Gen Z Tech Addiction Crisis with Oprah and Adam Alter

13:03Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:it's free, a judge-free zone as well. You've done extensive research on games. And what do you want to say about this?

13:11Adam Alter:It's very, very hard to resist. You know, you basically think of it as you're going fishing for people's attention. And if you're, you've got the hook and the line, and you're basically trying to build as many lures onto the line as you can. and when you're designing a product like this, you can't do it in a way that's foolproof where you know for sure it's going to succeed, but you can build in as many of these hooks as you can, things like variable reward, which is what happens when you play a slot machine or the goals that you get for passing a level or the social connection you get with a lot of these games because they involve other people.

13:42Adam Alter:And so when you build all of these features into the game, you raise the chance that the game's going to be hard to resist. And so this is a very common story. It is very, very difficult to stop playing once you begin. Well, Dr.

13:54Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Rehier, we're not going back in time. I mean, young adults are going to have smartphones. So what are parents supposed to do?

14:02Adam Alter:So, Amir, you're in what I would call an echo chamber, right? So an echo chamber is when we continuously microdose on a certain type of content so that the behavior or the belief becomes normalized for us. And echo chambers are playing out across this country, whether it's around politics, whether it's around niche ideas, or whether it's around behaviors online. So what do we do about that? How do we have these conversations? What I tend to say is if someone in your life is in an echo chamber, instead of debating them on the minutiae of that echo chamber in your home or at the Thanksgiving table with uncle such and such who believes this, step away from the actual detail and look at the technological processes at play together.

14:57Adam Alter:Look at the technology that is feeding this addiction, that is feeding this belief, and then together decide that you want to push back against it because you have the power to do that. And then we break open -

15:10Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:How are you going to do that when that's not what he wants to do? How are you going to do that?

15:14Adam Alter:Because we start to talk about the addictive quality of these technological processes and make it us against that technology. Instead of us being against each other, we are all in this together. Thank you.

15:31Oprah Winfrey:I do have a question. I remember you stated that they're considered products and not consumers.

15:38Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Yeah.

15:38Oprah Winfrey:And I was telling him about and wanted to share the story. Whoever comes up and designed these games are genius. Because at one point we spent all of our money on PlayStations. They made it so now convenient to where now he's playing on a PC. So it's easy access now. We're not spending this much money. So that's my thing. They're making it even more accessible for kids. Dr.

16:10Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Briesing, there is a treatment though for this, right?

16:12Adam Alter:There are treatments for behavioral addictions.

16:13Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:You actually are treating kids who are going through this.

16:16Adam Alter:Yeah, so there are treatments for behavioral addictions. The first treatment is looking at psychotherapies, things like cognitive behavioral therapy. And in the case of Amir, you may want to think about motivational interviewing. Basically, it's a type of therapy that meets people where they're at, thinks about what your motivation might be to change this behavior, and works you towards coming up with a plan to get you ready, willing, and able to take action.

16:39Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:But isn't it like every addiction, the person has to be willing themselves, not just your parents or not just your person in school or not just that person has to say, I have a problem and I want to now fix this, right?

16:54Adam Alter:Absolutely. And so at this point, Amir, you'd have to assess where your motivation is at to get to a place where you do exactly what Ms. Winfrey just said, which is that I'm ready to make a change and then start implementing a plan to do so. The other thing to think about is that there are medications, off-label medications, that have been effective in alcohol use disorders and for opioid use disorders that work in certain kinds of behavioral addiction like naltrexone. And then in addition to that, addictions tend to have common co-occurring psychiatric diagnoses, and it makes sense to get an evaluation to see if you might struggle from depression.

17:31Adam Alter:Some of the symptoms that you're describing have a lot of overlap with that. Anxiety disorders like social phobia or generalized anxiety can sometimes overlap with addictions in addition to other impulse control disorders, ADHD, psychotic disorders. So getting evaluated for that and getting treatment can actually help with the behavioral addiction if there's a component of that to it.

17:52Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:That's a mouthful.

17:54Oprah Winfrey:Sorry.

17:55Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:I know, because he's going, I'm not psychotic. He might not be, no. Yeah.

18:00Adam Alter:But some people are. Yeah, yeah. And some people are.

18:02Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:I hear you. I hear that. Thank you for listening. Next, we hear from a young wife and mother who says her husband's addiction to online adult content has reached a breaking point and is threatening their marriage. Welcome back to the Oprah podcast. Thank you for joining me for this timely conversation about how addiction to gaming and online adult content and other tech is destroying the lives of millions of teens and young adults. Maddie and Kyle are married, and they're the parents of two young children. They wanted to share their story with us in the hope that it will help some of you who are watching or listening.

18:40Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:So let's first watch a short video, a few clips from their social media. You'll hear them use the word corn instead of the real word for these videos so it won't be flagged by the platform and taken down. So let's take a look.

18:55Oprah Winfrey:I was exposed to corn at the age of eight and have struggled with an addiction for the past 20 years. I'm married to a corn addict. He has struggled since he was eight years old. I make it like my mission to watch his every move, which is so draining. When we were first married, I was super confused, like why he didn't want to be intimate all the time. I was like, don't guys want to like do it all the time? For the longest time in my addiction, I felt alone. I felt ashamed keeping it a secret from family, friends, loved ones, my spouse. My heart breaks for younger Maddie years ago that thought that I wasn't enough.

19:40Oprah Winfrey:Addiction is a super tricky subject, and I'm still learning more about it, but I promise you it has nothing to do with you. I want to share my story with others so they don't feel alone in this.

19:59Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Maddie and Kyle, thank you for being here. I know this is a hard thing to talk about, and I applaud your courage in being willing to speak about it, because I hear this is really serious for a lot of people, like millions and millions of guys throughout the country and the world. And what was surprising to me, I remember doing shows about this years ago when I was doing a daily show. What's surprising to me is that you became addicted or exposed so young. So what was going on that you were eight years old and you come across the corn? Yeah.

20:39Oprah Winfrey:So, yeah, I got exposed to it when I was eight. It was on my family's computer. My stepdad at the time had it on there. And I just came across it. And it drew me to it. So I just kept going back and looking at it.

20:57Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:And it became your go-to for everything.

20:59Oprah Winfrey:Yeah, like unintentionally. My mom was diagnosed with leukemia when I was really young. And just got really sick there for a while. And so unbeknownst to me, I was turning to it to cover up my fear, my anxiety. I felt that I needed to be the old. I was the older sibling, so I had to be strong for my younger siblings. And so I wasn't expressing my fear with that. So I was just turning to a corn for that release.

21:26Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Yeah. Yeah. And so when you met Maddie, you all ended up getting married. Did you ever tell her that you had this as an issue?

21:36Oprah Winfrey:In the beginning when we were dating, I had mentioned, well, she asked if I had an issue with it. And I said, yeah, I viewed it in the past, but I have it under control now. So I was lying to her.

21:47Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:You were lying. Yeah, you were lying. When did you realize, Maddie, that it was an addiction and not what people always say about this, that all men watch it.

21:57Oprah Winfrey:Yeah, I hate when people say that because, like, even if he was just watching it sometimes in our marriage, I wouldn't be okay with that. But a month in, I found stuff on his phone, and I, like, broke down. I was like, what is this? And that's when he broke down and was like, I have a problem. And so I definitely felt blindsided because we had talked about it before. and so it was kind of shocking to me, but that's when I found out I was like a month in.

22:27Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:So you were trying to hide it from her?

22:30Oprah Winfrey:Yeah, I was viewing it behind her back and just not telling her.

22:35Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:So Maddie, you've said that you're not sure your marriage will survive this. Why? What do you want to say to the partners and to the family members of people who are struggling with this like you are?

22:46Oprah Winfrey:Yeah, there's been many times that I felt that we can't make it through because the lies and like the betrayal that come from finding out he was lying. But I do know lots of the time he was in denial himself and didn't want to admit that it was a bigger issue. So there is hope, I would say, for the partners of addicts going through this to know that as much as this addiction makes it feel like it is your problem, like it is because you're not enough, it is because you're not a certain way, that is not the case. It took me so many years to learn that.

23:24Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:How long have you all been married? We've been married six and a half years.

23:27Oprah Winfrey:So I would say like the last year is when I finally realized that like this addiction is so much deeper. It's something that he's used as an unhealthy coping mechanism since he was eight years old. Like it started long before he knew me. And I'm like, how many times do I try to break a bad habit and I have to start over? I mean, this is an addiction. So when you step back and look at why they're using that to cope, it makes it easier to have compassion and understand that you are enough. And this is something that you guys can get through together as long as he's willing and wants to.

24:01Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:And you are willing. Oh, absolutely. He is now. He is now.

24:06Oprah Winfrey:I will say you were like, you can't force an addict. The first couple of years I was like, you're doing this, you know, and it took, I don't know, a couple of years for him to really want to do it himself.

24:16Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:And why is that? Why is that, Kyle? Because you thought you weren't that bad. You're like a mirror. Like you're like, you've got it under control.

24:24Oprah Winfrey:Yeah. I mean, I was in denial about it. And then there's still that, as far as the addict aspect of it, like I wanted it still. I wanted to have that. And, you know, you give up so much control to an addiction and you want as much control over other things as possible. So your free will or your choice on that is kind of what was the driving force for a while that that kept me from being in recovery.

24:47Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:I'm wondering, is AI gonna make this worse?

24:50Adam Alter:I think so. I think it's gonna do two things that are damaging. One is you don't need actors because you have AI. And so it's a bottomless pool of information that you have at your disposal. And so there's just more content available. The other thing is AI is very good at learning what you like and what's interesting to you and making things that are tailored to your preferences. So I think it's gonna be weaponized in that way through AI. And that's, I think, a very big concern.

25:15Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Oh, yeah. I remember doing a special, and I was talking to Bill Gates about this, and to Sam Altman. I think, I mean, people are going to be falling in love with their AI. Yeah, they are. They are. They're going to want to marry them. They're going to want to fall in love with them. They're going to be buying them presents and all that stuff. It's going to get bad. I think so. And you think it's going to get bad.

25:38Adam Alter:I do, yeah.

25:39Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:And you think it's going to get bad. It already is bad. It's going to get worse. So I want to bring Connor McLaren and Alex Slater into this conversation. They are members of Gen Z who co-founded Quitter, Q-U-I-T-T-R. It's a popular app designed to help men break free from this addiction. So Alex, what inspired you to take this on?

26:05Oprah Winfrey:I'll say me and all my friends struggled with it and no one was really open about talking about it. Then it was a bunch of YouTubers that sparked this new movement called self-improvement. Quitting porn was a part of that. Gen Z were significantly underserved, so I bailed out for it.

26:22Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Right. So you started it for yourself originally? Sure, yeah. Yeah. Because you were addicted to...

26:29Oprah Winfrey:I wouldn't say addicted, but I definitely wanted to cut it out. And... yeah. As much control as I thought I had, I didn't.

26:37Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Yeah.

26:38Oprah Winfrey:So I built a better solution. Yeah.

26:40Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:And so when you all got together and decided you were going to create this app, yeah. And what does the app actually do?

26:49Oprah Winfrey:So we set out to build an app that makes it cool and fun to stop watching adult content. And so we built a gamified accountability platform and we wanted to provide users with the most tools and resources to help them get to the finish line. When it comes to the features, you get on the platform, you set a commitment, you actually paid for the platform, so you have an intent to quit. We gamify through streaks, education, resources, and most importantly, we have a community and environment where you're not shamed

27:22Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:when you're vulnerable and you're supported.

27:25Oprah Winfrey:Yeah, that's the most important part.

27:27Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Yeah, because I know you guys want to make it clear that you're not psychologists, you're not scientists, you're not professors, you're not doctors, but you said it doesn't matter that you've created a tool, this quitter, that actually works. And how do you know it works?

27:43Oprah Winfrey:Because we have like 25 ,000 five-star reviews on the App Store. We have a million downloads. We have people coming up to us in person saying we've changed their life. And they're like three months clean because of the platform. And we have hundreds, thousands of community posts a day, people saying, wow, I'm so grateful to be here.

28:01Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Is it just for people addicted to adult content or is it also for people addicted to gaming or people who can't

28:08Oprah Winfrey:put their phones down it's just adult content it's just adult content i wouldn't say addicted

28:12Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:it's just anyone that wants to stop what is the process how long does it take usually like 90

28:17Oprah Winfrey:days yeah 90 days and this is from community posts users talking out publicly on the platform and they get clarity after 90 days that's when they kind of see the light and then users actually we tend to stay on to encourage other users. Because we basically made it as cheap as possible. Yeah. That's the dopamine reset. Yeah. Pretty much what you guys are talking about. That's how you reset the baseline and no longer feel impulsive to watch it.

28:44Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Have you heard about this? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know about it? Have you tried it?

28:49Oprah Winfrey:No, I haven't tried this. I've used other apps similar, like not so much similar to that, but other apps to help quit, to just hold myself accountable. And is it working? Yes, but I definitely, I think in the beginning of my journey, it would have been really nice to know about this app and to use it. About Quitter? Yeah. Join us. Yeah.

29:12Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:So, Dr. Breesing, how is this having a far-reaching, much deeper impact than other behavioral addictions or people who just can't quit, okay?

29:24Adam Alter:So, there have been some concerning trends, actually, in terms of sexual behavior and sexual health surveys taken of college-age women who are reporting at increasing rates that they're experiencing what you call sexual asphyxiation or being choked by their sexual partners at an increasing rate. The majority, actually, of college-age women in one of these surveys reported being recently choked by a sexual partner. And the researchers, while... This is because of... What they think is happening is that there is increasing exposure to this type of content on adult content websites. And as a consequence of that, like teenagers and young people are actually learning about sexual behavior through adult content websites.

30:11Adam Alter:And then experimenting with it in their own relationships.

30:15Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Oh, and so therefore there's an increase in choking and all this. Because as we were saying earlier, that if you start when you're eight years old, by the time you get to be Kyle's age, you need more intense, more intense things to happen in order for the dopamine hit.

30:32Adam Alter:And so conventional human behavior that would be present on that content is not as stimulating. And so people tend to seek out more provocative content or more extreme content that can frequently tap into some of the things Dr. Caitlin was saying, which is aggression and at times even violence.

30:51Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Wow, we're in trouble. I know you have something to say about this, Dr. Brigier.

30:55Adam Alter:Yeah, I mean, I would, I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Breezy. we are seeing that this is being used as an educational resource. Okay, pornography increasingly. And what I think is really important to point out.

31:11Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:An educational resource for whom?

31:13Adam Alter:For young people about how to have sex. Okay, so this is not a rolled up playboy under the bed from the 90s. This is much more potent. This is fast paced, unfortunately, oftentimes violent. the short form content that people are consuming at high, high dosages. And that is normalizing this type, this, this type of behavior. And so I think we need to be, it's really uncomfortable to talk about, but I think we do need to be honest about what's going on here. I think, unfortunately, we need to talk to the young people in our lives. I like to use They're not going to tell us They're going to do like Kyle I like to use the analogy of a Marvel film Okay I like to say that just like a superhero film where they shoot lasers out of their eyes Yeah This is a performance This is not reflective of most normative healthy consensual relationships and it's not what is expected of you as a woman or a man to do.

32:27Adam Alter:And I think we need to be really open about the fact that this is the type of content that is out there and that we should not be using it as a way to inform the way we engage with the people we love.

32:40Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:I think the corn's already out of the bag.

32:43Adam Alter:Yeah, absolutely.

32:45Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:I think the corn's already out of the bag. I don't know how you're going to pull that back now.

32:51Adam Alter:Absolutely. But if we know that in this country, by the age of 13, half of kids will have consumed often violent pornography. Yeah. Okay. We know that.

33:02Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Adult content.

33:02Adam Alter:Sorry.

33:03Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Adult.

33:04Adam Alter:Pornography.

33:04Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Yeah.

33:06Adam Alter:And if we know that, we then have to unfortunately have a more complex conversation than the ones our parents had to have with us.

33:15Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Yeah. I'm sorry to say. This is very concerning. I see you shaking your head because you see the guys. Yeah.

33:20Oprah Winfrey:So this is actually amazing that you said that because Alex and I have restructured Quitter's mission on how do we change culture? How do you make these young men look up to people that don't watch porn? How do you have NBA stars and celebrities talk about this publicly that they don't watch porn? It's changed their life. And on top of that, we're finding more and more that a significant amount of our downloads are under 18-year-olds. And so, but they're afraid. Or under 18. And so how do you get them? They want it themselves. And when we're finding out they don't have credit cards or they don't want to use their parents' credit cards because of the shame.

33:55Oprah Winfrey:And so how do you coach parents to talk about it with their kids in an open way so it's okay and so they're not, by the time they're Kyle's age, potentially ruining a relationship? Yeah.

34:06Adam Alter:That's right.

34:07Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:I am so glad that you joined us here on the Oprah podcast. We will be right back with more of this critical conversation about the devastating impact that tech addiction is having on the mental health and well-being of an entire generation. We're back with more of my conversation about tech addiction with leading experts and some Gen Zers. Maddie I want to go back to you because you said something earlier about not blaming yourself and even in the video you were saying you wanted to say to everybody to know that if this is happening in your life or going on in your life it really has nothing to do with you did you blame yourself in the beginning did you think I'm not whatever enough um yeah I did blame myself I thought I

34:52Oprah Winfrey:I wasn't fit enough, hot enough, didn't put out enough. But even like in our beginning of our marriage, like I would try to be intimate with him, but he just wasn't interested because he had viewed stuff earlier that day. So, you know, but like it's hard not to take that personal. Yeah. So that's why it took me so long to learn more about addiction and then realize it's really not about me. But it's so much easier said than done.

35:17Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:And no way can you compare to whatever is on those adult videos. Yes.

35:21Oprah Winfrey:There's no way. But something that I like, he's viewed this since he was eight years old. But I tell myself, like, he chose to marry me. He didn't have to marry me. I didn't force him to marry me. Like, he still wanted to marry me. So I remind myself that, like, I am enough. And that's a totally different issue.

35:37Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Yeah. You remind yourself. Do you remind? He reminds me, yes. And he reminds you too? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Yes. Because you want this to work out.

35:45Oprah Winfrey:Yes, absolutely.

35:46Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:You do. You want it to work out.

35:48Oprah Winfrey:Yeah, absolutely. So that's why I'm doing what I'm doing to put it behind me and not view pornography.

35:55Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:And are you, it doesn't make sense to be upset, the fact that you were exposed at such a young age, but you understand what happened to you, right?

36:02Oprah Winfrey:Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think in the beginning I had a little grudge towards my stepdad, but I'm like, you know, I was going to come across it eventually. It just so happened to be at that time. And so I have no hard feelings towards it. But, you know, in the end, it was my choice to constantly go back and view it. Yeah.

36:21Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:What would you say to somebody who's going through what you have been through and continue to go through now? Knowing what you know. Yeah.

36:30Oprah Winfrey:The hard part is, like, you feel shame with viewing this stuff. Just know that you're not alone and that shame is what keeps you in your addiction. And so...

36:41Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:And you feel shame because you are married? Or would you feel shame if you weren't married?

36:44Oprah Winfrey:Viewing it, I mean, I felt it before I was ever dating anyone. I always felt ashamed viewing this stuff. So if you can just set that aside and know that there's other people out there that are going through this. Millions. And there are resources to hold on to that because it's possible to overcome this and it doesn't need to control your life and have the control over you that it has at this moment.

37:06Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:What are the guys who've gone through this with you? I assume they're mostly guys. What do the guys who've gone through this with you say after they have been able to better themselves. They're having better relationships with people.

37:20Oprah Winfrey:They can communicate better. Loads of things. I think a lot of it too is we see that a lot of men coming on the platform don't develop relationships with women. They don't try to go on dates. They don't try to talk to them. And so we realize that once they quit, they're like, well, how do I even talk to a girl at a bar or like out to get coffee? Like, what do I say? This and that. What do I do? Like, how do you go in for your first kiss? X, Y, and Z. and it's like they don't even have the self-confidence. But then after they see the light, they start developing self-confidence. They hit the gym, they diet.

37:50Oprah Winfrey:And it's that whole self-development.

37:51Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Well, that's what Jonathan Haidt says in his book, The Anxious Generation, that there is a whole generation of young men. Are you all aware of this, young men? That there is a whole generation of young, young men who have not been socialized to actually have a conversation, ask somebody out on a date, do that. Have you experienced that?

38:10Adam Alter:Absolutely. Yeah, that's exactly right. that there's this sort of critical period where you learn how to do all these things. And if you put technology between you and the human beings that you're supposed to be interacting with, you never really develop those skills and that critical period passes. And then it becomes very hard to be, especially a young man, sort of navigating the world of trying to figure out how you talk to potential partners.

38:33Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Yes, especially if you started like Kyle at eight, it's a wonder you got married, knew how to even ask her. Yes. Yeah, yeah. It's because it's easier to just not speak to people.

38:46Oprah Winfrey:That's uncomfortable. But because we have phones now, we can get the same amount of dopamine by scrolling, by texting. They just do that instead.

38:54Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Yeah. I admire you for creating this for yourself and then being able to take what was helpful to you and to use it to serve the world. Congratulations to you all for doing it. Kvita. Kvita. We didn't even have time to get into Gen Z and online gambling, which I know is a growing problem. Dr. Breezing, before we go, can we have a final word from you?

39:18Adam Alter:I think that when you're struggling with addiction, it can be incredibly isolating. You can feel very lonely. It has a huge impact on families, on couples. So I would say like big problems require a village, get help, talk to people, talk to your friends, look into having a specialist maybe intervene and provide some guidance.

39:39Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Thank you. Thank you all for being here today. Adam, you get the last word. What should we be doing now? What should companies be doing?

39:47Adam Alter:I think companies need to be forced to do the right thing. I think just hoping they'll do the right thing is hoping for a lot. But the best thing they can do is to take a leaf out of the book of companies that have made very successful products in the past using a different approach. One example of this that I've always found very interesting is Shigeru Miyamoto, who was the main developer at Nintendo of some of the best-selling games of all time, used to give the games to his friends and he would just say, I knew a game was good, worth pursuing and worth making if they enjoyed it, if they got value out of it and it actually made their lives better, instead of just measuring how much time people spent on the device or on the game.

40:25Adam Alter:So I think the key metrics have to change from how much welfare do you bring into the world rather than how many minutes of your time can I extract day to day. And that's the way a lot of these companies operate today. And that's the problem.

40:37Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:Adam Alter's book, Irresistible, is available wherever books are sold. And Dr. Caitlin Regehr's new book, Smartphone Nation, will be released on October 28th. You can pre-order that book now. Thank you for being vulnerable enough, open enough, willing enough, courageous enough to share your stories with us here today. Thank you so much for coming this way. As always, thank you to our listeners and this audience for being with us. I'll see you next week. Go well, everybody.

41:10Dr. Kaitlyn Regehr:You can subscribe to The Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.