In short
An evangelical pastor and his son recount how the father believed homosexuality was a sin, then watched his 15-year-old son come out as gay, forcing both to rethink theology and church life.
Guests and backgrounds
Bill White is an evangelical pastor in Long Beach, California. His son Timothy White grew up there in the early 2000s and later came out at 15. (The episode is presented as a New York Times Opinion “The Opinions” conversation.)
Key claims
Bill says he initially feared Timothy’s sexuality would end his faith; Timothy says he felt ready for “growth and full self-realization” and believed he could be “a Christian and be gay.” Bill later describes losing his church and certainty, but calling the change “the best thing that ever happened.”
Notable examples
A 2013 journal entry after Timothy first questioned being gay; a mall billboard moment where Bill realized Timothy was staring at a man; a March 14, 2015 Starbucks conversation where Timothy said he was “pretty sure” he was gay; subsequent backlash from “left and right,” including calls to suspend ordination.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOBill and Timothy's Background
0:31 to 2:12
Bill introduces himself as an evangelical pastor and shares his son's early life.
“This is The Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times opinion.”
Raising a Christian Man
2:12 to 3:38
Bill discusses his efforts to raise Timothy in a traditional evangelical context.
“When Timothy turned about eight years old, our church had gone through some learnings around manhood.”
Open Conversations About Sexuality
3:38 to 4:44
Timothy reflects on the open discussions he had with his dad about sexuality.
“But Timothy did not fit that mold very well at all.”
Timothy's Internal Struggle
4:44 to 7:10
Timothy shares his conflict between faith and his sexuality as he grows up.
“There were these people who said they were Christian, and they thought the Bible was kind of interesting, Jesus was a decent moral teacher, and homosexuality was just fine.”
The Emotional Journaling
7:10 to 9:36
Bill reads his emotional journal entry about his feelings regarding Timothy's sexuality.
“But I will not disguise to you what is going on in my heart and soul and mind.”
The Moment of Realization
9:36 to 11:14
Bill recounts the moment he realized Timothy was gay while at the mall.
“his sexuality, he didn't actually come out to me.”
The Coming Out Conversation
11:14 to 14:02
Timothy describes the significant moment he came out to his parents at Starbucks.
“I did start to notice some shifts in him.”
A Father's Journey of Acceptance and Growth
14:02 to 18:05
Listeners will explore a father's emotional journey as he navigates his son's coming out and the challenges it brings to his faith and identity.
“He was excited to show the world that you can be a Christian and be gay.”
Thankfulness for Transformation
18:05 to 18:57
The father reflects on the profound changes brought about by his son's coming out, emphasizing gratitude and personal growth.
“out and how we thought it was the end, but it was only the beginning.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01The Opinions podcast from New York Times Opinion, bringing you a mix of conversations and new ideas, featuring the voices of our writers and columnists. To me, the single most underestimated force in international relations is actually stupidity. Including Jamil Bowie, Tressie McMillan-Cottom, Michelle Goldberg, Thomas Friedman, and many more. Find The Opinions wherever you get your podcasts.
0:31This is The Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.
0:44My name is Bill White, and I'm an evangelical pastor in Long Beach, California. My name is Timothy White. I grew up in Long Beach, California in the early 2000s. my dad, Bill, was an evangelical pastor from the time that I was born. And before I was even born, my dad wrote a letter to my future wife. But he didn't know then, what we both know now, that I'm gay.
1:17April 1999. Dear daughter, our son Timothy is about to be born. God willing, in less than two months. And as I've been praying for Him, I've started praying for you. So I wanted to write you a letter to give you on your wedding day. Of course, I don't know you. I don't know your name. I don't know if you have even been born yet. As we've been praying for our son, we've also been praying for his future wife. I pray that you would love Jesus more than you love our son. even though we already love our Son more than the whole world. We look forward to meeting you with great love and affection and many prayers.
2:05Bill
2:12Our church was a standard, conservative, evangelical congregation where we believe that Jesus saves you from your sins, the Bible is the Word of God, that all people are made in God's image, all people are sinful, and we certainly believed that being gay was a sin and should be changed. When Timothy turned about eight years old, our church had gone through some learnings around manhood. And our head pastor at the time had a saying that all men are namby-pamby navel-gazers, and kind of this, that men are passive and need to step up and be leaders. And so, we read a bunch of books around the Christian men's movement.
3:10And so, I took upon myself to raise a Christian man. So, Timothy and I started on a tradition of doing these becoming a man events where we do long hikes and do hard things and have conversations about sex and hormones and marriage and all these things. The men's movement just had a lot of allure. It connected to me viscerally. And because of that, I wanted to raise my son to be a man. But Timothy did not fit that mold very well at all. He didn't play contact sports. He palled around with friends who were girls. And he was kind and relational and was not bro at all. My dad and I first talked about sexuality when I was young, maybe seven, eight, nine years old.
4:09He did the birds and the bees with me. He taught me about what it meant to be married and to love and cherish and protect your wife. And so we had a very open and honest relationship about growing up, about sexuality, and about sex. One that I think is probably sort of unusual for maybe some evangelical pastor's kids. and their dad. It meant that I always felt comfortable with him to bring up weird things or hard things. For me, there were two kinds of Christians. There were these people who said they were Christian, and they thought the Bible was kind of interesting, Jesus was a decent moral teacher, and homosexuality was just fine.
4:56And then there were real Christians who believed in the Bible as God's truth, who loved Jesus with all their heart, and they said homosexuality was a sin. And so for me, this was a life or death question because I was not about to give up my Jesus just for a few gay people. This was core to my existence as a human, at least how I saw it, how I lived it, and had been for decades.
5:25From my journal on May 25, 2013, when Timothy was 13 years old. On Wednesday, Timothy mentioned to me that he'd like to take another walk to Starbucks. I figured he had something pretty significant to share if he was initiating. When he brought up a conversation, I will remember the rest of my life. He said he was noticing how a lot of the guys had friends that they could be buddy-buddy with and mess around and do guy things with. He said his issue was he wanted to explore some things like horseplay and pranks that he might be able to do if he had a group of guy friends. We processed that for a while and talked about how he needed some space to explore things like that and that it was normal and healthy for a young man his age to do so.
6:15And he said, at one point, I wondered if I was gay. I shared that I had met a man earlier in the week who had said that he wondered the same thing at Timothy's age, and yet he turned out that he was straight and that he ended up marrying, etc. I was honored by Timothy's trust in me, and I was aware of your presence with us, empowering me not to react, not to recoil, and not to push, prod, or judge. Father, thank you for being with us. And yet I'm as sad as I've ever been. My heart is devastated. I told Katie last night that it feels like someone crushed my sternum and was pounding on my heart.
7:02Perhaps 20 years from now, I'll look back with disdain at these feelings, and surely others would if they knew. But I will not disguise to you what is going on in my heart and soul and mind. I think deep down, I hate homosexuality. I hate it more than just about anything else in the world. I hate it because it seems sometimes to be stronger than you, God. Yes, that's what I said. It seems that way. I'm sure there's plenty of good in the gay community, but my experience tells me otherwise. I see the isolation, the craving, the insecurity. Father, you have to spare Timothy from that. You have to.
7:58I remember when I wrote that entry, I was crying. Because for me, my world was ending. All the gay people I had known, every one of them, had left the faith. And there's nothing more important to me than my faith. And so to see my son sort of becoming gay in front of my eyes, it was the worst thing I could imagine. You know, it's hard to hear your parent say that seeing you act or behave or become something is the hardest thing that they could have imagined or the hardest thing that they could have to deal with. It's sad. But I have this split reaction because it's also almost bizarre or impressive to me to think about my dad saying, watching my son develop and grow into something that I am scared of is the hardest thing that I could possibly imagine, while at the same time reflecting on those years.
9:13And sure, we got in fights and we had conflict and I was a stupid teenager and he was occasionally overbearing, but I also just felt so much love from him at that time, and it did not feel like he was going through the hardest thing he could have ever gone through. In that conversation when Timothy was 13 years old and shared with me that he was questioning his sexuality, he didn't actually come out to me. That would be almost two years later. but it broke something inside of me because I started to realize my son is gay. And at virtually the same time, I think it was the same week even, he and I went to the mall, to the Apple store to get some new gadget.
10:04And as we walk out of the Apple store, there in the mall are these massive two ads. Huge. 20 feet tall. Essentially a naked man and a naked woman. I mean, they were wearing something like whatever they were advertising. And I just found myself in my little brain thinking, oh, be faithful to your wife. Don't look at that woman. Don't look at that woman. Your wife is beautiful. Your wife is beautiful. And I'm looking down. And I catch a glance at Timothy out of the side of my eye. And my 13-year-old boy is staring up as if in worship and awe, not looking at the woman, but looking at the man. And that's the moment I knew.
11:01and gave me time, which was a real gift, to process everything before he eventually did come out to me.
11:13In the month leading up to me coming out to him when I was 15, I did start to notice some shifts in him. I started noticing him opening up conversations around sexuality in a slightly more open-ended way. I noticed my dad leaving books around the house that were interrogating the questions of LGBTQ inclusion and the church and theology. And so I knew that the conversations were happening. He mentioned that he was thinking about these things. And so when I was thinking about coming out to him, I wasn't worried that he was going to say, say, you know, God hates you or, you know, you can never be who you are or, you know, you have to change.
12:04So I had asked them a few days before if they wanted to go to Starbucks. This was often where my dad and I had a lot of our most serious conversations. You know, I was a kid in Southern California in the 2010s. And so important things happened at Starbucks. And when we showed up there, my heart was racing. My mind was racing the whole time. I knew that after this conversation, that things were going to be different, but I was also excited because I was ready to start the process of, of growth and of full self-realization. Um, so I knew things wouldn't be the same and I was a little afraid of that, but I was also excited.
12:50My journal from March 14, 2015, when Timothy was 15 years old. Last Sunday, Timothy asked if he could go to Starbucks with me and Katie to talk about something. I knew. I asked Katie if she was prepared for what we were going to hear. Timothy got a tiramisu frappuccino, and we sat around for a minute, and then he said, you're probably wondering why I brought you here today. I've been thinking a lot lately and prayed about it. There's been an internal thing going on, and I'm pretty solid on it, and I want to let you guys know first. I'm pretty sure I've decided I'm gay. I told him I loved him. He said he'd never doubted that.
13:40And then we proceeded to talk for 45 minutes about how he's doing, what he's been thinking, how he came to his conclusions, and his plan for coming out to family and friends and the world. That was one of the finest conversations I've had in my life. Father, thank you for it. Thank you for Timothy's courage in speaking to us. He was excited to show the world that you can be a Christian and be gay. He clearly said he wants his identity and God to come first, which was music to my ears. As I reflect on that conversation, I feel hopeful, really for the first time, that you might be working all things together for good and actually wanting to expand your kingdom through Timothy.
14:29He certainly thinks so. And I feel a lot of serenity, trusting that you are at work. I suppose I also feel some real concern, some anxiety for Timothy that he's going to face judgment and ridicule both from the right and the left, that he'll face a lot of pressure to conform one way or the other. And I feel real concern for myself. I know that's selfish, and I don't want to make any of this about me, but the heat will be turned up on me in a huge way. When he comes out, everyone is going to want a piece of me. They're going to seek, perhaps inadvertently, but no less potently, to divide our little church.
15:11Father, would you help me?
15:17I had done all of this work to get to the point of realizing I love my son, and I'm going to stand with him come hell or high water. and I was at peace. The difficulty became after that where I realized I still needed to sort through theology. I still needed to figure out what am I going to do as a church. People were leaving in droves. People were cussing me out from the left and from the right. People were calling for my ordination to be suspended, trying to defrock me. I was going to lose the church. which I was trying to figure out my calling, my job, my relationship with God. Like, everything was coming apart.
16:05It was ugly for a long time. It was so ugly. It was ugly internally just for me as I tried to sort through the changes in a system of seeing the world that was so clean, clear, compact, certain. and to expose that to love. Love is not clean and clear, compact, or certain. It is messy and it's awesome, but it is not easy. My relationship with my dad changed when I came out because even at that time, it strengthened something between us because I knew that he was willing to fight for me and fight for me in an arena both personal, spiritual, professional, financial. He had to give up a lot to fight for me.
16:59When my son came out, I lost everything. I lost my sense of myself. So yes, it was terribly unnerving. And yes, it was wonderfully freeing to have lost that rigid certainty, that closed system of belief and to have a more open-ended faith that centered on the love of Jesus. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. And also, before that, the worst. It's really something when your parent or your dad can have the worst thing possible happen to them, and then it becomes the best thing possible in their life. You know, what a transformation. And I think there's God in that.
17:56From my personal journal, January 26, 2019, when Timothy is 19 years old. As Katie prayed last night, she thanked you for the remarkable gift of Timothy coming out and how we thought it was the end, but it was only the beginning. of a full, true, vibrant life in Christ. Father, thank you that you created our son, Gay. Forgive me for how poorly I received that gift.
18:56If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur, Vishak Adarba, Christina Samulewski, and Jillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin and Alison Bruzek. Engineering, mixing, and original music by Isaac Jones, Sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Saburo, and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Amin Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker, and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulewski. The director of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser. Thank you.
From the publisher
It was the worst thing that ever happened to Bill White — and then it became the best.
Changing your mind can be a difficult thing to do, especially when it also means reconsidering the foundation of your faith. For Evangelical Pastor Bill White, that’s what happened when his 15-year-old son Timothy came out as gay to him at Starbucks. On this episode of “The Opinions,” Bill reads from his journal documenting the personal transformation that led him to thank God for making his son gay.
Thoughts? Email us at theopinions@nytimes.com.
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