smaller accounts then think it's okay. Right. So I literally didn't leave my house I felt really scared um and for about a week yeah I didn't leave my house um and the reason I didn't leave my house is because in my area where I live there's a lot of people that know me um and so all of a sudden I started feeling very self-conscious about going to the local shop or in case people could see where I lived I mean football fans are everywhere right so you know and and it's all of these smaller accounts that actually say the more dangerous things.

33:46There was a guy that my lawyers got in touch with, a young, I think he was about 19, 20, got in touch with who started saying that any glucose should be shot. No way. Again, off the back of Jerry Barton's tweets. My lawyers got in touch with him, even though he had a small amount of followers. My lawyers got in touch with him and said, listen, you can't be saying things like that. You can't be saying things like that. And the law doesn't allow you to say things like that. Exactly. And obviously when, when, when you get a legal letter, then it's like, oh, actually what I said was wrong. And he apologized publicly.

34:21And, and, but that's the, that's the extent of it. You know, it bleeds into the other people and other accounts and it bleeds into real life. Do you walk around now, today, is it something that you look over your shoulders every time you're outside or you're somewhere? Or has that become a bit better? I felt like that at the start. I did. And the first few games I did as a broadcaster in the stadiums, I felt quite self-conscious. I think, you know, as a public figure, you all know. You can't, you know, you have to be careful. You have to be smart, but it's not a case where I'm hiding myself away.

35:04You know, I'm just, I'm just careful about, you know, one of the things I've done over the last year is, you know, if I'm somewhere, I don't post where I am in real time. Wow. And that's sad. That's how, that's, this has affected you. Yeah, that's what I do. I don't, I don't post where I am in real time because there's always that niggly fear that there's just so many nutters out there. It's not, people are crazy. Yeah, I mean, coming from somebody who's I mean, you played for England Four times And coming from somebody who only played for England one time You know, and saying That a woman shouldn't be You know, talking about Men's football I mean, what do you know?

35:47I mean, who's this guy? I mean, like, it's insane He's speaking to He's not speaking to himself You know, there are other people That genuinely believe that so you know there was an attempt I think to promote a podcast there was an attempt to sort of appeal to a certain element of society that is sexist that is misogynistic that is racist so you know there's an audience there unfortunately um but it's nonsense you know because ultimately we all you know every single pundit every single broadcaster whether you're a man woman you know white black makes mistakes makes gaffes um you know says stupid things you know i'm good friends with gary neville gary neville will tell you when he first started as a pundit it wasn't always pretty you know he didn't always say um and then if you're not if you're not saying things as a pundit that sort of divide opinion you're not actually doing your job you know so i'm one of those pundits that like you know i'm gonna give my opinion i'm gonna say like um but i think because I'm a woman I'm not allowed to do that you know I'm not allowed to say things that might feel a little bit controversial or not controversial but you know raises conversation yeah you know I'll give you an example you know I remember doing the England uh England game at the World Cup England France and Kane took two penalties in the game and he missed the penalty and I said after the game, I was like, Kane shouldn't have taken that second penalty because Lloris is his mate.

37:26You know, they should have planned for a second penalty taker. Just the way you plan for different free kick takers or, you know, for me, a penalty is a set piece, right? So it should, it doesn't always have to be the same person. For me, that was a valid point based on the fact that, you know they should have prepared i think for the fact that he was going to face a goalkeeper that knew how that knew him really well that's top level management right anyway i say this and it's oh my god what is she talking about you know uproar how dare she question harry kane and two days later the french players came out and said we were surprised that harry kane took the second penitentiary.

38:14No way. So we pretty much endorsed what I said. Endorsed what he said, yeah. Now, in that moment, I was like, well, the only reason why people were so outraged about it, if Gary Neville would have said it, said that. It would have been like, oh, what a great point. It's true. Right? That's true. The only reason you think it's bizarre that I've said it is because I'm different to the other. Yeah. And I don't want to always draw that conclusion, but it has to be the conclusion. Right? Yeah. So, unfortunately, that's the way it is but I think I have to be brave enough to just keep keep keep keep doing my things keep saying it keep giving an opinion um keep you know just just trusting myself um as much as I can and and you know hopefully what I've done in terms of creating this consequence will make people think twice about attacking women online exactly I mean credit to you for for sticking up for women, women of color, whatever, you know, and continuing this fight, you know, standing up for what's right.

39:20If you have, say, for example. I would prefer not to. I'd like to just, you know, live my life. I was minding my business on TV. Until someone started attacking you, you know what I mean? So if you have Joey Batten here right now, what would you say to him? I think you're looking at some, when I see people attacking others online, it's a reflection of them, right? It's a reflection of where they're at in their life. I think Joey Barton hates himself. I think he hates where he's at in life. I think he hates the fact he can't be a pundit, which is not my fault. I'm not stopping him from being a pundit.

40:01I think he hates the fact that, you know, maybe his coaching career is over. Again, not my fault. Wow. So I think there's, there's something going on there in his own head that he's projecting, you know? So I'm not sure what I would say, but I think that's the reality that we're dealing with. I think we're dealing with someone who's really, really struggling, you know, genuinely thinks he should be in the mix, but you're not in the mix probably because you've done a lot of things that just, you know, don't, people just don't want to be involved with you. Associate themselves with you. You know, take me out of it.

40:40The amount of stories I hear from other professionals who've played with him, it's not good. It's got nothing to do with me. But there's always a scapegoat for somebody's self-hate projection. There has to be, there's a punching bag. So I think I'm the, you know, I was, and I'm an easy target. Black woman stands out like a sore thumb in the men's game. Let's just attack her. Let's attack her because she's different. But he messed with the wrong black woman I think No doubt Yeah Because there's a side of me That I'm like No Actually no You can't You're not going to get away with this one Yeah exactly I'm just going to touch on that I mean he's Not only has he attacked your family You know Talked about how your dad's You know you came from money Dodgy money Dodgy money I was just going to say How do you feel How do you I mean Just you your family how do you guys deal with that i mean well there was a lot of nigerians that were very upset about it because it's a stereotype isn't it it's it's it's a racist stereotype um my family support what i'm doing put it that way you know and and for me to get a judgment

41:53Eni Aluko:this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. This message is brought to you by Apple Card, shave ice by the beach, a trip to the state fair, and a throwback flick at the local drive-in.

42:27They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. There are also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. For the judge to say that it was defamatory was really important. It was really important. But the judge to say that the term race card is defamatory is really important. Because a lot of people say that. A lot of people, instead of actually looking at the racism at play, they attack you for claiming it's racist.

43:13And they say you're using the race card or you're trying to get attention and you're trying to be a victim. No, I'm highlighting what's going on, right? So these terms and this language is quite common. And it's quite casually used to silence people. So now a judge has said, no, actually, these are defamatory words that have consequences. I hope, you know, you still get idiots, but I hope people take note of that. Yeah. Betwinner, your bets, your wins. I mean, it's crazy when you know you're doing your job. and then you get people online, people just saying, oh, you are who you are or you get these jobs because it's just box ticking.

44:03How do you feel when people make comments like that? I mean. I mean, I laugh because if you hold up my qualifications to most men in the game, I'm just as qualified. In terms of my credentials, in terms of what I've been able to achieve in the game, in terms of having an MBE, in terms of like - Winning titles. Winning titles, in terms of being a lawyer, in terms of being a sporting director and understanding the business side of the game. I would say probably the only pundit that I would say has a similar level of experience in football, in the business of the game, as an investor, as an owner, that can bring that knowledge to a show is Gary Neville.

44:50Gary Neville, yeah. I can't, unless you tell me, I can't really think of anyone else. So I'm not trying to say I'm better than those guys, but I'm trying to say that I deserve to be in the same shows with them just because of my credentials. And that's what you're picked for as a pundit. You're picked for your standing in the game, your knowledge, your ability to communicate and, and, and what you've achieved in the game, you know? So, so again, what's the difference? If you put my CV next to all these other guys, the difference is I played women's football and people go, well, well, so, so because you played women's football, you have no right to talk about men's football.

45:34No. Well, well that would cancel allow all the commentators yeah yes all the presenters who've never kicked a football in their life right it's nonsense so so whenever people say oh you're only there because you're black it's right first of all it's racist second of all i go well i'm just as qualified as anybody else so are they only there because they're white it's like it's just you know but it's it's a dog whistle it's a dog whistle it's a it's an attempt to reduce and minimize what you've done well i think there might be one punting that might be better than you and gary level and that's me i'm sure i'm sure it's your podcast you can say it you can say it and you know what to your point you want to continue annoying people for the right reason because we we do it you can't please everyone listen i love a good debate you know but as long as it's a debate on football it's not a debate on you know why is she there and and and she's this and she's that and personal you know and i don't know listen i know personal things are said to men men but it's never really attacking their gender or their race it's more about oh look you know he's he's this because of man united or you know it's it's not nice but it's it's never in that territory of racism or sexism misogyny yeah and people saying you should be shot you know come on man there's another guy you know some middle-aged white guy that said I should be bombed in Gaza.

47:02Eni Aluko:Like this is, you know, this is stuff that we, you know, we've got it all. We've got it all. This is why. Has that been sent to your social media? Yeah. I work, I work with a company who that, you know, they specialize in sort of tracking online abuse and they have amazing technology that tracks it. And this is the, you know, this is the stuff that we're seeing. You would love someone just to say you're like this because you played for Chelsea. That's what the blokes get. Or just disagree with me intelligently. Like, you know, I'll give you an example. So, I famously said when Declan Rice went to Arsenal and Man City did that weird, like Man City came in late in the bid.

47:48Do you remember? Arsenal made two bids. They got knocked back. City came in and accelerated it. But City came in in quite a weak bid. Yes. After Arsenal. And it was quite clear at the time West Ham wanted 100 million I don't think West Ham made it a secret they wanted 100 million but City kept making these like like sort of incremental bids yeah now again as a sporting director being in that position where I'm bidding for a player and I know there's competitors if you know what the selling club wants you just go in bang and you go right 100 million here you go right and City can do that they've done that they did that with Jack Greenwich so I thought it was strange And I said at the time, I said, I think the winner here is going to be Arteta.

48:32I said, I think they're communicating. I think Arteta and Pep are communicating, which they don't make a secret, by the way. These guys are very, very good friends. They talk on the phone. They admit it publicly that they talk on the phone. Make our phone number four. Which, again, I've done as a sporting director. I've called another club and said, listen, you know, where are you at with this? Because I know you're putting in a bid. clubs put in bids for different reasons clubs put in bids to sometimes show that they're in for certain players knowing full well they're not going to sign correct they're in for a different plan

49:05Eni Aluko:agents you know it's it's it's all about communication and negotiation behind the scenes so I felt that Pep coming in when he did was a way to get Arteta to go back to his board and say listen we've got our biggest competitors going to get Declan Rice I need more money. That's how it works. I've been in that situation where I've had to go back to owners and go, I need more money. If I want to get this player, I need more money. And actually, a competitor coming in helps because you're able to go, well, if I don't get the money, they're going to get it. They're going to get it, yeah. Again, you wouldn't know all of this.

49:42What kind of blows my mind is I'm aware of it, a tactic where the agent might leak the new city to get you to bid. But it's a bold statement to say that Mikel and Pep are kind of speaking. but you've been there Is it bold? These guys admit all of the time that they're best mates we speak Arteta you Google it right the amount of articles where Arteta said I spoke tactics with Pep these are competitors they talk all the time so if you're going to talk tactics if you're going to be open about talking tactics if you're going to be open about players you don't think they had a discussion about the bid come on They did.

50:24So listen, I may not be bang on right, but I think it's a fair opinion. I don't think it was out of this world to say, they've had a chat there. You've experienced it. You've seen it. And then two days later, what happens? Arsenal get the deal done. It's a bit late. At the amount that West Ham wanted. So you go, well, that worked out well. and Arteta's played it well right because because because Arteta's probably gone right we'll make an incremental bit the bids are getting knocked back you know Man City come in didn't really look like they really wanted Pep and by the way at the time Kovacic has just signed so I was a bit like it was that's a bit strange how's that gonna work so I'm analyzing this which is what I'm supposed to do as a pundit and again I go back to it I think if if Gary Neville said it or Jamie Carragher said it, I don't think the backlash would have been as much.

51:22Just going back to that. I mean, I think obviously you've said that the judge's rule, you know, in your favor. Do you think he's, has he appealed? Where do you see this going now? Do you think that's, that's it done or you think he's going to appeal, he's going to keep fighting? I have no idea. I made, I made a public statement and said, you know, he has the right to defend himself. Of course, that's part of the legal process. and we're waiting because in 18 months there has been no defence. There's been no explanation as to why I was attacked over 45 tweets. As to why there was very little about punditry actually.

52:04Very little. It was likening me to serial killers and murderers, talking about my family, saying where my family lived.

52:13Eni Aluko:No way. This is not, I mean, that's got nothing to do with punditry. No, it's not. no explanation so we you know i have to respect the legal process and we'll see what we'll see what happens but i'm very glad that we've had a judgment because that was the reason i i decided to take this legal action is to give a certain status to this type of language it's now defamatory status which means there are legal consequences if you choose to attack somebody attack a woman in broadcasting for their race, for their gender, or, or, or, or suggest that they're, that they're, they're not good enough because of their race and gender.

52:54That is defamatory. Yes. And, and people need to understand that. Do you think you get a public apology from Joey Barton? I don't, you know, we'll see. At this stage, we'll see. We'll see. Would it mean anything? uh yeah i mean look i think public apologies uh are a way of holding somebody accountable um and and it's it's embarrassing right like it's um but we'll see you know i don't want to i don't want to say too much because we're still in that legal process yeah i know you've got to run soon it's been great to have you on the podcast i've got to ask very quickly though because chelsea great as you are where is the football i know the women's team it's going from strength to strength new owners we talk about them a lot on the pod where the men's team is going where the club is going you started this podcast by talking about emma hayes there is and you've talked about it john they just above all else win that is the word chelsea football club and then win or winner that's what you put underneath it what what do you make of where the club is at right now any yeah i think there's just been so much chaos you know and and i go back to the point i think you made it earlier about when a new manager comes in what gets underrated is just continuity you don't have to change everything right so emma left a really good environment for sonia bampastor to continue i think where chelsea men went wrong is the owners went let's just change everything you know what you need to change things for you know this is a club that won the champions league in 2021 you know had had great players lots of experience and i get they wanted to change direction with younger players but i think it was too much too soon and that leads to chaos there's 40 players in the dressing room which is just it's just so i think there's a lot of lessons been learned from just trying to just change too much too soon you don't have to do that a lot of money's obviously been spent and obviously I think it's three managed, three, four managers now.

55:02Eni Aluko:Yeah, yeah. I like Mareska though. I think he's, I think he's good. And I like Mareska because he seems like he's not that bothered about getting involved in the transfers and he's an on the grass coach. He's about the tactics and he's about developing players. I think a lot of these managers like the Poches and they start getting involved in, well, I've got to get involved in the transfers. I've got to put, you know, And that, you start clashing with owners when you do that. I think some coaches just need to focus on the grass. So I think Maresca's been good with that. And I think it's paid off.

55:34Do you think that the new owners, I mean, you've talked about it, but, you know, when Roman was there, it was about winning. It's about the W. We keep winning with one trophies. Do you think these new owners are there for the right reasons in terms of? It's a great question. You know? You know, I think I've worked in America, right? so I've worked with American owners. They're very much about the business, you know, in some ways don't actually necessarily understand the game. Now, I don't know. I don't know the owners of Chelsea. I've never met them. But I think there is, I think football is moving in that direction where it is very much a business decision.

56:17You know, what does our exit look like? You know, so you're buying a club at a certain price with the hope that it's going to, you know, you're going to be able to sell it. I think that's more the intention. Before it was actually about just being an owner of a football club and having that clout. I think it's becoming more calculated. I think I see that more from the Chelsea owners. I think there's a sort of calculation about, okay, how can we buy players, you know, who are young, sell them off to make money, put them on long-term contracts, which is fine. Like it's part of the strategy, but I don't know if the winning part that we've been used to as a Chelsea culture is necessarily central to everything that the club does.

57:11I agree listen Eni I know we've taken up a lot of your time I know you're a busy lady thank you so much you are a trailblazer you have made history lovely conversation on the podcast because you are our first female guest I'm honest you're welcome anytime weirdly I feel we're only halfway through where we could go with this conversation but you are a credit to yourself you're a credit to your family thank you so much for being on the podcast thank you guys I'll keep watching keep watching thank you so much cheers

57:45Hello and welcome to another episode of Geek Winkat Podcast.