Jay-Jay Okocha EXCLUSIVE: Mentoring Ronaldinho, Bolton Madness & Real Madrid ‘Rejection’

24:17John Obi Mikel:It is what it is, you know. So go and secure, you know, your future and future of your family and then come out. And then luckily for me, like I said before, PSG came at the right time. So I said, listen, this is my opportunity to come out, you know, and still playing. Top five football. But it was, I mean, 14 million pounds was the fee. I think at the time you became the most expensive African footballer. You've got George Weah not so long before that, World Plate of the Year. You then joined for a huge fee. You don't strike me as the kind of guy that feels pressure, JJ. No, not at all. Not at all.

24:59I always say it's their business. I mean, if it's what it takes to get me and you're willing to pay, that's fine, you know. I'm just a footballer. my job is to make sure that I give my best. You know, we are constantly under pressure or you don't let it get to you because, I mean, what can you do more than your best? You know, and I play from my heart. So if it's good enough, okay. If it's not good enough, that's fine. But what I don't want is going home knowing that I could have done better. I didn't do that. And that's what the fans see. They see when you put sweat on the jersey. And that's why maybe wherever I played, they loved me because they knew that I was giving my best.

25:57Everything. But again, I went to PSG at the wrong time. Why? Imagine going now. Okay. Okay.

26:06John Obi Mikel:You feel that was the wrong time. Yeah, it was the wrong time. But you did play with a lot of great players, though. Obviously, Ronaldinho came. Yeah, he came. Mikel Atete you played with, right? Was Pochettino there as well? Pochettino came. OK. But I only played one season with these players before I left. All right. You know? So... That's your phone, isn't it? It's my phone. It's business time. Oh, right. They call him Mohamed.

26:37Sorry about that.

26:40John Obi Mikel:It's fine.

26:44They're calling Mohamed. Sorry. It's Kailan's fault. I was waiting for her talk. Oh, Kailan's fault. But, yeah, so you felt that it was the wrong time. Yes, yes, because when I got there, I met players that were just happy to be there. parish parish and all that so the mentality wasn't the same okay you know it was my in my fourth year my fourth season that

27:19John Obi Mikel:the likes of Ateta Ateta came yeah two years after two years okay but he only stayed for one season and then Pochettino Gabriel Heinze came Ronald Dija as well You know, I managed to play one season with him and all that. And that was when I really enjoyed my stay. And I got, I was offered one more year, but I had enough. Really? Yeah, I had enough. I'd already played four seasons and I wanted to play in Premier League. Oh, right. You saw the bright lights of Bolton is what you're telling me. And Ronald, how did you, obviously, both of you, similar kind of players, isn't it? You guys, you know, skills and everything.

28:08John Obi Mikel:When you saw him coming in, are you thinking this is somebody who is probably maybe going to replace me or who I'm going to play with? Because you guys have a similar style of players. It was more like, finally I've got somebody that I can play with. Play with, okay. Because the understanding between us was something else. It's like going back to the root, somebody that grew up the same way you did, you know, learned how to play on the street as well and all that. But of course, I was sacrificing a bit for him. For him. So I was defending. I was sitting a bit more than usual to accommodate him because what he was giving us, I mean, It's somebody that you say, okay, you do your thing.

29:03I'll run for you. Right.

29:05John Obi Mikel:You know? Right. So, yeah, but then... That was good, though, for you to be able to recognize and say, you know what, okay, I'll let you go do your thing. Because I play a similar way as you do, but I will be the one to defend a little bit and let you do it. That's a sacrifice. Because of experience as well, you know, at that stage in my career, that tactically I was better than him. Better than him. Right. And that was where he had issues with Fernandez. So Fernandez also was struggling to play both of us. But he would say, I prefer playing you than him because he's still young. He will learn, you know, you give us better balance.

29:50Okay. And sometimes I would say both of us can play together. Oh, right. So he didn't take it well because he knew he was good enough to be starting, but he wasn't really starting him. Wow. Okay. But if we are losing, then he would throw all of us in. Unless you go do your thing. You know, so I remember that was what we had to deal with.

30:15John Obi Mikel:There's so many stories we, everybody, we all hear about Ronaldinho, you know, fantastic player, amazing player. But one thing that people always talk about, I mean, back then in Paris, what his nightlife, you know, how he enjoyed his life. And I watched a documentary of him the other day. He just said, that's how I want to play. I have to enjoy myself to be off the pitch, to be able to perform well. Was that how you saw it? No, I mean, he was a different person when I was there because that was his first year in Europe. and his first club, you know. So I think he was trying to understand how life is in Europe.

31:01You know, so later, of course, maybe when he got used to the lifestyle and all that, he started enjoying himself. But yeah, I mean, whatever works for you. Yeah. But of course, like you know, our life off the pitch is even more important than on the pitch. Because that's where the preparation is. But in training, JJ, you and Ronaldinho. In training, I mean, they find it difficult to play us on the same side. Because no one would get the ball. Imagine us in our peak, you know. It was incredible.

31:40John Obi Mikel:You're doing your trick, he's doing his trick. You know, I was looking forward to going to training. Wow. Just for him. To watch him. Yeah, and he watches me as well. Watches you play as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was more like, okay, what have you got? What have you got? So it was fun. So every day you go into training and try to bring out new tricks. Yes. And he's also doing the same. Yeah. Did you also, did you ever look at him and be like, you know what? I'm going to steal that trick from you. Or he stole from you some tricks as well. Well, it wasn't like we were trying to copy each other.

32:13You know, we were more like admiring what you can offer. So I leave it for you. Right. Look, this is me. This is you. This is you, you know? But yeah, I mean, I'm happy that later on he could say that he got inspired by me and also the way I took him because he was young when he came and all that. But there was no competition. It was just, I was admiring, you know, the talent that he has, you know, and I mean, great person as well because he's always smiling. Yeah, always. Just like you, yeah. He's always smiling, you know. And we had a lot of issues with Fernandez and I couldn't understand why.

32:59And to be honest, that was why I left, you know, because he would come into the dressing room. We're just gisting, laughing, even though we were struggling with the language, but we could understand each other, you know. And he would come into the dressing room,

33:16John Obi Mikel:like, oh, oh, why are you laughing? Why are you smiling? Go on the bike. We've not started training yet. You know, so we didn't like that he was picking on us. You know, I mean, why shouldn't we smile before training, not even in training and all. So he was funny and we didn't really enjoy our time with him. It's interesting because Luis Fernandez, you're talking about, you've touched on Ronaldinho, of course, a big part of our kind of footballing lives and what he did going on to Barcelona. Mikel Arteta and Mauricio Pochettino, JJ, in that dressing room, they've gone on to become successful managers.

34:03What were they like? Were they vocal in the dressing room? Could you tell that they had something that they would go on to become good coaches? You know, you can't predict who will become a manager or whatever, but you could see, you can tell when a player is organized, you know, when he's serious and all that. Pochettino was serious because he was, I think, 33 when he came out. He came towards the end of his career. Mikael, on the other hand, was very young. He was 18, I think. He came from Barcelona youth. but the talent that he showed how disciplined he was the maturity that he showed on the pitch of course on the pitch he couldn't say a word to anybody because he was that young but his talent was undeniably great to see you know he was keeping things simple but the precision the understanding, the passes that he could see, you know, at that young age, we were like, you know, this is another one, you know.

35:22And of course, Heinze as well. You know, he was a fighter.

35:26John Obi Mikel:Heinze, yeah. He was aggressive, you know. So they added value to the team, you know. For me, that was when, and credit to Fernandez, because he brought all of them from Spain, you know, and they made a lot of difference because it was then fun playing with good players, you know. But of course, the language barrier as well made a big difference for us. We couldn't really communicate, you know, but absolutely. You could see that there. Yeah. One other player you played with, I played with as well, was Nikolos Anelka. Obviously, you played with him in his early days. How good was he? Because he came to us when he was a little bit older.

36:16John Obi Mikel:It was the end of his career, but was still amazing. Anerka, for me, it's one of your complete strikers. He's quick. He's got skills. He moves well. He's strong. you know but the issue I had then with Anerka is you don't know which Anerka with Tona you know he gets moody sometimes you don't really know what he's thinking and all that but when you understand him what a great guy yeah what a fantastic guy and he's got great sense of humor he does does he you know but he's to know how to get that out of him you know that's the thing But what a player. Yeah, what a guy. No, you're right. Because the same thing when he came to us.

37:08John Obi Mikel:Very quiet. He doesn't speak to a lot of people. But you have to know him really well. But I think that's the thing, though. I think he's a little bit misunderstood. People don't understand him that well. Nicolas have to know you to be able to open up. And that's exactly what happened when he came to us. Did you have him at Bolton as well? Yeah. And was he different? Did you see a big difference? Bolton and PSG. You saw him, a young boy. I say young boy. He was a young man coming from Real Madrid. He'd just won the European Cup. Fell out with, I think, Florentino. Fell out with the Real Madrid fans as well.

37:40Came to PSG. But then you had him at Bolton sometime later. Did you see a big difference in him, JJ? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I saw maturity, you know. And I mean, that's the great thing we had going for us at Bolton, which people didn't realize, you know. They thought that Bolton was still that struggling Bolton until we started finishing top 10, played the Europa Cup and all that. That was when people started taking us serious, because gradually we got rid of those players that were happy to be in the Premier League, that gained promotion with the team. So we brought in players that are struggling in their clothes, but have tested success.

38:29Yes. You know? And because our budget was low, we could get them on loan. We could, you know, because their clubs wanted to get rid of them. Yeah, I was going to say that.

38:40John Obi Mikel:I was going to ask that question. But my question was going to be like, not in a disrespectful way, but it was players that were almost at the end of their career. So it's like a bomb squad, isn't it? It is. assembled by Sam Aladais. How did he, Sam Aladais, get the best out of you guys? Just like you've said, you guys finished sixth, and that was absolutely fantastic. How did he get the best out of you guys, especially you? Because you played some of your best football there as well. Sam's management, man management scale is second to none.

39:21He understood that it's give and take. you know if you give him result he will give you whatever I tell you that some days if we win a game on Saturday Sam will tell us come in on Thursday

39:37John Obi Mikel:no way I'm telling you take your missus out you know go shopping have fun come in on Thursday and we'll be like because we are not used to it you know but you train on your own come in on Thursday and you will be fresh wow and Saturday we will get again so he did it and we won like five games in a row or six so he would just come in and say you know what you do to get your days off wow win football matches but then we went to Postmark and got hammered came back home 3am he said see you guys at 7 the next day it's 7 morning 7 morning yeah no we go home like 3 a.m. he said see you guys at 7 wow you know so it's give and take yes you know you have to you have to end your days a few words about our proud sponsors betwinner is your reliable partner in the world of sports betting enjoy placing bets on any sports event with great alts and maximum convenience.

40:52John Obi Mikel:Visit BetWinner.com now. But, JJ, you know, Paris, I've never been. Beautiful city. You're there. You've been offered another year. Ronaldinho's there. You're enjoying your football. How does Big Sam convince you to leave one of the most beautiful cities on the planet with a great of respects to Bolton to move there? He came at the right time. and to be honest I didn't do my race side you thought you were joining Bournemouth I thought you know when you think that everywhere in England it's nice because before then I'd been to London I played against my United you know Manchester so and when I heard Bolton is just 10 minutes away or 15 minutes away from Manchester.

41:50So I was like, oh, it's the same level, you know. So when I came, when I was invited to negotiate, they picked me up at Manchester Airport, drove me straight to the stadium. And, you know, the stadium is beautiful. You know, I had a tour with them of the stadium, hotel, everything. What was it? This looks nice. Interesting. They didn't take me to the training ground. They kept that away from me? They kept that away from me.

42:32John Obi Mikel:You might change your mind. So it was after I signed and resumed training, I went to the training ground. the changing room was cabin. The shower was just three people at a time. You know, you have to queue. You have to queue. I said, oh, JJ, what are you doing here? You know, so I came first. I left my family in Paris. So, but, you know, as a football person, I could leave. anywhere. And the saving grace also was that Manchester was just 10-15 minutes away so the missus could go do her shopping or whatever because I was local. I lived in Bolton. What matters the most for me is football. Because that's what I'm there to do.

43:33That's why I'm getting paid. Lifestyle or whatever will come later. So I said, listen, I have to stay close to the training ground. So I was local. But to be honest, the difference was day and night.

43:50John Obi Mikel:So you have to finish training and you have to wait and queue to take a shower. Because it's only three showers. Yeah, it was only three showers and the first come first serve. But yeah, JJ, you joined Ivan Campbell. Yuri Joykaef, Mario Jardel, Fernando Hiero. Yeah. Am I missing Yuri Joy? I've mentioned Yuri. Nicholas Melko. We had an amazing, an amazing, we kept bringing in players that were unbelievable, that people thought that could never, but we knew that we could get one year or two years of them. And while doing that, we are building stronger, young players. And we know that those players are the ones that were attracted, the good young players.

44:44And to be fair, it worked. Because not only that we were finishing top half, we now build training grounds. We now build proper changing room. So for us, we grew like a family. We blended because we had all sorts of nationality in the dressing room. And it was so fun. It was so, we had French-speaking players. We had Spanish. We had Idina Kata from Japan. We had Brazilians. Yeah, yeah.

45:29John Obi Mikel:All sorts, Africans. Because we later on brought in Duv. Duv, yeah. When he was having a huge deal. LH Dew, LH Dew, Kale Fadiga, and all that. So we had players that had played at the highest level and not just played, they were competing. So that made us stronger. That made us stronger. We were like a bunch of missionaries, but we blended because we all knew that we had one target, which is, you know, getting results and being comfortable. And for Sam, once we get to that 40 points mark, oh, it's holiday. We can go to Dubai. He will take us to Dubai. Once you get to 40 points, that's it, you save.

46:23John Obi Mikel:That's our job done. You then went on, you captained the team. Your relationship with Big Sam was really, really good, I could tell because I saw that. How did that come about, your relationship with him? No, I think it was because of my commitment, you know. And also, I had a few offers. Did you? After my first season, you know, to move. To win? Well, I can, to Tottenham, for example. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. And he knew that, he knew that, listen, maybe I'm bigger than the club, you know, and offers were coming. Some they told me, some they didn't. They didn't tell you. Oh, they didn't tell. Okay, okay.

47:09But then I had a family that just settled down, you know, because my daughter was four when we moved there and my son was like three months old or whatever. So I didn't fancy moving, you know. Although, like Tottenham, if the offer was great, I would have. Okay. I would have. You would have gone. I would have gone. You know, but I couldn't believe that Tottenham could not even match Bolton's offer. Oh, wow. You know, so I felt like I'm not needed as well. you know if you need someone at least you you go extra mile to get that player you know so so i stayed and and he he he respected that decision you know and and he knew i was committed as well so he he said well i think with your mentality with your drive and all that i feel that you will take us to the next level.

48:20Right. So he gave me the captain's plan to drive the team. And luckily for us, it worked, you know, because then I had to come out of my shell and yeah, being vocal, you know, talking to the players. And also, of course, with respect, you know, you know how players, you have to talk to players with respect. Yeah. You have to know how to approach a player. You need to approach a player with respect and know how to deal with him and all that. And also because I could speak a bit of French and all that, so it helped, you know. So, yeah, I mean, it was an amazing time.

49:02John Obi Mikel:And your famous, famous goal celebration, how did that come about? The one you did with Big Sal? What is it about? Tell us about it. It was just me having fun, you know. it was just me trying to be free, you know, to, to enjoy my moment, you know, because I knew I wasn't going to win the league with Bolton. I knew I wasn't going to play in Champions League with Bolton, but I'm touching hearts, you know, I'm winning hearts. I'm being celebrated, you know, and then why don't I just enjoy it, you know, and give them something that they've never seen. You know, so it was happy days. So sometimes I would see something and I would tell my daughter, oh, I think if I'm school, I'm going to do this.

49:59And she would be like, I know that you can't see me. So it was just me expressing myself, you know, showing the fun side of me.

50:09John Obi Mikel:And then moving to the Premier League, did you know you knew obviously you knew how tough the Premier League were very physical tackles everything did you ever thought like okay I'm coming to one of the toughest leagues in the world I have to change the way I play I wouldn't I wouldn't be given much time on the board or you thought you know what nope I'm going to come and I'll play the same way because we saw you did some crazy things to play as you know where you came there was one you did in the touchline corner where you flicked it up I don't know who that was I think Repala. You see, I wasn't a tackler.

50:51Physically, I was strong as a player, but not the one that I would go and challenge a player and win the ball off him or whatever. But I knew I could. I could play with the ball. And I knew that English players are hard. You know, they don't really think that much. They make decisions and they stick to it, you know. It's like pre-plan, I'm going to tackle. So whatever else you're coming up with, they stick to that tackle. That's right, but you have to be quick. You have to, you know. So I knew that I was coming to a tougher league. I wanted to challenge myself as well because the question was can he cope with his style of play can he be able to play in the Premier League and that was the challenge I took on so the first opportunity I got then to play in the Premier League was bought and I said I'm taking it I don't care if they're a big club or whatever I'm taking it to show that I can cope.

52:10And the only way I knew I could cope was being myself. Sticking to my identity. Because I can't learn how to tackle. We have thousands of players that are better than me. Is that the reason why I'm going there? No. The reason why I'm going there is to bring something different. And to change the mentality of the club. that I'm playing for, you know, to make sure that Bolton is no longer seen as a struggling team. Yeah, because we read, right, there was an article, I think an interview you gave some years after, JJ, when they were relegated and you had said, well, it feels a little bit a waste of my time.

52:56All of those great players that you've mentioned came to that club. They needed to invest in the grassroots to become a Premier League staple. They have in there now. Where are they? League one, they're in the playoffs. League one, yeah. So when you reflect on it, do you stick by that? Does part of you regret the fact that you gave four years of your life? I don't regret, you know. I think regret is a bit too hard sometimes, you know. If you make a decision, you stick with it, you die with it, you know. And it was the right decision because some people have got the opportunity to win titles, some people have got the opportunity to save lives.

53:44Because sometimes we don't understand how deep football is. I remember my first season when we were really struggling. If I go to do grocery, old women are not... Are you keeping us up? Yeah. I'm like... So these people are following.

54:10John Obi Mikel:Yeah, what are you doing? Yeah. They even recognized me doing my grocery. And all they wanted was for us to keep them up. Stay up, yeah. To stay up. For them, that's success. Because I didn't know that Barton had never played two seasons in a row. Wow. Before I signed. I didn't care. Yeah. You know, so that was why Sam, we had a bet that if we stay up, he's going to do the dance with me. Oh, right. So that's where that dance came from. Yes. So you both had a bet that if you stayed up, he would do the dance with you. He would do the dance with you because I used to do the dance with Ben and Mendy.

54:52John Obi Mikel:Yeah, yeah. Mendy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. So how did you, did you teach him the dance? Did you pre-plan it? No, we didn't pre-plan it. I don't know if he was practicing. But, I mean, I was surprised that he got it right. He did. He did get it right. He did, you know. But, I mean, yeah, it was a top season for all of us, you know. I mean, relegation battle, I can tell you, was hell. And then that was when I was like, if I'm going to stay here, things can't continue like this, you know, because it's not healthy for all of us, you know. And then we started building, you know, and then we got the club to where we got the club, you know.

55:48And then, like you practically said, I now saw the club. And for me, it's because the people that were running the club were not ambitious enough. You know, our drive and their drive was not on the same level. Because you can't give what you don't have.

56:14Because they had the opportunity to stabilize the club. But unfortunately, they didn't do it.

56:24John Obi Mikel:I read somewhere where you said, obviously, you played for PSG. But then you felt you could, obviously, with the talent that you have, the player that you have, you thought you deserve to play in bigger clubs and win big titles. And I read you said it might have something to do a little bit with racism. them. What do you mean by that? Well, I would not say racism, you know, because

56:57I believe that there is discrimination. You know, and I'm sure you know, as an African player, you have to be ten times better than European players to stand any chance. things got better during your time I'll tell you you know in Germany then each club is allowed to have three foreign players no matter where they are from three non German players so you can imagine how slim that is the chances for a young African player to make it to make you think

57:42John Obi Mikel:and you know then of course the level of racism was yeah out of this world because no social media no nothing and and we could not speak up we had no voice no voice rather than to accept it because your focus should be your goal you know and you know our mentality in Africa I can't come back home and tell my dad I'm back because they called me a nigger. Yeah. You can't do that. You can't do that, you know, because the poor family are depending on you. So that's not good enough to... So, well, we used to laugh at it, you know. In as much as it hurts, I mean, you know that you are there for a different reason.

58:44That reason is bigger than whatever is thrown at you. It limited some of us the opportunity to play in a bigger club. I can tell you now, I had an offer from last year when I was in Frankfurt. They said that they want to use me to break that barrier. of having an Africa play for them. They told you that? Yes. You know, things have changed. You know, things have changed because actions have been taken down. Things have been done towards that. You know, but then, so I looked at myself. I said, am I now a freedom fighter? They want to use you. Just a young football player. so that I that I'm coping with what you people are seeing does not mean that I love it you know so I that was a day breaker for me you know so so I mean some some then I mean you you get enough and they will tell you listen you can't go to Nations Cup wow wow you know they don't want you playing in the Nations Cup and I feel like come on now wow can you tell your players not to go to the nation to the Euro this who will pay to play for our nation wow you know wow that was why I said listen maybe I could have you know because I mean if you look at some teams and go through the squad there's no way you not think that you make that squad you know but it is what it is I mean to be honest I had a fantastic career I did my best you know and I've got no regrets but of course because you you knew I knew that okay maybe I could have gone a step if I was an European

1:01:00John Obi Mikel:or a Brazilian or whatever you know and that's it That's the honest truth. Wow. You say you have no regrets. You won the Olympics. You won the African Cup of Nations. We were talking about that great Nigerian team. You go through all the names. Any part of you, JJ, think we could have won more? 100%. 100%. And that's life for you. That's why you have to see the bigger picture and realize that some things are not meant to be. and be happy for those that went a notch higher and all that because it is destiny. 94, I think we had maybe one of the best Nigerian team ever. But we were just happy to be at the World Cup because it was the first time.

1:01:55We didn't even know how good we were. Only after, did you think? Only after.

1:02:02John Obi Mikel:You guys had some... Because with small experience and small belief or whatever, we could have... Could have won it? Could have gone all the way, you know. And the reason why I'm saying this is because we justified it in 1996. Because it was like half of the team played that Olympics. and that we knew that okay we've got what it takes now to challenge to compete And if we were before 94, that game against Brazil that it was done and dusted would have thrown in the tower. But because we've now realized how good we are. You have the belief now. We had the belief that, you know, it's not over until it's over.

1:02:55And that was what helped us to win the Olympics.

1:02:58John Obi Mikel:Yeah, that was incredible. Like, I remember being a kid watching that. It was unbelievable. I mean, I think it was Kano's called that. Kano, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Unbelievable. Like, you guys had some, yeah, like the team then was incredible. So going there, like you said, you now have the belief that you have such an amazing team. And coming up against Brazil, how did you guys feel in the final? Did you think, okay, we have a chance here? You know, we had played them already in the group stage and we lost one nail. So it was like, okay, lightning can strike twice, you know? We have the opportunity now to make amends, you know?

1:03:47And that was what happened because we had to believe, you know? Even though it took us last minute to get the equalizer, thanks to me because I missed a penalty earlier on. That would have given us enough time to maybe get an early goal. But everything worked out fine because then you never know. We're saying it now because we won. You have to give respect to that Brazilian team because they had some players in that squad as well. And also, touching back on what I said before, if you look at where they went to, most of their players after that tournament, you will not realize what I'm saying because we that won it.

1:04:40John Obi Mikel:Yeah. Right, right. Okay. They all got bigger moves and most of you didn't. Right. You know, because after that game, we had to play Argentina and we beat them as well. Wow. Yeah. So yeah, but you know, another handicap that we had was our government. We were having issues then with South Africa. Okay. So because of that, they stopped us from going to the Nations Cup 1996. After we had won it with the team in 94. Right. So we missed out 96. Oh, you missed out in 96? Yes, in 98. Yeah. Yeah. Our president stopped us from going in 96. CAF now ban us in 98. Wow. And that team, that goal. And that team, that team, we lost so many of them.

1:05:42Two nations. Because they were two nations. So imagine I played five.

1:05:47John Obi Mikel:It could have been seven. Seven. And you, with that team that you had, you believe that you guys could have at least won, maybe another one? Easily. I'm telling you. Because when it comes to Africa then, we had the players that were playing in Europe, the most players that were playing in Europe. And not just, they were playing in decent clubs as well. And did you think that looking back at it, like maybe not getting that big move or playing in the big top, top club, did you think that was probably what hindered you from, I know you came second maybe a couple of times, African player of the age.

1:06:38John Obi Mikel:Did you think if you had played in the top, top, that would have given you the chance to maybe go on to actually winning it? No, no, not really. Not really. I mean, I can openly say now that then, of course, a lot of football politics is in place, you know. Because some people, some players, they played in big clubs. They won everything. But you, for example, did they wife? I came second year. You understand what I'm saying? When I won everything, yeah. So what do you need to win to, you know, what are the criteria? You know, I won BBC Player of the Year twice in a row, but I see they didn't win it.

1:07:19Wow.

1:07:22So when you look at it, some things are not meant to be. And you just laugh at it. The most important thing is what did you make of your career? What did you get out of your career? You know, and... When I listen to you, JJ, you know the game. I see that you're passionate about the game. You know, on this podcast, John has been very outspoken about the politics. Let's call it that, the politics within it. John has name checked you a couple of times. We need people like JJ at the top. NFF, African football needs people that understands the game to stop making the mistakes that it's been making seemingly for generations.

1:08:06Would it interest you, JJ, Does moving into a role where you help shape the future of African football, Nigerian football, would it interest you? Well, of course. I mean, it would be unfair to football lovers, for someone like me to say, oh, no, I'm not interested. But the truth is that the mess is so bad that… You wouldn't want to touch it. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah. You know. It's too entrenched. Sometimes you ask yourself, is it worth it to try? What if you don't succeed? You know, because you have good intention. But it's not just you. You need a team. So are you all on the same page?

1:09:03Which people are you going to work with? I tried it a bit. I went to Delta State. I took the... But when I saw what was going on, I left. You know?

1:09:17John Obi Mikel:I left. I said, listen, it's not worth it. But to be honest, sometimes also I think the history will not forgive us if we keep quiet. And that's why I admire your courage to speak at... You know how our place is. Yeah. Sometimes if you say the truth, you create enemies. So it's like they've chased us back into our shells because you can't even say that, okay, we didn't do well. And they will accept it. They'll be like, oh, why didn't you call me? Must you say it out there? how do we get better if we can't call a spade a spade and to be honest all of us are suffering from it you know life gets a lot easier if we're winning what cup is coming or we're not taking part and if not that maybe our names have gone beyond border nobody will remember us because Nigeria is not taking part you know so now we are leveraging on the things that we did in europe with our clubs and not the national team and normally should be the other way around and and these things can be fixed and that's the annoying part of it because it's not rocket science it's just to put the good structure and get people that can add value, value chain.

1:10:57Yes, I will not say, oh, that the ones that are there that are totally bad or whatever, but maybe they've reached their limit. Maybe they don't know any better. And my belief is that we all have a role to play. In an office, you have secretary, you have PA, you have a team. Yeah. You know, in football, you have defenders, you have strikers, you have a team. But you can't say that former football players have no role when it comes to administration, you know, the administrative part of the game. That is wrong. I mean, if someone like you shows up on this player's training ground, speaks volume.

1:11:46Just something as simple as that.

1:11:48John Obi Mikel:Yeah, simple as that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They need to see people who's been there, done it. You know, so that they can also, when you talk, they can also listen to you. Players, we are like babies. If you're making sense, we listen to you. If you're not making sense, we'll bugger off. And you switch off. Yeah. You know, and that's our biggest problem. Our biggest problem is off-the-pitch activities, how we manage our efforts. Because they don't see those things that we see as footballers being important. You know? Yeah. I know how many times they've told us, go and bring the club back. Are we going to steal it?

1:12:32We need good preparation. We need good camping sites. We need a nation like Nigeria.

1:12:38John Obi Mikel:We don't have any camping sites for the nation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. Sometimes we'll be owing hotels. Hotels, yeah. Crazy. It's crazy. You see players fighting during tournaments for their bonuses. Come on, mate. It's amateur. Yeah, yeah, that's not good enough. Betwinner, your bets, your wins. You know, John and yourself, JJ, such bastions for African football. And yet, I can't help but think we saw in the recent African Cup of Nations what happened Senegalese players off the pitch come back on then some 50 days 90 days 90 days later Senegal are no longer African Cup of Nations winners it does not look good no no and it cripples us because what do what do you want to say yeah What do you want to say?

1:13:41When the whole world are watching and saying what we are, the mess that we are doing. Yeah. Yeah.

1:13:47John Obi Mikel:So what can you say? Yeah, because we are there trying to defend African football. Trying to promote African football. Fighting with our former colleagues and not that. Yeah. And then... That happens, yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. But nevertheless, less with our experience at exposure and all that we know that it can be fixed you know and the worst thing that we can do is to give up because it's not longer about us anymore you know it's about the next generation you know and that and and my belief is that whatever you want to do regarding Africa or your nation, you have to be selfless because you can't really win much.

1:14:43But if you understand how things work, you might have the opportunity to leave your legacy and that's it. But it will come with a lot of risk. So it is a difficult call. I understand. I also feel like, okay, maybe it's the right time to come out.

1:15:05John Obi Mikel:Yeah, because a lot of people are looking and thinking, if there is one person, obviously, you are the guy who's, you know, what you've done, you know, the level in which you played, you're still there. A lot of people feel like you're the one that can actually come out and go for it. You know, and I believe so. I believe so. And I think you should. Obviously, I've said it so many times, but, and I've come out and I said, the people who were there, they have to go because it's twice in a row now we haven't qualified for the World Cup. We have to put things in place if we are to go to the next World Cup, because you're thinking, okay, it's two now.

1:15:47John Obi Mikel:It comes pretty quickly again that if we don't put things right, leading up to the next one, we might not go again. So we have to put things in place. And I believe that they've been there twice in a row we haven't qualified. they have to go. I keep saying it. And like you said, I've created so many enemies, but I always say this. No, no, no. Listen, somebody like me would say kudos to you because you're doing something that maybe some of us haven't got the courage to do. Maybe because I live back home here. They'll come to your door. Maybe the NFL president is my friend and whatever. And you know our mentality.

1:16:31We try to protect ourselves. We try to sweep things under the ground. But there's a limit to what you can take as well. Because whether we like it or not, it's affecting me as well.

1:16:48John Obi Mikel:Because I get asked, oh, how come Nigeria didn't qualify? What are you guys doing? Why can't you fix your house? ever. So, if I say that I'm not thinking about it, I'll be lying. I am, because the pressure is on. And we need to get it right. We have to, yeah. Because we all know that we are better than what we are doing at the moment, or where we are. You know, we shouldn't be where we are. You know, qualification wasn't really that big issue for us. Difficult, no? No, exactly, yeah. The teams we played against, yeah. I missed one. But it was because also the office. How can we be playing last qualifying match if we know that if we win, we qualify?

1:17:40We took it to Cano. Cano. So imagine coming from London, from Chelsea, to come play in Cano. In Cano. The heat. So we were all like foreigners. You know, so these are little things that they don't understand. Because your players have to feel at home. They have to be comfortable. They must have a home ground. During our time, Lagos was our home ground. You know, we were spitting fire here. But after Lagos, it's like we don't have a home. you go to Akwaibong, it's like you're playing away from home. True. Because the crowd, they're not even there, not that passionate there. And so these are the things that we need to fix.

1:18:41And because we've been there, we know how important these things are for players. Because whether you like it or not, it's a resort game. Yeah.

1:18:53John Obi Mikel:It's a resort game. Yeah. And we do have the players. We do have the talent. You know, talking about the players. When I came into the national team was when you were retiring, right? So you kind of passed the baton to me. And you ran with me. And then I ran with him. And then, of course, just before I retired, you're Alexi Wobin. What have you made about his progress with the national team? You think he's lived up to the expectations, obviously? It took a while. Yeah. If I may be honest, it took a while. And why? Like you rightly said, expectations. He's a different kind of player. Alice grew up in England.

1:19:51his foundation is not like mine. Sure. So he had to get used to the culture, the mentality, the style of football. African football is different. Yeah. You know, and players that you're playing with are different players, not your as-know. Colleagues, yeah. Colleagues, yeah. You know? And again, it takes a good manager to know, okay, this is where he will fit in. This is where I will get the best out of him. You know, because I can tell you, Alex may have pace in Europe, but in Africa, he doesn't have pace to play on the wings. And in Nigeria, we've always had pace. Pace on the wings, yes. up in gear.

1:20:49Yeah. You know? So, they were not making life easy for him. And that was why he was like, he wasn't living up to expectations. He was giving his best shot. Not until they started playing him now in this right position that everybody, he is a defense player. He is a... But it's the same alles. Yeah. It's just knowing how to use him and wear, and you get the best out of him. It's like when he moved to Everton, he struggled as well. But look at him. He's close. Fuller.

1:21:29John Obi Mikel:Fuller man. Yeah, yeah. You're playing really well. I think, actually, like you said, it took him a bit of time, but I think he's getting better with age. Yeah. This is the first time I watched him in the national team with the AFCON. I said it because, obviously, we worked together. I said it. This is the best I've seen him play. He looked more mature the way he was playing. Everything was going through him. Those passes that we used to see. And yeah, it took him a bit of time. But now you can see his his understanding the game a lot more and his quality is coming out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, players grow with time.

1:22:05They mature with time and all that. But some some people have it a bit easier. Yeah. Because right from onset, managers know what they want from you. Know where to use. You know how.

1:22:20John Obi Mikel:And it helps. It helps. I can also use you as an example. Because you played here a bit before you left, you understood African football and European football. your role in Chelsea was different from you but when you come you are Chelsea yeah because you know what is required yeah yeah just conscious of time last couple from certainly from sorry just on the Alex I just need to ask did he ever call you a few times to ask for advice like did he like used to I call him I call him you know these Gen Z boys They will never call you. But if I have a message, I talk to his dad. Okay. Because I don't want to put pressure.

1:23:23Too much pressure on him. Okay. You know? So I've always been behind the scenes somehow and let his dad be the one. Because he stays with him every day. and his dad played a bit as well. Okay. You know, so, so he worked, you know, and yeah, sometimes, I mean, I'll test him and say, okay, how are you? Hope you're nice game or whatever. It's just to encourage him. So you're still watching the game, which leads to the question that John and I were discussing earlier. There are so many great footballers today. The game has changed. It's very much structured. The Mavericks, the Maestros, the Magicians, call them what you will, a feeling that they're slowly going out of the game.

1:24:15When you watch it today, JJ, who's the player that most reminds you of yourself? Is there anyone that comes to mind? It's difficult, you know, because like you rightly said, things have changed. Football have changed. But I think also what has changed is players' mentality. Because I can say for the fact that some managers wanted to change me. Yeah. Oh, you're holding on to the ball too long. You know? But that's my strength. if I can get it right. I need to make the right decisions, know when to hold on to the ball. And when I get encouraged, then I do it right. I do it better even, you know.

1:25:19But now, I think a lot of players are learning how to play football.

1:25:29Too many players are not that naturally gifted anymore. You know, it's like once you can do the basis and you're a good athlete, you're good enough. You know that when you get to the byline, you have to cross it, you have to, you know. And that's why we're not seeing enough of that individual creativity. creativity yeah yeah yeah you know so but it's not their fault as well because football now they they they has gone to another level it's strictly business now the money involved now i think it's taking away that flair that quality that yeah because it's just it's all about winning It's all about winning.

1:26:25It's all about winning. If you're not getting results, you're gone.

1:26:28John Obi Mikel:If you're not so, the pressure is... Yeah, yeah. It's insane. Players are Ryan Shek. You must enjoy watching him, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, because he's a... He's a brilliant player, you know. He's a... And he's lucky because he's got a manager that encourages... Allows him, yeah, to do it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, he's wondering. This is a question you probably had a million times before. But in your opinion, and we're probably maybe in your era, when you look at all the African players, who is the best? Who is the best that you've come across, JJ, where you say that player represents everything that is good about African football?

1:27:13At the moment. In your lifetime? In my lifetime. Oh, I'll give it to judge where. I'll give it to Jojua You think Jojua is the greatest African player Of all time? I think so He's still the only one that wants to

1:27:30John Obi Mikel:So stats True You know, justifies it A lot of people say Samuel Eto 'o A lot of people say DJ Droga I saw Eto 'o play I played against Eto 'o Great player DJ Droga great player but George Weah George Weah yeah and you know again it's easier when you are around good players true he's from Liberia yeah you understand what I'm saying and to go on and to win yeah wow yeah yeah come on yeah that's true we still have the likes of Abedi Pele and all that you know but George Weah that's true for me that's my own yeah of course that's who is the who is the one player you played against and you left the pitch thinking wow that guy today was tough to be honest no no really because I wasn't thinking about it my focus was my strength when I helped the ball.

1:28:48And I don't think anybody was that, you know, tough to beat. Wow. Yes, you might with extra effort in thinking when you come across a player like you, Patrick Vieira, Michael Essien, Roy Keane, and all that. But they will also tell you that we don't like playing against this guy because they don't know what to expect. Yeah. You know. So I respect their qualities, but also I think they should respect mine as well. So I, unless, and nobody mamac me, that's when you can say, okay, yeah, I wasn't getting on the ball. I know that ball. If you let me get on the ball, I mean, to game over. That's my strength, you know?

1:29:49Yeah. So, but there are some players that you don't go near because they are mean. You have to know that as well. They can end your career. Yeah. And a player like Rigobesong. Oh, yeah. You know, those are players that tackle to hurt you. Not just to tackle you, but to hurt you. Wow. You know, so that you don't come near. Come back next time. It was who was harder, Rigober Song or Taribo West? Taribo West. Taribo as well was another. But Taribo had more skills than he could play. He could play. He was tough, but he could play more than Rigober. I could talk football with this man all day. I think we've kept him all day as well.

1:30:38JJ, it's been brilliant to have you on the Obi-Wan podcast. Thank you. It really has. two Nigerian legends. You finally got them, John. Finally. I'm sorry you took this away, but I mean, you know, you're my kid brother. Exactly. I mean, this is an opportunity to say that I'm proud of what you're doing. Thank you. I'm proud of what you've achieved.

1:31:03John Obi Mikel:And we love you. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Coming from you, I mean, you, like I said, before we started, you paved the way for me. like watching you as a kid, you know, growing up. I've always said, you know, I want to, I want to be like JJ growing up, you know. Never quite got there. No, I didn't have the skills he had. Oh, boy. Yeah. I mean, all the trophies that he would have been, if I can have the replica.

1:31:37Well, we're done. Thank you so much. Thank you, JJ. Thank you. You